Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[Arwen Evenstar]

Sorry..just couldn't resist

http://duggarmemes.tumblr.com/image/106272816141

[Defrauder]

War Room was a hit Christian movie last year. It's basically another way to refer to a prayer closet (the war being a spiritual one).

Oh God how unfortunate but thank you for the answer.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Defrauder

[becca3891]

David Waller's you tube channel updated yesterday takes us through Priscilla's fantasy life as she films the crew working on the house.  It's can't miss video that may top them all people.  2 young children wandering through a construction zone carrying pointy objects, someone working on a room he calls the war room, and David looking absolutely miserable and over his head while Priscilla keeps filming in her sing sing voice telling everyone how blessed they are.  No wonder she gave David a pregnancy note, he looks devastated. 

 

Hahaha! I love it about halfway through when Priscilla says, "War roooom!" and David says through clenched teeth, "Tonight?" His annoyance is so evident and whoever it was who said he acts like he's dealing with an annoying toddler was spot on. I'm not sure where I stand regarding whether or not he actually has a cruel streak. For sweet, simple, brainwashed and Kool-Aid drenched Pris's sake, I really hope not but we'll probably never know.

 

A 45 minute hair tutorial from JRod. I got through about five minutes, after which I had to turn it off when she plastered a poor little boy's hair with half a can of hairspray, then topped it off with some mousse, then another coating of shellack for good measure! I think they may use more hairspray than the Duggars! 

 

 

You don't have to watch it; I just want to prove that this craziness actually exists! LOL

Editing to say: I got sucked into this like the worst kind of train wreck imaginable!!! Wow. Just wow. I feel so badly for the older Rodrigues girls. They make the Duggar girls, even at their most awkward, look so worldly, cool and sophisticated. But it's not just their frumpiness. What worries me are their truly bizarre speech patterns. I'm not sure whether it's just that they have no exposure to the world, or whether they have learning issues. Check out the girl at exactly the 18 minute mark! They all tend to say "Hiiiii" and "Thank you" in an impossibly high-pitched singsong which is truly bizarre. Help me, I can't stop watching!

Edited February 24, 2016 by becca3891

[Churchhoney]

Hmmm. I called David a Hitler Youth with a lobotomy pick in his back pocket, so not sure if I could top that descriptions. Unfortunately, the Lord did not just so happen to ordain me large, jolly, or black, nor did he laid it upon my heart to become a policeman, so i've run out of jollyness an wit for the day.

 

 

 

I'll say it again - as snarkworthy and as easy as those to make it to poke fun - DAVID SCARES ME. Like seriously, he's scary. Like the love child of Dr. Mengele and Deloris Umbridge. On top of all that blond hair and grinning, he just comes off as having a really unnerving, underlying cruel and malicious streak, and I fear for Priscilla. He seems like the type who would torment her, just because he can. He'd also blame her for any problem or unhappiness, and torment her further. She's trying her hardest, and we all have speculations about his leanings, in addition to him being so condescending and also really high up on the Gothard food chain. That says a lot about his loyalties and his character, and what it says scares me.

 

I get some scary vibe from David, too. But when I look at any of these cult kids, including him, I can't help but feel sorry for them because they've all had the same incredibly destructive warping that Priscilla has.

 

All of this from Fun Fundie -- "Repressing every single genuine human emotion takes a toll on one's bod. Carrying around and spouting relentless, unfelt joy, sweetness, and all those bombardments of blessings from the lord is a lot of work. Daily life is reduced to studying the bible. AGAIN. Being obsequiously grateful....ALL THE WHILE having to pretend to oneself that THIS life is is all you ever really wanted." -- applies just as much to David as it does to Priscilla. And even more so if he has the sexual leanings that many suspect, since then he couldn't help but believe somewhere down inside that he truly is some sort of satanic creature. And if that's the case, he's surely had that conviction since he was a young kid -- so no wonder he looks ready to explode and turns fury on poor Priscilla, who must obscurely symbolize for him the whole godly thing that he simply can't be, no matter how hard he tried all his life.

 

No wonder he's cold and covered in armor -- in his world there's no way for him to be anything else without being damned, and in the worst way possible, I'm sure, in the opinion of his family and everyone else he's ever known. It surely can't be any easier for David to live the Gothard life than it is for Priscilla to live it, and I suspect it may actually be harder. So he's armored himself to the point of becoming a hard and horrible person. But unless he had rejected his family -- which is very very hard for many people to do -- I doubt that he could find an alternative. I'd interpret his hardline Gothardism as probably first and foremost a mad attempt to squelch himself -- an attempt that he embarked on quite young and that he has to keep up with great intensity or lose it. And unfortunately, I'd guess he was born one of those people pleasers who just couldn't simply leave his family and its "values." That's the "winsome" part of him as a little kid, I would guess -- part natural winsomeness and part being as ingratiating as he could, knowing that they'd see his real self as a black unredeemable horror if they actually noticed what it was.

