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GreyBunny

The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

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Thanks Dougal and mad_typist.  

I created a new thread as some people who have read through book 5 might not want to know about book 6 until it's released and I wanted us spoiler junkies to have a place to play.

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LOVE spoilers! Bring 'em on! 

Hey does anyone else think the cast is lying when they say they haven't read the books? I saw Dinklage on Letterman(?) I think the other night (geez, he really needs to retire. It's sad), and he said he's never read them.

I call bullshit. I would HAVE to know everything about my character! 

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They might be lying, but I could see how not knowing might be beneficial in avoiding unintentionally playing the character like you know the future.

I'm actually still stuck on book 5. I've started reading it several times and stopped. I might wait for him to finish the whole thing and just read the whole series together like I'm currently doing with Wheel of Time or at least wait for the show to catch up.

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From what I understand many and perhaps most of the actors that have have read the books have read only up to the point where the show is.  Some have said that they don't want future events to encroach on their acting choices.  Others have said they wanted to do their own take on the characters (since some are so different from the book characters anyway) so reading ahead in the books isn't useful.

I think Rory McCann (Sandor) has read them all.  

So...battle of Meereen.  Who lives?  Who dies?  

I think Barristan will die eventually but not before he tells Dany her family's history.  I think that's his main plot purpose.

I also think Victarion and Jorah will mortally wound each other fighting over Dany.  One way or another I'm guessing she's going to get her hands on the Iron Fleet.

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I try not to pay attention to where the actors are regarding the books, though the one that really annoys me is Lena Headey, since she's gone so far as to lecture fans that they're being too hard on Cersei, when by this point the show has toned down enough of her actions (cutting her out of any responsibility for the bastard massacre comes to mind) that she has no idea what she's talking about.

On Winds of Winter, one thing I'm wary of is that the book will be featuring all the viewpoint characters again. This really seems like this could devolve into a Wheel of Time situation, with the story split so many ways that even with books as long as these, everyone's plot only progresses a few inches.

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the one that really annoys me is Lena Headey, since she's gone so far as to lecture fans that they're being too hard on Cersei, when by this point the show has toned down enough of her actions (cutting her out of any responsibility for the bastard massacre comes to mind) that she has no idea what she's talking about.

But that's kind of the point to not reading the books. Show Cersei is different from book Cersei, and she is playing show Cersei. 

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I think it's natural for an actor to be sympathetic to the character after living inside his/her head, despite how repugnant that character is.  Or at least publicly tell the audience "you don't know what it's like to be [so and so]!  I'm so misunderstood!"

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On Winds of Winter, one thing I'm wary of is that the book will be featuring all the viewpoint characters again. This really seems like this could devolve into a Wheel of Time situation, with the story split so many ways that even with books as long as these, everyone's plot only progresses a few inches.

Well, if it's like ADWD, then I'll be skipping whole chapters. It was ridiculous. The characters mostly sat around while GRRM was busy world-building. I don't mind if the books are lengthy, as long as the characters actually do stuff and evolve in each chapter. That's probably why I have faith in HBO, who know more about pacing and using every available minute of airtime to progress the story.

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Theon's chapters in Dance were amazing, some of Martin's best writing of the entire series.  Unfortunately Dany's chapters were the absolute worst.  By the end of the book I wanted to drop a nuke on Meereen and whatever field Dany ended up in.

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I see all of your points re: the actors reading the books. Dinklage however, is SUCH a spot-on Tyrion (and reveling in his new popularity) that I can't imagine he hasn't read all there is to read of the Half-Man. He personifies him exactly as I heard Tyrion speaking in my head when I read the books. Inflection, tone, pacing... everything he does is book Tyrion. I don't think I've heard anyone say they don't like him in the role. He was meant to play him, he's just SO good!

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I don't think the actors are lying about not reading the books. I think each actor uses whatever sources are useful in conceiving their characterizations. As much as I love being spoiled as a reader/viewer, I don't think I'd want to know all the details if I were acting one of the parts. But everyone's different.

From what I understand many and perhaps most of the actors that have have read the books have read only up to the point where the show is.  Some have said that they don't want future events to encroach on their acting choices.  Others have said they wanted to do their own take on the characters (since some are so different from the book characters anyway) so reading ahead in the books isn't useful.

