S01.E17: Social Engineering

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Henry and Jo examine the world of cyber-terrorism to track down a killer when a member of a secret hack-tivist group turns up dead. The investigation also puts Henry in jeopardy of having his own secret exposed. How far will he go to keep his mystery from being revealed? He must walk a fine line between judging if others' secrets are worth keeping in order to save himself or be ready to take off - again. Flashbacks to an 1865 London hospital revisit Henry's first wife, Nora, who is now in her 70s and threatening once again to reveal Henry's condition, with disastrous results. Abe remembers back to his activist days and offers Henry an important clue to his current case.

 

Promo:

[statsgirl]

I love Jane Alexander in anything.

 

The flashbacks made me realize that it's easier for me to believe someone can live forever than that Henry can keep his English accent for all those years that he's been living in the U.S.

 

Are we allowed to talk about this episode after it's aired in Canada but before it's seen in the US?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Yes, we've been doing it all season.

[waving feather]

Wow, I adored this episode. One of my favorites. 

 

I liked Henry's interactions with Jo, one of the victims, the killer and Abe. 

 

"We gassed ourselves, shaved a corpse..." What a sentence!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

So now we know that Abe was in California in 1969!

 

I'm guessing that this is the closest we will get to seeing Henry and Jo in bed together. I'm not a shipper but I can see how adorable it was to have them lying in bed facing each other talking about life and death.

[Shades of Red]

I

Are we allowed to talk about this episode after it's aired in Canada but before it's seen in the US?

 

I could be wrong about this and I'm sure someone who knows better than I do will chime in, but I think we can discuss but not post spoilers before it airs south of us.

 

I really like all the little "fill ins" for Henry's history.  They are well placed and don't take away from the main "current day" story line.

 

Watching last night made me a little sad realizing just how much Henry has to give up to remain anonymous and out of the spotlight.  It also brought up how much heartache he must have experienced over his lifetime.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I could be wrong about this and I'm sure someone who knows better than I do will chime in, but I think we can discuss but not post spoilers before it airs south of us.

As I posted above, yes, we can discuss the episode once it airs in Canada. We have been doing so all season. There are several shows that are available before they actually air on television in the United States and PTV has consistently allowed us to discuss the episodes without spoiler tags. Sometimes it's because the show airs first in another country (Broadchurch, Downtown Abbey). Other times it's because the network makes the episodes available on demand before they air on television (most recently with the first few episodes of 12 Monkeys but Showtime does this with several of their shows all season including House of Lies, Nurse Jackie, and the recently departed Californication).

[blugirlami21]

This was probably my favorite episode so far.  Lots of twists and turns, I do think that car trick was used a little too often though.  Jo and Henry in bed together was adorable.  I don't think the show will go there anytime soon but it's nice to think about.

 

Henry's first wife was a peace of work wasn't she?  It was bad enough when she had him committed but to come back years later and try to take advantage of him again was pretty ridiculous especially since Henry was willing to let bygones be bygones.  Why couldn't she leave well enough alone?

 

I will say again that Abe and Henry are the best part of the show for me.  I loved their scene at the end when Abe was trying to overshare and Henry had to primly remind him of whom he was talking to.  Too cute.

Edited March 4, 2015 by blugirlami21

[zannej]

I'm confused about the timing of Abe being an anti-war activist. 1969 right? When was he in the Vietnam war? I can't remember when they said he shipped off. I just find it odd that he willingly signed up to go to 'nam and then turned around and was a war protester. Did the writers just forget that? Back then the war protesters tended to vilify the soldiers, so I find it very hard to believe Abe would have joined a group like that.

 

I suspected that the "cyber crimes" people were in on the crime the moment they walked in. Nobody asked for ID? I would have asked for ID. I also am not a fan of the whole "big brother is watching" and stuff about hacking into everything and taking control plotlines. It always seems like its trying to scare the audience. And the technology doesn't work quite as well (or as fast) as people seem to think it does. Maybe in the future it will, but not quite yet. 

 

I thought it was funny how Nigel was trying to flirt with the cybercrimes chick and Henry said something about "too strong" and to try subtlety and he was saying it about the picture, but you could tell there was a double meaning that he needed to be more suave with asking the woman out.

 

I kept waiting for someone to mention that Guam has no medical school. and then they went and said that he went to University of Guam-- which does not have medical degrees (but its fantastic for marine biology- they caught and identified a new species of octopus in the late 90s). I wonder if they still have that really old large world globe that they had in one of the classrooms.... Anyway, the Guam thing distracted me. LOL.

 

I kept sort of wishing Henry would imply somehow that he was in witness protection or something-- although that might be difficult because of his connection to Abe. I do wonder what Abe's records said about his parents and such...

