S01.E03: Nacho

[Bryce Lynch]

Since this is Vince Gilligan, I'm going with this theory, which, to me, is totally Occam's Razor.

Thanks for reminding me about that scene. Again, since this is Vince Gilligan, I can easily foresee part of the endgame being Mrs. Kettleman and Jimmy working together. She might even be a precursor to Walter White.

Precursor to Walter White? Pun intended? :)

She reminds me a bit early Skyler. Her hubby makes millions through criminal activity and she bosses him around.

It is interesting that like Skyler she seemed immune to Jimmy/Saul's fast talking charm. He was ready to sign the agreement with Jimmy, but she stopped him at the last second.

If Team Kettleman gets away with the embezzlement, I wonder if he will get them to launder the cash at the nail salon where his office is.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Bryce Lynch

[Ronin Jackson]

I think this is the trouble I am having with the show, that once again this seems to be a story of transformation of one person over time.  While yes, the path is different for Jimmy to Saul than Walt to Heisenberg, I still feel like I have already seen a story like that on Breaking Bad and I don't really care that much about again seeing the "transformation" story of Jimmy to Saul.  I already watched a version of that show and feel like it would be hard to top it. Personally I'd rather watch Saul be Saul and stories surrounding his other clients besides Walt.  That is what I expected of the show.  Going back in time is fine, but I don't really want the whole series to focus on how Jimmy becomes Saul from start to finish, because then we aren't going to see much Saul, who I think is much more fun to watch than Jimmy. 

 

I like the show OK, I think I am still adjusting to the show and what I expected, which was more Saul and less Jimmy.  Even if they are going to tell this story over time of the transformation, then I would almost prefer them jumping back and forth between Saul and Jimmy and comparing/contrasting them.    Again will still keep watching and I find it interesting, but I still find myself more underwhelmed by it and still feel it moves slow. 

 

But ratings are good, critics seem to like it....so what do I know? 

 

That's in interesting perspective.  The thing about the transformation of Walter White is, I believe it was a singularly unique thing as far as scripted television goes.  Not that I've seen enough scripted television to be an authority, but I've seen most of the major ones.  All characters evolve to some degree, but the thorough transformation that we saw with Walt is not common.  Tony Soprano was largely the same character he was at the end of the series as he was at the beginning... more paranoid, more willing to sacrifice loyalty, but it was nothing like Walt to Heisenberg.  Same with Vic Massey.  Don Draper has certainly been evolving but it's not a gradual and thorough transformation.  And it wasn't just Walt in Breaking Bad... it was Jesse and Skylar too.  I feel like that is the signature of this franchise in some ways.

 

I can understand wanting to spend more time with Saul, the unscrupulous schemer we knew from Breaking Bad, and the show will surely get him there.  I think it's going to be more rewarding when he does if we understand how he got there.  That might be the thing I'm most excited about discovering with this show.  

[Fisher King]

I can understand wanting to spend more time with Saul, the unscrupulous schemer we knew from Breaking Bad, and the show will surely get him there.  I think it's going to be more rewarding when he does if we understand how he got there.  That might be the thing I'm most excited about discovering with this show.

 

Right. Let's not get there so fast. I'm happy watching the transition from Jimmy to Saul, and I believe it's crucial to show those steps - or missteps - from bumbling con artist into a more polished one.

 

 

[Irlandesa]

My point is that he starts out as a sociopath ("Slippin Jimmy") and then thanks to his brother decides to reform.  He's not an innocent so he should be able to recognize others of his breed.  This story would play out more believably if he started out naive and then became corrupted.

 

What makes you say that "Slippin Jimmy" is a sociopath?  It sounds like he was a low level con man who went after relatively easy marks.  Depending on your unofficial definition, maybe that makes him a sociopath, but I'd need more evidence than that.  Even if he were, I can't recall anything that was said that told us he had experience working with violent drug criminals.  If that were the case, I doubt Chuck would have been able to spring him from jail so quickly. 

 

He has some knowledge but this is a new ballgame for him.

 

I can understand wanting to spend more time with Saul, the unscrupulous schemer we knew from Breaking Bad, and the show will surely get him there.  I think it's going to be more rewarding when he does if we understand how he got there.  That might be the thing I'm most excited about discovering with this show.  

Yeah.  And I still don't think the transformation from Jimmy to Saul is going to be huge.  Not on a Walter White level which is why I don't see myself comparing the evolution of the characters nor do I think that should be the focus of the show.  It will never hold up if we compare but I still think there's a very enjoyable story to tell of his earlier years because both Jimmy and Saul are interesting people.

[Sentient Meat]

What makes you say that "Slippin Jimmy" is a sociopath?  It sounds like he was a low level con man who went after relatively easy marks.  Depending on your unofficial definition, maybe that makes him a sociopath, but I'd need more evidence than that.  Even if he were, I can't recall anything that was said that told us he had experience working with violent drug criminals.  If that were the case, I doubt Chuck would have been able to spring him from jail so quickly. 

 

He has some knowledge but this is a new ballgame for him.

 

Yeah.  And I still don't think the transformation from Jimmy to Saul is going to be huge.  Not on a Walter White level which is why I don't see myself comparing the evolution of the characters nor do I think that should be the focus of the show.  It will never hold up if we compare but I still think there's a very enjoyable story to tell of his earlier years because both Jimmy and Saul are interesting people.

