S05.E09: What Happened, And What's Going On

[Timetoread]

Half fish, half man...Abraham!

Oooo! Who knew? It was foreshadowing!

Did you ever hear the Mermaid Song by Bobby Bare?

Maybe Michonne's heart belonged to Andrea.

What makes you think that?

[kikismom]

It is until a more appropriate female is added to the cast. THEN it will be time to move on and heal and let love in and blah blah blah. I'm sure the "precious" will fly off his finger of its own accord so that Rick can do the nasty guilt free. A woman like Michonne can only be a friend.

I remain convinced it's more about something I said a long time ago; basically it's more about balls.

Rick doesn't want to be the "Glenn"---the guy whose girlfriend is tougher.

 

I had posted that a lot of men can respect and admire a strong women but they can't always feel sexually toward her. Rick's one main relationship was with Miss Domestic Goddess and Helpless Damsel In Distress Lori. Some guys only find themselves able to get it going with a woman who doesn't threaten their masculinity (even if she isn't trying to; if the man just perceives her abilities as making him less confident.)

 

I don't know if that is the case, or if so, if it has changed with other lessons learned in the last couple years. But I do notice that on this show, no couples are equals.

One partner always is seen as a dominant leader type and one is seen as the milder follower type.

 

Even when Andrea was with the Governor---and Andrea was a strong personality---I noticed that she felt she was appreciated for her strength until she learned a truth on the day that Rick and Brillip met (Arrow On The Doorstep). Both guys are facing each other across the table, but when she stands at the end and begins to speak? whoops run along now girlie this is men's business. She had been asked by both men to broker that meeting, but as soon as it started she was blown off by Brillip and Rick. In a dick-waving contest, a guy can't be seen as taking advice from someone in panties.

[Madding crowd]

This is the second death that didn't feel natural to me. I didn't believe Beth would just stab Dawn with the world's smallest scissor, and I don't believe Tyrese would be so transfixed by seeing photographs of twins, that he would ignore a grunting zombie. He also had the strangest look on his face, almost like he couldn't believe what he was seeing. I felt sad, but it also made no sense. It also made no sense that they had Rick radio Carol to say they would need to cauterize the wound. Wouldn't he realize that something needed to cut off the blood flow immediately? Maybe they tied off the artery, but it sure didn't seem like it. 

 

I agree they need to find somewhere. I having been saying for awhile that an apartment building, hospital or gated community would work for awhile. Of course, they would need to clear the space and secure supplied, but if they were on a second or third floor, they could block the staircase and stand guard. They also might have access to beds, clothing, and even some light entertainment like books, games or cards. If nothing else, they all need a short rest to regroup.

 

I never minded Tyrese and his gentler ways. I think on the show and in real life, different types of people are wanted and needed. I don't want to watch a bunch of soulless killing machines, but I don't want to just see a bunch of people who can't survive either. I don't think Tyrese was useless though, and I would rather lose Eugene, Abraham or Father Gabriel. 

 

As far as killing walkers, I think you have to do what is needed,  (kill any that are in your way or a danger to you or your group), but I wouldn't go looking for more to kill. There is always the chance something could wrong and you could get bit. There are still too many of them to take any chances. 

[Pete Martell]

I remain convinced it's more about something I said a long time ago; basically it's more about balls.

Rick doesn't want to be the "Glenn"---the guy whose girlfriend is tougher.

 

I had posted that a lot of men can respect and admire a strong women but they can't always feel sexually toward her. Rick's one main relationship was with Miss Domestic Goddess and Helpless Damsel In Distress Lori. Some guys only find themselves able to get it going with a woman who doesn't threaten their masculinity (even if she isn't trying to; if the man just perceives her abilities as making him less confident.)

 

I never got the impression that he saw Lori this way. Rick's very first scene in the show involved him talking about how Lori had belittled him in front of their son. The Rick we saw there wasn't concerned about his masculinity. When Rick reunited with Lori and Carl, he tried to include Lori in decisions and ask her opinion, while she told him she'd support him. 

 

If anything, Lori becoming increasingly passive and passive-aggressive seemed to weaken their marriage further.

 

I'm also not sure if Rick sees Maggie as being tougher than Glenn.

 

We haven't seen Rick feel sexual attraction toward anyone since Lori. I think he just suppresses that part of himself because they don't have time for it, and because he feels deep shame and guilt for Lori's death. 

 

I think if he ever gets with a woman, it won't be Michonne, but that's not because he's threatened by her - I'd say it's because TPTB are terrified of the backlash. 

[AngelaHunter]

Hey, some of us are trying to forget that particular trauma!

 

I had forgotten it. Until now.:(

 

I do like the idea of Rick and Michonne, though - I see the chemistry that others do.

 

I guess I'm the only one who sees no chemistry between any two people on this show. I don't see it with Rick/Michonne, and see absolutely zero between Daryl/Caryl. Those two could be brother and sister. I also can't see, and never did see, one bit of chemistry, spark, heat - whatever you want to call "it" -  between Maggie and Glenn in spite of all the kissy face and making out. In fact, they're so passionless (in my eyes) it embarasses me to watch them making out.

 

 

 

[Nashville]

This is the second death that didn't feel natural to me. I didn't believe Beth would just stab Dawn with the world's smallest scissor, and I don't believe Tyrese would be so transfixed by seeing photographs of twins, that he would ignore a grunting zombie.