I think Rory McCann (Sandor) has read them all.  

So...battle of Meereen.  Who lives?  Who dies?  

I think Barristan will die eventually but not before he tells Dany her family's history.  I think that's his main plot purpose.

I also think Victarion and Jorah will mortally wound each other fighting over Dany.  One way or another I'm guessing she's going to get her hands on the Iron Fleet.

I hope Barristan tells Dany the truth about her father at the very least. He's been going easy on her and I think that's a mistake. She needs to know there are more sides to the story than the one her crazy brother told her. if she is ever to persuade the numerous factions that she's the best to rule the whole of the Seven Kingdoms. 

That being said, the idea that two men with questionable histories would be fighting over Daenerys like she's a prize cow, would be a disappointment.

I can't stand Victarion, and it's my hope based on Moqorro's circumspect description of Victarion's fate means that the Squid will be killed in a spectular fashion - maybe by dragon fire - along with Euron and the rest of the Ironborn. I'd spare Theon after everything he's been through, but I think his death may have a higher purpose, and Asha is the only one I like enough to live and rule the Iron Isles.

As for Jorah, he's lucky he made himself useful for as long as he did.

Edited by MarySNJ
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This really seems like this could devolve into a Wheel of Time situation, with the story split so many ways that even with books as long as these, everyone's plot only progresses a few inches.

Except in Wheel of Time, they LITERALLY dropped a house on someone, and it wasn't adressed until the book after the next, and BARE MINUTES had elapsed! 

Even though there's a billion viewpoint charactes (and it seems like more and more every book), Song of Fire and Ice generally moves the plot along at a fair pace.

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I only hope that they get the "Victarion is coming to take the dragons" plot over and done with in the span of the next book. I assume in the end that Dany will prevail and that this will be the means by which she grows her army and gets the fleet she's been waiting for. It's time for her to head to Westeros, dammit.

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What I want to see is the White Walkers actually doing something. Supposedly they're the big existential threat so what are they doing? Hanging out for brains & Martinis at the Fist of the First Men? Even if all they're going to do is mass at the Northern side of the Wall (zombie style) it's not surprising everyone is ignoring the threat because they're not doing anything!

 

Have to agree with the "Get Dany to Westeros ASAP!" because I just don't care about Essos. If she kills every Greyjoy she meets first, so much the better.

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I wonder whether Tyrion will be the surprise casualty in the battle of Mereen.

He has been on a downward arc most of ADwD and recovered for the better in his last chapter. That is usually a death mark, the worst seems to have happened to the character, then ... boom.

Like the police officer always dying in his last week before retiring.

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There's some chatter that the spikey snow guy at the end of last night's episode was the Night's King and may be a book 6 spoiler.

 

Tyrion, in the show, said Sansa isn't a killer, "at least not yet."  I can't help but wonder if that is another possible book 6 spoiler.  Martin said that Sansa was going to have a controversial chapter in Winds and some speculate it may be about her killing Robin or Littlefinger. 

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I wonder whether Tyrion will be the surprise casualty in the battle of Mereen.

He has been on a downward arc most of ADwD and recovered for the better in his last chapter. That is usually a death mark, the worst seems to have happened to the character, then ... boom.

 

I think Tyrion will bring grayscale to Kingslanding and then dying of that. I think referring to him as a gargoyle so many times is foreshadowing.

I kinda hope I'm wrong though.

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I think a greyscale plague is coming to King's Landing/Westeros but it's Jon Connington who will be Patient Zero.  Unfortunately I think Shireen will be killed or attempts on her life will be made because she'll be wrongly blamed for it - I'm lookin' at you, Val.  (Even though Shireen is immune, not contagious, and probably the safest person on the continent to be around).

Edited by GreyBunny

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Zombies, dragons, and a plague.  Forgetting Westeros and staying in Essos sounds better and better.

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One of the Unsullied specced that maybe the story ends in Essos, not in Westeros.  Maybe between the zombies, Others, and the plague, everyone hightails it to Mereen and they re-establish the old Valyrian empire there.

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I wonder whether Tyrion will be the surprise casualty in the battle of Mereen.

He has been on a downward arc most of ADwD and recovered for the better in his last chapter. That is usually a death mark, the worst seems to have happened to the character, then ... boom.

Like the police officer always dying in his last week before retiring.

