S04.E04: We Were So Close That Nothing Used To Stand Between Us

[purplemonkey]

Ok, NOW John can punch Tank in the face. Did Tank use a condom since Bay obvs wasn't able to insist on condom use? I don't normally watch promos, so I'm glad I happened to see this one. Too lazy to turn off the tv after the show proper ended!

I still can't stop chuckling at the end of every Daphne scene. It's like no middle ground Daphne. Every scene either ends really badly or really well for her. I guess she's just an emotional character. Her pissed of faces crack me up.

I just now realized that Bay taking the fall for Daphne was another sort of a "switch".

[jtn]

I am a professor. If you are over 18, I cannot speak to your parents about your grades. It's a violation of privacy laws. If ANY parent tries to contact me (I've had over 8000 students and only 3 parents), they get directed to dean of students.

I routinely have 200 students in a class, and I would be aware of her grade.... Especially since she was special needs. You would check her to see if she was having translation issues... (Which having a sign language interpreter in class is out of date... I get a special mike with deaf students. I speak into it and they have an off-site live time captioner steam the class as a window on their computer so they can read every thing i say, but also take notes... It is also better for their privacy)

I tell students who score a certain level to drop. No guilt. What I have learned after 10 years is most students score in a range. No matter what, I can't change study habits. Those habits determine grades more than anything else. If you get a 70, 90% of my students could maybe get a 80 with hard work...maybe an 85, but not a 95 except on very rare occasions. It's not me,But how well you take notes, how well you focus, and prepare. If you have to get an A, it's not cruel to tell you to drop...I'm trying to be nice and tell you to try again. In my experience, it won't happen because you can't score that high given the odds.

I also hate extra credit. If you give it, it has to be fair. That is, every single student gets the same opportunity. When you give one student an assignment others don't get, you play favorites and that's not good.

[Scootman]

On a now defunct site, I was fond of saying that Bay was one of the most pooped-on characters currently on TV. But a quick update: She now goes into the pooped-on Hall of Fame.

 

Jesus!! Give the girl a break!

[MissScarlett]

This whole thing is gross.  If the show wanted to do this with Bay, they should not have had all this other shit happen to her.  It IS an important story to tell, but I just am like really?  Why Bay?  Why does she get kicked in the face again?  She's going to feel violated and guilty and potentially lose someone who has been shown to mean the world to her?  Yet, I'm supposed to be glad they're tackling this topic?  No.  Just no.  And watch Daphne gets to play supportive sister.  This will be her redemption and somehow circle back to her like everything else on this show.  Bay will get the lectures and the disapproving looks, but Daphne will once again be the "good sister" and it'll be "Oh Bay . . . " once again.

 

I hate this show right now.

 

I agree.  There are no winners.  

 

I agree!  I feel like this storyline might have been better for Daphne who is actually in college. 

 

Why make Tank the bad guy?  I liked it better when he and Bay were friends.  Knowing how SAB handles these kinds of serious storylines, I am not looking forward to this one.  For Bay's sake.

 

I'm disappointed that the writers are now putting Emmett and Bay on the brink of break-up again.  He is still harboring resentment about Bay's decision to take the fall for Daphne.  Which, is realistic all things considered.  BUT did he have to come back from LA slightly pretentious?  Bay recognized an issue in their relationship and put effort in with the movie theater date and he was all "Meh.  It's better in LA."  He might have flown across the country to see her, but their interaction with one another did not feel like authentic eBay to me.  I can't blame her for hurt feelings.

 

Also, I can't blame Bay's reaction when she found out that Skye kissed Emmett.  Yes, Emmett pushed Skye away -- so technically not his fault.  BUT they have a budding friendship and she is implied in almost every sentence when he talks about LA.  I can totally relate to those feelings.  I'm sure Bay's trust issues are not completely gone (with any guy at this point).  And so of course, given her predicament, she is bound to have some major reservations about this.

 

I hate the way they are writing for Daphne's character.  I couldn't have cared less about the whole "bad grade" situation and tuned most of it out.  I loved it so much more when she was a chef.  You know what might breath life into Daphne's character?  Bringing Wilke back.

