S03.E04: Unbreak-Able

[radishcake]

 

Emma and Norman spend a day away from the motel; Romero looks into two strange deaths in White Pine Bay; Norma returns to school; Caleb and Dylan's hidden secrets unravel.

 

[BatmanBeatles]

Ooo, I hope Norman finds out that Dylan had been hanging around Caleb. Anything to inject life into that side plot.

[editorgrrl]

Norma returns to school.

I'm really worried that Norma thinks she and Professor James Finnegan (played by Joshua Leonard from The Blair Witch Project) "met cute." And he's her type—he looks like Caleb and Deputy Zack Shelby (Mike Vogel).

[Avaleigh]

I'm curious about which of Caleb and Dylan's secrets unravel. 

 

My first thought was that Norma would find out that Caleb was back but now I'm wondering if this might not indirectly have something to do with Emma. IMO there's a plot related reason why Norman told her what happened with Caleb and Norma and I feel like Emma might be the one to start finding things out and putting the pieces together. I'm still basically waiting for the other shoe to drop with regard to this storyline. 

[editorgrrl]

I'm curious about which of Caleb and Dylan's secrets unravel.

My first thought was that Norma would find out that Caleb was back but now I'm wondering if this might not indirectly have something to do with Emma. IMO there's a plot related reason why Norman told her what happened with Caleb and Norma.

I thought Emma quit the motel because she felt left out of things, so Norman told her about Dylan's uncle-dad to make her stay.

Maybe Gunner learns that Caleb is more than just Dylan's father. Either directly from Emma, or because he heard Dylan refer to Caleb as his uncle when talking to Emma.

Edited March 29, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Primetimer]

Norma's new collusion with Dylan -- and his eagerness to have his mother treat him with maternal affection -- really sets Norman's teeth and/or his multiple personalities on edge.

Read the story

[Garnett7]

I know it's uncool of Dylan to be hanging out with Caleb but I felt bad for the guy tonight. Norman won't rat him out because he's "protecting" Norma but rather because of his jealousy and obsession about keeping her to himself. Like I said, I feel bad for Dylan. He wants to be loved by his mother but he always wants to sort Caleb out and at least try to understand how and why he came to be.

 

Norman was just super creepy with his making out with Emma just to get his mother's attention. He's acting like a jilted lover. Emma and Dylan need to run far away from this eff'ed up family and town.

 

Love Romero. I'm glad he's getting more screentime lately.

[turbogirlnyc]

I felt bad for Dylan, too. He was in a tough spot with the Caleb situation but I doubt Norma will be understanding.

I hope the relationship between the psych teacher & Norma stays friendly. I can't see them romantically involved.

Poor Emma. I'm glad she walked out on Norman but now I'm scared for her safety.

[thuganomics85]

Damn, I praise Vera Farmiga and Freddie Highmore all the time, that I really keep forgetting that Max Thieriot is just as good.  Dylan's pleading at the end just killed me.  Yes, this whole situation is disturbing as hell and Dylan really should probably just stay away from Caleb I suspect, but I can see why he keeps trying to have some kind of relationship with him.  And, I think he really does love Norma and is happy they are on better terms.  But, now it's very possible Norman is going to blow it all up to hell.  Damn, sucks to be Dylan.

 

Norman really is scaring me now.  It really feels like he is using Emma to make Norma get mad, and get attention.  But, nope, with him, it's not typical teenage rebellion.  It really is coming off, well creepy.  Like a love triangle, only one of them is his mother.  Which, ew.  And, now he's even jealous of Norma and Dylan actually bonding.  At this point, I want both Dylan and Emma to back their bags, and flee, because Norman is this close to fully boarding the Crazy Train.

 

Like seeing more of Romero, but I do hope this murder mystery picks up.  And, I don't care: I know Kevin Rahm's character is named Bob, but I'm still just going to think of him as Ted from Mad Men.

 

Honestly, I could barely pay attention to Norma and the psych teacher, because I was too busy admiring the lounge.  If that was actually on campus, this that has to be one of the best looking community colleges ever!  Why couldn't my community college been that good?!

[Irritable]

Damn, I praise Vera Farmiga and Freddie Highmore all the time, that I really keep forgetting that Max Thieriot is just as good.

 

 

Me, too.  He can break my heart like a pro, sometimes with almost imperceptible shifts in expression, and I feel that he doesn't necessarily get the recognition of talent he deserves. 

 

I love the way the writers keep the icky rolling in the dialog, like when Norma said to Norman, "I'm going to go get out of these clothes" instead of "I'm going to change clothes" like a mother would normally say to her son.  Always tweaking little things to ramp the Ew Factor up just a little higher.

[Guest]

I watch Mad Men and still I always kind of think of Rahm as Lee from Desperate Housewives.

[bannana]

I loved Dylan in this episode, but felt that there were many anvils crashing down on him, and I fear for his safety.  Norman is jealous of him and this cannot end well. 

 

Norma and Dylan should just have told Norman that they were talking about the break in at the motel, but regardless, Norman was creepy beyond belief tonight and I also want Emma to get away, but I suspect she won't.

 

That fall that Caleb took was really bizarre, and well done, Show.

[Irritable]

Yes!  How DID they do that fall of Caleb's shot from above?  It was CRAZY and made me curl up in a whining ball.

[sunshine2288]

When Caleb was up there working I kept thinking I bet he'll fall and then Dylan will feel even more sorry for him, then bam, down goes creep.

[turbogirlnyc]

That fall that Caleb took was really bizarre, and well done, Show.

Yes! Bizarre is the perfect word to describe it.

[Bec]

It's sad how much Dylan cares for Norman and how little Norman cares for his brother in return. I wanted to punch Norman in his smug little face when he was smirking about telling mother Dylan betrayed her. Ruining his brother's relationship with his mother makes him happy. After all the times Dylan had his back! Norman is a mean little shit.

 

Still, it was nice to have Dylan interacting with Norma and Norman for a change. Is this all we get? Are they going to stop speaking to each other again? Good grief.

 

I kind of wondered if Caleb fell on purpose to make Dylan feel bad. But then nah, he didn't want to end up at the hospital... right? He's shady as hell regardless. I was rolling by eyes at his woe-is-me-I'm-a-misunderstood-rapist sob story. I've got nothing but the world's smallest violin for this guy.

 

Any guesses on what Caleb is wanted for? Is this a recent development or has he been on the run from the law since before he even showed up on the show? Maybe he's been going around stalking and raping more women besides Norma and deluding himself into thinking that is just because he loves them sooo much.

[whyjen8]

Way to crank up the ick factor show.  You know what?  After watching this sexual dysfunction that is mother/son I'm surprised Norman didn't turn out worse.  I mean yeah, he killed women but his relationship with Norma could have easily led him to become Patrick Bateman level of psycho.  

 

Caleb may be wanted for sexual related crimes but I'm betting on drugs.  Going through life in love with your sister after fathering her child through rape would probably require some self medication. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by whyjen8

[JenE4]

[Max as Dylan] can break my heart like a pro, sometimes with almost imperceptible shifts in expression, and I feel that he doesn't necessarily get the recognition of talent he deserves. 