 

I feel like there's only 3 characters I think are locks to make it to the final book (though not all might survive to the end of the story): Tyrion, Dany and Arya

 

Tyrion, because he's GRRM's avatar in the book series, and you get a strong sense it's the character he most identifies with

 

Dany, because who else is going to ride the dragons into battle, if not her?

 

Arya, because Ninjas Rule.

 

My biggest fear is that GRRM might take Tyrion on a trip of corruption/destruction. He was quoted in an article praising the ending of Breaking Bad and hinting that Walter White's journey had inspired some new ideas for where he wants to go in ASOIaF

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I feel like there's only 3 characters I think are locks to make it to the final book (though not all might survive to the end of the story): Tyrion, Dany and Arya

 

Interesting.

 

To me, it sems like Arya is a lock for the "Dead" column by series end. (Martin seems to know who fans really favor, and enjoys pulling the rug out from under them!

I think Jon and/or Danerys are the two potential "Locks" for series end.

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I think Jon and/or Danerys are the two potential "Locks" for series end.

 

Hmm... did you mean to include Jon there?

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My biggest fear is that GRRM might take Tyrion on a trip of corruption/destruction. He was quoted in an article praising the ending of Breaking Bad and hinting that Walter White's journey had inspired some new ideas for where he wants to go in ASOIaF

Oh flip, I hope not, I want the story ending as planned not some BB imitation.

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Interesting.

 

To me, it sems like Arya is a lock for the "Dead" column by series end. (Martin seems to know who fans really favor, and enjoys pulling the rug out from under them!

 

Oh, I'm not saying that all three will SURVIVE the final book. I'm merely guessing that they'll make it through book 6. If I had to pick, I'd say Dany might not survive the final battle - she seems like a candidate for the heroic/noble sacrifice. I think Arya will survive, but only because she'll be so broken and scarred inside that GRRM will find it more cruel to leave her alive.

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I'd long assumed that Arya would be a broken shell by the end, but in her latest chapter, she seems to be doing rather fine.

 

On another note altogether, I was certain while reading the books that a major characters would get raped at some point, and my money was on one of the Stark daughter.  Certainly glad that hasn't happened yet

Edited by Haldebrandt

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Why does everyone expect Arya to crash? Every horrible thing she's been through has only made her stronger. I think she's one of the strongest people in the story.

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I think there's no way Jon and Dany both survive, both dying heroic deaths is more likely. I think a Stark restoration at Winterfell is more likely than a grand Targ restoration. The Starks have been through a lot of shit, but there were plot reasons for Ned and Robb's death, it was never really about them. The younger Starks have all been coming of age and none of them would be in their exact position if they weren't orphans. Arya in particular has about as much plot armor as Tyrion. If there are going to be any more Stark deaths, I'd bet good money it would be Jon, for realsies, since he's the same age as Robb, or Rickon, since I don't why I should have to give a shit about more minor than Tommen when his own family hardly ever thought of him.

 

Didn't one of the Ds say GRRM promised his wife not to kill off her favorite character? We know that would be Arya, so they probably shouldn't have spilled that info, but I don't see why they would make that up or why GRRM would lie about it.

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I didn't go looking for the D or D quote that may or may not exist, but a Google search did find this on w.org:

Parris has proclaimed that Arya cannot die! (No, she wasn't there :( but he mentioned it when someone said that he's not allowed to kill Dany)

from a con report back in '05. Also, so far Starks only die in odd numbered books, so I think they're all pretty safe in Winds.

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So many people are convinced that Jon isn't dead (or at least won't stay dead) despite getting stabby stabbed. Including me. I really hope that GRRM proves us all wrong in Winds of Winter. That would be the most surprising death in the series for me.

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That reminds me of my favourite speculation: Jon Snow is, in fact, Eddard's son. Not because I'm necessarily opposed to the idea of R+L=J, but because everyone's so primed for some HUGE SHOCKING REVEAL over his parentage that having it turn out to be exactly who Eddard said he was would almost qualify as a big surprise. Though who could reveal it is another matter.

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Why does everyone expect Arya to crash? Every horrible thing she's been through has only made her stronger. I think she's one of the strongest people in the story.

Because that strength seems to be tied to a sociopathic detachment that has only gotten worse over time, not better.

