S04.E17: Best Laid Plans

[KingOfHearts]

This show is in a dark place right now. Snow and Charming let our their dark secret and now they feel bad, Emma is upset and angry, Rumple might die, Regina is knocked out with her cover blown, we now know the circumstances of Maleficent's loss, and the Author is evil and on the loose. It was probably intentional to leave a negative effect on the audience, but the plot holes, retcons and bad writing left a sour residue that keeps me from being too excited for how all of this is getting mended.

 

I give the show credit for finally pushing the envelope a little bit more, but we know it's not going to go to places we would want it to go. (Like fixing the stupid Author vs. free will crap, or dealing with the anger Emma has for her parents.) A lot happened that made me more angry than intrigued. There was no, "OMG, how are they going to get out of this one!?"

 

I don't see how they can say the Author manipulated major events without throwing huge retcons everywhere.

Edited March 31, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Well, fuck me sideways then.  If you have to explain what you wrote, then it means you've done a poor job.

ITA - if you have to explain things on Twitter after the show airs then you obviously aren't doing a very good job telling the story on the show itself.

[Camera One]

They just want to make it crystal clear that Snow and Charming are stupid and morally depraved.  You can't let that be too ambiguous.

[tennisgurl]

Ok so, now that I`ve had a re-watch, I still have a lot of questions...

 

When did the Author start deliberately screwing with the story? Was it when Snow and Charming first went to the unicorn to get their visions? Or was it before that? Or was it when they decided to steal Mal`s baby?

 

How many Authors are there at a time? Is it just one guy (or gal), writing down all the "great stories"? Or are there a bunch of authors, who are recording every crappy sci fi original movie too? Are they authors in some land, somewhere? Does that mean that James M. Barrie is an Author? Mary Shelley? George Lucus (Star Wars exists in this multi-verse!)? 

 

If this guy is the only Author out there, did they ever hire a replacement, after this one got book banished? 

 

I still don't get how this multi-verse really works. 

 

Lily was the best and only friend you had, Emma? Really? You knew her for like a day, if I remember right? You never found anyone else you could tolerate before Story Brooke? 

 

What Snow and Charming did was pretty awful, but they apparently didn't have control over it, and have felt guilty ever since (although this has never really been hinted at before...), which is more than most of the villains can say. And they have done much worse for much pettier reasons. 

 

So, they were kind of half right on the "Author can write us a happy ending" thing. The Author isn't supposed to write things on their own, but they can if they want? Ok...

 

I swear, I see that guy who plays the Author on my TV all the freaking time! I think I have seen him in at lest three shows this season, at least. Now, I am just going to assume he`s playing the same character in every show or movie, he`s just disguising himself to fit himself into the story, like he did here when he was pretending to be the peddler. He is no longer just a "hey, its that one guy!" guy, he is now an Evil Author, out to cause chaos, plot wholes, and bad characterization! Someone stop this monster before he writes again! 

Edited March 31, 2015 by tennisgurl

[placate]

Someone needs to call CPS on Snow and Charming.  Let's let an apprentince take away our kids choice and force another kid to be evil :( 

[Dani-Ellie]

Lily was the best and only friend you had, Emma? Really? You knew her for like a day, if I remember right? You never found anyone else you could tolerate before Story Brooke?

 

I actually think that was the entire point. How sad and lonely must Emma's childhood have been if she didn't make her first friend until 14/15 and that one afternoon and evening in the company of a girl who was essentially a stranger is the best friendship she ever had? If, as she said earlier in the season, six months was the absolute longest she'd ever stayed in a foster home, that kind of instability doesn't lend itself well to making and keeping friends. I'm sure at a certain point she just stopped trying because what would be the point if she was just going to get moved again? Why put herself through the pain of making friends only to have to leave them?

[Rumsy4]

They just want to make it crystal clear that Snow and Charming are stupid and morally depraved.  You can't let that be too ambiguous.

 

Well... they succeeded. Of course I don't accept that this version of Snow and Charming are anything but cardboard cutouts at this point. The more I think about the babynapping, the more it makes me sick. Snowing come across as bigoted and elitist. If ONCE was a space opera, they would be the kind of people that consider non-humans as subpar beings. Until the moment they glimpsed a human baby arm through the cracked egg shell, they were cool with condemning the "spawn" of a shapeshifter to additional darkness, before returning it to its mother. Let's assume for argument's sake that Snowing were assuming (or wilfully blinding themselves into believing) that Mal was giving birth to a literal dragon that would terrorize people when it grew up. That dragon would now raze twice as many villages as it might have done before, and added to that, some hero would eventually slay it. Will nobody think about the peasants?? 

Edited March 31, 2015 by Rumsy4

[tennisgurl]

Ok so, I think I am officially thinking about this WAY more than anyone on this show has, but here is my newest crack theory, going off something I said earlier. 

 

I don't actually think they did this on purpose, but casting an actor like Patrick Fischler, a guy who has had small parts in tons and tons of things (seriously, his IMBD page is huge, and it seems like he has been on a million shows,all just for one or two episodes, with his longest appearance being his nine episodes on Lost), and is recognizable, but not really someone people tend to know. Like, he could be a peddler who the main character`s meet on the road? It kind of leads to the possibility that this actor has, actually, been playing this Evil Author character this whole time, popping around the multi verse, being around just long enough to either record what he`s seen, or to cause some trouble if the story does not go the way he wants it to go. It actually acts as an interesting bit of world building, and if the writers are trying to go Meta, they can at least commit to it. Plus, I it just makes me smile thinking of all the weird stuff that could all exist in this multi verse.  