I expect Tyreese was lulled into a false sense of temporary of security thinking Little Walker Boy was safely trapped behind a bedroom door.  The concept of Hollywood bathrooms was apparently foreign to him.  :P

 

He also had the strangest look on his face, almost like he couldn't believe what he was seeing. I felt sad, but it also made no sense. It also made no sense that they had Rick radio Carol to say they would need to cauterize the wound. Wouldn't he realize that something needed to cut off the blood flow immediately? Maybe they tied off the artery, but it sure didn't seem like it.

I don't see why calling for a cauterization would somehow imply they hadn't already applied a tourniquet; two different procedures.  We couldn't tell, because they had a blanket or something similar thrown over the arm while carrying him to the vehicle.  I expect it was a lost cause, anyway; Little Walker Boy's bite was already showing what looked like arterial spurt before Big Walker's bite added insult to injury, so a major portion of Tyreese's blood supply was probably already soaking into the carpet before Rick&Co. went all Ginsu on his ass -er- arm.  Throwing a belt over the stump couldn't correct for that.

[kikismom]

I never got the impression that he saw Lori this way. Rick's very first scene in the show involved him talking about how Lori had belittled him in front of their son. The Rick we saw there wasn't concerned about his masculinity. When Rick reunited with Lori and Carl, he tried to include Lori in decisions and ask her opinion, while she told him she'd support him. 

 

I'm also not sure if Rick sees Maggie as being tougher than Glenn.

 

First scene he talked about how Lori had been whining that she thought he didn't care about them at all. That's victim/martyr talk (IMHO).

At the farm she argued with him about keeping Carl alive, she (and Shane) argued with him about him going away and leaving her there (and Rick rightfully resented her letting Shane into that conversation that was none of his business). Rick went off about how he didn't like her looking at him that way, like she didn't think he could keep them safe. She was not all that supportive, at least in my memory. She did say once, if that's what you want, I'll support you, but...

To me she was always going on with her what about meeeeee?

But maybe the were seen as equals by some. JMO.

 

Rick has always spoken to Maggie respectfully; Glenn became Peach Boy to do the little scrubby tasks. (JMO!)

[AndySmith]

I hope we never see Rick and Michone as a couple. I just don't see that type of chemistry there. They seem to work best as 2 friends who mutually respect and like each other. The same with Daryl and Carol, except there, as AngelaHunter pointed out, it's more of a sibling thing. So no, those are definitely 2 couples I hope we never see.

I hope the producers and show runners don't give in to certain fan demands, because shippers ruin everything.

Edited February 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[Pete Martell]

First scene he talked about how Lori had been whining that she thought he didn't care about them at all. That's victim/martyr talk (IMHO).

At the farm she argued with him about keeping Carl alive, she (and Shane) argued with him about him going away and leaving her there (and Rick rightfully resented her letting Shane into that conversation that was none of his business). Rick went off about how he didn't like her looking at him that way, like she didn't think he could keep them safe. She was not all that supportive, at least in my memory. She did say once, if that's what you want, I'll support you, but...

To me she was always going on with her what about meeeeee?

But maybe the were seen as equals by some. JMO.

 

Rick has always spoken to Maggie respectfully; Glenn became Peach Boy to do the little scrubby tasks. (JMO!)

 

That was Glenn's role in the group before Rick ever met him. He actually stopped doing the scrubby tasks not all that long after Rick took over (I think the last was the well walker mess). I'm not saying that's because of Rick, because I do think Rick and Lori both at times treated him like a servant. I just don't think Rick saw him that way long-term.

 

I wasn't saying that Lori was strong - I don't think she was strong. I'm saying I don't think Rick saw her as the little woman, or that he needed her to be the little woman for his ego. I don't feel like he ever treated her that way until their last months, where her final betrayal over Shane's murder got him to a point where he could barely look at her without feeling sick.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Hava]

He also had the strangest look on his face, almost like he couldn't believe what he was seeing. I felt sad, but it also made no sense.

 

Yeah, what was up with that anyway? It almost seemed like he had discovered that Noah was lying about something.

[kikismom]

I had forgotten it. Until now.:(

 

I guess I'm the only one who sees no chemistry between any two people on this show. I don't see it with Rick/Michonne, and see absolutely zero between Daryl/Caryl. Those two could be brother and sister. I also can't see, and never did see, one bit of chemistry, spark, heat - whatever you want to call "it" -  between Maggie and Glenn in spite of all the kissy face and making out. In fact, they're so passionless (in my eyes) it embarasses me to watch them making out.

I agree; and I've thought about the Maggie/Glenn thing.

Steven Yuen grew up in a very religious family.

Lauren Cohen's bio says the JM Appel essay She Loves Me Not is about her. (A source on the author says it is about a celebrated folk singer but who knows,) She does list JM Appel as her favorite writer. Which is something unusual.

Appel is not only a writer but a self-described "bioethicist" who believes that bestiality should be allowed, pedophilia should be allowed "if consensual between both partners" and says that women should be allowed to get pregnant and abort the fetuses as a money making career as the aborted fetus produced could be used for organ donation etc. He said that if women have the anatomy why shouldn't they use it for profit?

Yeah...anyway (and there is an article like JM Appel---Scientist or Psychotic Nut?) I have wondered if they get along to work together but have a little trouble with any enjoyment of getting close and passionate. Even acting/faking. Because it must be like oil and water.