 

I can't really snark on this couple or dislike either of them either, really, because I think they may be about the worst sufferers of the whole lot we know of, given what we see of Priscilla's nature and what we suspect of David's. They've been forced to live horrible lives for no reason except to satisfy somebody else's need to control the whole world by squashing their children into unrecognizable shapes. And the kids are left to try to navigate the world that way, with all their damages, and they get blamed, in his case, or made fun of, in hers. I actually think they're both trying as hard as they can to make the unworkable work, and I sure hope they can avoid disaster, although I doubt that's likely.

 

And, adding insult to injury, people who claim that they think homosexuality or gender differences are fine make tremendous fun of him for the way he is. It's not just his family and the Gothardites but supposed liberals who snark on his too-feminine-for-them being. If he's ever caught wind of this -- and I expect he has, since most of them probably know more about what we say than they let on -- how can that not simply confirm for him that his nature truly is despicable? The whole world is putting it down, including those who would say "not that there's anything wrong with that."

 

Too depressing to think about really, for me.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

I don't know if Priscilla knows how weird the whole situation is. She may think she's got her fantasy life. Deep down I think David knows he doesn't feel the way he thinks he should.

[Fuzzysox]

Jill R. looks good for having had 12 kids. Umm the video is a selling point to get her girls married off. I think it's Jill's end goal to have one of her girls married to fundie royality. If Jill was a gypsy (the already have the traveler part down pat) she would fit right in to their beliefs that girls get married at 15/16. 

[Barb23]

I think the little area at the top of the steps would make a perfect prayer closet. I was actually holding my breath when I thought Paul was going to blind his sister by sticking the pointed corner of the tile/board into her eye. Like we've said, I really believe these people do have God & angels watching out for them. After watching the video, I agree with the poster who said that David is the type that would torture Pris just because he could. He's really starting to scare me, too.

[Arwen Evenstar]

If David actually has leanings, yes Churchie, it's a most horrible burden for hm to bear. Just like Josh had to go to RU to "pray it away", Growing Up Gothard won't allow David to be who he is.

Even though he sets off my Gaydar, there are plenty of straight men who are more delicate in build and mannerisms...even possibly effeminate...

I can only imagine the sort of bullying he got in Fundie circles. Most of us outside of Gothard willingly and lovingly accept lgbt folk with open arms. Anyone who had to grow up like he did would have to stay in the closet just to survive.

[riverblue22]

Wow, those poor Rodriguez girls!  One looked like she was about 14--all made up and ready for marriage!  For a family like this, finding husbands for their daughters is really imperative--they just can't afford to have SAHD hanging around.  There must be a lot of pressure all around the cult for the daughters to look better than their best and hope they can snag a Keilen or a Bates or a Paine son.  And how can they get their sons ready for supporting themselves?  It's not like they can grow a printing business that is barely alive in the first place.

[BitterApple]

Jill reminds me of one of those creepy stage moms who'd make her underage daughter sleep with directors to get acting roles. The way she was helping her daughter get tarted up gave me weird vibes.

[riverblue22]

Jill reminds me of one of those creepy stage moms who'd make her underage daughter sleep with directors to get acting roles. The way she was helping her daughter get tarted up gave me weird vibes.

 

Agree, if Gothard was still running things she'd offer up any one of her daughters.  And he would decline.

[kokapetl]

The whole thing seems like it was filmed in 1993, the hair, the clothes, the pinkish nineties camcorder quality of the footage.

[RazzleberryPie]

Jill reminds me of one of those creepy stage moms who'd make her underage daughter sleep with directors to get acting roles. The way she was helping her daughter get tarted up gave me weird vibes.

Was this supposed to go inter dance moms? I've always thought that about Melissa.

Back to Duggar friends - I think Priscilla's struggle is partly due to her seeing that she has all the pieces of perfect Gothard life, but everything isn't hunky dory and she can't process why, except Sin. They're following the formula to a T, but that formula is just that - a formula that refuses to factor in feelings, emotions, outside influences, etc.

If David actually has leanings, yes Churchie, it's a most horrible burden for hm to bear. Just like Josh had to go to RU to "pray it away", Growing Up Gothard won't allow David to be who he is.

Even though he sets off my Gaydar, there are plenty of straight men who are more delicate in build and mannerisms...even possibly effeminate...

I can only imagine the sort of bullying he got in Fundie circles. Most of us outside of Gothard willingly and lovingly accept lgbt folk with open arms. Anyone who had to grow up like he did would have to stay in the closet just to survive.

