S05.E09: What Happened, And What's Going On

[AngelaHunter]

So much arty-farty crap.

 

My words exactly as I watched. That could be fine in a two hour movie, but we get a scant 43 - 44 minutes (after blaring ads are cut out), and instead of letting us check in on everyone it had to be filled with showing panormas, weird camera angles, the same pictures/scenes over and over to wailing, evocative music. Even the visitations by the dead got boring as it dragged on and I was wishing they'd all just STFU and Tyreese, die already.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I still believe that the real objection to certain pairings is that the fandom doesn't consider the females in question good enough for the prime cut males in question: Carol is too old to be attractive and Jungle Fever shouldn't infect good ol' Georgia boys like Rick.

 

 

        TRUTH!

[JackONeill]

Which makes the fact that Noah had to put down his own walker brother to save Tyrese that much more poignant.

And, because I hadn't yet said it, I really like Noah and think he could have a place in this group. Carl needs a friend in his age group. Noah knows how to be a big brother.

 

I hadn't even thought of that. Of course, nowadays, I think the only appropriate running buddy for Carl would be Dirty Harry.

[AndySmith]

 

the fandom doesn't consider the females in question good enough for the prime cut males in question: Carol is too old to be attractive and Jungle Fever shouldn't infect good ol' Georgia boys like Rick.

 

Don't assume that everyone is opposed to those couples for those reasons.

[JackONeill]

Speaking of dating and relationships and "doing it," just think if this were the original Star Trek.  Kirk would have had every one of those women (including Mary from Terminus and Dawn from the hospital) and maybe even a few of the walkers (at least the better looking ones.  With all their limbs.)

Edited February 10, 2015 by JackONeill

[candall]

Speaking of dating and relationships and "doing it," just think if this were the original Star Trek.  Kirk would have had every one of those women (including Mary from Terminus and Dawn from the hospital) and maybe even a few of the walkers (at least the better looking ones.  With all their limbs.)

Phaser set to stun.

[NorthstarATL]

I think there'd be a lot of relationships. You're thrown in with a small group of people, all trying to survive in this awful situation. Just like we pair up in good times, and we pair up at work (with "work spouses"), we certainly would pair up ("ZA spouse"?) and become family (ZA siblings, ZA kids) with people in our group. People would come to understandings that they're sticking together no matter what. For example, I think at this point among the adults, Rick, Michonne, Daryl, and Carol wouldn't want to split destinations. I don't think Daryl is likely to say, "Hey, it's been nice, but Carol and I are are getting on a bike and heading to Florida."

 

Glenn and Maggie are obviously sticking together, and if it were the real world, I could see them deciding to head out on their own. They won't for the show, of course (except in a short-lived "we're taking Eugene to Washington...no, we aren't!"), but in real life, they'd be an entity that would make decisions together that might cause them to leave the group.

 

Anyway, some of those with ZA spouses would realistically, when they had a spare safe(-ish) moment, clean up as well as they could to have sex, hopefully with protection if they didn't want to deal with a post-ZA pregnancy at this point. I know people in the Middle Ages and cave-people had sex w/o benefit of toothpaste, floss, and hot showers, but that's how they grew up. We didn't grow up that way, nor did Rick's people, and they're going to clean up.

 

Anyway, all this about relationships and sex should probably go in some other thread...

 

On topic for the episode...Tyreese is wearing a long-sleeved shirt -- why did he push up the sleeves? I know showing skin on this show is a common complaint, which often gets answered with "Georgia is hot, y'all," but...it's autumn, right? I saw a road with swirling brownish leaves. And they're heading north, so it's getting cooler. Tyreese is wearing a long-sleeved t-shirt, but it's like he pushed up the sleeves to give access to a hungry twin. If he'd left them down, he might have still been bitten, but through the shirt. So unless the twin in question ("he's a biter, that one") ripped the shirt, the zombie saliva wouldn't have gotten into the wound. Then again, that twin obviously had super-strong and sharp teeth, and probably would have bitten through leather, or even a concrete t-shirt. When they've decided you'll go, you'll go.

 

But c'mon guys...cover your arms (Michonne). Cover your legs (Mullet-head). Cover your midriffs (Rosita...for all three of those things, actually). Dammit, cover up, including work gloves or partial gloves, every time you're venturing outside of a cleared zone.

Well, we obviously disagree on hygiene and its role in evolution. My line would certainly die out because there are certain things my desire to repopulate could not get past. I'm good with that. BUT on the subject of sleevelessness, etc. and specifically the Georgia climate, we can have all the Fall leaves on the ground and have the temperatures in the 70s to 80s. It's nearing 70 right now in February as I type this. Personally, I would take my chances with the walkers over having to wear layers of clothing in the Georgia heat. Especially clothing which has not been laundered! I shudder to think how much those pants must weigh! (Mind you, I haven't worn long pants in almost a decade.)

[kikismom]

So much this.  I'd love to see Rick and Michonne hook up but if they don't it will hardly ruin the show for me.  I don't expect Kirkman to be cuddly, I expect him to write a good story in his comic books and for the show writers to adapt a version appropriate for television.  

Besides,

Rick is rumored to get together with Jesse, a character we have yet to meet (in the comics it was Andrea), and, as stated, in the comics Michonne has a boyfriend that isn't Rick.