[Pete Martell]

I had forgotten it. Until now.:(

 

I guess I'm the only one who sees no chemistry between any two people on this show. I don't see it with Rick/Michonne, and see absolutely zero between Daryl/Caryl. Those two could be brother and sister. I also can't see, and never did see, one bit of chemistry, spark, heat - whatever you want to call "it" -  between Maggie and Glenn in spite of all the kissy face and making out. In fact, they're so passionless (in my eyes) it embarasses me to watch them making out.

 

I've also never seen any big sexual chemistry between Maggie and Glenn, but I think there's a tenderness and sense of belonging there which both actors have always sold.

 

I can only speak for myself, but when I talk about chemistry, I don't mean Rick fucks Michonne through the floorboards. I don't need or want to see that. Rosita/Abraham filled that bill more than enough this season. I'm just talking about a strong connection that skirts the line of friends. The way they look at each other, the tenderness, the hints of desire, the way that he, in last night's episode, very gently touched her when he knew she was upset - that's what I like in a couple. And I think there would be good drama in Rick and Michonne being a couple, especially in how Carl would react, how it would change group dynamics (if it did), what have you.

 

But I'm not expecting it and I'm not demanding it. I just want them to remain close, whatever happens. I don't want Rick to meet a new super special white lady and it's like "Michonne who?" and suddenly she is Carl's mother figure and Rick's main focus. 

 

I think the Bethyl/Caryl fan wars are a cautionary tale of this type of thing becoming too prominent in fandom.

[kikismom]

That was Glenn's role in the group before Rick ever met him. He actually stopped doing the scrubby tasks not all that long after Rick took over (I think the last was the well walker mess). I'm not saying that's because of Rick, because I do think Rick and Lori both at times treated him like a servant. I just don't think Rick saw him that way long-term.

 

I wasn't saying that Lori was strong - I don't think she was strong. I'm saying I don't think Rick saw her as the little woman, or that he needed her to be the little woman for his ego. I don't feel like he ever treated her that way until their last months, where her final betrayal over Shane's murder got him to a point where he could barely look at her without feeling sick.

But I don't know how that was Glenn's role in the group before---we didn't meet him till after we meet Rick. Yes he was the guy who did runs---but always had done it alone ("First time I bring a group and ") he was respected as the brave guy. Then it became fetch some shampoo and a Soap Opera Digest, fetch me some peaches, etc. Hell, Maggie lectured Glenn about how the other guys didn't respect him.

Sorry but I do think Rick saw her as the little woman---she doesn't go out to work (even Carol talked about having had a job in Atlanta) and I do think he needed her to seem grateful for his ego and he was mad that she kept second-guessing him.

But I looooooovve "he could barely look at her without feeling sick" LOL join the club Rick. :-D

Edited February 10, 2015 by kikismom

[kikismom]

I've also never seen any big sexual chemistry between Maggie and Glenn, but I think there's a tenderness and sense of belonging there which both actors have always sold.

 

I can only speak for myself, but when I talk about chemistry, I don't mean Rick fucks Michonne through the floorboards. I don't need or want to see that. Rosita/Abraham filled that bill more than enough this season. I'm just talking about a strong connection that skirts the line of friends. The way they look at each other, the tenderness, the hints of desire, the way that he, in last night's episode, very gently touched her when he knew she was upset - that's what I like in a couple. And I think there would be good drama in Rick and Michonne being a couple, especially in how Carl would react, how it would change group dynamics (if it did), what have you.

 

But I'm not expecting it and I'm not demanding it. I just want them to remain close, whatever happens. I don't want Rick to meet a new super special white lady and it's like "Michonne who?" and suddenly she is Carl's mother figure and Rick's main focus. 

 

I think the Bethyl/Caryl fan wars are a cautionary tale of this type of thing becoming too prominent in fandom.

Well, I always think the road to ruin for any series is when the fans aren't reacting to the story; the story is reacting to the fans.

It is not the obligation of this or any other story to fulfill our personal fantasies. The storyline should not be determined by our secret personal wishes. Either we get with the story enough to stay with it "warts and all" or we get mad that it isn't obeying us and stop watching.

For 12 years Robert Kirkman already wrote a story, and even if he's a dick, we wanted to follow that story. Now we want to run the story? No, let's not have the tail wag the dog.

The Bethyl/Caryl wars are the perfect example of how the show (at least the discussion/press/media) got hijacked by specific factions.Not again please. (and so soon?!)

[Pete Martell]

I guess to me Glenn wasn't all that respected from what we saw in the early episodes. I got the feeling the group saw him as a kid, and that was the people who liked him. The fact that Shane (who was the leader) had him risking his life on a mission with a drug-addled racist doesn't suggest respect to me. 

 

I felt like Lori's staying at home was her choice, not his, especially given the "know your place" type lecture to Andrea on the farm, but we can agree to disagree.

[catrox14]

 

Sorry but I do think Rick saw her as the little woman---she doesn't go out to work (even Carol talked about having had a job in Atlanta) and I do think he needed her to seem grateful for his ego and he was mad that she kept second-guessing him.