His condescending attitude won't help him being liked anywhere, either. I think the family spent a lot of time wth foreign missions, and I can't imagine how that would go over in much of the world - if I were in a developing country that wasn't Christian, and these weird acting, condescending, robotic, white people kept coming around, I'd personally have a hide yo kids, hide yo wife moment and run.

I think the little area at the top of the steps would make a perfect prayer closet. I was actually holding my breath when I thought Paul was going to blind his sister by sticking the pointed corner of the tile/board into her eye. Like we've said, I really believe these people do have God & angels watching out for them. After watching the video, I agree with the poster who said that David is the type that would torture Pris just because he could. He's really starting to scare me, too.

So these people put their Harry Potter hole above the stairs and not under it?

[RazzleberryPie]

Yes!!!! OMG....Love child of Dr. Mengele and Dolores Umbridge...perfection! I got a second look at his photo and he definitely has a very smug Aryan look about him. Perhaps there's a reason Poor Simple Prissy compared marrying David to crucifiction...there's just something very cold about David Valler!

I can see him luring little children with sweets while walking them to gas chambers - all with that plastered grin and simpering voice - pat them on the head, just shove them in and lock the door.

[DangerousMinds]

Jill R. looks good for having had 12 kids. Umm the video is a selling point to get her girls married off. I think it's Jill's end goal to have one of her girls married to fundie royality. If Jill was a gypsy (the already have the traveler part down pat) she would fit right in to their beliefs that girls get married at 15/16. 

For all that work the girls put into doing their hair, they all still looked ridiculous. Curling the bangs? And just no to the shellacked style for the boys. They all looked better BEFORE messing with their hair.

Edited February 24, 2016 by DangerousMinds

[farmgal4]

I sure hope Paul outgrows his speech impediment and poor Davia begins to get cute as she gets older. Of course both of those kids are screwed if Pris tries to homeschool them.

I think the little area at the top of the steps would make a perfect prayer closet. I was actually holding my breath when I thought Paul was going to blind his sister by sticking the pointed corner of the tile/board into her eye. Like we've said, I really believe these people do have God & angels watching out for them. After watching the video, I agree with the poster who said that David is the type that would torture Pris just because he could. He's really starting to scare me, too.

Did you notice him slamming down tools and gritting his teeth?

[parisprincess]

I can't find it right now, but am I the only one who read on Yahoo this morning that Erin Bates Paine and Lawson both have turned their backs on the whole Gothard/ATI thing? Finally, someone from that group growing a brain and making their own choices rather than blindly following the teachings of that old pervert like the Duggars do.

Edited February 24, 2016 by parisprincess

[BradandJanet]

Hahaha! I love it about halfway through when Priscilla says, "War roooom!" and David says through clenched teeth, "Tonight?" His annoyance is so evident and whoever it was who said he acts like he's dealing with an annoying toddler was spot on. I'm not sure where I stand regarding whether or not he actually has a cruel streak. For sweet, simple, brainwashed and Kool-Aid drenched Pris's sake, I really hope not but we'll probably never know.

 

Editing to say: I got sucked into this like the worst kind of train wreck imaginable!!! Wow. Just wow. I feel so badly for the older Rodrigues girls. They make the Duggar girls, even at their most awkward, look so worldly, cool and sophisticated. But it's not just their frumpiness. What worries me are their truly bizarre speech patterns. I'm not sure whether it's just that they have no exposure to the world, or whether they have learning issues. Check out the girl at exactly the 18 minute mark! They all tend to say "Hiiiii" and "Thank you" in an impossibly high-pitched singsong which is truly bizarre. Help me, I can't stop watching!Oh

 

Oh, JRod. Can you imagine how filthy that bus is with all that combing, teasing, twisting, and spraying going on?

 

Those poor kids. The father grows fatter, the mother keeps getting pregnant, and they live in a bus and sing for a meal. 

[Churchhoney]

I can't find it right now, but am I the only one who read on Yahoo this morning that Erin Bates Paine and Lawson both have turned their backs on the whole Gothard/ATI thing? Finally, someone from that group growing a brain and making their own choices rather than blindly following the teachings of that old pervert like the Duggars do.

 

I expect that's just careless "reporting" and reliance on pandering bullshit fed them by the Reality TeeVee Stars on Yahoo's part, when it comes to Lawson, at least, although the meaning of Erin's recent pronouncements are harder to parse.

 

All Lawson has actually said, as far as I know, is that ATI and IBLP are no longer affiliated with Gothard and that his father knew nothing about the allegations against Gothard until recently. Both of those things are pure fiction -- ATI and IBLP may pretend to be delinked from Gothard but they're actually Gothard through and through. And, as far as I know, Lawson hasn't that the Bateses in general or he in particular aren't affiliated with ATI and IBLP.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BB_L7eqA4hH/

 

This is what the new freethinker Law Bates said: "IBLP and ATI are no longer affiliated with Mr. Gothard." (I note that both he and Erin still refer to the evil old bastard as "Mr. Gothard," just the way they always did.) He never disavows affiliation with the Gothard groups.