 

Absolutely! If last week was Freddie's Emmy reel and the week before was Vera's, this week's was Max's. I, too, just felt my heart breaking when he would just give that wounded look--this poor little boy inside who just wants a parent who loves him. Heart-wrenching!

 

There was a lot of character development this episode! In addition to feeling how desperately Dylan just wants to be loved--despite him acting like he wanted nothing to do with Norma or Caleb for most of the series--I feel like every character was pushed more into their ultimate roles.

 

Norman is just losing it altogether--asking right in front of the police whether he killed Annika and acting like a jealous, jilted loved over Norma, firmly trying to put Norma in her place over "his" house and likewise acting like Dylan was trying to take his place as the husband/father of the family.

 

Norma was acting in her role of pushing everyone to their limits--assuming the picnic was for her (representing her place as Norman's true love) while also (to Norman) trying to break up Emma and Norman by telling him he can't be physical with her; meanwhile (again, to Norman) pushing Norman out of the #1 spot and replacing him with Dylan as her confidante. And, of course, Norma's manipulation has Dylan and Romero scrambling again with this whole flashdrive thing, and now she's roped the professor into her crazy shennanigans! I was actually worried for the kid in the coffee shop! Thank goodness for him he couldn't help and she moved on! But it's like everyone in her realm falls for her manipulative lies. Even though she's always been like this, I think this episode really highlighted that it goes well beyond Norman and everyone close to her is affected by her. So by the time Caleb was saying how he couldn't help falling in love with her and was heartbroken when she said it had to end, I actually, for the first time, believed him. Maybe Norma wasn't the "victim" there--maybe Caleb was the one who was victimized by Norma. And, damn, that's some strong characterization to make me feel that way because normally I would never even dream of villainizing the victim in a situation like this, but with how Norma is and Caleb's heart-breaking confession, I felt that Norma has been manipulating people since she was a child.

 

Romero is an interesting barometer on Norma because just when you feel like he's completely suckered by her and would do anything to protect her and her kids, that police instinct kicks in that something isn't quite right with her. I like how the writers are really highlighting that dynamic by in the same episodes (last night's and last week's) that Romero recognizes something is wrong with Norma and pulls back his budding affections, we're introduced to the professor who also immediately recognizes something is off with Norma but that makes him want to pursue her! I don't really like this character of the professor, but just for that dynamic alone, this storyline yets my stamp of approval.

Edited March 31, 2015 by JenE4

[Timetoread]

Norman has made the turn to downright unlikeable.  So much so that I find that I am beginning to fear for Norma.  I know alot of people fear for Emma but I do not.  Norman likes Emma but he is not invested in/obsessed with her like he is with Norma.  Emma can't compete and is therefore safe.  I do worry, though, that Emma's death to natural causes is going to precipitate very bad behavior from Norman.  The one who CAN compete, however, is Dylan.  It broke my heart to see how much Norman is willing to hurt him because of his own jealousy.  I nearly cried to see how little compassion Norman has for the brother who literally killed for him.  But then I had to remind myself that he is Psycho™.

 

One thing that I love about this show is the intelligence in which they portray these two characters.  In the beginning we are introduced to the quirkiness that is Norma.  We assume, as pop culture has told us, that SHE is somehow to blame for what her son becomes.  We see her hold him too close, and look longingly into his eyes, and depend on him in a way that is just shy of unnatural.   So we think, THIS is why he is what he is.  But as time went by it has become more apparent that what Norman is has nothing to do with Norma.  Norma is just a quirky, damaged, scared woman who gave birth to a monster and who has tried, to the best of her abilities, to love his darker nature away.  But she can't do it anymore.  His illness, now fueled by his testosterone is more than she can handle.  I've been impresessed about how, when Norman utters something that is completely off the wall, Norma calls him on it.  In this episode alone she told him that he was behaving childishly and, with Emma, manipulatively - even going so far as to threaten him if he hurts Emma in this process.  Norma is not insane.  Norman IS.

 

One thing that struck me in the previous episode (maybe before that) is that the Norma in his head is not at all like the REAL Norma.  She is much more contained, ruthless, and certain.  She is more like Norman than Norma.  But that's the point.  The Norma in his head is and always WAS Norman.  Norman is the sole perpetrator and the instinct to kill is his.  What I saw that sent a chill down my spine was that Norman seems to be pulling away from the real Norma and as she distances more and more from his idealized head version, she becomes more and more in danger.

 

As for Caleb.  I think he's dying.  His need to make amends with his sister.  To connect and give something, LEAVE something, to his son.  His openeness about the incest - although he still struggles to admit that it was rape.  His reluctance to go to a hospital.  I almost want to see him get his minute with Norma, though my loyalties are always with the vicitim and if she can't handle seeing him then that decision will have to lay.  I just wonder if perhaps a sincere apology couldn't help bring her some closure.  It is helping so far with Dylan as she no longer looks at him as the product of her rape and shame but rather as the beautiful rose that grew out of the dung pile.  I don't know.  I am still trying to figure out Caleb's motivations.  I want to see him as all bad, but so far that hasn't been obvious.  Even the fact that he didn't tell Dylan that Norman attacked him at the hotel.  The jury is still deliberating.

[Timetoread]

Absolutely! If last week was Freddie's Emmy reel and the week before was Vera's, this week's was Max's. I, too, just felt my heart breaking when he would just give that wounded look--this poor little boy inside who just wants a parent who loves him. Heart-wrenching!

 

There was a lot of character development this episode! In addition to feeling how desperately Dylan just wants to be loved--despite him acting like he wanted nothing to do with Norma or Caleb for most of the series--I feel like every character was pushed more into their ultimate roles.

 

Norman is just losing it altogether--asking right in front of the police whether he killed Annika and acting like a jealous, jilted loved over Norma, firmly trying to put Norma in her place over "his" house and likewise acting like Dylan was trying to take his place as the husband/father of the family.

 

Norma was acting in her role of pushing everyone to their limits--assuming the picnic was for her (representing her place as Norman's true love) while also (to Norman) trying to break up Emma and Norman by telling him he can't be physical with her; meanwhile (again, to Norman) pushing Norman out of the #1 spot and replacing him with Dylan as her confidante. And, of course, Norma's manipulation has Dylan and Romero scrambling again with this whole flashdrive thing, and now she's roped the professor into her crazy shennanigans! I was actually worried for the kid in the coffee shop! Thank goodness for him he couldn't help and she moved on! But it's like everyone in her realm falls for her manipulative lies. Even though she's always been like this, I think this episode really highlighted that it goes well beyond Norman and everyone close to her is affected by her. So by the time Caleb was saying how he couldn't help falling in love with her and was heartbroken when she said it had to end, I actually, for the first time, believed him. Maybe Norma wasn't the "victim" there--maybe Caleb was the one who was victimized by Norma. And, damn, that's some strong characterization to make me feel that way because normally I would never even dream of villainizing the victim in a situation like this, but with how Norma is and Caleb's heart-breaking confession, I felt that Norma has been manipulating people since she was a child.

