S05.E06: Episode 6

[majormama]

Back to the sidesaddle issue. I learned to ride Western, so this may just be a difference of style, but I learned to control a horse primarily with my legs. The reins are there for extra emphasis, but the legs are what guide the horse. I've never understood how someone can ride sidesaddle for anything more than a casual outing on a calm horse if you can't use both legs for control, let alone keeping your seat. Is this different in English style riding? Also, if you have one leg locked in place in a side saddle, what happens if you start to fall or the horse bolts? Is it easy to get out of quickly? Exactly how dangerous was it for Mary to race sidesaddle?

[ZoloftBlob]

You bring up a lot of excellent points--and most of them address the class issue (also a great discussion worth having).  I was addressing a gender issue--the point I was making was that the poster was extremely harsh on Edith for having "selfish" sex and didn't bother to mention the other half of the equation--Gregson.

 

The gender issue is ignored because Gregson is dead and when he wasn't officially dead, we all knew he wasn't coming back. The only time the gender issue was ever addressed was way back in season three, when otherwise open minded Matthew made the same point I made to Gregson - that regardless of love, Gregson was still married to another woman and that's not ok.

 

Fellowes always deals with the gender issue poorly. Gregson died, Ethel's lover died, Tony the otherwise nice guy is revealed to be awful the second he sluts about with Mary, Pamuk dies after premarital intercourse with Mary....With rare exception, while the men face little public scorn, they do usually end up dead.

 

I don't dislike Edith, but I don't entirely see her as a victim of her family and her time. Gregson with the wife, the crazy wife, was throwing up some huge red flags, and having been raised far more strictly and aware of how certain things are BAD, that Edith did decide to have sex with a married man hardly makes her his victim. Edith's night of sex is a rare occasion on this show where there's no hint that the woman might have been forced. Edtih knew was she was doing, and knew the risks. And all of the hiding and plopping Marigold in different places has been Edith trying to avoid the consequences of her decisions.

[Avaleigh]

She didn't ask at all. When Edith silently rose and headed for the door, Mary stood in her path and sneered, "I suppose you disapprove" and the family dynamic defaulted to "Mary's a princess/Edith's a pill."

 

 

I think so. First she made that nasty remark to Anna, then she asked if she was looking frumpy (so she hadn't yet made the appointment), then she talked about showing the fellows what they were missing -- even though she's not crazy about Blake, and she's actually trying to unload Gillingham. Edith was the center of attention for once, and Mary couldn't stand it.

 

So what's the point of Spratt and the lady's maid? If he quits his job, he'll be free to talk about Lady Mary in Liverpool.

I don't think Mary felt threatened by Edith being the center of attention. I doubt she sees it that way. Mary is just self centered and it didn't occur to her for a second that Edith would take something like a haircut so personally. She wasn't even expecting compliments from Edith and if Edith has simply excused herself there wouldn't have been an unpleasant scene. Edith seized the opportunity to remind everyone that they aren't being respectful enough of Gregson's memory or of her pain and I haven't once seen Edith acknowledge that she's being unfair in her own way when she continues to lie and deceive her family all the while crying about how she's the one who's being poorly treated. 

 

Anyway, we've seen Edith be the center of attention before, this isn't something that's unheard of. She's found ways to get positive attention in every season so this business of Gregson's death isn't the one time she's been the center of attention. 

 

Edtih knew was she was doing, and knew the risks. And all of the hiding and plopping Marigold in different places has been Edith trying to avoid the consequences of her decisions.

I agree. Edith doesn't seem like she takes the time to examine her own behavior in terms of why she's so often unhappy. Edith's choices and behavior are a large part of why she is where she is and why she's so unhappy but Edith rarely seems to look to herself and often seems to blame others for her unhappiness and that can be frustrating to watch after five seasons.

[jschoolgirl]

When Mary made the remark about getting frumpy I immediately thought she'd gained a few pounds because the cunning little device didn't do its job.

Edited February 13, 2015 by jschoolgirl

[beeble]

Back to the sidesaddle issue. I learned to ride Western, so this may just be a difference of style, but I learned to control a horse primarily with my legs. The reins are there for extra emphasis, but the legs are what guide the horse. I've never understood how someone can ride sidesaddle for anything more than a casual outing on a calm horse if you can't use both legs for control, let alone keeping your seat. Is this different in English style riding? Also, if you have one leg locked in place in a side saddle, what happens if you start to fall or the horse bolts? Is it easy to get out of quickly? Exactly how dangerous was it for Mary to race sidesaddle?

My grandmother rode sidesaddle, and I learned just a bit from her. I was nervous at the time because I'd only ridden on a traditional English saddle, but I was surprised by how secure I was and how much control I had. There has to be more core work, or course, to stay balanced during cantering, and the horse has to be trained to get signals from one leg and from signals from the reins.  It's a cool way to ride, although I'm sure as hell not going to do a steeple chase in a skirt and sidesaddle.  

[Constantinople]

So Carson thinks telegrams are bad news?

Have they ever been good news on this show? I honestly don't remember, but I don't recall any.

Offhand the telegrams that I remember were about the sinking of the Titanic and the declaration of war against Germany. I can't remember if there was a telegram when Matthew and William were MIA during the war.

Regarding Edith's behavior after Mary showed off her new do:

Mary could have reacted a little better but I'm blaming Edith on this one

1. Gregson has been missing for 2 years, if not a little longer. If Edith thought Gregson was returning, she needs to be locked-up next to Mrs Gregson (and good call on whomever pointed out that Gregson went missing long before the Beer Hall putsch). Just what type and period of mourning does Edith expect from her family for her married lover?