 

And then ... "My dad joined the board only 2 years ago and was as unaware of the accusations as anyone." .... Again -- parsing. Since plenty of Gothard people on the far fringes of the group have said that even they knew of those accusations decades ago. So unless Bates is exceptionally blind and stupid, he heard the same things everybody else did. And they wouldn't have invited him to join the board unless he were a very wholehearted supporter, if you ask me.

 

So -- I call bullshit, Yahoo.

[RazzleberryPie]

I can't find it right now, but am I the only one who read on Yahoo this morning that Erin Bates Paine and Lawson both have turned their backs on the whole Gothard/ATI thing? Finally, someone from that group growing a brain and making their own choices rather than blindly following the teachings of that old pervert like the Duggars do.

I think they'll still retain 90% of their upbringing, but will remain 'unaffiliated' with Mr G. I hope using birth control/ family planning - even if it is condoms and not the chemical pill - is part of their new belief system. God has given them the resources and the wisdom to avoid multiple miscarriages and very difficult pregnancies, so I hope they use it instead of endangering Erin's life.

[Aja]

 

So -- I call bullshit, Yahoo.

I do too. Spot-on post. I'd also add that, in Erin's case, if she truly wished to distance herself and her new family from Gothard, she should drop the cagey act and address the damn elephant in the room. "At the time of my wedding, we were unaware of the allegations, but now that we are, we are dropping the lunatic like a safe." Why won't anybody SAY that? Even if it's not completely true, it sounds WAY better than the totally transparent cries of  "We're totally new to this and didn't have any idea! And anyway ATI and IBLP don't have anything to do with Gothard even though Gothard created them and runs them and makes all the money off of them!" Why is it such a deadly sin to admit you MIGHT HAVE BEEN WRONG? It doesn't weaken your beliefs. A religious figure being exposed as a charlatan and a pervert? Bill Gothard isn't the first, and won't be the last. It doesn't make you a devil worshipper to openly and publicly admit you're leaving a freaking cult. The truth is they're all still terrified of "Mr. Gothard" and that's about as far as they're willing to go in terms of publicly slagging him off.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Aja

[BrakeLites]

Okay, that hair video is just weird. But the thing that struck me as the strangest was the bizarre setting of that opening "talking head." The two toasters with a teddy bear propped between them, the cord for one of the toasters draped over a wall sconce. I pictured all of those electrical cords--and more!!--plugged into one wall outlet with an old school, brown, fraying extension cord. If that's how they plug in kitchen appliances, imagine the myriad of hair tools stacked up the same way. Constantly tripping the breaker would be the least of the potential issues. Hope the smoke detectors work!    

[Aja]

  

I'm less aware of liberal folk snarking on The Fabulous One's effeminate nature. I take the snark as intended towards the hypocrisy of religion claiming to be all about love and acceptance, yet making anti transgender robocalls and giving a human like Winsome absolutely nowhere to go with his inherent leaning.

This. And not to get diverted into the bottomless, Fellini-esque pit of my existence, but it pings at me in a personal way because I am a gay lady who was married to a man for 20 years. While my determination to remain a faithful wife was self-imposed and not at all based in any kind of religion, and I did not face the risk of losing everyone I cared about when I finally came out after my divorce, I know what it is to be living like that. I know what "holy shit, I am NOT getting this right at all" and blaming yourself feels like, day in, day out, year after year after year, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, or David Waller.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Aja

[BitterApple]

Leah Messer from Teen Mom calls her twin daughter "girlses." It's a running joke on the TM2 forum. I'm guessing Jill's parents weren't big on the edumacation thing either.

[Churchhoney]

  

I'm less aware of liberal folk snarking on The Fabulous One's effeminate nature. I take the snark as intended towards the hypocrisy of religion claiming to be all about love and acceptance, yet making anti transgender robocalls and giving a human like Winsome absolutely nowhere to go with his inherent leaning.

 

Well, we obviously see it completely differently. To my eye, nowhere in the huge amounts of posted crap about "The Fabulous David Waller" and many many other remarks on his "fabulousness" and his clothes and on his winsomeness and the posting of pictures of him in an apron and so on have I seen anything that makes arguments about the hypocrisy of evangelical Christians.. Where is that, exactly, in snark about a guy's apron or the color of his shirts or in his arranging a wedding with musical-theater elements and so on?