[Expat]

Bringing Wilke back.

 

 

Screw Daphne. Wilke needs to come back just because he's awesome! But yeah, Wilke/Daphne was her one palatable relationship.

[Bringonthedrama]

Tank was written as way more into Bay than she was into him, and also being obtuse/delusional about that and how "attractive" he is.  We know he was disappointed, but not angry, when Bay didn't sleep with him while they were dating - but was furious and hurt upon finding out she turned around and had sex with Emmett.  He feels he lost her to Emmett. It's not much of stretch to figure he's still into Bay and subconsciously wanted to get back at Emmett. I figure Bay kissed him while she was drunk and upset about the state of her relationship with Emmett, and Tank's reaction was "Awesome!! She wants me!!" So he raped her because she wasn't screaming at him to stop and he figures it's his ex-gf who 'clearly' is into him after all. A smart man would think, "Does she really want me now - while she's in a relationship - when she turned me down while sober when we were actually a couple?" but I'm assuming we're supposed to understand he did not think, just acted.

[izabella]

if Tank and Bay were both super drunk, I don't know how much thinking either of them were doing.  Is it fair to blame Tank for all of it if he was just as drunk or drunker than Bay?   He wouldn't have been of sound mind and body at that time, either. 

 

That's why this is such a sticky subject, and I have no faith these writers will handle it well because they've handled nothing well in the last season.

[CleoCaesar]

Is it fair to blame Tank for all of it if he was just as drunk or drunker than Bay?   He wouldn't have been of sound mind and body at that time, either.

 

I agree. It's becoming/already is the default to blame the guy in such scenarios, but there is a LOT of gray area. I think a better show could show the complexities of the no-win situation that it is, but I also don't have a lot of confidence in this batch of writers right now. I fear we are in for a clunky PSA about affirmative consent, and it will be a very one-sided look at the controversial new laws surrounding that particular issue.

[KBrownie]

I agree!  I feel like this storyline might have been better for Daphne who is actually in college. 

 

Why make Tank the bad guy?  I liked it better when he and Bay were friends.  Knowing how SAB handles these kinds of serious storylines, I am not looking forward to this one.  For Bay's sake.

 

I'm disappointed that the writers are now putting Emmett and Bay on the brink of break-up again.  He is still harboring resentment about Bay's decision to take the fall for Daphne.  Which, is realistic all things considered.  BUT did he have to come back from LA slightly pretentious?  Bay recognized an issue in their relationship and put effort in with the movie theater date and he was all "Meh.  It's better in LA."  He might have flown across the country to see her, but their interaction with one another did not feel like authentic eBay to me.  I can't blame her for hurt feelings.

 

Also, I can't blame Bay's reaction when she found out that Skye kissed Emmett.  Yes, Emmett pushed Skye away -- so technically not his fault.  BUT they have a budding friendship and she is implied in almost every sentence when he talks about LA.  I can totally relate to those feelings.  I'm sure Bay's trust issues are not completely gone (with any guy at this point).  And so of course, given her predicament, she is bound to have some major reservations about this.

 

I hate the way they are writing for Daphne's character.  I couldn't have cared less about the whole "bad grade" situation and tuned most of it out.  I loved it so much more when she was a chef.  You know what might breath life into Daphne's character?  Bringing Wilke back.

 

Thank you! You want to tell a story about a big issue on college campuses? Fine. Do it with the character who is, you know, actually in college.  Not the one that you've already repeatedly taken everything away from.

 

The only thing that was realistic about Bay and Emmett's interactions was that it would be different after so much time apart and that Emmett would question Bay about coming to LA after she was willing to put that into jeopardy before.  The rest? Not believable at all.  Emmett talks about how he didn't tell her he was having a rough time because he knew she was also having a bad time, but proceeds to keep talking about having fun with a girl who kissed him as if Bay would react well to that given their history.  Dumb.  The whole thing was just a sloppy set of circumstances to set up the big crap with Tank.