2. They had guests or at least a guest, Rose's new boyfriend (Atticus?). If Edith can't be civil when guests are around, she should have excused herself beforehand.

[SilverShadow]

Edith seized the opportunity to remind everyone that they aren't being respectful enough of Gregson's memory or of her pain [...]

 

I don't really see it that way. Edith had had enough and got up and went for the door. Mary was the one who saw her leaving, clearly upset, and stopped her and asked for her opinion. I can't fault Edith for snapping and basically saying, "Do you honestly think I give the tiniest tiniest fuck about your goddamn hair right now?" And once she started, it became this huge emotional thing, which can happen when you are depressed and vulnerable and someone decided this is a great time to push your buttons.

 

I don't fault Mary for getting the haircut, and while I do look askance at her needing to show off and make a scene, even that is somewhat understandable given her character. But she went out of her way to try and force Edith into acknowleding it and giving her attention, when she'd already gotten it from every other person in the room (except maybe Atticus). Plus, Edith had gone into full mourning, which is a pretty giant sign that she was emotional and upset and not in the mood to messed with. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by SilverShadow

[Badger]

I think Mary was just feeling frumpy after seeing the uberstylish Miss Lane Fox.

[shipperx]

Isn't it amazing how those whorey rich dilettantes just get themselves pregnant? Mrs. Drewe has to sleep with Mr. Drewe but that rich beyotch Edith could just do it all on her own, almost as though her lover had nothing to do with it. Amazing what money can do!

I have to admit that I haven't seen any scene featuring Mrs Drewe that indicates that she makes 100% objectively rational accusations. Frankly she comes off a tad bit possessive with a bit of hint of a tendency to paranoia.

Objectively, what has Edith done in Mrs Drewe's sight and knowing to utterly convince Mrs Drewe so very stridently that Edith viewed Marigold as a toy or that she was just being dilletante about Marigold? It's a good righteous accusation to throw out, but it really doesn't coincide with Mrs Drewe's behavior or Edith's behavior or the specific things Drew is complaining about. It's a non sequitur.

Mrs Drewe's actual complaints are that Edith interrupts the schedule (i.e Edith shows up a lot). Mrs Drewe gets wild eyed and thinks Edith did more than baby sit and might have absconded with the child -- so she's fearing Edith is too attached ( when all that Edith did was step outside the door on a sunny day. She never left the property). That Edith is too clingy to Marigold. and she brought her aunt to see the kid. Mrs Drewe then proceeds to refuse to let Edith see the child. Now, Mrs. Drewe's words may be that Edith is a dilletante who will grow bored of Marigold, but that's a non sequitur from her actual complaints. All of her actual complaints are that Edith is there TOO much, is TOO attached, and TOO attentive. And it is mrs Drewe barring Edith the door rather than Edith 'tiring' of Marigold, so If Mrs Drewe was actually afraid of Edith doing emotional harm by someday just dropping out of Marigold's life (because as a dilletante she got 'bored') then Mrs Drewe deliberately brought about the exact circumstances she was ostensibly complaining about.

Clearly, whatever her words, what Mrs Drewe was actually afraid of was Edith becoming too attached and too omnipresent in their lives, which would be legitimate complaints for an adopted mother to have! But... Um....they are entirely different from what Mrs Drewe claims she's complaining about.

It would be entirely defensible on Mrs Drewe's part to be possessive and to not want Edith usurping her. But it comes off as passive aggressive for Mrs Drewe to invert her real complaints (that Edith is there too often and is too attached) with polar opposite accusations that Edith is a dilletante about it. Mrs Drewe doesn't know Edith well because the Drewe's only moved to the farm at the end of last season and at the largesse of the Crawleys. Nor is she aware of Edith having placed Marigold in a home, so those are not things that Mrs Drewe is placing her 'dilletante' judgement on. I can only suppose the 'dilletante' accusations are a class issue for Mrs Drewe. The specific things she's actually complaining of don't support her accusations. Basically, it really boils down to mrs Drewe being possessive and feeling an existential relationship threat to her position as Marigold's adoptive mother which... Fair enough! But that should be owned as the actual beef. Denying it and inverting it makes it somewhat more psychologically ... Intriguing.

{snip}

(The whole argument is making me tired)

Edited February 14, 2015 by photo fox

[Calamity Jane]

Back to the sidesaddle issue. I learned to ride Western, so this may just be a difference of style, but I learned to control a horse primarily with my legs. The reins are there for extra emphasis, but the legs are what guide the horse. I've never understood how someone can ride sidesaddle for anything more than a casual outing on a calm horse if you can't use both legs for control, let alone keeping your seat. Is this different in English style riding? Also, if you have one leg locked in place in a side saddle, what happens if you start to fall or the horse bolts? Is it easy to get out of quickly? Exactly how dangerous was it for Mary to race sidesaddle?

I've never ridden sidesaddle, but I learned English style.  There are two reins, one for stopping the horse, one for direction.  You sort of thread the lower one between the pinky and ring fingers, upper rein between middle and index fingers.  We used the knees (and a crop) for urging forward, sitting forward at the same time.  I don't see how you could control a horse sidesaddle without two reins because it's as you say, no nudging with the knees is possible.  I'm sure others are much more knowledgeable about it.

[JudyObscure]

It must have been terrifying for Edith to find herself pregnant.  Yes she took a selfish risk but she had been in love for quite a while and it's not always easy to resist that sort of temptation indefinitely.  She wouldn't have been the first woman to tell herself,  "it won't happen to me."