 

Sure, there are many posts elsewhere around here that talk about the general intolerance of the Gothard community and similar communities but as far as I can tell they appear in completely different places than among the pure anti-David-Waller snark, which pretty much always describes some apparently feminine characteristics and laughs at them. If I saw a group of people routinely snarking on me as TFDW, I would interpret that as those people laughing at and looking down on my gender presentation. Maybe others wouldn't, but I would. And maybe it's not meant that way, but in my opinion that's the way it comes off.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

Okay, that hair video is just weird. But the thing that struck me as the strangest was the bizarre setting of that opening "talking head." The two toasters with a teddy bear propped between them, the cord for one of the toasters draped over a wall sconce. I pictured all of those electrical cords--and more!!--plugged into one wall outlet with an old school, brown, fraying extension cord. If that's how they plug in kitchen appliances, imagine the myriad of hair tools stacked up the same way. Constantly tripping the breaker would be the least of the potential issues. Hope the smoke detectors work!

Even worse, that was filmed in the motorhome.

[kokapetl]

Well, we obviously see it completely differently. To my eye, nowhere in the huge amounts of posted crap about "The Fabulous David Waller" and many many other remarks on his "fabulousness" and his clothes and on his winsomeness and the posting of pictures of him in an apron and so on have I seen anything that makes arguments about the hypocrisy of evangelical Christians.. Where is that, exactly, in snark about a guy's apron or the color of his shirts or in his arranging a wedding with musical-theater elements and so on?

Sure, there are many posts elsewhere around here that talk about the general intolerance of the Gothard community and similar communities but as far as I can tell they appear in completely different places than among the pure anti-David-Waller snark, which pretty much always describes some apparently feminine characteristics and laughs at them. If I saw a group of people routinely snarking on me as TFDW, I would interpret that as those people laughing at and looking down on my gender presentation. Maybe others wouldn't, but I would. And maybe it's not meant that way, but in my opinion that's the way it comes off.

I'm a gay man, three years older than David. Being gay is not easy, it's not always accommodated, even today. I may mock the Duggars, Kellers and Co on this forum, but I would never express any spite to these families or their supporters. They are flawed human beings like everyone else. We are not innately better or worse. I accept their limitations, I want win-win, or stalemate, but I don't want them to lose.

[Aja]

I kind of want Jim Bob and Michelle to lose, though. Just not any of the kids who had no say in being born into this nightmare.

ETA: As an athiest hippie heathen type, I was EXTREMELY committed and determined to be the wifiest wife who ever wifed and it had nothing to do with any kind of belief system. But Kokapetl is right, even in this day and age it can be difficult to deal with, you have to be extremely secure because you WILL get startling pushback from the places you least expected it, and that's completely WITHOUT throwing any Jesusy morality declarations into the mix. To this end, I feel dread in my heart for David Waller. When I see him talking to Priscilla through clenched teeth, his body language around her, what appears to be a vibe of barely-concealed rage, it frightens me, because I think I know what it is, and I also think there isn't, and never will be, anything he can do about it.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Aja

[Fuzzysox]

I'm perplexed, what kind of meetings does Jill R go to on a daily basis?

Another quesiton are they back on the road because grifting pays better then David working at his printing ministry?

[BitterApple]

I think being on the run, oops, I mean road, allows them to stay one step ahead of Child Services. Those kids look like they haven't eaten a decent meal in years.

[Churchhoney]

I kind of want Jim Bob and Michelle to lose, though. Just not any of the kids who had no say in being born into this nightmare.

 

 

Yeah, I want Jim Bob and Michelle to lose, too. They're old enough to know better and weren't indoctrinated into this junk. They chose it and have continued to choose it, year after year, when harms that it's done are right before their eyes. And it's not that I want them to lose in the sense of getting hurt. I want them to lose in the sense of realizing that they've done a lot of things that are wrong wrong wrong and harmful to many people. And then I want them to try to stop doing those things.

 

That's the very last thing that will ever happen, though, I expect.

[Aja]

Yeah, I want Jim Bob and Michelle to lose, too. They're old enough to know better and weren't indoctrinated into this junk. They chose it and have continued to choose it, year after year, when harms that it's done are right before their eyes. And it's not that I want them to lose in the sense of getting hurt. I want them to lose in the sense of realizing that they've done a lot of things that are wrong wrong wrong and harmful to many people. And then I want them to try to stop doing those things.

 

That's the very last thing that will ever happen, though, I expect.

That would be ideal, but I'd derive a great deal of satisfaction watching them disappear with their tails between their legs after being raked over the coals for being the abusive, narcissistic, criminally negligent parents that they are. Then they'll live out the rest of their days all bitter toward the heathens that just won't stop persecuting them. A much more likely scenario, but unfortunately, still pretty unlikely.

[Fuzzysox]

I think being on the run, oops, I mean road, allows them to stay one step ahead of Child Services. Those kids look like they haven't eaten a decent meal in years.