 

It's so annoying how Daphne's story of the week gets happily resolved by the end of the episode with a hug and a toothy grin like it's a '50s sitcom.   

[Splash]

I agree. It's becoming/already is the default to blame the guy in such scenarios, but there is a LOT of gray area. I think a better show could show the complexities of the no-win situation that it is, but I also don't have a lot of confidence in this batch of writers right now. I fear we are in for a clunky PSA about affirmative consent, and it will be a very one-sided look at the controversial new laws surrounding that particular issue.

 

You've said what I've been thinking, but couldn't find the words for.  We have no context for any of the snippets in the promo, so all we know for sure at this point is that Bay woke up naked and in bed with Tank.

[MissScarlett]

It's so annoying how Daphne's story of the week gets happily resolved by the end of the episode with a hug and a toothy grin like it's a '50s sitcom.   

 

No kidding! 

Daphne -- gets bad grade on chem exam.  Almost drops class but gets a chance for a makeup assignment from sympathetic professor.  Happy ending.

Bay -- gets in fight with boyfriend.  Goes to college party to cheer herself up.  Gets date raped.

 

I forgot to mention Travis & Marybeth!!  I love Marybeth!  It seemed like her opinion to be on team Melody came from the insecurity that if Travis becomes a baseball player he will automatically be a superficial jerk who will dump her (she didn't say "you will dump me" but you know she was thinking it). 

 

Is there nothing Katherine Kennish cannot do?  First she writes a book, then two books.  Now, she is writing a whole musical.

 

I am totally rooting for Travis.  I hope he makes it!  I love the thought of Travis making it to the big time!

[KBrownie]

No kidding! 

Daphne -- gets bad grade on chem exam.  Almost drops class but gets a chance for a makeup assignment from sympathetic professor.  Happy ending.

Bay -- gets in fight with boyfriend.  Goes to college party to cheer herself up.  Gets date raped.

Yep.

 

And every episode so far since the show has returned has been some version of this.  Daphne has a problem, everyone rallies around her, problem is fixed, and Daphne is happy by the end of episode.  While Bay gets some new issue to deal with piled on top of whatever was wrong before, nothing gets solved, and she never gets to be happy.

 

But I'm expected to buy them as "sisters?"  Um, no.

[AdorkableWitch]

(Which having a sign language interpreter in class is out of date... I get a special mike with deaf students. I speak into it and they have an off-site live time captioner steam the class as a window on their computer so they can read every thing i say, but also take notes... It is also better for their privacy)

 

So, I want to speak to this in particular, because this information is wrong. An ASL interpreter is the gold standard for students who have ASL as their first language, since many of them have a lower level of literacy/reading comprehension in standard English. In general, a live caption situation (called CART) is offered when they can't source enough interpreters or you have a student who is hard of hearing who doesn't have ASL as a first language. (I put myself through college doing this.) 

[Bobcatkitten]

I'm concerned that with a few snippets everyone has decided Tank is a rapist. There is a lot we don't know yet, including his own capacity to understand consent. I look forward to watching the episode.

[Racj82]

Tank, to Bay at party: "Look on the bright side! We're at a party, we're attractive, we're not under house arrest, the night is young, we are young." TANK, YOU ARE NOT ATTRACTIVE. Far, far, far from it.

wow, just wow. I like that tank is not the obvious go to guy for a love interest like the typical young adult series cast. I also like that he isn't walking around with a lack of self confidence in himself. It's refreshing.

[Gardencrown]

So much bad. And the stupid!? It hurts.

 

That's why this is such a sticky subject, and I have no faith these writers will handle it well because they've handled nothing well in the last season.

Word. I know that however these writers handle it, it will be ill conceived and clunky. The issue of consent when both parties are too drunk to even remember the sex is a hugely complicated one. I don't know if that's where the show will go -- it's obviously different if Tank was substantially more sober than Bay...part of me just hopes that he put her to bed and let her sleep off the drunk...but I know, I know, her clothes and underwear are all over the floor, so we know that didn't happen.