But I looooooovve "he could barely look at her without feeling sick" LOL join the club Rick. :-D

Lori put herself in that role of "little woman" and she was even moreso that way with Shane.  Lori seemed to be perfectly content with being the stay at home Mom etc. She seemed more inclined to  "traditional roles"  of her own accord. I never had the impression that Rick expected Lori to be that person. Remember Lori's meltdown about cooking and laundry etc.  She legitimately believed that was what the women should have been doing (re her argument with Andrea). Even if Rick may have held that belief (which I personally don't think he did) IMO he's a completely different man than he was at the start of the ZA so it would make sense to me that he would be changing.

 

I ship Richonne because I think they have a basis of true friendship after hardships, disagreements and near betrayals of trust. I think they get each other and they geniunely seem to actually like each other. They have earned mutual respect for each other.  Carl is attached to Michonne already and respects her and she respects him.  I think Rick and Michonne value each others' opinions even if they don't always see eye to eye and they have forgiven each other.   And to me that is what I find so appealing about them as romantic partners. We already know they would pretty much die for each other and for Carl.

 

And we saw that mutual respect in this episode when each aired their own disparate opinions on what to do next. Ultimately, Rick went with Michonne's opinion because IMO he could see how tired she is and he trusts her as much as he trusts Daryl.  

[kikismom]

I have to remember if Lori chose to be that kind of woman, Rick chose that kind of woman to marry. Which seems to be expecting her to keep being that way.

 

But let's all hope he has changed his tastes after how that ended because none of us could stand another Lori!

[GreyBunny]

Well, I always think the road to ruin for any series is when the fans aren't reacting to the story; the story is reacting to the fans.

It is not the obligation of this or any other story to fulfill our personal fantasies. The storyline should not be determined by our secret personal wishes. Either we get with the story enough to stay with it "warts and all" or we get mad that it isn't obeying us and stop watching.

For 12 years Robert Kirkman already wrote a story, and even if he's a dick, we wanted to follow that story. Now we want to run the story? No, let's not have the tail wag the dog.

The Bethyl/Caryl wars are the perfect example of how the show (at least the discussion/press/media) got hijacked by specific factions.Not again please. (and so soon?!)

 

So much this.  I'd love to see Rick and Michonne hook up but if they don't it will hardly ruin the show for me.  I don't expect Kirkman to be cuddly, I expect him to write a good story in his comic books and for the show writers to adapt a version appropriate for television.  

Besides,

Rick is rumored to get together with Jesse, a character we have yet to meet (in the comics it was Andrea), and, as stated, in the comics Michonne has a boyfriend that isn't Rick.

Edited February 10, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Too Late Kev]

I saw it too.  Right before the cutaway Michonne pulls her katana out of the sheath.  I think they stuck him in the neck or somewhere in the back of his head so Sasha didn't have to see a messed up face along with an amputated arm when they brought his body back.  I'm pretty sure that's why they stopped along the road in the first place - to stab Tyreese before he turned.

 

When Bob died, Tyreese stuck a knife in his ear. I think that's where Lizzy and Mika's father was knifed, too, to keep him from turning. Stabbing through the ear with a long enough knife would get to the brain, I think, without having to go through skull bones. Note that I can't confirm this with a quick Google and I'm not a doctor or anything. But that's what we've seen them do on the show in similar situations and presumably it would be easier to do physically than puncturing the bone and wouldn't leave a messy look for the loved ones.

[Anela]

I hope we never see Rick and Michone as a couple. I just don't see that type of chemistry there. They seem to work best as 2 friends who mutually respect and like each other. The same with Daryl and Carol, except there, as AngelaHunter pointed out, it's more of a sibling thing. So no, those are definitely 2 couples I hope we never see.

I hope the producers and show runners don't give in to certain fan demands, because shippers ruin everything.

I'm rarely a shipper, LOL. I only said that I see chemistry there. I think they would make a good couple, but it isn't a demand.

[CletusMusashi]

About Rick and Lori's expectations of women: I was about to chime in with a joke about how Rick really doesn't seem to care that much any more about getting his laundry done. But then, just as I was about to post, I started to wonder.He did travel an awfully long way to make Noah happy, didn't he?

Edited February 10, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Anela]

I've also never seen any big sexual chemistry between Maggie and Glenn, but I think there's a tenderness and sense of belonging there which both actors have always sold.

 

I can only speak for myself, but when I talk about chemistry, I don't mean Rick fucks Michonne through the floorboards. I don't need or want to see that. Rosita/Abraham filled that bill more than enough this season. I'm just talking about a strong connection that skirts the line of friends. The way they look at each other, the tenderness, the hints of desire, the way that he, in last night's episode, very gently touched her when he knew she was upset - that's what I like in a couple. And I think there would be good drama in Rick and Michonne being a couple, especially in how Carl would react, how it would change group dynamics (if it did), what have you.

 

But I'm not expecting it and I'm not demanding it. I just want them to remain close, whatever happens. I don't want Rick to meet a new super special white lady and it's like "Michonne who?" and suddenly she is Carl's mother figure and Rick's main focus. 

 

I think the Bethyl/Caryl fan wars are a cautionary tale of this type of thing becoming too prominent in fandom.

Yes, this! 

[AndySmith]

I'm glad you see the chemistry. Or rather, that type of chemistry between them. I don't see any desire between them. Just a deep level of mutual respect and friendship. And I hope it stays that way.

