The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[WindyNights]

18 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM on the other hand thinks that lots of people are interested in these books. In reply to a person complaining about the Targaryen history books on his blog:

I don't know if he is pretending to not understand why fans want TWoW instead of FAB or if he genuinely thinks that his readers would be satisfied with those other books. The fawning fans on his blog comment section don't help and as we have seen his self-esteem is pretty good considering he has put himself up there with Dickens, Fitzgerald and Tolkien.

I don't think he's putting himself up there. He's just using famous authors to get his point across.

If you read his interviews, he has major self-esteem issues. Being compared to Tolkien got to him after ASOS and he became even more of a perfectionist than he already was.

AFFC and ADWD are extremely layered compared to AGOT-ASOS even if it came at the expense of the plot which according to GRRM isn't his priority.

It feels like GRRM is trying to write literature instead of pulp fantasy after ASOS whether he pulls it off is up to the reader.

[Black Knight]

18 hours ago, ElizaD said:

The pre-TV era was a totally different experience from a doorstopper series like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, where fans complained about the bloat and joked about Jordan dying before he finished the series without ever really expecting it to happen because we were still getting huge novels every couple of years that moved the plot forward in tiny steps. In the end, Jordan got out of the swamp of fantasy worldbuilding bloat and his final book set the stage for the endgame that was then finished by another author based on the notes Jordan made after he was diagnosed with terminal illness; I have a lot of respect for Jordan for understanding how important it was to have that ending and working on it while he was literally dying.

Eh, in Jordan's case he only started working on the endgame when a sizable portion of the fandom rose up and said they would not buy any more of the books until a final volume was announced. He'd written a bunch of cash grab filler books in which Nothing Happened, and I completely believe he would have gone on doing just that otherwise. Tor heard the boycott threats and let Jordan know the money train needed to reach its destination. I know opinion varies on the exact amount of filler in AFFC and ADWD, but wherever one falls on that spectrum, those books still don't approach the complete filler that were the last few WoT books before Tor made Jordan commit to Book Twelve being the last. (It's rather similar to what happened with the TV series Lost, which had devolved into filler episode after filler episode because ABC wanted the series to go on as long as possible, and so the showrunners couldn't get started on the path towards wrapping things up. The showrunners, in that instance, cleverly forced ABC's hand by penning THE most pointless filler episode of all time - the notorious Bai Ling guest star episode - which caused such an audience revolt that ABC finally gave in and agreed to committing to a final season. Whatever one thinks of the remaining seasons of Lost, there weren't filler episodes anymore after that.)

In some ways I do think the TV show killed any chance of the series being finished. I believe once the show passed the books and GRRM saw all his future plot twists given away one way or another (either by being spoiled onscreen, a la the R+L=J theory, or being spoiled as basically irrelevant by not being onscreen, a la Fake Aegon), he lost interest in writing. But GRRM really should have known not to sign a contract for a TV adaptation until he was done with his series.

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I remember a few years ago in relation to discussions about AFFC and ADWD's desperate need for editing, someone said that once an author reaches a certain level of popularity the editor loses any ability to reel them in and that the publisher pretty much lets the author do as they please. I have no idea whether that's true, but in GRRM's case, it would explain a lot.

Well, the issues there are two-fold. Yes, first, a well-established and successful author doesn't have to accept editing notes. But second, GRRM doesn't really turn manuscripts into his editor until he's done writing them. This hamstrings his editor, Anne Groell, because she doesn't get to advise on and help shape the book while it's being written, as happens with less established authors; meanwhile, his various publishers are anxious to get the book out as quickly as possible. This means his editor ends up giving just superficial notes on style, like "Don't repeat 'Words are wind' so often," (which GRRM ignored), because any substantial notes, were GRRM even to take them, would mean more time-consuming rewrites. Talking him into or out of even one major plot twist in a submitted manuscript could turn into a year of rewrites. Groell would probably find herself reassigned very quickly from GRRM if she did that, as her bosses would not be happy. Her assigned mission once she finally receives a GRRM manuscript is to send it to the presses ASAP, in a matter of weeks, not do anything that causes further delay.

Hilariously, in Jordan's case he was married to his editor, Harriet McDougal, and his books were still crap from an editing point of view. GRRM's use of "Words are wind" and "Where do whores go?" is positively paltry in comparison to Jordan's female characters crossing their arms beneath their breasts or one of Mat/Rand/Perrin thinking how he's not good with women like the other two are. From what I understand McDougal is actually a rather well-regarded editor, but he wasn't going to listen to his wife any more than another editor, apparently, and he didn't have to because he was successful enough.

[polyhymnia]

Nothing like being away from this site for a while and coming back to yet another period of non-news about non-publication!  It's gone past lame at this point to something entirely different (not from the posters here, but from the author).

 

And you, sir are no Dickens.  Or Tolkien.  Good day to you.

[Brn2bwild]

A possible explanation for why George RR Martin has not finished TWOW yet.

[Colorful Mess]

@WindyNights

No offense to BryndenBFish, PoorQuentyn, or Steven Atewell, but their theories all come down to: STANNIS IS BADASS.

That's not the best way to make predictions, especially when it's about a non-POV character.

No one wants to read about the Starks fighting each other over a castle that Stannis won for them. It's not even a thing the Starks would do. Are they going to have a Starkmoot? No, the Lords might want to do that, but Sansa would shut that down real quick and encourage them to support the new leader. 

That villain is the hero of the other side quote fits Dany vs. Jon more than an internal Stark war.

Yes, Stannis has a plan. But building up the idea that a character will survive, then killing them abruptly before they have a chance to achieve their grand destiny is kinda the author's schtick. Ned, Robb, Oberyn, Rhaego, and Tywin say hi.

I doubt GRRM is going to defer a chance to make it harder on the Starks just so Stannis can have his badass moment. 

My favorite thing is poor Quentyn is convinced Stannis will die fighting the Others and that’s where he’ll sacrifice Shireen. Because doing that to take back WF wouldn’t be a meaningful enough sacrifice for some reason? It basically comes down to: "Stannis has to do something heroic!" But saving the Wall from Mance, attempting to take back WF from the Boltons, going North and being the king who cared - that's about as much hero mileage as a daughter murderer is going to get.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[WindyNights]

19 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

@WindyNights

No offense to BryndenBFish, PoorQuentyn, or Steven Atewell, but their theories all come down to: STANNIS IS BADASS.

That's not the best way to make predictions, especially when it's about a non-POV character.

No one wants to read about the Starks fighting each other over a castle that Stannis won for them. It's not even a thing the Starks would do. Are they going to have a Starkmoot? No, the Lords might want to do that, but Sansa would shut that down real quick and encourage them to support the new leader. 

That villain is the hero of the other side quote fits Dany vs. Jon more than an internal Stark war.

Yes, Stannis has a plan. But building up the idea that a character will survive, then killing them abruptly before they have a chance to achieve their grand destiny is kinda the author's schtick. Ned, Robb, Oberyn, Rhaego, and Tywin say hi.

I doubt GRRM is going to defer a chance to make it harder on the Starks just so Stannis can have his badass moment. 

My favorite thing is poor Quentyn is convinced Stannis will die fighting the Others and that’s where he’ll sacrifice Shireen. Because doing that to take back WF wouldn’t be a meaningful enough sacrifice for some reason? It basically comes down to: "Stannis has to do something heroic!" But saving the Wall from Mance, attempting to take back WF from the Boltons, going North and being the king who cared - that's about as much hero mileage as a daughter murderer is going to get.

Alright so let me tear down your arguments one by one. 

1) Sansa is a 13 year old girl. If she were to show up with the Vale army at Winterfell, she would not be leading the coalition. Harry the Heir or Littlefinger would. She's still a minor with a claim. Would her fiance not want to be Lord of Winterfell? Would Littlefinger be cool with abandoning his plan for Jon? If Harry or Littlefinger want Sansa to be Queen of the North over Jon then they'll do it whether she has objections or not. It helps that the Vale would be there with the largest army in the region.

2) The ideas behind Stannis winning at Winterfell have less to do with Stannis being a badass and more to do with what's been set up. Again, we know that Stannis 100% survives the the Battle of Ice because he's going to burn Shireen per the show. We know that he's faked his own death. We know he has a plan. We know that Roose's Karstark plan has failed and that he doesn't know that it did fail. We know that tension in Winterfell is reaching a boiling point and they're starting to kill each other. We know that Manderly is planning betrayal at Winterfell even Roose thinks something is up. And we also know that Stannis, Theon and Asha are all in the middle of a blizzard at Winterfell where it's do or die. If they lose, they die even if they escape the Boltons they cannot escape the elements.

 

3) Aegon and Stannis are being set up to take down evil guys not just so they can have their badass moment but so that we can root for them in those moments and feel conflicted when the main characters come back to take their home from these two especially since they undergo parallel transformations. That's a lot more interesting than Jon and Daenerys go take down two idiot pyschopaths(Ramsay and Cersei). 

 

4) I think it would be weird in narrative sense to build elements for Stannis to win at Winterfell and give him a fake death and then give him a real death after he faked his death a two chapter later not to mention that again, we know Stannis will burn Shireen and they're half a thousand miles apart atm

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

1) Sansa is a 13 year old girl. If she were to show up with the Vale army at Winterfell, she would not be leading the coalition. Harry the Heir or Littlefinger would. She's still a minor with a claim. Would her fiance not want to be Lord of Winterfell? Would Littlefinger be cool with abandoning his plan for Jon? If Harry or Littlefinger want Sansa to be Queen of the North over Jon then they'll do it whether she has objections or not. It helps that the Vale would be there with the largest army in the region.

