S01.E08: The Lyon's Roar

[40Love]

I am glad Jamal came out but I didn't find that moment endearing at all.  When it happened I felt myself recoiling in something akin to disgust.  Cookie planned a press conference for him to come out and Jamal bailed.  At an interview, with his significant other watching, Jamal straight up lied.  He didn't say, "I don't have a girl", He said "I don't have anyone special."   I found it interesting that at the moment Lucius was the most open and accepting of Jamal as he has ever been - he showed love and pride and happiness to both be working with his son and showcasing his son - Jamal decided to come out and in a big way.  He picked a moment at his father's party, honoring his father and with all of his father's business partners and employees, a day after Hakeem wisely advised him to be careful at how he acts now because he will regret things when his father is dead, funded and fueled by his father's money, singing the song his father wrote for his mother to come out in the performance.  It was the ultimate F you.  It was unbelievably cruel.  See here's the thing, one's actions are not judged by whether or not somebody else deserves them or not. We don't get to go around killing or assaulting people who deserve it because if we did it would make us wrong in our own accord.  Lucius is a bastard, no doubt, and yes he deserves the pain he has instigated to bring on himself.  But what Jamal did was all kinds of shady and all I could really think, whilst dancing and bopping to that amazing song and Jussie's performance of it, was that he is JUST like Lucius.  Every ounce as ruthless and self centered and selfish.  I even noted that in the way he bristled at Cookie wanting to switch the song for Hakeem.  That placement wouldn't make or break his career but it was clearly something that was representing Hakeem and Cookie finding a springboard for reconciliation.  He could have done it for them.  Jamal gets a lot of passes because he is a more likeable person and he gets the sympathy vote as the gay bashed victim.  But I am definitely viewing him from the side of my face right now.

Yep. Jamal (my favorite character BTW) is not perfect. He's flawed. For all the reasons you listed above, he probably should have picked a different way to come out. 

 

But, the fact that he chose a party honoring his father right after the heartfelt words from Lucious is what makes Empire so deliciously "Dynasty/Dallas" - like. His decision set up a whole new line of drama... created fallout and set-up future storylines. Jamal being the likeable character he is drives up the stakes even more.

 

Without the high-energy dramatic coming out scene we would have never gotten Lucious's "funeral march" into HQ the next day, his harsh hateful words to Andre and his decision to drop Jamal's LP. 

 

Instead we would have a happy-go-lucky-let's-all-sing-together-in-the-studio Lyon clan.. and what's the fun in that? LOL!

Edited February 26, 2015 by 40Love

[Malbec]

I don't buy Rhonda's pity party. She was all for selling herself when she thought it would be someone sexy. She only had a problem with it when the guy was disabled. She most certainly has the right to choose her sexual partners, but to make Andre feel bad for something that was 100% on board with is a terrible thing to do. All she had to do was say "This wasn't what I thought it was. Don't ever set me up with someone like that again." 

 

I actually thought Rhonda was reluctant about the "sleep with a board member" plan from the very beginning, even when it was the attractive woman she might be sleeping with.  Maybe the green face mask was obscuring my read on the actress' face, but I got the feeling that even when it was someone "sexy" Rhonda didn't totally want to do it and needed to be cajoled by Andre.  When it turned out to be the creepy old dude, she lost even the tiniest bit of willingness.  I think Andre can be forgiven for failing to pick up on her reluctance, but I can also understand why Rhonda was pissed off that he didn't.  

[Luciano]

I actually thought Rhonda was reluctant about the "sleep with a board member" plan from the very beginning, even when it was the attractive woman she might be sleeping with. Maybe the green face mask was obscuring my read on the actress' face, but I got the feeling that even when it was someone "sexy" Rhonda didn't totally want to do it and needed to be cajoled by Andre. When it turned out to be the creepy old dude, she lost even the tiniest bit of willingness. I think Andre can be forgiven for failing to pick up on her reluctance, but I can also understand why Rhonda was pissed off that he didn't.

I think she made a face when her back was towards Andre but she rearranged it to something more agreeable before she turned to talk to him.

[Timetoread]

Yep. Jamal (my favorite character BTW) is not perfect. He's flawed. For all the reasons you listed above, he probably should have picked a different way to come out. 

 

But, the fact that he chose a party honoring his father right after the heartfelt words from Lucious is what makes Empire so deliciously "Dynasty/Dallas" - like. His decision set up a whole new line of drama... created fallout and set-up future storylines. Jamal being the likeable character he is drives up the stakes even more.

 

Without the high-energy dramatic coming out scene we would have never gotten Lucious's "funeral march" into HQ the next day, his harsh hateful words to Andre and his decision to drop Jamal's LP. 

 

Instead we would have a happy-go-lucky-let's-all-sing-together-in-the-studio Lyon clan.. and what's the fun in that? LOL!

 

Oh I definitely agree!  Cookie is my favorite, followed by TH's portrayal of Lucius (not Lew himself), followed by Jamal.  I think we're going to find in the end that they are ALL flawed in varying degrees and will have straight up "you know you're wrong" moments, but that is what makes this great.  I was honestly rolling my eyes at the initial portrayal of Jamal as this poor wittle wamb with the Big Bad Wolf for a father.  But when Jamal dropped Hakeem I was like "Backup!  This lamb got some teeth!"  Now with this stunt (while everybody else was rejoicing) I just grinned and realized that when wolves make babies, their babies grow up to be wolves themselves.  I LIKE Jamal a bit ambiguous with some jags on his edge.

[Jade Foxx]

If nothing else I hope at some level that this show helps to humanize the concept that, yes, a woman like Cookie who sold drugs, and went to jail, can still be a fully realized, flawed, and yet, deeply human being as well. That young black men can be named Hakeem, Jamal and Andre, and their lives still actual matter as well.

 

We've known this forever. It's about time the world learns it.

 

This statement is so real and poignant, it got me a little weepy at work.

 

Thank you for this.

[kpw801]

I almost feel bad for Annika. She's caught on to the fact that Lucious only proposed to her to get her father to lie for him. What I can't figure out is why she didn't tell him to fuck off. I understand that she's spiteful and vengeful, but she could be all of that and still leave Lucious. A few episodes ago, someone on here mentioned that it seemed like Lucious was a prize for Annika. After this episode, it seems that way to me too.