Sadly, I knew this would be the answer. I do hope someone notices the kids and gives them a better life.

[RazzleberryPie]

So here's another David question - do you guys think his clenched teeth anger is due to having homosexual feelings and having to marry a female, grin and bear it - literally. Like a serious inner struggle that comes out as thickly veiled anger at Priscilla

Or

Is he just a pompous, condescending asshat who would be that way towards a male spouse as well? Like Mitch on Modern Family, except amplified 10000x. That's a bad comparison, maybe, but the best way I can describe it. Or like Jessa - just all that anger and bullying personality, he just sugar costs it better.

[NewDigs]

So here's another David question - do you guys think his clenched teeth anger is due to having homosexual feelings and having to marry a female, grin and bear it - literally. Like a serious inner struggle that comes out as thickly veiled anger at Priscilla

Or

Is he just a pompous, condescending asshat who would be that way towards a male spouse as well? Like Mitch on Modern Family, except amplified 10000x. That's a bad comparison, maybe, but the best way I can describe it. Or like Jessa - just all that anger and bullying personality, he just sugar costs it better.

Is All of the Above an option?

[kokapetl]

I think he began to loathe her pretty soon after they married. Not because she's a woman, but because she's a simpering idiot.

[JoanArc]

I think he began to loathe her pretty soon after they married. Not because she's a woman, but because she's a simpering idiot.

Plus, he just loathed the idea of being married, and married to a woman, long before they met. Everything about their hooking up screams forced.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I think he began to loathe her pretty soon after they married. Not because she's a woman, but because she's a simpering idiot.

but don't fundies like their women to be sweet and simpering idiots after all if they just keep it sweet smile and look like a cocker spaniel that peed on the floor then they don't look smarter than their husbands

[Churchhoney]

So here's another David question - do you guys think his clenched teeth anger is due to having homosexual feelings and having to marry a female, grin and bear it - literally. Like a serious inner struggle that comes out as thickly veiled anger at Priscilla

Or

Is he just a pompous, condescending asshat who would be that way towards a male spouse as well? Like Mitch on Modern Family, except amplified 10000x. That's a bad comparison, maybe, but the best way I can describe it. Or like Jessa - just all that anger and bullying personality, he just sugar costs it better.

 

In my opinion, once somebody has reached his age with constant warping by a family as controlling and warped as the Wallers -- and especially if that person has traits that such a family would want squashed, whether they're sexual traits or a too active intelligence -- there would be literally no way to disentangle what aspects of his or her warpedness are natural parts of the personality and which have been hard-wired into the brain by a horrible environment.

 

So, to me, this is an unanswerable question. Maybe he was born with a propensity to be arrogant and nasty, but maybe he was turned into a creature full of coldness and rage by a lifetime of being told he's an evil sinner, believing it, and trying to repress that belief. How would we ever disentangle those potential causes, given what he's probably been through in that sick environment?

 

I say this as a person who has tried for decades to disentangle such causes in my own messedupness but who's finally concluded that it can't be done. And I know myself a heck of a lot better than any of us will ever know David Waller.

[RazzleberryPie]

I think he began to loathe her pretty soon after they married. Not because she's a woman, but because she's a simpering idiot.

I'm leaning toward this - and wonder why her? Did he think she'd be easy to control and non defiant, then learned she'd can't think for herself - partly due to intellectual capability, partly due to Gothard conditioning of never questioning your husbands choices and always putting them first? Then he resents that she's so compliant and that he doesn't want to reciprocate?

Did he get married just to have that big wedding - he seemed as I to it all as her. He could have fallen back in that 'better to be single and devoted to the Lord' verse if he really wanted to. Did he marry her to climb in ATI? Is Gothard the only one allowed to be single? A lot of churches informally don't really care for single ministers - they'd rather have them married and settled to avoid all the potential jealousies, instability, irresponsibility considered with a dating preacher vs a married man.

does he long for not having the responsibility of a wife and three kids, with no end of kids in site? That's a whole lot to take on, even though it's exactly what he grew up with and what he preaches.

Is this another victim or two of courting for a minute then being married and pregnant without knowing each other, or only knowing you want to court and abstain from sex until marriage? Was she that desperate to marry and he forced to marry?

They're just turning into such a mess, despite all the beaming smiles and blessing of encouragement and fellowships during those season of life, etc. Do they even know themselves they appear to the rest of us to be a ticking bomb?

I think he began to loathe her pretty soon after they married. Not because she's a woman, but because she's a simpering idiot.

I'm leaning toward this - and wonder why her? Did he think she'd be easy to control and non defiant, then learned she'd can't think for herself - partly due to intellectual capability, partly due to Gothard conditioning of never questioning your husbands choices and always putting them first? Then he resents that she's so compliant and that he doesn't want to reciprocate?