[NorthstarATL]

I just cannot understand shipping ANY couples until there is a shower facility avalable. And a laundry. I was seriously surprised about Tyreese because I thought his race, the recentness od Beth's death, and his role as the speedbump to efficiency would have meant he was untouchable. So, Bravo! writers for confounding my expectations! I was disappointed in Michonne this ep. I always saw her as pragmatic and the least likely to trust large groupings. I would have thought she'd be like T-Dog, and want to head for the coast, or Lake Lanier, or the Georgia mountains, where there are natural resources, less inhabitants to contend with (either living or dead), and a chance to truly rest and re-group. Washington D.C. just seems like the worst possible choice. Nothing good happens there, and it would probably only be worse post-ZA.

[Timetoread]

Well, I always think the road to ruin for any series is when the fans aren't reacting to the story; the story is reacting to the fans.

It is not the obligation of this or any other story to fulfill our personal fantasies. The storyline should not be determined by our secret personal wishes. Either we get with the story enough to stay with it "warts and all" or we get mad that it isn't obeying us and stop watching.

For 12 years Robert Kirkman already wrote a story, and even if he's a dick, we wanted to follow that story. Now we want to run the story? No, let's not have the tail wag the dog.

The Bethyl/Caryl wars are the perfect example of how the show (at least the discussion/press/media) got hijacked by specific factions.Not again please. (and so soon?!)

I'm a bit confused. When did Caryl or Bethyl happen? Last I saw Daryl hasn't been romantic with any female. Nor has Rick. So when exactly did the tail wag the dog that should give us such pause? And if I looked to somebody else's work of fiction to fulfill my personal fantasies I wouldn't watch anything at all.

While I agree that Kirkman and Co. lack the chops to write an appealing romantic storyline, I don't understand the FANDOM insistence that such an idea is ludicrous and everyone who even hints at it should be shamed into submission. Seems to me that if nobody ever hooks up until the end of the show THAT will be the tail wagging the dog. Fans don't want to see romance and prefer monastic and platonic existences for their fictional characters therefore there won't be any.

[candall]

I agree; and I've thought about the Maggie/Glenn thing.

Steven Yuen grew up in a very religious family.

Lauren Cohen's bio says the JM Appel essay She Loves Me Not is about her. (A source on the author says it is about a celebrated folk singer but who knows,) She does list JM Appel as her favorite writer. Which is something unusual.

Appel is not only a writer but a self-described "bioethicist" who believes that bestiality should be allowed, pedophilia should be allowed "if consensual between both partners" and says that women should be allowed to get pregnant and abort the fetuses as a money making career as the aborted fetus produced could be used for organ donation etc. He said that if women have the anatomy why shouldn't they use it for profit?

Yeah...anyway (and there is an article like JM Appel---Scientist or Psychotic Nut?) I have wondered if they get along to work together but have a little trouble with any enjoyment of getting close and passionate. Even acting/faking. Because it must be like oil and water.

So interesting, K'mom.  Thanks.  This is exactly why I spend (way too much) time on PreTV forums--some kind of huge bizarre ideology I've never heard of, a little insight into the actors and a fresh angle to consider the interaction between the characters.  Hat trick. 

 

ETA:  And of course, the pithy funnies:  ". . . speedbump to efficiency. . ."  Bwahahaha

Edited February 10, 2015 by candall

[GreyBunny]

I'm a bit confused. When did Caryl or Bethyl happen? 

 

It didn't, that's the point.  People hoped one or the other might and got into heated arguments about things that haven't even happened in the canon of the show.

 

While I agree that Kirkman and Co. lack the chops to write an appealing romantic storyline, I don't understand the FANDOM insistence that such an idea is ludicrous and everyone who even hints at it should be shamed into submission. Seems to me that if nobody ever hooks up until the end of the show THAT will be the tail wagging the dog. Fans don't want to see romance and prefer monastic and platonic existences for their fictional characters therefore there won't be any.

 

I don't think people are saying all romantic couplings are ludicrous - we have had several couples already and I personally liked most of them - just that they will be difficult while the people in question are being starved, dehydrated, hunted, and running for their lives.  Often basic survival trumps romance.  Also, due to spoilers and knowledge of the comic books, some hypothetical pairings aren't going to happen or at best will be highly improbable.   

Edited February 10, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Nashville]

Upon rewatch:

1. The graffiti did say "WOLVES NOT FAR", unfortunately.  Too bad - the prospect of unfair wolves was totally delicious.
2. They did tourniquet Tyreese.  Most of the time during the extraction from the subdivision, Tyreese's amputation is covered by a blanket; when Noah loses his grip and Tyreese falls as they breech the subdivision's gate, however, the blanket slips off and you can see a leather strap right above the cut.  It still wasn't enough to totally stop the blood loss - only slow it appreciably.
3. The marks carved on the foreheads of the upper-half walkers were Ws.  On Head 1 (for lack of a better term), the carving was so crude as to easily be confused with two Xs; on Heads 2 and 3, however, the W is more distinct.

[Haleth]

Maybe you all can clear something up that I missed.  Where is the rest of the group?  Did the Noah Expedition gang make the 500 mile trip, leaving everyone else back in GA?  Theirs was the only car we saw pass the SC sign, wasn't it?  Or did they all drive up to VA and camp out somewhere outside of Richmond with only the smaller group going to Noah's house?  When Tyreese got hurt did they drive all the way back to GA (who thought he'd last that long?) or was it to the group's new camp in VA?  If they decide to head to DC do they all have to make that 600 mile drive again or are they all just 100 miles away?

