Michelle and JimBob aka J'Chelle and Boob

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

I suspect that's just a matter of convenience.  If they couldn't drive, one of the menfolk would have to drive them to the grocery store and wherever else they needed to go to keep things running.  That would seriously cut into their leisure time.

I can't see Michelle openly defying JB and handing over the contract, but I can definitely see the scenario where she talked him down and got him to agree in a moment of weakness and ran the contract over there before he could change his mind.  I suspect given some of the evidence of his temper that she has had to learn how to manage him.

The biggest thing here is that had he just provided the contract, taken his lumps and given them some money to satisfy them in the short term, maybe none of this would have happened.  I doubt JB has enough self-awareness to see his own part in this mess.

No, it's all Jill's and Derrick's fault.

[Minivanessa]

 Bringing this over from the Jill/Derick topic.

14 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

He expected them to shut up and do as they were told, even as adults. To quest was considered to be disobedience. All so Boob could continue to sit on his piles of cash. 

Such an evil, greedy asshole. 

From your keyboard to God's ears.

I wrote a comment about JB's financial shenanigans with the kids' tax returns and the TLC money. 

So I was thinking that JB must have been very confident that he would just roll along for the rest of his life being in total control of all the family's money, with the kids only getting their share of the family wealth after both he and Michelle had died. (Details in that post over in the other topic. The kids had no idea until Jill blew it up, that JB's CPA had filed tax returns for years showing each of them had received income - but they hadn't received any of it. JB kept control of all of it.)

As we know, in IBLP - and certainly in the Duggar family - the kids are expected to bow down to their father all the days of their lives. The Umbrella of Authority. 

I think JB really bought into that 101%, as delusional an idea as it is. You can't expect all your kids to grow up and remain docile and under your control. You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but even Bill Gothard levels of brainwashing and control aren't 100% effective for everyone for all time.

I remember reading that JB was tight with Doug Philips, the Vision Forum guy (I think VF gave Meech that famous MOTY award), before he was toppled from his throne of power. And that connection also included Geoffrey Botkin, a fundie mover and shaker who advocated (and may still advocate) a "200 year plan." Under that plan, each fundie patriarch would remain large and in charge of all his descendants, down the generations. The family would stick together, religiously, financially, etc., and marry and multiply, until after 200 years there would be thousands of people in that family (more like a tribe by then), and that would help regain dominion over the world in the name of the correct Jesus.

Yes, it sounds nuts. But Botkin published books, and he had a freaking SPREADSHEET for his family plan, and apparently instructions on how each fundie patriarch could do that too. 

I think somewhere in JB's head, has been the idea that he was building that kind of extended family empire down the generations. So of course, it was totally fine, and probably a directive from God, that JB controlled all the money, including the income from the TV show. And doled it out to the kids on an as-needed (or as JB decided) basis. 

A long time ago there was something, maybe a bit of dialogue in one of the 19K&C episodes, where Jill said something a little cryptic about how their family was kind of a "tribe" but they weren't really supposed to talk about that. 

Things that make you go hmm...

Of course, it really messes with your 200 year plan when before you've even been a patriarch for 40 years:

• your oldest child and Crown Prince is serving time in federal prison for committing nasty felonies
• your most eager-to-please daughter and her hand-picked husband not only ask questions about MONEY (!!) but start thinking for themselves and acting in their own best interests and that of their young family
• another daughter marries a former pro athlete who doesn't come from the iBLP and doesn't recognize you as headship over him for a New York minute
• if we can believe Jill, during Josh's trial some of your other kids ask inconvenient questions about the family and your version of what they should be doing
• and that is just the stuff that the general public knows - not even the rumblings and problems that aren't in the public domain

Reality can be messy, and can bite you in the butt regardless of your deeply held delusions. Looking at you, JB.

[ginger90]

If Jill, and any of the others had tax returns filed in their names, wouldn’t that mean they couldn’t be claimed as dependents?

[GeeGolly]

26 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

If Jill, and any of the others had tax returns filed in their names, wouldn’t that mean they couldn’t be claimed as dependents?

I'm guessing he started them as employees as teenagers. I assume he only did it because it was cheaper for him tax wise to have them working than have them as dependents.

Edited September 17, 2023 by GeeGolly

[Minivanessa]

46 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

If Jill, and any of the others had tax returns filed in their names, wouldn’t that mean they couldn’t be claimed as dependents?