 

For me a sociopath isn't defined by the violence of his/her crimes but the motivations.  If you steal from someone that has wronged you, or makes money by wronging others then I personally don't have a problem with that person.  Slippin Jimmy made money by suing strangers that had never harmed him in the past, Omar from the Wire made money by robbing drug dealers.  Even though Omar was more violent, I think that his behavior was less sociopathic than a young man that goes around suing people under false pretenses.  YMMV

[TVFan17]

Okay, I'm going to have to go back and watch this episode again because I kept getting interrupted and/or distracted during it and I feel like I didn't really absorb what was happening, or that I missed something.

 

First of all, we didn't get real clarification as to why Jimmy was in jail, did we?   It had something to do with a sex crime and a sun roof, didn't it? 

 

So, this is where I started to get distracted and lost track of what was happening.  Jimmy made the anonymous (robot sex voice) phone call to the Kettlemans, to tell them they were being watched or whatever.  He also let it slip to Kim that they were in danger.  Am I correct so far?

 

Jimmy frantically tried to reach Nacho, leaving message after message.  Nacho ended up in jail... how?  I missed that part, I think.  I know that Nacho accused Jimmy of setting him up, and threatened him.  Then Jimmy was frantically searching for the Kettlemans, and found them camping, singing songs and holding on to a whole lot of cash.

 

Now what exactly happened?  Did Jimmy set Nacho up, and make it look like Nacho did..... what?  Kidnap them?  I'm not clear.   Who is guilty of what?   I'm confused!

 

In any case, I enjoyed seeing Mike being his good ol' crusty self.  I'm hoping for more of him and his back story (that led him to become the Mike of Breaking Bad), and more of Jimmy's eventual criminal clients.   I'm already getting a little tired of the whole con man shtick and non-stop yapping from Jimmy (because, as I've said in the past, Saul was never my favorite character on BB to begin with, so I was worried about a whole series revolving around him), and I'm starting to hope for more supporting characters to take over.  But I am still in it for the long haul, and I will stay with the show until the bitter end.

 

Also, the Chuck scene -- aside from the fact that I wondered what exactly Jimmy did to land himself in jail -- was dull.  I know that we will find out interesting stuff about Chuck's back story as time rolls on, and it will probably be well worth the wait, but right now -- for me -- he sucks the air out of every scene he is in. 

Edited February 18, 2015 by Sherry67

[Tim Thomason]

Okay, I'm going to have to go back and watch this episode again because I kept getting interrupted and/or distracted during it and I feel like I didn't really absorb what was happening, or that I missed something. First of all, we didn't get real clarification as to why Jimmy was in jail, did we?   It had something to do with a sex crime and a sun roof, didn't it?

 

No clarification. He was up against assault, property damage, and sex offense charges, and he was disputing the sex offense, calling it a simple "Chicago sunroof" (a term invented for the show). It's presumably connected to his career as a street-level con man.

 

 

 

So, this is where I started to get distracted and lost track of what was happening.  Jimmy made the anonymous (robot sex voice) phone call to the Kettlemans, to tell them they were being watched or whatever.  He also let it slip to Kim that they were in danger.  Am I correct so far?

 

Yes. He told Kim first, then called the Kettlemans.

 

 

 

Jimmy frantically tried to reach Nacho, leaving message after message.  Nacho ended up in jail... how?  I missed that part, I think.  I know that Nacho accused Jimmy of setting him up, and threatened him.  Then Jimmy was frantically searching for the Kettlemans, and found them camping, singing songs and holding on to a whole lot of cash.

 

Nacho's car had been spotted for two nights prior by a neighbor and his license plate was written down. Since Nacho wasn't guilty, he was probably easy to track down from that license plate. He had blood in his van from the skateboarders and the APD had him arrested and were beginning to build a case and start looking for accomplices and the Kettlemans whereabouts.

 

 

 

Now what exactly happened?  Did Jimmy set Nacho up, and make it look like Nacho did..... what?  Kidnap them?  I'm not clear.   Who is guilty of what?   I'm confused!

 

No. Jimmy didn't do anything except make some phone calls (to Kim drunkenly saying that the Kettlemans were in danger, to the Kettlemans warning them that they were in danger, and then to Nacho trying to smoothe things over). Jimmy thought that Nacho was guilty up until the point that he was face-to-face with him and being accused of setting him up. He didn't figure out that the Kettlemans had staged their own kidnapping until he was allowed to visit their home and go over the crime scene.

 

Nacho was being accused of kidnapping, and perhaps worse, based on the blood in his van and the observation that he had been parked outside their home for two nights.

 

I think the Kettlemans planned to stay up in the mountains for a few days or weeks (maybe getting supplies from their home in the meanwhile), and would either hike their way out of the country or return to civilization with a fake story about their kidnapping. If Jimmy didn't show up, they would eventually get arrested by the FBI or whoever and the whole case comes crumbling down.

 

Now that our protagonist is involved, they might get a chance to get away scot-free. Either way, I think Jimmy is just about to get a substantial "finders' fee".

Edited February 18, 2015 by Tim Thomason

[shapeshifter]

Precursor to Walter White? Pun intended? :)

Totally. :D

She reminds me a bit early Skyler. Her hubby makes millions through criminal activity and she bosses him around.

It is interesting that like Skyler she seemed immune to Jimmy/Saul's fast talking charm. He was ready to sign the agreement with Jimmy, but she stopped him at the last second.