Besides,

there is a Jesse and then he hooks up with Andrea in the comic. So he has two hookups in the original.

 

 

I'm a bit confused. When did Caryl or Bethyl happen? Last I saw Daryl hasn't been romantic with any female. Nor has Rick. So when exactly did the tail wag the dog that should give us such pause?

I had posted "the Caryl/Bethyl wars. Not something that happened on the show; the way the wars took up so much media/press/interview space.

 I posted let's not have the tail wag the dog, not the tail has wagged the dog. I may have not written the post as clearly as I could have.

 

 

Basic survival didn't trump the romances that did happen - all of which took place in the context of much horror. I still believe that the real objection to certain pairings is that the fandom doesn't consider the females in question good enough for the prime cut males in question: Carol is too old to be attractive and Jungle Fever shouldn't infect good ol' Georgia boys like Rick.

Now IMO the REAL tail wagging the dog is the comic. There is far too much talk about what will happen and what couldn't happen because of it. I haven't read them but if I am not allowed to excitedly anticipate what MAY happen because I'll get beat over the head by readers, then perhaps it IS time to stop watching.

 

I do think the original work, whether a comic as the basis for a tv show, or a novel as the basis for a feature film is supposed to be the source material ---the dog, not the tail? I think the network bought the GN rights to wag a show from it.

 

Of course you are allowed to excitedly anticipate what MAY happen.

I do put spoiler tags, and people are welcome not to read the spoilers---the problem is not that some viewers who don't know the comic are excited about what MAY happen. The problem is that people who don't want to read the comic are making very strong accusations against the scriptwriters, the producers, and the network.

 

It's fine not to know what the future holds; it is not fine to decide that if the future doesn't hold what any of us personally wish that the only explanation for that must be very evil motivations by the creators. If that's anyone's opinion or belief, it still cannot be said as fact to indict people as guilty for some charge.

 

Example: when Emily Kinney left, people were saying on some boards that Scott Gimple was forcing her to sleep with him and she refused and because she would not have sex with him that's why she lost her job. That's not an opinion; stating it as the factual reason for the storyline is libel. Accusing him of committing a crime against labor law and a crime of sexual offense is libel and false report of criminal behaviour.

We can all joke around, we can all say I wish, but I for one don't think we can say the only reason for this is: _____________.

 

Frankly, I think that while Rick is good looking, he has screwed up leadership decisions a lot (my opinion), but I won't say that Rick's character is still alive because Andrew Lincoln gave Robert Kirkman a blow job.  Or because Gale Ann Hurd is a secret anti-American traitor who fills roles with British actors just to keep Americans out of work.

As stated on this forum before: "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses, not zebras."  (Dr.Theodore Woodward.)

[mightysparrow]

Pretty white girl.

I see and acknowledge the chemistry between AL and DG but, since we are talking about a show that actually operates on quotas and the world we live in is still the world we live in, I know that Eugene will discover the cure for zombieism before Rick and Michonne would knock boots. Trust me, no breath holding for me.

Also, please stop marginalizing and dismissing my opinion as a "shipper" who pulls nonsense out of thin air because I think one, count it ONE tv couple has chemistry. Men and women have been known to hookup in the past. Why am I stupid for thinking lightening might strike twice and it happen again?

 

Good comment.

 

I always have to do a double take when someone is 'shocked, SHOCKED!' at the thought of Michonne being a love interest for one of our heroes. Have they been watching the show? Michonne is one of, if not THE hottest women in the ZA. Neither Rick or Daryl can look in her direction before their eyeballs start wandering. It's been brought up on TD several times. So what's the problem??????

 

Personally, I think Michonne and Rick are and will remain good friends. There may be a bit of attraction. But as Gale Anne Hurd has said, Daryl is to Carol what Rick is to Michonne.

 

My money is on Daryl/Michonne. Our bad boy is growing up and I think he's going to be ready for a romantic relationship soon and I think he and Michonne will get together. I can't wait!!!!

[kj4ever]

I remain convinced it's more about something I said a long time ago; basically it's more about balls.

Rick doesn't want to be the "Glenn"---the guy whose girlfriend is tougher.

 

I had posted that a lot of men can respect and admire a strong women but they can't always feel sexually toward her. Rick's one main relationship was with Miss Domestic Goddess and Helpless Damsel In Distress Lori. Some guys only find themselves able to get it going with a woman who doesn't threaten their masculinity (even if she isn't trying to; if the man just perceives her abilities as making him less confident.)

 

I don't know if that is the case, or if so, if it has changed with other lessons learned in the last couple years. But I do notice that on this show, no couples are equals.

One partner always is seen as a dominant leader type and one is seen as the milder follower type.

 

Even when Andrea was with the Governor---and Andrea was a strong personality---I noticed that she felt she was appreciated for her strength until she learned a truth on the day that Rick and Brillip met (Arrow On The Doorstep). Both guys are facing each other across the table, but when she stands at the end and begins to speak? whoops run along now girlie this is men's business. She had been asked by both men to broker that meeting, but as soon as it started she was blown off by Brillip and Rick. In a dick-waving contest, a guy can't be seen as taking advice from someone in panties.

Not to make a general sweeping statement....Okay I'm going to make a general sweeping statement...A whole lot of the cops I know, and I know a lot, are married to the stay-at-home ultra feminine type.  And really we can't help what we are attracted to, right?