I think Annika is now holding on to Lucious out of pride and spite.  She really thought that because Cookie is older and not as cultured or educated that she had the Princess factor in play.  She could absolutely not believe that this older woman, who has born three children, endured 17 years in prison with a loud in your face attitude, etc., could lure the father of her children back into her arms.  Annika seems to me like she would rather die than admit she lost her man to Cookie the ex-con.  It was so funny when Lu asked Tiana what she expected Cookie to do for her, Annika sneered dirisively until Tiana reminded both of them that Cookie was the one who made Lu a star back in the day.

I feel for everyone on this show, except for Lucious who is a complete asshole.

Yeah.  Lu is an a**hole.

[Gigi43]

Rhonda didn't seem into it from the beginning, to me either. She also has questioned Andre pitting his brothers against each other (can't remember which episode, that's the problem with binge watching) but she supported him like she was going to support him here, and without that much effort on Andre's part, granted, but it became too much for her. I can see someone like Rhonda associating sleeping with an older man something a "lowly" girl would do for money, like a sugar daddy/whore, whatever, and while she may be into manipulating and using sex to do so, she won't bring herself to do certain things like whore in the way she viewed that as. Rhonda puking cracked me up.

I wonder if there was a point to bringing up Stephen Hawking/Theory Of Everything (good movie btw, I happened to watch on Sunday.) Are they already looking for an excuse to keep Luscious alive ? I know this episode was made probably before they knew the show would be a success but if they weren't already planning something I imagine they are now if they plan on keeping him around the whole series even though they've put a time limit on him. But I do wish he dies sooner rather than later.

I love characters that you hate that you love. Luscious is not that type, he's just hateful... everything about him. Jamal can't date men, Andre is horrible for bringing home the "white girl", which by the way, is Annika half white? So she just makes the cut. I'm down with how unpolitically correct this show can be. I'm white, and I was born with a disability, Rhonda's "short bus" comment didn't make me change my opinion of her at all, and I actually appreciate the realism that there are people who would say exactly that and think they're still being sensitive. For all Luscious goes on about being "a man" he's probably the one with the smallest balls on the show, and I'm counting the women.

I don't think Annika is rushing to marry Luscious because she thinks that will keep him for herself. She wants to be Mrs. Lyons and whatever she'll get out of that, via if he dies or even a divorce; especially if it's a quicky wedding without an ironclad prenup. Even if there is already a renup in place, she'll still benefit I'm sure. She doesn't want to be dumped and get nothing out of that. At least I hope that's her motive, it's bad enough Cookie actually wants Luscious being how horrible Luscious is, I can't accept they both really truly want HIM.

This episode was very good to Hakeem. I didn't hate him from the start and it continued through. I love that he didn't just cheer Jamal on, he actually went to see him. Another thing I liked was his use of "Cookie" when she stormed over to him and Camilla and then calling her "mom", when she was actually acting like a protective mother talking about her son. Hakeem seems to be very in the moment, he just reacts, I don't think he's cut out for long term grudges as much as he may want Cookie to think so at times.

It was obvious to me Jamal would come out as he was heading to perform that song. But it was a good moment anyway... and I actually really liked what we heard of the song. I loved Vernon's face. I don't get the point of the daughter though. With Olivia not around there's no drama with her, and that one scene with the kid did not really add to take away from Jamal's character. Out of the guys (I'm including his father) Jamal is the best suited to be a father. Hakeem is immature and likes the fame life, Andre... welll... Jamal doesn't need a kid to make him grow or whatever the TV trope is with kid stories, so there's kind of no point to this so far to me

Edited February 26, 2015 by Gigi43

[jsbt]

I may be the only one but I don't think Jamal did what he did at the party to attack Lucious. I don't think Jamal had a petty motive. He definitely has some of the same darkness and pride as Lucious, as I've said before, but I think he meant everything he said to Hakeem about closing the ranks and doing right by his father in his time of need and with his illness on the rise. I think he was inspired by both Ryan and his father's words at the party, and took that moment as it happened, somewhat spontaneously. It was a defiant and emotional performance, but despite his body language I don't think he was all, "in yo face, Dad!" I think he was putting himself out there to the world and they could take it or leave it. Lucious had told him to speak his truth and Jamal followed his father's advice, but he didn't realize that despite his big talk, Lucious wasn't ready or willing to receive it. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by jsbt

[Timetoread]

I can see someone like Rhonda associating sleeping with an older man something a "lowly" girl would do for money, like a sugar daddy/whore, whatever, and while she may be into manipulating and using sex to do so, she won't bring herself to do certain things like whore in the way she viewed that as. Rhonda puking cracked me up.

 

For me it wasn't about what turned her off about the man - he could be too short, or fat, or something else. Her not liking him doesn't have to be an age thing.  Maybe it's a disability thing - that crack about short bus. The point is that we all have the right to choose our sexual partners and Andre expecting her to just sleep with ANYBODY to further his goals is the problem. 

 

I may be the only one but I don't think Jamal did what he did at the party to attack Lucious. I don't think Jamal had a petty motive. He definitely has some of the same darkness and pride as Lucious, as I've said before, but I think he meant everything he said to Hakeem about closing the ranks and doing right by his father in his time of need and with his illness on the rise. I think he was inspired by both Ryan and his father's words at the party, and took that moment as it happened, somewhat spontaneously. It was a defiant and emotional performance, but despite his body language I don't think he was all, "in yo face, Dad!" I think he was putting himself out there to the world and they could take it or leave it. Lucious had told him to speak his truth and Jamal followed his father's advice, but he didn't realize that despite his big talk, Lucious wasn't ready or willing to receive it. 