Well that's kind of a paternalistic view. So the author doesn't give Sansa any agency in the story. It's not like Dany got any by the time she was 14.

It's not hard to imagine that Sansa could do something on her own to affect the plot. LF thinks he has to teach her how to persuade and charm people, but it's something she already knows how to do, and she does it well. Political decisions don't just happen on the battlefield. They happen on the dance floor and with common courtesy. Sansa can figure this out on her own without his help.  If you read between the lines, Alayne is just playing dumb with LF in Winds. There is also the issue of LF having to creep around Sansa because she knows too much about his crimes. She actually has the upper hand here. He'd especially have to be careful around her because she's "stronger within the walls of Winterfell." And that's not just a metaphor. She's literally stronger because LF loses his power over her the moment she finds another family member to offer her protection instead of him. It's why she entertained the idea of revealing herself to Royce.

You are assuming she won't leave the Vale on her own. She could run away (grey girl prophecy). You are assuming Harry will live. He could die in the tourney or in the battle. He's just a side suitor, like Val. You are also assuming that Littlefinger or Harry won't sexually assault her. As much as I would hate it, there's strong predatory vibes from both. This is why I think she will try to leave the Vale on her own. Or, she may get kidnapped and escape and decide to go North anyway. No matter how it goes down, Sansa could threaten to expose his crimes done to her and others, to turn the Lords against him. Sansa could go to work to undermine him in subtle ways. Sansa also has Sweetrobin in her pocket. And she would have her family together. Royce could also be in the picture. Unlike his show version, he doesn't take LF's shit.

Quote

2) The ideas behind Stannis winning at Winterfell have less to do with Stannis being a badass and more to do with what's been set up. Again, we know that Stannis 100% survives the the Battle of Ice because he's going to burn Shireen per the show. We know that he's faked his own death.

Ramsay doesn't say Stannis has died in the Pink Letter. Ramsay just says Stannis' army is defeated and he has his sword. And even if he did fake his own death, that still doesn't change the fact that his army is going to be destroyed and he's going to be at the point of desperation, and willing to do something drastic like burn his kid.

Quote

We know he has a plan. 

So what. So did Robb and Catelyn. Jon's plans got foiled just as he was charging off to do something. This time it's Stannis' turn. The more Stannis is confident he can win, the more he's at risk for falling into the hubris trap. It's not outrageous to suggest that maybe...the author is misleading us once again, for a plot twist.

Quote

We know that Roose's Karstark plan has failed and that he doesn't know that it did fail. We know that tension in Winterfell is reaching a boiling point and they're starting to kill each other. We know that Manderly is planning betrayal at Winterfell even Roose thinks something is up. And we also know that Stannis, Theon and Asha are all in the middle of a blizzard at Winterfell where it's do or die. If they lose, they die even if they escape the Boltons they cannot escape the elements. 

Manderly is in no position to do anything like pull off a double-cross right now. His neck got sliced open. Moreover, he could be healed by the time the Starks come around after Stannis is dead. It's more satisfying if he pulls off the Northern conspiracy plan for an actual Stark army, which he might be able to do if he's held hostage in WF for a while.

And because they're killing each other, Ramsay is more likely to just take it to the field. Plus, Ramsay also knows Stannis' location! Stannis also has to contend with a force of Freys. His plans could work for ONE of those contingent forces - but not both. His luck is running out. And why can't Asha and Theon just escape during the chaos?

Quote

3) Aegon and Stannis are being set up to take down evil guys not just so they can have their badass moment but so that we can root for them in those moments and feel conflicted when the main characters come back to take their home from these two especially since they undergo parallel transformations. That's a lot more interesting than Jon and Daenerys go take down two idiot pyschopaths(Ramsay and Cersei). 

Sure, I agree with that point. But Stannis fulfilled that purpose with Blackwater. The more interesting conflict would be two heroes - Jon and Dany - going to war with each other at a later date. But there has to be set up for it: Jon has to be declared King in the North just as Dany is killing a son of Rhaegar who is threatening her territories in the South. That would make us feel very worried about her interactions with Jon if she's killing her own family member or calling him a rebel and a fraud because he dared to cut out a slice of her kingdom for himself. Starks vs. Stannis is peanuts compared to this big conflict.

Moreover, if Stannis takes back WF instead of Jon, it would defy a law of resurrection that GRRM appears to be using: 

Quote

"One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord. Each time he’s revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it’s like, that’s what he’s clinging to...Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what’s animating him and bringing him back to death." - GRRM, Bullseye Interview

Jon's last mission: to kill Ramsay. If that doesn't happen, GRRM would be taking his carefully built foreshadowing and throwing it in the trash.

Quote

4) I think it would be weird in narrative sense to build elements for Stannis to win at Winterfell and give him a fake death and then give him a real death after he faked his death a two chapter later not to mention that again, we know Stannis will burn Shireen and they're half a thousand miles apart atm

I actually dont think he's faking his death. I think he was just telling Justin that he could die but he should carry on the fight in Shireen's name. 

And Mel could ride out to Stannis after his army is defeated. Mel left the room in Jon XIII after he read the letter. She knows Stannis is alive and has no army left. All she has to do is use her powers to try to find Stannis' location, take Shireen with her, and convince Stannis he needs to pull off a last ditch effort to raise a dragon or some nonsense like that.

Moreover, if Shireen's sacrifice is what causes Jon to be resurrected, how is Jon going to be at Winterfell for a Starkmoot?? Stannis burns Shireen much later, as the Wall is falling, or something like that? So is Jon going to be dead for all of Winds? There's no logic to any of these predictions.

Stannis' fate is spelled out in Jon's first chapter in ADWD:  just another doomed pretender. We were supposed to see that come to fruition at the end of Dance, but it got cut.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[WindyNights]

56 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Well that's kind of a paternalistic view. So the author doesn't give Sansa any agency in the story. It's not like Dany got any by the time she was 14.

It's not hard to imagine that Sansa could do something on her own to affect the plot. LF thinks he has to teach her how to persuade and charm people, but it's something she already knows how to do, and she does it well. Political decisions don't just happen on the battlefield. They happen on the dance floor and with common courtesy. Sansa can figure this out on her own without his help.  If you read between the lines, Alayne is just playing dumb with LF in Winds. There is also the issue of LF having to creep around Sansa because she knows too much about his crimes. She actually has the upper hand here. He'd especially have to be careful around her because she's "stronger within the walls of Winterfell." And that's not just a metaphor. She's literally stronger because LF loses his power over her the moment she finds another family member to offer her protection instead of him. It's why she entertained the idea of revealing herself to Royce.

You are assuming she won't leave the Vale on her own. She could run away (grey girl prophecy). You are assuming Harry will live. He could die in the tourney or in the battle. He's just a side suitor, like Val. You are also assuming that Littlefinger or Harry won't sexually assault her. As much as I would hate it, there's strong predatory vibes from both. This is why I think she will try to leave the Vale on her own. Or, she may get kidnapped and escape and decide to go North anyway. No matter how it goes down, Sansa could threaten to expose his crimes done to her and others, to turn the Lords against him. Sansa could go to work to undermine him in subtle ways. Sansa also has Sweetrobin in her pocket. And she would have her family together. Royce could also be in the picture. Unlike his show version, he doesn't take LF's shit.

Ramsay doesn't say Stannis has died in the Pink Letter. Ramsay just says Stannis' army is defeated and he has his sword. And even if he did fake his own death, that still doesn't change the fact that his army is going to be destroyed and he's going to be at the point of desperation, and willing to do something drastic like burn his kid.

So what. So did Robb and Catelyn. Jon's plans got foiled just as he was charging off to do something. This time it's Stannis' turn. The more Stannis is confident he can win, the more he's at risk for falling into the hubris trap. It's not outrageous to suggest that maybe...the author is misleading us once again, for a plot twist.

Manderly is in no position to do anything like pull off a double-cross right now. His neck got sliced open. Moreover, he could be healed by the time the Starks come around after Stannis is dead. It's more satisfying if he pulls off the Northern conspiracy plan for an actual Stark army, which he might be able to do if he's held hostage in WF for a while.

And because they're killing each other, Ramsay is more likely to just take it to the field. Plus, Ramsay also knows Stannis' location! Stannis also has to contend with a force of Freys. His plans could work for ONE of those contingent forces - but not both. His luck is running out. And why can't Asha and Theon just escape during the chaos?

Sure, I agree with that point. But Stannis fulfilled that purpose with Blackwater. The more interesting conflict would be two heroes - Jon and Dany - going to war with each other at a later date. But there has to be set up for it: Jon has to be declared King in the North just as Dany is killing a son of Rhaegar who is threatening her territories in the South. That would make us feel very worried about her interactions with Jon if she's killing her own family member or calling him a rebel and a fraud because he dared to cut out a slice of her kingdom for himself. Starks vs. Stannis is peanuts compared to this big conflict.

Moreover, if Stannis takes back WF instead of Jon, it would defy a law of resurrection that GRRM appears to be using: 

Jon's last mission: to kill Ramsay. If that doesn't happen, GRRM would be taking his carefully built foreshadowing and throwing it in the trash.