 

I pray that Richonne never happens, because I think Michonne would be regulated to babysitter/housewife and all her badassery would be gone.  I like that a man and woman can be friends and have respect and NOT go there.  She's to good for Rick anyway :) 

 

I can see a spark between them, but I can also see a spark between Michonne/Daryl, hell even Michonne/Father PP....She has chemistry with EVERYONE.  Such an awesome actress!

Edited February 10, 2015 by kj4ever

[BrokenRemote]

Pretty white girl.

I see and acknowledge the chemistry between AL and DG but, since we are talking about a show that actually operates on quotas and the world we live in is still the world we live in, I know that Eugene will discover the cure for zombieism before Rick and Michonne would knock boots. Trust me, no breath holding for me.

Also, please stop marginalizing and dismissing my opinion as a "shipper" who pulls nonsense out of thin air because I think one, count it ONE tv couple has chemistry. Men and women have been known to hookup in the past. Why am I stupid for thinking lightening might strike twice and it happen again?

 

I don't know if you're referring to me, but I didn't say anything that was marginalizing you or dismissing your opinion.  The way I see it, some folks will see legitimate chemistry between two actors and a little chord will strike in their minds, a sort of 'hm, there's something there' or 'they'd be a cool couple'.  Maybe the actors are playing it that way in their heads, maybe they get along behind the scenes, or there's just some natural connection there that comes through on screen.  Once that's in your head (and I know this because it's happened to me on a different show) every interaction between those characters is seen through that lens.  It's impossible not to see it.  So it's not that you're pulling nonsense out of thin air (and I have not seen anyone here make that accusation or even imply it) but that you're seeing something from a different perspective than me because of something that caught your eye and didn't catch mine.  

 

I haven't seen any shaming on these boards for Richonne shippers--it seems like it's a pretty popular ship here. 

Good comment.

 

I always have to do a double take when someone is 'shocked, SHOCKED!' at the thought of Michonne being a love interest for one of our heroes. Have they been watching the show? Michonne is one of, if not THE hottest women in the ZA. Neither Rick or Daryl can look in her direction before their eyeballs start wandering. It's been brought up on TD several times. So what's the problem??????

 

Personally, I think Michonne and Rick are and will remain good friends. There may be a bit of attraction. But as Gale Anne Hurd has said, Daryl is to Carol what Rick is to Michonne.

 

My money is on Daryl/Michonne. Our bad boy is growing up and I think he's going to be ready for a romantic relationship soon and I think he and Michonne will get together. I can't wait!!!!

Just because Michonne is hot (no argument there) it doesn't mean that she's the perfect woman for every man she knows.  Maybe some people are SHOCKED because none of the men on this show are good enough for her :D

[Ocean Chick]

The idea of "falling in love" and getting married is rather a new invention, timewise.  For most of history, marriage was truly a partnership.  You chose your wife or husband based on how their skills and ideals complemented your own, not on how well they filled out their clothes.  I have a feeling that the post-za world will be a lot like that - it won't have anything to do with "chemistry", but with survival and people's beliefs and goals.  If you can hunt, a good compliment for a spouse would be someone who can cook.  If you can tan leather, then someone who can make things from that leather would be a good partner.  You're okay with killing other people in order to survive?  You'd probably want a partner who believes the same thing.

 

So yes, I could see Rick and Michonne partnering up.  Also Carol and Daryl.  Or Carol and Rick.  Or Daryl and Michonne.  Or any of the for-mentioned with other people they meet.  As long as they're compatible and won't spend their entire time fighting each other, I'm good.  Sex is just a part of the package, not the whole package.

[RedHackle]

I'm assuming that once Morgan shows up, Noah is dead. Because this obnoxious trend continues with what is otherwise a fabulous show.

 

That's a relief, I thought it was just me.  I was stressing about the cut Noah got on his head the minute it happened - they don't usually throw something like that in for no reason.  Damnit.

 

Okay so my aside from Tyrese dying, my other big gripe with this episode; that Mika and Lizzie were together and Mika didn't take the opportunity to punch Lizzie in the head 20 or 30 times.  Trust me, if my sisters had ever actually killed me (as opposed to threatening to on a daily basis) I would totally come back from the dead just to bite them.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Don't assume that everyone is opposed to those couples for those reasons.

 

        Not all.

 

        But I'd say for those reasons, a large portion of the fandom is.

 

        Which is quite unfortunate.

[TVFan17]

I think it would have been funny to have T-Dog, Oscar, Big Tiny, and Bob standing there with a sign that says, "Welcome to the Club!"

 

 

That would have been something to see. Martin and The Gov in the back, Herschel riding in the bitch seat, Andrea clinging to the roof, T-Dog and Oscar there to welcome Tyreese to the club. Beautiful.

 

 

The death-express-to-heaven car ride reminded me of the Alanis Morissette video for "Ironic," with several different versions of Alanis in the same car, acting crazy.  I was waiting for Beth or someone to bust out with:  "It's like ra-a-a-a-a-i-i-i-i-n-n-n-n-n...on your wedding day....  It's a free ri-i-i-i-i-ide when you've already paid...."