Did he get married just to have that big wedding - he seemed as I to it all as her. He could have fallen back in that 'better to be single and devoted to the Lord' verse if he really wanted to. Did he marry her to climb in ATI? Is Gothard the only one allowed to be single? A lot of churches informally don't really care for single ministers - they'd rather have them married and settled to avoid all the potential jealousies, instability, irresponsibility considered with a dating preacher vs a married man.

does he long for not having the responsibility of a wife and three kids, with no end of kids in site? That's a whole lot to take on, even though it's exactly what he grew up with and what he preaches.

Is this another victim or two of courting for a minute then being married and pregnant without knowing each other, or only knowing you want to court and abstain from sex until marriage? Was she that desperate to marry and he forced to marry?

They're just turning into such a mess, despite all the beaming smiles and blessing of encouragement and fellowships during those season of life, etc. Do they even know themselves they appear to the rest of us to be a ticking bomb?

[GeeGolly]

I'm a gay man, three years older than David. Being gay is not easy, it's not always accommodated, even today. I may mock the Duggars, Kellers and Co on this forum, but I would never express any spite to these families or their supporters. They are flawed human beings like everyone else. We are not innately better or worse. I accept their limitations, I want win-win, or stalemate, but I don't want them to lose.

First, when I first read this I thought you wrote, it's not always recommended. And second, I love the person that I think you are.

[Churchhoney]

Did he marry her to climb in ATI? Is Gothard the only one allowed to be single?

 

 

I would bet this is true.  (not that it'd be a sole motivation for DW, but I can't imagine Gothard encouraging other guys who aren't in the business of providing umbrellas of protection for new cohorts of the army...)

Edited February 25, 2016 by Churchhoney

[duggarshow]

I'm a gay man, three years older than David. Being gay is not easy, it's not always accommodated, even today. I may mock the Duggars, Kellers and Co on this forum, but I would never express any spite to these families or their supporters. They are flawed human beings like everyone else. We are not innately better or worse. I accept their limitations, I want win-win, or stalemate, but I don't want them to lose.

 

Applause!! Very well stated.

[BitterApple]

I definitely think you need to be married to move up in the Gothard hierarchy. Quite frankly, I think that's why Brandon Keilen caved and finally started courting Michaela. Guys like that get married because it's expected, not because they're madly in love and can't live without their chosen spouse. It's an even more traditional form of arranged marriage than a normal Gothard union.

[RazzleberryPie]

Somehow I feel like Michael Bates will unhinge the quickest out of all these women. Prisc will keep plugin' away, Anna will reason away any issues, Jessa will get meaner and stricter, but Micheael will lose it. She has a better, more reasonable support system, and has been allowed to think somewhat more than the rest.

[louannems]

I watched the whole Jill R hair video! I only had 3 kids and I never, ever did their hair up like that! I took them to church every week and they had clean, brushed hair. Maybe a barette for the daughter.

Those Rods are crazy. They teach their kids to talk crazy, too. I can see doing up their heads for a wedding. Maybe for Easter and Christmas. But for an evening church supper? Hell no!!!

The amount of aerosols in that RV is toxic. The disgusting amount of hairspray she sprayed on those children was recklessly unhealthy. Especially the 9 year old boy- the exceedingly excessive amount of hairspray she used on him is child abuse.

I hated every time JillR grabbed a little chin while she groomed those heads, yanking on their hair, twisting their heads from left to right in whiplash force; I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't leave pinch bruises on those cheeks!

Are the Rods Gothardites? Since when does "being well groomed for Jesus" necessitate liters of spray, mousse, gel, and pully rubber bands?

Another matchy family. Oh so godly.

How would even the daily logistics of 14 people going poop work out in an RV with I assume one toilet???

[Fuzzysox]

Jill was a hairdresser so it explains her love of hairspray. But I agree overly dressing for church is exhausting but I can see Jill desperate for some production comapony to come a calling after seeing them singing for Jesus at some church.

I can just imagine the pressure she puts on those kids to look polished at all times, very old school. I agree with her that you should always look your best but those kids are being treated like trained monkeys who are taught to grift in the name of their ministry.

I'd like to know if she is even homefooling them? When does she have time with 12 kids??