 

I just rewatched this and I did truly love the reaction of the family and the crowd.  Truth is that homophobia isn't such a huge thing in the black community so much as hip hop/rap.  I can't think of one single black person I've ever met who don't have - and even speak lovingly of -  someone in their family who is gay.  Being gay is kind of a non-issue.  HOWEVER there is a HUGE stereotyping of gays as effeminate, weak, and the antithesis of macho.  That gay family member is fully expected to have a nicely decorated home, a lisp and a sashay but not be a decorated athlete, or soldier, or a gangster (which is the image hip hop most often borrows).  The point is that from day one I have noted that if Jamal simply identifies as gay from the beginning people will just shrug and keep on dancing to whatever good stuff comes out of him.  What WOULD cause a problem is if he lied about it, got himself a beard, acted all macho and THEN it comes out that he is gay.  People accept your truth but they will BURY you with your lie.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Timetoread

[SimoneS]

Rhonda did not seem into sleeping with the guy or his wife when Andre first brought it up to me. However, clearly she was willing to go through with it until she saw how old and disabled the guy was. I respect her for drawing a firm line with Andre in the car. She is  willing to do a lot of things for him, but she has limits. I dread Lucious finding out that Andre is bipolar. He will consider it a weakness and reject Andre even more harshly. On the other hand, this will drive Andre into his mother's arms sealing his alliance with his mother and brothers.

 

 

I wonder if there was a point to bringing up Stephen Hawking/Theory Of Everything (good movie btw, I happened to watch on Sunday.) Are they already looking for an excuse to keep Luscious alive ? I know this episode was made probably before they knew the show would be a success but if they weren't already planning something I imagine they are now if they plan on keeping him around the whole series even though they've put a time limit on him. But I do wish he dies sooner rather than later.

 

I had the same thought. It felt like the show was giving itself an out so that it can keep Lucious alive indefinitely. I don't have a problem with that. I would love for him to live long enough to see Cookie and his sons blossom outside of his control. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by SimoneS

[Jade Foxx]

 

 It was a defiant and emotional performance

 

Especially when intersected with the montage of the man Jamal has become (in that moment, on stage) vs. the vulnerable young boy Lou snatched up then discarded in a trash can.

 

It was a real "I Will Survive" and "In Yo Face" mash-up!

Edited February 26, 2015 by Jade Foxx

[40Love]

Out of the guys (I'm including his father) Jamal is the best suited to be a father. Hakeem is immature and likes the fame life, Andre... welll... Jamal doesn't need a kid to make him grow or whatever the TV trope is with kid stories, so there's kind of no point to this so far

 

IMHO, I think the point will be an eventual emotional custody battle.. money grab or revelation that the little Lyoness is not actually Jamal's daughter. I can't imagine the show hired Raven-Symone for a 5-minute cameo. Olivia's brief appearance seemed to point to her being a manipulative schemer. She'll be back and up to no good. 

 

She's a back-up singer IIRC, so I could totally see her trying to get not only money out of this.. but, perhaps some kind of musical career as well. 

[rudystx01]

Could Lucious' reaction to Andre's choice in wife be due to his interaction with Annika's father? Her father  was not interested or excited in having him as a son in law, but was more than willing to take his money.

[Vixenstud]

I liked Lucious with Cookie, Jamal and Hakeem in the recording booth, though Andre should have been in there too.  UO, but I was loving the Lucious and Cookie 'nookie' scenes.  They remind me of when Sue Ellen tried to cut off J.R. on Dallas but in the end knew she loved the sonofabitch too much.  I would love to see them as endgame.

 

Never had any children (Oops!  Spookyjuice, my cat just gave me serious side eye; shorry boo!), but if I had a daughter I'd want her to resemble Jamal's cute little nugget....I've never been much of a fan of The Lion Sleeps Tonight (always thought the lyric was a-wingowest, a-wingowest, etc.), but his beautiful a capella version to her left me teary eyed.

 

Was I the only one thinking of the nasty lyrics of Lil' Kim's 'How Many Licks' when Cookie mentioned Camillia's tongue? 

 

Hakeem was so cute this eppy, I hope he and Cookie grow closer.  Andre had me gasping too with the gun in the recording booth.  Looks like he throws his bi-polar meds in the toilet next week.

[SimoneS]

I think he was putting himself out there to the world and they could take it or leave it. Lucious had told him to speak his truth and Jamal followed his father's advice, but he didn't realize that despite his big talk, Lucious wasn't ready or willing to receive it. 

 

I think Jamal knew that Lucious would be outraged at him coming out, but Jamal was ready to tell his truth so he seized the day. Jamal must have been thinking about it since he had prepared the arrangement. I was rewatching his coming out (the video clip is on FOX and YouTube). It was such a celebratory and joyous moment for Jamal. Other than Lucious, there was so much love and support from his family. All this said, I still think that Jamal will end up being as brutal and ruthless as his father in a couple years. He will be the one to shove Lucious out of Empire. He is the son most like Lucious and he has no illusions about his father.  

Edited February 26, 2015 by SimoneS

[kpw801]

I think Jamal knew that Lucious would be outraged at him coming out, but Jamal was ready to tell his truth so he seized the day. Jamal must have been thinking about it since he had prepared the arrangement. I was rewatching his coming out (the video clip is on FOX and YouTube). It was such a celebratory and joyous moment for Jamal. Other than Lucious, there was so much love and support from his family. All this said, I still think that Jamal will end up being as brutal and ruthless as his father in a couple years. He will be the one to shove Lucious out of Empire. He is the son most like Lucious and he has no illusions about his father.  

I think so too.  Jamal was only holding back in coming out because he depended on his father financially.  Once he turned his back on that he was in a better position to throw caution to the wind.  I don't think he would have come out without the urging of his new friend.  

IMHO, I think the point will be an eventual emotional custody battle.. money grab or revelation that the little Lyoness is not actually Jamal's daughter. I can't imagine the show hired Raven-Symone for a 5-minute cameo. Olivia's brief appearance seemed to point to her being a manipulative schemer. She'll be back and up to no good. 

 

She's a back-up singer IIRC, so I could totally see her trying to get not only money out of this.. but, perhaps some kind of musical career as well. 

Anybody note how funny it is that her character in this show is named Olivia and that was her name on the Cosby show too?

[LydiaMoon1]

You're So Beautiful is the first Jamal song to really stick to me, but this one is infectious.  LOVE Hakeem's rap lyrics in it as well. 

 

I can play this one on loop.