 

So there she is pregnant, with no idea what to do, and the two women she probably trusts most in the world, her wise grandmother and her revered, sophisticated aunt are united in telling her that the only possible thing to consider (after she refused abortion) was to go away, have the baby, and give the child into foster care.   They probably presented the Schroeder family to her as a fate accompli while Edith was still flat on her back in the "nursing" home. What mental or practical resources did she have to fight against them?  Could she go online and research other possibilities?  Did she know any women of her class who had kept their illegitimate children with them? Did she even have a friend her age to discuss this with?  Did she have any reason to believe that if she told her parents they would say anything different than her grandmother did?  It would have just been two more people who knew about her disgrace and she may have had reason to believe that her father would kick her out.  That was still a very common reaction.

 

 Edith had know way of knowing that the initial pain of giving up her child would not go away, even after she went home to Downton. When she brought the child to the Drewes she thought it would ease her pain but it was only making things worse.  She has made some bad decisions all along, but I think they're understandable considering her lack of options. I think she's finally listening to her instincts and is hoping to do the best for her child  from this point on.  This time without listening to the persuasion of others.

Edited February 14, 2015 by photo fox
quoted post was deleted

[Andorra]

 

She wouldn't have been the first woman to tell herself,  "it won't happen to me."

 

AND she probably didn't even know that it could happen at the first time or what you could do to prevent it. AND she might have trusted Michael. In her generation women didn't know much about sex anyway. She probably had a vague idea of the act, but that was it. No knowledge about contraception at all and a general trust that men magically knew what they were doing and what was best.

 

We know now that Violet was ready to abandon HER children for that sleazy Russian prince and only the intervention of the princess brought her to her senses. But that's of course Violet, our beloved snarky Dowager countess. No one would call HER a hussy. She probably was just unhappy in her marriage.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Andorra

[PRgal]

AND she probably didn't even know that it could happen at the first time or what you could do to prevent it. AND she might have trusted Michael. In her generation women didn't know much about sex anyway. She probably had a vague idea of the act, but that was it. No knowledge about contraception at all and a general trust that men magically knew what they were doing and what was best.

 

We know now that Violet was ready to abandon HER children for that sleazy Russian prince and only the intervention of the princess brought her to her senses. But that's of course Violet, our beloved snarky Dowager countess. No one would call HER a hussy. She probably was just unhappy in her marriage.

 

Many aristocratic/upper class women had lovers back in the day.  But they were married and already had a kid or two.  Unmarried women were, on the other hand, outed as hussies.

[DHDancer]

Back to the sidesaddle issue. I learned to ride Western, so this may just be a difference of style, but I learned to control a horse primarily with my legs. The reins are there for extra emphasis, but the legs are what guide the horse. I've never understood how someone can ride sidesaddle for anything more than a casual outing on a calm horse if you can't use both legs for control, let alone keeping your seat. Is this different in English style riding? Also, if you have one leg locked in place in a side saddle, what happens if you start to fall or the horse bolts? Is it easy to get out of quickly? Exactly how dangerous was it for Mary to race sidesaddle?

 

A whip is used to direct the right side of the horse (ie replaces the leg).  And actually on a well trained horse, you can do a lot by adusting your weight and body position: legs are really a secondary aid.  (I did dressage for a number of years, as well as Hunters)  -- always astride, never sidesaddle!  I found riding hard enough without the challenge of that!

Edited February 13, 2015 by DHDancer

[Constantinople]

I don't fault Mary for getting the haircut, and while I do look askance at her needing to show off and make a scene, even that is somewhat understandable given her character.

Are you referring to Mary showing off her new hairdo, or showing it off in the context of telegram arriving the day before stating what everyone already knew for 2 years?

I ask because St Sybil did the exact same thing when she showed off her new dress/frock/whatever in Season 1. Of course, Edith hadn't received a telegram the day before stating that Patrick Crawley had drowned over a year ago, but no doubt Edith was grumpy about something.

 

But she went out of her way to try and force Edith into acknowleding it and giving her attention, when she'd already gotten it from every other person in the room (except maybe Atticus).

I disagree. After Mary entered the room, Isobel and Cora complimented Mary's new look. Rose addressed Mary and introduced Atticus to her, after which Mary spoke to Rose and Atticus. Mary asked Lady Violet what she thought (thumbs down), Tom interjected his opinion, then Mary asked Lord G what he thought. During this time, Edith shot Mary a death glare, though I don't know if Mary noticed. Mary didn't even address Edith until after Edith rose from her chair in a huff with a heavy sigh and then started to walk away.

 

Plus, Edith had gone into full mourning, which is a pretty giant sign that she was emotional and upset and not in the mood to messed with.

Then Edith shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[shipperx]

St. Sybil was 17. Mary is about 30. Still I don't begrudge her the hair cut or the fabulous dress. It is somewhat juvenile (though Anna called it 'cruel' which seemed a bit much) to want to show up Mabel Lane after she stole her fiancé, sexed him up, and then tossed him back like a trout she decided was too small. And in an effort to make Gillingham and Blake 'see what they're missing' when Gillingham asked her to marry him and she spurned him and is actively directing him back to his ex. Plus add in Blake who lost the Marystakes to Gillingham who is getting the heave ho. It's all a bit Regina George 12th grade antics for a 30 year old woman.

As to the scene twirling the haircut. No, she didn't consciously go out to hurt Edith. Edith didn't factor. Mary's plan was to look fabulous for the aforementioned Marystakes. That said, Edith's meltdown coming on the heels of 'very bad news' revealed that Edith was having a very bad, terrible, awful, no good day -- whether anyone else felt that way or not--and if Edith tearfully wants walk off, for God's sake let her. Lectures on what dreary buzzkill Edith happens to be don't have to pop out of ones mouth the moment one thinks it. It's okay to save the snark for amother day and let her slink off and cry on her own. There's no need to escalate.