 

I really liked the bit where Henry explained to the hacker girl that starting a new life is not easy. You could see that it was getting through to her somewhat and that he seemed to genuinely care.

 

I will say that the chick got negative points for not looking before she crossed the road even if the crosswalk was green. I always look before I cross because I know there are idiots who run through red lights or don't stop for pedestrians. I've nearly been run over in pedestrians walking areas because people were too impatient and didn't care that I had right of way. But I guess she was so focused on her phone while walking.

 

I liked that she actually saved Henry's backstory for him because he saved her life.

 

I actually laughed when the real killer stepped in front of the ambulance-- although I felt bad for the drivers. When I was taking a First Responder course in Guam, the teachers stressed that you should never ever step out into the street to try to flag down an ambulance because the ambulances are heavy and can't stop in time. Apparently they ran over people quite frequently because the people didn't realize how far the ambulance would go once the brakes were hit.

 

As for Nora, in a way I understood her thought processes. She realized she screwed up and she somehow thought the way to make it right was to expose Henry's secret. I think maybe she actually had lost her mind somewhat. I felt bad for the nurse who threw herself in front of Henry. So sad-- especially since she seemed like a genuinely sweet woman and she was brave to throw herself in front of him. Henry's devastation was so clear. No wonder he spoke bitterly about Nora later on. I thought it was just that she had him committed, but she then shot the woman he was probably falling in love with. I know before that he didn't want her to be sent to the loony bin because he knew how bad it was, and even though she'd had him sent there, he was too kind go want her to go through something like that. I wonder what happened to her after that though.

 

I wonder if Henry will ever let slip to Jo that he had a wife who tried to kill him and ended up being committed or something. Probably not though. I don't think he likes to mention Nora much.

 

I also liked the scene with Jo and Henry in the gas masks talking about his fascination with death.

[sinkwriter]

Still chuckling over the exchange between Henry and Jo, which basically boiled down to:

 

Henry: Let's go gas ourselves!

Jo: Now you're talking!

 

LOL.

 

I like that she keeps trying to chip away a little at a time and get to know him better, asking him questions about his life choices. I'm just really sad that he can't be completely honest with her. But I was impressed that he stuck to his code, damn the consequences, in order to save that hacker from the life he has to live and again to literally save her life. I love that she hacked his files so that he could be safer. Nice that he has an ally who doesn't know everything about his secret but enough now to realize that it's not the easiest life. I liked her; she was like a much less rough-around-the-edges Lisbeth (Girl with the Dragon Tattoo).

[sinkwriter]

 

I will say that the chick got negative points for not looking before she crossed the road even if the crosswalk was green.

 

I was confused by that at first, because as I watched the moment I thought she was the one who had changed the crosswalk light to green so that she could keep on walking without breaking her stride. When she got hit and the driver said she walked out in front of a green light, I didn't get it until I realized someone else did it in order to kill her. And I realized it had to be the mystery woman who had been conned by Eric in order to get the city codes. I liked the twist.

 

Though it would be nice if they eased up on all the crazy woman killing people -- last week it was a psycho woman murdering her own roommate and almost killing the dominatrix. And Nora was definitely no peach either. Interesting 180 degree turn from being afraid of Henry and not believing him to thinking he had some sort of "gift" and it was her duty to share it with everyone. She really screwed him over twice.

 

Makes me wonder what happened to Henry after that incident in which the nurse was killed by Nora. They might have locked up Nora in an asylum (interesting "karma" after what she did to him), but did he feel safe working there after that nightmare mess, or did he leave because she stirred up too many questions? At some point he must have stopped practicing standard medicine and instead became a medical examiner. I wonder if this was one of the catalysts for that change in career.

[slothgirl]

The flashbacks made me realize that it's easier for me to believe someone can live forever than that Henry can keep his English accent for all those years that he's been living in the U.S

I've known a number of people whose native acents got stronger as their years and decades in the US went by. I've never understood it since I unconsciously tend to start talking like the people around me within a few days.

Abe and Henry are the best part of the show for me.  I loved their scene at the end when Abe was trying to overshare and Henry had to primly remind him of whom he was talking to.  Too cute.

I loved the beginning of that scene where Henry was sitting by the fire. I had trouble figuring out what era it was, and I'm sure that was deliberate.

I kept waiting for someone to mention that Guam has no medical school. and then they went and said that he went to University of Guam-- which does not have medical degrees

I just substitute Grenada in my head. ;)

Edited March 4, 2015 by slothgirl

[slothgirl]

Makes me wonder what happened ...  after that incident in which the nurse was killed by Nora.

I felt like a scene got left on the cutting room floor. What happened to Nora? Asylum? Or hanging?

