S01.E09: Unto The Breach

[Kendall]

That's interesting.  My mom doesn't like Cookie (or Anika for that matter) because to her she is a stereotype, a loud black woman.  But, Cookie is loud and hood because that's where she was raised, she didn't go to college, she went to prison.  What would Cookie be like if she had gone to college? 

 

Ha! Cookie would be a loud, black woman with a degree! ***

 

So, on every level she could think of, she'd try to strip Anika of every bit of her dignity. Plenty of "hood" folks have gone to college and while they may have learned a few things about the whens, wheres and the social skills needed in each situation, the life and experiences that they lived prior to turning that tassel will still crop up when they feel their life is on the line.

 

The same for all of the suburbian folks that go to college.

 

Poverty may not cross all lines, but family discord, physical and emotional abuse, influence from family and friends, etc., do. You aren't giving Cookie enough credit, that hood chick gave the perfect pitch to those investors with only a few "unneeded" asides to her personal life with Lucious. So, what would Cookie look like if she had gone to college? The same way she did that night: successful and real.

 

***P.S. due to the fact that black women have the temerity to get degrees, even the church mice are often accused of being a "loud, black woman" the minute they assert themselves and that's with white and black people. Once she steps out of her "place," it's gonna be a problem.

 

As much as I enjoy Cookie (I ADORE Taraji), I agree with you both, and I have serious beef with Empire's writers.

 

I never felt much of anything for Anika, but I did feel badly for her in the beginning. She was minding her own business, working hell hard for a company she was helping grow, was part of a family she thought respected her, and was in a relationship with the man she loved. At that point, she had done nothing wrong (why she stayed with Lucious' trifling, cheating ass is another story).

 

Now all of a sudden Cookie gets out of jail and IMMEDIATELY steps into Anika's face and on her toes, insulting, intimidating and disrespecting her at every turn. Anika hadn't done a thing to that woman. Cookie acted as if Anika had personally got her sent to jail and stole her man, when it was Lucious who was the engineer behind all of that. Strangely, Cookie is just FINE with Lucious. She's willing to sex him all up and down the corridors of Empire. Lucious, the person who actually hurt her? They're COOL. But Anika? SHE felt the brunt of her wrath. Every week we were meant to laugh at Boo Boo Kitty. Now, since Cookie is meant to be the hero of this piece, the writers decide that their best option is to demonize her opponent. Stack the deck against Anika in order to bolster Cookie. So they turn Anika into a traitor who drugs an addict out of petty jealousy and spite. Now this is where my beef with the writers began.

 

Shows love to do this. In order for the heroes to find 'true love', they usually end up cheating, and someone has to fall by the wayside. And of course, the easiest thing to do, to justify the pain they've caused, is to turn the innocent person into the bad guy. It's annoying because real life isn't always like this. In real life very often the wronged party IS completely innocent and has every right to feel hurt and devastated. Sometimes, the cheaters ARE the jerks who have done something awful. But writers like to skip over such annoying details. It's too messy to admit the star of the show may actually be a selfish asshole. So lets go ahead and make the scorned lover a killer, a psycho, a thief, a sociopath or just a plain old jerk. I have seen this lazy writing too many times.

 

I'm disappointed that Empire took the easy route. Because if they had left the character of Anika as she was, a hard working woman who was just trying to do right by the family and the company, they would have had to admit that what Cookie was doing to her was horrible, and they would have had some WRITING to do. But no. Instead, Anika drugs a recovering addict and betrays the company with its biggest rival. Anything to justify the fact that Cookie was shitting on that girl from day one.

 

And this is why I have "complaints" about the pacing. A slightly slower pace and a few more episodes could've allowed for that kind of development for Anika, who I personally think is a viable character. I don't want to see all of the characters not named "Lyon" to just be easily discarded after they've served their episode's worth of storyline.

 

They should be allowed to be formidable and in my opinion, they should write every character as strongly and with as many layers as Cookie and let the audience decide who they are rooting for. That's what makes Empire so compelling, not the break neck speed and this is a "new day of TV," blah, blah, blah.

 

No one is asking that they turn Empire into a daily soap or even 23 episodes, but I cannot believe that a few more minutes of Cookie finally seeing how much she needs Porsha after the realization that she could've turned on her wouldn't make this show that much more.

 

I can't believe that a little more time with Rhonda and Andre to answer the questions of what their marriage is really built on, wouldn't help this show. What was the fallout from the attempted pimping? We saw his frustration in the car, did she give more attitude over the days following? How much did she add to his breakdown?

 

Or, how about a little more push and pull with Hakeem and Cookie as they navigate their new relationship. Or, even if we had ever some scenes with Cookie and Andre in which she was seeing "something," but everyone was putting her off because Andre was a man and he grew up without her just fine and whatever to dismiss her inquiries.

 

Some of that wouldn't take half a season, but it could've made a compelling episode or two. This cast is big enough where a scooch more focus on the supporting characters wouldn't break the show, but make it that much stronger.

[Jazzy24]

Why you disloyal bitch-ass niggas! King Kong ain't got SHIT on me!

Um, sorry....love this movie, the only time I ever found Denzel to be sexy as hell.