 

 

 

I had forgotten it. Until now.:(

 

I guess I'm the only one who sees no chemistry between any two people on this show. I don't see it with Rick/Michonne, and see absolutely zero between Daryl/Caryl. Those two could be brother and sister. I also can't see, and never did see, one bit of chemistry, spark, heat - whatever you want to call "it" -  between Maggie and Glenn in spite of all the kissy face and making out. In fact, they're so passionless (in my eyes) it embarasses me to watch them making out.

 

 

So much this.  I'd love to see Rick and Michonne hook up but if they don't it will hardly ruin the show for me.  I don't expect Kirkman to be cuddly, I expect him to write a good story in his comic books and for the show writers to adapt a version appropriate for television.  

Besides,

Rick is rumored to get together with Jesse, a character we have yet to meet (in the comics it was Andrea), and, as stated, in the comics Michonne has a boyfriend that isn't Rick.

 

 

I don't know if I actively ship anyone, but I really wouldn't mind Michonne hooking up with Rick.  I do see a sort of chemistry between them -- a wee little spark of something (that will probably never evolve into anything).  I first observed it back in the "Clear" episode.  I don't think that all chemistry between men and women is necessarily sexual chemistry -- at least not at first -- though it can turn into that.  Some of it is bred from a mutual respect and understanding, and just having similar sensibilities.  So it's not that I think Michonne and Rick are just bursting at the seams to get in each other's pants, but I think they have developed a true bond and connection.

 

I agree that I've never seen any real chemistry between Maggie and Glenn other than brother-sister-ish stuff.  I think that in a "normal" world, Glenn would be in the Friend Zone with Maggie.  But in this zombie apocalypse world, people are partnering up when they ordinarily would not have.  The desperate circumstances are causing people to look at potential mates that they probably would not have been attracted to or otherwise even met.

 

Since this series began, I've read comments from viewers (across assorted Internet sites) who think it's unrealistic for anyone to be "dating" or thinking about sex at all, while other viewers can't believe that there isn't even more sex and hooking up happening. I tend to fall into the latter category.  I think that sex is a basic human need/animal instinct, and I think that in circumstances such as these -- where these people don't know if they are going to survive on a daily basis and they're in a close group with people of the opposite gender -- people would need that physical connection, and hookups would happen more often than they are happening.   "Dating" would not exist as we know it in this ZA world, but just desperate clinging to some sort of physical release and comfort.

 

Yes, everyone is grubby, dirty, smelly, etc.  But that's the whole point -- everyone is grungy and gross, so it's a level playing field.  It's not like Michonne is clad in an elegant ball gown, tiara and diamonds, smelling of lavender bath salts and herbal shampoo, and would have to suffer with dirty, smelly, musty, sweaty Rick.  They are all smelly and sloppy at this point (but in great shape from all of that walking, running and fighting).

[NoWillToResist]

Okay so my aside from Tyrese dying, my other big gripe with this episode; that Mika and Lizzie were together and Mika didn't take the opportunity to punch Lizzie in the head 20 or 30 times.  Trust me, if my sisters had ever actually killed me (as opposed to threatening to on a daily basis) I would totally come back from the dead just to bite them.

 

On the one hand, I totally hear you on that. On the other hand though, I think Mika was a total sweetheart and well aware that her sister was mentally ill, so I can buy that she wouldn't blame Lizzie for what happened.

 

Of course, them being all buddy-buddy was in Tyreese's head, so it's not surprising to me that everyone was happy and unharmed and driving off to Heaven or whatever. Dude had a marshmallow heart...

[Timetoread]

Don't assume that everyone is opposed to those couples for those reasons.

I don't. But dont assume that many do not either.

On another note, and I don't know if it was intentional, I found that the bedroom of Noahs brother tugged at my heart strings. His room was neat and covered in planes and all manner of tribute to flight. Also he had a telescope. A kid who perhaps wanted to fly or build planes, or even become an astronaut. It brought back home that all the zombies were people and they are victims - each one wasted potential. I found myself sadder about that than Tyrese's impending demise.

[mightysparrow]

Not to make a general sweeping statement....Okay I'm going to make a general sweeping statement...A whole lot of the cops I know, and I know a lot, are married to the stay-at-home ultra feminine type.  And really we can't help what we are attracted to, right?

 

I pray that Richonne never happens, because I think Michonne would be regulated to babysitter/housewife and all her badassery would be gone.  I like that a man and woman can be friends and have respect and NOT go there.  She's to good for Rick anyway :) 

 

I can see a spark between them, but I can also see a spark between Michonne/Daryl, hell even Michonne/Father PP....She has chemistry with EVERYONE.  Such an awesome actress!

 

I completely agree with you. Danai does have chemistry with everyone. She and Chandler work beautifully together. Her scenes with The Governor and with Merle were amazing. The brief scenes between her and Daryl were strong enough to get her some pretty ugly hate mail. Even Hershel got a special twinkle whenever he spoke with Michonne.  The woman's JUST THAT GOOD!