I actually dont think he's faking his death. I think he was just telling Justin that he could die but he should carry on the fight in Shireen's name. 

And Mel could ride out to Stannis after his army is defeated. Mel left the room in Jon XIII after he read the letter. She knows Stannis is alive and has no army left. All she has to do is use her powers to try to find Stannis' location, take Shireen with her, and convince Stannis he needs to pull off a last ditch effort to raise a dragon or some nonsense like that.

Moreover, if Shireen's sacrifice is what causes Jon to be resurrected, how is Jon going to be at Winterfell for a Starkmoot?? Stannis burns Shireen much later, as the Wall is falling, or something like that? So is Jon going to be dead for all of Winds? There's no logic to any of these predictions.

Stannis' fate is spelled out in Jon's first chapter in ADWD:  just another doomed pretender. We were supposed to see that come to fruition at the end of Dance, but it got cut.

1) Daenerys has dragons that she used to bind people to her. Sansa doesn't have dragons and she doesn't have hard power like that. She'd have to play a more subtle game than that so we agree there. But like who would the Vale be more loyal to? Sansa or Littlefinger/Harry the Heir? Besides, Sansa is being set up to bring down Littlefinger. This actually gives Sansa more motivation to actually take down Littlefinger . You're wrong about Alayne playing dumb with Littlefinger. She's actually becoming more and more loyal to him. She even feels satisfaction in making him proud in TWOW

2) The grey girl prophecy is Alys Karstark. Sansa wouldn't last in the wild going that far north during winter. It's literally over a thousand miles. 

3) No, I'm not assuming Harry will live. That's why I say Littlefinger/Harry the Heir. Personally, I do think Harry's going to make it until Winterfell at least. I think there's a kind of interesting dynamic about Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon and Robert Arryn's heirs butting heads at Winterfell.

 

4) Sweetrobin is a sickly little boy that's way too intimidated by Littlefinger to do anything about him. Littlefinger has power over the Vale as long as Robert is in his grasp. It's why Littlefinger can force everyone at the Eyrie and even Robert to do what he wants even when Robert doesn't want to. It's possible that Robert Arryn is going to mess up some of Littlefinger's plans but....Littlefinger is prophecized to die at Winterfell by Sansa's hands.

 

5)Royce might not go north with Littlefinger and LF is already winning over the rest of the Vale lords. Nothing much Lord Royce can do by himself.

 

6) Actually Ramsay explicitly says that Stannis is dead and that he has his magic sword.

"Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore."

So that by itself pretty much proves that Stannis faked his death and tricked Ramsay because GRRM confirmed that Stannis alive and D & D confirmed that Stannis will burn Shireen.

 

7) If Stannis were somehow to make it to the Wall, he still wouldn't be desperate enough to burn Shireen because at that point, he's already bound the Iron Bank to himself and can wait for Massey to gather that 20k sellsword army that he sent him to get. I don't see why he'd burn Shireen if all he has to do is wait a little longer to get the army he needs to crush the Boltons.

 

8)The mislead is that Stannis is dead. You're looking for a mislead in a mislead.

 

9) Stannis' turn isn't losing to the Boltons. It's losing to the Starks via the northerners  abandoning him for Jon.

 

10) Manderly is in the perfect position to pull off a double cross. His troops are positioned right behind the Freys when they go to attack Stannis.

 

------------

Lord Wyman Manderly slapped his massive belly. "White Harbor does not fear to ride with you, Ser Hosteen. Lead us out, and my knights will ride behind you."

Ser Hosteen turned on the fat man. "Close enough to drive a lance through my back, aye. Where are my kin, Manderly? Tell me that. Your guests, who brought your son back to you."

 

------------

Ser Hosteen, assemble your knights and men-at-arms by the main gates. As you are so eager for battle, you shall strike our first blow. Lord Wyman, gather your White Harbor men by the east gate. They shall go forth as well."

 

11) Asha can escape from the chaos. Theon is unlikely too. He's pretty crippled and they're in the middle of a blizzard where foraging for food is hard.

 

12) Jon's last mission is to protect Arya and take back Winterfell. Killing Ramsay too. But as I've already said, Ramsay could survive the Battle of Winterfell and retreat to the Dreadfort a la Cersei retreating to Casterly Rock once she's kicked out of KL. 

 

13) You think Stannis is going to take a day to be convinced to burn Shireen when it took him months to almost burn Edric especially when he has a sellsword army coming his way? Furthermore, Jon has to stay dead a lot longer for Shireen's death to resurrect him. Like weeks longer which would be several times longer than Lady Stoneheart. I feel like you're not taking logistics and narrative structure into account here.

14) Other way around, I think. The end of ADWD was probably supposed to end with Stannis entrenched in Winterfell. You have to look at Theon's arc in parallel. It's my firm opinion that Theon's story in ADWD was going to end with his execution via Stannis' hands at the godswood in Winterfell after Stannis' win. It gives Theon a complete arc in the book too.  

You might bring up the show here but the show's version of Theon is pretty inconsequential, likely to die before the end and there could've been a big butterfly effect where rushing Stannis' demise also meant that Theon couldn't be killed the way that he would be in the books and since there's no material past that for him, they just had him tagalong with Asha to do things in the show until they could find a good moment for him to die.

[Colorful Mess]

Littlefinger has plans and you think he will get to carry them out in some way. It's the same story with Stannis. It seems like you and I are reading the text differently. I don't think plans will go as expected - some may not even get off the ground.

Sansa is pretending like she doesn't know how to win Harry over because she doesn't actually want to do it. She doesn't need to take flirting lessons from LF of all people. She can't marry again anyway, because of Tyrion. 

That entire chapter illustrates how she's retreating into her fairy tale world when she feels anxious - which is a tell that things will go horribly wrong. Either Shadrich plays a role, or LF grows overconfident and assaults her. This would cause her to leave on her own volition. It's basic creative writing structure to have characters rebel against their parents/teachers and it's time for her to do that. She could run away and then need his assistance at a later date. That's a great dilemma and it works for her arc.

That's why I'm saying the show's version of events (minus Ramsay) actually made sense: 

• She flees out of anger at him.
• She still needs his help to take back WF.
• Yet she doesn't want to ask her rapist for help.

Voila, conflict!

When I read your idea for her, it sounds like she's just being maneuvered around in the background while LF and Harry attempt to make her queen? ? ?

On the grey girl:

1) The prophecy had 2 mistakes. The correct one could be the third (rule of 3), and Sansa meets all the criteria.

2) "grey" is significant color attached to Winterfell - Alys doesn't fit.

3) the text never describes the color of her cloak. If Alys "fulfilled" the prophecy, don't you think that would be worth mentioning?

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

I think there's a kind of interesting dynamic about Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon and Robert Arryn's heirs butting heads at Winterfell.

It sounds like a very uninteresting and unlikely conflict. 

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

4) Sweetrobin is a sickly little boy that's way too intimidated by Littlefinger to do anything about him. Littlefinger has power over the Vale as long as Robert is in his grasp. It's why Littlefinger can force everyone at the Eyrie and even Robert to do what he wants even when Robert doesn't want to. It's possible that Robert Arryn is going to mess up some of Littlefinger's plans but....Littlefinger is prophecized to die at Winterfell by Sansa's hands.

As long as Robert is in his grasp, yes, but LF's being negligent. The Lords have to listen to LF because they're in debt to him, but he's basically Gatsby. His largess is built on a ponzi scheme. He's slowly going to lose influence. Sansa could just call the shots through Sweetrobin anyway, if she starts to replace him as his benefactor instead. She's basically his mom. The Vale knights would bow to her anyway, without LF or Harry. She knows how to get them to love her because she's busy planning ways to reward them with tourney favors. They eat that shit up.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

5)Royce might not go north with Littlefinger and LF is already winning over the rest of the Vale lords. Nothing much Lord Royce can do by himself.

LF and Royce are playing a game of wards right now. Royce is determined to take him down. He'd have more influence in the North than Littlefinger does, because of his connections to Ned and Cat. I think he would be part of the Vale army if they arrive in the North, but he wouldn't follow LF's orders.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

6) Actually Ramsay explicitly says that Stannis is dead and that he has his magic sword.

"Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore."

So that by itself pretty much proves that Stannis faked his death and tricked Ramsay because GRRM confirmed that Stannis alive and D & D confirmed that Stannis will burn Shireen.

The careful reader should catch that the first part is a lie. If he was actually dead and in possession of Stannis' body, Ramsay would have bragged about that, like he did about the heads on the walls of WF or Mance in his crow cage. There isn't proof that Stannis faked anything. Ramsay just doesn't know where he is.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

7) If Stannis were somehow to make it to the Wall, he still wouldn't be desperate enough to burn Shireen because at that point, he's already bound the Iron Bank to himself and can wait for Massey to gather that 20k sellsword army that he sent him to get. I don't see why he'd burn Shireen if all he has to do is wait a little longer to get the army he needs to crush the Boltons.

You are expecting Stannis to think rationally when he's the guy who believes he is the savior of the world, the rightful king, the answer to prophecy, and the instrument of the religion he's using? With that kind of delusion already built into his character, and after suffering a crushing defeat, I doubt he's going to be patiently waiting for his sellswords. The sellsword idea is a ridiculous one anyway. Like sellswords in Essos could actually win Winterfell, just as Winter is starting? Crack. Stannis should know better.