 

Now, you could say this cant work, because a lot of these shows are set in modern day, or are from before this show even started, but who the hell knows how time, space, and the multi verse actualy works in this universe? The writers wont explain it, I have to do it myself! 

 

I know I am probably stretching, but from now on, whenever I see that guy, I know who to blame all the OOC moments and plot holes on! 

[Mitch]

They just want to make it crystal clear that Snow and Charming are stupid and morally depraved.  You can't let that be too ambiguous.

 

I actually like how the show finally went their and showed them to be the most idiotic and self centered rulers in history, and that is saying something. But then I have always disliked both of them.

 

My big problem with this episode is yes, we didn't get to see the emotional confession from those two and I wished Emma's reaction included..."Really??? What is with you people and your silly definition of good and evil..like everyone is one way or another. I have done some bad things, you have done some bad things, but we arent villains.  Real people, at least in this world, are a combination of both! God you people are freaks! I am packing the bug up and getting the hell out of here with my annoying kid and by hot boyfriend!"  Later, have fun with whatever monster comes her next fall!"

[DeLurker]

If this has been addressed, apologies for bringing it up again...the Apprentice failed to tell Snow and Charming that the evil vessel would be banished from their world, but did he fail to tell them that because Reasons or because the Author can script what the Apprentice does?

[YaddaYadda]

If this has been addressed, apologies for bringing it up again...the Apprentice failed to tell Snow and Charming that the evil vessel would be banished from their world, but did he fail to tell them that because Reasons or because the Author can script what the Apprentice does?

What I got from the scene was that things with the Apprentice changed after he told Snowing about babies being blank slates and free will.  I think he was just going to tell them to guide their baby and that was it.  The Apprentice accused the Peddler of forcing him to do something terrible to Maleficent's baby and I have serious doubts as this moment that the Apprentice transferred anything from Emma onto Lily.  I know don't if that makes sense.  

 

If the Peddler has been recording the story long enough (and I mean a month's time, no more than that), then he knows about everything, does he not?  He knows that Maleficent went to Snowing, he knows that Snow and Maleficent are pregnant, he knows that Mal went to Snowing with a deal and he knows what she told them about their baby, greatest hero or greatest villain.  He knows what happened at the tree of wisdom.

 

The Apprentice doesn't need to do these mumbo jumbo incantations.  He didn't need an incantation to send the Peddler into the book.

 

If the Apprentice really removed all of Emma's darkness and she is now filled with light, is pure of heart and has a heroic spirit, then how can she still go wrong?  That makes no sense.  If the spell was to remove all of Emma's darkness, it means that her very nature has been changed, where she had a choice to go down one path or the other, she doesn't have that now.  And I'm not talking about a 17 year old stealing food to survive and landing in jail, I don't call that being dark, I call that wanting to survive.  Emma is the person who always makes the right choice (Rumple's words in 408).

 

I think the Peddler came up with an excuse to have the Apprentice banish Mal's kid to the LwM because now she's too dark to live in the Enchanted Forest.  Peddler manipulated all of that and the outcome, why wouldn't he manipulate the whole darkness vs light trade?  I mean he runs 30 seconds after he is released from the book.  You don't run if you don't have something to hide.

[Rumsy4]

I have serious doubts as this moment that the Apprentice transferred anything from Emma onto Lily. I know don't if that makes sense.

That was my first thought as well. The incantation the Apprentice recited reminded me of the fake spell Fred/George taught Ron to turn Scabbers yellow. There was too much "Abracadabra". So far in OUAT, we have only seen practitioners of magic use hand or wand motions, potions, or written scrolls to perform magic.

I think Emma is going to resist the temptation to go Dark, and once the Apprentice is releaed from the Hat, he is going to reveal that the Darkness Transference "Spell" was fake.

Of course, it's TSTW. So, it may have been literal, and the takeaway is that Emma would have turned into Regina 2.0 if not for it.

[YaddaYadda]

I think Emma is going to resist the temptation to go Dark, and once the Apprentice is releaed from the Hat, he is going to reveal that the Darkness Transference "Spell" was fake.

 

It's still about free will and choices at the end of the day.  There was emphasis put on that.  I'm guessing Gold wants to use the Peddler to darken Emma's heart and take her free will from her.  

[Whodunnit]

After the reveal, I wish Emma had been like "I'm sorry, but how are you the same Snow White who would have rescued a bluebird's nest if it fell out of a tree?"

Way to show compassion to all creatures, Snow. Also, if you think something your wife says or does is wrong, then grow a pair and stop her, Charming.

[TigerLynx]

I hope Lilly moves to Story Brooke, isn't evil, and is an actual friend to Emma.

 

Hook being jealous of Austin was funny.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I watched the ep on Sunday, but it has taken me until today to be able to post something coherent, because every other attempt I've made just ends in me ragequitting before posting. All I can say is retcon, retcon, retcon, contradiction, nonsense, flames, FLAMES...ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE.

I don't know why this show is so hellbent on destroying Snow White, and Charming by association. You know, if you want to prop up the villains, you don't have to do it at the expense of all the "heroes" in the story, you just have to be creative and write reasonably sympathetic backstories for said villains.