 

Romero is an interesting barometer on Norma because just when you feel like he's completely suckered by her and would do anything to protect her and her kids, that police instinct kicks in that something isn't quite right with her. I like how the writers are really highlighting that dynamic by in the same episodes (last night's and last week's) that Romero recognizes something is wrong with Norma and pulls back his budding affections, we're introduced to the professor who also immediately recognizes something is off with Norma but that makes him want to pursue her! I don't really like this character of the professor, but just for that dynamic alone, this storyline yets my stamp of approval.

 

Wow!  You and I view Norma in completely opposite ways!  In fact your take on every scenario you wrote is the polar opposite of how i look at it.  I'm not saying this to quibble, I just find it fascinating that two people watching the same thing come to utterly different conclusions.  That's cool though, I'm in to see how it all works out.

[truthaboutluv]

Ah Bates Motel - land of really fucked up family relationships. On one side you have nutty Norman using poor dying Emma to try and make his mother jealous because he thinks she's distancing herself from him and now likes Dylan more than him. Then you have Caleb pretty much confirming his sexually abusing his sister but still not truly believing it was wrong because he "loved her so much" and in his mind "you can't help who you love." Then there's poor, poor Dylan, so desperate to be loved, going along with Norma's VERY stupid idea because he's just so happy she's trusting him and needing him and keeping creepy Caleb around because as fucked up as the situation is, he's still his father/uncle. 

 

Speaking of Norma's stupid plan, this is the first time I felt like I was really, really frustrated and annoyed with Norma. Some woman shows up with a bullet in her stomach, giving you a flash drive that you have no idea what's on it, but stands to reason it's probably what got her killed and she doesn't tell Romero. Romero who has proven to her that she can trust him and who has saved her ass repeatedly.

 

And then Dylan tells her some very dangerous guys showed up likely looking for said flash drive and she's all "oh it's probably just her pimp, it's fine." And then starts talking about how whatever is on the drive might be good for her and she deserves something good to happen to her. Yes something good that apparently got this woman murdered. And so now, once again she'll stupidly get herself in over her head and once again, Romero will have to save her, when this all could have been avoided if she'd just told him the truth. 

 

And then there was Norman - creepy, mommy obsessed Norman. I was simultaneously amused and horrified at Norman's creepy makeout with Emma, that was clearly intended to make Norma jealous. And man was he being a melodramatic brat, which is why I was amused everytime Norma called him a child and looked irritated with his whining and just over his histrionics.

 

And I totally knew he would find out about Caleb and will definitely use it to once again get "Mother" all to himself. Thing is as creepy and whiny as Norman was being, I blame Norma for his weirdness and creepy attachment to her. She cultivated that relationship to what it is and helped foster that unhealthy attachment Norma has towards her. 

 

Finally, I wonder if the sex club mystery will loosely tie back to the human trafficking storyline from Season 1. Probably not but I just remembered it this week and well, they've kept the boring marijuana thing going so I guess it's possible.

 

Wow!  You and I view Norma in completely opposite ways!  In fact your take on every scenario you wrote is the polar opposite of how i look at it.  I'm not saying this to quibble, I just find it fascinating that two people watching the same thing come to utterly different conclusions.

 

 

Yeah it was interesting reading your post and JenE4's - two very different perspectives. I have to say I come down more in the middle of both perspectives. I have never seen Norma as this super manipulative liar that many have since Season 1 of the show and I definitely didn't see her as manipulating every and all in this week's episode. And I DEFINITELY do not buy the notion that she maybe had some culpability in what happened between her and Caleb.

 

That said,  I don't agree that she's completely blame free with regards to Norman. Of course it's not her fault he becomes a crazy killer. Norman absolutely has culpability for his actions. However, in the first season the writers portrayed Norma and Norman's relationship as her largely being the more co-dependent one. Remember her reaction when Norman wanted to try out for a team that Ms. Watson suggested would be a good way for him to make friends?

 

Norma pretty much all but forbade him, saying she needed him with her at the motel. There was her angry reaction to his showing up late for dinner because he was hanging out with Bradley. Hell her reaction to Bradley in general and the possibility of Norman having friends. And she was pretty suspicious of Emma when she first met her. And remember her creepy revenge sex with Matthew Vartan's character last season after Norman shut his door on her and pushed her away while he was dating Cody?

 

So Norma was more than culpable in creating this twisted, co-dependent relationship with Norman and then on top of that there was her covering up his murder of his dad. And later when Dylan told her maybe Norman does need help with the blackouts and his killing his dad and not remembering, she shut that down quickly and threatened to never talk to Dylan if he ever said a word about any of it to Norman. So no, I'm not saying she's solely responsible for who Norman becomes but I don't hold her entirely blameless. I feel like they have an unhealthy relationship that she definitely did her part in fostering. 

 

And speaking of Norma, my favorite moment from the episode is when she tells Dylan Annika gave her the flashdrive and told her to use it for her and Norman and Dylan says, "Norman spoke to her?" Norma responds, "oh it's Norman, nutty women always open up to him."  That cracked me up.

Edited March 31, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Black Knight]

So by the time Caleb was saying how he couldn't help falling in love with her and was heartbroken when she said it had to end, I actually, for the first time, believed him. Maybe Norma wasn't the "victim" there--maybe Caleb was the one who was victimized by Norma. And, damn, that's some strong characterization to make me feel that way because normally I would never even dream of villainizing the victim in a situation like this, but with how Norma is and Caleb's heart-breaking confession, I felt that Norma has been manipulating people since she was a child.

Norma was a child and younger than Caleb. It's highly doubtful she knew anything about sex. So no, I reject that interpretation. I was okay with Caleb's "Flowers in the Attic" bit, because yes, a young child who knows nothing about sex and loves her brother could think that it's okay when he starts having sex with her. But when she found out that incest is wrong, she tried to end that - which isn't the act of a manipulator who's trying to survive in the house, it's the act of someone who's trying to do the right thing. But he did turn nasty and violent and started raping her repeatedly. If you ask me, we got Norma's origin story in this episode (because I agree she is manipulative now), and it's Caleb who turned her into a manipulator. She had no one in that house anymore, no safe place anymore, after her brother started raping her. So she figured out an escape by manipulating her boyfriend into marrying her by getting him to believe the baby she was carrying was his.

 

My heart did not break in the slightest on hearing Caleb's "woe is me, how dare my kid sister decide her body is off-limits to me" confession. He held her down and raped her as she cried and screamed, and he calls that love? Give me a break. But somehow that's Norma's fault? Her emotional development basically stopped when he raped her for the first time, as often happens with children who are raped. And if Caleb's guilt/responsibility is mitigated by the assholes he was raised by, well, Norma was in the same situation as him and gets that same consideration. And then she gets more consideration because unlike Caleb, Norma was being raped repeatedly, for years. No wonder she turned into a manipulator - her main motivation for manipulating is always the same, it's about making herself feel safe. Which is why I don't believe for a minute that Norma the child purposely manipulated Caleb into a sexual relationship. If that had been the case, if it had been about manipulation, she would not have tried to end it when she still had years to go in the house. But she did.