Also, there another storm coming at the end of Jon XIII. Stannis is likely going to be stuck in the snows again and Mel will have to ride out to find him, which is why I dont think he can make it to the Wall.

GRRM would of course ratchet up the desperation here: Massey could be dead. He might not be able to sail because the seas are rough. Tycho could hear about Stannis' defeat and decide to revoke the loan. Ramsay could still be out there hunting him down. 

Whatever it is, the larger point is that burning Shireen happens because of Stannis' own hubris - as a southerner, he overestimates his abilities to fight in Northern conditions.

He thinks that a Southron army can go North and have success. Southerners cannot win in Northern conditions. It even breaks a commander as iron-willed as Stannis. Stannis isn't the brilliant commander you're making him out to be - you can see it when Jon, a 16 year old, has to school him on Northern armies. I don't think Stannis is that special to win where Napoleon failed. Sorry. Ramsay, the Northerner, wins this round, against the southerner. 

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

8)The mislead is that Stannis is dead. You're looking for a mislead in a mislead.

I'm talking about a mislead based on the first Theon chapter in Winds, which is where people are getting all the Stannis Hype. If you're optimistic about Stannis' chances and he's optimistic about his own chances after reading this, it's is not a good sign. 

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

10) Manderly is in the perfect position to pull off a double cross. His troops are positioned right behind the Freys when they go to attack Stannis.

So what do you think happens when Ramsay hears of this double cross, as he most likely will? Ramsay would just attack Stannis on his vulnerable side. Manderly himself is a sitting duck right now. 

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

12) Jon's last mission is to protect Arya and take back Winterfell. Killing Ramsay too. But as I've already said, Ramsay could survive the Battle of Winterfell and retreat to the Dreadfort a la Cersei retreating to Casterly Rock once she's kicked out of KL. 

His mission wasn't to protect Arya. He wasn't even looking for Arya - he wants Mel to find Ramsay.

This seems like a convoluted way to avoid the best narrative choice: Jon taking back his ancestral home, himself. It's Jon's home that has been defiled, not Stannis'. Jon killing Ramsay AT Winterfell makes sense because of the ruse he pulled in taking it.

Your idea also loses the irony of Jon using a wildling army to attack Winterfell - which is hilariously great.

Doesnt it feel a little off that Jon is winning a kingship and does nothing to take WF back - it's just because of Robb's will?

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

13) You think Stannis is going to take a day to be convinced to burn Shireen when it took him months to almost burn Edric especially when he has a sellsword army coming his way? Furthermore, Jon has to stay dead a lot longer for Shireen's death to resurrect him. Like weeks longer which would be several times longer than Lady Stoneheart. I feel like you're not taking logistics and narrative structure into account here.

Logistics? I feel like you're not taking into account how Stannis has been drinking Mel's kool aid for a long time now.  He's following the advice of prophets who speak word garbage in his ear, and he listens because he looks for a shortcut to win.

He's also burning a family member in his VERY FIRST SCENE in the show.

Stannis basically does whatever Mel says because he believes in her magic. He's completely misunderstanding everything about how to win this war. We're not even sure if Azor Ahai is even a hero on the side of "good." He's caught up in prophecy and it's going to doom him. Burning her because the Wall has fallen and the Others are arriving is basically a free pass for this guy to look heroic. It's not a heroic act. That's the point. Sacrificing her when hope looks lost for his cause seals his character's fate as someone who was always going to do this, for the wrong reasons, and at the wrong time.

Quote

Furthermore, Jon has to stay dead a lot longer for Shireen's death to resurrect him. Like weeks longer which would be several times longer than Lady Stoneheart.

The rules on resurrections aren't an exact science.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

14) Other way around, I think. The end of ADWD was probably supposed to end with Stannis entrenched in Winterfell. You have to look at Theon's arc in parallel. It's my firm opinion that Theon's story in ADWD was going to end with his execution via Stannis' hands at the godswood in Winterfell after Stannis' win. It gives Theon a complete arc in the book too.  

Stannis making two sacrifices in the same novel, that go nowhere? Why? I think Theon lives on.

He still has to do something that actually helps the Starks directly, and Jeyne aint it. 

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

You might bring up the show here but the show's version of Theon is pretty inconsequential, likely to die before the end and there could've been a big butterfly effect where rushing Stannis' demise also meant that Theon couldn't be killed the way that he would be in the books and since there's no material past that for him, they just had him tagalong with Asha to do things in the show until they could find a good moment for him to die.

Sorry, I'm not following any of this.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[WindyNights]

14 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Littlefinger has plans and you think he will get to carry them out in some way. It's the same story with Stannis. It seems like you and I are reading the text differently. I don't think plans will go as expected - some may not even get off the ground.

Sansa is pretending like she doesn't know how to win Harry over because she doesn't actually want to do it. She doesn't need to take flirting lessons from LF of all people. She can't marry again anyway, because of Tyrion. 

That entire chapter illustrates how she's retreating into her fairy tale world when she feels anxious - which is a tell that things will go horribly wrong. Either Shadrich plays a role, or LF grows overconfident and assaults her. This would cause her to leave on her own volition. It's basic creative writing structure to have characters rebel against their parents/teachers and it's time for her to do that. She could run away and then need his assistance at a later date. That's a great dilemma and it works for her arc.

That's why I'm saying the show's version of events (minus Ramsay) actually made sense: 

• She flees out of anger at him.
• She still needs his help to take back WF.
• Yet she doesn't want to ask her rapist for help.

Voila, conflict!

When I read your idea for her, it sounds like she's just being maneuvered around in the background while LF and Harry attempt to make her queen? ? ?

On the grey girl:

1) The prophecy had 2 mistakes. The correct one could be the third (rule of 3), and Sansa meets all the criteria.

2) "grey" is significant color attached to Winterfell - Alys doesn't fit.

3) the text never describes the color of her cloak. If Alys "fulfilled" the prophecy, don't you think that would be worth mentioning?

It sounds like a very uninteresting and unlikely conflict. 

As long as Robert is in his grasp, yes, but LF's being negligent. The Lords have to listen to LF because they're in debt to him, but he's basically Gatsby. His largess is built on a ponzi scheme. He's slowly going to lose influence. Sansa could just call the shots through Sweetrobin anyway, if she starts to replace him as his benefactor instead. She's basically his mom. The Vale knights would bow to her anyway, without LF or Harry. She knows how to get them to love her because she's busy planning ways to reward them with tourney favors. They eat that shit up.

LF and Royce are playing a game of wards right now. Royce is determined to take him down. He'd have more influence in the North than Littlefinger does, because of his connections to Ned and Cat. I think he would be part of the Vale army if they arrive in the North, but he wouldn't follow LF's orders.

The careful reader should catch that the first part is a lie. If he was actually dead and in possession of Stannis' body, Ramsay would have bragged about that, like he did about the heads on the walls of WF or Mance in his crow cage. There isn't proof that Stannis faked anything. Ramsay just doesn't know where he is.

You are expecting Stannis to think rationally when he's the guy who believes he is the savior of the world, the rightful king, the answer to prophecy, and the instrument of the religion he's using? With that kind of delusion already built into his character, and after suffering a crushing defeat, I doubt he's going to be patiently waiting for his sellswords. The sellsword idea is a ridiculous one anyway. Like sellswords in Essos could actually win Winterfell, just as Winter is starting? Crack. Stannis should know better.

Also, there another storm coming at the end of Jon XIII. Stannis is likely going to be stuck in the snows again and Mel will have to ride out to find him, which is why I dont think he can make it to the Wall.

GRRM would of course ratchet up the desperation here: Massey could be dead. He might not be able to sail because the seas are rough. Tycho could hear about Stannis' defeat and decide to revoke the loan. Ramsay could still be out there hunting him down. 

Whatever it is, the larger point is that burning Shireen happens because of Stannis' own hubris - as a southerner, he overestimates his abilities to fight in Northern conditions.

He thinks that a Southron army can go North and have success. Southerners cannot win in Northern conditions. It even breaks a commander as iron-willed as Stannis. Stannis isn't the brilliant commander you're making him out to be - you can see it when Jon, a 16 year old, has to school him on Northern armies. I don't think Stannis is that special to win where Napoleon failed. Sorry. Ramsay, the Northerner, wins this round, against the southerner. 

I'm talking about a mislead based on the first Theon chapter in Winds, which is where people are getting all the Stannis Hype. If you're optimistic about Stannis' chances and he's optimistic about his own chances after reading this, it's is not a good sign. 

So what do you think happens when Ramsay hears of this double cross, as he most likely will? Ramsay would just attack Stannis on his vulnerable side. Manderly himself is a sitting duck right now. 

His mission wasn't to protect Arya. He wasn't even looking for Arya - he wants Mel to find Ramsay.

This seems like a convoluted way to avoid the best narrative choice: Jon taking back his ancestral home, himself. It's Jon's home that has been defiled, not Stannis'. Jon killing Ramsay AT Winterfell makes sense because of the ruse he pulled in taking it.

Your idea also loses the irony of Jon using a wildling army to attack Winterfell - which is hilariously great.

Doesnt it feel a little off that Jon is winning a kingship and does nothing to take WF back - it's just because of Robb's will?

Logistics? I feel like you're not taking into account how Stannis has been drinking Mel's kool aid for a long time now.  He's following the advice of prophets who speak word garbage in his ear, and he listens because he looks for a shortcut to win.

He's also burning a family member in his VERY FIRST SCENE in the show.