He wasn't even in this ep, but since it still hasn't been addressed, I still have to ask...Where is Anastasia, WILL?

[Shanna Marie]

If the spell was to remove all of Emma's darkness, it means that her very nature has been changed, where she had a choice to go down one path or the other, she doesn't have that now.  And I'm not talking about a 17 year old stealing food to survive and landing in jail, I don't call that being dark, I call that wanting to survive.

The shoplifting Pop Tarts doesn't count as dark, but would someone who magically has absolutely zero darkness in her do something like steal a car or fake a pregnancy in order to shoplift just for kicks? Emma and Neal's crime spree seemed to be more about fun than about survival.

 

They did remind us recently that the yellow bug was stolen, so maybe that's a clue that the spell was actually a fake and Mal's daughter was sent away for no good reason.

[FabulousTater]

The shoplifting Pop Tarts doesn't count as dark, but would someone who magically has absolutely zero darkness in her do something like steal a car or fake a pregnancy in order to shoplift just for kicks? Emma and Neal's crime spree seemed to be more about fun than about survival.

 

They did remind us recently that the yellow bug was stolen, so maybe that's a clue that the spell was actually a fake and Mal's daughter was sent away for no good reason.

They were stealing food so they could eat and eating is pretty basic Survival 101. It's not like they were stealing electronics. I think the sense of "fun" was being able to con the shop store clerk that she was pregnant but in actuality shoplifting food and dumping it into a bag down her dress that gave her the appearance of being pregnant. After stealing the food they then go stakeout a motel room and waited for a family to check-out so they could sneak in and take showers before housekeeping showed up. That's not something you do for fun. If they were hustling places just for a shower, then clearly, they were living out of that stolen bug and were stealing and breaking and entering to survive. But just because they thought they were clever and had a laugh doesn't mean it wasn't a necessity.

Edited March 31, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

If they were hustling places just for a shower, then clearly, they were living out of that stolen bug and were stealing and breaking and entering to survive. But just because they thought they were clever and had a laugh doesn't mean it wasn't a necessity.

But was it a necessity because they literally had no other options and would starve otherwise, or was it a necessity because they didn't want to do anything else? Emma was a teen, which did limit her options, but Neal was an adult who had at some point been capable of getting a job (since he ripped off his employer). I guess he wasn't employable at the time he was with Emma because he was wanted, but that was because of his own actions, and he apparently was able to get enough of a job to afford a New York apartment later. I also think that the survival part of it was darkened somewhat by the fact that deceit was thrown in, playing on people's good natures by using the pregnancy/labor ruse. So, stuffing a box of Pop Tarts under a coat because you're hungry isn't so dark, but I think when you get to the point of playing elaborate deception games that rely upon manipulating other people's sympathy and then laugh about how you fooled them, there's some darkness. Not slaughtering villagers darkness, but more than I think you'd get from someone who'd magically had all darkness removed. There was lying and trickery and emotional manipulation for their own benefit, and then glee rather than guilt for succeeding. Their attitudes suggested that they were stealing because they could and could get away with it, not just because they had to. I think Neal's darker there than Emma because she was just a kid and was dependent on him (which makes that whole relationship creepy), but I don't think someone who'd had all darkness removed would be acting that way.

 

And I really, really would prefer if her turning her life around after that and making the right choices was because she's awesome, not because magic gives her no other choice. This is one bit of evidence that supports my theory, so basically, I'm doing a la-la-la-not listening thing here, and her crime spree was totally a sign that she has normal human levels of dark capability, just like everyone else.

[kili]

They were stealing food so they could eat and eating is pretty basic Survival 101. It's not like they were stealing electronics.

 

They also stole the key-chain which was just for fun.

 

I guess he wasn't employable at the time he was with Emma because he was wanted,

 

There are millions of undocumented workers in the US. I don't think Neal would have had a problem getting a job since he managed to get one when he had absolutely no documentation at all and was entirely new to our world. Just get a new idenntity and start again. It was just easier and funner to steal. Neal definitely made Emma darker.

[FabulousTater]

I think Neal's darker there than Emma because she was just a kid and was dependent on him (which makes that whole relationship creepy), but I don't think someone who'd had all darkness removed would be acting that way.

I get what you're saying, but I think you're forgetting the bit at the end of The Apprentice/Snowing flashback where The Apprentice told Snowing that Emma still could go dark so they had to guide her to make sure she stayed in the light. Meaning, Emma was still corruptible. (I know, I know,  it makes what Snowing did to egg!Lily dumb and pointless, but that's what these dumbass writers gave us).

 

I think what it means, or what the writers are saying it means, when they said that Emma had no darkness is that on her own, without outside influences, Emma would never do these things. But Emma didn't grow up in a vacuum. She wasn't sequestered from "evil" and "darkness". Living in and out of foster care and on the streets, Emma was corrupted by all those people around her. So as you noted, Shanna Marie, Nealfire was clearly the corruptive influence on Emma. He showed her nothing good. Nealfire was a bad influence on her

and bad for her. Emma was clearly a much younger 16 year old girl dependent on a much older adult Nealfire, who all he did was show her was how to do bad and illegal things -- breaking into places, shoplifting, con jobs, etc. -- and then later showed her cold and cruel personal betrayal.