 

On the whole, I thought this was a good episode. The backstory and current crime meshed nicely as usual. I like the story framework on this show.

 

However, I seem to be alone in thinking the scene of Henry and Jo lying on the bed seemed like a ridiculously contrived way to toss a bone to the 'shippers without actually have anything happen. Gas masks? really? (eyeroll) Cause, the characters could have accomplished the same thing forensically without actually even being in the room for the whole time, much less on the bed. (and if they're wearing gas masks anyway, what's the point of lyong on the bed where the victim lay? Henry didn't even take the reading while lying down.)

 

It started out badly for me though when Henry comments on Marconi inventing the radio. He of all people should know (given his love of a variety of trivia) that Marconi did NOT invent the radio. My hero Tesla gets snubbed again. :(

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm confused about the timing of Abe being an anti-war activist. 1969 right? When was he in the Vietnam war? I can't remember when they said he shipped off. I just find it odd that he willingly signed up to go to 'nam and then turned around and was a war protester. Did the writers just forget that? Back then the war protesters tended to vilify the soldiers, so I find it very hard to believe Abe would have joined a group like that.

According to the "The Wolves of Deep Brooklyn," Abe joined the military in 1965. He may have been one of the soldiers who believed he was going to help and then came back disillusioned and became a vocal anti-war activist as a result of his experience, which is how he ended up with the Berkeley protesters in 1969.

Edited March 4, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[kikaha]

This episode pointed up the huge problem Henry faces in our modern world.  Keeping his secret a secret.  Especially given his current position, which attracts public attention.  I wonder if the show will address this in future episodes? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Back when I used to watch Buffy, I always thought about how much easier it was for immortals like Angel to create new identities before all this technology existed. A hundred years ago, you couldn't just google somone and find pictures of them or their work history. You could just say, "I'm John and I just moved here from Europe," and people believed you. Now you need a social security number, a birth certificate, a passport, etc. so you can travel, get a bank account, get a job. And if you want a job that isn't entry level, you have to fake your education and experience as Henry did. In other words, what a pain in the ass!

[Sakura12]

While they were showing what technology could do or will do in the future, I also thought they showed the downside when hacker girl was looking down at her phone instead of looking both ways before crossing the street. I know she thought the walk light was on, but you still should look before crossing. Showing that the 20 something and younger generation are too dependent on tech and don't pay attention to the real world surroundings. 

 

I did like Henry and Jo lying in bed talking about death. I loved her excitement at his suggestion they go gas themselves. She's wasn't going to let the cyber division do all the work for her. She's like Henry in that way. They both like the puzzle of figuring something out. 

 

Nora's a piece of work isn't she. First she puts him in an asylum then shoots the woman he was falling for.

 

I could buy Abe being like most soldiers growing disillusioned to war after they return.  Henry and Abe are still the greatest and I love how they show Abe sometimes forgetting that Henry is his father because he's looked exactly the same his whole life. Also with having to pretend with everyone else that Henry's a friend instead of a parent. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Sakura12

[pcta]

I'm confused about the timing of Abe being an anti-war activist. 1969 right? When was he in the Vietnam war? I can't remember when they said he shipped off. I just find it odd that he willingly signed up to go to 'nam and then turned around and was a war protester.

There even was the group Vietnam Veterans Against the War

[StaceyNotStacie]

Another great episode.  It was an interesting topic and I enjoyed the back story with Henry and his first wife.  I wish they would have commented on what happened to her.  I'm assuming that the woman (I think she was a nurse) who was shot ended up dying.

[sonyab]

Lucas: Lucas cracks me up! From not wanting to be seen on the internet, because how he has things in his life he isn't proud of, to liking that blonde woman hahaha. Just ask her out man! Oh wait she turned out bad. :( Sorry Lucas. Oh he was attracted to the evil! ROFL!

 

Flashback Nora:

 

Nora: Don't deny me joy.

 

Say what?!!?! Are you high?! You have no rights!!!! And then she has the gall to want to tell the world about Henry?! You didn't believe him back then! You sent him to an institution!!! What makes you think people are going to believe you?!!?! People might send you or even him back to the institution!!  I can't stand this woman!

 

Jo and Henry: They were so cute on the bed with gas masks hehe. They were looking at each other talking. Sweet!

 

Henry and Abe: Love them in the end! Just adorable.

 

Henry: I am your father!

 

Hahahaha. Henry didn't want to hear about Abe's sex life ROFL! Apparently he had a threesome? Hahahahaha!

 

 

[dubbel zout]

There even was the group Vietnam Veterans Against the War

 

John Kerry, anyone?