Stannis basically does whatever Mel says because he believes in her magic. He's completely misunderstanding everything about how to win this war. We're not even sure if Azor Ahai is even a hero on the side of "good." He's caught up in prophecy and it's going to doom him. Burning her because the Wall has fallen and the Others are arriving is basically a free pass for this guy to look heroic. It's not a heroic act. That's the point. Sacrificing her when hope looks lost for his cause seals his character's fate as someone who was always going to do this, for the wrong reasons, and at the wrong time.

The rules on resurrections aren't an exact science.

Stannis making two sacrifices in the same novel, that go nowhere? Why? I think Theon lives on.

He still has to do something that actually helps the Starks directly, and Jeyne aint it. 

Sorry, I'm not following any of this.

1) No, Sansa absolutely wants Harry to like her at least in the beginning. We're literally in her head when she thinks all this. I agree that Shadrich is going to play a role but it seems he's just there so Sansa's identity can be revealed prematurely before Sansa and Harry are at the altar. My guess is that Sansa is going to leverage that moment to get the Vale knights to fight for her with promises to marry Harry at Winterfell.

2) Sansa will eventually rebel against Littlefinger but it'll be at the end of TWOW or the beginning of ADOS not at the beginning.

3) Alys Karstark meets all the criteria. 

Jon: "A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from a marriage, that was what you said."

Melisandre: "I was not wrong."

4) Sansa can charm people but she doesn't have mind control. If it's between Sansa and their liege lord, the Vale will pick their liege lord. So if Harry/LF say nah, they won't go.

5) The Stark loyalists in the North are all fighting with Stannis or the Boltons atm. Even if Stannis and the Boltons were to combine armies and merged Royce's, they still wouldn't be able to stand against the Vale. The North is demolished atm. 

6) Yes except Stannis also states to Justin that it may not be true if he hears that Stannis is dead when he sends him off to the Wall. That sounds like a set up for a fake out death or maybe Stannis was looking into the flames when he saw that.

7)Sellswords in the North could absolutely win. Stannis basically has unlimited funds with the Iron Bank backing him. He could hire sellswords, a fleet, and supplies.  You can still war in the winter, ya know. 

8) No, that's the show's point about Stannis. The book's point about Stannis is how far he's willing to go for his good intentions. 

9) Russia isn't the North. The Russians literally played a guerilla campaign against Napoleon and scorched their own land to win. The Boltons aren't doing that. They baited Stannis to come at them at Winterfell so they can have a showdown to decide everything and Roose came up with a plan to take Stannis down from within. The problem is that Stannis discovered and he's literally stuck in a building with people who hate each other.

10) Ramsay isn't an accomplished general. He was literally raised as a peasant until a year before the story starts. Ramsay knows the land around the Dreadfort but it's unlikely he knows the land around Winterfell and you have to take into account that half of Stannis' army is made up of northerners.

11) But we don't know what Stannis' plan which increases the likelhood of it succeeding. If a character tells the audience the plan the chances do drop if it being a complete success but when a character hides it from you, they go up.

12) Lord Manderly likely went to Winterfell expecting to die. It's why he keeps baiting the Freys.  Lady Dustin is extremely certain that Roose is going to kill Lord Manderly once the battle is over so storywise if Stannis loses here then Manderly is going to die and Manderly betrays the Boltons, he has a chance but might still die.

13) Jon's last thoughts are literally of Arya. "Stick them with the pointy end."

14) I'm not looking for what is ironic. I'm looking for what the story sets up. Jon is likely still going to Winterfell with a wildling army anyway. There just won't be a battle there.

15) No, it doesn't feel off because that's how he became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Unlike the show where Sam just hypes Jon up and it's a straightforward election, Sam tricks to commanders into supporting Jon based on lies and then Mormont's raven comes in as a nice piece of propaganda to swing things. It's not about earning it killing people. Jon's kind of falling upwards and I don't think Robb's will is going to be enough anyway. It just gives Robb a claim but Robb's will was based on the idea that Rickon was dead and Sansa would stay married to Tyrion so these are things that can be contested by Stannis and Littlefinger who likely have different candidates in mind for the new overlord of Winterfell.

16) First, Stannis doesn't burn anyone in his first scene on the show. He's burning statues. Look at it again if you want. Second, Stannis isn't drinking the kool aid from Melisandre just yet. He believes in the White Walkers and all the rest but he's still noticeable uncomfortable when Meisandre proclaims Stannis to be AA reborn and isn't convinced yet. He'll get there eventually but he's not at that line .

17) That's right, Stannis won't make it to the Wall under those conditions ergo he likely wins at Winterfell. I mean how is burning Shireen going to help Stannis in the middle of a blizzard? He'd have no army, there are stone dragons to awaken and melting the snow does nothing when he has no food or the numbers to fight even a pitched battle.

18) You're thinking about this too black and white. Just because Stannis burns Shireen to fight the Others doesn't make it heroic. It doesn't make it completely villainous either. It's a moment of moral ambiguity where you do something horrible to do save people. And we see throughout the story like where Jon kidnaps Gilly's baby and puts it in danger to save Mance's child. Leadership means not being able to keep your hands clean. 

19) Stannis isn't going to sacrifice Theon. He's just looking to straight up execute him to please the northerners. 

20)Theon doesn't have to do anything to help the Starks. He's kind of already come to the end of his arc. He's rediscovered himself and realizes the choices he made were awful.

This idea that redemption means that he has to help save a Stark is very Star Wars-esque. 

[GreyBunny]

Here's how I think it will go down for Stannis:

He'll win the Battle of Ice, the pink letter is written by Ramsay after being fed deliberate misinformation by Stannis and his allies (and after killing Roose). I think Asha will be our POV for the troops in the field as she and her men along with the Stark-loyal northmen will dress up in the clothes and armor of the defeated Freys to infiltrate Winterfell. Theon will remain our POV for Stannis at least until Asha returns. (Skagos will keep Davos busy for a while. He may not get back in time to see Shireen again.)

Ramsay gets killed. The Stark loyalists win. Stannis sets up shop in Winterfell and sends for his daughter, or he goes to the Nightfort. One way or another he'll be reunited with Shireen. Somewhere along the way Mel resurrects Jon at Castle Black and I don't think Shireen is sacrificed for Jon. Mel leaves CB to rejoin Stannis.

Then lots of other stuff happens including the Others breaching the Wall. The crapsack world just got way more crapsacky.

So there's Stannis and instead of a silly snow flurry like in the show, it'll be the end of the world. Extreme winter, famine, disease, undead zombies, the Others, etc., Stannis (and it will be him) will burn Shireen in a last ditch effort to save the world...and it won't work. Killing her will have been all for nothing. He'll die a broken man.

Edited October 16, 2018 by GreyBunny

[nikma]

Quote

“I’ve been struggling with it for a few years,” he told the Guardian. “The Winds of Winter is not so much a novel as a dozen novels, each with a different protagonist, each having a different cast of supporting players, antagonists, allies and lovers around them, and all of these weaving together against the march of time in an extremely complex fashion. So it’s very, very challenging. Fire and Blood by contrast was very simple. Not that it’s easy – it still took me years to put together – but it is easier.”

Quote

He confirmed that the sixth instalment was his next priority: “The Winds of Winter is next, then I’ll decide what comes after that – whether it’s to go on to A Dream of Spring, the last one, or whether I switch back into Fire and Blood II, do another Dunk and Egg story or two. But I’ll worry about that one thing at a time – that’s too far ahead.”

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/10/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-the-winds-of-winter-interview?platform=hootsuite

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, nikma said:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/10/game-of-thrones-george-rr-martin-the-winds-of-winter-interview?platform=hootsuite

Most depressing tidbits from this interview and the companion interview published at the same time:

1. The author states that she wasn't even allowed to ask GRRM questions about TWOW.

2. GRRM isn't sure whether or not he wants to write ADOS right after TWOW.

3. GRRM thinks it's "too far ahead" to worry about what to work on after TWOW.

4. GRRM's obvious enthusiasm for and in delight in writing Fire and Blood compared to his feelings about writing ASOIAF.

Yikes.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

As I said, I think there is no way to write a book with 20 POV characters. That's what I thought 5 years ago and that's what I think now. TWOW is just imposible to write in this format. He would need to continue with AFFC/ADWD style of separating characters in two books. And in those two books he would need to kill 8-10 POV characters in order to bring everything together in one book. And that one book would be Book 8. 

 

And he would maybe even need book 9 to finish everything.

[ElizaD]

GRRM's failure to publish ADOS and perhaps even TWOW absolutely deserves to impact his legacy. He started something good, but he proved unable to finish it because of the mess he made in AFFC/ADWD. IMO, it won't be right to claim that his ending would surely have been trope-breaking and infinitely more intelligent than whatever happens in season 8: we won't know because GRRM choked during the training arcs, before he had to make a stand and bring it all together. And that really shouldn't be seen by the fandom as such a good sign for what his ending would have been. The only thing we will know with certainty is that he couldn't get past the obstacles of which he was the sole author. He shouldn't be called one of the greats of fantasy when his defining work, the only one that has ever raised him out of the relative obscurity of the fantasy reader bubble (due to massive help from HBO), is defined above all by his failure to deliver on his promises.