No. I'm no expert, but I believe their parents could claim them as dependents if certain conditions were met.

I found this info from H&R Block -

Quote

You can usually claim your children as dependents even if they are dependents with income and no matter how much dependent income they may have or where it comes from. However, they must meet the following income test requirements:

• Your children must be one of these:

                         Under age 19

                         Under age 24 and a full-time student

                         Permanently and totally disabled

• Your children must have lived with you for more than half of the year. There are exceptions for temporary absences, like when your children are away at school.
• Your children must not have provided more than half of their own support.

The support test looks at how much support your children provide for themselves. It considers who paid expenses like food, lodging, and medical. As long as your children didn’t pay more than half of these expenses, you’ll meet the support test. It’s not necessary that you paid these types of expenses, as long as your children didn’t.

We know that the kids actually had no actual money and that JB paid for the household expenses, whatever "paper income" had been reported for each kid to the IRS. I can't imagine the holy super parents, JB and Meech, not claiming all their kids as dependents on their personal income tax returns, for as long as possible.

I don't know how they handled all that after each kid turned 19. Maybe some "employee" deal as @GeeGolly suggested? We know that over the years Jana has at least on paper owned some commercial properties. I suppose even JB couldn't justify treating her as a child forever - especially since we think she keeps the household running.

(Remember, Jill said that JB was holding and controlling each kid's "income" as an inheritance or investment which he intended that they could access after both parents had died. I'm sure it was all just in one big pot of Mad Family money that he managed as he saw fit. I doubt he was keeping careful accounting as to each child's "funds." He only started howling about the "expenses" of raising the kids when Jill and Derick challenged him and he created that utter bullcr*p list of the money Jill "owed" him for rearing her. ETA: I just looked at that list again. Some of the items go back "8 years" and some "12 years." That list was made in 2018, so some of the things would have been paid after Jill was an adult, and others while she was still a minor. She was born in 1991, hit age 19 in 2010. Not that any of that nonsense was real, but it suggests JB may have had some fragments of tax considerations in his head when he was making it up. I wonder if he wanted to claim his unmarried adult kids as dependents on his personal tax returns but his CPA wouldn't let him, LOL.)

Edited September 17, 2023 by Jeeves

[CalicoKitty]

I would not like to be the accountant who signed those tax returns.   I would not be surprised if there is some kind of investigation.  I can see JB telling officials that "all" the kids signed off on this.  Maybe they did.  "Here, kids, sign your name on this paper."

[ozziemom]

10 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

I would not like to be the accountant who signed those tax returns.   I would not be surprised if there is some kind of investigation.  I can see JB telling officials that "all" the kids signed off on this.  Maybe they did.  "Here, kids, sign your name on this paper."

These days with electronic filing of returns, the signature page is a single page. There are numbers, but it’s just taxable income and taxes due, so unless the kids are savvy enough to look at the whole return, it’s pretty easy to just say “sign here”. And we all know until Jill, none of them questioned any of it, probably even Meechelle.

[GeeGolly]

One would think JB would base the kids' income in his favor. Since he's basically making it all up he could pay them an amount where they'd get a return rather than paying. There seemed to be some kind of oops (or on purpose) at one point and Jill ended up owing money.

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

One would think JB would base the kids' income in his favor. Since he's basically making it all up he could pay them an amount where they'd get a return rather than paying. There seemed to be some kind of oops (or on purpose) at one point and Jill ended up owing money.

Do we know that Jill owed money? The book didn't say she owed money to the IRS. It did not say what was in the IRS letter they received, only that she gave it to Derick and he started researching, got their back tax returns, and discovered the phantom "income" that had been reported to the IRS but not paid to Jill.

Jill wrote that the adverse effect on Jill and Derick, was that when he was applying for law school scholarships/grants, their tax returns made them look like they had a lot more cash than they really did, because of that phantom $132,000 of income.

I think that if they had owed back taxes on it, she would have said so. On page 206, she writes that when they first brought this up to JB, he told Jill and Derick that he (JB) had paid the taxes on the income. And she didn't dispute that in the book. 

[GeeGolly]

36 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Do we know that Jill owed money? The book didn't say she owed money to the IRS. It did not say what was in the IRS letter they received, only that she gave it to Derick and he started researching, got their back tax returns, and discovered the phantom "income" that had been reported to the IRS but not paid to Jill.