[mtlchick]

Finally watching it.  There was a moment where Anika had confronted Lucious about her dad and there was no music, just silence.  Then she brought up the music and the music kicked in.  To me, it almost sounded like it was Lucious' heartbeat ticking.  Being confronted about her dad means nothing to him but Cookie?  Hell yeah he's going to sweat.  

 

And to me...that is good TV.  

 

Also, I may need to download "You're So Beautiful."  And I want an invite to next year's white party.  Finally, my weekly bow down to Cookie Lyon. 

[Artsda]

I loved the scene of Jamal and Hakeem at the end, but thought it's a bit silly that Jamal's still living where he is in this bad neighborhood while he's all over radio, driving his Empire car and is all over the news with his coming out.

 

That place would have been swarming with paparazzi out the front door. 

[fivestone]

Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but I saw the smiles of Andre, Rhonda, and Vernon during Jamal's coming-out song as more of a "Yes! Jamal's pissing off Lucious - one brother down, one brother to go!" They figured that Jamal coming out in such a public fashion - with Lucious' song, no less - would insure that Jamal would go to the bottom of the future CEO list. Well, so much for that idea!

[Lila82]

This episode was so confusing for me: Luscious was supposed to be some kind of 90s-era gangsta rapper with tons of street cred, yet "You're So Beautiful" is like the ultimate pop/R&B radio hit.  Exactly what kind of artist was he supposed to be?  Still, great song!  Luscious hates Andre for being educated and upper class, yet openly pursued debutante Anika.  He criticizes Andre for marrying a white woman, but his fiancee is biracial.  He seemed authentic in those scenes, but the story doesn't stick.  

 

I really like that Jamal has the daughter rather than serial dater Hakeem. That was a good twist on a tired trope.  Also? DIEGO!  I miss Eka Darville on "The Originals," but it was nice seeing him in an interesting role and sporting his natural accent.  

 

ETA:
 

I usually want to reach through the tv and hug Hakeem, but oh my god, Andre!  His parents are so awful to him. Cookie's nicer, but has made minimal time for him and hasn't much tried to pursue a relationship.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Lila82

[Artsda]

Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but I saw the smiles of Andre, Rhonda, and Vernon during Jamal's coming-out song as more of a "Yes! Jamal's pissing off Lucious - one brother down, one brother to go!" They figured that Jamal coming out in such a public fashion - with Lucious' song, no less - would insure that Jamal would go to the bottom of the future CEO list. Well, so much for that idea!

I didn't see it like that at all, it looked like loved ones and family proud of him. Hakeem even said it at the end. Cookie, Hakeem, Vernon, Rhonda and Andre were all supportive and proud of what he just did.

[Luciano]

Plus, Vernon looked like he was going to cry happy tears.

[jsbt]

Plus, Vernon looked like he was going to cry happy tears.

 

His reaction - all of theirs, but especially his and, surprisingly, Rhonda and Andre's - was pretty touching. Even Naomi Campbell was applauding on her thigh!

[ridethemaverick]

Could Lucious' reaction to Andre's choice in wife be due to his interaction with Annika's father? Her father was not interested or excited in having him as a son in law, but was more than willing to take his money.

I don't think that was it.

I wasn't at all surprised or confused by Luscious' reaction. In fact, I figured it would come up sooner or later.

Like many cultures, there are a lot of African Americans who prefer for their children to marry intraculturally/racially. Beyond that though,the long and complicated history between blacks and whites in this country makes some of us feel that your choice in spouse says something about your worldview. For Luscious, I would imagine Andre's choice represents someone who doesn't mind handing over some of his family's hard-earned wealth and power to a non-black person rather than "keeping it in the family." It makes him question Andre's loyalty and motives AND it makes him wonder if, like someone said up thread, Andre is "that guy" who will do anything for white acceptance.

Just my take. I was watching with a lot of people and nobody was surprised. It was more like "wow, they went there" or "dang, he said it."

[Happytobehere]

I can't believe that this is happening twice in one week, earlier with The Walking Dead, that I am going to sit here in the cold by myself holding the opinion that goes against the masses but here goes.  I am glad Jamal came out but I didn't find that moment endearing at all.  When it happened I felt myself recoiling in something akin to disgust.  Cookie planned a press conference for him to come out and Jamal bailed.  At an interview, with his significant other watching, Jamal straight up lied.  He didn't say, "I don't have a girl", He said "I don't have anyone special."   I found it interesting that at the moment Lucius was the most open and accepting of Jamal as he has ever been - he showed love and pride and happiness to both be working with his son and showcasing his son - Jamal decided to come out and in a big way.  He picked a moment at his father's party, honoring his father and with all of his father's business partners and employees, a day after Hakeem wisely advised him to be careful at how he acts now because he will regret things when his father is dead, funded and feuled by his father's money, singing the song his father wrote for his mother to come out in the performance.  It was the ultimate F you.  It was unbelievably cruel.  See here's the thing, one's actions are not judged by whether or not somebody else deserves them or not. We don't get to go around killing or assaulting people who deserve it because if we did it would make us wrong in our own accord.  Lucius is a bastard, no doubt, and yes he deserves the pain he has instigated to bring on himself.  But what Jamal did was all kinds of shady and all I could really think, whilst dancing and bopping to that amazing song and Jussie's performance of it, was that he is JUST like Lucius.  Every ounce as ruthless and self centered and selfish.  I even noted that in the way he bristled at Cookie wanting to switch the song for Hakeem.  That placement wouldn't make or break his career but it was clearly something that was representing Hakeem and Cookie finding a springboard for reconciliation.  He could have done it for them.  Jamal gets a lot of passes because he is a more likeable person and he gets the sympathy vote as the gay bashed victim.  But I am definitey viewing him from the side of my face right now.