 

I think a relationship with Rick Grimes means a trip to Stepford and I don't wish that for my favorite badass. I'm willing to bet that Lori wasn't such a pain in the butt BEFORE she married Officer Rick. I like Rick Grimes but I don't want him to get too close to Michonne because (as you so brilliantly put it) he doesn't bloody deserve her. He was going to hand her over to the Governor, a move that even his running buddy Daryl thought was messed up.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of women in the ZA who would love to be with Officer Rick. He and the missus can double date with Daryl and Michonne

[SevenStars]

On another note, and I don't know if it was intentional, I found that the bedroom of Noahs brother tugged at my heart strings. His room was neat and covered in planes and all manner of tribute to flight. Also he had a telescope. A kid who perhaps wanted to fly or build planes, or even become an astronaut. It brought back home that all the zombies were people and they are victims - each one wasted potential. I found myself sadder about that than Tyrese's impending demise.

 

I found that sadder too and I think that's why Tyrese reacted so strongly when looking at those pictures on the wall and around the room. He was reminded once again how the world after ZA is now a wasteland of great opportunities, hopes and dreams.  That despite what he was saying in the car, there was really no real hope that this will change anytime soon. For someone who is trying hard to adept in this world that he hates, that's really hard to take in.

[JackONeill]

Speaking only personally, I will add:  Yes, I think sex is a pretty dominant thought and will oftentimes lead us to do things we might not otherwise.  SO, there's that.  The flip side to that is that many in the military eschew getting into close friendships because you never know when you'll go on a mission and you'll return but your friend won't.  So, I also think there's an understandable reluctance to get in too deeply (sorry for the pun)(not really) with someone.  IN fact, I think that was an issue with Glen and Maggie, wasn't it.

[SevenStars]

Speaking only personally, I will add:  Yes, I think sex is a pretty dominant thought and will oftentimes lead us to do things we might not otherwise.  SO, there's that.  The flip side to that is that many in the military eschew getting into close friendships because you never know when you'll go on a mission and you'll return but your friend won't.  So, I also think there's an understandable reluctance to get in too deeply (sorry for the pun)(not really) with someone.  IN fact, I think that was an issue with Glen and Maggie, wasn't it.

 

I think the difference is that in the military, people know that if they only have to suppressed these emotions/instinct for certain amount of time, and if they manage to survive they can go home and fully express these emotions and needs. Therefore, it makes easy for them to do this because they know it has a time limit, its' not forever.

 

But in TWD world, this is it for these people. There is no "after" or "place" for them to safely express these emotions and needs that as human beings they natural have. They have to either become cold unfeeling or find a way to adept in this new world that will give them a way to express these emotions and needs that didn't die when the world went to hell.

[ghoulina]

I found that sadder too and I think that's why Tyrese reacted so strongly when looking at those pictures on the wall and around the room. He was reminded once again how the world after ZA is now a wasteland of great opportunities, hopes and dreams.  That despite what he was saying in the car, there was really no real hope that this will change anytime soon. For someone who is trying hard to adept in this world that he hates, that's really hard to take in.

 

I loved looking around the room too, because I appreciate those little touches that show how sad the loss of the former world is. Tyrese was probably really struggling in that moment. He knew he had to go take care of the walkers in the house, but seeing them as they were when they were alive made it much harder. 

[JackONeill]

 

But in TWD world, this is it for these people. There is no "after" or "place" for them to safely express these emotions and needs that as human beings they natural have. They have to either become cold unfeeling or find a way to adept in this new world that will give them a way to express these emotions and needs that didn't die when the world went to hell.

 

But isn't that what we're seeing in many of the characters - cold, unfeeling.  Ever since Lori died, Rick has struck me that way.  And Michonne in the last episode sounded pretty . . . well, weary.  Not someone who was up for a roll in the hay.

 

I think there's evidence that suggests that once you've been through so much trauma that sex becomes something . . . far away.

Edited February 10, 2015 by JackONeill

[AndySmith]

But I'd say for those reasons, a large portion of the fandom is.

 

Based on what? And what defines a large portion? Vocal minorites aren't always indicative of large portions.

 

But dont assume that many do not either.

 

I'm not the one making assumptions on what an entire fanbase may or may not be thinking.

 

Danai does have chemistry with everyone.

 

Yes she does. Some people are just lucky that way. You can put Michone with just about anyone, and it'll work. Hell, she makes the kid who plays Carl look like a good actor.

 

because (as you so brilliantly put it) he doesn't bloody deserve her.

 

He certainly does not. Then again, Rick is one of my least favorite characters on the show.

 

I think there's evidence that suggests that once you've been through so much trauma that sex becomes something . . . far away.

 

True. But I could see characters hooking up with other characters as random sex buddies just to feel something else, and just for a brief time, forget whatever else is going in the world. Of course, given the lack of condoms and medicine for potential STDs, that might not be the best thing to do in the ZA. Good luck, Abraham and Rosita!

Edited February 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[kikismom]

Speaking only personally, I will add:  Yes, I think sex is a pretty dominant thought and will oftentimes lead us to do things we might not otherwise.  SO, there's that.  The flip side to that is that many in the military eschew getting into close friendships because you never know when you'll go on a mission and you'll return but your friend won't.  So, I also think there's an understandable reluctance to get in too deeply (sorry for the pun)(not really) with someone.  IN fact, I think that was an issue with Glen and Maggie, wasn't it.