 

The Guam thing continues to bug. Forget that there's no med school there IRL, as I think we're supposed to assume there is. (If not, the writers have completely dropped the ball.) Why would an Englishman go to Guam in the first place? It's not exactly on the way to anywhere. It's in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.  

 

I'm kind of surprised Henry hasn't had some sort of plan in place for someone digging around in his past. There are records for only the previous five years? There's no way the NYPD wouldn't have done a background check on Henry for his position as ME. Heck, why hasn't Jo dug around a bit? I'm having a hard time handwaving a lot of this kind of thing. It's not being nitpicky. It's expecting the show to have thought things through. Even though Henry hates technology, he should realize by now that he can't ignore it forever. I'm surprised he doesn't have a hacker to make the changes the woman did. There are a number of ways he could explain needing his history messed with. He doesn't have to cop to immortality.

 

Nora's a piece of work isn't she. First she puts him in an asylum then shoots the woman he was falling for.

 

She didn't mean to shoot the nurse. I can't hate on Nora too much. She was a product of her era. I doubt Jo would take Henry's immortality with a shrug even today. It sounds as if Henry abandoned Nora (with justification, given that she put him in an asylum), but did he not have anyone keep an eye on her? You'd think he'd want to be sure she didn't keep blabbing about him. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by dubbel zout

[theatremouse]

I know that this is stupid of me, and I saw who it was the second the cybercrimes people showed up (also because no one asked them for ID, although I guess it turns out they were who they said they were, still, it was very conspicuous) nonetheless it bothered me that it seemed Henry's suspicion/uncovering of her rested on the "gross things are gross". Of course everything else made sense, but still, to me if the woman had the constitution to be a good liar (which clearly she didn't) it's easy enough to differentiate between "bruised and swollen" doesn't bug you but "dead person" does. I mean, she flubbed the reaction to the first question, so the scene did make sense. But if bugged me that it hinged, essentially, on her not keeping up her own lies when they were pretty easy to cover. So it felt a little deus ex machina to me. Although I guess most of the killer-reveals on this show sort of are. Henry makes a wild guess based on solid facts, but that still could be wrong, but never is. It's...unsatisfying.

[maraleia]

FYI it's the policy of this site that we are allowed to talk about episodes after they air no matter where they air first so if Canada gets Forever a day ahead of the US then it's fair game to discuss the episodes in the appropriate episode thread without spoiler tags.

It's everyone's responsibility to stay out of episode threads if they don't want to be spoiled. For example Downton Abbey airs in the UK four months ahead of the US and by the time it airs in the US each episode thread has about 80-90 comments.

[Whimsy]

As I posted above, yes, we can discuss the episode once it airs in Canada. We have been doing so all season. There are several shows that are available before they actually air on television in the United States and PTV has consistently allowed us to discuss the episodes without spoiler tags. Sometimes it's because the show airs first in another country (Broadchurch, Downtown Abbey). Other times it's because the network makes the episodes available on demand before they air on television (most recently with the first few episodes of 12 Monkeys but Showtime does this with several of their shows all season including House of Lies, Nurse Jackie, and the recently departed Californication).

Once a show has aired (even if it's Canada) it's free to talk about without spoiler tags. I can pin a note if you all feel it's necessary.

[sinkwriter]

One of my favorite jokes from last night's episode?

 

The hacker telling Henry, "You are the slowest typer ever." Which was so true.

 

LOL.

 

(And then he corrects her grammar: "Typist." Heee.)

[HalcyonDays]

Thank you! We Canadians just want to be able to talk about this awesome show in a timely manner. *GRIN*

 

On that note - I thought this was a pretty good episode. The cyber aspect of it really hits home, in the sense that there is no more privacy anymore. Also, the contrast of the IT guys being so confident with computers, yet the moment real investigating takes place, they were lost.

 

I liked how the 'fake' documents that Henry had were so easy to uncover as fake, and it makes perfect sense. In this digital age with all of the security, it would be much harder for Henry to fake his life. Before, when it was all paper, he had a better chance. Liked the girl at the end putting him as Oxford grad, except if one inquires at Oxford, there would be no record of Henry.

 

The blonde IT chick committing suicide make no sense - she could just disappear and do her IT thing and get a new identity. Just made no sense.

 

Nora, Nora, Nora. You are crazy. When Henry and the other girl (I forget her name) were like "how far would you go to protect yourself." I thought for sure that Henry would off Nora, to keep her silent, but I remembered that the show sated that Henry never killed anyone deliberately. Still, I would really consider it. What a crazy stupid foolish woman.

 

Jo and Henry lying in bed, facing each other and chatting - warmed my shipper heart and so cute.

 

I really hope they renew this show - it's so much fun!!

[sinkwriter]

 

Liked the girl at the end putting him as Oxford grad, except if one inquires at Oxford, there would be no record of Henry.