 

As for Bay being shat upon -- yeah, fucking ENOUGH. Her parents -- all three of them (hell, Angelo's looking kinda sane to me right now) -- are complete and total tools for letting her take Daphne's fall. And it's bad enough that they allowed it in the first place, but as has been mentioned, they have provided absolutely no follow up or support. Kathryn making that lame looking lunch last week does not remotely count. Meanwhile, Regina is lugging a goddamned microwave up the stairs for St. Daphne, who never thanks her. And John is spending his time with Travis (not necessarily a bad thing, but dude, your daughter has been in a world of hurt) while Kathryn is working to turn her slutty (a term which I apply equally to men and women) asinine, exploitative book into a musical. A MUSICAL, for Christ's sake. Yeah, that's a realistic idea -- you who have never composed a song in your life, have no theatre contacts whatsoever, and no actual story to tell from what I gather. Lots of us face middle life and desire to make changes, but we do things like, I don't know, volunteer at a food pantry or learn how to knit.

 

Meanwhile, Bay sleeps with Emmett at home in her room (because God knows, none of the parents care) and is feeling left-out, lonely, unsupported, and hopeless about her future. So yeah, let's have her get date raped! And let's blame her for ALL of it because she was drunk. And let's have Emmett break up with her because she "cheated." Can we strike her down with polio while we're at it? Ebola?

 

I'm a college professor, and I have one response to Regina: WTF???? FERPA prevents me from saying anything whatsoever about your daughter's grade.

 

Onto Melody. Love MM, but this character is a controlling unpleasant jerk. So she goes to the field, passively-aggressively supports Travis, and proceeds to have a fight with John IN ASL FOR DOG'S SAKE, which Travis can understand because he has not developed sudden blindness (no, they're saving that for Bay). Frankly, it's none of your business, Melody, whether or not Travis plays baseball. And maybe, just maybe he's found something he's great at. Her as any kind of guidance counselor/advisor is a big fat stupid joke.

 

I'll stop now. My blood pressure can't take it. But, man, I loved this show. When it started it had so many interesting things to say about biology vs. nurture, about socioeconomic differences, about the Deaf community...what has it become?

[Expat]

 

Did Tank use a condom since Bay obvs wasn't able to insist on condom use?

I hope so. The last thing Bay needs is to get pregnant (or an STD). I imagine she's on birth control, but contraception isn't 100% effective.

 

I know Bay already had a pregnancy scare with Emmett, but would you really put it past these writers to go there?

[JaggedLilPill]

And let's have Emmett break up with her because she "cheated."

 

 

Yeah, this is kind of what I'm concerned about. As some are wary about labeling Tank a rapist, I'm wary about labeling Bay a cheater now that this would apparently be her second strike. I know Simone claimed to be drunk when she hooked up with Emmett, but IIRC, she didn't have any problems recalling what happened. OTOH, Bay can't remember. To me, that means she was definitely too drunk to consent and therefore, cannot be held accountable for "cheating." 

 

I don't know what the best outcome here is. I guess nothing. Either they come to the conclusion that they were both too drunk to consent or they maintain their separate accounts.

[maraleia]

What's worse about the direction this show is going in especially as it pertains to Bay and Daphne is Lizzy Weiss will no respond to anyone's queries on twitter. I don't even think that reading this forum would change her mind and as Gardencrown said below this show has really gone downhill and I blame Lizzy.

Also, has anyone else noticed that the signing is getting less and less frequent and half-assed of late???

 

So much bad. And the stupid!? It hurts.

Word. I know that however these writers handle it, it will be ill conceived and clunky. The issue of consent when both parties are too drunk to even remember the sex is a hugely complicated one. I don't know if that's where the show will go -- it's obviously different if Tank was substantially more sober than Bay...part of me just hopes that he put her to bed and let her sleep off the drunk...but I know, I know, her clothes and underwear are all over the floor, so we know that didn't happen.