Everytime Denzel walks is when I find him sexy, ummmm.... that man has one fine ass walk.

And I was waiting for Dre to do some type of speech like that.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Jazzy24

[Ann Mack]

I'm seeing rising criticisms of the show moving too fast, dropping plot points, and not really giving the show time to breathe.  Well, I agree, and I've been speaking especially about the show's unpleasant willingness to drop key plot points.  I think it's absolutely incumbent that the show fixes these flaws before taping any episodes for season two.  It's interesting that this gets compared to Dallas or Dynasty.  The writers need to review episodes of those two shows.  They'll discover a steady narrative, complete with subplots and continuity that flowed nicely between each episode.  This just hasn't happened with Empire, but it can happen if they're willing to make a few changes.

 

That might be true and I'm sure they will be addressed but its obviously not enough to stop viewers from watching at 14.2M they are doing something right. Plus its easy to quarterback and criticize afterwards. Just like those criticizing for its pace and flightiness I'm sure others will criticize if they change it up too much. Right now its an enjoyable show in its first season and making headlines and hitting or breaking historical TV monuments all over the place. So I'm going to enjoy the crazy ride and trust in Lee Daniels, Danny Strong and the cast to continue to keep it moving. Critics are critics for a reason.

[angelita100]

I vehemently disagree that Cookie is some stereotype.  Anger is not even the emotion we see most out of her.  This is a fleshed out real character _ not some Hannah from Haves and the Have Nots in second season mode.  Speaking of THATHN, I had to give that up with the 5 minute conversations that consists of repeating the same things over and over.  So I will take breakneck spead over that any day of the week. Same as Gracepoint.  Their character development adn then there is too damn slow.   Dallas and Dynasty weren't perfect for all the seasons they were on.  Some years were better than others. 

[Soup333]

That was the best episode of this show so far. Loved it!

[ThomasAAnderson]

 

I vehemently disagree that Cookie is some stereotype.  Anger is not even the emotion we see most out of her.  This is a fleshed out real character _ not some Hannah from Haves and the Have Nots in second season mode.  Speaking of THATHN, I had to give that up with the 5 minute conversations that consists of repeating the same things over and over.  So I will take breakneck spead over that any day of the week.

THIS! The most Damita-sue among us are accused of being an angry black woman when the slightest bit of emotion is expressed so I find this whole archetype problematic and false honestly.

[wayne67]

Cookie reminds me of this guy from work... He's constantly "on", he's amusing sometimes but on the other hand he's exhausting to be around. I'd imagine Cookie would be the same. She could do with a few more quiet moments where she's not casting shade on everyone and everything to let her character breathe a bit more. YMMV

[2AT]

That might be true and I'm sure they will be addressed but its obviously not enough to stop viewers from watching at 14.2M they are doing something right. Plus its easy to quarterback and criticize afterwards. Just like those criticizing for its pace and flightiness I'm sure others will criticize if they change it up too much. Right now its an enjoyable show in its first season and making headlines and hitting or breaking historical TV monuments all over the place. So I'm going to enjoy the crazy ride and trust in Lee Daniels, Danny Strong and the cast to continue to keep it moving. Critics are critics for a reason.

I must admit that I am also a little concerned about how fast they are burning through the plot, but hopefully Daniels, Strong and company have an overall plan. This reminds me of the only other show that I was this excited about, "The OC." Season 1 was appointment television and then it became clear that characters were being written into corners because story lines were advanced too quickly.

[DearEvette]

Honestly, I think the main plot that falls under the umbrella of the IPO and the pitting of the sons against each other in the wake of Lucious' ALS diagnosis & the fallout from Cookie's return are the only plots they should have really concentrated on.  That was enough especially when you add in the character development necessary to help drive plot, such as the unfinished relationship b/t Cookie & Lucious, Jamal's coming out, Hakeem's mommy issues and Andre's bi-polarism (along with his freaky marriage).  I think Bunkie's murder, Cookie testifying, Cookie's hit, Jamal's surprise paternity  etc. were a bit too much for what they had to work with esp. when you add in the space they need to have for showing the creative side of the business.

 

My gut is that they had an idea of what they wanted to do with the show when they shot the Pilot but some things happened organically, rather than planned.  I wonder if Taraji being so charismatic with Cookie was one of those 'let's capitalize on this' thing and maybe Cookie's ---Cookieness --  might have been expanded.  I also get the impression that maybe Anika's role might have been expanded beyond orignially planned because she was really rather like wallpaper in the Pilot. So the earlier shows may have not had a chance to lay a foundation for what they are doing now.

 

I also agree that Cookie is far from a stereotype.  She is savvy and smart.  She always was.  And Taraji layers her with so much emotion bubbling underneath that she is waay more than just a Hood Angry Black Woman.  If Cookie were just a caricature, I don't think I think the response to her would be so positive.  Even the harshest skeptics have been won over and part of that is because she is so warm and vulnerable with it sometimes.  Cookie's biggest flaw, imo,  is that she hasn't learned to mask her emotions. She wears them loud on her sleeve and she has no filter.  Contrast that with Anika who always looks like she is wearing a mask and is scheming underneath.  I think people like the out-there-ness  of Cookie because it feels more honest compared to the inscrutability of Anika.