[Guest]

Did Norma claim he held her down?  I'm not sure she's the most reliable narrator.  I'm not condoning what he did, but I think the writers could present a fairly different version of events, one where it's all much more gray.  

 

Look at the re-do on the Dylan character.  In his first scenes, he was a raging asshole to Norma and Norman.  Now he's this loving, doting, caring brother & son.  

[turbogirlnyc]

Caleb admitted he raped Norma. There's nothing gray about it.

[Timetoread]

Norma was a child and younger than Caleb. It's highly doubtful she knew anything about sex. So no, I reject that interpretation. I was okay with Caleb's "Flowers in the Attic" bit, because yes, a young child who knows nothing about sex and loves her brother could think that it's okay when he starts having sex with her. But when she found out that incest is wrong, she tried to end that - which isn't the act of a manipulator who's trying to survive in the house, it's the act of someone who's trying to do the right thing. But he did turn nasty and violent and started raping her repeatedly. If you ask me, we got Norma's origin story in this episode (because I agree she is manipulative now), and it's Caleb who turned her into a manipulator. She had no one in that house anymore, no safe place anymore, after her brother started raping her. So she figured out an escape by manipulating her boyfriend into marrying her by getting him to believe the baby she was carrying was his.

 

My heart did not break in the slightest on hearing Caleb's "woe is me, how dare my kid sister decide her body is off-limits to me" confession. He held her down and raped her as she cried and screamed, and he calls that love? Give me a break. But somehow that's Norma's fault? Her emotional development basically stopped when he raped her for the first time, as often happens with children who are raped. And if Caleb's guilt/responsibility is mitigated by the assholes he was raised by, well, Norma was in the same situation as him and gets that same consideration. And then she gets more consideration because unlike Caleb, Norma was being raped repeatedly, for years. No wonder she turned into a manipulator - her main motivation for manipulating is always the same, it's about making herself feel safe. Which is why I don't believe for a minute that Norma the child purposely manipulated Caleb into a sexual relationship. If that had been the case, if it had been about manipulation, she would not have tried to end it when she still had years to go in the house. But she did.

 

Bravo!!  ITA!  I do want to say that I question the assertion that Norma is a manipulator - in the connotation that we mostly use it, to imply that she plays people to get what she wants.  Norma is not surrounded by fruits of her manipulative lifestyle.  She has very little to show.  What comes across as manipulative is that damsel in distress, woe is me, affectation that is usually a lie women put on, but I think that it's mostly real from Norma.  She's just so self absorbed and in distress that she honestly does want the men in her life to make the bad go away.  But a manipulator?  She's had Norman, but really she's been protecting him more than the other way around.  His father abused her, he killed him, she covered it.  Dylan wasn't even speaking to her until a year ago and he still calls her Norma.  Her last boyfriend tried to kill her.  Romero isn't really being manipulated by her, he's there because her house is a 24/7 crime scene.  Even the stuff about Caleb.  She hadn't told anybody and completely lied about her entire childhood for decades until she thought she was about to die and told Norman the truth.   Also, I believed her that she didn't want Norman to take sexual advantage of Emma because she likes Emma and she had figured out what Norman was doing.

 

I think the thing with Norma is that she actually tells the truth 95% of the time but her demeanor and oddness make people not trust her and things seem to swirl around her without her having real knowledge of it.  Case in point, her talking to the drug guy because she thought he would help with the bypass, but he was a bad guy who ordered a hit on her behalf and accused her of manipulating him to do it.  Then the rich friends who bought her a seat on the council, simply because all Norma can think about and say is that she doesn't want that bypass in.  It's really comical actually, because all of these people do things on her behalf using the resources at their personal disposal but she never actually asked for all of that.  She's actually very simple - she wants her son to not kill people and she wants people to stay at her motel.  That's it.  It's really not her fault that chaos follows her around.  She's like Forrest Gump.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Timetoread

[Guest]

I'm not saying he didn't rape her.  I think they can spin it as they were both abused, neglected minors in a terrible situation and Norma encouraged their physical relationship but Caleb blames himself due to being older.  They have a lot of latitude in how they could go with it.  Caleb is not going to come off as Brother of the Year, but he could come off as as much a victim as Norma, if they go that route.  

 

I don't know if they will.  They seem to like doing character 180s.  The psych prof has already gone from arrogant fool to caring listener.  

Edited March 31, 2015 by Guest

[Timetoread]

They have a lot of latitude in how they could go with it.  Caleb is not going to come off as Brother of the Year, but he could come off as as much a victim as Norma, if they go that route.

 

In my opinion, there is no latitude for childhood incest or rape.  While I feel that Caleb was indeed a victim of what I believe was a criminally neglectful and abusive household, Caleb's actions and crimes are his own to bear.  All parties involved - Norma and Caleb - have confirmed that what took place in that household was rape.

 

I am just puzzled at what Norma has done or said that makes her every word questionable.  Why would she lie about this?  In fact in the very first episode, she killed her rapist.  They set the stage right there that this woman was no stranger to rape.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Timetoread

[Spartan Girl]

"I didn't think your mother was coming on this date with us!"  Quote of the whole freaking series right there.

 

Norman using Emma to make Norma jealous because he's jealous of Dylan officially knocked this show up another notch on the fucked-up scale.

 

Geez, Norman is getting more and more unbalanced with each episode.  I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up killing Caleb or even Dylan by the end of the season. 

[SHOgirl]

I love all the very insightful commentary regarding this show. I do wonder, however, how much a poster's life experience informs the commentary. It's just interesting that it appears that poster's assumptions are being analyzed as fact. Maybe this thread needs a counselor on-site to help address any issues the subject matter causes to surface in us. Mostly kidding.

[peacheslatour]

 

"I didn't think your mother was coming on this date with us!"  Quote of the whole freaking series right there.

For me it was "You wouldn't know your ass from a handbag if you had a head cold!"

[maczero]

Caleb's face plant would've made Wile E. Coyote cringe.  He's a tough sob to walk that off.

 

I don't understand why the Caleb/Norma incest is supposed to be this big mystery for some posters after hearing Caleb's side of things.  He never claimed that Norma seduced him so that eliminates the idea that Norma was some pre-teen temptress.  He admitted that he wouldn't let go of the sexual relationship after she told him it was wrong.  What more needs to be said other than he was her abuser?  

 

As for Norma being a master manipulator, I don't see it.  Yes, she lies and she does manipulate Norman but I wouldn't call her a master.  Most of Norma's lies are to protect herself or Norman.  Other than Norman, her attempts to manipulate anyone usually blow up in her face.  It's one of the things I love about this character. As someone upthread mentioned, what Norma does have going for her is that people (normally men) want to come to her rescue.  The thing is though she's not actively trying to exploit this.