 

I assumed that the hacker girl manufactured everything so that Oxford's computer records would show Henry as an alum. She seemed pretty talented at what she does (her friend called her a genius), so I bet if anyone looked at Oxford, their computers would suddenly show Henry Morgan as a former student, backing up his story. Of course, no teachers would have any recollection of him.

[mythoughtis]

I can't fault Nora for thinking he was crazy. I can't fault her for thinking its a miracle and we should all be happy. I can fault her for going so far as to attempt to shoot him to watch him not die. And I can fault her for not respecting his need to live his new life in private.

[henripootel]

I do think that car trick was used a little too often though.

I was honestly wondering if the last shot we were gonna see of Nora was her running outside to catch up with Henry and explain her trying to shoot him - only to be run down by a carriage.  Yeah, they do love that 'hit by a car' effect, which is convincingly brutal.

Back when I used to watch Buffy, I always thought about how much easier it was for immortals like Angel to create new identities before all this technology existed.

 

Yes and no.  Real example of this: a guy I know has a model that suggests that psychopathy may be on the rise in modern conditions.  Psychopaths are not necessarily dangerous folks but they do tend to lie even when they don't need to (cuz they're psychopaths) and after a while, people compare notes and find out that they're lying.  So they move on to find new folks to lie to, which used to be pretty hard when people asked for references and family connections and whatnot.  These days it's super easy to switch places, just don't leave a credential trail that can be disproven easily by internet checking and you're good to go.  Same can be said of immortals, who I'd think would make a habit of creating new (semi-legitimate) identities long before they actually need them.

 

I was actually a bit disappointed by this aspect of the story, namely that Morgan and the hacker chick, when confronted by the truth, merely sputtered and gave up the ruse super easy and quick.  How about this, Henry: your records only look hacked because this super group of hackers seem to have erased any sign of your existence before 6 years ago.  No need to give into any blackmail, just be ready to argue that, in an episode about how computer records can be hacked and so can't be trusted, 'computer records can be hacked and so can't be trusted'.  After two centuries, you'd think Henry could manage more than just stunned, guilty-looking silence.

 

And call me crazy but that picture in the paper in 1865 didn't look enough like anyone to spark any action, even a crazy old lady to believe her 'long-dead' husband actually is the immortal he claimed to be.  Oh, and Henry - might want to use your middle name for a generation or two to avoid awkward reunions, albeit easily-explained-away ones ('sorry, crazy old lady, but I'm clearly not your old husband.  Gotta go.').

Edited March 4, 2015 by henripootel

[possibilities]

I think the blonde IT woman gave up because she wasn't typically a hacker-murderer type. I think it was supposed to show that she felt so humiliated that she couldn't come back from the exposure, even internally, and also she wasn't cut out for being a fugitive or changing her identity. Unfortunately, this leaves us with the much less interesting portrait of a woman who became murderously vindictive when her heart got broken, and lost her mind completely over it. Women! Such idiots!

 

Not unlike Nora, who I might forgive for thinking Henry was crazy and for trusting the psych system if she really didn't know better, but once she became convinced she was wrong, a little more humility and a lot less grandstanding would have been the better course. For her to show up and start babbling to strangers that she was his spouse, and then pull out a gun to publicly shoot him to prove her point, to me is just... well, idiocy. Contact him quietly, apologize, see if he is willing to forgive her, see how hes doing, catch up on a few decades of news, see if he accepts her sincere apologies and find out what he wants. But no, she's a volatile, overly-emotional, irrational drama queen. Women! Such idiots!

 

Lucky we have Jo as counterpoint. But two tropey lady dimbulbs in one episode was a bit much for me.

Edited March 4, 2015 by possibilities

[Clanstarling]

The flashbacks made me realize that it's easier for me to believe someone can live forever than that Henry can keep his English accent for all those years that he's been living in the U.S.

 

 

 

I've known a number of people whose native acents got stronger as their years and decades in the US went by. I've never understood it since I unconsciously tend to start talking like the people around me within a few days.

I've heard it called "having an ear." Like you, I pick up whatever accent I'm around - which can be incredibly annoying both to me and the people I'm picking it up from. Some people just don't have it. Look at Henry Kissinger - who moved to America when he was 13 and is now in his 90's and still speaks with a thick accent.

[slothgirl]

The Guam thing continues to bug. Forget that there's no med school there IRL, as I think we're supposed to assume there is. (If not, the writers have completely dropped the ball.) Why would an Englishman go to Guam in the first place?

 

I'm kind of surprised Henry hasn't had some sort of plan in place for someone digging around in his past. There are records for only the previous five years? There's no way the NYPD wouldn't have done a background check on Henry for his position as ME.

