Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[Literata]

Turning the topic to TFDW for a second ...

 

I don't know who wrote this or maintains this site, and I apologize in advance to those who find this in poor taste. But I actually laughed out loud.

 

http://wesayso-foundation.tumblr.com/post/105775707809/analyzing-the-david-waller-josh-duggar-affair

[andromeda331]

Or to adopt. It would be nice if Erin and Chad knew it was a good option too. Its not uncommon for couples to adopt after difficult pregnancies. 

[JenCarroll]

Turning the topic to TFDW for a second ...

 

I don't know who wrote this or maintains this site, and I apologize in advance to those who find this in poor taste. But I actually laughed out loud.

 

http://wesayso-foundation.tumblr.com/post/105775707809/analyzing-the-david-waller-josh-duggar-affair

lol

I've actually been thinking about Priscilla. In the beginning I assumed she had no idea about David, but actually, she may know all about it. I have a feeling that Pa Keller may suffer from similar "unrighteous attractions" and it's something he and Ma Keller have purposed to struggle against, in Christian fellowship, glory hallelujah. It's entirely possible that Pa knows about David, and that Ma sat Patricia down and explained that the Lord sometimes tests us, and that taking her place by David's side to help him stay on the Path is her mission in life. Which would also mean that if it all blows up, it'll be Priscilla's fault. God, what a life.

[GEML]

Interesting call on Pa Keller. Could be. I think Priscilla is pretty aware of her own life. She doesn't strike me as dim-witted when she isn't "ministering."

[becca3891]

I agree; I don't think Priscilla is Einstein but she's not as airheaded as she appears. I see her as anxious and insecure, constantly trying to measure up to all of Gothard's "character qualities." I go back and forth on whether or not I truly think TFDW is gay. I definitely know gay men who are far less stereotypically gay than he is, but I just wonder if he's clueless as to how he comes across.

 

But in this video, it may be rather telling that they both speak of love as not being so much a romantic thing, but rather a choice you make to be selfless. I know this is a Gothard talking point, but still, it makes you wonder. Then all I have to do is remember the mud wrestling scene with Josh and can't help but love the idea that he harbors a secret crush on Josh! If it's really true, I feel badly for them both though.

[Absolom]

I believe TFDW knows many perceive him as gay.  I have some fundie friends and at least two of them told me that they emailed David after seeing him on the Duggars and also after seeing some things on his blog.  They said something along the lines of telling him what the internet posters were saying about him so he could avoid giving false impressions.  

[GEML]

That was, in its bizarre way, kind.

[Literata]

I have a feeling that Pa Keller may suffer from similar "unrighteous attractions" and it's something he and Ma Keller have purposed to struggle against,

 

Agreed. I like the Kellers, and I've often wondered if this was the case ... and if so, Pa Keller would be in a good position to understand David (I realize I'm speculating wildly here) and to have perhaps addressed any related concerns when he agreed to the marriage.

 

It's easy for me to sit here and say, "If someone's gay, he/she should simply be allowed to life an honest, open life as a gay person." And then I have to remind myself that in the Gothard world, that's never going to happen. I feel for anyone in that situation, and for spouses of those individuals. It has to be terribly hard, and it makes me angry that one person's f*cked-up world view can cause others to have to live in fear of being who they are.

 

I know Pa Keller seems a little creepy, with the high voice and all, but I've found both the Kellers somewhat endearing anytime we've seen them interacting with the grandkids. They're so unlike Boob and MEchelle -- they seem to really delight in the kids, and in Anna.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Literata

[Happyfatchick]

I only last week "met" TFDW by following links and reading his "essay" about being caught stealing pecans. Still haven't seen him in action, but oh my, that essay. Sounded like it was written by a 6th grader given a random subject. Said 6th grader says, "hmmm. Well, it's an ESSAY, so this calls for big words and lots of fluff." I mean, COME ON!!!!! But. It's his blog, so there you go. I'll write about pink unicorns on my own blog if I want. He's just nasty. Followed up by watching Pris's Mother's Day message yesterday... And she is very very very simple. I'm not sure she's disabled or challenged, but sheltered to the point she doesn't have a clue. Who was the video FOR, for example? Just in general to mothers everywhere? (If so, thanks, Pris). So she rambles around thanking God for Godly mothers raising their children and teaching them at home... So is that to say if a woman doesn't homeschool, she is less Godly? What if a mother isn't "fit" or up for the challenge of homeschooling her children? LIKE PRISCILLA, for example. The whole mouthful of air and exuberance about a vague message that included Mother's Day, the brows knitted, the "look" of concentration... I might be willing to send my kids to Priscilla for home care before pre-school. Anything beyond that...not so much.