[ghoulina]

I just couldn't buy into the whole "We;re fulfilling Beth's final wish by going to Richmond" business. She knew Noah for what, a week or so? She didn't know if anyone else from her original group was alive besides Daryl. So at the hospital she casually mentioned to Noah (after he described his old neighborhood) "Sure, if we get out, I'll go with you there." It wasn't like her heartfelt quest or anything.

 

I agree. I thought that was laying it on a little thick. I honestly didn't even remember her and Noah discussing it (but, in fairness, I did block out most of the hospital arc). I would have found it more plausible if they just said, "We've exhausted this area, and Noah knows of a pretty well fortified place up the road, so let's see what we can find". 

[Timetoread]

It didn't, that's the point.  People hoped one or the other might and got into heated arguments about things that haven't even happened in the canon of the show.

 

 

I don't think people are saying all romantic couplings are ludicrous - we have had several couples already and I personally liked most of them - just that they will be difficult while the people in question are being starved, dehydrated, hunted, and running for their lives.  Often basic survival trumps romance.  Also, due to spoilers and knowledge of the comic books, some hypothetical pairings aren't going to happen or at best will be highly improbable.

Basic survival didn't trump the romances that did happen - all of which took place in the context of much horror. I still believe that the real objection to certain pairings is that the fandom doesn't consider the females in question good enough for the prime cut males in question: Carol is too old to be attractive and Jungle Fever shouldn't infect good ol' Georgia boys like Rick.

Now IMO the REAL tail wagging the dog is the comic. There is far too much talk about what will happen and what couldn't happen because of it. I haven't read them but if I am not allowed to excitedly anticipate what MAY happen because I'll get beat over the head by readers, then perhaps it IS time to stop watching.

[SevenStars]

Caryl and Bethyl  didn't ruin the show. It might have ruined some people's enjoyment in the fandom but that's it. And honestly, there is ALWAYS something in fandoms that ruin people's enjoyment. I don't see how Caryl and Bethyl should/could be a cautionary tale of what happens when people start to ship characters, when it didn't ruin the writing on the show, which is the most important thing to me, not the fandom. 

 

As for Rick and Lori, I always thought that  Rick loved Lori enough that no matter what type of woman she wanted to be, he would take her that way.  But when the ZA happened, it seems like he wanted a change. He wanted/expected her to no longer act like the little woman but instead act like his partner. That's why at the start he would go to her and talk to her about what was happening and what they should do next. But Lori didn't want to change who she was before ZA, so she would just tell him to do what he knows is best, or just agree with him. Rick stopped going to her when he realized that she wasn't changing and after the way she reacted towards him regarding Shane, he couldn't trust her enough to even attempt to make her a part of his thoughts/feelings. I never got the impression that Rick prefer "little woman" type of woman, maybe he does in the comic but I haven't seen that on my screen. 

[Timetoread]

Haleth, the whole group drove down but the rest hung back just in case there was big trouble at Noah's.

I agree. I thought that was laying it on a little thick. I honestly didn't even remember her and Noah discussing it (but, in fairness, I did block out most of the hospital arc). I would have found it more plausible if they just said, "We've exhausted this area, and Noah knows of a pretty well fortified place up the road, so let's see what we can find".

Ironically I think the true send up to Beth is that they are just coming up with stuff to do, a la find some whiskey to drink, to keep from falling into a nihilistic black hole of misery.

[ghoulina]

Maybe you all can clear something up that I missed.  Where is the rest of the group?  Did the Noah Expedition gang make the 500 mile trip, leaving everyone else back in GA?  Theirs was the only car we saw pass the SC sign, wasn't it?  Or did they all drive up to VA and camp out somewhere outside of Richmond with only the smaller group going to Noah's house?  When Tyreese got hurt did they drive all the way back to GA (who thought he'd last that long?) or was it to the group's new camp in VA?  If they decide to head to DC do they all have to make that 600 mile drive again or are they all just 100 miles away?

 

They all came together. But Rick had Carol's group hanging back a bit, til they sussed out the situation. They never showed Carol's group in their vehicle, but we heard her talking to Rick via the walkie. At the end, he called for Carol to come quick because of Ty's situation - then they were all at his funeral together.

[Pete Martell]

I was rewatching as I missed the first minute or so, and realized that Eugene (that 18-20 or so days were some good healing for him...) was one of the people listening to Rick talk about the plans to go to the housing estate. 

 

I understand why Eugene did what he did and I also understand why they're keeping him around, but having him be a part of major group decisions is more generous than I would be. I would be like, "OK everybody, here's what we're going to do. Not you, Eugene. Go clean my boots."

 

Watching again I'm also reminded of just how good the performances were when they realized the estate was destroyed.

 

It's a shame this show only ever gets notice for bad acting, and the consistently strong acting from many is ignored.

[SevenStars]

Now IMO the REAL tail wagging the dog is the comic. There is far too much talk about what will happen and what couldn't happen because of it. I haven't read them but if I am not allowed to excitedly anticipate what MAY happen because I'll get beat over the head by readers, then perhaps it IS time to stop watching.

 

Especially since the writers have been saying they are going to follow the comic more closely this season but base on people's discussion of the show and comic, I have not really seen that. But since I didn't read the comic, I might be wrong.

Edited February 10, 2015 by SevenStars

[morgankobi]

Someone did clear-up the wolves thing later Sunday night, but we're playing with it anyway!