Edited February 13, 2015 by shipperx

[fishcakes]

Speaking of Gillingham, I feel like we missed an episode. Last week, he looked like he was heading down the road to a restraining order (or whatever the equivalent would be back then, Bates killing him to make him go away, maybe) and this week, I don't think he even spoke to Mary.

[RedHawk]

Poor Edith. We must remember that she is under the complete control of a dominating man who seems to want to toy with her emotions, constantly setting her up for happiness and then pulling it away from her. If you see her actions as "selfish" or call her "a whore" please recall that it's only because she has become what this evil man wants her to be. She can make no move nor speak without his leave. Edith has no choice, she must be what Julian Fellowes forces her to be. I pity her deeply.

[herbaltease]

I took my sweet time catching up with this series because, my God, has it ever become dull.  I've got a chatty coworker that likes to talk soap, though, so here I come crawling back.  This episode has been the most satisfactory for me, thus far.  Can't believe Mr. Fellowes actually managed to introduce a new character I can enjoy, but that Mabel Lane Fox is just the right amount of thorn-in-the-side for Mary while not sacrificing her own self-respect.  I like her.  She should stay.

 

Let's see, what else?  Isobel and Violet have been the only standouts all season long, IMO.  They're my favorite couple on DA.  I'm happy to hear Isobel seems to want to marry Lord Merton.  I think they're cute together.  Just about as cute as Rose and tall, goofy dude whose name skips my mind at the moment.  He can stay, too.

 

Also, THANK EVERYTHING THAT IS WORTH THANKING that this secret child storyline starring red-headed stepchild Edith seems to be coming to a close.  Whomever the actress is playing Mrs. Drew chewed some scenery in that scene where Marigold was finally claimed.  Glad for her; hope it opens some doors.  As for Edith: she's got her own money and now, a business.  I think she and her daughter will be all right, in the long run.  

 

Mr. and Mrs. Bates: glad he's still not a murderer.  He shouldn't be taking his insecurities on on her, though.  Anna gave him half the truth about the birth control.  I hope that's where they leave it.

 

Mary.  What can I say about you, Mary?  I like her haircut.

 

Lastly, Cora.  Her art enthusiast friend should've respected her as the lady he allegedly believed her to be and never crept into her bedroom.  Rude.  But at this point, I wouldn't blame her for indulging in a little extramarital fun with someone who is not him.  I think she'd enjoy herself, and Robert is an ass, so.  Yeah.

 

Hope the rest of the season keeps up at this clip, but I'm dubious. 

[kpw801]

I agree with your whole post, Shipperx, but particularly this part, which I don't think gets enough weight in the arguments.

 

It must have been terrifying for Edith to find herself pregnant.  Yes she took a selfish risk but she had been in love for quite a while and it's not always easy to resist that sort of temptation indefinitely.  She wouldn't have been the first woman to tell herself,  "it won't happen to me."

 

So there she is pregnant, with no idea what to do, and the two women she probably trusts most in the world, her wise grandmother and her revered, sophisticated aunt are united in telling her that the only possible thing to consider (after she refused abortion) was to go away, have the baby, and give the child into foster care.   They probably presented the Schroeder family to her as a fate accompli while Edith was still flat on her back in the "nursing" home. What mental or practical resources did she have to fight against them?  Could she go online and research other possibilities?  Did she know any women of her class who had kept their illegitimate children with them? Did she even have a friend her age to discuss this with?  Did she have any reason to believe that if she told her parents they would say anything different than her grandmother did?  It would have just been two more people who knew about her disgrace and she may have had reason to believe that her father would kick her out.  That was still a very common reaction.

 

 Edith had know way of knowing that the initial pain of giving up her child would not go away, even after she went home to Downton. When she brought the child to the Drewes she thought it would ease her pain but it was only making things worse.  She has made some bad decisions all along, but I think they're understandable considering her lack of options. I think she's finally listening to her instincts and is hoping to do the best for her child  from this point on.  This time without listening to the persuasion of others.

And let's not forget post partum depression.  There are some women who really suffer with it so much that it becomes psychosis.  She was probably teetering on the verge of that anyway with the "stalking" behaviors.  If you factor in PPD and the loss of Michael Gregson, a lot of her behavior is understandable.

[lucindabelle]

So was Edith the real mother when she was breastfeeding and taking care of Marigold, then ceased to be when Mrs Drewe cared for her for a few months?

I suspect... Probably giving too much credit to the writing.l. That the real reason mrs drewe hated edith was a subconscious knowing of the truth.

Edith didn't steal marigold or kidnap her. She had never given her up.

As for being a buzzkill, perceptive Anna said it best "He died for her today."

Carson and mrs Hughes to live happily ever after!

Are we seeing the beginning of a thomas redemption arc?

[Merneith]

The real reason Mrs. Drewe hates Edith is because she's caught Edith kissing Mr. Drew a few years back (season 2, when Edith was driving tractors during the war). Finding Edith hanging around all the time would have been unwelcome even if Mrs Drewe hadn't suspected (and quite rightly, too!) that Edith was also going to take the baby.

 

I said it before - she really has no respect for other peoples' husbands (or other peoples' feelings.)

 

And that's why posters are saying that Edith isn't really Marigold's mother. She's not doing what she's doing for Marigold's best interests - she's doing it because the only person who matters to Edith, is Edith.

[mojito]

 

The real reason Mrs. Drewe hates Edith is because she's caught Edith kissing Mr. Drew a few years back (season 2, when Edith was driving tractors during the war).

I've seen every episode of Downton Abbey, but I don't seem to retain/study/rewatch this show as others do. I have no recollection of this kissing event or so, so many things that people can recall at the drop of a hat.