And I'm sure they are nice, nice people. I do think she's a little dim. Or stunted. And procreating a bunch more dim ones to carry on. How long before one of these little creepy crawly babies crawls away from the nest? I want to see THAT.

[GEML]

I do think, given the world today, that it is somewhat different for a young Fundy gay man and someone like Pa Keller's age, when being deeply closeted was a very real issue. I think it's quite possible that there are some in the Fundamentalist community who acknowledge who they are and choose to either remain celibate or to marry the opposite sex to have a family. And before anyone jumps on that as a homophobic statement, please ask if you feel that celibacy itself is a denial of who we are and people should be scorned for making it - because people have been making that choice for centuries for religious reasons.

I'm not saying that anyone should be denied who they are. Just that I'm not convinced that the current generation is in the denial that we think they might be. That they choose different ways of arranging their lives - I'm not terribly comfortable with making assumptions that my way of life is right or someone else's is wrong. And that goes for someone who might be in a situation like Priscilla and TFDW. (If indeed they are in such a situation.)

Edited May 19, 2015 by GEML

[Literata]

I'm not terribly comfortable with making assumptions that my way of life is right or someone else's is wrong.

 

Absolutely agree. If it works for them, I'm all for it. But I'd want it to work for BOTH of them -- e.g., an agreement that Pris is a part of.

 

A good friend of mine happens to be a gay man married to a heterosexual woman, and although he's pretty sure she knows he's gay, they've never had "the conversation." He wanted badly to make his conservative parents happy, and to have a "conventional" family, so he married a dear friend after trying to make himself believe he was in love with her. Now, 20 years down the road, he's met a man and wants to leave his marriage, and he's heartbroken at the very real possibility of emotionally devastating his wife and kids.

 

I don't want that for Priscilla; I don't think anyone does. But IF David is gay and she KNOWS he's gay and chose to marry him anyway, that was absolutely her right, and I genuinely wish them both happiness.

[GEML]

Agree. I'm 45, and I've had friends in that exact scenario. The ones who went into marriages openly with spouses on board are ok. The ones who were closeted to their spouses are all divorced. Again, you DO have to be true to yourself, and in a marriage, that means being honest with your spouse.

[becca3891]

For now, Ted Haggard's wife is standing by him, but I've often wondered if she actually knew years before the public scandal. It's an interesting question. TFDW does seem to be genuine in his striving for all the "character qualities," including honesty, so I really can picture him "sharing his heart" with Priscilla, once the courtship was official, about his struggles and how he is purposing to honor god by entering into a marriage with someone else who wants to serve god just as much. Of course, he would have had to first confide in Pa Keller and get his approval and the theory about him is also interesting. I agree with those who said they find the Keller parents much more likeable than Boob and J'Chelle.

[GEML]

Given the "computer access" comment (and the fact that this was made PUBLIC) I do think there were some very honest talks. There's been a lot of shifting on this in the past few years - there still isn't anything approaching genuine tolerance or acceptance, I'm not saying that. But there is some kindness and thoughtfulness taking place, especially outside of the public soapboxes.

[JenCarroll]

I remember Pa Keller giving his testimony at least once (Pris' wedding?) and it was clear that God had saved him from terrible choices and a horrifying fate. I don't know his exact phrasing, and I am totally NOT purposing to sit through that extravaganza again, but it was that among other observations that led me to start thinking about him this way. The thing with requiring David to be accountable to Priscilla for his internet use is also a clue. And I could see Pris accepting this idea that God tests the strongest men and this is David's test, and taking on this responsibility very seriously -- even proudly. So maybe they'll be okay, but I feel there's a strong current of rage running through TFDW, and if he ever does blow, everyone (Pris included) will blame Pris.

I'm glad to hear there's even a small amount of movement on this within that world. But if people who are seen as godly men and strong leaders admit they experience SSA, does that help or hinder their position on sexuality being a choice?