 

I think also that's where August's plan jibes with this stupid suck the darkness out fetus!Emma plot: August colluded with Nealfire to send Emma to prison because that was the easiest way for August and Nealfire to try and get Emma back on the straight and narrow -- and also wipe their hands clean of the situation. It was best and convenient path for them, but not Emma. I still hate Nealfire and August with a burning passion for such a selfish, cruel and hurtful plan, but that's what happens when assholes work together against you.

 

(Sidenote: I don't know that August knew Emma needed to go back to the "hero" side as per The Apprentices instructions. I think he only knew Emma needed to be in Storybrooke to break the curse when she was 28, but it's not a totally farfetched fanwank considering all the information about the author August just pulled out of his butt and shared with everyone in this episode. Not that how he knows any of this makes a lick of sense, but TS;TW.)

 

And I really, really would prefer if her turning her life around after that and making the right choices was because she's awesome, not because magic gives her no other choice. This is one bit of evidence that supports my theory, so basically, I'm doing a la-la-la-not listening thing here, and her crime spree was totally a sign that she has normal human levels of dark capability, just like everyone else.

Ya, I agree. I think the whole sucking the darkness out of Emma is contrived, stupid, and it too easily can be used to diminish Emma's strength of character and her ability to pick herself back up from nothing without turning into a evil murdering villain. But I think the whole "You must guide her to stay on the side of good" is what gives us that out that everything Emma did wasn't just because she's only sunshine and rainbows on the inside. She was corruptible and was corrupted by people around her. Even if she was often only doing bad things because it was the only way she knew and was taught to survive, she did at some point turn herself around and was doing well for herself while on the straight and narrow. She chose to be good and chose the side of light, as it were even though she had been corrupted by bad people. Since Emma was corrupted that essentially put the darkness back in her, so whether what The Apprentice did is true or not is moot. (FWiW, I think he did suck the darkness out of her and put into egg!Lily.) And once again, Snowing, you're plan was pointless, dumb, selfish, and twisted! I hope if egg!Lily ever crosses path with Snowing she rips them a new hole!

 

That's my headcanon anyways, and I'm sticking to it! It's the only way of looking at this that I've found which makes any of this make an iota of sense.

 

ETA:

They also stole the key-chain which was just for fun.

Nealfire stole the keychain (and got caught, that's why they had to run from the store) and Emma didn't know anything about it until he was like "Yuk, yuk, I got you something." *blech* Emma stole some food.

 

There are millions of undocumented workers in the US. I don't think Neal would have had a problem getting a job since he managed to get one when he had absolutely no documentation at all and was entirely new to our world.

 

Well, Nealfire had a job prior to meeting Emma, but the douche canoe ripped off the store for those 20K worth of watches and was caught on camera. So Nealfire had wanted posters with his face on them which made it way harder to get a job than if you are just some unknown illegal.

Edited March 31, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

I guess my image of someone with absolutely zero darkness because of magic would be your stereotypical Disney princess -- the kind of person the Amy Adams character was spoofing in the movie Enchanted. Emma is a good person but still the antithesis of that. A Disney princess isn't going to get out a chainsaw when she's mad at someone. She's not going to have fun stealing from people (if she has to do it to survive, she'd feel bad about it). Maybe they have different definitions of what it means -- it's awfully poorly defined at the moment -- but Emma is human and real and flawed, which means she does have at least a little capacity for darkness that she chooses to turn away from and make the right choice. Being light because you have no darkness in you isn't nearly as interesting as someone who can be as dark as anyone and chooses not to be, and if at the end of all this we learn that Emma really has had her darkness removed all this time, I may be done with this show.

 

Though it would be fun to see either a fantasy/dream scene or a brief AU in which we get a Giselle-like Emma who has no concept of darkness, just because it would be really funny.

[MedievalGirl]

I think there is a reason they have placed the fairy backs just after the wedding. The showrunners didn't have to choose that time frame but I think it is important. In the previous months Snowing fought a huge war against Regina and George, been threatened again by Regina, their wedding was disrupted, and now they are being told crappy stuff about their kid. Charming's dealings with Mal would have been in recent memory too. I really think Snow and to a lesser extent Charming have PTSD. They may have won the war and had part of a happy day but it still sucks to be them. I think that accounts or their poor decision making. I mean if "we were cursed" "I've changed" and "the author made me" are get out of jail free cards then so should soul crushing stress.  I like that things are messy for them.

I love that this episode started with an adventure in the forest with Snow and Charming. It is kind of cool that non-virgins can even get close to a unicorn in this mythology. 
The meta of the book and how stories are transmitted was something I was always curious about. I love that storytellers of our world are Authors. I could be an Author. 

 

[YaddaYadda]

Emma is a good person but still the antithesis of that.

 

But Emma is not a Disney princess.  She is a real world person who lived a really difficult life.  She had every day experiences and some not every day experiences and when she thought she finally found a home with Ingrid, she was pushed in front of a moving car to force her to use her magic.  Emma was never portrayed as a Disney princess.  Aurora in the Once universe is still a Disney princess, even in Storybrooke, she's still exactly that.  Emma?  No.

[Shanna Marie]

But Emma is not a Disney princess.  She is a real world person who lived a really difficult life.