As for Lucius' other flawed son. I don't quite know how to feel about Andre.  Lucius' King Lear turn was not the first of Andre's distancing from family.  Other than being glad that Jamal wasn't actually shot dead, Andre has show NO loyalty, love or protection toward his little brothers.  His very first lines in the series showed a scheming, hateful brother.  His interest in Empire is HIS interest (as in money) in Empire.  He has no passion for the music or the people -even the ones who are family -, or the industry.  He just wants to be the boss.  Period.  I feel that Lucius has sensed this for a long time and I think that board meeting came across to Lucius as witnessing his son ready to carve up his corpse for the reward.  He saw a son who simply can't even wait for him to die.  Andre may be bipolar, but he is also a cold manipulator.  Another son in Lucius' own image.  And I don't think Lucius doesn't like Ronda because she is white per se but because she represents a black man who eschews his own race thinking that it makes him better. Lucius at his heart is that kid who came from the ghetto and made himself a king amongst armies of the "the man" who would see him destroyed.  Andre, to Lucius, represents "the man".  He fears that with Andre at the helm things would go the way of Peretti.  Andre's breakdown however was heart shattering and I screamed when he pulled out that gun.  I began to wonder if there will be a twist that out of ALL three boys, Andre actually is the MOST talented.  I understand that Trai can sing.  Maybe Lucius is right that he straight turned his back on art because he looks down on it, but not because he doesn't possess it.

While I'm pissing people off, I am going to say that I don't understand what seems to be a one-sided view against Ronda.  So because they have a supposed open marriage (which right now I'm not so sure was openness as opposed to her going along to appease/keep her husband), she is now deserving of any and all mistreatment and has no right to object to the use of her own body?  She can't say no because she once said yes?  I can't get with that.  Andre is a scumbag for even asking his wife (regardless of their level of kink) to sleep with somebody solely to get a vote in the boardroom.  That is indeed prostitution.

Finally, it seems that dark horse Hakeem may turn out to be the most grounded, kindest, and smartest of the boys in the end.  He's spoiled and pampered but when it counts, he delivers in spades.

I LOVE this post!

I too have always been struck by the parents' adamant assertion that Jamal is just like Luscious, so says Cookie and Hakeem is like Cookie, so says Luscious, and what that character assertion says about the way things will ultimately turn out.

While I have sympathy for the fact that Andre is clearly a troubled individual in a world of pain, much like his father, I see very little about him that is worthy of liking. I am often amazed at the numbe of people who say Cookie takes no interest in him while conveniently ignoring that Andre had the most time with his mother, willingly and continuously turns his back on her and only seeks his mother out when he can use her. Despite this, Cookie is the only person who I have heard say anything positive about Andre without having anything to gain by it, unlike Rhonda or Vernon. So this notion that Cookie is the bad guy in her dealings with Andre makes little sense to me. IMHO, Andre is a royal bastard and aside from what was mentioned above, I find him the least likable of the sons. He is second only to Luscious in how vile a human being he is.

[lonestar]

Lucious doesn't want Andre being the heir because he married a white woman?  Lucious is engages to a half white woman, is it so different?

[ridethemaverick]

Lucious doesn't want Andre being the heir because he married a white woman? Lucious is engages to a half white woman, is it so different?

Yes, it kind of is.

But as I said, that's just my take. It could be that Luscious just doesn't trust white people and doesn't want them in his family (Anika's dad would be an in-law but not part of the inner circle).

[Gigi43]

Anika is the reason I give a side eye to Luscious' view of Andre marrying a white woman. Of course there are still people in 2015 who want their kids to stay with the same race and/or religion. But how strongly Luscious is about it doesn't add up when his wife is half white (and like Rhonda educated, ect.) Anika is on the lighter side of skin tone, someone like Halle Berry or Derek Jeter could be assumed to be all black by someone unaware of their background; Anika not so much and Luscious supposedly heavily is about image. Imo this halfway racial view is a lazy way to just make Luscious say whatever nasty thing they want in a episode in a moment regardless of the past/other current actions.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Gigi43

[Artsda]

Lucious doesn't want Andre being the heir because he married a white woman?  Lucious is engages to a half white woman, is it so different?

It's different, Anika's not getting anything. Lucious also has his own ulterior motives for even proposing to Anika.

Lucious is the one with the "Empire" that he's passing down to his sons, he's not giving anything to Anika. He wants to pass it to his own. He sees Andre "bringing a white woman" into his house as a betrayal against him and the family. That he's not going to give what he and Cookie built to Rhonda. If Andre was single, it would be different.

[memememe76]

Why wouldn't Luscious give anything of "Empire" to Anika (assuming they end up married)? As his spouse, wouldn't she be entitled to a part of his estate?

 

While I do think it's "different" (for Lucious), we don't really know Rhonda's background. Does she have the same "débutante" background as Anika? She's a photographer, right? No offence to photographers, but I don't associate that profession with "Ivy League" or "establishment". 

 

Jamal also dated outside his race--sexuality aside, would that have been a problem? 

 

I don't have any problems with the way Jamal "came out." Jamal was asked to perform the song. If he performed the song the way Lucious would've liked, it would've been harder for Jamal to later perform the song he would've preferred. Changing lyrics later on would've been seen as "cheesey." 

Edited February 27, 2015 by memememe76

[loveigniting]

Regarding Anika being mixed, I just figured Luscious has rules for others that they can't break and that he can when it suits his purposes. It's narcissist behavior and I have a parent like that so...yeah Luscious is just the worst. At the same time, what he said to Andre wasn't invalidated by him being engaged to Anika for all the reasons people have already been saying. So YMMV.

 

This episode was just really good. I really began to care for Hakeem in this episode.  His interactions with Cookie, his support of Jamal, even his praying for his father. The kid's got a big heart and I finally see the Cookie in him. And, the Andre scenes fucked me up. I've liked him since I realized he was the unfavorite because that's a character kink of mine. I do have sympathy for Andre because I realized that he's probably modelled himself after Luscious in some ways - I wondered why Andre never went to see Cookie in prison when the show first started but as we've got to see his and Luscious' characters over the course of the show, it made sense to me.

 

So, I do empathize with Andre a lot, what with him being bipolar and having the influence of a toxic personality like Luscious being the parent figure he looked up to. Andre's dependence and need for his father's approval/trust (?) is gonna lead to problems. He's not musically inclined and the identity he's constructed which includes the partner he's chosen has made Luscious reject him silently and treat him more like an employee rather than a son. Hakeem's never had to worry about either. And, Jamal probably knew from a young age, by his father's disapproval of him, that he was never gonna get the things he needed from Luscious so he's not going to beg for scraps.