 

As for Bay being shat upon -- yeah, fucking ENOUGH. Her parents -- all three of them (hell, Angelo's looking kinda sane to me right now) -- are complete and total tools for letting her take Daphne's fall. And it's bad enough that they allowed it in the first place, but as has been mentioned, they have provided absolutely no follow up or support. Kathryn making that lame looking lunch last week does not remotely count. Meanwhile, Regina is lugging a goddamned microwave up the stairs for St. Daphne, who never thanks her. And John is spending his time with Travis (not necessarily a bad thing, but dude, your daughter has been in a world of hurt) while Kathryn is working to turn her slutty (a term which I apply equally to men and women) asinine, exploitative book into a musical. A MUSICAL, for Christ's sake. Yeah, that's a realistic idea -- you who have never composed a song in your life, have no theatre contacts whatsoever, and no actual story to tell from what I gather. Lots of us face middle life and desire to make changes, but we do things like, I don't know, volunteer at a food pantry or learn how to knit.

 

Meanwhile, Bay sleeps with Emmett at home in her room (because God knows, none of the parents care) and is feeling left-out, lonely, unsupported, and hopeless about her future. So yeah, let's have her get date raped! And let's blame her for ALL of it because she was drunk. And let's have Emmett break up with her because she "cheated." Can we strike her down with polio while we're at it? Ebola?

 

I'm a college professor, and I have one response to Regina: WTF???? FERPA prevents me from saying anything whatsoever about your daughter's grade.

 

Onto Melody. Love MM, but this character is a controlling unpleasant jerk. So she goes to the field, passively-aggressively supports Travis, and proceeds to have a fight with John IN ASL FOR DOG'S SAKE, which Travis can understand because he has not developed sudden blindness (no, they're saving that for Bay). Frankly, it's none of your business, Melody, whether or not Travis plays baseball. And maybe, just maybe he's found something he's great at. Her as any kind of guidance counselor/advisor is a big fat stupid joke.

 

I'll stop now. My blood pressure can't take it. But, man, I loved this show. When it started it had so many interesting things to say about biology vs. nurture, about socioeconomic differences, about the Deaf community...what has it become?

[RachelKM]

Most people have said what I've been thinking about this episode (i.e. Daphne's sitcom 30 min resolutions; quit screwing with Bay's life, not trusting this show with such a complex issue).  So I just want to add, wasn't Tank the guy who looked out for a drunk Bay at his fraternity party when she got hammered after leaning Ty "cheated" on her?  And didn't he bail on his frat because he didn't agree with their treatment of women?  That's the guy who sleeps with a super drunk Bay? 

Edited January 29, 2015 by RachelKM

[joanne3482]

I'm a college professor, and I have one response to Regina: WTF???? FERPA prevents me from saying anything whatsoever about your daughter's grade.

 

Hell, FERPA doesn't even let you confirm the daughter is in your class. 

 

I'm concerned that with a few snippets everyone has decided Tank is a rapist. There is a lot we don't know yet, including his own capacity to understand consent. I look forward to watching the episode.

 

Based on the few snippets of preview we've seen the show has decided he's a rapist. I'm of the opinion that they both were probably too drunk to really know what happened and I like Tank so I don't want him to be a rapist. There were distinct snippets in the previews that show Bay saying "I said no," and another snippet with Tank looking confused and saying something about how she was all over him. Then there's the snippet with Toby telling Tank that he believes his sister. To me, the snippets add up to probable date rape. And since I've lost all confidence in this show, I feel confident that's the route they are taking and it won't be done well. 

 

Tank, to Bay at party: "Look on the bright side! We're at a party, we're attractive, we're not under house arrest, the night is young, we are young." TANK, YOU ARE NOT ATTRACTIVE. Far, far, far from it.

 

Max Adler is totally my type so I think he's pretty darn attractive. Should he feel badly because he doesn't have a 34 inch waist and 20 inch arms? 

[KaveDweller]

If you have to get an A, it's not cruel to tell you to drop...I'm trying to be nice and tell you to try again. In my experience, it won't happen because you can't score that high given the odds.

 

But if someone did listen and planned to drop the class, would you then criticize them for it?  That's what I thought was weird, her telling people to drop the class and then telling Daphne not to.