Jill wrote that the adverse effect on Jill and Derick, was that when he was applying for law school scholarships/grants, their tax returns made them look like they had a lot more cash than they really did, because of that phantom $132,000 of income.

I think that if they had owed back taxes on it, she would have said so. On page 206, she writes that when they first brought this up to JB, he told Jill and Derick that he (JB) had paid the taxes on the income. And she didn't dispute that in the book. 

I thought I read somewhere that is why this IRS letter was sent. Did Jill state if this was the first letter of its kind? I've never received a letter from the IRS ever, and didn't even know it was a thing. I'm now really curious to what the was.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I thought I read somewhere that is why this IRS letter was sent. Did Jill state if this was the first letter of its kind? I've never received a letter from the IRS ever, and didn't even know it was a thing. I'm now really curious to what the was.

It could've just been a letter saying the return was being audited.  Or, if it was that year's return, that a date or signature was missing.  Back in my younger days, when I did my own returns, I made a math error (filing at the last minute is never a good idea) and got a letter with the correction that I had to sign.  BTW, the error was in the IRS' favor and didn't affect the tax I had paid.  I was getting a refund both before and after the correction.

If JB and his accountant pal manufactured income for Jill, they could easily enough manufacture 1099's or W-2's to cover an audit.

[Minivanessa]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I thought I read somewhere that is why this IRS letter was sent. Did Jill state if this was the first letter of its kind? I've never received a letter from the IRS ever, and didn't even know it was a thing. I'm now really curious to what the was.

Jill did not reveal the contents of the IRS letter in the book, nor did she mention any other letters from the IRS except that one. As I was reading the book for the first time, I stopped and again went over the parts about the IRS letter. I wanted to be sure I hadn't missed anything interesting, but darnit she didn't spill any tea about it.

I have since searched the Kindle book for the word "taxes" and found nothing except that as I mentioned, JB said he had paid the taxes due on the income reported to Jill, and she did not contradict that statement. 

As @Notabug has said, there are reasons the IRS may contact you besides demanding payment of unpaid taxes. 

[dariafan]

All his children need to get what they are owed before felon takes it all in legal fees 

[Fosca]

On 9/15/2023 at 4:44 AM, dariafan said:

Why does Jim boob have to be so over reactive ?  As Jill says in her book , he went home one day and smashed his 8 tracks because the music wasn’t pleasing to God.  He couldn’t just toss them ?  Like in shp when he talks about the bonfire to get rid of all worldly things in their house …

Because unless he destroys them, someone else might be corrupted by his unholy 8-tracks!  Or else destroying them makes God happy and/or Satan unhappy.

Me, I think he did because he's a swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood.  I always wanted to use that phrase, and it sure fits here!

[Scarlett45]

According to this article Tyler has returned to the home of his maternal grandparents, where he was living before he joined the Duggar household and for most of his life. It’s been several years since his Grandmother’s stroke, her health may have improved, and now that he’s older and needs less hands on care he may have been able to go back into their care. Likely he considers that his “home”. What a hard situation for the boy. I do hope he’s able to keep in touch with his cousins that he’s bonded with if he wants. He’s been through a lot in his short life. 

[ginger90]

If Tyler wasn’t in this family he would have had privacy. Why is a minor’s business even available to report on?

[dariafan]

Getting angry because your adult married daughter wore pants without prior notice ??  And would jb be okay with mech following her parents directions instead of his ?  This is 1 of the types of thought processes that made me leave a fundy church 

[Ohiopirate02]

On 9/17/2023 at 12:16 PM, CalicoKitty said:

 I can see JB telling officials that "all" the kids signed off on this.  Maybe they did.  "Here, kids, sign your name on this paper."

I began working at 16 and my dad did my taxes every year for me until I moved out on my own after graduating college.  The man paid my tuition bill, I was on his insurance, and he owned my car, why would I not have him do my taxes?  I expect the Duggarlings felt the same way, and also trusted JB in this.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I began working at 16 and my dad did my taxes every year for me until I moved out on my own after graduating college.  The man paid my tuition bill, I was on his insurance, and he owned my car, why would I not have him do my taxes?  I expect the Duggarlings felt the same way, and also trusted JB in this.

Yes, I wouldn’t blame any of the kids for trusting JB with that. 

[AstridM]

16 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I began working at 16 and my dad did my taxes every year for me until I moved out on my own after graduating college.  The man paid my tuition bill, I was on his insurance, and he owned my car, why would I not have him do my taxes?  I expect the Duggarlings felt the same way, and also trusted JB in this.