[queenanne]

I do too. Spot-on post. I'd also add that, in Erin's case, if she truly wished to distance herself and her new family from Gothard, she should drop the cagey act and address the damn elephant in the room. "At the time of my wedding, we were unaware of the allegations, but now that we are, we are dropping the lunatic like a safe." Why won't anybody SAY that? Even if it's not completely true, it sounds WAY better than the totally transparent cries of  "We're totally new to this and didn't have any idea! And anyway ATI and IBLP don't have anything to do with Gothard even though Gothard created them and runs them and makes all the money off of them!" Why is it such a deadly sin to admit you MIGHT HAVE BEEN WRONG? It doesn't weaken your beliefs. A religious figure being exposed as a charlatan and a pervert? Bill Gothard isn't the first, and won't be the last. It doesn't make you a devil worshipper to openly and publicly admit you're leaving a freaking cult. The truth is they're all still terrified of "Mr. Gothard" and that's about as far as they're willing to go in terms of publicly slagging him off.

 

I think it does in their minds, actually.  I think if you were fooled by him, and admitted it, you would be as good as saying you "lack the Christian gift of discernment", which not to put too fine a point upon it, is "recognizing a cult from a God(ly) based religion".  If you couldn't recognize this, then you weren't right with God, weren't listening to his voice when you prayed, because God would be telling you that something was wrong and you'd be ignoring it, in their minds.

 

I definitely think you need to be married to move up in the Gothard hierarchy. Quite frankly, I think that's why Brandon Keilen caved and finally started courting Michaela. Guys like that get married because it's expected, not because they're madly in love and can't live without their chosen spouse. It's an even more traditional form of arranged marriage than a normal Gothard union.

 

IMO, I think I've trotted this one out before and don't wish to be redundant, but I think that's fundies in general, rather than Gothard.  My parents belonged to an honest to goodness "bible believing" church with degreed ministers, and everybody ran pell mell to get married before they graduated college because of the apostle Paul's, "it is better to get married than to burn with lust".

Edited February 25, 2016 by queenanne

[becca3891]

The whole thing seems like it was filmed in 1993, the hair, the clothes, the pinkish nineties camcorder quality of the footage.

I think Jill hit her stride as a teen in 1993, hair and makeup-wise, and never looked back.

 

I think they'll still retain 90% of their upbringing, but will remain 'unaffiliated' with Mr G. I hope using birth control/ family planning - even if it is condoms and not the chemical pill - is part of their new belief system. God has given them the resources and the wisdom to avoid multiple miscarriages and very difficult pregnancies, so I hope they use it instead of endangering Erin's life.

Chad seems incredibly devoted to Erin and I can easily picture him being willing to give up the no birth control doctrine to protect Erin's life. As it should be -- Gothard is just an extreme example of the right wing mindset that has men making up rules about women's bodies. Gothard has no idea of the pain and in some cases damage of pregnancy, and his belief system has no room for any complications or dangers.

 

I'm perplexed, what kind of meetings does Jill R go to on a daily basis?

Another quesiton are they back on the road because grifting pays better then David working at his printing ministry?

I think Jill likes to make herself sound important, but her "meetings" are no doubt conversations with churches on what time they'll be singing, when they should show up in the fellowship hall for their free food (and boy, do those poor kids need it), etc.

 

I definitely think you need to be married to move up in the Gothard hierarchy. Quite frankly, I think that's why Brandon Keilen caved and finally started courting Michaela. Guys like that get married because it's expected, not because they're madly in love and can't live without their chosen spouse. It's an even more traditional form of arranged marriage than a normal Gothard union.

Poor Michaela. Never have I seen someone less enthusiastic for marriage than Brandon. People can say what they want about David Waller but I get worse vibes from Brandon.

 

Are the Rods Gothardites? Since when does "being well groomed for Jesus" necessitate liters of spray, mousse, gel, and pully rubber bands?

How would even the daily logistics of 14 people going poop work out in an RV with I assume one toilet???

They are Gothardites, yes, and LOL! I've thought about that. One tiny bathroom for both pooping and showering for 14 people = gross. There must be a line at all times, and never a chance for it to stop smelling.

 

I'd like to know if she is even homefooling them? When does she have time with 12 kids??

In the hair tutorial video, Jill explained that laundry was on the floor because they'd been busy doing school all day. Which I'm sure means Wisdom booklets. :p

[GeeGolly]

I think that being a Gothard male is equally as hard as being a Gothard female. From what I have read the men should be treating their submissive wives like Queens. I'm not sure how the woman can be so submissive and keep her self-respect or how the man can continue to respect her, and continue to treat her like royalty with having the Gothard imposed power. It is a recipe for failure. There are many studies, and real life historic events, that show having unchecked power leads to unusually cruel behaviors, and even more so in group situations. The only 'good' thing about the Gothard cult is that these families are singular and not constantly surrounded by like minded thinkers. However, in the wrong hands and with no oversight, that kind of power is dangerous too.

 

How Brandon, Chad, David, and Zach manage their Gothardness within their marriages has really yet to be seen, because their marriages are all relatively young.

 

Maybe Jim Bob is keeping his married girls within the Duggar fold to keep them safe... or, probably not.