Exactly. And what I'm saying is that if you magically remove all darkness from a person, you get a Disney princess, not a real person. So maybe the spell was fake all along and Emma turned out the way she did because she's awesome, not because her parents had this stupid spell done. That's even what the Apprentice seemed to be saying afterward -- so maybe that's when he got past the part where he was being controlled by the Author and retained enough free will to be able to warn them that it was still up to them to bring up their daughter properly instead of just relying on the fact that she had her darkness removed.

 

Of course, there's also the extreme silliness of a fetus even having any darkness to remove. Was it removing the capacity for darkness? But if that's the case, then how could she later become dark, no matter what happened in her life?

 

ARRRGGGHHH. This plot gives me a headache if I think too much about it.

[Dani-Ellie]

I get what you're saying, but I think you're forgetting the bit at the end of The Apprentice/Snowing flashback where The Apprentice told Snowing that Emma still could go dark so they had to guide her to make sure she stayed in the light. Meaning, Emma was still corruptible.

 

This. I took that to mean that whatever the spell did (assuming it in actuality did anything) tipped the scales more in favor of light than dark but because free will is a thing that exists, it's not certain. Emma could always grow to choose the dark path, which was why she needed her parents to guide her toward the light path.

 

We know that Emma grew up with absolutely no guidance whatsoever. She still grew up to be a good person on her own because she chose to be. Because she grew up around darkness and decided that was not how she wanted to live her life. She did not want to inflict on others the pain that was inflicted on her, she did not want others to live through the same things she did. She has shades of gray, of course, but she's still fundamentally a good person and that's completely on her.

[FabulousTater]

I took that to mean that whatever the spell did (assuming it in actuality did anything) tipped the scales more in favor of light than dark but because free will is a thing that exists, it's not certain. Emma could always grow to choose the dark path, which was why she needed her parents to guide her toward the light path.

That's one of the things that really pisses me off about Snowing's actions here. Snowing's stupid-capade did nothing to change Emma's light/dark struggle that every single person deals with, and as a whole their actions actually did more harm than good. For one, they dumped a bunch of darkness into another innocent being out of sheer hubris and selfishness (and IMO it was kinda evil), and as far as they knew they could have been creating a monster far worse than Emma could ever be -- It's a being with twice the inherent darkness than any other being, FFS. And they stole a baby from it's mother. Once again, A+ job, Snowing.

 

And second, it gained Emma nothing. She wasn't born permanently good, she didn't get a guarantee that her life would be all sunshine and rainbows. She was still corrupted by dark influences (though she managed to turn herself around to good), and she still suffered far more than her fair share of pain and misery (and BTW, give me Emma with a chainsaw anytime over some prattling sunshine and rainbows princess. I love Emma as she is, cynical and flawed and all, thank you very much). It's not like people who succumb to darkness are the only ones to feel pain, so I don't know what the hell Snowing thought they were saving fetus!Emma from. It was all so, so, sooooo stupid.

 

Snowing were written as so horridly arrogant and painfully dumb that the writers unlocked a whole new achievement level of stupid for this show. It's more than just giving Snowing The Idiot Ball and having them run with it. Snowing got The Idiot Ball, had it enlarged, bronzed and circumnavigated the globe with it like the Olympic torch.

Edited March 31, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Souris]

I feel bad for Ginny and Josh, having their characters torched simply to make Regina and other villains look better by comparison. Every character gets sacrificed on the altar of Regina.

[Zuleikha]

I feel bad for Ginny and Josh, having their characters torched simply to make Regina and other villains look better by comparison. Every character gets sacrificed on the altar of Regina.

 

Regina has nothing to do with this plotline. If it's to make anyone look better, it's Maleficent, whose only other redeeming values are that she rocks a do-not-give-a-f**k hairstyle and has inventive drug addictions. People who like Regina already liked her and didn't need Snowing's characters trashed. People who don't like her aren't going to be convinced to start just because they don't like Snowing. Regina hasn't even been involved in the egg!baby storyline even though she and Maleficent have been repairing a complicated friendship, so she certainly could have been written good moments if the writers primary concern was to make her look better.

[Mari]

I feel bad for Ginny and Josh, having their characters torched simply to make Regina and other villains look better by comparison. Every character gets sacrificed on the altar of Regina.

 

 

Regina has nothing to do with this plotline. If it's to make anyone look better, it's Maleficent, whose only other redeeming values are that she rocks a do-not-give-a-f**k hairstyle and has inventive drug addictions.

It may not be successfully translating on screen, but A&E have actually made that comparison in interviews about the season.  Based on what they--and Parilla--have said, it is the intent of 4B to do that.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I feel bad for Ginny and Josh, having their characters torched simply to make Regina and other villains look better by comparison. Every character gets sacrificed on the altar of Regina.

If their intent is to make characters gray as opposed to black and white, then a better way to do that is to focus on their humanity. They don't need people who are popular for being famously good to do downright wicked things or vice versa to tell us it's not so cut and dry. Just show their faults and natural reactions to non-ideal circumstances.

 

In S1, Once did an excellent job of mixing realistic personalities (Storybrooke) with fairy tales (flashbacks). Mayor Mills was evil, but she was also a single mom trying to keep her son. Snow was a kind-hearted hero, but she was also an elementary teacher with difficulties in her love life. Emma was the Savior, but she also had issues believing in her destiny. None of these characters had to steal babies or pull light magic out of nothing to show us they weren't strictly "heroes" or "villains".