 

Did anyone think Norma assumed that the Asian kid could help her with the hard drive specifially because he was Asian? 

Edited March 31, 2015 by maczero

[Mick Lady]

Wow!  You and I view Norma in completely opposite ways!  In fact your take on every scenario you wrote is the polar opposite of how i look at it.  I'm not saying this to quibble, I just find it fascinating that two people watching the same thing come to utterly different conclusions.  That's cool though, I'm in to see how it all works out.

 

THIS Timetoread! (Love your screen name) This, is exactly why I love this site! Everyone may have different view point of what's going on, but is never rude to anyone who holds a wildly different opinion. My problem is, I can't decide who's right! Both arguments are defended perfectly.

 

I was a math major. This stuff is out of my pay grade. Thank you all, for making me think.

 

Edited because, I also can't spell....

Edited March 31, 2015 by Mick Lady

[Fable]

One thing I really liked about this episode was the fact the Norma recognized what Norman was up to regarding Emma, and instead of interpreting it as Emma being a threat to her relationship with Norman, she admonishes him about it and warns him not to hurt Emma, either emotionally or physically or he will have hell to pay. 

 

Regarding Norman and Dylan, I just don't even know what to say.  Their dynamic is heart breaking, but I knew the moment Norma told Norman that Dylan said that they shouldn't be in a bed together that Dylan was going to fast fall out of favor with Norman. 

 

In other news, I'm now dying to know what is on that flash drive.   I wish Norma would just give it to Romera, especially after finding out that there were people breaking into her properly looking for something.  She can't access it, and now she seems to be in danger because of it.  She doesn't even need to tell him she tried to hide it from him.  She can simply say that she discovered it while cleaning out the room.

[Mick Lady]

Exactly Fable! What is on that Flash drive? It will help Norma and her son? How? What could it possibly be?

 

This is going to drive me nuts...

[Glade]

Poor Dylan; Norma is just triangulating, just using him; it's not a real bond.  And it's really sad that Norma's ridiculous threats and projection overwhelm the fact that Norman already knows Emma was physically able to sleep with Gunnar just a few months ago.  Norma's only desire is to protect herself, and that she does horribly, with her own creepy lack of boundaries and psychotic tendencies, because what feels safe to her is actually abusive and unhealthy.  If Dylan had taken Norman and left back in S1 Norman could have seen a therapist and diverted away from this path. 

[Bec]

I can see why some would think Caleb can be sort of "redeemed". It wouldn't be the first time a TV show turned around and present a rapist as a likable (or somewhat likable) character. Says something about the culture we all live in, doesn't it? This kind of stuff is what people mean by "rape culture". And it's why I hope this show doesn't go there. Last thing we need is to add yet another example to the pile.

 

So far this show has been good about stuff like treating women as human beings. Romero is treating the murder cases as two dead people and that rich guy dismissed it as "two dead hookers", but his character is supposed to be a dick.

 

I agree with the people who say Norma is not any kind of master manipulator. That kid in the coffee shop was like "your mother did this?" Obviously not believing that once he saw how hard it was to crack that thumb drive and how shifty Norma was being. I bet he could have done more but (wisely) decided it was a bad idea.

 

All the times Norma actually tried to manipulate has been utter fails. If anything, I would say Norma is way too naive. It's a trait that gets her in over her head over and over.

 

Dylan can see neither Norma nor Caleb is all that good for him, he looks uneasy around them all the time, but when anyone throws him so much as a crumb of love, he responds to it, he can't even help himself.

 

I can believe that Caleb thinks he loves Norma and thinks she's the one being unreasonable for setting some boundaries. That's completely in character for a creepy stalker and rapist. I'm not sure if Dylan can see through all of Caleb's bullshit, though. I hope Dylan finds out Emma knows about the incest, just so he can talk about this stuff with Emma. She'll set him straight on how fucked up it is that Caleb thinks this is what love is!

 

Ooh, and one thing that jumps out at me in this episode upon reflection: Caleb was totally pulling Dylan away from Norman because he still remembers Norman attacking him as "mother". As far as he knows, Dylan has no idea (well, that's true, Dylan only knows about the rage blackouts, not the part where Norman becomes "mother").

 

I wonder if Caleb is going to talk to Dylan about Norman next week. Maybe then we will get a better handle on why he's been keeping Norman's "mother" attack to himself.

 

As far as Caleb knows, Norma has no idea Norman snaps, so he can't blackmail her about it if she doesn't believe him and he has no proof. He also can't warn her about it because they're not exactly on speaking terms and he doesn't think she would take his word for it anyway.

 

Did anyone think Norma assumed that the Asian kid could help her with the hard drive specifially because he was Asian?

I didn't even think about that, but that would be very Norma. Hee! But seriously, I think she saw that he seemed to be doing something with code. He wasn't typing on a word processor or facebooking. Norma might have asked me for help! I'm Asian and I mess around with html/css/php. She wouldn't realize straight away that I know nothing about cracking passwords. Hee!

 

What is on that Flash drive? It will help Norma and her son? How? What could it possibly be?

My wild guess? Incriminating documents on a whole bunch of the rich guys in the area? It'll stop the bypass (at least for a time) if the lot of them gets sent to jail? Maybe that's how it will help.

[JenE4]

Timetoread, on 31 Mar 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Wow! You and I view Norma in completely opposite ways! In fact your take on every scenario you wrote is the polar opposite of how i look at it. I'm not saying this to quibble, I just find it fascinating that two people watching the same thing come to utterly different conclusions. That's cool though, I'm in to see how it all works out.

We may have completely different points of view, but I also really like your post and can see that perspective, too! I agree that the illness is obviously deep inside Norman—and I like your point that the Norma in Norman’s head is different from the actual Norma. Yet, I think even if Norma isn’t the “cause” of Norman’s illness, she’s definitely breeding it. If she really cared about helping Norman, she would have that kid in an in-patient facility getting a complete psych eval. But instead her #1 priority is keeping Norman with her—that’s not getting him the help he needs. In fact, she makes up a story of a typical teenager pulling away from his mom to talk to the psych prof about, and she thinks she’s getting some therapy about Norman. She KNOWS that he WILL likely kill again. I think her warning about not sleeping with Emma was moreso about how Norman might pull a Ms. Watson on her—the same exact reason why she thought he probably killed Annika because she was “sex crazed” and, as she told him, he can’t be alone with sex-crazed women. Norma is allowing Norman to turn into the Psycho. And every day that she witnesses him turning more mentally ill and not doing anything about it—and instead actively HIDING his mental illness to keep him close to her—and the more fearful she gets about him killing and still doesn’t do anything to protect him and the population at large, that’s all on her. Norma is also putting Dylan in harm’s way, too, with that flash drive. She’s completely selfish. The contents of the drive is something that she can use to her benefit, and that’s all she needs to hear! I mean gun-wielding goons broke into the hotel and held her other child at gunpoint and instead of saying, “Ok, this is too much, I better call Alex to protect me and my kids!” It’s like, “Well, whatever this secret is I can USE for me and my son, so who cares if they show up again, we’ll just hide the flashdrive at my son’s place.” She’s creating and escalating ALL of these dangerous situations.