[phoenics]

That's interesting.  My mom doesn't like Cookie (or Anika for that matter) because to her she is a stereotype, a loud black woman.  But, Cookie is loud and hood because that's where she was raised, she didn't go to college, she went to prison.  What would Cookie be like if she had gone to college?

Are you suggesting that Cookie is loud because she's uneducated?

Really?

Um - I have a PhD - and I hang with a lot of black female PhDs and we can be loud when we get together... sometimes even alone if we are feeling cornered. The point is that it doesn't DEFINE us. Just like others can be loud and boisterous sometimes when they're having fun (I was at Sheila Johnson's Salamander resort last weekend and trust me, this isn't a black thing). But somehow, only black women get labeled this way - even by our own.

I'm tired of feeling backed into a corner and not allowed to have human reactions because I'm a black woman. I'm always having to watch my back and stifle my feelings and emotions because I get judged to be an ABW if I do. No matter that most of the time I'm pretty calm and whatever - just like any other human being.

The reason I said Cookie defies stereotypes is because she does - she may be loud and brash sometimes, but others she's not. Like, you know, a human. She has layers. Her trying to reach her sons when they are shoving her away, or her feeling insecure, etc.. layers.

Why can't black women EVER show any emotion or be fully themselves without being labeled "ghetto" (I HATE that term) or ABW?

WHY?!

Elin Woods went after her now ex-husband with a golf club and smashed up his windows, but no one is labeling her or using that moment to label her an AWW.

Why don't we - black, white or polka dot - EVER give black women any slack with that?

 

I'm not sure if Anika always put Cookie down because Cookie was nasty to her from the start.

Before Cookie and Anika met - I give you, underwear gate with Anika. She did that on purpose to pee all over Lucious. Anika has had the claws out since day one.

I don't necessarily blame her - but she wasn't sweetness and light to Cookie and she did take every opportunity to act like she was "better than" Cookie.

 

I didn't like Anika drugging Elle, but at least she didn't have someone killed like Cookie did.

Anika drugged Elle out of jealousy. Cookie planned a hit on someone who had previously threatened her AND who she thought was trying to kill her. One is inexcusable and no criminal system would cut Anika slack for that. Cookie might have a case for self defense.

Might.

But I guess that's my point - I just find Cookie's heart to be more genuine than Anika's.

As much as I enjoy Cookie (I ADORE Taraji), I agree with you both, and I have serious beef with Empire's writers.

 

I never felt much of anything for Anika, but I did feel badly for her in the beginning. She was minding her own business, working hell hard for a company she was helping grow, was part of a family she thought respected her, and was in a relationship with the man she loved. At that point, she had done nothing wrong (why she stayed with Lucious' trifling, cheating ass is another story).

 

Now all of a sudden Cookie gets out of jail and IMMEDIATELY steps into Anika's face and on her toes, insulting, intimidating and disrespecting her at every turn. Anika hadn't done a thing to that woman. Cookie acted as if Anika had personally got her sent to jail and stole her man, when it was Lucious who was the engineer behind all of that. Strangely, Cookie is just FINE with Lucious. She's willing to sex him all up and down the corridors of Empire. Lucious, the person who actually hurt her? They're COOL. But Anika? SHE felt the brunt of her wrath. Every week we were meant to laugh at Boo Boo Kitty. Now, since Cookie is meant to be the hero of this piece, the writers decide that their best option is to demonize her opponent. Stack the deck against Anika in order to bolster Cookie. So they turn Anika into a traitor who drugs an addict out of petty jealousy and spite. Now this is where my beef with the writers began.

 

Shows love to do this. In order for the heroes to find 'true love', they usually end up cheating, and someone has to fall by the wayside. And of course, the easiest thing to do, to justify the pain they've caused, is to turn the innocent person into the bad guy. It's annoying because real life isn't always like this. In real life very often the wronged party IS completely innocent and has every right to feel hurt and devastated. Sometimes, the cheaters ARE the jerks who have done something awful. But writers like to skip over such annoying details. It's too messy to admit the star of the show may actually be a selfish asshole. So lets go ahead and make the scorned lover a killer, a psycho, a thief, a sociopath or just a plain old jerk. I have seen this lazy writing too many times.

 

I'm disappointed that Empire took the easy route. Because if they had left the character of Anika as she was, a hard working woman who was just trying to do right by the family and the company, they would have had to admit that what Cookie was doing to her was horrible, and they would have had some WRITING to do. But no. Instead, Anika drugs a recovering addict and betrays the company with its biggest rival. Anything to justify the fact that Cookie was shitting on that girl from day one.

 

Now mind you, I still love Cookie, but I'm not going to pretend she was the saint in all of this. And I'm not going to pretend that she didn't have a large, large part to play in the what led to the events of this episode. Of COURSE Anika was 1000% wrong, and there is no justification in the world for drugging a recovering addict. NONE. I don't feel sorry for Anika. But COOKIE started this war a LONG time ago.

 

This is the first episode I've felt for Andre. Trai and Jussie almost had me in tears in that elevator scene. And that NEVER happens to me. I NEVER get weepy at TV shows (my cold, black heart doesn't allow it). So for those guys to do that, and to get me to admit it....man...these guys are SUPERSTARS.