 

I'm still questioning if there was a Mrs. Gregson (is that the name) or if she existed, was actually insane.

 

Are there others who can't remember shit (CRS, a syndrome well known to many people north of 50) but watch the show with more an appreciation for current events than seasons-ago history? Me, I'm all about Violet and Isobel, Carson, Mrs. Hughes, Thomas, Mrs. Pattmore, and Anna (the Bateses as a couple are trying my patience, what with the lack of communication between them).

[lucindabelle]

Nah that was a different farmer.

Edith's lonely. She shares no more blame for that kiss than the farmer does... Less, in fact, he's the one who'd made a vow.

And there's simply no evidence that edith doesn't love marigold. I don't think she's been disrespectful of mrs drew. It's mrs drewe who's slammed the door in her face. And it is her daughter whom she breastfed for months.

Edith had sex once, one time. She's kissed someone once. Nobody's calling rose out for her fling with a married man (nor should they). This is not about sex but motherhood.

Edited February 14, 2015 by photo fox
edited for tone

[ZoloftBlob]

The real reason Mrs. Drewe hates Edith is because she's caught Edith kissing Mr. Drew a few years back (season 2, when Edith was driving tractors during the war). Finding Edith hanging around all the time would have been unwelcome even if Mrs Drewe hadn't suspected (and quite rightly, too!) that Edith was also going to take the baby.

 

While I agree with you completely that Edith need to mind herself around other peoples husbands, the guy in season two that she was smooching was not Mr. Drewe, it was the farmer with the wife and the heart disease from season one.

 

But yes, there's a point where Edith needs to own the fact that its not cutesy adorable that she went after that farmer despite clearly knowing he was married, and she wasn't the victim of cruelty when *that wife* kicked her to the curb rather than accept her free tractor driving and possible husband stealing. It also wasn't cutesy adorable that she knowingly slept with a married man because well, "bitch be crazy and I need love".  And while I don't think she was flirting with Mr. Drewe, I can certainly see why Mrs. Drewe might have wondered as Edith had constant not so secret meetings with him, as he took Edith's side in various fights, and all around seemed to be having an affair with her.

 

Edith has a remarkable, and consistent, lack of awareness of how her actions are perceived.

[lucindabelle]

I think you're too hard on edith and gregson. Gregson legally could not divorce his wife, and the wife was not with it enough to even mind,

People do fall in love and sometimes can't marry. Spencer Tracy and katherine Hepburn anyone?

The insane wife in an asylum (or attic) is a little contrived but if we assume it's true it's an awful situation and again, I just can't be too hard on edith for succumbing to be with the man she loved. She wasn't thinking about the crazy woman and I think it's asking way too much that she should, in today's workd gregson could have gotten a legal divorce and he was in Europe trying to do just that.

[ZoloftBlob]

In today's world Edith could have as many children as she wanted with no public censure at all.... But adultery would still mean that crazy Mrs. Gregson would win the divorce even now. I'm probably harder on Gregson, truth be told, because he's the one who took the vow but Edith isn't really that innocent. I mean, she really had no problem shaming Mary over premarital sex when she had the chance, so she clearly knew that it was wrong. She's not so sheltered that its beyond her experience. I totally get that she probably didn't expect to get pregnant or that Gregson would disappear (to give him credit, he did seem to care about her) and I can feel bad for her in that respect but she's often very self focused.

[helenamonster]

Poor Edith. We must remember that she is under the complete control of a dominating man who seems to want to toy with her emotions, constantly setting her up for happiness and then pulling it away from her. If you see her actions as "selfish" or call her "a whore" please recall that it's only because she has become what this evil man wants her to be. She can make no move nor speak without his leave. Edith has no choice, she must be what Julian Fellowes forces her to be. I pity her deeply.

 

But by this logic, we couldn't hold any fictional character accountable for any of their actions in their respective universes. It would be like saying, "Tony Soprano was a lying, adulterous, hypocritical, murderous Freudian nightmare, but you can't hold that against him, that's how he was written!"

 

While there was a blatant Mary/Edith clash this episode, I don't think all of their shortcomings necessarily have to do with each other. Just because one might be a bad mother doesn't mean the other is a good one. Just because one is selfish doesn't mean the other isn't. They're both terrible on their own, the end!

[shipperx]

The real reason Mrs. Drewe hates Edith is because she's caught Edith kissing Mr. Drew a few years back (season 2, when Edith was driving tractors during the war).

Neither Mrs nor Mr Drewe were involved in that nor were they living at Downton at that time. The backstory for the Drewes began last season. Mr. Drewe's father died unable to pay the rent on the farm and Drewe's mother was being turned out. Mr. Drewe came home from wherever he'd been living that wasn't Downtown and begged the Crawleys for the chance to take over his father's farm and Robert gave Mr. Drewe the chance to take it over as a lesson to Mary and Tom about noblesse oblige. Part of the reason Mr. Drewe agreed to Edith's request was that he felt that he owed the Crawleys for giving him and his wife a chance to take over his dad's farm when his father had died behind in the rent and on the verge of being evicted.

I'm still questioning if there was a Mrs. Gregson (is that the name) or if she existed, was actually insane.