[JenE4]

Norma was a child and younger than Caleb. It's highly doubtful she knew anything about sex. So no, I reject that interpretation. I was okay with Caleb's "Flowers in the Attic" bit, because yes, a young child who knows nothing about sex and loves her brother could think that it's okay when he starts having sex with her. But when she found out that incest is wrong, she tried to end that - which isn't the act of a manipulator who's trying to survive in the house, it's the act of someone who's trying to do the right thing. But he did turn nasty and violent and started raping her repeatedly. If you ask me, we got Norma's origin story in this episode (because I agree she is manipulative now), and it's Caleb who turned her into a manipulator. She had no one in that house anymore, no safe place anymore, after her brother started raping her. So she figured out an escape by manipulating her boyfriend into marrying her by getting him to believe the baby she was carrying was his.

 

My heart did not break in the slightest on hearing Caleb's "woe is me, how dare my kid sister decide her body is off-limits to me" confession. He held her down and raped her as she cried and screamed, and he calls that love? Give me a break. But somehow that's Norma's fault? Her emotional development basically stopped when he raped her for the first time, as often happens with children who are raped. And if Caleb's guilt/responsibility is mitigated by the assholes he was raised by, well, Norma was in the same situation as him and gets that same consideration. And then she gets more consideration because unlike Caleb, Norma was being raped repeatedly, for years. No wonder she turned into a manipulator - her main motivation for manipulating is always the same, it's about making herself feel safe. Which is why I don't believe for a minute that Norma the child purposely manipulated Caleb into a sexual relationship. If that had been the case, if it had been about manipulation, she would not have tried to end it when she still had years to go in the house. But she did.

I tend to doze off during this show, so it sounds like I missed CRITICAL details! I had no clue that Norma was a young child who knew nothing about sex. I thought they were both older teenagers, and when she got pregnant with Dylan she tricked her boyfriend into marrying her. I thought she was like 18 at the time! If that's incorrect and she was a CHILD or she was a young child when it started, then yes, I retract my statement about Norma in relation to Caleb. My comments were based on my misunderstanding that the incest/rape started when she was mid-to-late teens.

[truthaboutluv]

I believe Norma, in first telling Norman about what happened to her, stated that it started when she was 13 and continued for years. And last night Caleb did allude to it being something that went on for some time. Hence his saying that they were "happy" until Norma came home one day and told him they couldn't anymore because it was wrong.

 

My guess is Norma probably mentioned something to a friend (if it was someone in a position of power, I imagine they would have sent authorities to the home) who probably said to her that's not normal and it's sick, etc. for her to be involved with her brother.

 

Because again, per Caleb himself, all they had was each other and they were very close and so she probably believed it was okay because he told her it was. And then she learned later that it wasn't and what he was doing to her was wrong. And then Caleb left the rest unsaid but I thought it was clear that once Norma told him it was wrong, that's when the abuse got violent and he forced himself on her. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Aquarius]

I believe Norma, in first telling Norman about what happened to her, stated that it started when she was 13 and continued for years. And last night Caleb did allude to it being something that went on for some time. Hence his saying that they were "happy" until Norma came home one day and told him they couldn't anymore because it was wrong.

 

My guess is Norma probably mentioned something to a friend (if it was someone in a position of power, I imagine they would have sent authorities to the home) who probably said to her that's not normal and it's sick, etc. for her to be involved with her brother.

 

Because again, per Caleb himself, all they had was each other and they were very close and so she probably believed it was okay because he told her it was. And then she learned later that it wasn't and what he was doing to her was wrong. And then Caleb left the rest unsaid but I thought it was clear that once Norma told him it was wrong, that's when the abuse got violent and he forced himself on her. 

 

I agree with this.  And I think in the beginning maybe Norma really DID think it was okay.  It's interesting to me that Caleb said something like "she was always the smart one, when she found out isn't wasn't right she told me we couldn't do it anymore."  I think there is a world of grey area between painting Norma as a 13-year-old temptress, and a girl trapped in a warped family that is so starved for love and attention that she might sexually experiment with her brother.  At 13 years of age I didn't know everything about sex, but I certainly did know about it, and it was around that age that my experimenting began.

 

Norma is known to cross an appropriate line frequently with Norman.  So I can't completely dismiss the idea that might have happened in her past as well, during a time she was craving comfort and didn't fully understand even where the line was.

 

I don't think considering those possibilities in the context of this show, with all its warped depictions of male/female familial relationships, is necessarily a reflection of rape culture.  I am in now way BLAMING Norma in my scenario.  I'm just saying . . . I can see where something different might have happened.

[Timetoread]

Poor Dylan; Norma is just triangulating, just using him; it's not a real bond. 

 

Here is where I adamantly disagree.  I believe that Norma loves Dylan. I suspected it in the scene when he took her shooting and he let the word "Mom" slip and she said quietly, "You called me Mom" and kept shooting - it was subtle and well done.   But the scene that made me sure of it was when she sent Emma and Norman away from passed out drunk Dylan, after having revealed his parentage.  She looked all over him, covered in vomit as he was, and then she just looked at him and caressed his head and you could see how much it pained her that he was hurting from this revelation.  That moment told me everything.  She loves him so much, just as she loves Norman, a mother's love, but she can't reach him.   He and Norman are so very different.  Everything she does wrong as a parent pushes Dylan away and everything she does wrong as a parent pulls Norman closer.  Leading me to...

 

Yet, I think even if Norma isn’t the “cause” of Norman’s illness, she’s definitely breeding it. If she really cared about helping Norman, she would have that kid in an in-patient facility getting a complete psych eval. But instead her #1 priority is keeping Norman with her—that’s not getting him the help he needs. In fact, she makes up a story of a typical teenager pulling away from his mom to talk to the psych prof about, and she thinks she’s getting some therapy about Norman. She KNOWS that he WILL likely kill again. I think her warning about not sleeping with Emma was moreso about how Norman might pull a Ms. Watson on her—the same exact reason why she thought he probably killed Annika because she was “sex crazed” and, as she told him, he can’t be alone with sex-crazed women. Norma is allowing Norman to turn into the Psycho. And every day that she witnesses him turning more mentally ill and not doing anything about it—and instead actively HIDING his mental illness to keep him close to her—and the more fearful she gets about him killing and still doesn’t do anything to protect him and the population at large, that’s all on her.