 

I also thought there was something Ty was confused about/figuring out while looking (so long) at those pictures of the twins. At the time, I thought maybe he was figuring out that Noah was a twin (not that he had twin brothers of a different age) and then they were going to find a walker that looked just like Noah to deal with. 

[Pete Martell]

Caryl and Bethyl  didn't ruin the show. It might have ruined some people's enjoyment in the fandom but that's it. And honestly, there is ALWAYS something in fandoms that ruin people's enjoyment. I don't see how Caryl and Bethyl should/could be a cautionary tale of what happens when people start to ship characters, when it didn't ruin the writing on the show, which is the most important thing to me, not the fandom. 

 

I think it's a cautionary tale mostly because I do feel like the writing slanted somewhat toward the idea of which woman Daryl was supposed to be with, or save, to the point of both of them being in the hospital for Daryl to have to go free. I think the show never let it go too far onscreen in terms of divisions (and they made sure to never have Beth and Carol treat each other as rivals), but the way Beth's story became so focused on Daryl, the winking and nodding in interviews and on Talking Dead, the fan hate that I think both Melissa and Norman spoke out about - I think it does take a toll on the overall core of the show and core of the relationships between characters. I also feel like it has put Daryl into a holding pattern as a character (along with several other things). 

 

It wouldn't have to be that way with Rick and Michonne, but sometimes I get nervous over how the show may react. I remember the racial slurs hurled at Danai online after Michonne's brief flirtation with Daryl, and that made me nervous too.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Pete Martell

[ghoulina]

Someone did clear-up the wolves thing later Sunday night, but we're playing with it anyway!

 

Unfair wolves is so much more fun. Damn those wolves, coming in here and destroying things. They're so unfair!

[Pete Martell]

Yeah, what was up with that anyway? It almost seemed like he had discovered that Noah was lying about something.

 

One of Tyreese's big struggles was seeing humans turn into walkers, knowing walkers had once been human, etc. I think seeing photos of the twins, proof right before his eyes of their humanity, that they hadn't always just been the things he now would have to put down, shocked and demoralized him. 

[Pete Martell]

I feel awful for saying this, and I'm not saying it because I believe those were the views of the characters when they were alive, but Beth singing and playing guitar with Lizzie and Mika in front of her reminded me of that controversy about 5-10 years back with the girls who were part of some white supremacist youth singing group or whatever. 

 

I'm sure that was not the show's intent, it's just one of those things that got stuck in my head. 

 

On a few other random notes...

 

The girl who played Lizzie grew up a lot over the last year. 

 

Tyreese's response to The Governor was probably the most effective use of "shit" yet, rather than just saying "shit" because you can say it. 

 

Maybe in season 10 they can get around to using "fuck" that way. 

[Timetoread]

One of Tyreese's big struggles was seeing humans turn into walkers, knowing walkers had once been human, etc. I think seeing photos of the twins, proof right before his eyes of their humanity, that they hadn't always just been the things he now would have to put down, shocked and demoralized him.

Which makes the fact that Noah had to put down his own walker brother to save Tyrese that much more poignant.

And, because I hadn't yet said it, I really like Noah and think he could have a place in this group. Carl needs a friend in his age group. Noah knows how to be a big brother.

[SevenStars]

I think it's a cautionary tale mostly because I do feel like the writing slanted somewhat toward the idea of which woman Daryl was supposed to be with, or save, to the point of both of them being in the hospital for Daryl to have to go free. I think the show never let it go too far onscreen in terms of divisions (and they made sure to never have Beth and Carol treat each other as rivals), but the way Beth's story became so focused on Daryl, the winking and nodding in interviews and on Talking Dead, the fan hate that I think both Melissa and Norman spoke out about - I think it does take a toll on the overall core of the show and core of the relationships between characters. I also feel like it has put Daryl into a holding pattern as a character (along with several other things). 

 

It wouldn't have to be that way with Rick and Michonne, but sometimes I get nervous over how the show may react. I remember the racial slurs hurled at Danai online after Michonne's brief flirtation with Daryl, and that made me nervous too.

 

I don't think the writers slanted the story that way because of Carly/Bethly. I think the writers didn't want the audience to know which character would survive and they wanted the fans to really believe that either one of these characters could die. They picked Beth and Carol, because they are characters the audience can truly believe are in danger of dying. But I think the Caryl/Bethly fandom battle made it seems like the writers are using these two characters in order to prove a point, when the truth of the matter is, if there hadn't been a Caryl/Bethly battle in the fandom, people most likely wouldn't have even thought this was about shipping wars. 

 

The media focus the story on Daryl,  not Beth, not the writing on the show, because unlike Beth, Daryl is very popular, which have nothing to do with shipping but all about getting hits on their articles. The show, showed a Beth trying to survive a tough situation, without even thinking about Daryl. A Daryl, who seems to have easily giving-up on finding Beth, until he saw the car that took her. I see most of the characters in a holding pattern and I hate that but I'm hopping it will change in this half of the season. 

 

As for the bts stuff, whether is it about shipping/ characters decision or whatever, there is ALWAYS going to be a portion of fans who give actors and writers a hard-time. But it seems like people only focus on that when it is being done by people who ship characters, because somehow being a shipper is seen as bad/weak/lesser. I compare it to the way people have respect for men who are hardcore fans of sports but are dismissive towards other groups of hardcore fans of things that are not consider masculine but feminine. 