While I agree it's a lame ass Jane Eyre backstory that causes an audience to wait for another shoe to drop, it's long, long passed time for any shoe to have dropped. At this point, Occam's Razor applies (among competing hypotheses the one with the fewest assumptions applies). If Gregson had been lying then a even a quasi-competent not entirely crazy wife would have lodged some sort stink at being labled crazy, her husband moving to Germany to seek a divorce claiming her mental incomptence (because no fault divorces did not exist then. It would have required afadavits concerning her compromised state), his leaving another woman his power of attorney while he was gone (for about two years so far. A wife could have protested that, especially after he disappeared), her husband being missing for two years, and his leaving another woman his newspaper when he died. As TV viewers it makes sense why we would be suspicious, but the utter lack of any opposing evidence or total lack of any fallout or spousal backlash indicating that he was lying or even exaggerating means thst we pretty much have to accept it really was exactly as he stated. We have nothing in story contesting anything he said and no reason for the show to suddenly manufacture anything at this late date with Gregson dead. Edited February 14, 2015 by shipperx

[RedHawk]

But by this logic, we couldn't hold any fictional character accountable for any of their actions in their respective universes.

 

 

I wasn't being serious, just trying to lighten the mood and bring back a little sarcasm and snark.

Edited February 14, 2015 by RedHawk

[SilverShadow]

In today's world Edith could have as many children as she wanted with no public censure at all.... But adultery would still mean that crazy Mrs. Gregson would win the divorce even now. I'm probably harder on Gregson, truth be told, because he's the one who took the vow but Edith isn't really that innocent. I mean, she really had no problem shaming Mary over premarital sex when she had the chance, so she clearly knew that it was wrong. She's not so sheltered that its beyond her experience. I totally get that she probably didn't expect to get pregnant or that Gregson would disappear (to give him credit, he did seem to care about her) and I can feel bad for her in that respect but she's often very self focused.

 

I felt this was getting beyond the scope of a single episode so I created a Morality in Downton thread.

[tapplum]

It’s hardly a secret that I’m no fan of Edith’s, and surely it’s obvious to everyone that she didn’t handle the situation as well as she could have. But seriously she did nothing wrong with Gregson.

 

Was she smart about it? No, but I don’t think she was all that dumb about it either. Edith is a completely inexperienced virgin who’s truly in love for the first time; Gregson is a married (ie more experienced) man who loves her. I maintain that it’s highly reasonable for her to expect him to be responsible, to ensure there wouldn’t be a pregnancy (it’s unclear if she’d even know how to). By sleeping with him, and particularly without protection, she’s trusting him with her future. Is it the smartest thing she’s ever done? No, definitely not, but hardly an unreasonable action for someone in a mutually loving relationship, and hardly all that different from the sexual/romantic risks taken by other characters (Mary, Rose and Violet spring to mind).

 

And yes, he was married. HE was married. Edith was not. Edith did not cheat on anyone. Generally, it’s not super sympathetic to “help” someone cheat on their wife, but it’s still the cheating husband who’s breaking his vow and is the arsehole, not the mistress.

 

And really I don’t think Gregson even was an arsehole here. I’m taking the situation at face value here and not questioning his story, since nothing has indicated it wasn’t true, but it’s not a case of a man who wanted to go behind his wife’s back. It’s a case of a man whose marriage had effectively been over for years and who wanted a divorce, but was legally unable to get one. In that situation, I don’t fault him for pursuing other relationships, and I certainly don’t fault Edith.

Now, how she handled the aftermath of the whole thing is a completely different story…

[Avaleigh]

But seriously she did nothing wrong with Gregson.

I agree that there isn't any reason to slut shame Edith. My problem with Edith is that her choice to have sex with Gregson goes back to what I was saying about Edith being the author of her own problems. She knew Gregson was married and she knows that she's traditional in the sense that she wants a marriage and children. With that in mind, for her own benefit I just don't understand why she pursued Gregson instead of exploring other options. Edith had all of that time in London where she could have been meeting people including eligible men. Instead Edith spent all of her time wrapped up in Gregson and part of it was due to the conversation she had with Matthew where she was disappointed that he didn't approve of the relationship. If nothing else I feel like Gregson should have been able to understand Edith doing her own thing until he'd made progress on getting the divorce. For me this isn't about the morality of Edith having an affair with a married man so much as a common sense thing where I feel like Edith wasn't necessarily making the best choices.

[shipperx]

Edith has made stupid mistakes. All characters do, but is it really impossible to understand why she gravitated to Gregson?

The show started with her mother and father saying she had shone far less than either of her sisters during their coming out Seasons. She had a crush on the man who everyone agreed was destined to marry Mary even though it was clear when he drowned on the Titanic that Mary couldn't have given less of a shit about him. But that was the way of Edwardian society. Mary is the eldest, she marrys first and it would be preferable that she marry Downton's heir so everything would be neat and tidy. It was unremarkable, but there you go. It was the way the world worked. Suck it up and accept the dictates of society.

We also have her parents having the actually vocalized attitude that then 19 (20 at most) year old Edith is destined to still be living with them in their old age (i.e. 'who would want her/ destined to be a spinster') Her only suitor, who her parents initially chat up as a prospect for Mary, dumps her before the war, returns wounded from the war, and publicly dumps her at the altar, partly because of reasons that dont make all that much sense and are not entirely clear to her way of thinking, the same man her parents chatted up for Mary but who i now 'not a good marriage prospect for Edith.'

So Edith gets the public humiliation of being dumped in the church on her wedding day. She writes a letter to the editor about women's right to vote and actually receives a reply from the editor. In contrast to her father saying to a room full of people that no one could truly be interested in her opinions, this guy encourages her to write, says she good at it, he thinks she has thoughts worth putting down, and he appears to like her. Hell, he appears to like to talk to her, and who else ever says that? He takes her out to nice restaurants and pays attention to her. He tells her she is sweet and lovely. He follows her to Scotland and tries to meet her family, withstanding her father's somewhat rude behavior. And despite said rude behavior, he rescues her father's pride.