Hmmmm I guess I don't look at Empire as a fairytale - it's a show where everyone is kinda bad and gray. EVERYONE. There aren't any knights in shining armor or fairytale princesses. Think Scandal.

That's actually why I think the show made Anika much more gray - because no one is supposed to be "good". They're all supposed to be supremely flawed.

But here's the thing - I could probably warm up to Anika if she had demonstrated some heart. Shown remorse for drugging Elle and remorse for what she's doing now with Beretti. But she's just cold - they aren't giving her any characterization beyond a scorned woman - which makes me wonder how longterm she is for the show.

For all the potshots folks take at Cookie for being an ABW (not true, imo), Anika (to me) appears to be the most cardboard character out of all of them.

Edited March 5, 2015 by phoenics

[ridethemaverick]

I would think that if someone acts like a stereotype, they would please racists and idiots.

And nothing wrong with having an opinion, just because I don't worship at the altar of Cookie.

Who cares if racists and idiots are pleased though?

I agree, nothing wrong with having an opinion or disliking Cookie if thats how one truly feels but there's something very wrong with caring about the opinions of racists one way or the other.

[phoenics]

I would think that if someone acts like a stereotype, they would please racists and idiots.  

 

And nothing wrong with having an opinion, just because I don't worship at the altar of Cookie.

It's not about worship - it's about reducing her to nothing more than a stereotype, when plenty have pointed out ways that she doesn't fit said stereotype - AND about not pointing out those stereotypes in the other characters as well. It's always about picking on the black woman characters and holding them to some insanely impossibly high standard.

It's so limiting. And - honestly from a personal perspective - it's just killing black women too. Healthwise. Always repressing their true feelings out of fear of being labeled an ABW. Maybe part of why I love Cookie so much is that she's not afraid to just be herself - even though you know part of this is her acting out a bit due to her own insecurities. I may not have a life that looks anything like Cookie's and I may have had an upbringing like Anika's, but I definitely identify more with Cookie.

If they would play Anika with more layers (right now she's more of a cardboard cutout than anyone else), maybe I could understand her better. But she's just a foil.

I just don't see Cookie as a stereotype - she's flawed, definitely - but I just can't jump on the ABW stereotype or any stereotype for her.

[ThomasAAnderson]

I'm going to get in trouble for this but these posts about black women and how we are marginalized and lied on are giving me life!! The wit and intelligence on this board is just wonderful and affirming.

[ELMIKE2K14]

That's very true.  Anika was minding her own business when Cookie appears and screams, "I want what's mine!"  

 

I also didn't like Cookie throwing Anika's clothes away, I guess because neither she, Cookie nor Porsha could fit into them huh?  That's nasty?  So is throwing someone's property away.

 

I know Cookie is supposed to be the "hero" in this story, but I'm sorry,  I can't with her, she's common and nasty. I've known people like Cookie, the key word is "known" meaning I had to say "bye Felecia" to them; Cookie and Porsha can both go take a seat.

 

One thing I adore about the show is the pace.  One thing I hate is dragging something out over multiple episodes.  If Lucious hadn't told his family that he has ALS, I might have stopped watching.

I agree, I can't stand either Cookie or her cousin. I'm trying to figure out how is Cookie set up to be the "hero", she's a horrible person, really the only people on this show who one can see as a possible sympathetic character is Jamal due to how his dad has treated him and even he has like his brothers a attitude of entitlement. Annika, before she tried to stoop to Cookies level was a possible sympathetic character as it seemed as though she was just doing her job and happened to get into a relationship with Lucious.

[CofCinci]

I just don't see Cookie as a stereotype - she's flawed, definitely - but I just can't jump on the ABW stereotype or any stereotype for her.

If a lesser actress portrayed Cookie, I could see critics calling the Cookie a stereotype; however, Ms. Henson adds heart, brains, courage and other layered emotions (oh shit, I just realized this is some Wizard of Oz shit) to Cookie.  She breathes life into a character that could have been quiet cartoonish if not in the hands of such a skilled, yet under-appreciated, actress. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by CofCinci

[photo fox]

All, I understand and appreciate the passion behind the current conversation, but please just remember to keep it civil. Everyone's opinion gets equal respect around here. Don't get personal.

And to add a little levity, "I'm Cookie, take a bite," is the funniest thing I've heard on television in ages. :)

[Rick Kitchen]

Cookie reminds me of this guy from work... He's constantly "on", he's amusing sometimes but on the other hand he's exhausting to be around. I'd imagine Cookie would be the same. She could do with a few more quiet moments where she's not casting shade on everyone and everything to let her character breathe a bit more. YMMV

 

The scene where Cookie visited Titan's Muslim mother was so different from most of her scenes.  I loved it and thought it was beautiful.  I would like to see more scenes like that.  Not that I don't love Cookie in full-on rage mode.

[ridethemaverick]

We probably need a race/class/gender thread. :)

[wayne67]

The scene where Cookie visited Titan's Muslim mother was so different from most of her scenes.  I loved it and thought it was beautiful.  I would like to see more scenes like that.  Not that I don't love Cookie in full-on rage mode.