[jtn]

So, I want to speak to this in particular, because this information is wrong. An ASL interpreter is the gold standard for students who have ASL as their first language, since many of them have a lower level of literacy/reading comprehension in standard English. In general, a live caption situation (called CART) is offered when they can't source enough interpreters or you have a student who is hard of hearing who doesn't have ASL as a first language. (I put myself through college doing this.)

My school (which is quite large...think in top 10 for size in the country) uses CART almost exclusively now. ASL is problematic for a wide variety of reasons in my experience. I've had interpreters show up, but no student. I've had interpreters not show up. Ive had issues with privacy. Many students don't want to be known as 'that' kid in class. CART makes them anonymous. And honestly, if they can't read English well, they shouldn't be in a university. We demand our foreign students know English and we assign books, papers, and assignments all in English. If they can't keep up with a streaming English feed, then that's a bigger issue. We have a large sign language department and students can take it as a language option, and we are almost completely on CART for deaf students... We probably moved over about 4 years ago and it's worked very well as I've seen it.

[KBrownie]

Most people have said what I've been thinking about this episode (i.e. Daphne's sitcom 30 min resolutions; quit screwing with Bay's life, not trusting this show with such a complex issue).  So I just want to add, wasn't Tank the guy who looked out for a drunk Bay at his fraternity party when she got hammered after leaning Ty "cheated" on her?  And didn't he bail on his frat because he didn't agree with their treatment of women?  That's the guy who sleeps with a super drunk Bay? 

 

Apparently it is.  The fact that he sleeps with her may be the only thing that isn't in question.

 

And didn't he only come to the realization about the fraternity after Bay made it plainly clear she was never going to be okay with it?  I took that more of a gesture to please Bay and stay in her good favor than any personal stance of his own.  Ever since he got over his anger about Bay dumping him for Emmett, he's been shown, in my opinion anyway, to be sort of desperate and pathetic in his attempts to continue to be in her life in some way.  The dinner where he lied about Bay being his girlfriend and offering to go with her to see the doctor about the aneurysm even though it wasn't appropriate are just some examples.  We'll see how it plays out, but I wasn't digging that "I won't tell anyone" line to Bay in the promo.  Yeah, Tank, that's just what Bay needs.  For you to be able to hold a secret over her head.

 

I've never bought the "nice guy" shtick the writers have always tried to sell with Tank.  It's always been too heavy-handed.  Yeah, he's done some nice stuff for her, but he's also had some not so great moments as well.  He's not reacted well in the past to the fact that Bay never wanted to sleep with him and that she was never really into the relationship with him.  To me, he's always come across as desperate and pathetic in his interactions with her, as if he'd never had a relationship not work out or something.  For the record, I'm not excusing Bay being wrong for cheating on Tank.  She was.  But she's not wrong for not wanting to be with him in that way.  That's just how she felt and that's allowed.  She never owed Tank anything in that regard.

 

And I don't think that just because he's done nice things in the past eliminates the possibility that he can ever do something extremely messed up.  I've seen that opinion around and I just can't agree.

 

I don't think there's any way these writers are going to do this story any justice.  It's just going to be a mess and at the end NOTHING will be accomplished other than to shit on Bay some more.  The show will not take a clear position on the issue and will just leave everything up in the air and up to the viewer.  The conversation will be enough to generate some buzz and maybe bump the ratings a bit which is what they really want.

 

At the very least, taking out the alcohol and all the other issues, Tank is going to take advantage of the situation.  The level and intent to which he does will be determined.  Tank sleeps with Bay knowing full well that she's in a relationship with someone else.  Bay said the long distance relationship with Emmett was hard, not that the relationship was done.  He's now no better than anyone else in that regard.  The fact that he's sleeping with Emmett's girlfriend when Emmett slept with his girlfriend first doesn't make him any less wrong.  I also won't be surprised if that comes up in his protestations that he didn't do anything wrong, but we'll see.  I think he's still upset about the whole thing.  He's finally going to get what he's wanted all along.  Too bad it's going to take Bay being out of her mind drunk for it to happen.  Not a good look for him regardless.