If Team Kettleman gets away with the embezzlement, I wonder if he will get them to launder the cash at the nail salon where his office is.

Good points all around. So maybe Mr. Kettleman is the precursor and Mrs. Kettleman is the catalyst. ;>)

Sorry. I couldn't resist. But, hey, if the beaker fits...?

Okay. I'll stop now.

Edited February 18, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Dev F]

I can understand if he were a naive, bookish kid that gradually became Saul that this difference would make sense, but it doesn't make sense that Jimmy would lose his street smarts when he became a law student, then regain them when he started to become Saul.

 

Is it that he's lost his street smarts, though, or that he's being pushed into areas where his traditional street smarts don't apply?

 

Jimmy's backstory isn't that he was some criminal mastermind; he was Slippin' Jimmy, a freewheeling sleazebag who staged a few accidents every winter so he wouldn't have to work the rest of the year. He's good at playing a sad-sack victim of circumstance so that people will pay him not to sue them, or so his mom will send his brother to get him out of lockup. And even in the course of these first few episodes, we see that he's actually pretty good at it. He manages to talk Tuco into letting him go a couple different times with relatively little trouble.

 

The trouble comes when he tries to break out of his particular criminal niche. Because his idiot accomplices confess to Tuco that he's not just a victim of their stupidity; he's the guy who tried to mastermind their whole scam. Because he decides it's not enough to just talk his own way out of trouble; he wants to save the idiots' lives too.

 

And then in this episode, Jimmy would've been perfectly fine if he'd done what sleazy lowlifes are supposed to do -- just shut the fuck up and let some people rob some people. Once again, it's his ambition to be more than a craven grifter that trips him up; he says he's no hero, but he can't leave the Kettlemans at Nacho's mercy. And even so, his first instinct is to warn them in the most cowardly and underhanded way possible, and it's only when his spineless attempts fail spectacularly that he's forced to resort to more and more overt methods, until he's actually forced to do something almost heroic against his better judgment.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier episode thread, it's sort like Breaking Good: whereas Walter White's story was about an upstanding citizen who discovers the disastrous unintended consequences of doing something a little bit evil for once, Jimmy McGill's is (at least for now) about a pathetic lowlife who discovers how disastrous it can be when he tries something decent for a change.

[Nashville]

Slippin Jimmy made money by suing strangers that had never harmed him in the past, Omar from the Wire made money by robbing drug dealers.  Even though Omar was more violent, I think that his behavior was less sociopathic than a young man that goes around suing people under false pretenses.  YMMV

"Slippin' Jimmy" never sued anybody. That was the scam Jimmy ran as a teen (18, IIRC) - taking a dive on somebody's hood, and scamming them out of whatever cash me could get with the threat of a lawsuit. This episode's Chuck-and-Jimmy flashback was a perfect illustration of Jimmy in his pre-lawyer still-a-con-man days.

Also - unless I'm very much mistaken, that was Chuck's ultimatum to Jimmy for assistance: to quit the shuck-and-jive shit, go to law school, and become a lawyer - where Chuck could pull Jimmy into business with him and (hopefully) keep an eye on him.

P. S.: Jimmy - nothing to worry about from Pa Kettle, but I wouldn't turn my back on Ma Kettle if I were you. If she can't buy you off, her Plan B might involve a shallow grave in the woods....

[millennium]

I'm not feeling it.

 

For one thing, "Heeere's Johnny" has been done to death on other shows.   It landed like a really tired cliche.

 

I thought the whole episode dragged.  I got fidgety as he was tramping through the desert.   Obviously he was going to find them there.    Why prolong it.

 

And come on.   A whole family appears to be abducted but nobody thought to check the desert behind their house?   The police would have had search parties fanning out across the terrain in no time.

 

Didn't like the dumb detectives either.   The police in Breaking Bad were never incompetent morons.  

 

This was the first episode where I got a whiff of this series isn't going to make it.

[Nashville]

I'm not feeling it.

 And come on.   A whole family appears to be abducted but nobody thought to check the desert behind their house?   The police would have had search parties fanning out across the terrain in no time.

 

Not when the police already thought they (a) knew what had happened and (b) had the responsible party in custody.

Didn't like the dumb detectives either.   The police in Breaking Bad were never incompetent morons.  

 

Police detectives are people, not supermen - and like most people, they aren't generally predisposed toward continuing the search for their car keys when they already have the keys in hand. Or think they do.

[DrSpaceman]

That's in interesting perspective.  The thing about the transformation of Walter White is, I believe it was a singularly unique thing as far as scripted television goes.  Not that I've seen enough scripted television to be an authority, but I've seen most of the major ones.  All characters evolve to some degree, but the thorough transformation that we saw with Walt is not common.  Tony Soprano was largely the same character he was at the end of the series as he was at the beginning... more paranoid, more willing to sacrifice loyalty, but it was nothing like Walt to Heisenberg.  Same with Vic Massey.  Don Draper has certainly been evolving but it's not a gradual and thorough transformation.  And it wasn't just Walt in Breaking Bad... it was Jesse and Skylar too.  I feel like that is the signature of this franchise in some ways.

 

I can understand wanting to spend more time with Saul, the unscrupulous schemer we knew from Breaking Bad, and the show will surely get him there.  I think it's going to be more rewarding when he does if we understand how he got there.  That might be the thing I'm most excited about discovering with this show.  