 

True I had forgotten that scene. Unfortunately that scene is tainted by the fact that Cookie was playing that woman to get close to her son to please Lucious for reasons I still can't understand.

 

There was also that scene when she was singing to herself in the prison which was beautiful.

 

I'm not sure how to express my wish for her character clearly. I guess I'd like her to open up a little more to her sons so they can connect to her more on a personal level. A lot of the time she's so busy scheming or micromanaging everyone and their relationships. It's hard to get a sense of who she is underneath.

 

Maybe a scene with her and any of her sons where it has nothing to do with music, money or scheming.

 

Perhaps we'll get that if she visits Andre and they have a heart to heart. Their relationship seems fairly distant.

 

As for criticising a show. It really depends on how it's done. I think the show is doing well but I'd really don't want them to have to keep topping themselves every season to keep viewers interested because that can be a slippery slope to really hacky writing.

 

For instance... 

 

I want to know where Raven has gone and whether a paternity test has been done. Jamal should be more concerned about that at least. You don't want to get attached to a child and the child to get attached to you if it turns out you'll lose her when it's discovered you are no relation.

 

How much did any of the family members know about Andre's condition?

 

What is up with Vernon?

 

How does becoming a publicly traded corporate entity secure musicians profit margins against the internet and downloading music ?

[Silly Angel]

I watched the episode at 7:30 in the morning and felt sick-drunk as fuck watching Cookie taking that last shot in Ghetto Ass Studios. And enjoying a glass of pinot the next day--that's my girl!

[Percysowner]

I'm just going to have to assume that Lucious and the rest of the family knew nothing about Andre's bipolar, because if they did know all this time, what might that imply?  That they didn't understand the seriousness of such a condition that they thought Andre could handle it alone?  Or they did realize how deadly it could be for him and others but they didn't care?  The idea that Cookie and Lucious would've known all this time but never bothered to really check up on him because they were much too into Jamal and Hakeem is just really...................hmmmmm.  

 

I don't see how Cookie could have known about Andre being bipolar, and even if she did, there was nothing she could do to "check up on him" since she was in jail. She gets out and Andre is successful, CEO of Empire, handling the finances, married and not reaching out to her.

 

I can even cut Lucious some slack here if he knew. If he did know then what he saw was Andre, properly medicated, who was doing his job and not acting out in front of Lucious. Most of the scenes with Andre decompensating were with Rhonda, who was desperately trying to get him medicated properly. There was one scene with Vernon in the bathroom when Andre threatened him. In context, Andre was  a man raised in a violent household where he learned to threaten and use violence to keep what was his. So Vernon had reason to think that Andre's behavior was within the norm.

 

Lucious can be extremely self centered and is pretty committed to seeing his kids as extensions of himself. So if he knew Andre was mentally ill, he wouldn't want to admit that. Once Andre got medicated and stable Lucious could convince himself that whatever was going on with Andre was merely a few "episodes" and ignore the rest. Andre doesn't live with the family and he's been stable in front of them, so I don't blame anyone for not noticing if Andre was falling apart.

[Syndicate]

The pacing is breakneck, which I like because it moves quickly, but at time annoys because things get dropped and there is no sense of how much time passes between episodes. With the success they're having, it will probably be corrected next season. I know it's not bothering me THAT much, because I'm all "just two episodes left!" verklempt like everyone else.

 

 

I hope they don't; no offense to your ideas but this sounds too Have and Have Not to me. Please don't Perry-ize Empire!

 

I have to disagree. Maybe it's precisely because they're finding non-descript places that it doesn't look or feel a thing like NYC. Not the buildings, not the streets. For sure not the fashions Hakeem wears (unless it's NYC in the 90's.) There is literally not a single scene where I feel like this is taking place in NYC. They should have at least thrown in a few b-roll shots, done some on locations that they could mix in. Hopefully that will be corrected next season also. Because for me, Empire is happening in a vacuum somewhere, but it ain't happening HERE.

Responding to The Haves and The Have Nots part of your post regarding my ideas?  I disagree!  First of all, whatever unfavorable issues that may exist with that Tyler Perry show has to do with the way he CHOOSES to write his characters.  It's not the characters themselves.  Not to brag or anything, but I think my ideas are pretty damn hot .  I tend to believe that people will eventually grow weary of the weekly ghetto fest (sorry, that's kinda how I see this show right now).

Edited March 6, 2015 by Syndicate

[ELMIKE2K14]

It's not about worship - it's about reducing her to nothing more than a stereotype, when plenty have pointed out ways that she doesn't fit said stereotype - AND about not pointing out those stereotypes in the other characters as well. It's always about picking on the black woman characters and holding them to some insanely impossibly high standard.

It's so limiting. And - honestly from a personal perspective - it's just killing black women too. Healthwise. Always repressing their true feelings out of fear of being labeled an ABW. Maybe part of why I love Cookie so much is that she's not afraid to just be herself - even though you know part of this is her acting out a bit due to her own insecurities. I may not have a life that looks anything like Cookie's and I may have had an upbringing like Anika's, but I definitely identify more with Cookie.

If they would play Anika with more layers (right now she's more of a cardboard cutout than anyone else), maybe I could understand her better. But she's just a foil.