 

He also knows she's drunk.  He may be as well, but HIS consent doesn't seem to be in question.  Bay's is.  I'm of the opinion that there's NO way he doesn't know she's affected by the alcohol.  He knows what she's been drinking.  In his mind, with his desperation to have her want him after her rejections in the past, her drunken behavior may translate into that she finally wants him, but if she's so drunk to the point that she can't remember and can't consent, it's rape.  That's the law.  He may not have had any malicious intent, but it is what it is.

 

I don't see a problem with speculating about what may happen based on what took place in this episode.  The promo clearly shows that the events in this  episode are going to carry over into the next.  It's a perfectly acceptable action and everyone does it all the time.  

Edited January 30, 2015 by KBrownie

[POPCProfessor]

I'm wondering if maybe Bay isn't exactly DRUNK so much as some kind of date rape drug gets put in her drink. I can't really see Tank doing that but if she somehow takes a drug that makes her lose control/consciousness/memory, is it possible he might not be so aware that she's unable to consent? Maybe the show is trying to raise awareness of these drugs (riding on the Cosby news wave)? I guess Tank drank the same punch (commenting that it's best not to ask what's in it) so maybe my thought doesn't make sense...

 

On Tank's attractiveness--it's not his body size that's the problem. His face, personality and mannerisms are so ugly and pathetic and yet cocky. He is classic insecure needy type, in my opinion.

[KBrownie]

 

His face, personality and mannerisms are so ugly and pathetic and yet cocky. He is classic insecure needy type, in my opinion.

 

Minus his face, as I do think he's handsome, this is always what has bothered me about the character as well.  

 

He just comes off as so desperate and needy ALL the time.  But he plays it off with the non stop goofiness and joking around. It's tiresome and disingenuous. 

 

The thing with Bay has always come off as desperate to me.  I don't doubt he really liked her, but it's like he's never been able to accept that the relationship wasn't meant to be.  He was always way more interested in her than she was in him.  And would do whatever or say whatever to make her want to be with him or please her.  Even if it was not really what he wanted or if he was hurt.  I'm remembering that big speech he gave her about how he'd be different and better than her other boyfriends and he was willing to do anything for that to be true.  I don't know, or really care, why he's like that, but I've never found it attractive.  And once Bay got over Ty's lie, I don't know what she got out of even being friends with him.  Once she was back together with Emmett, she really had no use for him other than trying to make up for cheating on him.  

 

Even now, Tank only shows up when Emmett's not around or when there's trouble with Emmett.  It's downright weird how Tank only shows up when Emmett is gone.  I don't know if the show knows that Bay wouldn't give Tank the time of day when things are fine with Emmett or if the chemistry between Vanessa Marano and Sean Berdy is noticeably so much better so they ship Emmett off-screen or it's just coincidence, but it's true nevertheless.  Even in the episode when Bay tried to help with Tank's dad, Emmett only made an appearance to argue with Bay about it in one scene and then he was never seen again.  And when Bay and Tank first became a thing in the first part of Season 3 last year, Emmett was not in those two episodes at all.  The two episodes that he's been in so far this season have been when Emmett was away and not able to pick Bay up from community service and of course this past episode when Emmett is once again not around AND after a fight with Bay.

 

But when Tank shows up, they're supposed to be such great friends.  It's not real to me.  He comes off as being glad for any attention Bay gives him.  Which is why I think he will take her behavior while drunk and incapacitated as something more.  He will see what he believes to be his chance finally and take it.  Still doesn't excuse it though.  There's no way he doesn't know that she's drunk.  None.  

Edited January 30, 2015 by KBrownie

[xman4802]

I am a professor. If you are over 18, I cannot speak to your parents about your grades. It's a violation of privacy laws. If ANY parent tries to contact me (I've had over 8000 students and only 3 parents), they get directed to dean of students.