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I feel like there's only 3 characters I think are locks to make it to the final book (though not all might survive to the end of the story): Tyrion, Dany and Arya

 

Tyrion, because he's GRRM's avatar in the book series, and you get a strong sense it's the character he most identifies with

 

Dany, because who else is going to ride the dragons into battle, if not her?

 

Arya, because Ninjas Rule.

 

My biggest fear is that GRRM might take Tyrion on a trip of corruption/destruction. He was quoted in an article praising the ending of Breaking Bad and hinting that Walter White's journey had inspired some new ideas for where he wants to go in ASOIaF

 

 

I think Jon Snow is a "lock" to make it to the end of the series - I just don't know in what form.  And since Dany has devolved into every cliched fantasy and epic romance trope, I fully expect her to make it to the end of the series if only to lend her dragons to fighting the White Walkers before deciding she wants nothing to do with the Iron Throne and returns to lead the Dothraki.

 

I am curious as to Sansa's fate .... somehow I think her story-line will intersect with is-he-or-isn't-he Prince Aegon.

 

I don't know about Tyrion - I do know he is Martin's favorite, so he might make it just because of that.

 

As far as who can ride the dragons, I fully expect a Stark kid to become a dragon rider.

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Because that strength seems to be tied to a sociopathic detachment that has only gotten worse over time, not better.

 

By our standards, today's standards. In their world, I'd think anyone would say she's done what she had to do to survive, and gaining even more survival skills as time moves on. The Hound reminded her that she's not invincible, so at least she's not delusional yet, and she was pissed off at the Hound's theft and brutal treatment of that farmer. I think anyone who is forced to live as a warrior develops a hard shell. It was much more difficult for me to accept Arya's life in the books because she was so little still. Notsomuch true with Maisie's portrayal.  

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I think Jon Snow is a "lock" to make it to the end of the series - I just don't know in what form.  And since Dany has devolved into every cliched fantasy and epic romance trope, I fully expect her to make it to the end of the series if only to lend her dragons to fighting the White Walkers before deciding she wants nothing to do with the Iron Throne and returns to lead the Dothraki.

 

 

I will maintain that I believe the original idea was for Jon/Dany to happen in some form, whether it was incestuous or not (and perhaps more likely the former, to give it some tragic element), but that was before GRRM started believing his own press about being "different" and "shocking" and "subverting clichés". So I've no idea how it will end now.

 

Some of the ideas for Jon surviving the attack just make me roll my eyes in weariness, and I hope GRRM has at least one more surprise in that it's as mundane as, 'he got stabbed, and he didn't die. So he recovers'. No warging into Ghost, no rising from the ashes as the embodiment of Melisandre's prophecy.

 

All I do know is that it won't be GRRM who finishes the series. It'll be George 'Stoneheart' Martin, blessed in the light of R'hllor. Hope he's got that bit figured out.

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I will maintain that I believe the original idea was for Jon/Dany to happen in some form, whether it was incestuous or not (and perhaps more likely the former, to give it some tragic element), but that was before GRRM started believing his own press about being "different" and "shocking" and "subverting clichés". So I've no idea how it will end now.

 

Some of the ideas for Jon surviving the attack just make me roll my eyes in weariness, and I hope GRRM has at least one more surprise in that it's as mundane as, 'he got stabbed, and he didn't die. So he recovers'. No warging into Ghost, no rising from the ashes as the embodiment of Melisandre's prophecy.

 

All I do know is that it won't be GRRM who finishes the series. It'll be George 'Stoneheart' Martin, blessed in the light of R'hllor. Hope he's got that bit figured out.

 

 

I really hope end game isn't Jon+Dany as that is entirely too standard fantasy trope for my liking.  I wouldn't mind if they joined forces to save Westeros and Dany goes back to Esteros, Jon stays with the Night's Watch and Rickon rules the world.

 

Somehow I think the actual wall will play a part in Jon not-dying .........Martin did spend a bit of time describing Jon's experiments with the white walkers/others/zombies and the wall.

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I really hope end game isn't Jon+Dany as that is entirely too standard fantasy trope for my liking.  I wouldn't mind if they joined forces to save Westeros and Dany goes back to Esteros, Jon stays with the Night's Watch and Rickon rules the world.