[WindyNights]

12 hours ago, ElizaD said:

GRRM's failure to publish ADOS and perhaps even TWOW absolutely deserves to impact his legacy. He started something good, but he proved unable to finish it because of the mess he made in AFFC/ADWD. IMO, it won't be right to claim that his ending would surely have been trope-breaking and infinitely more intelligent than whatever happens in season 8: we won't know because GRRM choked during the training arcs, before he had to make a stand and bring it all together. And that really shouldn't be seen by the fandom as such a good sign for what his ending would have been. The only thing we will know with certainty is that he couldn't get past the obstacles of which he was the sole author. He shouldn't be called one of the greats of fantasy when his defining work, the only one that has ever raised him out of the relative obscurity of the fantasy reader bubble (due to massive help from HBO), is defined above all by his failure to deliver on his promises.

Idk about that. The Gormeghast is still one the best fanasies ever created even though it was never completed and Mervyn Peale wrote less than GRRM.

Edited November 11, 2018 by WindyNights

[blackwing]

Article in EW about his latest book "Fire and Ice":  https://ew.com/author-interviews/2018/11/19/george-rr-martin-interview/

His answers piss me off to no end.  I cannot believe that it has been TWENTY TWO years since I started reading this series.  It's been seven years since Book 5.  There were six years in between books 4 and 5, and five years in between books 3 and 4.

He acknowledges the disgruntlement of fans who have been waiting a long time for "The Winds of Winter" with a "it's not like I've been on a seven year vacation".

Screw you, George R.R. Martin!  I agree he hasn't been on a seven year vacation... he's just been spending those seven years finding ways to line his pockets.  The TV show, these two additional books, his Wild Cards books, the prequel, etc.  He's doing a huge disservice to the fans who were fans of the books long before the TV show even came out.  At this point, Book 7 will never get completed.  It'll probably be three more years before Book 6 comes out, and then another 10 years after that for Book 7 if he lives that long.  If he has no interest in writing these books, get someone else to do it.

[screamin]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 4:30 PM, WindyNights said:

Idk about that. The Gormeghast is still one the best fanasies ever created even though it was never completed and Mervyn Peale wrote less than GRRM.

Mervyn Peake was both artist and writer for Gormenghast, and severe Parkinson's kept him from finishing his tale (though honestly, I thought the villain's desert and Titus riding away from Gormenghast was a satisfying conclusion, and his sequel a pale shadow, possibly due to his encroaching illness). GRRM is only kept from the end of his tale by his overindulgence in whatever multiple sidetracks he grabs onto to avoid finishing it.

[Notwisconsin]

I just saw the book at my local B&N and it's about a thousand pages long. It may be that he's been working on this since before Game of Thrones (the book) was published, maybe not. But he promised the Winds of Winter would be finished some years back, and since he has refused to do a "Winds of Winter part one" like they did with the paperback versions of some of the books, then this is kick in the face to his fans.

[anamika]

24 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

No to the boldened. Legitimized children are counted after trueborn in the line of succession. So a legitimized Jon would be next in line after Bran, etc. This is why Ramsay Snow murdered his nephew.

According to GRRM, inheritance is a very vague and disputed topic in Westeros.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

Quote

What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims.

Which was why Catelyn was against it - these are not well defined laws and the person who has the power decides whether the legitimized bastard gets to be first or last.  As I said, it will ultimately be up to the Northern lords as to who becomes Lord of WF/KITN.  And as per the show, it looks to be Jon. There are strong chances it could be Rickon, given how insistent GRRM is that Rickon still lives in the books and he's essentially the spare Stark to carry on the Stark line. But I think there are strong chances that Jon will accept Robb's will, be Lord of WF/KITN and that will be bring him into conflict with the Sansa/LF faction down south. We saw aspects of a Stark civil war on the show. There are chances there will be a more well written conflict between the Starks in the books.

Edited December 1, 2018 by anamika

[Smad]

But then the show has Ramsey kill his little half-brother because as Sansa put it, his little half-sibling would come before him in the line of succession due to being the trueborn son of Roose. Even if Jon were legitimized, he comes from the female Stark line, not the male. So all of Ned's children come first anyway.

If his true parentage isn't discovered, at most I could see the North accepting Jon as Regent until a Stark comes of age, since all the Stark children at this point in the books are rather young, especially Rickon. But I can't see any of them rally behind Jon himself over any of Ned's legitimate children (even if the will is known), not with how much trouble the North is willing to go through for fArya and Rickon. And if hypothetically Sansa was in power in the Vale in some way and it became known in the North...why would the North side with Jon? If they announced Sansa as leader (without fear of another family taking over...meaning she isn't married to anyone at that point), they would be getting a freaking trifecta. Vale (Sweet Robin or whoever is in place there down the line) and Riverlands (Tully) via Sansa's family or power connections. Sounds like a sweet deal to me. 3 (Sansa) Kingdoms is better than 1 (Jon) IMO. Even the other trueborn Starks can bring at least 2 Kingdoms if the Tully's run the Riverlands.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

But then the show has Ramsey kill his little half-brother because as Sansa put it, his little half-sibling would come before him in the line of succession due to being the trueborn son of Roose. Even if Jon were legitimized, he comes from the female Stark line, not the male. So all of Ned's children come first anyway.

If his true parentage isn't discovered, at most I could see the North accepting Jon as Regent until a Stark comes of age, since all the Stark children at this point in the books are rather young, especially Rickon. But I can't see any of them rally behind Jon himself over any of Ned's legitimate children (even if the will is known), not with how much trouble the North is willing to go through for fArya and Rickon. And if hypothetically Sansa was in power in the Vale in some way and it became known in the North...why would the North side with Jon? If they announced Sansa as leader (without fear of another family taking over...meaning she isn't married to anyone at that point), they would be getting a freaking trifecta. Vale (Sweet Robin or whoever is in place there down the line) and Riverlands (Tully) via Sansa's family or power connections. Sounds like a sweet deal to me. 3 (Sansa) Kingdoms is better than 1 (Jon) IMO. Even the other trueborn Starks can bring at least 2 Kingdoms if the Tully's run the Riverlands.

Jon's kingship over the North will be temporary. I think it's really obvious that GRRM wants to give Jon everything he wanted like the Stark name, kingship and Winterfell  only to rip everything out from underneath him when he finds out his true identity. 

He's not a bastard so therefore he cannot be legitimized into a Stark, he's not Ned's son, his kingship is based on a lie and he did end up usurping Ned's kids.

He's a fake like Joffrey.

[Smad]

10 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Jon's kingship over the North will be temporary. I think it's really obvious that GRRM wants to give Jon everything he wanted like the Stark name, kingship and Winterfell  only to rip everything out from underneath him when he finds out his true identity. 

He's not a bastard so therefore he cannot be legitimized into a Stark, he's not Ned's son, his kingship is based on a lie and he did end up usurping Ned's kids.

He's a fake like Joffrey.

Isn't that just a tad mean though? I mean Jon just died after all. Why give him some 'light at the end of the tunnel', so to speak, only for then to snuff it out again pretty quick. What's Jon done in the books that's so bad lol.

[Colorful Mess]

Taking the Stark name just because of a piece of paper says he's legitimate isn't really Jon's way. It's something Ramsay would do. Also, Jon knew Sansa was married to Tyrion but he still insisted that Winterfell belonged to her. For that reason I think Jon would reject Robb pushing Sansa down the line of succession and also reject legitimization. Jon won't usurp his siblings/cousins rights unless it's directly from a living Stark with a verbal agreement. The Starks may argue with each other but they're not going to go to war. They either work together as a pack or they won't survive the winter. As long as Jon can do his job to rally the North with his siblings' backing, being a Stark and Lord of WF is unnecessary.

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Taking the Stark name just because of a piece of paper says he's legitimate isn't really Jon's way. It's something Ramsay would do. Also, Jon knew Sansa was married to Tyrion but he still insisted that Winterfell belonged to her. For that reason I think Jon would reject Robb pushing Sansa down the line of succession and also reject legitimization. Jon won't usurp his siblings/cousins rights unless it's directly from a living Stark with a verbal agreement. The Starks may argue with each other but they're not going to go to war. They either work together as a pack or they won't survive the winter. As long as Jon can do his job to rally the North with his siblings' backing, being a Stark and Lord of WF is unnecessary.

He can't reject legitimization. Robb didn't offer it to Jon. He legitimized Jon so Jon is officially Jon Stark to anyone that thinks Robb is a legitimate king which is most of the North. That is until Jon reveals his little secret and that Jon can't be legitimized into a Stark because he's a trueborn Targaryen

Also Sansa and Rickon are minors and therefore not in control of their side. Littlefinger and Stannis will be. So you have the man that helped murder Ned on the one hand and the man that wants to burn the godswood on the other.

5 hours ago, Smad said:

Isn't that just a tad mean though? I mean Jon just died after all. Why give him some 'light at the end of the tunnel', so to speak, only for then to snuff it out again pretty quick. What's Jon done in the books that's so bad lol.

Not for GRRM. See how he treated Ned, Cat, Quentyn Martell, Aeron Greyjoy, Arys Oakheart and Tyrion Lannister.

Like Tyrion's ASOS arc is all about breaking him and that is GRRM's favorite character that we're talking about.