 

Everything is so artificially contrived now just to get the writers' points across. If the showrunners want us to know something, they'll hit it over us like a sledgehammer.

Edited April 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I just realized that the reason Ursula and Cruella fell into the portal along with the egg of evilness was because of the incantation from the Apprentice and how he it talked about darkness being banished to different shores.  So, Ursula was actually right when she said that she was banished into this land.  She and Cruella along with that baby which is apparently imbued with darkness all fell into the portal, but Snowing didn't even though they were standing right there next to them.

 

If the Peddler had nothing to do with Snowing's choices, he definitely knew what buttons to push and what words to say to get Snowing to do what they did.  Again, he is taking account of the story, therefore, he must know that Mal wanted to form an alliance with Snowing to thwart Regina's plans.  Since he's writing the story, then he knows the story and he is using that knowledge to manipulate the story.  As the Apprentice said, the man broke the rules.

 

Also, the page that the Peddler is writing right before he gets stuck in the book, when the camera zooms in, you see the words evil queen towards the bottom of the page, so who knows what he was writing.

[KAOS Agent]

The page reads as follows:

 

"…her face still a visage of regret and shame, could not be bothered (or burdened - not sure) by such a cursory thing and walked right through it. 'There was no way we could have known. The Apprentice hid the truth from us,' the prince tried once again to assure her. Inside, he felt as she did, but pangs of helplessness at the sight of his love so forlorn compelled him to comfort her. She was about to reply when a bluebird settled on a branch up ahead. The princess averted her gaze. She imagined its whispers of judgment in her ear echoing her own disappointment in her actions and was relieved when the bird flew off rather than perch on her shoulder. She had thought before that she had known true depths of sorrow with the heinousness of the evil queen’s betrayal of her family. But in that moment the princess knew that the greatest betrayal of all is that of a lie."

Edited April 1, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Thanks for the transcript.  Even the props are jibberish.  Yeah, and a lie is worse than murdering someone's father.  Got it.

 

At the time, I actually liked the part when the peddlar suggested Snow and Charming walk down a path until they get an old man's cottage.  That felt really fairy-tale-ish to me.  

 

In fairytales, kindness is rewarded, but not so much on this show.  Rumple was tricked by a beggar who he had pity for, and this time, Snow and Charming helps a peddler out and fall right into his trap.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, and a lie is worse than murdering someone's father.  Got it.

It's probably referring to Snow's thinking rather than actual truth. It lines up with her behavior in the episode pretty well. What's funny though is that she never lied in the flashbacks.

Edited April 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

The issue with the show is, they completely fail to make a story where the "hero's" can do bad, and the "villains" can be good. They are writing a story where everyone can be an asshole, but the villains get excuses, and the hero's get guilt. The writers are so clearly more interested in the villains, that they end up either not being interested in the heroes, or they make them look like jerks, to make the villains into victims. 

 

Basically, they suck at actual moral ambiguity. Their obsession with labeling people as "hero's" and "villains" and "good" and "evil" has majorly backfired. This show mostly takes place in the "real "world" now. There are certainly real people who are extremely good and kind, and there are certainly people who are extremely evil and cruel, but most people are a combination of good and bad. Heroes and villains are harder to label, and this show is kind of trying to acknowledge that, but not really. It cant give its hero's real character flaws, it just makes them do random "evil" things to the villains, proving that they have darkness in them, or some crap, while if a villain has something bad happen to them, or they show some compassion or love, then they must be forgiven. Its not moral ambiguity, its just...stuff happening. Only, most of the evil stuff is not that evil (exception of this Snowing thing, but with the author, it complicates things a lot), and the villains do such awful things, its hard to forgive and forget, no matter how sad the back story. 

 

Its like they are trying to apply fairy tale logic to the real world, and its not working. They aren't writing complex characters, they're writing characters that do good or evil things based on what the plot needs them to do.  

[AudienceofOne]

I'm not sure why everyone is unhappy regarding the author revelation and how there is no free will, when August quite obviously pointed out and the apprentice did too, that the author job is to record events, they are not allowed to intervene or change them as they record them. It was obvious that this author did (I wonder if this was a jab at Fanfiction authors? anyone know the ep's stand regarding fanfiction?) and so he was punished.

 

 

 

Because it doesn't make any damn sense.  You either have free will or you don't. I liked the idea of the Author as a chronicler because it explained for the first time why these stories exist in our realm. That's been kind of a bit of an elephant in the room. But this is just trying to have it both ways. If you have free will only because someone chooses to give it to you then it's not free will. By definition. And if we can't suspend disbelief enough to ascribe to these characters free will then the story we're being told becomes inherently meaningless.

 

Not only that, but the writers end up tying themselves up into ridiculous knots trying to make the plot make sense and they inevitably fail leaving the audience disatisfied. There is an analogy in real life that I won't mention because I'm sure it would offend some people. But there's a reason why these kinds of contradictions only exist in literature aimed at readers who don't care it doesn't make sense.

Edited April 1, 2015 by AudienceofOne

[Camera One]

Why is the Rogue Author able to remove free will from The Sorcerer's Apprentice, of all people?  When he was hired by the Sorcerer through that Apprentice, who is pretty much the dumbest and most helpless and incompetent assistant of all time at this point.  And if the Rogue Author was able to put words into the Apprentice's mouth, "making" him throw the baby into the portal, then why did the Rogue Author choose not to control Snow and Charming too?   And he can read their minds and write their feelings down?  The Enchanted Forest needs a Privacy Commissioner stat.