 

 

Sure, all TV shows and stories in a sense are stories of change and transformation over time, how people evolve and develop. 

 

The difference here is, we know where this one ends.  We know the end game for Jimmy.   There is no mystery where this one ends. And I think many fans of Breaking Bad, or at least myself, were tuning in to this show to see Saul.  If we aren't being given much of Saul from Breaking Bad, it detracts from why I was watching this show in the first place. 

 

If this is how they wanted the show to be, I'd prefer they use the device of telling stories of "Saul" and using flashbacks to show his background of "Jimmy", or how he was before.   I don't mind the background story.  I like it.  I just don't want it to be the primary or sole story we are seeing, which is how its been so far and where this seems to be headed based on the first 3 epsidoes. 

[teddysmom]

so how did Mr. K get the money out of the county bank account and into cash?

 

Over time.  You don't take $1.6 million all at once.  You take a little at a time.  You set up a bank account for yourself with a name similar to what is on checks coming in to the County, and you skim cash paid in fees at the offices, marriage licenses, recording legal documents, etc.  If they're small, a lot of people pay them in cash and then get reimbursed by their employer.  The parking lot where Mike works, all the cash from that goes to the County, and a lot of it probably ended up in that duffel bag. 

[Irlandesa]

For one thing, "Heeere's Johnny" has been done to death on other shows.   It landed like a really tired cliche.

I think that's the point, especially at the end of the episode.  In many ways, Saul does things that are tired cliches. It's part of who he is.  And that's what the final "Here's Johnny" completely bombed.  He scared the kids. 

 

Didn't like the dumb detectives either.   The police in Breaking Bad were never incompetent morons. 

 

As has been pointed out, they thought they had their man.  And back in early Breaking Bad, Hank kind of came off like a buffoon so I don't know if we all believed in his competence at that point.

[jnymph]

This episode definitely launched my love. 

 

I love this show.  I love Jimmy/Saul.  I love the writing.  I love the cinematograpy. 

 

Did I mention I love this show?   

 

Just because it bears repeating ... "Nacho is not cho man!" 

I think that's the point, especially at the end of the episode.  In many ways, Saul does things that are tired cliches. It's part of who he is.  And that's what the final "Here's Johnny" completely bombed.  He scared the kids. 

 

As has been pointed out, they thought they had their man.  And back in early Breaking Bad, Hank kind of came off like a buffoon so I don't know if we all believed in his competence at that point.

Thank you, Irlandesa !   Jimmy's all about the clichés!  it's what he does and that's why I love him.  Damnit.

[teddysmom]

I can understand wanting to spend more time with Saul, the unscrupulous schemer we knew from Breaking Bad, and the show will surely get him there.  I think it's going to be more rewarding when he does if we understand how he got there.  That might be the thing I'm most excited about discovering with this show.

Right. Let's not get there so fast. I'm happy watching the transition from Jimmy to Saul, and I believe it's crucial to show those steps - or missteps - from bumbling con artist into a more polished one.

 

Vince explains in the podcast that he wants the transition to take place over time, so that we're intrigued enough to come back.  Jimmy's evolution into Saul is this:  "what problem does Jimmy have that becoming Saul solves".  

 

The Chuck situation will be explained, and other story lines will come up and be explained, but if he tells us everything right off the bat, why would we keep watching?  

 

Personally I like seeing how a person starts off as one thing and becomes the person they were meant to be.  Heisenberg was simmering just below the surface with Walter, he wasn't always the milquetoast chemistry teacher, as evidenced in the flashbacks with him and Gretchen working out chemical make up of the human body, and when he and Skyler looked at their house the first time.  He was much more confident and cocky back then.  The frustration he felt at where his life had ended up, being bossed around by Bogdan at the carwash, the way Hank treated him, leaving Grey Matter and becoming a chemistry teacher,  life smacking him upside the head with cancer, set loose the  monster that became Heisenberg. 

This episode definitely launched my love.

I love this show.  I love Jimmy/Saul.  I love the writing.  I love the cinematograpy.

Did I mention I love this show?

 

Are you listening to the podcasts?  If not, please do. 

[Ohwell]

I'm not feeling it.

I'm trying.  I'm trying really hard.  My problem is, while I liked Saul/Bob Odenkirk in BB, I'm having a hard time warming up to Jimmy and I don't think he's compelling or interesting enough to carry a series on his own.  I'll stick with it to the end of the season but it remains to be seen if I'll be around for the next season--if there is a next one.

[Bryce Lynch]

I'm trying.  I'm trying really hard.  My problem is, while I liked Saul/Bob Odenkirk in BB, I'm having a hard time warming up to Jimmy and I don't think he's compelling or interesting enough to carry a series on his own.  I'll stick with it to the end of the season but it remains to be seen if I'll be around for the next season--if there is a next one.

I think the best way to handle Jimmy/Saul as the lead character would be sort of the way Jerry was handled on "Seinfeld".  I believe he described himself as sort of the ringmaster of the circus.  While Jimmy is an interesting enough character to build a story line around, I think what can, and hopefully will, put it over the top will be all the clients, cartel members, parking lot attendants, etc. he ends up dealing with, their stories, and Saul's reactions (legal and illegal strategies and wisecracks, movie references, colorful metaphors, etc.) to them.