 

Somehow I think the actual wall will play a part in Jon not-dying .........Martin did spend a bit of time describing Jon's experiments with the white walkers/others/zombies and the wall.

 

And that's pretty much the sort of press I was talking about. There's absolutely nothing wrong with standard tropes, in my view, as long as they're done well. Things don't become tropes if they don't work. Trying to be contrary and different is far more likely to backfire, as I think it has done with this series. Unfortunately, GRRM has mangled the characterisation and narrative of this story so much that I can't see any pairing developing over the last two books and having any sort of resonance or power. There's just no time to be devoted to it. I can't even see any actual climax to this series that feels satisfying.

 

If Dany hadn't wasted five books in Essos, then maybe she'd actually feel like a relevant character to me. As it is, she seems to be little more than a plot device to eventually get to dragons vs Others. And I don't see any way for it to turn out that won't be disappointing to me.

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Danny Franks If Dany hadn't wasted five books in Essos, then maybe she'd actually feel like a relevant character to me.

 

I certainly empathise with that view, though what really pissed me off was the way Aegon (fake or not) showed up and began conquering Westeros once he'd got hold of the mercenaries (Brave Companions?). Danny had her dragons, the Unsullied and still hasn't invaded. OK, I get GRRM is trying to avert the easy logistics that most fantasy novels adopt, but if anything she's gone backwards in the last book. Her conquest (if she does invade soon, which I believe she will) is going to have to be lightning fast if she's going to conquer Westeros and turn back the White Walkers.

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I certainly empathise with that view, though what really pissed me off was the way Aegon (fake or not) showed up and began conquering Westeros once he'd got hold of the mercenaries (Brave Companions?). Danny had her dragons, the Unsullied and still hasn't invaded. OK, I get GRRM is trying to avert the easy logistics that most fantasy novels adopt, but if anything she's gone backwards in the last book. Her conquest (if she does invade soon, which I believe she will) is going to have to be lightning fast if she's going to conquer Westeros and turn back the White Walkers.

 

 

That makes it even more annoying. Because Aegon genuinely just appears out of nowhere, and is suddenly a hugely important character who is proactive and decisive and pushes the plot forward. Honestly, I think it's terrible writing, even though Aegon is surely going to be be revealed as a fake. But he's doing what Dany should be doing, in the eyes of this reader. So that makes him annoying and her even more intolerable.

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That's the one thing about him that I actually like, that he got off his bum and went and did something to advance the plot.  Other than that he's an annoying punk who is in over his head.  

That said, I do like that a fake might be able to take the Iron Throne swiftly and perhaps keep it for a time while a real Targaryen languishes in Essos.  It makes the story more unpredictable and in some ways more realistic since fakes and frauds have succeeded in ascending thrones in the real world and legitimate claimants are shut out.  Just because someone may have a legitimate birthright it doesn't make them magically able to do what they want to do or have what they want fall into their laps.  Dany has to work to get the throne just like Robert or anyone else who wanted to take it and, even with dragons, she may not get it.

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This just in... Martin's editor expects to receive the manuscript for WoW "reasonably soon"!

 

Whatever "reasonably soon" means, of course, is open to interpretation.

 

She recently answered fan questions about WoW and more here.

 

Edited because she said "reasonably," not "relatively," which actually makes me more hopeful.

Edited by Brn2bwild
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Too much to hope we might actually get TWoW before too long? Really good thing about GoT, it's made the wait for the books feel a lot shorter. It's been three years since ADWD was published. And I know GRRM gets killed about his writing times, but the fact is the guy delivered three thousand-page books in about four years. Granted,  I don't know how much of them were already finished beforehand. And now that he's clear of the Meereenese knot and having to rewrite the five year time skip, I wouldn't be surprised if the words are flowing easier for him. 

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It sounds like once the novels are ready, the editing process is really fast.  She mentioned something like two weeks, if even that.  So Martin could conceivably be done with WoW at the end of 2014 or early 2015 and it could be ready for release after Season Five airs.

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It sounds like once the novels are ready, the editing process is really fast.  She mentioned something like two weeks, if even that.  So Martin could conceivably be done with WoW at the end of 2014 or early 2015 and it could be ready for release after Season Five airs.

Then she later said that as she now has the GoT app to keep characters and facts straight she thinks she could reduce that to a week or so. Even better news :)

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