[FabulousTater]

The page reads as follows:

 

"…her face still a visage of regret and shame, could not be bothered (or burdened - not sure) by such a cursory thing and walked right through it. 'There was no way we could have known. The Apprentice hid the truth from us,' the prince tried once again to assure her. Inside, he felt as she did, but pangs of helplessness at the sight of his love so forlorn compelled him to comfort her. She was about to reply when a bluebird settled on a branch up ahead. The princess averted her gaze. She imagined its whispers of judgment in her ear echoing her own disappointment in her actions and was relieved when the bird flew off rather than perch on her shoulder. She had thought before that she had known true depths of sorrow with the heinousness of the evil queen’s betrayal of her family. But in that moment the princess knew that the greatest betrayal of all is that of a lie."

Actually, I think that last line might reads as

 

"But in that moment the princess knew that the greatest betrayal of all is that of a hero"

 

It's hard to tell because the shot cuts away before he finshes writing the word, but it looks to me like the word being spelled out is "hero" and not "lie". YMMV.

 

Here's what I'm looking at: here, here (zoomed in), and here (zoomed in and sharpened).

Edited April 1, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

It probably is hero, but it still doesn't make any sense. The greatest betrayal of all is that of a hero? Not really. Baelfire saw his father as the villain he was and not keeping his promise to follow Bae was the greatest betrayal he could have had. It has nothing to do with heroes or villains, but rather those in whom we put our trust.

Edited April 1, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[FabulousTater]

Ya, IA, and I'm not claiming the word "hero" makes any more sense than "lie". I'm just reporting what I'm seeing...if anyone cares.. ;-)
 
ETA: Well, after some thought...If the word is "hero" maybe it means that the greatest betrayal of all is from those that you expect not to betray you? Like, you expect betrayal from the Evil Queen even though Snow hoped for better. But no one expects The Spanish Inquisition, err, I mean, a "hero" to betray you because you trust them. So that's why it's the greatest betrayal of all???
 
I don't know. It's This Show. It's These Writers. I feel like I've been watching this show so damn long that I've earned a degree in interpreting stupid, and yet...

Edited April 1, 2015 by FabulousTater

[regularlyleaded]

I have finally watched this episode. You guys made it sound so bad that I had to know what all the hubbub was about. And now I know. You all were right. Some things can't be unseen, can they?
 

This. I took that to mean that whatever the spell did (assuming it in actuality did anything) tipped the scales more in favor of light than dark but because free will is a thing that exists, it's not certain. Emma could always grow to choose the dark path, which was why she needed her parents to guide her toward the light path.
 
We know that Emma grew up with absolutely no guidance whatsoever. She still grew up to be a good person on her own because she chose to be. Because she grew up around darkness and decided that was not how she wanted to live her life. She did not want to inflict on others the pain that was inflicted on her, she did not want others to live through the same things she did. She has shades of gray, of course, but she's still fundamentally a good person and that's completely on her.

I agree. This was the way I interpreted the situation as well (that is to say, it's the best way I could think of interpreting events that didn't make my head explode with a migraine from trying to reconcile all the nonsense being thrown about ). 

 

I really, really would prefer if [Emma] turning her life around after that and making the right choices was because she's awesome, not because magic gives her no other choice.

I agree.

Personally I’m subscribing to the idea that over time, as Emma gave into the dark influences around her, that darkness became a part of her (she internalized it) and it permanently corrupted the pure goodness she was born with, and so she truly is like everyone else; she carries inside her both goodness and darkness.

Just as I can’t unsee this episode (and “Kansas” and “Bleeding Through” and oh so many other wholly unpleasant episodes of this show), Emma can’t disown that darkness that she has let in. She can struggle against succumbing to it again because she does have free will, but it will always be a part of her. It’s sort of what Hook said in the prior episode, it’s all too easy to slip back into the darkness once it’s been a part of you. So, contrary to Henry (who needs to shut up and go away) yes, you can “Un-savior the Savior”. If these people have free will, then Emma is The Savior because she chooses to take on that mantle and do good, but she can just as easily choose to remove it and go down a different or darker path. (BTW, Who the hell asked you for your opinion, Truest Stupid?! Rumpelstiltskin can and will find a way, so shut it. How about you just sit there quietly and think about not ripping your own heart out and giving it away, and leave this conversation to the adults and the people who haven’t stupidly given away their own vital organs because they were overcome by delusions of grandeur! )

The Apprentice said Emma had to be guided to remain good and that’s because (IMO) the removal of her inherent darkness wasn't a deterrent against all darkness, and it didn't guarantee that darkness couldn't regain a foothold within her. The spell allowed Emma to start life in the position of pure goodness, but because of free will, how much of that goodness she retained (or in other words, how much darkness she allowed in) was up to her. Since Emma's childhood and adolescence was nothing but bad influences after bad influences, then that advantage was rendered completely meaningless. In spite of Snow and Charming's, well, let’s call them “ill-advised” actions (I’m being generous today), Emma is like everyone else, and like everyone else she struggles with those normal human levels of darkness.