I also started working at 16, and my dad took that opportunity to teach me how to do my taxes. It was just the simple EZ form.🤷‍♀️

[GeeGolly]

I certainly can see the kids trusting JB with doing their taxes but... did they know what income tax was? And if they did they must have received an income.

Or perhaps JB fed them some bullshit story about Mad Family money, but again they would have known at least JB was receiving money. 

Derick had said he thought the show was a ministry and no one was paid.

[AgathaC]

5 hours ago, dariafan said:

Getting angry because your adult married daughter wore pants without prior notice ??  And would jb be okay with mech following her parents directions instead of his ?  This is 1 of the types of thought processes that made me leave a fundy church 

I’m trying to picture my dad’s reaction if I, as a full-grown woman, had asked his permission to do something like wear pants. I’m thinking it would have been a “This is a joke, right?” look, followed by some “did I go wrong somewhere?” soul-searching.

[Scarlett45]

Bringing the discussion over from Jill’s thread- I think JB is only covering expenses for Anna/the Ms, Jana, Jackson, and the Lost Girls. Jason and James still live at home so I’m sure they eat from the kitchen and get their laundry done, but they likely work for a JB owned business and take a salary from that. 
 

I don’t think JB minds feeding Jana and the minor kids (Jana does a LOT for them and he knows it) and most of the kids are adults now. I think he’s aggravated by all of Josh’s wrong doing and the Ms being his responsibility but he’s not going to have Anna on the street. Not because he loves Anna but because his “plan” for Josh blew up and he knows it, so this is his responsibility. 

[Salacious Kitty]

He'd look like even more of a shitty human being if he pulled the rug out from under Anna and the Ms. 

[Future Cat Lady]

I think JB is also supporting Anna to make sure she doesn't divorce Josh. He has control over her now. I would not be surprised if he has threaten to cut her off if she doesn't do what he wants her to.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Future Cat Lady

[GeeGolly]

I still go back to what was said in court. The judge said Josh financially sound and would have no issues paying any fines in full.

I think JB likely pays housing bills, including utilities, phone, car and possibly groceries and Anna uses her own money for clothing, gas, dining out, trips to TX, etc.

I also think the TTH compound is where Anna wants to be. A safe place where she can hide out and chill. Its also where she's lived for most of her adult life.

Similar to what @Scarlett45 said, I'm guessing that most of the adult brothers used their payouts to start their businesses and are mostly financially independent.

[CalicoKitty]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I still go back to what was said in court. The judge said Josh financially sound and would have no issues paying any fines in full.

I think JB likely pays housing bills, including utilities, phone, car and possibly groceries and Anna uses her own money for clothing, gas, dining out, trips to TX, etc.

I also think the TTH compound is where Anna wants to be. A safe place where she can hide out and chill. Its also where she's lived for most of her adult life.

Similar to what @Scarlett45 said, I'm guessing that most of the adult brothers used their payouts to start their businesses and are mostly financially independent.

I took that to mean that Josh has money on paper.  He has LLCs in his name, but no one knows what he actually has in available cash.

[sixlets]

The judge's comment about Josh being financially secure could be true.  But, that money could have been provided by JB. With all of the public record info, mentioned on social media/the show, and now Jill's book, it wouldn't be a shock to hear the Duggars are getting yet another visit from the feds. 

[sagittarius sue]

13 hours ago, sixlets said:

it wouldn't be a shock to hear the Duggars are getting yet another visit from the feds. 

It would be welcome news to hear the IRS was visiting JB.

Edited October 7, 2023 by sagittarius sue

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 9/17/2023 at 10:38 PM, Fosca said:

Because unless he destroys them, someone else might be corrupted by his unholy 8-tracks!  Or else destroying them makes God happy and/or Satan unhappy.

Me, I think he did because he's a swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood.  I always wanted to use that phrase, and it sure fits here!

The phrase is fitting, but now I'm going nuts trying to remember where it comes from. I know I've read it somewhere, and probably by an author I like.

[Fosca]

4 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

The phrase is fitting, but now I'm going nuts trying to remember where it comes from. I know I've read it somewhere, and probably by an author I like.

Do "tribbles" ring a bell?  😄

[Jynnan tonnix]

4 minutes ago, Fosca said:

Do "tribbles" ring a bell?  😄

AHA!!! Thanks!