Then, when she sends him away because it would be 'wrong' to be with him even though his wife is institutionalized and has been for years, in contrast to the guy who dumped her at the altar for nebulous reasons, this guy continues to want her through resistance and adversity. He's even willing to go so far as to brave scandal and to go to another country to get a divorce to be with her, the universally acknowledged 'least attractive' 'least appealing' 'dreary' Crawley sister, the one her parents think destined to be a spinster, the one dumped at the altar so that the world knows 'he doesn't want her' (whatever the objective facts about it, that's what it had to feel like to her). And here is this guy looking at the 'plain' sister saying he loves her, that she's lovely, that she has opinions worth being listened to, that he desires her and wants to marry her and is willing to go through adversity to do so.... nope, nothing seductive or appealing about that. Nothing that might make a woman forget society and her scruples one evening by a fireside.

Look, I'm not painting Gregson as a romance novel hero. He was dull and not superattractive. AHe was in a thorny situation with his marriage and at the very least should have used a damned French letter or newfangled rubberized condom! But I can see why he'd look great to Edith.

We don't have to think she was smart or wise... or justified... or right to think that the loss of her virginity and her pregnancy fell firmly in the range of ordinary human folly.

Edited February 14, 2015 by photo fox

[Clanstarling]

My own personal belief system doesn't generally absolve the unmarried person in an adulterous relationship. Whether or not you're the one who took the vow, you're still deliberately inflicting pain on another human being.

 

That being said, I can't blame Edith too much for her relationship with Gregson. Seems to me Edith fell in love with the first man who showed some appreciation of her - her intellect, her looks, her personality. It is hard for me scorn her for not thinking objectively when, for the first time in her life, someone gave her that kind of attention. The same was true, on a lesser level, with the farmer. She's starved for love, and has been from the start. I miss that Edith. She was a pleasure to watch.

 

Though her act of revenge with Mary was vile - it was a response to Mary's own vile acts, and though Mary didn't deserve retribution on that scale, she certainly deserved payback of some kind.

 

Someone above mentioned post-partum depression - which I think is an interesting take on Edith's actions. If that's what they were trying to portray, they didn't do a particularly good job of it. If they'd written to clarify that, it would have made her actions (and constant gloom) less objectionable.

Shipperx - you beat me to it, and said it far more eloquently.

[SoSueMe]

So there she is pregnant, with no idea what to do, and the two women she probably trusts most in the world, her wise grandmother and her revered, sophisticated aunt are united in telling her that the only possible thing to consider (after she refused abortion) was to go away, have the baby, and give the child into foster care.   They probably presented the Schroeder family to her as a fate accompli while Edith was still flat on her back in the "nursing" home. What mental or practical resources did she have to fight against them?  Could she go online and research other possibilities?  Did she know any women of her class who had kept their illegitimate children with them? Did she even have a friend her age to discuss this with?  Did she have any reason to believe that if she told her parents they would say anything different than her grandmother did?  It would have just been two more people who knew about her disgrace and she may have had reason to believe that her father would kick her out.  That was still a very common reaction.

 

 

Maybe someone can refresh me on how Edith was able to research a willing doctor, did she ask around? I must have missed that part. Was abortion legal then in England? Anyway, it makes me wonder who else might have known her situation if she was inquiring when she learned she was pregnant. Thanks for any replies.

[ZoloftBlob]

Maybe someone can refresh me on how Edith was able to research a willing doctor, did she ask around? I must have missed that part. Was abortion legal then in England?

 

It wasn't legal at the time, and it was not explained how either Edith or Rosalind knew where to find the abortionist. They would have likely used false names - even Mary, when having her "infertility operation" used a false name so apparently doctors didn't check id at the time.

[tapplum]

 For me this isn't about the morality of Edith having an affair with a married man so much as a common sense thing where I feel like Edith wasn't necessarily making the best choices.

 

Lol to be perfectly frank 'not making the best choices' is pretty much Edith's thing. She's made a lot of bad choices and, worse, she keeps not owning them, keeps making things worse by not stepping up and taking responsibility.

 

Still, and I can't believe I'm about to defend Edith, the Gregson Affair is one of the extremely few times when I'm actually completely sympathetic. Thinking about relationships as investments/careers is the sensible thing to do for a lady of Edith's position, and both because of that and in order to avoid heartbreak, the smart thing for her to do would probably have been to branch out from Gregson. On the other hand, her entire life has pretty much been one long list of evidence that nobody wants her. She's the impopular sister, both at home and in society. There are no suitors. She worked and worked for a relationship that ended with her dumped at the altar by, basically, her father's sad and boring old friend. Now maybe it would be different in the London literary/artsy circles, but really at this point it would be amazing if she had any confidence at all in her ability to attract eligible men.

 

And then suddenly there is Gregson: someone who pays attention to her, who's interested in her, who likes her and actively wants to spend time with her. I don't know that Edith's ever had had that before, and I understand that that would be almost impossible for her to give up, especially when the chance that she could find it with someone else (who wasn't married and hopefully had a better social standing) must have seemed almost non-existent.

[helenamonster]

I wasn't being serious, just trying to lighten the mood and bring back a little sarcasm and snark.

 

Whoops, my bad. But honestly, you'd be surprised how many times I've seen someone use the "they're only doing that because that's the way it's written!" argument, as if they have absolutely no idea how fiction works.

[AZChristian]

I seem to remember Edith saying she found the abortionist through an advertisement in a seedy magazine.  I could be wrong.  I sometimes am.  But that's what I think I heard her say.

 

I also find it odd that Mary used a false name to have a legitimate medical procedure done, but used her real name when checking into a hotel so she could dally with Tony for the better part of a week.  I still think that's going to come back to haunt her.  Tony is someone I don't trust.