There's a great scene, often overlooked, when Martinez is on the roof of the RV with Brillip. There is so much camera focus on DM getting ready to clock Martinez that it stomps on Martinez' lines. Remember how he once said to Daryl I just hate these things because of what they did to my wife and kids.? When they are on top of the RV, the talk is about how Brillip "has a new family" and Martinez says that he couldn't do that again, no, just thinking of maybe loving and getting close to someone and having them taken away again.

 

 

 my other big gripe with this episode; that Mika and Lizzie were together

When I saw them my first thought was why are they in the same afterworld? Is this show telling us that we will all be stuck together, the innocent and the psycho killers?  But then it was Tyreese seeing people he had been tormented about.

 

 

  I think that in a "normal" world, Glenn would be in the Friend Zone with Maggie.  But in this zombie apocalypse world, people are partnering up when they ordinarily would not have.  The desperate circumstances are causing people to look at potential mates that they probably would not have been attracted to or otherwise even met.

It will be like beer goggles, That could be a good meme, or the premise for a SNL skit.

Beginning of the ZA, young lovers. A little farther on, standards slip. Four years later, Rosita Espinoza is wishing Dale was still alive and Carl is complaining that Rick let Clara kill herself I know she was crazy as a shithouse rat and so dirty you thought she was a walker but it was female and had a pulse, Dad! I'm sick of digging through dumpsters for old JC Penney Bra Sale advertisements!

Edited February 10, 2015 by kikismom

[AngelaHunter]

So, I also think there's an understandable reluctance to get in too deeply (sorry for the pun)(not really) with someone.

 

I agree, if one is being logical. However, I feel that all the surging adrenline and the constant close proximity of other warm, still-breathing bodies may override logic. Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

 

Carl is complaining that Rick let Clara kill herself I know she was crazy as a shithouse rat and so dirty you thought she was a walker but it was female and had a pulse, Dad! I'm sick of digging through dumpsters for old JC Penney Bra Sale advertisements!

 

Seriously...tea out of the nose...snorted.

[Too Late Kev]

Well, we obviously disagree on hygiene and its role in evolution. My line would certainly die out because there are certain things my desire to repopulate could not get past.

Hmm...it only quoted the response and not my original post...

 

I was saying what you're saying. Way back when, people didn't worry so much about hygiene. Because Rick's group didn't grow up that way (just as we didn't),  they're probably going to clean up as well as possible before they'd have sex. Scavenge some toothpaste, clean up the usual smelly parts, etc.

 

When Carl is old enough, that might be another story...he was young enough when all this started that he might have been still taking baths, not necessarily daily, and maybe had to be nagged to do it. (Or is that just my kid?)

[BrokenRemote]

That's a relief, I thought it was just me. I was stressing about the cut Noah got on his head the minute it happened - they don't usually throw something like that in for no reason. Damnit.

Okay so my aside from Tyrese dying, my other big gripe with this episode; that Mika and Lizzie were together and Mika didn't take the opportunity to punch Lizzie in the head 20 or 30 times. Trust me, if my sisters had ever actually killed me (as opposed to threatening to on a daily basis) I would totally come back from the dead just to bite them.

Oh god, I nearly choked laughing at this. The mental image alone...

[nodorothyparker]

 

I think a relationship with Rick Grimes means a trip to Stepford and I don't wish that for my favorite badass. I'm willing to bet that Lori wasn't such a pain in the butt BEFORE she married Officer Rick. I like Rick Grimes but I don't want him to get too close to Michonne because (as you so brilliantly put it) he doesn't bloody deserve her. He was going to hand her over to the Governor, a move that even his running buddy Daryl thought was messed up.

 

There's actually a fair bit of evidence that Rick was a pretty passive partner in that relationship, both from what we actually saw and the stories each told about their life together.  Lori was always trying to provoke a reaction out of him and then getting angry when he didn't react the way she wanted.  Hell, Rick was so passive he figured out the Lori-Shane thing long before she admitted it and then still barely reacted when she did.  I'd be really curious to see if he'd fall into the same pattern with another woman, particularly one who challenges him, or if it would totally different now that he's battled for and lost his control more than once.  

I honestly don't care that much either way since while I fall into the camp of thinking it's somewhat unrealistic that only Glenn and Maggie and apparently Rosita and Abraham have gotten laid in the last year, I don't have any investment in any particular pairing.

 

I'll admit I will be surprised if they ever hook Rick and Michonne up, mostly because I think we all know how some people would be about that and because this show draws an audience that is just fine with every kind of graphic violence that can be dreamed up but acts like a bunch of puritanical 5-year-olds when the issue of any kind of sex comes up.  I also think we're supposed to forget that Rick was ever going to hand Michonne over to the Gov.  She clearly has let it go, but then she can't really carry a grudge about it without also being mad at Herschel and Daryl, both of whom knew about it and at best made a few weak noises on the subject before sitting back passively and letting it happen until Rick came to his own realization it was a bad idea.

Edited February 10, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[SometimesBites]

But this show really loves to kill off black people and women too much (unless they are a villain). That needs to change. 

I keep trying to evaluate this claim (it gets leveled at the show a lot), and to be perfectly honest, when I list all the characters who've died--whether or not they are strong primary characters (Shane, Lori) or short-term minor characters (Otis, Karen), it looks like men and women are really close (but tipping slightly to more men having died) and more white characters than characters of color having been offed. I may be forgetting some, but that's how my list breaks out. If you look at percentages, that's a different set of numbers, but simply listing male/female and black/white, I don't see the claimed discrepancy.