[Fisher King]

A second season has been confirmed - with more episodes.

[Ohwell]

I think what can, and hopefully will, put it over the top will be all the clients, cartel members, parking lot attendants, etc. he ends up dealing with, their stories, and Saul's reactions (legal and illegal strategies and wisecracks, movie references, colorful metaphors, etc.) to them.

I am looking forward to seeing other characters.  I just hope the plots aren't stupid because I'm already getting that vibe from the Kettlemans storyline.  However, if they break bad....

Edited February 18, 2015 by Ohwell

[ghoulina]

What makes you say that "Slippin Jimmy" is a sociopath?  It sounds like he was a low level con man who went after relatively easy marks.  Depending on your unofficial definition, maybe that makes him a sociopath, but I'd need more evidence than that.  Even if he were, I can't recall anything that was said that told us he had experience working with violent drug criminals.  If that were the case, I doubt Chuck would have been able to spring him from jail so quickly

 

Yea, I mean, I know we have limited info on his past at this point, but I don't see young Jimmy as a sociopath. I agree with your estimation of him as a "low level con man". He was indeed conning people who were easy to manipulate. The criminal world he's dancing on the edge of now is a whole new ball of wax. I have no trouble believing he would fumble some here. But I still think we can see, such as in the desert scene, that natural talent he was for talking to people and convincing them of what he's trying to sell. I think he's always had that in him, but he's going to need practice to become as smooth with the more unsavory types as he was with little old ladies whose cars he crashed into. 

 

I think that's the point, especially at the end of the episode.  In many ways, Saul does things that are tired cliches. It's part of who he is.  And that's what the final "Here's Johnny" completely bombed.  He scared the kids.

 

Absolutely. This is, what? At least the third movie quote he's made in three episodes? That's clearly part of his schtick. He's a total cheeseball and I love it. 

[Samx]

I assumed this show would be more involved with Saul Goodman BUT I absolutely love that we are getting to see how Jimmy evolves into Saul. It makes complete sense that Jimmy, at this point, is still finding his footing in the legal (and criminal) world. I'm not sure how far past the bar exam Jimmy is at this point but it takes years for most lawyers (even "criminal" lawyers) to find their footing and fine tune their games. The montage (I watched the last 2 eps back to back so can't remember if it's in Nacho - sorry) we see of Jimmy getting better at working the courthouse, his clients and the prosecutor was really effective for me in showing his progress. Although we saw shades of Saul in the desert negotiation, the wheels really started turning for me when Jimmy figures out the Kettlemans kidnapped themselves. It didn't seem like he was reaching but that he really did believe that's what happened, and it shows how he's starting to think more like a "criminal" (to me anyway). 

 

I also like that we see that Jimmy has a conscience (as shown by his warning to Kim), which we didn't get to see much in Breaking Bad. Just because we know the end game doesn't mean we can't enjoy a hell of a ride getting there. This episode really got me psyched to see what happens to Jimmy next. 

Edited February 18, 2015 by Samx

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

 

No clarification. He was up against assault, property damage, and sex offense charges, and he was disputing the sex offense, calling it a simple "Chicago sunroof" (a term invented for the show). It's presumably connected to his career as a street-level con man.

I went on Urban Dictionary and there were other definitions for Chicago Sunroof, things that were certainly around before this show (so I've heard from my son-in-law lol)

 

I don't really see Jimmy as a con-man, at least at this point. That requires motivation and intent. I see him as one of those guys who "stuff just happens to". He doesn't think through the consequences of what he's doing too well. 

[Bryce Lynch]

I went on Urban Dictionary and there were other definitions for Chicago Sunroof, things that were certainly around before this show (so I've heard from my son-in-law lol)

 

I don't really see Jimmy as a con-man, at least at this point. That requires motivation and intent. I see him as one of those guys who "stuff just happens to". He doesn't think through the consequences of what he's doing too well. 

Not a con man?  He hired 2 con men skateboarders to pull an auto accident con game on a potential client, to try to get her business. Maybe Jimmy is trying to become  a legitimate lawyer, but he definitely still has plenty of con man in him.

[ElsieH]

Why did those cops chase Jimmy down and cuff him? And why wouldn't someone have just called him when Nacho was arrested and asking for him?

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Why did those cops chase Jimmy down and cuff him? And why wouldn't someone have just called him when Nacho was arrested and asking for him?

They were looking for the person that had been leaving Nacho suspicious messages, potentially his partner in the apparent crime. They weren't about to let Nacho have his lawyer any sooner than absolutely necessary.

[carrps]

For me a sociopath isn't defined by the violence of his/her crimes but the motivations.  If you steal from someone that has wronged you, or makes money by wronging others then I personally don't have a problem with that person.  Slippin Jimmy made money by suing strangers that had never harmed him in the past, Omar from the Wire made money by robbing drug dealers.  Even though Omar was more violent, I think that his behavior was less sociopathic than a young man that goes around suing people under false pretenses.  YMMV

Yeah, MMV. When I think sociopath I think Henry the Serial Killer. I don't consider a simple slip-n-fall conman anywhere near the sociopath end of the dial.

 

Absolutely. This is, what? At least the third movie quote he's made in three episodes? That's clearly part of his schtick. He's a total cheeseball and I love it. 

"Network" "All That Jazz" and now "The Shining." Definitely part of his corny schtick.