I just don't see Cookie as a stereotype - she's flawed, definitely - but I just can't jump on the ABW stereotype or any stereotype for her.

Cookie maybe real but it doesn't change the fact that she's a horrible person not just flawed. I can't see her as being the shows protagonist long term unless she's due for a very humbling crash and burn moment due to come in a later episode, something that happens in most soapy shows. Cookie can only act like a hoodrat for just so long until she will have to evolve and adapt to the corporate world part of empire, otherwise she will just come off as a clown . If she stays the same you have to think that either Anika comes back a stronger and colder/darker character thus making Cookie look more like the sympathetic person, or a new rival who can counter check Cookie's attitude emerges. 

[CorgiNarnia]

Not familiar with ITunes (don't judge me, dammit!), so will wait until the CD drops.  Is 'Drip-Drop' included, love that track.

All the music is on Spotify, with all the multiple versions of songs too. I made my own playlist.

 

So that Veronica (bald singer) was lured away pretty easily. Way to be loyal. All it took was getting "Kanye" to guest on a track with her. Although I guess she felt like Empire was prioritizing Tiana over her and maybe she was mad that Lucious beat up her cousin.

 

I love how all Empire leadership went into panic mode. I'm sure most of the artists were locked into contracts for long enough. Don't they just need to worry about the ones who were in negotiations or their contract ending soon defecting to Creedmoor?

 

Why did no one find out whether Anika told Beretti about the ALS? That's all that mattered. I wonder why she didn't tell him. Maybe she thought that would be going too far, i.e. put her life in danger.

[phoenics]

Cookie maybe real but it doesn't change the fact that she's a horrible person not just flawed.

I simply do not agree with this on any level.

Aside from selling drugs (which we can probably say is a gray area) and having that dude killed, I can't see her as a horrible person. She loves her sons unconditionally - even if she doesn't always know how to relate to them. Her bravado is just that - bravado.

I don't understand calling her a horrible person...

Can you help me understand where you see that?

[tennisgurl]

I rather fail to see Cookie as a horrible person. She isn't exactly sweet and fluff, but I still find her to be a sympathetic character. She did have a guy killed, but he was a hit-man she thought was going to murder her, so I cant fault her all that much. And she was a drug dealer, but that hardly makes her Satan. She isn't always super nice, but she is basically parent of the year next to Luscious. She is VERY loyal, loves her family, and has a lot of talent and drive. I don't need characters who are perfect and well mannered all the time, real people aren't.  

 

I can sympathize with Anika, and Cookie was pretty unnecessarily rude to her from the start, but I can understand where Cookie is coming from. Anika, it`s harder to get a read on. I certainly feel for her sometimes, but the scene where she drugged Elle made me really sour on her. I can get doing something to get back at Cookie and Luscious, but screwing with someone who had nothing to do with her feud with Cookie is just cold. Again, I don't think she`s evil or anything, but she is hardly blameless here. At least, she stoped being blameless right aroun then.  

[venusnv80]

Cookie is an ass then, because what any self aware person would realize is that going to prison was on HER (really on Lucious), and has nothing to do with Anika.  

 

So far my favorite character is Andre.  However I wonder if it will ever come out that he sent those friends of Hakeem's to the studio where Jamal was recording to rough things up.

Me and you are here all of this. 

 

And I believe the drugging of Elle was supposed to establish exactly THAT, that Anika doesn't deserve any sympathy for the way that Cookie treats her. It soured me more on Cookie than Anika for the simple fact that the writers decided to play that game. 

 

I still love Empire, but they definitely have some issues that I expect to be worked out by Season 2. Oh and they need to lay off of Cookie's saying and meme baiting comments. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by venusnv80

[kalamac]

This show more than makes up for Taraji P. Henson not being on POI anymore. It's brilliant, and she's amazing as Cookie.

[Whitley Trillbert]

Cookie loves her family for sure, but she's extremely rude, brazen, racist, insensitive, and justifies all of that under the guise of keeping it real. Its a testament to the acting of Taraji that despite all of this people have fallen in love with Cookie. I don't agree with her being a good person though.

 

The other thing is that we've seen Cookie get her way with just about  anything and everyone on the show. To me that's not good soap nor good drama. I'm hoping with all my might they introduce someone who's more than willing and able to serve as good as Cookie dishes. I think they failed Anika in that aspect unless there is some major turnaround in the next two episodes. 

 

I'm also going to say this until it happens but this show is screaming for someone like Diahann Carroll to come threw and wreck shop 

[Badsamaritan]

The thing I try to remember about Cookie also is that, her social skills are still being learned. She's been in prison for 17 years. Even though I have no personal knowledge of what that must be like, I can easily understand that she was in a kind of hellish stasis, where her one and only option was to survive. By any means necessary. The emotional growth one would normally experience in that amount of time would most likely not have happened for her.

I'm also trying to remember that the show had no idea if they would be successful or given another season. So I feel like they just went balls out, and I'm invested enough in the characters and the story to let them carry me away for 2 more episodes, and then come back next year fully prepared to expand on this wonderfully whacked out universe they've created.