 

She didn't mean to shoot the nurse. I can't hate on Nora too much. She was a product of her era. I doubt Jo would take Henry's immortality with a shrug even today.

Another reason I substitute Grenada for Guam in my head is the connection with England.

 

I agree that it makes no sense that HEnry could get a job (especially one related to police work or a government position of any kind) without proper ID. In NYS (as with elsewhere I imagine) you have to show several forms of ID nowadays and the employer must keep records of them on file, even when it's just a small private company.

 

Nora: Really, who WOULD believe a story like that? Linda Hamilton didn't in Terminator. The entire scene was directed in a way that was supposed to make you see why she would think he was nuts.. he seemed nuts even to those of us who know the story! And yeah.. she didn't mean to shoot someone else. She was aiming for Henry since she knew she wouldn't actually kill him. He never got a chance to talk to her about what heppens when he "dies". She probably thought he wouldn't be affected at all by the bullet. My guess is that since she was getting on in years, she has personal as well as "global" interest in the world learning how they could become immortal. But there must have been SOMETHING about her that made Henry want to marry her in the first place, so I can't get on board with all the hate.

 

I also didn't see a scene where it was indicated that Henry was falling for the nurse, but maybe I cat-napped through it.

Edited March 5, 2015 by slothgirl

[henripootel]

She didn't mean to shoot the nurse. I can't hate on Nora too much. She was a product of her era. I doubt Jo would take Henry's immortality with a shrug even today.

She's a stupid-ass product of her era.  I woulda thought that 'outing' a miracle of god in public was unspeakably rude, not to mention that her method involved discharging a firearm in a crowd.  If Henry wanted 19th century England to know of his immortality, he would have let them know by now.  I could forgive Nora for having her husband committed (barely) but this?  No.

 

Besides, how did she know what kind of immortal Henry really was?  Maybe he was merely ageless but not deathless, in which case she was gonna end him to make a point that wasn't hers to make.

 

I'd still find it easier to believe that she'd remarked on the uncanny resemblance of this Henry Morgan to her long-dead husband and concluded that they were relatives, long brfore she'd decide 'I guess he really was immortal after all'.  It isn't wholly impossible given her frail mental state but it seems convenient on a show about an immortal guy.  I do hope Jo, once she inevitably sees a picture of Henry from the early 1900s, doesn't immediately go there too.  I know this is a world where they saw Highlander but I'd like to think this wouldn't make immortality more plausible than 'family resemblance'.  

Edited March 5, 2015 by henripootel

[sinkwriter]

 

I do hope Jo, once she inevitably sees a picture of Henry from the early 1900s, doesn't immediately go there too.  I know this is a world where they saw Highlander but I'd like to think wouldn't make immortality more plausible than 'family resemblance'.

 

Agreed! I can't see modern brains immediately jumping to "oh wow, you're immortal!" I'd be much more inclined to say, "Wow, you look just like your great-grandfather!"

 

A few years back, I got a chance to see my grandfather's high school yearbook, and I would swear (minus glasses) my younger brother was the spitting image of him at that time. It was uncanny. I got chills. 'Genes' was what I thought, not "Holy shit, my grandfather is an immortal being still alive, or somehow reincarnated as my brother!" LOL.

[theatremouse]

I also didn't see a scene where it was indicated that Henry was falling for the nurse, but maybe I cat-napped through it.

They were making out in the hallway in the scene before she told him there was a woman claiming to be his wife. So it was less an "indicating was falling for" as an "indicate they're in an established relationship". Edited March 5, 2015 by theatremouse

[Netfoot]

II wonder what happened to her after that though.

 

She walks in to a hospital babbling that the handsome, young doctor is her long lost husband that she sent to the asylum decades ago, pulls out a very large revolver, and kills said handsome young doctor's girlfriend who is a nurse in said hospital. 

 

I think it's the nut-house or the rope.

 

Back when I used to watch Buffy, I always thought about how much easier it was for immortals like Angel to create new identities before all this technology existed.

 

Any immortal should be working on several new identities, years before they are needed.  You don't get fake documents, you apply for real ones.  You'd have to start off with a birth certificate which can't be checked (city hall burned down or something) and work from there.  Thirty years later, when you need it, you have an identity that stretches back thirty years, with all sorts of genuine data points on file to support it.  Henry should be working on his next identity all like now.  And the one after that, too. 

 

Why would an Englishman go to Guam in the first place? It's not exactly on the way to anywhere. It's in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

 

Englishmen are everywhere.  I know -- my father was one. 

[henripootel]

Any immortal should be working on several new identities, years before they are needed.  You don't get fake documents, you apply for real ones.