[BrokenRemote]

I keep trying to evaluate this claim (it gets leveled at the show a lot), and to be perfectly honest, when I list all the characters who've died--whether or not they are strong primary characters (Shane, Lori) or short-term minor characters (Otis, Karen), it looks like men and women are really close (but tipping slightly to more men having died) and more white characters than characters of color having been offed. I may be forgetting some, but that's how my list breaks out. If you look at percentages, that's a different set of numbers, but simply listing male/female and black/white, I don't see the claimed discrepancy.

The thing is, you're right in terms of sheer numbers dead. But when you consider how few black characters there are or have been, then it's a giant percentage.

Also, when there are 2 black characters and one dies, that leaves only 1, which is a far different impact than having 12 white characters and having 1 die. You can't just dismiss the percentages here when we're already talking tiny numbers. And when every time a new black character comes along one of the others almost immediately dies...

Edited February 10, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[nodorothyparker]

The show really didn't help itself to diffuse this claim when they had three dead blonde girls and the last black character to die counseling yet another black man that it was okay to join them.

[SevenStars]

I keep trying to evaluate this claim (it gets leveled at the show a lot), and to be perfectly honest, when I list all the characters who've died--whether or not they are strong primary characters (Shane, Lori) or short-term minor characters (Otis, Karen), it looks like men and women are really close (but tipping slightly to more men having died) and more white characters than characters of color having been offed. I may be forgetting some, but that's how my list breaks out. If you look at percentages, that's a different set of numbers, but simply listing male/female and black/white, I don't see the claimed discrepancy.

 

I think people see a discrepancy because of the amount of white characters on the show and little amount of black ones. So the show killing more white characters doesn't really affect their numbers because there were a good amount of them to begin with and the show keeps bringing more in. For every one or two black characters they bring, the show also bring in at least 3 or more white characters. So when a black character dies, you can really see the diminishing number of them on the show, while you can't really say that about white characters. I think this is why people talk about it so much. 

[kikismom]

Dougal, you didn't put fresh batteries in the smoke alarm!

Edited February 10, 2015 by kikismom

[kikismom]

is the car horn stuck or what?

Edited February 10, 2015 by kikismom

[AngelaHunter]

Way back when, people didn't worry so much about hygiene. Because Rick's group didn't grow up that way (just as we didn't),  they're probably going to clean up as well as possible before they'd have sex.

 

True. In the Middle Ages, some people may have had two baths over a lifetime and yet they managed to procreate, probably because the odours from both people cancelled each other out, and their olfactory bulbs were (luckily) paralyzed.

 

Now we're at the opposite end and people are supposed to emit an artificial aroma, of flowers, cherry candy or Irish springs, from every orifice.

 

And yes, Rick's group would probably clean up at least the smelliest parts before goin' to town.

[kj4ever]

I don't get Tyreese's whole "I don't want to kill walkers" deal, even if the bedroom reminded him of how those kids were before.

 

I would think the kind, ethical thing would be to kill every walker in sight, because I don't know a human being that would want that to happen to their body after their minds were lost.

[SevenStars]

I don't get Tyreese's whole "I don't want to kill walkers" deal, even if the bedroom reminded him of how those kids were before.

 

I would think the kind, ethical thing would be to kill every walker in sight, because I don't know a human being that would want that to happen to their body after their minds were lost.

 

I think he get go lost in memories and emotions.  It had nothing do with him not wanting to kill the walkers in the house, it just that he got lose in his head before he could do that.

[SometimesBites]

You can't just dismiss the percentages here when we're already talking tiny numbers.

Actually, I didn't dismiss the percentages, thus my statement: "If you look at percentages, that's a different set of numbers."

 

However, when it comes to deaths, even talking percentages gets a little tricky. Very true, a few more than half the black characters that I could remember have died (my count was approximately 9 dead, 5 still alive = 45% dead). When I tally the currently living non-black characters next to the dead non-black characters, I actually get a higher percentage of deaths (approximately 24 dead, 11 still alive = 54% dead). We could also be asking why none of the Asian characters EVER die...but I love you, Glenn, and if he dies, 100% of the Asian characters has been killed off.

 

The better observation might be that the cast could do with a SERIOUS influx of characters of color! JMO.

[SevenStars]

The better observation might be that the cast could do with a SERIOUS influx of characters of color! JMO.

 

This is what I assume people mean when they complain about the fact that almost every time a new black character is introduce, a current black character get kills. It's like the show have a quota for black characters and they don't want to go over it.

[SometimesBites]

I think people see a discrepancy because of the amount of white characters on the show and little amount of black ones. So the show killing more white characters doesn't really affect their numbers because there were a good amount of them to begin with and the show keeps bringing more in. For every one or two black characters they bring, the show also bring in at least 3 or more white characters. So when a black character dies, you can really see the diminishing number of them on the show, while you can't really say that about white characters. I think this is why people talk about it so much. 

Totally agree, and would totally love to see more POC in the cast. I just think a blanket claim that more women die than men, or a greater % of black characters die than white characters isn't accurate and doesn't address the real issue, which is, let's see more characters of color across the board.

[kj4ever]

I think he get go lost in memories and emotions.  It had nothing do with him not wanting to kill the walkers in the house, it just that he got lose in his head before he could do that.