Now if they come back and Sleepy Hollow this mother fucker I will be ready to side eye and burn shit. :-)

[cali1981]

So many comments about the quality of last night's show.  It was so well constructed and so tightly written that every piece of the story fell precisely into place.  Trai's performance showing Andre rapidly decompensating from the elevator to the boardroom was amazing, especially if he winged parts of it.  TPH is so damn funny at times that you have to pay close attention to the throwaway lines.  I've like seeing the now mature Judd Nelson as Barretti.  The role fits him well.  I loved the final rendition of You're So Beautiful and was rather surprised and impressed by Terence Howard's singing.  It was really quite good and the whole scene just felt so right.  When the show goes on break, it's gonna be too long a wait until it returns. 

[Kendall]

I love how all Empire leadership went into panic mode. I'm sure most of the artists were locked into contracts for long enough. Don't they just need to worry about the ones who were in negotiations or their contract ending soon defecting to Creedmoor?

 

In regards to artists leaving and potentially leaving with Anika, the music industry used to have (and may still have) a "keyman clause" written into a lot of contracts. The keyman clause allows an artist to leave with the person that signed them to a label if that person leaves the company for whatever reason.

 

Clive Davis had a keyman clause written into Whitney Houston's contract when he first signed her. When A&R reps put that much work into an artist, they are loathe to leave them behind and the artists rarely want to stay behind when the person that "cared" is gone and they are left with people that don't understand their artistry. Not to mention, bringing along your track record helps with your new contract negotiations with the new company.

[venusnv80]

I think these actions from Cookie is basically just Cookie. While some things have been changed about her, the personality is probably the same. She's like a bull in a china shop. All gas...no brake and its tiring to say the least. I think Anika used to be great at verbally sparring with her, but they pretty much took that away from her after the Elle incident, which pissed me off. Cookie needs an adversary, it's entertaining for me to see her go up against someone who is not just one of her verbal victims. 

 

I say this...if someone totally came back calling me anything other than my name just because...THAT would be a problem. If some chick started throwing out my clothes with her equally as loud assistant...THAT would be a problem. They declawed Anika and I think it was at the expense of Cookie and Cookie/Lucious. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by venusnv80

[ridethemaverick]

If Walter White and Stringer Bell can have diehard fans who sympathize with them, then Cookie sure can (I was a big fan of both terribly flawed characters myself).

I do think she needs a formidable opponent because Anika sure isn't it, at least in her current incarnation. I think (hope) a lot of this will be worked out in season 2.

[venusnv80]

That's right, even the worst of the worst characters have fans...Cookie definitely is not that, but it is expected. 

[phoenics]

I do think she needs a formidable opponent because Anika sure isn't it, at least in her current incarnation. I think (hope) a lot of this will be worked out in season 2.

I still think Anika can be that - but they need to give Anika more depth - right now she's too easy a target for Cookie to take down.

She could easily take Lucious and Cookie down by revealing that Empire was founded on Cookie's illegal drug money.

[Whitley Trillbert]

I still think Anika can be that - but they need to give Anika more depth - right now she's too easy a target for Cookie to take down.

She could easily take Lucious and Cookie down by revealing that Empire was founded on Cookie's illegal drug money.

I thought ( and this still may happen) that she would be the one to deliver the blow to Cookie that Luscious was the one who murdered Bunky. That just opens up a myriad of story potential for those three. 

[Badsamaritan]

If Walter White and Stringer Bell can have diehard fans who sympathize with them, then Cookie sure can (I was a big fan of both terribly flawed characters myself).

I do think she needs a formidable opponent because Anika sure isn't it, at least in her current incarnation. I think (hope) a lot of this will be worked out in season 2.

Rather than another lover in Lu's life, I would love to see his mama or who ever raised him as Cookie's opponent. Like a Della Reese 'Vera'.

[thuganomics85]

I'm still holding out Camilla as a decent foil for Cookie.  I thought she actually did a good job holding her own during their spat at the White Party last episode.  Since Cookie seems so sure Camilla is just using Hakeem, I can seem them keep going with it, assuming Naomi Campbell is available next season.

 

As for Cookie: she certainly as a ton of negative traits and I'm not blind to them, but for me: a) she's fun to watch b) Taraji P. Henson is awesome and c) there are worst out there.  Even on this show.  I still think the closet to being a "horrible" person on this show is Lucious.  He not only killed a childhood friend in cold-blood, but even played it up the mourning amongst the family and at the service, and was so over-the-top (and, if I'm being honest, hilarious.)  While he has his moments that make me wonder if there is a better person in there, I think he's about as close to horrible as you can get, and I don't think Cookie has reached his level at all.

[Jade Foxx]

 

Cookie loves her family for sure, but she's extremely rude, brazen, racist, insensitive, and justifies all of that under the guise of keeping it real.

 

I honestly don't think Cookie knows any other way to BE - there's no "guise" to it. She has no airs, her personality is unpolished and rough around the edges, AND she's at times calculated, vulnerable, insecure, and reactive. Yes, she's emotionally stunted, and bound to get burned eventually... But she's got moxie, and is charismatic as a muthafucker.

 

She's no academic, but she's got a social intelligence that allows her to navigate the Empire world, and I think what people are responding to in her character is that she is who she is,(trite, I know) and has no apologies, no filter, an unconventional skill set, and a huge heart.