Many years ago I had a book by David Gerrold on writing that episode, and I read it many, many times, which is probably why I was equating it to a book rather than video source.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Jynnan tonnix

[dariafan]

J’inmate may have been sound financially at that time.  But how many llcs has Jim Baffoon moved around since then?

[Salacious Kitty]

13 minutes ago, dariafan said:

J’inmate may have been sound financially at that time.  But how many llcs has Jim Baffoon moved around since then?

@crazy8sis our intrepid LLC watcher. Maybe we can get an update of what's in Anna's name these days. IIRC, they took Smuggar's name off everything.

[beckie]

Aren't all of smuggars llcs under Anna's name? Or does he have his own, too?

[GeeGolly]

LLCs don't necessarily show financial worth. Property does though. I'm also guessing the Duggars have bank accounts and such.

[ginger90]

Would it matter? They are married so…..whatever Anna has, Josh has. No?

[GeeGolly]

21 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Would it matter? They are married so…..whatever Anna has, Josh has. No?

They took FF's name off everything after AM. I'm not sure but I don't think someone suing Josh in a civil suit, could go after assets that are in Anna's name only. But as far a marital assets it doesn't matter much.

[CalicoKitty]

But I would be very surprised if Anna has any control over anything financial.  I think she just signs where she is told.

[Salacious Kitty]

52 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

But I would be very surprised if Anna has any control over anything financial.  I think she just signs where she is told.

Yup. JB is in complete control of whatever finances she has left, save possibly her personal bank account. 

[CalicoKitty]

42 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Yup. JB is in complete control of whatever finances she has left, save possibly her personal bank account. 

Do you think she is allowed to have a personal bank account?  I think the headship, in this case JB, controls everything.  She may be in "control" of an allowance, if JB is giving her one, but I truly doubt she can make any financial decisions for herself or her kids on her own.  If she had access to any real money she might leave.  I think it was reported here that two signatures are required on all LLCs, and one must be JB or the accountant, who I'm sure reports everything to JB.  Anna, and all the Duggar kids, are under JB's control.

[Salacious Kitty]

I think she has a small bank account for food, clothing, gas, and other auto maintenance. I'm certain that JB funds it. 

I have no clue how much money/property Anna has socked away, if any. I imagine she has to fund her visits to Texas. I don't see JB being that generous.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Salacious Kitty
Autofill strikes again!

[ozziemom]

I always thought JB gave out debit cards with limits for small purchases to the kids. And maybe one with a larger limit for groceries. And it was probably Jana’s job to review where the cards were used and report back to Boob. Don’t know why I imagined that other than it’s much more controlled.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ozziemom said:

I always thought JB gave out debit cards with limits for small purchases to the kids. And maybe one with a larger limit for groceries. And it was probably Jana’s job to review where the cards were used and report back to Boob. Don’t know why I imagined that other than it’s much more controlled.

In Jill’s book, she talks about how the older kids were given debit cards once the show started making more money. 

[Salacious Kitty]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

In Jill’s book, she talks about how the older kids were given debit cards once the show started making more money. 

In JB's mind, that equals payment. 🙄

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

In JB's mind, that equals payment. 🙄

He did include meals she bought with it on his itemized list years later…. 

[Salacious Kitty]

1 minute ago, deaja said:

He did include meals she bought with it on his itemized list years later…. 

I missed that! My god, what a cheap asshole. 

[ozziemom]

9 hours ago, deaja said:

In Jill’s book, she talks about how the older kids were given debit cards once the show started making more money. 

I haven’t read Jill’s book yet, still on the hold list at my library, but this makes sense. I believe credit cards are tools of the devil according to Gothard or JB.

[Gemma Violet]

Bringing this over from the Jill thread.  CalicoKitty says:

Quote

JB has a very high regard for himself, and I can see him making some bad investments as he gets older.

This is a good start--I posted this in July:

Quote

WOACB is saying JB has sold the theater in Branson at a loss.  Purchased in 2020 for 2.4 million.  Sold for 1.8 million.

 

[CalicoKitty]

22 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Bringing this over from the Jill thread.  CalicoKitty says:

This is a good start--I posted this in July:

 

I wonder if there are other large losses which have not been made public.  I also wonder if any of the sons are starting to worry, or if everyone is kept in the dark and just told not to worry.  These kids have been told they will inherit money, and have deliberately been kept from education and training so they couldn't make their own income and decisions.  I'm getting the feeling that JB's empire is starting to crumble.