I meant in general, like when he handed Carol his penis that one time because he just didn't want to kill one.

[SevenStars]

I meant in general, like when he handed Carol his penis that one time because he just didn't want to kill one.

 

Without making this a penis>vagina thing, I will say I agree with you. I just think some part of him saw those walkers as still being human beings/alive, therefore, it was hard for him to just kill them with the easy that the others do it. This is why I don't mind him dying because I think death might have been a better solution for him.

[AngelaHunter]

I meant in general, like when he handed Carol his penis that one time because he just didn't want to kill one.

 

Oh yes, not long after little girl Lizzie had to shoot Alisha in the head to save his ass.

[kikismom]

Oh yes, not long after little girl Lizzie had to shoot Alisha in the head to save his ass.

Such a shame she was crazy and killed Mika. She and Carl may differ on walkers being dead or not, but they both love blasting people. It could have worked.

Edited February 11, 2015 by kikismom

[nodorothyparker]

Here's where some of the perception comes from, at least on my end.  When I start trying to tally the characters who have died, excepting Milton who I loved, I don't count obvious villains or outsiders who have almost overwhelmingly been white men.  We expect them to do their thing and then die.  I also don't count characters who were only around for a scene or two and had no real purpose except as zombie chow.  I count members of our gang, the people we're supposed to be rooting for.

 

The last white male from our group to die was Herschel.  In addition to Merle and Ed, who probably don't get to be considered good guys but were part of the group, we've lost Jim, Otis, Dale, Axel, and Shane.

 

Among the women we've lost Amy, Jacqui, Sophia, Andrea, Patricia, Lori, Karen, Beth, Lizzie, and Mika, all but three of whom were pretty blonde things.  We've also lost four black men, T-Dog, Oscar, Bob, and now Tyreese, who appear to operating under Highlander rules that there can be only one.

Edited February 11, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[AngelaHunter]

Such a shame she was crazy and killed Mika.

 

A real shame. She could have been a stone cold primo bad ass.

[GreyBunny]

Totally agree, and would totally love to see more POC in the cast. I just think a blanket claim that more women die than men, or a greater % of black characters die than white characters isn't accurate and doesn't address the real issue, which is, let's see more characters of color across the board.

 

In watching the last episode I noticed that of the five people there, only one was a white person.  I thought, "Cool! I'd like to see more of this!"  Then Tyreese got snuffed.  Boo.

 

In season 4 I was hoping Dr. Caleb Subramanian would stick around because I really liked him and it would double the Asian representation.  No luck.  

Edited February 11, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Macbeth]

We didn't get one more Tyreese and Judith scene.  So sad.

 

Tyreese looking at the lovely family photos was thinking of kinder, gentler times.  Tyreese was looking at the flowers when one of the flowers bit him.

[kikismom]

Here's where some of the perception comes from, at least on my end.  When I start trying to tally the characters who have died, excepting Milton who I loved, I don't count obvious villains or outsiders who have almost overwhelmingly been white men.  We expect them to do their thing and then die.  I also don't count characters who were only around for a scene or two and had no real purpose except as zombie chow.  I count members of our gang, the people we're supposed to be rooting for.

 

The last white male from our group to die was Herschel.  In addition to Merle and Ed, who probably don't get to be considered good guys but were part of the group, we've lost Jim, Otis, Dale, Axel, and Shane.

 

Among the women we've lost Amy, Jacqui, Sophia, Andrea, Patricia, Lori, Karen, Beth, Lizzie, and Mika, all but three of whom were pretty blonde things.  We've also lost four black men, T-Dog, Oscar, Bob, and now Tyreese, who appear to operating under Highlander rules that there can be only one.

Are we counting now, and doing percentages?

Well, we just started with

Rick Carl Judith Maggie Carol Daryl Tara and Eugene. are white  8 people.

Michonne, Sasha, Tyreese, Noah, Father Gabriel.are black. 5 people.

Glenn is Asian. 1 person.

Rosita is Hispanic/Latino  1 person.

 

Then we lost Tyreese. (number of black characters is now 4.)

The group now numbers 14 people. (DId I miss anyone?)

The US Census (as of 5 days ago) says the demographic percentages for race/ethnicity are white---77.7%, black---13.2%, Asian---5.3%, and Hispanic/Latino---17.1%.

 

For our group to reflect American demographics (if that is what anyone wants to assure), 77.7% percent white would be 10.87 white characters, almost 11.

13.2% black  would be 1.8 black characters, almost 2.

5.3% Asian would be  .74 Asians

And 17.1% Hispanic/Latino would be 2.39 Hispanic/Latino characters, almost 3.

 

So, as a representative group of Americans randomly becoming a group,  CDB is short on white, Asian, and Hispanic/Latino. Blacks are represented better in CDB than in the U.S. as a whole, Hispanic/Latinos really got screwed (and someone should be noticing that Morales family had to go before the Vatos could be cast, and the Vatos had to die before Martinez could show up, and Martinez had to die before Rosita could be in the cast.)

Glenn, by these numbers, should have been the one whose leg was cut off, not Herschel, because Glenn would only be 74 % of a person.

 

Is everyone a happy camper now?  :-D

Edited February 11, 2015 by kikismom