[BitterApple]

David and Priscilla seem like a shell of a couple. They say the right things and attempt the right body language but it just doesn't ring true. I don't even get a sincere friendship vibe let alone any kind of intimacy from these two. If they have some sort of mutual agreement and they're fine with it then more power to them, I just couldn't live like that.

[Micks Picks]

How many Gothards are there anyway?  TFDW and Priscilla speak of traveling to other countries a great deal in their 3 years of marriage.  How do you minister to people?  Just go to another country and be holy and figure everyone will want to be like you?  They love to go to Israel.  I wonder why they have all these international meetings and things to do.  I fail to understand.

[Literata]

 

Given the "computer access" comment (and the fact that this was made PUBLIC) I do think there were some very honest talks.

 

Yep. Here's the conversation from Mike Keller and David, from David's blog:

 

“David, I really feel like God is the One working in your life to give you these desires toward Priscilla. I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.” Knowing his heart to protect his daughter and already having commitments in these areas, I was thrilled to respond with a resounding “Yes.” He said, “I really believe you are the right one for Priscilla, but she has the ultimate say in this decision. But I am almost sure she will be interested in seeking the Lord about this with you.”

[Joe Jitsu913]

I have always said I want to take David on a road trip to P-Town for the summer.  He reminds me of a lot of the fabulous men there. Get rid of the ugly khaki pants and throw on some booty shorts and lip gloss and he'd fit right in.

[Wellfleet]

David and Priscilla seem like a shell of a couple. They say the right things and attempt the right body language but it just doesn't ring true. I don't even get a sincere friendship vibe let alone any kind of intimacy from these two. If they have some sort of mutual agreement and they're fine with it then more power to them, I just couldn't live like that.

 

Yes. Sometimes it really feels as though they're giving a performance as "Happily-Married Christian Husband" and "Happy Stay-at-Home Wife & Mother." And IMO, Priscilla has been giving a much-truer performance - maybe because she really believes it?

[becca3891]

Poor Priscilla. I always feel like she's seconds away from bursting into tears or having a nervous breakdown with the stress of keeping up her nonstop cheer and Gothard buzzwords. Their dialogue gets really cringe-worthy toward the end, and barely coherent. The mistakes are deliberate and as close as I could translate them: TFDW: "Praise the Lord." Priscilla: "Yes, God blessed us sooo much. The Bible says that his thoughts towards us is more than the sea, the sea. And there's a lot of sea of -- in the ocean. That means he thinks about us a lot." Just translating that made me cringe.

Edited May 20, 2015 by becca3891

[lookeyloo]

looks like Priscilla has braces

[kstar821]

Poor Priscilla. I always feel like she's seconds away from bursting into tears or having a nervous breakdown with the stress of keeping up her nonstop cheer and Gothard buzzwords. Their dialogue gets really cringe-worthy toward the end, and barely coherent. The mistakes are deliberate and as close as I could translate them: TFDW: "Praise the Lord." Priscilla: "Yes, God blessed us sooo much. The Bible says that his thoughts towards us is more than the sea, the sea. And there's a lot of sea of -- in the ocean. That means he thinks about us a lot." Just translating that made me cringe.

 

 

My 5 year old could have better articulated this video.  Poor Priscilla indeed.  I can't get behind theses people's aversion to education.  

[JenCarroll]

I pity that child, not allowed bare legs or even bare feet in the water. What a life. At least his mother genuinely seems to play with him and enjoy him. (Why is she allowed to be barefoot?) I think what she's wearing is from a different -- and IMO much nicer -- line of modest swimwear I came across once. Different from what the Duggars wear, I mean. ETA: Hydrochic. It might be Hydrochic.

"There's a lot of sea in that ocean." lol

Edited May 20, 2015 by JenCarroll

[zenme]

Omigosh.  Those 2 seem crazy in that video.  Their relationship seems like that of 2 acquaintances, or 2 strangers meeting on a plane.  There is zero chemistry, and nothing that indicates that these 2 are a couple who are in love.  Sad.

[Fuzzysox]

The Kellers are more likeable as well as the Bates and Willis family because unlike the Duggars they can laugh at themselves and not come off as smug or arrogant assholefamewhores. Everyone is so lively they laugh and smile. The Duggars completely are afraid to say a darn thing they seem miserable.

[BitterApple]

On a positive note for Priscilla I will say she looks pretty darn good for a woman who had two kids back to back. She is very naive but she does come across as a fun mom who genuinely enjoys her child.