The series is all about making people suffer and people persevering through their suffering or breaking as people. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by WindyNights

[John Potts]

Whether Jon is truly a Stark, Snow or Targaryen is irrelevant as much as who wins the Iron Throne in the end. After all, as Danny pointed out, part of the reason the Starks were able to retain their position as Lords of Winterfell after the Targaryen Conquest was because they bent the knee, acknowledging the supremacy of the Iron Throne to the Lord of Winterfell/King in the North. If you wanted to argue it from a legal standpoint, the Starks forfeited their right to hold Winterfell when they took up arms in Robert's rebellion and so Danerys has the right to appoint whoever she wishes to Winterfell and Lord Paramount of the North to replace the "traitorous" Starks (this is essentially what Tywin did by supplanting the Starks with the Boltons as rulers of the North - the Starks were "rebels" and the Boltons were "loyal"). But legal arguments only apply where people accept them and will be forced to concede to military might.

(I'm not saying that Danny would be wise to pursue this line of argument, but if she did meet a Perry of House Mason who tried to argue that Jon lacked the authority to return the North to the Seven Kingdoms, that would be one line of argument).

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

He can't reject legitimization. Robb didn't offer it to Jon. He legitimized Jon so Jon is officially Jon Stark to anyone that thinks Robb is a legitimate king which is most of the North. That is until Jon reveals his little secret and that Jon can't be legitimized into a Stark because he's a trueborn Targaryen

 

This is false. Daemon BLACKFYRE? Took whatever name he wanted for himself after he was legitimized by his own dad the king. Royal decree doesn't mean you have to start calling yourself by your Dad's last name. 

I see Jon getting the will, shrugging, and issuing a royal decree for himself: "call me Jon Snow."

Also I dislike the idea that he becomes a Stark before his parentage is revealed. It ruins the R+L=J twist because he goes from HIGHBORN to HIGHBORN. It takes away from that change in status.

I think he'll stay Jon Snow all the way until the end, until he starts a new House (ending the Targaryen line permanently). 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Smad said:

But then the show has Ramsey kill his little half-brother because as Sansa put it, his little half-sibling would come before him in the line of succession due to being the trueborn son of Roose. Even if Jon were legitimized, he comes from the female Stark line, not the male. So all of Ned's children come first anyway.

Because Roose was still alive? And Roose determines who becomes his heir? Ramsay's idea probably was that if all of Roose's children were dead, Roose had no choice but to make Ramsay his heir. But everything about that plotline with Ramsay/Roose/Sansa was idiotic. Apparently Ramsay married Sansa because she was the key to the North but no one cared after she ran away and they still supported Ramsay over Sansa.

If Ned was alive or if Robb knew that Arya, Bran and Rickon were alive, then he would not have legitimized Jon. He did it and disinherited Sansa (Because of her marriage to Tyrion) because he assumed only Jon was left. But Catelyn was still wary because she thought that there was a chance that Jon would usurp Robb's child.

Quote

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

 

9 hours ago, Smad said:

If his true parentage isn't discovered, at most I could see the North accepting Jon as Regent until a Stark comes of age, since all the Stark children at this point in the books are rather young, especially Rickon. But I can't see any of them rally behind Jon himself over any of Ned's legitimate children (even if the will is known), not with how much trouble the North is willing to go through for fArya and Rickon.

Well, as per the Grand Northern Conspiracy, there is a certain faction of Northerners who are rallying behind Jon (Mormont, Glover) . We have three factions essentially - those who were signatories and witnesses to Robb's will and think that Jon would be better as Lord Stark and KITN, Manderly backing Rickon and the houses backing Arya. I can also see Bran, Rickon and Arya backing Jon as KITN and Lord of Winterfell as their eldest Stark sibling and the person best qualified to take on the job.

http://zincpiccalilli.tumblr.com/post/52681254060

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/a-complete-analysis-of-the-upcoming-siege-of-winterfell-part-1/
The links above discuss all the Northern houses involved in the plot to take back the North from the Boltons and which house is supporting whom.

9 hours ago, Smad said:

And if hypothetically Sansa was in power in the Vale in some way and it became known in the North...why would the North side with Jon? If they announced Sansa as leader (without fear of another family taking over...meaning she isn't married to anyone at that point), they would be getting a freaking trifecta. Vale (Sweet Robin or whoever is in place there down the line) and Riverlands (Tully) via Sansa's family or power connections. Sounds like a sweet deal to me. 3 (Sansa) Kingdoms is better than 1 (Jon) IMO. Even the other trueborn Starks can bring at least 2 Kingdoms if the Tully's run the Riverlands.

Once again, Sansa is out of contention for WF as long as she remains married to Tyrion. Vale or no Vale army. This was a decision made by two people who loved her dearly - Robb and Catelyn. I am sure the Northerners don't want to see Tyrion sitting in WF anymore than the Boltons.

Quote

If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that.

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son."

Stannis mentions the same thing when Jon brings up Sansa. So unless Sansa annuls her marriage to Tyrion or Tyrion dies - which is what LF is hoping for, Sansa will not be considered by the Northerners for WF. We saw hints of this on the show where Lyanna makes fun of her marriages and Jon is made KITN despite Sansa being Ned's trueborn heir. Unlike the books, the show does not have a proper reason for this because they ignored her marriage to Tyrion for the idiotic Ramsay plot line.

As for the Riverlands and the Vale - both Edmure and his child and SweetRobin are still alive and Arya/Bran also have connections to them and can get their support. Edmure Tully was a signatory to Robb's will meaning Robb had his support in naming Jon his heir. SweetRobin's love for Sansa may see him support her.

So in the books, the keys to the North currently are Jon, Rickon and Arya. Bran is the actual Prince of Winterfell - he is named so in the books - but no one, apart from the Liddels know he is alive. And the only person pushing for Sansa is LF - who is waiting for Tyrion to die and has no idea about the goings on in the North.

Edited December 2, 2018 by anamika

[Smad]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Because Roose was still alive? And Roose determines who becomes his heir?

You yourself don't know, hence the question marks I assume. For me it's only logical that a legitimized bastard still comes after a true born. A name change doesn't change anything about who the parents are after all.

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Once again, Sansa is out of contention for WF as long as she remains married to Tyrion. Vale or no Vale army. This was a decision made by two people who loved her dearly - Robb and Catelyn. I am sure the Northerners don't want to see Tyrion sitting in WF anymore than the Boltons.

Which is why I already said 'Sansa not married to anyone'. LOL. You could have saved yourself the wall of the text that followed if only you read my reply.

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

This is false. Daemon BLACKFYRE? Took whatever name he wanted for himself after he was legitimized by his own dad the king. Royal decree doesn't mean you have to start calling yourself by your Dad's last name. 

I see Jon getting the will, shrugging, and issuing a royal decree for himself: "call me Jon Snow."

Also I dislike the idea that he becomes a Stark before his parentage is revealed. It ruins the R+L=J twist because he goes from HIGHBORN to HIGHBORN. It takes away from that change in status.

I think he'll stay Jon Snow all the way until the end, until he starts a new House (ending the Targaryen line permanently). 

It doesn't matter whether he calls himself Jon Snow or Jon Stark. He's a legitimized bastard and therefore highborn either way. 

Also Robb legitimized Jon as a Stark because he wanted Jon to continue House Stark. And I don't see why Jon wouldn't take the name temporarily at least because it legitimizes his rule.

Daemon Blackfyre took the Blackfyre name because he wanted to put special emphasis on the fact that he got the sword. 

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

You yourself don't know, hence the question marks I assume. For me it's only logical that a legitimized bastard still comes after a true born. A name change doesn't change anything about who the parents are after all.

It maybe logical to you, but the author of the books has stated that this is not clear and legitimized bastards can come before or after trueborn heirs.

4 hours ago, Smad said:

Which is why I already said 'Sansa not married to anyone'. LOL. You could have saved yourself the wall of the text that followed if only you read my reply.

Well you did  go on and on about the North choosing Sansa over Jon for a freaking Trifecta or some such which makes no sense since she will continue to remain married for some time. And since you were so confused on the show thread about why Jon was KITN over Sansa, I was trying to give you the details here. But apparently you are well aware of all this. Ok then.

Edited December 2, 2018 by anamika

[Smad]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

It maybe logical to you, but the author of the books has stated that this is not clear and legitimized bastards can come before or after trueborn heirs.

Well he should make up his mind then. Either his world has rules or it doesn't.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Well you did  go on and on about the North choosing Sansa over Jon for a freaking Trifecta or some such which makes no sense since she will continue to remain married for some time. And since you were so confused on the show thread about why Jon was KITN over Sansa, I was trying to give you the details here. But apparently you are well aware of all this. Ok then.

I was positing a scenario. That's why I went on and on. And for that scenario she should be free of her marriage to Tyrion (naturally, which is why I mentioned it). And the show makes no sense anyway (I'm not confused...very aware it doesn't make sense there) because Jon did nothing (except swing a sword) and had no status for any title to be given to him. And I'm also sure that GRRM will do better with this situation in the books should it come to it. But the show is different from the books anyway.

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

Well he should make up his mind then. Either his world has rules or it doesn't.

I was positing a scenario. That's why I went on and on. And for that scenario she should be free of her marriage to Tyrion (naturally, which is why I mentioned it). And the show makes no sense anyway (I'm not confused...very aware it doesn't make sense there) because Jon did nothing (except swing a sword) and had no status for any title to be given to him. And I'm also sure that GRRM will do better with this situation in the books should it come to it. But the show is different from the books anyway.