 

I loved Jamal's coming out - I especially loved the juxtaposition of the scared crying boy being rejected violently by his father versus the strong adult who stood in front of a crowd, including his father, and used Luscious' words to tell his own truth. 'Twas a beautiful thing.

 

As always, I loved Cookie. At this point, I care about everyone but Luscious. His being playing by Terrence Howard just makes it easier for me to hate him tbh. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by loveigniting

[dirtypop90]

Why wouldn't Luscious give anything of "Empire" to Anika (assuming they end up married)? As his spouse, wouldn't she be entitled to a part of his estate?

 

I agree Anika's white dad would be an in-law just like rhonda is an in-law. Anika, as his gf, is reaping the rewards of his hard work. You think she doesn't slide anything to her parents or wouldn't if need be?

 

It just doesn't work for me.

 

And if you're using the excuse that Anika is half black, so black. Then andre and rhonda's kids would also be black and that's who andre would be passing empire down to.

Edited February 27, 2015 by dirtypop90

[scarletregina]

I actually thought Rhonda was reluctant about the "sleep with a board member" plan from the very beginning, even when it was the attractive woman she might be sleeping with.  

 

I'll have to do a rewatch. Now you have me wondering if she plays into Andre's sex games because she thinks they are a part of his bipolar disorder and therefore one of the things she has to do if she wants to be with him. 

[teezy]

Sometimes I get sick of Cookie, but I think it's because she doesn't say the right words, she doesn't have the language to say what she means in a nicer way; she goes for the jugular and to me, that wears thin.

 

I think at the end, when Cookie looked at the photograph and remembered being in prison and singing "You're so beautiful" to herself, alone in prison was when you saw the REAL Cookie, the woman who is doing all of this, not for herself, but for her children.  That's why she can't stand Anika, not because she's lighter skinned, or a former debutante, but because Cookie sees Anika as stealing "her" life.  I had a friend whose husband divorced her and married a younger woman; the younger woman had been a friend of hers, and now she realizes that this woman wanted her life and that's why she wanted her husband.  It's not that Cookie feels entitled, she just wants to make sure that this company is there for her children.

 

 

But are you saying that Andre marrying a white woman was a way for him to "feel safe?"  The truth is that there are more black women in college and graduate school than black men; so I SMH when they show an Ivy League educated black man married to a white woman, as if black women don't exist in Ivy League schools.

lol all the college educated black women i know be complaiing about there barely being any brothers on campus  at some schools there are like 10 blacks for every 1 black guy

 

so yea i think thats funny.  Even at alot of the hbcu's the male to female ratio is ridcculously skewed  some of these schools have a 70% female popualtion so you can't tell me a black man has a hard time finding a sister in college because there are plenty of them.

[teezy]

This is what I got with Cookie in the pilot when she asked him why he married that white girl. I thought she really wanted to know if Andre was that guy or if he just happened to fall in love with a white woman. Despite Andre saying he wasn't accepted by the Lyons because he lacked musical talent, Andre also told us that he is that guy. Except he's working for a black company which is kinda confusing. 

Also his wife keeps trying to get him to destroy his family

 

which is crazy to me . Luscious is not dumb  he sees right through Andre  luscious empire owuld be all white  in less than 2 generations if it got in Andre hands. His wife rhonda is desperate for that money

[MsDiva2007]

I feel no sorrow for Andre & Rhonda. Your man pimps you out because you allow him to. Andre is an elitist prick and as nasty as his father is I wouldn't want Andre's weak behind running my company!

Loved Jamal coming out and the white party was great! I go to one in Palm Springs every year good times!

BooBoo Kitty aka Fake Halle Berry aka Fake Lena Horne may have book smarts but she is dumb as a box of of rocks!

Am I the only one waiting for Camille(Naiomi) to toss a cellphone at Cookie like she does at people who piss her off? lol

[Rae Spellman]

 

Jamal also dated outside his race--sexuality aside, would that have been a problem?

 

Maybe. For some folks there's a difference between "not black" and white. Plus, Rhonda being white is likely only part of it.

 

Lucious referred to Rhonda as that white woman. Maybe some other white, or half white woman would have been okay. Just because he wasn't there when Rhonda suggested that Andre destroy Hakeem and Jamal's fraternal bond and prompt them to "kill each other" doesn't mean that Lucious doesn't know who she is. If Lucious thinks Rhonda is the boss of Andre, and until last night, it kinda seemed like she was, that's probably not helping. 

 

As far as Jamal goes, sham marriage or not, the ex-wife is black. The "roommate with the dreds" was probably black. Ryan's black. Jamal seemed comfortable enough at Ghetto Ass Studio. He sings/listens to black music and doesn't ask for humus at family gatherings. And, gay or not, Michael was also a person of color and never dragged Jamal out of Laviticus by the balls. 

 

 

[Dusty]

 

While I do think it's "different" (for Lucious), we don't really know Rhonda's background. Does she have the same "débutante" background as Anika? She's a photographer, right? No offence to photographers, but I don't associate that profession with "Ivy League" or "establishment".

 

FOX has a sort of canon website for Empire where there are "articles" on various family members.  They have one on Andre and Rhonda.  According to the "article" Rhonda came from down south but not from money.  She worked three jobs in high school to go to college and they met while attending the same Ivy League school.  I don't think that Rhonda is a photographer.  I'm not exactly sure what her job title is but she hasn't actually taken any pictures.  She works in some sort of fashion thing. You can check them out here. http://welcometothelyonsden.com/

 

 

He sees Andre "bringing a white woman" into his house as a betrayal against him and the family. That he's not going to give what he and Cookie built to Rhonda. If Andre was single, it would be different.