[Umbelina]

I'm not feeling it.

 

For one thing, "Heeere's Johnny" has been done to death on other shows.   It landed like a really tired cliche.

 

I thought the whole episode dragged.  I got fidgety as he was tramping through the desert.   Obviously he was going to find them there.    Why prolong it.

 

And come on.   A whole family appears to be abducted but nobody thought to check the desert behind their house?   The police would have had search parties fanning out across the terrain in no time.

 

Didn't like the dumb detectives either.   The police in Breaking Bad were never incompetent morons.  

 

This was the first episode where I got a whiff of this series isn't going to make it.

Then again, Elizabeth Smart was in the woods not far from her house, and no one found her, even with massive search parties.  They may have searched for bodies, but the police were so sure of the "kidnapped" or "dead" story, they probably could have stumbled on the tent of happy family campers and not even bothered.

 

I think the "Here's Johnny!" thing worked because they'd already established Jimmy's love of movies, and stealing lines from them in previous episodes.  It's one of his things.

 

I had the opposite reaction, I felt like it was a solid episode.

 

I STILL don't like the brother story though, it's doing nothing for me.  Also, I was a bit confused with the whole Mike thing.  It's time to become "Saul" though, and to define Mike's life more. 

[Bannon]

I really think they need to have Chuck written out fairly soon,  in a way that drives Jimmy to adopt his new identity, and makes the new Saul a bit darker character, of the type that would eventually use the term "rabid dog" when discussing with Waller White how Jesse Pinkman might be handled. Certainly it will be done by the end of season 1; is McKean on the credits for every episode?

Edited February 18, 2015 by Bannon

[Ronin Jackson]

This was the first episode where I got a whiff of this series isn't going to make it.

 

Well you are of course entitled to an opinion and not like the show, but if "isn't going to make it" implies being cancelled, a few things of note: It's already been renewed for a second season.  After three episodes it's the second highest rated show on cable after The Walking Dead (this is after the switch to the Monday time slot), it has a 100% positive review rating on Rotten Tomatoes and a 91% positive review rating from the audience.  In this case your opinion of the show probably isn't indicative of its long term viability.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[rubyred]

What's interesting to me is seeing how, in increments, Jimmy becomes the criminal lawyer Jesse referred to. As he's hustling in the County Courthouse for his $700/case PD clients, he's building a reputation. He doesn't coast through, we've seen him chasing down the ADAs or DAs or whatever they are to get the best deal for his clients. He puts in the work....for bad guys. That is going to get around.

 

I think that too is something that Mike appreciated once he heard Jimmy's theory about the Kettleman's disappearance and heard him defending Nacho so vociferously. Of course he was partly doing it out of fear, but he also was right. And Mike decided not to press charges because even though he's hapless and rude ("screw you, geezer!) and desperate in a bad suit, Jimmy really tries.

[shapeshifter]

Yeah, MMV. When I think sociopath I think Henry the Serial Killer. I don't consider a simple slip-n-fall conman anywhere near the sociopath end of the dial....

While serial killer may be the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "sociopath," I've met master manipulators who are sociopathic but don't kill people. Still, I wouldn't call Saul sociopathic because he seems to have empathy and a conscience.

Anyway, "sociopath" is not a scientific term. The American Psychological Association's thesaurus recommends to instead use the term "Antisocial Personality Disorder" which it defines as: "Personality disorder characterized by conflict with others, low frustration tolerance, inadequate conscience development, and rejection of authority and discipline." Maybe more like Tuco?

Still, using "sociopath" the way we bandy it about here in forum-land, Jimmy/Saul is not socipathic to me. Milage does vary.

[millennium]

Well you are of course entitled to an opinion and not like the show, but if "isn't going to make it" implies being cancelled, a few things of note: It's already been renewed for a second season.  After three episodes it's the second highest rated show on cable after The Walking Dead (this is after the switch to the Monday time slot), it has a 100% positive review rating on Rotten Tomatoes and a 91% positive review rating from the audience.  In this case your opinion of the show probably isn't indicative of its long term viability.

 

We'll see.  :)

 

For the record, I never said I don't like the show.  On the contrary, I have posted positive comments about the previous episodes even when others were whining about it (first episode thread, for example).

 

I just thought this episode sucked.   Big time.

 

It doesn't get a pass from me just because it contains 50% more Mike or whatever.    I thought the action dragged, the Kettlemans were like a cliche from a Saturday Night Live sketch, there was no chemistry at all between Saul and the blonde (a prior relationship between them seems unlikely although that's what the show seems to be hinting at), it contained not one but two overly drawn-out scenes of Saul agonizing at a pay phone, and despite being called "Nacho," it contained very little Nacho.

Edited February 18, 2015 by millennium

[Bryce Lynch]

So, do we all agree that "Team Kettleman" has the 2nd most annoying answering machine message in TV history, trailing only George Constanza's "Believe it or not, George isn't at home..." song?

[TVFan17]

We'll see.  :)

 

For the record, I never said I don't like the show.  On the contrary, I have posted positive comments about the previous episodes even when others were whining about it (first episode thread, for example).

 

I just thought this episode sucked.   Big time.

 

It doesn't get a pass from me just because it contains 50% more Mike or whatever.    I thought the action dragged, the Kettlemans were like a cliche from a Saturday Night Live sketch, there was no chemistry at all between Saul and the blonde (a prior relationship between them seems unlikely although that's what the show seems to be hinting at), it contained not one but two overly drawn-out scenes of Saul agonizing at a pay phone, and despite being called "Nacho," it contained very little Nacho.