[Andorra]

It was said that Edith found the abortionist through a magazine.

 

About Edith trying to find other and unmarried men: There were not many in her age group. They were all dead! And those who weren't were all running after her sister!

[LeGrandElephant]

What infertility procedure did Mary have? I don't remember that.

[ZoloftBlob]

Mary and Matthew didn't catch pregnant immediately. Matthew was worried it was him, and meanwhile Mary was scooting about London hospitals, calling herself "Mrs. Levinson" and *having an operation* to cure her infertility. The nature of the infertility was never explained.

[photo fox]

Okay, I've tried to be gentle and Cora-like, but it's seriously time to move on from this discussion.  As a rule of thumb, state your case - politely - no more than three times and then talk about something else.  At this point, I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's mind about Edith (or Mary).  There are roughly 72 other regular Downton characters, so until the next episode airs, have a conversation about some of them and let the Edith and/or Mary conversation cool down,  I'll be deleting without notice any posts that violate this.

 

Also, I'm going back (once again!) through the past few pages of this thread and deleting/editing posts.

 

Just remember, everyone, we're at a dinner party.  You don't want to be Sarah Bunting, stridently stating your opinions even though you're making other people uncomfortable and your host(ess) angry.  Keep it light.  Snarky, but light.

 

Also, keep it on topic, which is this episode.  If it didn't happen in this episode, it belongs somewhere else.  If there's not already a topic that fits, feel free to create one.

edited to add: I also had to edit a few posts for telling others how/what to post. If you see something you think violates PTV's policies, report it.

Edited February 14, 2015 by photo fox

[DHDancer]

Dear Moderator:  THANK YOU!!!  I admit to being made crazy by the amount of speculation and between-the-lines supposition that's been going on, especially about Edith.  Truly it's just a fictional story consisting of a Fellowes mash up of characters drawn from many sources.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love this show (most of the time) and admit to getting frustrated from time to time by storylines and occasional sloppy writing.  And I truly enjoy the witty observations and snarks in this forum (that's why I come here), but ultimately like the Enterprise holodeck, all the characters pouf into the ether once you turn off the TV.

[TrininisaScorp]

It was nice to see Donk interact with Sybbie.  It was cute. 

 

I find that Rob James-Collier does well when he isn't mustache twirling.  I think it's something about a very pretty man with sad eyes.  I would like him to continue some growth we'd seen in the prior season and be an actual friend to Baxter.  With the Turing story being more front page these days, it is educational, yet sad and infuriating, to see the "cure" that I'm sure was advertised and took in many a desperate young man.  Sigh.  

 

Someone earlier mentioned what a nice smile Brendan Coyle has, and I was stuck by it in this episode.  Oh Anna and Bates, if you have to clarify which murder you are discussing, I feel like y'all need to have more communication in your relationship.  LOL.  

 

I like Atticus and I think Rose is sweet on the lad, but I see the family being Jewish being a problem for "good Anglicans" on Rose's side and  the pending/ongoing/finalized divorce of Shrimpie and Lady Rosesmom being an issue for Atticus' family.  

 

Mary is always self-centered and a bit cold; it's a character trait and usually makes me smh and laugh.  I found some of her comments this episode off-putting and pulled me out of scenes.  I actually didn't think much of the haircut scene, but I don't think she was bring deliberate.

 

Oh, Edith.  I both feel for her and want to slightly shake her.  I hope it all works out for her and little Marigold, but this universe tends to screw Edith as much as possible.  

 

I think much of the family becomes more human to me when they interact with Tom.  A lot of the stuffy formality falls away when he interacts with various Crawleys. 

 

Dang, Violet!  That declaration from the prince was serious.  I would have loved to have a bit more window to the torrid nature of those interactions from years and years prior. 

[Mrsjumbo]

About the Anna/mr Bates scene- 2 things struck me. 1. They never had a resolution about what was found in the button box, as several people mentioned here. 2. If that was my DH, he would be terribly hurt & angry that I suspected him of murder. Mr Bates seemed to blow that off & all was happy & light between the Bateses.

Edith reminds me of my SIL. Full of dramatic outbursts, usually on holidays, for attention. I may have rolled my eyes at such occasions as I noticed Violet did.

[lucindabelle]

Is this the beginning of a redemption arc for Thomas? I for one would enjoy seeing that, just in the interest of something different,

Hughes and Carson are cute,

If Atticus dad really is big in the Jewish community than will it so simple for rose not to convert? Judaism is matrilineal. I have come to really like rose, surprisingly. And I do buy she wouldn't care if her beau is jewish, given her history. And attic us is wealthy.

If Isobel doesn't marry lord Merton I'll be a disappointed kitty.

[Mrsjumbo]

It wasn't about the button box, which was never found. It was about Mary's contraceptive device thatAnna was hiding for her and that Bates thinks she does not want his baby.

That's what I meant. The button box wasn't found, the contraceptive device was, they never resolved it because he was assuming Anna was using it because she thought he was a murderer. She denied it but wouldn't tell him whose it was. And they left it at that.

Was Anna using it? Does she have a problem conceiving?

[Andorra]

Anna was of course not using it! She only kept it for Mary!

 

And they obviously do have a problem conceiving which is probably Mr Bates' fault since he didn't have children with Vera either.

 

And mainly it is of course a problem of JF, because he wants Anna and Bates to stay on the show (Anna would have to stop working if he had a child) and he probably doesn't want yet another child on the set. 3 are more than enough!

 

I'm pretty sure their happy ending will include a Baby Bates when they're riding off in the sunset. Hopefully that will happen sooner than later, because I'm really sick of them!

Edited February 15, 2015 by Andorra