 

My problem is that I don't believe that it would be different if Andre was single or if he were with someone of his own race.  I think Lucious believes that musical talent or whatever is the end all be all of running this company the way he wants it to be run.  He said as much in the pilot when they were in the boxing place.  I don't think Andre should be running the company at this point.  He's obviously not stable enough to do it and I'm on Team Cookie for who should take over the company when Lucious passes it on.  I think she can run the company for another 20 years or so.  He's the only one racing against time.  But I don't think Andre would've ever been in real contention if he had just gone down the path he's gone on without ever having met or married Rhonda.  I don't doubt that he has a problem with Rhonda being white but I don't think it's the actual reason for why he wouldn't give the company to Andre.

[Minneapple]

I agree that Cookie can get to be on the verge of tiring, but then...you see the desperation in her eyes when she seeks to reconcile with Hakeem, or the love and support she shows for Jamal, or that flashback to prison when she's singing "You're So Beautiful," and those moments to me are what make her a great character, and they're more amazing than any one-liners she can toss at Annika.

What I really want is for Cookie bonding with Andre. He's seemingly the son who needs her least when in reality he needs her -- or anyone -- the most. I definitely agree that Jamal is the son most like Lucious. He may be quiet and smile sweetly, but Jamal is just as ruthless as his father. Singing that song in that moment was a giant fuck you to Lucious.

[Timetoread]

Yes, it kind of is.

But as I said, that's just my take. It could be that Luscious just doesn't trust white people and doesn't want them in his family (Anika's dad would be an in-law but not part of the inner circle).

 

Lucius doesn't trust Black people who are trying to be white.  That was his point and his problem with Andre.

[Milz]

Cookie: I'm glad she's adjusting to life outside of jail and picking up where she left off being a music producer. I'm glad she dumped Lucious. She deserves someone better.  I KNEW the minute she saw Camilla she sized up Hakeem's mommy abandonment issues. And I'm happy they've taken the first step to building a relationship.

 

Hakeem: He finally got some sense knocked into his brain and figured out that Camilla was manipulating him regarding going last the Legacy project. It's good to see that he and Jamal are still tight.

 

Jamal: Loved that he was spending quality time with Lola. BUT seriously.........they need to call Maury or go on Lauren Lake's Paternity Court show to get a DNA test,. if they're too cheap to pay for one themselves. Okay, it's possible to get pregnant after one time, but Jamal and the family really need to know for sure that Lola is a Lyon. I don't want them to get attached to Lola, vice versa, only to have Lola taken away.

 

Andre: When he said that he felt left out of the family because he wasn't musically talented, my heart broke.  Whoring himself and pimping out Rhonda to make business deals shows, to me, how little Andre thinks of himself (and Rhonda) in spite of his academic degrees. It also makes me question if he didn't whore his way to get those grades.

 

Annika: She really can't use the dirt on Lucious ("forcing" her father to commit healthcare fraud) against Lucious without bring her father down too. IRL, judges don't accept the excuse "But judge, I was forced to commit healthcare fraud because for my family/my reputation/etc." Dr. Calhoun is toast if Annika goes public about Lucious's fraudulent clean bill of health.

 

Lucious: His behavior regarding Jamal coming out was bad (but expected), but his hatred towards Andre was equally bad, but unexpected. So Lucious thinks that Andre married a "white woman" to attain acceptance? What, then, does he think about his relationship with a debutante, daughter of a big shot doctor? Case of the pot calling the kettle 'Andre', imo.

[Rae Spellman]

 

Jamal: Loved that he was spending quality time with Lola. BUT seriously.........they need to call Maury or go on Lauren Lake's Paternity Court show to get a DNA test.

 

Maybe the Lyons already know. Just like presumably Cookie has some information about what happened after she put out that hit. 

 

In some states if Lola was conceived and born during the time that Jamal was legally married to Olivia, Jamal might still be the legal father even if he isn't the biological father. Off topic but tangentially related, I went to a workshop given by my local child support department and the presenter mentioned the importance of Kim getting legally divorced from the other guy before giving birth to North if Kanye was going to be the legal father of his biological child.

Edited February 27, 2015 by RaeSpellman

[funkopop]

Maybe the Lyons already know. Just like presumably Cookie has some information about what happened after she put out that hit. 

 

In some states if Lola was conceived and born during the time that Jamal was legally married to Olivia, Jamal might still be the legal father even if he isn't the biological father. Off topic but tangentially related, I went to a workshop given by my local child support department and the presenter mentioned the importance of Kim getting legally divorced from the other guy before giving birth to North if Kanye was going to be the legal father of his biological child.

 

Even if Lola isn't biologically Jamal's I can see them adopting her if they can prove that Olivia is an unfit mother or she has her in a unstable environment.  Her peace-ing out for the past few days/weeks would definitely not do her any favors.

Edited February 27, 2015 by funkopop

[Timetoread]

lol  i hate when these shows start revealing conversations black people have behind closed doors because the average white viewer has nocontext to the situation.

 

I agree with this because it seems that to too many viewers this statement revealed Lucius to also be a bigot.  But in reality his problem is not with Ronda BEING white, but with Andre for marrying somebody white BECAUSE she is white.  Because in his head marrying a white woman gives him credibility and status.  Lucius feels/knows that this is not the case.  He is very cognizant, maybe even to the point of paranoia of the plight of the black male in our society.  When Hakeem pulled his stunt at the restaurant, Lucius yelled at him about his not knowing what the police would do to him if they got him.  In his interview during the Kid Pho Pho incident, he spoke of Trayvon Martin and then trailed off with emotion.  Lucius wants his company to remain a shining example of what a black man did and he wants it to pass that down into perpetuity - not split the company up to whoever wants to control the money.  The show is called Empire but what Lucius REALLY wants is a  DYNASTY - not the soap opera, the dictionary definition of that word. 

 

So Lucious thinks that Andre married a "white woman" to attain acceptance? What, then, does he think about his relationship with a debutante, daughter of a big shot doctor? Case of the pot calling the kettle 'Andre', imo.

 

As stated above, it's not the same issue at all.  Anika would simply be a "wife".  Yes she would stand to get ridiculous amounts of money but she would never stand to inherit the company as whole - that is his concern.  He has three sons and he wants to guarantee that the business stays within the family.  Andre's actions (white wife, not liking/caring about the music that Hakeem makes, not finding money to fund a high profile artistic project, showing absolutely no interest in exploring his own talents (other than making money and fitting in) make Lucius believe that Andre would not take steps to make sure Empire stays in the family and a bastion of the African American community. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Timetoread

[Milz]

Maybe the Lyons already know. Just like presumably Cookie has some information about what happened after she put out that hit. 