 

I think Norma has absolutely done all the wrong things with Norman, but for me, I consider the source.  This is a woman who has never experienced a single healthy relationship in her entire life.  She doesn't even know what one looks like and thus she doesn't know how to provide one.  I see her overcompensating with Norman all over the place.  Her mother was distant and sedated so she wraps herself completely around Norman and is ever present.  The only physical affection she received were from sexual partners, sadly the first and most influential being her brother.  So when she shows love to Norman, it is over the top and borderline inappropriate - although I don't believe she has sexual intentions toward Norman.  She doesn't seem to know that she's doing it.  When Dylan pointed it out, first she dismissed it.  Then she acknowledged it but considered it harmless but then she thought about it and respected Dylan as "a man" and implemented the cease and desist (well temporarily).  I think she can learn, but so far nobody's taught her what the right thing to do is.  She operates on instinct and her instincts are polar opposite to what her son needs.  Norman needs to be institutionalized - as Dylan also suggested.  Norman is not troubled.  Norman is not "off".  Norman is psychotic.  2+2 = -57 times the square root of 948 in his mind.  No therapy could have prevented him from becoming a murderer, it just may not have resulted in his adopting a mother persona.  But like many from dysfunctional backgrounds, Norma doesn't air her dirty laundry and I think she is both mistrustful of what, if any, help therapy could be to Norman AND she is scared that if they conclude that he is a dangerous nutcase (which he is) they will take him away forever and she wouldn't be able to get to him, even to comfort him.  And yes she is needy.  She needs him as much as he needs her because children often represent unconditional love to some parents who can't form healthy bonds otherwise.   She and Dylan patching things up is creating a dangerous environment, though, because Dylan is beginning to fill this need in her too and Norman isn't ready to share this space.  So in contrast to what I wrote above, everything she does right as a parent will bring Dylan closer, and everything she does right as a parent will push Norman away.  The problem is that Norman will not be pushed away.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Timetoread

[Guest]

I agree with this.  And I think in the beginning maybe Norma really DID think it was okay.  It's interesting to me that Caleb said something like "she was always the smart one, when she found out isn't wasn't right she told me we couldn't do it anymore."  I think there is a world of grey area between painting Norma as a 13-year-old temptress, and a girl trapped in a warped family that is so starved for love and attention that she might sexually experiment with her brother.  At 13 years of age I didn't know everything about sex, but I certainly did know about it, and it was around that age that my experimenting began.

 

Norma is known to cross an appropriate line frequently with Norman.  So I can't completely dismiss the idea that might have happened in her past as well, during a time she was craving comfort and didn't fully understand even where the line was.

 

I don't think considering those possibilities in the context of this show, with all its warped depictions of male/female familial relationships, is necessarily a reflection of rape culture.  I am in now way BLAMING Norma in my scenario.  I'm just saying . . . I can see where something different might have happened.

Exactly, thank you.

 

My saying Caleb might get a whitewash in the writing is in no way saying 'rape is ok'.  Number one, this is fiction.  No Normas were harmed.  Number two, they push all these characters in and out of black and white and gray all the time, and that's ok.  Norma and Norman included.  Norma is no pure innocent in all this.  She knows she's abusing Norman, or she should.  Maybe she also manipulated Caleb emotionally.  Theorizing that the writers could go that direction is by no means implying rape is ok and I'm a little tired of the implication.  

[green]

Speaking of Norma's stupid plan, this is the first time I felt like I was really, really frustrated and annoyed with Norma. Some woman shows up with a bullet in her stomach, giving you a flash drive that you have no idea what's on it, but stands to reason it's probably what got her killed and she doesn't tell Romero. Romero who has proven to her that she can trust him and who has saved her ass repeatedly.

 

And then Dylan tells her some very dangerous guys showed up likely looking for said flash drive and she's all "oh it's probably just her pimp, it's fine." And then starts talking about how whatever is on the drive might be good for her and she deserves something good to happen to her. Yes something good that apparently got this woman murdered. And so now, once again she'll stupidly get herself in over her head and once again, Romero will have to save her, when this all could have been avoided if she'd just told him the truth. 

 

Yeah I hate lazy writing which I pretty much define as something like someone withholding needed information from someone else who could help.  It takes me out of the episode.  I sit there the whole time and mutter to myself "fork over the damn thumb drive" because not to do so is entirely stupid even by Norma standards.  It's not like she thinks Romero is evil and out to get her.  On the contrary.  Then she still doesn't fork it over after Dylan is almost killed by the two guys in the office?  Just poor writing.

 

It would have been far better to hand it over to Romero immediately and have him involved in the twisted rich guys vs decent humanity plot line from the get go.  Maybe Norma could interfere trying to "help" and have some dark comedy go down as a result.  But Romero should have the drive by now.  Period.

 

Yeah Norma has withheld stuff before but you combine this with the Norma-Dylan secret chats (thumb drives, crazy half-brothers) in this one episode alone and it just goes completely over the top.  Makes the show sink down into that lazy writing stuff.  This show is way better than that.  So come on, fork over the thumb drive and stop all the skulking around stuff.

 

Or at least make the skulking around involve Romero dealing with an unwanted and unrecruited " amateur deputy" Norma.  (Everyone has what bothers them and endless non-communication for no logical reasons leading to major plot lines drives me crazy).

Edited March 31, 2015 by green

[Guest]

Yeah, I was balking at Norma calling Romero a liar for not telling her he was looking for "something".   Was she hoping he'd say, "I'm looking for a flash drive.  It has a treasure map to a million in unmarked bills.  The password is FALCON.  If you find it, call me"?

 

Though maybe it was all part of the "make Norma as inappropriate as possible" thing, like asking an Asian kid to hack the drive or refusing to change seats for the instructor.

 

We did laugh at her, "Excuse me, where is Marketing 101?" to a random college student.  Moreso at the student knowing.  

[Peanut6711]

I am just puzzled at what Norma has done or said that makes her every word questionable.

 

At the very least Nora exists in a world unto herself. At the most she's bat-shit crazy. She's totally self involved to the point of being socially awkward at times and she frequently indulges in unhealthy relationships with pretty much everyone around her.  She's the quintessential "unreliable narrator" so even if she's telling the truth, it's hard to tell. 

[queenanne]

Wow, you guys are on fire, Multi-Quote was just confusing me so I fear I had to abandon it.  Some high points:

 

I don't think we'd even temporarily have been entertaining the thought that Norma was Lolita, if we didn't have the psychosexualized mess that is Head!Norma and Movie!Norma.  Nor do I necessarily think that anyone who was thinking 13-year-old Norma was a seductress, was attributing this to Norma being in her right mind and understanding seduction.  However, once Caleb said that Norma stopped him because she learned incest was wrong, I think we can trust him to accurately be representing what happened.

 

Starting to worry a little bit that a trained criminologist like Romero is apparently so ill equipped to recognize a psychotic break.  I know he was "getting" suspicious, but they'll really have to handle the reveal carefully, to avoid its playing too plot-hole in the interim.  Maybe "have Norman get closer to Alex as a person, to the point where familiarity will dull his senses or cast a halo effect encouraging Alex to look further away."

 

I think, I don't know why, maybe it was the loving shot of Norma's abused bumper, but my first thought about the flash drive nonsense was, "Norma thinks Annika somehow knows to provide information that will stop the bypass from happening."  (In fact, did Norman specifically mention the bypass to Annika as part of "Mom's woes"?)  At worst it's probably the bad guy's blackmail material on the town movers and shakers, which could have the same salubrious effect.