 

Who was whining?  If, by "whining," you mean expressing opinions -- which is what we're all doing here, whether they are differing opinions or otherwise -- then, yes, we're all whining (including you ;-) ).

 

And, by the way, I agree with most of your points about this episode!  I am sticking with the show until the end, but it has not completely won me over yet.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Sherry67

[Bannon]

I always thought BB's recurring theme, demonstrated by nearly (Saul being an exception) all the characters, was the cost inflicted by misplaced pride. I don't think a dominant recurring theme is required for a  show to be good, or even great, but I'm interested in seeing whether the writers of this show take a similar approach. I'm not seeing it yet, but it is very early, of course. Could remorse ever be a primary motivation for Jimmy/Saul? Is that where the Chuck character is leading?

Edited February 18, 2015 by Bannon

[TVFan17]

No clarification. He was up against assault, property damage, and sex offense charges, and he was disputing the sex offense, calling it a simple "Chicago sunroof" (a term invented for the show). It's presumably connected to his career as a street-level con man.

 

 

 

 

Yes. He told Kim first, then called the Kettlemans.

 

 

 

 

Nacho's car had been spotted for two nights prior by a neighbor and his license plate was written down. Since Nacho wasn't guilty, he was probably easy to track down from that license plate. He had blood in his van from the skateboarders and the APD had him arrested and were beginning to build a case and start looking for accomplices and the Kettlemans whereabouts.

 

 

 

 

No. Jimmy didn't do anything except make some phone calls (to Kim drunkenly saying that the Kettlemans were in danger, to the Kettlemans warning them that they were in danger, and then to Nacho trying to smoothe things over). Jimmy thought that Nacho was guilty up until the point that he was face-to-face with him and being accused of setting him up. He didn't figure out that the Kettlemans had staged their own kidnapping until he was allowed to visit their home and go over the crime scene.

 

Nacho was being accused of kidnapping, and perhaps worse, based on the blood in his van and the observation that he had been parked outside their home for two nights.

 

I think the Kettlemans planned to stay up in the mountains for a few days or weeks (maybe getting supplies from their home in the meanwhile), and would either hike their way out of the country or return to civilization with a fake story about their kidnapping. If Jimmy didn't show up, they would eventually get arrested by the FBI or whoever and the whole case comes crumbling down.

 

Now that our protagonist is involved, they might get a chance to get away scot-free. Either way, I think Jimmy is just about to get a substantial "finders' fee".

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain it for me.  I fully intend to go back and watch the episode again, and without distractions this time, but I felt like there were some blanks that needed to be filled in and you did that for me. Now it makes a bit more sense.  I agree -- I think Jimmy is about to get a nice finders' fee, indeed!

 

Why do I have a strange feeling that Kim will end up eventually getting killed in a future episode?  I don't know why I think that, but something tells me she won't be around for the whole series (however long it lasts).

[Ronin Jackson]

We'll see.  :)

 

 

We will... all I know is, if my opinion mattered, most of the top rated shows on TV would be on the cutting block. :)

[Bannon]

BB really didn't win me over really quickly, for what it is worth. I mean, it was obviously well acted from the start, but it took a while for me to get interested in the life of Walter White.

[TVFan17]

BB really didn't win me over really quickly, for what it is worth. I mean, it was obviously well acted from the start, but it took a while for me to get interested in the life of Walter White.

 

Same here.  I don't know exactly when it clicked for me, but it did (thankfully!).  I think it may have been the "Negro y Azul" episode, or maybe "Peekaboo."   I remember watching the first several episodes of Season 1 and not being all that invested in what happened.  I began to wonder if the series would hold my attention and live up to all of the acclaim it had received. 

 

So I skipped ahead and watched random, picked-out-of-a-hat episodes from future seasons, just to see if it got any more interesting for me.  When I saw those episodes from Season 2, I realized I wanted to see more.  I watched a few arbitrary episodes from Season 3.  I ended up at "Box Cutter" in Season 4.  Gus Fring terrified me, but I wanted to go back and see how he was introduced in BB (which I had missed).  I ended up going back to the very beginning of Season 1 and starting from scratch, episode by episode (some of them multiple times) and I was hooked for life!!

 

BCS has already got me as a loyal viewer to the end, but I am still waiting to be fully hooked and reeled in!  I want to once again feel the sweet bliss of being addicted to an amazing series.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Sherry67

[ghoulina]

So, do we all agree that "Team Kettleman" has the 2nd most annoying answering machine message in TV history, trailing only George Constanza's "Believe it or not, George isn't at home..." song?

 

No, I do not agree with this at all. I would listen to George's message any day over the Kettleman's! LOL

[Bryce Lynch]

No, I do not agree with this at all. I would listen to George's message any day over the Kettleman's! LOL

Well then, enjoy!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ria37d9mInY

[Nashville]

This episode definitely launched my love. 

 

I love this show.  I love Jimmy/Saul.  I love the writing.  I love the cinematograpy. 

 

Did I mention I love this show?   

 

My wife, after this episode:

"I was already ready to give up on it - until this."