 

In some states if Lola was conceived and born during the time that Jamal was legally married to Olivia, Jamal might still be the legal father even if he isn't the biological father. Off topic but tangentially related, I went to a workshop given by my local child support department and the presenter mentioned the importance of Kim getting legally divorced from the other guy before giving birth to North if Kanye was going to be the legal father of his biological child.

 

That's true. If the parents were legally married at the birth of the child, the husband is the legal father (even if he isn't the biologic father).  But if I were the Lyons, I'd still get a DNA test.

[Milz]

 

As stated above, it's not the same issue at all.  Anika would simply be a "wife".  Yes she would stand to get ridiculous amounts of money but she would never stand to inherit the company as whole - that is his concern.  He has three sons and he wants to guarantee that the business stays within the family.  Andre's actions (white wife, not liking/caring about the music that Hakeem makes, not finding money to fund a high profile artistic project, showing absolutely no interest in exploring his own talents (other than making money and fitting in) make Lucius believe that Andre would not take steps to make sure Empire stays in the family and a bastion of the African American community. 

 

My point was if Andre's motivation for marrying Rhonda was to gain credibility and status among white people (as Lucious implied), then Lucious marrying Anika is also an attempt to gain credibility and status among white people too because Anika is upper middle class and graduated from Julliard). Lucious is street and most likely a self taught musician (or if he did have music lessons it wasn't on a Julliard-like level). To me, Anika is a trophy just like Rhonda. And Lucious is a big hypocrite because he's using Anika for the same reasons that Andre uses Rhonda---credibility and status.

[Badsamaritan]

I agree with this because it seems that to too many viewers this statement revealed Lucius to also be a bigot.  But in reality his problem is not with Ronda BEING white, but with Andre for marrying somebody white BECAUSE she is white.  Because in his head marrying a white woman gives him credibility and status.  Lucius feels/knows that this is not the case.  He is very cognizant, maybe even to the point of paranoia of the plight of the black male in our society.  When Hakeem pulled his stunt at the restaurant, Lucius yelled at him about his not knowing what the police would do to him if they got him.  In his interview during the Kid Pho Pho incident, he spoke of Trayvon Martin and then trailed off with emotion.  Lucius wants his company to remain a shining example of what a black man did and he wants it to pass that down into perpetuity - not split the company up to whoever wants to control the money.  The show is called Empire but what Lucius REALLY wants is a  DYNASTY - not the soap opera, the dictionary definition of that word. 

 

 

As stated above, it's not the same issue at all.  Anika would simply be a "wife".  Yes she would stand to get ridiculous amounts of money but she would never stand to inherit the company as whole - that is his concern.  He has three sons and he wants to guarantee that the business stays within the family.  Andre's actions (white wife, not liking/caring about the music that Hakeem makes, not finding money to fund a high profile artistic project, showing absolutely no interest in exploring his own talents (other than making money and fitting in) make Lucius believe that Andre would not take steps to make sure Empire stays in the family and a bastion of the African American community. 

 

Exactly. But Andre was also right in that Lucius doesn't want the company run by someone who is only thinking of the bottom line and not about the music as a whole. It's the reason Tianna dropped Anika & went with Cookie - because Cookie is about protecting the music. At least for now, I don't think Andre cares about the music except as a means to an end - money & power. And I'm also one who believes that when all is said & done and the smoke clears, Cookie is the best person to run Empire. Boo Boo Kitty will not be at the helm of his company. She would get a bunch of money, but she would not be the HBIC.

[dirtypop90]

I just find it mighty funny that people stand behind all the unproven hateful ish lucious says to andre but lucious him over the coals for everything else. I think there's a disturbing tread of anti-intellectualism in the black community that Lee Daniels is poking at.

 

Nothing about andre says uncle tom. He's trying to run a black music label, was president of the black grad students in school, and does community outreach according to his bio on the website. And he hasn't sad a bad word about black people, or even his family on the show. People are making a lot of assumptions about andre with zero facts to back them up. His degrees and a white wife doesn't make him an uncle tom. If he was one, he wouldn't want anything to do with black people or black culture. 

 

The acceptance Andre is trying to gain is from Lucious, not white people.

Edited February 27, 2015 by dirtypop90

[ridethemaverick]

My point was if Andre's motivation for marrying Rhonda was to gain credibility and status among white people (as Lucious implied), then Lucious marrying Anika is also an attempt to gain credibility and status among white people too because Anika is upper middle class and graduated from Julliard). Lucious is street and most likely a self taught musician (or if he did have music lessons it wasn't on a Julliard-like level). To me, Anika is a trophy just like Rhonda. And Lucious is a big hypocrite because he's using Anika for the same reasons that Andre uses Rhonda---credibility and status.

Anika is not a trophy in white people's eyes because biracial people, no matter how accomplished, (see: Obama) are still seen as black by white people in this country.

If anything, him marrying Anika might give him a smidge of status among certain black folks but even that's a stretch.

I just find it mighty funny that people stand behind all the unproven hateful ish lucious says to andre but lucious him over the coals for everything else. I think there's a disturbing tread of anti-intellectualism in the black community that Lee Daniels is poking at.

Nothing about andre says uncle tom. He's trying to run a black music label, was president of the black grad students in school, and does community outreach according to his bio on the website. And he hasn't sad a bad word about black people, or even his family on the show. People are making a lot of assumptions about andre with zero facts to back them up. His degrees and a white wife doesn't make him an uncle tom. If he was one, he wouldn't want anything to do with black people or black culture.

The acceptance Andre is trying to gain is from Lucious, not white people.

.

The black community is not anti intellectual. Black folks are anti forgetting where you came from. Get all the education you want, but use it for the good of your people. That means don't run off to the Ivy League, get a good job, and go live in a white neighborhood and marry a white person just to show you "made it."

If Andre had married an educated black woman, he'd still be an outsider due to not having musical talent, but nobody would see him as a sellout.