 

Did anyone else catch that promising line Bob (?) had about how Romero was outside the thick of things "lately"?  Thereby implying a time where he might have been one of the sex patrons or similar?  I thought I did and it strikes me as so promising, because one of the things I was thinking lately was, the writers are going to have to start making some firm decisions about Romero's character, at least to the point of narrowing down where he falls on the white hat/black hat spectrum, instead of vaguing about the issue.  (There may be more.  I feel there's more... Will post again if I remember.)

Edited April 1, 2015 by queenanne

[quangtran]

I think the thing with Norma is that she actually tells the truth 95% of the time but her demeanor and oddness make people not trust her and things seem to swirl around her without her having real knowledge of it.

 

I do want to say that I question the assertion that Norma is a manipulator - in the connotation that we mostly use it, to imply that she plays people to get what she wants.

This conversation is just like the previous dialogue between Norma and Dylan.

 

Dylan: “You’ll say anything to get your own way!”

Norma: “My own way!? I have never gotten my own way ever.

 

Put me on the side that doesn't think Norma is all that manipulative. Sure, she's a bit crazy, but she's sincere in her craziness. She tries to control the situation, but is frequently in over her head. Based on Vera's acting choice, for me it has always been clear which parts were Norma being manipulative/controlling and which part were her being honest.

[Bec]

To be clear, I'm not at all saying anybody here is "bad" or anything for considering the possibility that the show might be heading towards "sympathy for the rapist". What's bad is that it's prevalent enough in TV shows that we've come to expect this kind of plot. That makes it too prevalent in our culture for comfort, imo.

[rue721]

Caleb gives me the creeps. Something about how he started (literally) crying that he needed to apologize to Norma, even though she didn't want to hear it and even though he didn't even care if she forgave him...that just creeped me the hell out. I guess because it was so self-absorbed. How can a man be so self-absorbed when he's talking about apologizing for RAPING someone? Who can say with a straight face how much he loves someone and that she's his whole world, when he's also talking about RAPING her? Idk, Caleb still seems like he's all about what would be best for Caleb and what Caleb wants, not what would be best for Norma or what Norma wants, and that makes me think he needs to stay as far away as possible from her and that he's still dangerous.

 

It's also creeping me out how he just kept not taking no for an answer from Dylan (in previous episodes), and now has wormed his way into his affections, and when Dylan was getting a little "disloyal" to him (while he was trying to talk to Caleb and Caleb wouldn't stop with the hammering), Caleb started yelling about how Dylan would have nothing without him. Because Caleb is willing to shell out some money for lumber when his son is 23 y/o or whatever (and regardless his son asked him not to, btw), suddenly his son would be nothing without his help? His son would be standing in the foundation of a collapsed house that he doesn't know how to build? I was about to blow my top with that. But then Caleb fell in the most theatrical way possible, so it was hard to stay angry, and then he started doing that whole tearful "I need to apologize for raping my sister, because I'm feeling guilty -- I don't care if an apology would only make her feel worse!" diatribe, which was so unsettling that I stopped even feeling angry at him really, and just felt immense disgust. Caleb is so *gross.*

 

Norman has become absolutely horrible, and I don't really like this change in the character. It seems so sudden. Last season he was still mostly just weird, now he seems malignant. The thing of him finding out about Caleb fell a little flat for me, though. I guess I didn't really understand Dylan's devastation at the end, because he had to know that the spell was going to break sometime. Hasn't he felt this same feeling before? Well, maybe it'll make sense once we get to see Norma's reaction. And Norman is being so ridiculous -- Norma can hate BOTH her sons at the same time, Norman! Even if Dylan's on the outs again, you could still be on the outs, too! :P

 

I guess Norman and Caleb are sort of similar in a way. Norman's also trying to trap Norma so that she has nobody else but him, he can't deal with her telling him no. When Caleb was getting his hand sewn up, wasn't that basically how he described how his relationship with Norma turned bad?

[natyxg]

Norman really is scaring me now.  It really feels like he is using Emma to make Norma get mad, and get attention.  But, nope, with him, it's not typical teenage rebellion.  It really is coming off, well creepy.  Like a love triangle, only one of them is his mother.  Which, ew.  And, now he's even jealous of Norma and Dylan actually bonding.  At this point, I want both Dylan and Emma to back their bags, and flee, because Norman is this close to fully boarding the Crazy Train.

 

Me too, but I want Norma go along with them as well. She's definitely a damaged woman who messes up a lot, but I don't think she's evil or has bad intentions, nor do I think she's as abusive as I would've expected after having watched the movie. I don't think she deserves crazy town Norman.  :'(

 

I also don't think she's some master manipulator. On the contrary, I think she tends to be impulsive and many things end up turning out wrong. I do think she loves Dylan, but had a hard time having a good relationship with him because he's the product of rape. She had Norman to focus on and to fill her emotional needs with, so she never tried to work things out with him. Now that she's getting afraid of Norman she's switching her focus to Dylan. Not Mother of the Year, for sure, but I just find her human. The woman has had a really dysfunctional life. I like her a lot as a character.

 

Regarding Caleb, I liked his confession scene and I liked how the story turned out to be. I don't condone rape of any kind in real life but this is a story, and stories are made interesting by complicated characters and situations. So it was interesting to see the human side of the rapist, I thought. I too wonder if he's dying. It's surprising that he would tell Dylan the truth, including admitting that it was rape rape.

 

Norman has become absolutely horrible, and I don't really like this change in the character. It seems so sudden. Last season he was still mostly just weird, now he seems malignant.

 

They have ruined Norman for me this season. They have gone full on creeper with him and it's like watching a whole new annoying character.

 

But I don't think it's sudden. I said it last year (I don't remember if here or in TWoP): the moment when the Norma in Norman's head said that she killed Miss Watson was supposed to be a very important moment, it was supposed to be the official birth of "Mother". Normal disassociated himself so much from the mother persona that he as able to pass the test because he was so convinced that he didn't kill Watson. So I thought it would be one of those moments that make a before and after and it's not odd that he's worse this season. The problem for me is that nice Norman seems to be gone now. Practically all of his scenes feel creepy to me, and not in an interesting way. He's actually become way less interesting to me and now just feels like a random creep I sort of want to see get what he deserves.

 

I guess I didn't really understand Dylan's devastation at the end, because he had to know that the spell was going to break sometime. Hasn't he felt this same feeling before?

 

 

I did understand it. Things with Norma had been going a LOT better. She told him he was the only one she could trust (when the drive thing). He told her he didn't want her to get hurt and she hugged him. It's safe to say this is probably the best they've been in a long time, if not ever. I mean, hell, she's confiding in him and not Norman, that's pretty huge. And now he's gonna lose her. Poor Dylan.

 

One thing that bugged me though: Dylan wanted to take the drive out of the house to protect Norma... but the bad guys wouldn't know that. If anything, taking the drive out of the house protected the drive  not Norma and Norman.