Apparently the russians were masters of this IRL, setting up identities for 'illegals' (think The Americans) decades in advance, and this was back in the day.  They bought property, paid taxes, got driver's licenses, the works.  One day somebody'd show up and take on the identity, which often involved 'moving' from Canada to the US.  Immortals would be wise to do the same.  Long-term planning and compound interest, the immortal's friends.

Edited March 5, 2015 by henripootel

[zannej]

I guess maybe Henry picked Guam because it is a small island that is not easy to reach. And even if you can reach it, I don't know how long they keep their records on students. Some places toss their records after awhile and sometimes they lose things. I had my medical records lost in Guam. They also lost my student records for awhile, but eventually they found them again. I still remember standing in line for 7 hours for registration and as soon as I handed my paperwork over the power went out. That was not a fun day.

Since Guam is populated by the locals and mostly US military personnel, people come and go a lot. There's an air force base, Naval Telecommunications (NCTMS) base, small Army base, and large Navy base spread out on the island. There are frequent power outages as well as numerous earthquakes and typhoons. Stuff gets flooded. Records get lost. One time there was a fire in the computer room at the airport and some "genius" decided to install sprinklers instead of non-water type of fire suppressant.. and it caused an electrical fire that got worse and fried all of the computers.

Anyway, it wouldn't be hard for Henry to claim that his records were lost in a combination of computer failure and water damage-- BUT, he would still have a hard time explaining that there are no medical courses (save for nursing) on the curriculum.

 

I just realized that I wrote "Nigel" instead of "Lucas" in another post... brain fart... LOL.

 

As for accents, I've lived in the south for quite a few years and I have maintained my northern accent. The locals frequently comment on it.

 

I do find it interesting that Henry's English accent is a modern one. I would imagine that the accent was different when he was growing up.

 

I think Nora probably got sent to the loony bin. I don't know if they would have hung an old woman who appeared to be delusional.

[topanga]

However, I seem to be alone in thinking the scene of Henry and Jo lying on the bed seemed like a ridiculously contrived way to toss a bone to the 'shippers without actually have anything happen. Gas masks? really? (eyeroll) Cause, the characters could have accomplished the same thing forensically without actually even being in the room for the whole time, much less on the bed. (and if they're wearing gas masks anyway, what's the point of lyong on the bed where the victim lay? Henry didn't even take the reading while lying down.)

This scene did surprise me, since the show so far hasn't created any UST between Henry & Jo. They've been good partners who are growing closer as friends, but Jo has always been mourning her husband, and Henry has/had been hanging out with Dominatrix Lady.

 

But I did enjoy the scene. Alana de la Garza's eyes are absolutely gorgeous. I know she was wearing make up and false eyelashes, but only Nature can create those long, almond-shaped eyes of hers.

 

And Henry's discussion about unpleasant ways to die made me wonder if he'd experienced all of those. It sounds like he had indeed died in a fire and had starved to death, but had he really been dismembered? Ouch--did he fall into a lion's den or snitch on someone from a Mafia family?

 

My only nitpick with this otherwise great episode? Once again, Henry solves the crime while Detective Martinez plays the role of sidekick. Can't they solve the crime together, ala Castle? "I know who the killer is!"

 

ETA: Another nit-pick: when Henry used feet/second to describe the speed of natural gas dispersion.  In medicine and science, the metric system is still the preferred method. Unless he was "translating" for Jo.

Edited March 5, 2015 by topanga

[dubbel zout]

Once again, Henry solves the crime while Detective Martinez plays the role of sidekick.

This has always been a beef of mine, along with Henry always being the one with just the right esoteric knowledge. I hate it.

[Sakura12]

One of the things I enjoy about Elementary is the cops figure things out the same time Sherlock does just in a different, slower way and when they deal with medical cases Joan is the one to talk about it. However people complain on that show that Sherlock is supposed to be the smartest person ever so no one should figure anything out before him. Sherlock probably does know almost everything, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is stupid. 

 

This show could use some of that. Jo is not stupid and has been solving cases long before Henry came around. She should know things and be able to share her knowledge. Even if Henry knows it. I want her to say it first. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sakura12

[Netfoot]

In medicine and science, the metric system is still the preferred method. Unless he was "translating" for Jo.

 

But in Henry's formative years, the metric system would be relatively unknown.  This is simply the writers bashing us over the head with another  This-Man-Is-Really-Old-ism.

[bros402]

The cringeworthy "tech" jargon make me want to tear my hair out. It's like the tech consultants on these shows just toss a bunch of words into a hat, then pick a few at random that sound good.