[zenme]

She is very naive but she does come across as a fun mom who genuinely enjoys her child.

 

Yes, and I suspect they are her ONLY joy in life.

[Gweilo]

I think a major difference between the Duggars and the Bates' (and other more palatable fundie families) is that the Bates' live a joyful faith, and the Duggars live a fearful one.

[DoctorWhovian]

That Chad Paine is yummy. What a gorgeous couple. And they seem so genuinely into each other. 

[BitterApple]

That Chad Paine is yummy. What a gorgeous couple. And they seem so genuinely into each other.

His brother is pretty hot as well. Chad and Erin are a great couple I'm happy she was finally able to have a baby.

[Fuzzysox]

Michaela Bates is gettina married August 15 then moving to Chicago! Prissy will now have a new friend to hang out with. I'm going to rent a bus if anyone in the Chicagoland area wants to go to Oakbrook to save them let me know! lol

 

On another note we will have to wait and see if the Duggars get invited my bet is a huge fat NO. I can't imagine Kelly wanting anything to ruin Michaela's day.

[BitterApple]

I'm guessing no. Kelly isn't going to want Michael's special day ruined by a thousand people whispering and pointing fingers at the Duggars. Chicago, huh? So is Brandon going to work for ole Bill at Gothard Headquarters?

[questionfear]

This seemed like the best place to float this theory. There's a rumor over in the Josh thread that another TLC family refused to film with the duggars, possibly because of the Josh rumors. Everyone is assuming it's the Willis family, but wasn't there a rumor of a crossover with sister wives that never happened?

I can't imagine how Kody and Ko. would have heard the rumors (crew overlap?) but if they did and there was a lot swirling about it leaking I could see them running in the other direction. One thing they have been very sensitive about is the child molester/predator stereotype around polygamist cults. Could someone in Kody's Kamp have gotten word and thought this was much too high of a risk?

[BitterApple]

My guess is either the Willis or Sister Wives families because they're part of a similar subculture. The Little Couple wouldn't be caught dead with the Duggar clan and I really don't know who else there is. The Gosselins are too worldly and the Gypsies too scantily clad. If the Willis family travels in similar social circles they undoubtedly heard the rumors and were smart enough to avoid the trainwreck.

Edited May 23, 2015 by BitterApple

[GEML]

Honestly, though, I can't see the Duggars agreeing to meet the polygamist Browns. I don't know anything at all about the Willis' though, so maybe there's that.

[RazzleberryPie]

After Ben's latest anti-Mormon video, doubt if they Browns want to film with the Duggars, and vice versa.

[Fuzzysox]

I keep thinking about Kelly Bates and how she only tolerates the Duggars for short amounts of time. If Gil knew the story behind Josh I can see why she wouldn't want any of her kids courting each other. Unlike MEchelle she has friends. They talk and this rumor wasn't so much a rumor to them they knew and have kept their distance.

Note that neither Gil or Kelly are saying a word. Silence truly is golden sometimes.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[GEML]

Yeah, but does she not want her son's marrying the daughters because they are damaged? She had no problem, it seems, welcoming a son of the Duggars into her home if not semi-permanently, then at least regularly while at Crown College.

The biggest thing this has made me do is re-evaluate my opinion of the Kellers and Bates.

[Ljohnson1987]

Bravo Bates. Your silence is refreshing.

[GEML]

I'm just wondering if the Bates family "stood by" Josh all along by getting a new house, a chance of their own TLC show, their daughter's wedding filmed, and eventually a show of their own on another network. If Gil Bates was one of the "Church Elders" who knew about this and helped the Duggars pray it away, that turned out to be a rather financially astute decision for him, didn't it?

[questionfear]

I'm just wondering if the Bates family "stood by" Josh all along by getting a new house, a chance of their own TLC show, their daughter's wedding filmed, and eventually a show of their own on another network. If Gil Bates was one of the "Church Elders" who knew about this and helped the Duggars pray it away, that turned out to be a rather financially astute decision for him, didn't it?

I wonder too how much "church elders" were honestly told. And how much Gil knew vs suspected. The story changed so much over the years I wouldn't be surprised if Boob presented it with some whitewashing to get the guidance without the judgement.