To be fair, she didn't initially like BB either - but I kept watching it, and she got sucked in. :)

[ElsieH]

I remember making one of my friends watch the first two episodes of BB, and it dang near broke my heart when she didn't "get" it. I was so sad for her that she wouldn't get to experience the masterpiece, even though I did tell her it was a little slow in the beginning.That's why I'm not at all worried about this one, I think it will pick up speed the same way, and I for one, can't wait.

Edited February 18, 2015 by ElsieH

[Ottis]

Not on a Walter White level which is why I don't see myself comparing the evolution of the characters nor do I think that should be the focus of the show.  It will never hold up if we compare but I still think there's a very enjoyable story to tell of his earlier years because both Jimmy and Saul are interesting people.

 

 

I think BCS is depndent on BB to be successful. Jimmy/Saul is an interesting character, but maybe not interesting enough on his own. What *is* interesting is Jimmy/Saul running into Tuco, and Mike, during events that occurred before Walter White knew he had cancer. And introducing characters like Nacho, who I am sure will play out to be a unique kind of criminal, like a Gus Fring. If they keep that up, I'll keep watching. Because while a breaking bad Saul alone is so-so, watching it happen in the BB universe keeps my attention. I like seeing how characters we come to know later in BB got there, and what Saul's role was in all of it. And I do enjoy the overall style of both shows, even if I find it slow from time to time. The scene where Jimmy comes back to save the lives of the redheads by negotiating with Tuco was hilarious.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Ottis

[LoneHaranguer]

 

That's why I'm not at all worried about this one, I think it will pick up speed the same way, and I for one, can't wait.

I don't think BB ever solved its pacing issues, and it looks like BCS is headed the same way. It's a consequence of bending the story such that each episode ends at a compelling point to make viewers want to tune in again next week. Sometimes you're just not going to have the content (although the BB writers were better than most at cooking up filler).

Edited February 18, 2015 by LoneHaranguer

[Lonesome Rhodes]

 

I thought the action dragged, the Kettlemans were like a cliche from a Saturday Night Live sketch

If this is anywhere near the show I think it is, the wife is going to be a mini-Heisenberg her ownself.  We've seen flashes.

 

How big a piece of Jimmy's motivation was the hopes of finding the cash with them?  Or, was this something that he hadn't considered and just happily fell into his lap?  My take is that he had the passing thought, but he was hell bent on finding them to save his butt. 

[Irlandesa]

I think BCS is depndent on BB to be successful. Jimmy/Saul is an interesting character, but maybe not interesting enough on his own. What *is* interesting is Jimmy/Saul running into Tuco, and Mike, during events that occurred before Walter White knew he had cancer. And introducing characters like Nacho, who I am sure will play out to be a unique kind of criminal, like a Gus Fring. If they keep that up, I'll keep watching. Because while a breaking bad Saul alone is so-so, watching it happen in the BB universe keeps my attention. I like seeing how characters we come to know later in BB got there, and what Saul's role was in all of it. And I do enjoy the overall style of both shows, even if I find it slow from time to time. The scene where Jimmy comes back to save the lives of the redheads by negotiating with Tuco was hilarious.

But I don't think someone who hasn't seen Breaking Bad has to see Breaking Bad in order to appreciate this show. Telling someone they have to see the show to appreciate BCS is akin to telling them they're watching the show wrong.    That was my point.  If someone, who hasn't seen BB, likes the show then it's obviously enough of a show on its own to survive.  It may be an appreciation different from those of us who loved Breaking Bad but it doesn't mean they have to change their approach to the show.  In fact, I really would love to hear from people who watch the prequel first and follow it up with BB.

 

Just to be clear, I like seeing Mike because Mike being part of Saul's past makes sense.  And I hope to see Gus because Mike also eventually worked for him so his presence would make sense. Throwing in someone like Jessie Pinkman's dad, or even Jesse Pinkman himself, in a prequel portion, would feel like pandering so I hope to not see them unless the show goes back to Nebraska-time.  

[queenanne]

Sure, all TV shows and stories in a sense are stories of change and transformation over time, how people evolve and develop. 

 

The difference here is, we know where this one ends.  We know the end game for Jimmy.   There is no mystery where this one ends. And I think many fans of Breaking Bad, or at least myself, were tuning in to this show to see Saul.  If we aren't being given much of Saul from Breaking Bad, it detracts from why I was watching this show in the first place.

 

I disagree - I think we know the middle of Jimmy/Saul.  We don't know "the end".  (Or maybe we do if there've been BTS assurances that we're never getting farther than black-and-white Cinnabon Saul, in which case I will withdraw the objection.)  Something like Bates Motel, now there we know the end, and I'm still not sold on watching that all the way through, because I know how the characters of Norma and Norman end their lives.  In light of that situation I can see someone deciding that the prequel show is just pointless wheel-spinning and why would I care what happens.

 

Also in the too-many-to-count sweepstakes, an aside to say that I loathed BrBa because I loathed Jesse.  In fact, I slogged through the entire first 4 episodes on disc, complaining bitterly at the friend who insisted that this was the best show on television that I was going to love.  Finally, after complete abandonment the first time around I listened to him telling me I had to continue watching, and picked it back up at the fifth episode.  I still only tolerated Jesse until about midpoint second season, but kept getting inexorably more invested in the action weekly anyways.  So there's definitely room for love to grow for the lukewarm in the Vince Gilligan universe.

Edited February 19, 2015 by queenanne