(On a related note: I tend to think that had Emma been raised by good people, she still would’ve lost that pure goodness and gained normal human levels of darkness because growing up is essentially about the loss of innocence as you’re exposed to the darkness in the world and the harshness of reality (as well as an awareness of one’s own flaws and fallibility ). There’s simply no way to protect children from every dark or evil thing in the world no matter how hard you try. IMO, Snowing (at best) achieved a pyrrhic victory in removing Emma’s inherent darkness before birth.)

With all that said, I’m also of the opinion that the writers haven't given this much thought, and that's because these writers don’t do consequences. Many events that have occurred on this show should have had permanent ramifications, but on this show, characters are only affected (at most) for the duration of the half-season arc. Afterwards, nothing. It’s as if it never happened. The things that stick are those that the plot requires to stick. I think all of this talk concerning Emma’s magical goodness is something the writers didn’t fully consider and probably don’t care about it (that is, no more so than their usual “shiny plot bunny!” interest). And if they did consider it, I feel confident in saying that it won't mean a darn thing by the end of the season and it will have been completely forgotten by the start of the next season (assuming the show is getting a season 5 pickup).

[kili]

It's hard to tell because the shot cuts away before he finshes writing the word, but it looks to me like the word being spelled out is "hero" and not "lie". YMMV.

 

Maybe the sentence isn't finished because the Author gets surprised by the Apprentice? In the screen grabs FabulousTater posted, it does look more like "her" than "lie", but I don't really see an "o". Neither "hero" nor "lie" make any sense, but neither does the Author plot so I'm not ready to rule out either word based on logic.

 

If the sentence isn't finished, let's play fill in the blanks:

 

"But in that moment the princess knew that the greatest betrayal of all is that of a her...." hermit? (the apprentice!), herdsman (she's totally blaming Charming!), heredity (it's her Evil White genes causing mayhem!), herpetologist (she's blaming her victim!)

 

If that "a" wasn't there, it might make sense if it was the start of "herself" or "her principles"

[pezgirl7]

I see a bit of an O after HER, so I do think it's hero. My take on it is similar to what some others have said. That heroes are not meant to lie, so when they do, it's a bigger betrayal than when a villain lies. I actually didn't think the book passage was that bad. I kind of liked the grandiose, overly dramatic, fairy tale style it was written in.

[kili]

My take on it is similar to what some others have said. That heroes are not meant to lie, so when they do, it's a bigger betrayal than when a villain lies.

 

I can see why nobody wants to be a hero. Endless abuse from the villains, happy endings constantly being yanked (and nobody fights for your happy ending) and you make one mistake and it's the moral equivalent to all the crap they bad guys have pulled.  Meanwhile, villains can have lots of fun, any abuse of them is evil, they get instant forgiveness no matter how bad they have been and it is the responsibility of everybody else to get you your happy ending.

[Shanna Marie]

I can see why nobody wants to be a hero. Endless abuse from the villains, happy endings constantly being yanked (and nobody fights for your happy ending) and you make one mistake and it's the moral equivalent to all the crap they bad guys have pulled.  Meanwhile, villains can have lots of fun, any abuse of them is evil, they get instant forgiveness no matter how bad they have been and it is the responsibility of everybody else to get you your happy ending.

Plus, the villains get their sins mitigated by their sob stories, with any sad things they've gone through taking away from their evil, while heroes' sad lives aren't counted at all. If this story line had been the backstory of some bad deed a villain had done, we'd have been reminded in excruciating detail of all the horrors Snow had gone through at Regina's hands to explain why she probably had a raging case of PTSD and just couldn't cope with the idea of facing any more darkness.

[KAOS Agent]

Honestly, I feel like the writers listened to "Enter Sandman" one too many times and thought we should totally write that. Maleficent is an actual sandman, there's an attempt to keep a child free from sin, and don't forget the heavy thoughts, dragon's fire and liars. OUAT brought to you by Metallica.

 

"Tuck you in, warm within

Keep you free from sin

'Til the sandman he comes"  

 

"Something's wrong, shut the light

Heavy thoughts tonight

And they aren't of Snow White

Dreams of war, dreams of liars
Dreams of dragon's fire

And of things that will bite"

[Shanna Marie]

Something just occurred to me: Wasn't Hook there sitting next to Emma when her parents told her the truth about Maleficent? Well, at least he was there at the end after she was told. We don't know about during since we didn't get to see it. But then that means there were likely two scenes we didn't get to see, since not only was there the part where they told her, but I'd imagine there was also a part where they negotiated his presence. It seems unlikely, especially given the way David was talking about him in the previous episode, that they'd have been overly keen on talking about this in front of him. Did Emma play the "anything you have to say, you can say in front of him" card? If so, how did she know it was going to be one of those things? Did they not notice he was there? Did they actually decide to tell the both of them, maybe thinking that either she would need Hook or that he might provide a moderating influence?

 

(Or am I imagining it? I have a mental image of him sitting next to her when we saw her reaction to the scene we didn't see, but I don't care to rewatch this one to get to near the end to check.)

[Camera One]

Yes, he was there.  She snapped at him when she stormed out.  And then later, apparently, Snow and Charming sent him after Emma to make sure she's okay.  Considering this info is relevant to "fighting" Rumple and the Queens, I think Snow and Charming would want Hook to know as well.

[OnceUponAJen]

Yes, he was there and asked her if she was ok, and tried to take her hand. Seeing as how they later sent him to the docks to talk with her, I think they realize that he's important to her and she trusts him.