[GEML]

I'm sure it started out whitewashed. But at some point this would have become known. Let's remember that people like the Holts and Huckabee and the person the sent Josh to work for in Little Rock (perhaps the Hobby Lobby owner?) ALL have ties that at least peripherally go back to Gothard. And before the show, it was clear JB and Michelle were deeply into the Gothard community. I doubt he would have dared hold too much back before it was all over.

[Sunnybobs]

I'm just wondering if the Bates family "stood by" Josh all along by getting a new house, a chance of their own TLC show, their daughter's wedding filmed, and eventually a show of their own on another network. If Gil Bates was one of the "Church Elders" who knew about this and helped the Duggars pray it away, that turned out to be a rather financially astute decision for him, didn't it?

Agree agree agree! I really think the Bates (and possibly the Kellers) knew much more about this than we might think. Gil Bates is a church elder, his daughters have made successful Gothard marriages, he is higher in the network than Jom Bob it appears. I just mentioned on the Josh thread (but possibly it should have been here) just because the Bates display a more cheerful version of their beliefs & are clearly more talented singers and Kelly seems a more nurturing mother does not mean that they don't hold all the same views.

[Fuzzysox]

Yeah, but does she not want her son's marrying the daughters because they are damaged? She had no problem, it seems, welcoming a son of the Duggars into her home if not semi-permanently, then at least regularly while at Crown College.

The biggest thing this has made me do is re-evaluate my opinion of the Kellers and Bates.

NO I think Kelly loves the Duggar kids. Kelly's stumbling block is Boob and MEchelle. NO one wants them as in-laws they are toxic. 

[Jenniferbug]

But was Gil a church elder at the time of this scandal? I thought he wasn't appointed to the board and considered an elder until a few years ago, long after this had happened. I'm not saying he didn't hear about what happened, I'm just wondering if we know when he became a church elder.

[RazzleberryPie]

Yeah, but does she not want her son's marrying the daughters because they are damaged? She had no problem, it seems, welcoming a son of the Duggars into her home if not semi-permanently, then at least regularly while at Crown College.

The biggest thing this has made me do is re-evaluate my opinion of the Kellers and Bates.

I think the Bates seem reluctant to be tied to JimBob and Michelle, not necessarily their children. Allowing a daughter to marry a Duggar son would most likely have meant the daughters would be absorbed by the Duggar compound, and JimBob is an ass. Actually, the two men who have married Duggar daughters have been absorbed as well. 

 

I also hope they can see the difference in Josh and Joseph as separate individuals who are not responsible for each other's behavior. 

 

But was Gil a church elder at the time of this scandal? I thought he wasn't appointed to the board and considered an elder until a few years ago, long after this had happened. I'm not saying he didn't hear about what happened, I'm just wondering if we know when he became a church elder.

They all don't go to one specific church. The Bates, Duggars, Kellers and Bill Gothard all live in different states. I think the Bates go to a 'real' church in Tennessee, the Duggars have their home church in Arkansas, no idea what the Kellers do in Florida, and Gothard does his thing in Illinois. Gil Bates is on some sort of Gothard/ATI advisory board, not sure about Mr. Kellar, but Josh's molestation would explain why JimBob is not in any advisory capacity with Gothard. There is section of scripture in 1 Timothy 3 about deacons and elders requirements, and being able to manage their own house or they can't manage God's house. Jimbob was clearly lacking in household management.

 

I don't question the Bates through all this. They really have nothing to do with it. I do question the Kellars and their willingness, either through sincere, innocent faith, or from an attempt to pray away any sexual issues, and marrying their daughters off to some questionable men.

 

4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),…

[BuddyMom]

Perhaps Gil and Kelly have taken Joseph in to protect him from this firestorm? It's got to be hell at the TTH for the older kids. Being several states away is probably a good thing for Joseph.

[GEML]

But I don't believe for one minute that "church elders" are drawn from the people at Jim Bob's church. No way is he going to answer under authority to them. No way. They answer to HIM, no the other way around.

And we do know that there is a Gothard hierarchy that may not be a "church" in the traditional sense, but is the authority for church leadership. That is established in the book written By Don Veinot, A MATTER OF BASIC PRINCIPLES. It seems reasonable to me that JB submitted to these men. Question of who they are is up for

Debate.

[What In The]

I hope the kids still in tth are safe from Jim Boob's wrath!