The rules are meant to be vague so that the nobles could pick the choices most beneficial to them 

[Hanahope]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:40 AM, blackwing said:

Article in EW about his latest book "Fire and Ice":  https://ew.com/author-interviews/2018/11/19/george-rr-martin-interview/

His answers piss me off to no end.  I cannot believe that it has been TWENTY TWO years since I started reading this series.  It's been seven years since Book 5.  There were six years in between books 4 and 5, and five years in between books 3 and 4.

He acknowledges the disgruntlement of fans who have been waiting a long time for "The Winds of Winter" with a "it's not like I've been on a seven year vacation".

Screw you, George R.R. Martin!  I agree he hasn't been on a seven year vacation... he's just been spending those seven years finding ways to line his pockets.  The TV show, these two additional books, his Wild Cards books, the prequel, etc.  He's doing a huge disservice to the fans who were fans of the books long before the TV show even came out.  At this point, Book 7 will never get completed.  It'll probably be three more years before Book 6 comes out, and then another 10 years after that for Book 7 if he lives that long.  If he has no interest in writing these books, get someone else to do it.

I have no intention of buying any books from him until/unless the original series is finished.  I know that we'll have to live with just the HBO version, which is ok for a summary type story, but I will miss all the complicated stories.

[ulkis]

On 5/4/2018 at 9:23 PM, Black Knight said:

But GRRM really should have known not to sign a contract for a TV adaptation until he was done with his series.

ita. But I don't think he would have ever finished anyway. Instead of starting to wrap it up after "Storm of Swords", he just kept expanding. 

it's too bad that he didn't just decide to help write the tv show. Completely, I mean, instead of just some episodes in the first two seasons.

[Lady S.]

22 hours ago, ulkis said:

it's too bad that he didn't just decide to help write the tv show. Completely, I mean, instead of just some episodes in the first two seasons.

Yeah, I think he stopped writing for the show in s5, it seemed possible he could actually finish Winds before the show ended. It should have been clear to a normal person a while back that that deadline was going to pass him by too so why help them end the show instead?

[Eyes High]

On 4/15/2019 at 6:55 PM, ulkis said:

it's too bad that he didn't just decide to help write the tv show. Completely, I mean, instead of just some episodes in the first two seasons.

A while ago, GRRM's original script for 4x02 surfaced. It was substantially rewritten by D&D...so substantially, in fact, that I imagine D&D probably decided that going forward it was easier to do the scripts themselves than to go to GRRM for a script and then rewrite most of it.

There's this idea that because GRRM has a background in TV scriptwriting that his GOT scripts must be amazing and that it's a horrible tragedy that GRRM stopped writing scripts in S4, but it seems from GRRM's original 4x02 script that his scripts were plagued by the same problems as ASOIAF. Among other things, the script included a description of an elaborate, multi-course feast that they could only have reproduced for the show at enormous cost. Now, GRRM writes descriptions of an elaborate, multi-course feast in the books, and more power to him, but you can't just put that in a script for an actual show where there has to be budget allocated for the food and then let someone else worry about it.

It would have been nice to have more GRRM scripts, since he writes really good dialogue, but judging from the 4x02 original script, it seems like D&D were better off doing their own thing.

[nikma]

Yeah, that script for 402 felt like Rowling's scripts for Fantastic Beasts.

[Spartan Girl]

On April 17, 2019 at 7:13 AM, nikma said:

Yeah, that script for 402 felt like Rowling's scripts for Fantastic Beasts.

Say what you want about JK Rowling, but at least she keeps her deadlines! 

At this point, I don't give two shits whether GRRM finishes the books. It's never going to happen and I like the TV series better anyway.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Black Knight]

Order of the Phoenix was delayed enough that there was speculation that Rowling had writer's block. She's denied that but has admitted that she was fatigued and found the book a chore.

She also took a year off writing after giving birth. I can just imagine if GRRM were to take a year of paternity time...heh.

Re: the TV show, it sounds like continuing to have GRRM write scripts may not have been the best thing, although my view as to why that stopped is simply because the show veered away from the books and it would have been hard for him to keep the two versions straight - this person alive in the books but dead on the show, no point setting up foreshadowing for this plotline because the show isn't going to do it, etc.

And that's okay. But the show has significantly suffered in one area since it passed the books: Dialogue. It would've been cool if it would have been possible to write the scripts and then let GRRM take a pass through them fixing the dialogue. D&D have also not thought through some of the changes they've made, leaving some very gaping holes that you could drive a truck through, things that if GRRM were in the writers' room simply wouldn't have happened. D&D have had the sense to edit and streamline what GRRM wrote, but their record with their original material is spotty - dialogue that's merely okay, lots of illogical plot holes. But I enjoy the show and I'm grateful D&D is at least bringing it to a conclusion since I have no confidence the books will ever be finished. I do pray that there will be no episode this final season that is as painfully stupid as the penultimate episode of last season was, although there's already one gigantic plot hole that makes everyone at Winterfell look stupid as fuck heading into the third episode.

Spoiler

Namely - the Night King - who doesn't exist in the books, so we know this is entirely D&D's brainchild - is looking for Bran via the mark on his arm. And instead of moving Bran or at least his amputated arm to a different locale where they could maybe set up an ambush for the Night King, they are bringing the entire freaking army of the dead down on Winterfell, assuring the needless deaths of tons of people.

I can promise you, however that battle happens in the books, if we ever do get that battle in the books, the setup will not be so obviously avoidable.

[Spartan Girl]

On April 22, 2019 at 10:46 PM, Black Knight said:

Order of the Phoenix was delayed enough that there was speculation that Rowling had writer's block. She's denied that but has admitted that she was fatigued and found the book a chore.

She also took a year off writing after giving birth. I can just imagine if GRRM were to take a year of paternity time...heh.

Yeah but those three years are nothing compared to the full fucking decade since GRRM did the last book.

[Scarlett45]

I want GRRM to finish the book because I need something better than this. 

Any new info on Book 6?

[Azi]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I want GRRM to finish the book because I need something better than this. 

Any new info on Book 6?

I will, however, say for the record — no, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished. DREAM is not even begun; I am not going to start writing volume seven until I finish volume six.
GRRM's LJ

I did roll my eyes at him raging against the theory that he secretly finished the last two books, but agreed to hold them back cause of the show. On one hand, yes it's a dumb theory that never made a lick of sense, but him saying: "Why would my publishers — not just here in the US, but all around the world — ever consent to this?" just sounds so hollow what with him going over every deadline he ever had with these books.

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I want GRRM to finish the book because I need something better than this. 

Any new info on Book 6?

He did say back in April that the writing was going well. I can't imagine he wants his work to be known as what D&D put on screen. 

[Matt K]

11 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I want GRRM to finish the book because I need something better than this. 

Any new info on Book 6?

 I wouldn't hold my breath.  I think the real sticking point is still getting everything moving forward (like getting Danny to Westeros) and it seems unlikely he's made much progress on that since writing would probably be quicker once he can push forward again.  My best bet would be that sometime in the near future he announces that he's putting the series on hold indefinitely.

3 hours ago, Azi said:

 On one hand, yes it's a dumb theory that never made a lick of sense, but him saying: "Why would my publishers — not just here in the US, but all around the world — ever consent to this?" just sounds so hollow what with him going over every deadline he ever had with these books.

I imagine his publisher are pissed at him since he cost them millions of dollars*.  I wouldn't be surprised if they took money out of his cut.

*If either book came out before this season I'd have to imagine that there'd be a ton more people picking it up then now after the series is finished.  I'd think for a lot of casual fans they'd be interested in a new book just like the last book picked up a lot of casual readers.  I'd also imagine there's a decent contingent of more devoted fans that are now done with the series as well (especially if the books take another year or more to come out).  So that's a lot of lost revenue.  

Edited May 20, 2019 by Matt K

[Hanahope]

I'm not inclined to buy the next book if I have to wait another 10 years for the final book.  

[Ailianna]

WIth the show over, to be honest, I don't have much reason to even think about GOT anymore.  I may wait to buy any further books until they are all done, even if he gets 6 and 7 done and then declares he still needs to do 8 and 9.  I also am not buying any of the other books he's putting out, because I don't want to get interested in something with no conclusion.  I also don't really want to buy a fictional history textbook.  So at the rate we are going, even if he drinks from the Fountain of Youth and lives forever, it's another 20 to 50 years before I put another penny in his pocket--or his publisher's pockets (relating to these books).

Edited May 25, 2019 by Ailianna

[YaddaYadda]

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/21/thanks-new-zealand/

Quote

As for finishing my book… I fear that New Zealand would distract me entirely too much.   Best leave me here in Westeros for the nonce.   But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done.   Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine.

Worldcon is at the end of the summer of 2020.

[Black Knight]

On 5/22/2019 at 5:53 AM, YaddaYadda said:

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/21/thanks-new-zealand/

Worldcon is at the end of the summer of 2020.

I was just coming here to post that.

So, the question is whether Martin's really actually close to being done, or whether "summer of 2020" will become another deadline that messes with his head.

[glowbug]

17 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I was just coming here to post that.

So, the question is whether Martin's really actually close to being done, or whether "summer of 2020" will become another deadline that messes with his head.

Before the season aired (or maybe just after it started) he said writing for The Winds of Winter was going well, which I was surprised about because usually he would just answer the question so positively. I have to wonder if the terrible show ending has motivated him and perhaps gotten him (at least temporarily) past his writer’s block. That doesn’t mean he’ll actually finish but it does sound as if he’s making some progress at the moment.