 

Of course I want to see her grow and evolve, but she's fresh out of the penn and coming for hers, making up for lost time in every area of her life. Right now she's empowering herself the only way she knows how.

 

Cookie is no sophisticate, and doesn't need to be.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Ditto the comments upthread, Trai Byers gave a tour de force performance as he portrayed Andre going into a full blown bipolar episode. His pain was almost palpable.

 

Michael Muhney as Eliot "Eli" Wentworth.  Rhonda's Ivy League college ex. He's slick and smarmy but has Rhonda's back.

Whoa, that was a surprise. Yes! MM should have his people make some overtures. He would fit perfectly on this show. (But he was a bit of a prima donna on Y&R so if Lee Daniels (allegedly) had problems with a certain Oscar-winning actress/comedienne...)

 

Looked like purple drank/sizzurp.

And it sounded like Cookie called it "drink". Wouldn't she know better or is this another one of those cultural things that she missed while in prison?

 

I like Jussy's singing but ONLY D'angelo can pull off that How Does it Feel  video.

IMO, Jamal is cute and all but he has the body of young teenaged boy. D'Angelo in his heyday was like something chiseled by a Renaissance sculptor and then dipped in caramel.

[phoenics]

D'Angelo in his heyday was like something chiseled by a Renaissance sculptor and then dipped in caramel.

And chocolate. And nuts.

[CofCinci]

I'm not kicking Jussie out of bed for eating crackers.

[emjohnson03]

Can we just take a step back and admire the fact that Judd Nelson is the big baddie compeition? I almost can't just because he was the Rat Pack in the 80s and all that but he's still a baddie but in something totally different. Can Molly Ringwold come out and play his wife? (not really that snarky because that would be awesome!)

 

Another great episode. I am shocked at the fast pace it moves. It goes boom, boom and BOOM! I appreciate it because everything else takes so long and all you want is for them to just move it along. But I agree that there is a delicate balance.

 

I liked the music too in this episode. But man do I feel for Andre. The plot keeps moving and you don't know where it's going next.

[Kendall]

Can we just take a step back and admire the fact that Judd Nelson is the big baddie compeition? I almost can't just because he was the Rat Pack in the 80s and all that but he's still a baddie but in something totally different. Can Molly Ringwold come out and play his wife? (not really that snarky because that would be awesome!)

 

As soon as I saw him, all I could think was: John Bender made something of himself after all and still fine as ever. A little heavier, but still cute. If they bring a cleaned up Richard Grieco on this show ...

[DearEvette]

But why do they have a rack of basketballs in their boardroom?   Were they signed by famous NBA'ers?  I didn't see any signatures on them (I don't think).  After a long day of hammering out contracts do they push the table aside and play some hoops?

[roomtorome]

While I will miss this show when it's off - and, I really had zero idea how much I would take to it but, wow - I rather like the fact that the brief season moves story lines along quicker than it would if it was regular network length soap and I appreciate that - because you always have some idea where it's going when it's dragged out but boy, this is just bang bang bang

 

Some of the acting is really off the charts; so much could be pure camp, yet it stays just this side of it because the performances (and, directing) are so good.

 

Andre at the end - heartbreaking.  TB was really so good in it - what a rough scene to shoot, in all respects.

 

I loved the duet between Jamal and Delfine - that was beautiful; I was kind of lukewarm on the family song in the club but it was a nice scene - before a hell broke loose.  I admit Jamal is my favorite of the brothers - I like his style of singing and I just like him as a person all around better.  

 

Taraji P. Henson continues to blow my mind - it's like they just said "go balls out but hold back 15%" - amazing.  

[Luciano]

But why do they have a rack of basketballs in their boardroom? Were they signed by famous NBA'ers? I didn't see any signatures on them (I don't think). After a long day of hammering out contracts do they push the table aside and play some hoops?

It's either decor or they bounce them around in there. The boardroom's floor looks like it has as basketball court set-up/design too.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Luciano

[phoenics]

It's either decor or they bounce them around in there. The boardroom's floor looks like it has as basketball court set-up/design too.

There are actual basketball hoops in there... they had bluish backboards.

[riverheightsnancy]

I don't personally agree that Cookie is a cliched stereotype, however, even if Cookie exhibits some of the behaviors stereotypic of the ABW, she has every right TO BE ANGRY. I know that the ABW stereotype is often used against black woman because they supposedly have no reason to be angry and therefore shouldn't be loud. Cookie has a right to those feelings. Crap, 17 YEARS in prison. Her husband divorces her, 2 of her kids never see her or are brought to see her, and all she thinks about is getting back to them, alone in her cell, remembering the times that they had together. Singing, alone. Brutal.  It is like her life stopped at that very moment. 17 years go by and she wants to pick up where she (mentally and emotionally) left off. But everyone has left her behind. Selling drugs was wrong, she knows that, but she did her time, sacrificed for her family by going to prison and she gets rewarded by losing everything that mattered to her. If that doesn't make someone angry and want to get it all back, I don't know what would. I hate that her actions had someone killed (but this is part of what makes her flawed, a human and not perfect), we will see where they go with that.