 

 

Though it would be nice if they eased up on all the crazy woman killing people -- last week it was a psycho woman murdering her own roommate and almost killing the dominatrix. And Nora was definitely no peach either. Interesting 180 degree turn from being afraid of Henry and not believing him to thinking he had some sort of "gift" and it was her duty to share it with everyone. She really screwed him over twice.

 

Makes me wonder what happened to Henry after that incident in which the nurse was killed by Nora. They might have locked up Nora in an asylum (interesting "karma" after what she did to him), but did he feel safe working there after that nightmare mess, or did he leave because she stirred up too many questions? At some point he must have stopped practicing standard medicine and instead became a medical examiner. I wonder if this was one of the catalysts for that change in career.

 

By the time of the Jack the Ripper case, wasn't Henry still a doctor?

[Kromm]

I can't help but compare this with the CSI: Cyber episode we just got, and this was about 100 times better.

 

I was very skeptical of this show at first and indeed the early episodes had a lot of bullshit in them.  But the last few have been stellar, including this one.  After the first few, the writers actually started to think about what it must mean to be Henry Morgan, the actual logistical, moral and emotional problems, and we've been getting a ton of the wrinkles of that.  Plus, in the vein of a show like Castle, they always leave a little humor in, even in an episode with multiple people being slammed into by cars.  Well done.

This show could use some of that. Jo is not stupid and has been solving cases long before Henry came around. She should know things and be able to share her knowledge. Even if Henry knows it. I want her to say it first. 

This is a legit problem.  Jo (all the cops really) are props for Henry.  I actually think that's even STILL a problem with Elementary, then again that show is based on Sherlock Holmes, where the cops really WERE just props in the original stories.  Whereas Forever, for all the fantastic premise, is supposed to be a little more grounded (outside of Henry's life situation).

[Kromm]

Besides, how did she know what kind of immortal Henry really was?  Maybe he was merely ageless but not deathless, in which case she was gonna end him to make a point that wasn't hers to make.

I think the fact that he was going to knife himself in front of her that first time communicated that he was claiming to be deathless.  Plus his constant repetition of the phrase "I can't die".  

 

Small subtle hints like that!

Edited March 6, 2015 by Kromm

[henripootel]

I think the fact that he was going to knife himself in front of her that first time communicated that he was claiming to be deathless.

Had Henry tried shooting himself?  Most deathless immortals actually aren't - vampires, Connor MacLeod, demons.  Take a licking and keep on ... oh wait, beheading?  Stake to the heart? Certain metals?  Dead.  Turns out a gunshot wouldn't have finished Henry but Nora didn't know that.

[iMonrey]

I can't fault Nora for thinking he was crazy. I can't fault her for thinking its a miracle and we should all be happy.

 

My issue with Nora isn't that she had her husband committed, it was the cold shoulder she gave him when she visited him in that hell hole of a snake pit. At that point she should have realized nothing more would come of it than spending the rest of his life in a hellish dungeon. I don't know how you can see something like that and just walk away thinking "doctors" are actually going to help him. It made her seem so uncaring I half wondered if maybe she'd just been looking for an excuse to be rid of him. I was glad to see Henry still pissed off at her however many years later.

 

Agreed! I can't see modern brains immediately jumping to "oh wow, you're immortal!" I'd be much more inclined to say, "Wow, you look just like your great-grandfather!"

 

In Nora's case she had the background of Henry trying to convince her he couldn't die. She may not have believed him at the time but once she saw his picture years later, and the fact that he was still using the same name, made it more logical she should jump to that conclusion. Plus no doubt someone eventually told her that her husband simply disappeared from the madhouse.

 

Jane Alexander did a great job with the role but I wonder why they didn't just use the same actress and make her up to look older.

[orza]

It would look fake (and is expensive) to age up a young actress with custom facial prosthetics and heavy makeup and it is not sure thing that she will know how to portray an old woman believably, Why bother when they can cast a mature world-class actress in the role and get the performance they are looking for.

[jelaine]

All this talk about setting up other identities has me wondering, has Henry ever been anyone but Dr. Henry Morgan?  I know there is different paper work and what not to be set up for a Henry alive in 2015 versus a Henry alive in 1915, so all of that is obviously still legitimate, but has he ever created a non-Dr. Henry Morgan persona that we've heard of?

[Netfoot]

...has he ever created a non-Dr. Henry Morgan persona that we've heard of?

 

I've been thinking about that as well.  His identities could use highly differentiated names, which would not hint at any connection to his previous identity.  Henry Morgan might become Pierre Chevalier. No obvious connection.  On the other hand, Henry Morgan might become Andrew Morgan.  This has the subtle advantage of explaining away the similarities between the current Mr. Morgan, and the image from a 100 year old newspaper:  distant blood relative.

 

However, it seems that Henry is always Henry

Edited March 6, 2015 by Netfoot