 

I get your fears about Danai getting hate, but the truth of the matter is, she is a black woman character, that guarantee she will get hate, whether she ever have any romantic relationship with Rick or Daryl . After seeing this happen over and over in every fandom, no matter how well written these characters are, I'm done worrying about how those in the fandoms will react to them. I just want great writing for them, writings that show them as fully develop human beings, including having moments of weakness and love.

Edited February 10, 2015 by SevenStars

[Too Late Kev]

I wish they'd discussed in the episode what might have happened to Noah's gated community. When Michonne was interested in refortifying it and living there, all the talk was about the forest around and how much effort it might be to fix the wall. Nobody thought to say, "These homes have been burned and heads are carved up, there's gotta be some really bad excuses for human beings around here, and we don't want to be around if they come back."

[Anela]

I just cannot understand shipping ANY couples until there is a shower facility avalable. And a laundry.

I thought the same thing when people kept talking about how there would be a lot more hooking up in that sort of environment. So why sex, but no relationships?

 

I'm not asking you directly. I don't recall who was talking about how much nooky the characters should be having. I've always thought about the showers -  I do notice how grubby they are. ;)

Edited February 10, 2015 by Anela

[Ocean Chick]

You know what a mermaid is the result of?

 

 

Guess ol' Amy liked'em "dolphin smooth" as well.  ;)

[Canada]

I liked this show back when it actually told a story.  An entire episode devoted to the death of a character I hated?  What a waste of time and effort.  So much arty-farty crap.  They could be doing so much more with this show, but it's just gone to shit this season.  This used to be the first show I wanted to watch.  Now it's the last.

[NoWillToResist]

I felt so bad for Michonne. She so wanted that place to be a new home. The more she stretched credulity, the worse I felt for her. And then she saw all those hacked up bodies and you could just see the hope drain out of her.

 

Well Tyreese, at least you won't have to kill anything now that you're dead. Still can't believe that, knowing there were live walkers in the house, Tyreese takes a time-out to look at family photos with his back to the room. Fucking hell, Tyreese. You really weren't cut out for the ZA, were you honey?

 

That said, I find myself annoyed that pretty much every walker ever makes noise, yet that young walker creeped up all nice and quiet. Convenient.

 

How in the hell did Noah manage to get pinned down by two walkers on a porch? If he could outrun Tyreese, how the hell did he fail at getting away from two walkers? God, he and FPP will get along marvelously.

 

I am completely freaked out by whatever happened in that housing complex. Walls were hammered down; houses were burned; people were burned; bodies were hacked in half and the segments were SEPARATED from each other, with the legs scattered outside the walls and the torsos stuffed in a truck. What? Why? Who? But seriously, WHAT??? That is all kinds of fucked up.

[Too Late Kev]

I think there'd be a lot of relationships. You're thrown in with a small group of people, all trying to survive in this awful situation. Just like we pair up in good times, and we pair up at work (with "work spouses"), we certainly would pair up ("ZA spouse"?) and become family (ZA siblings, ZA kids) with people in our group. People would come to understandings that they're sticking together no matter what. For example, I think at this point among the adults, Rick, Michonne, Daryl, and Carol wouldn't want to split destinations. I don't think Daryl is likely to say, "Hey, it's been nice, but Carol and I are are getting on a bike and heading to Florida."

 

Glenn and Maggie are obviously sticking together, and if it were the real world, I could see them deciding to head out on their own. They won't for the show, of course (except in a short-lived "we're taking Eugene to Washington...no, we aren't!"), but in real life, they'd be an entity that would make decisions together that might cause them to leave the group.

 

Anyway, some of those with ZA spouses would realistically, when they had a spare safe(-ish) moment, clean up as well as they could to have sex, hopefully with protection if they didn't want to deal with a post-ZA pregnancy at this point. I know people in the Middle Ages and cave-people had sex w/o benefit of toothpaste, floss, and hot showers, but that's how they grew up. We didn't grow up that way, nor did Rick's people, and they're going to clean up.

 

Anyway, all this about relationships and sex should probably go in some other thread...

 

On topic for the episode...Tyreese is wearing a long-sleeved shirt -- why did he push up the sleeves? I know showing skin on this show is a common complaint, which often gets answered with "Georgia is hot, y'all," but...it's autumn, right? I saw a road with swirling brownish leaves. And they're heading north, so it's getting cooler. Tyreese is wearing a long-sleeved t-shirt, but it's like he pushed up the sleeves to give access to a hungry twin. If he'd left them down, he might have still been bitten, but through the shirt. So unless the twin in question ("he's a biter, that one") ripped the shirt, the zombie saliva wouldn't have gotten into the wound. Then again, that twin obviously had super-strong and sharp teeth, and probably would have bitten through leather, or even a concrete t-shirt. When they've decided you'll go, you'll go.

 

But c'mon guys...cover your arms (Michonne). Cover your legs (Mullet-head). Cover your midriffs (Rosita...for all three of those things, actually). Dammit, cover up, including work gloves or partial gloves, every time you're venturing outside of a cleared zone.

[Haleth]

So unless the twin in question ("he's a biter, that one") ripped the shirt, the zombie saliva wouldn't have gotten into the wound. Then again, that twin obviously had super-strong and sharp teeth, and probably would have bitten through leather, or even a concrete t-shirt. When they've decided you'll go, you'll go.

It's a good thing they haven't come across any walkers with braces.