I routinely have 200 students in a class, and I would be aware of her grade.... Especially since she was special needs. You would check her to see if she was having translation issues... (Which having a sign language interpreter in class is out of date... I get a special mike with deaf students. I speak into it and they have an off-site live time captioner steam the class as a window on their computer so they can read every thing i say, but also take notes... It is also better for their privacy)

I tell students who score a certain level to drop. No guilt. What I have learned after 10 years is most students score in a range. No matter what, I can't change study habits. Those habits determine grades more than anything else. If you get a 70, 90% of my students could maybe get a 80 with hard work...maybe an 85, but not a 95 except on very rare occasions. It's not me,But how well you take notes, how well you focus, and prepare. If you have to get an A, it's not cruel to tell you to drop...I'm trying to be nice and tell you to try again. In my experience, it won't happen because you can't score that high given the odds.

I also hate extra credit. If you give it, it has to be fair. That is, every single student gets the same opportunity. When you give one student an assignment others don't get, you play favorites and that's not good.

This.  I am a college professor. No, I cannot discuss a student's grade with a parent.  It is a violation of FERPA and the student's privacy rights.  Also, I cannot offer extra credit to one student and not all of the students.  Students talk and any perception of bias toward a student, particularly something as blatant as offering extra credit to some students and not to others is the kind of thing that seriously can affect teaching evaluations, performance evaluations and tenure.  It is as if the writers for this show have never enrolled in a college class or been on a college campus the scenarios presented vis a vis Daphne's education are so ridiculously unrealistic that I cannot even fan-wank them.  As someone said in another thread if consultants are hired for other aspects of the show, why not hire actual college professors/college students/directors of student disability services to provide just a dose...just a small dose, of realism to these scenes and interactions? That would not impact the possible dramatic effect of the storylines it would just make them less contrived. 

 

As far as the rape and Bay I just can't....let me just say this, this show is literally hanging on a thread for me. I found myself  fast forwarding about half the show for the first time this week.   The writers have written themselves into a corner with this particular situation and given their previous track record, I cannot help but think they are going to seriously botch this storyline.  Between Bay, Emmett, Tank, Toby, Daphne  and the parents there is just too much that can go wrong.  I am going to hold out hope that this storyline is dealt with sensitively but firmly...but I have serious doubts.  Next week may sadly be the last time I watch this show that I started out loving so much.  

[Bellalisa]

I am a professor. If you are over 18, I cannot speak to your parents about your grades. It's a violation of privacy laws. If ANY parent tries to contact me (I've had over 8000 students and only 3 parents), they get directed to dean of students.

I routinely have 200 students in a class, and I would be aware of her grade.... Especially since she was special needs. You would check her to see if she was having translation issues... (Which having a sign language interpreter in class is out of date... I get a special mike with deaf students. I speak into it and they have an off-site live time captioner steam the class as a window on their computer so they can read every thing i say, but also take notes... It is also better for their privacy)

I tell students who score a certain level to drop. No guilt. What I have learned after 10 years is most students score in a range. No matter what, I can't change study habits. Those habits determine grades more than anything else. If you get a 70, 90% of my students could maybe get a 80 with hard work...maybe an 85, but not a 95 except on very rare occasions. It's not me,But how well you take notes, how well you focus, and prepare. If you have to get an A, it's not cruel to tell you to drop...I'm trying to be nice and tell you to try again. In my experience, it won't happen because you can't score that high given the odds.

I also hate extra credit. If you give it, it has to be fair. That is, every single student gets the same opportunity. When you give one student an assignment others don't get, you play favorites and that's not good.

Great to hear from an actual college professor! So interesting about how the deaf students actually take courses with this technology. I guess we have to suspend disbelief a lot on this show!  My son is at Georgia Tech and he had a really hard teacher. One test he thought he aced he got a D, just like Deafne! Did I go see his professor like Regina? NO! My son was upset and he said "if the purpose of the test is to see if I understood the material, it was obvious I understood the material" what happened is he showed all the steps in his work for the problem but his final answer he switched 2 numbers, instead of 12465 he has 12456- the teacher took off 35 points for that mistake giving him a D when it was obvious he understood the material! The course was streamed online so he found the exact spot where the professor said something -which he also marked wrong- he could prove that the professor said this since it was on tape.  My son is so shy but he went to see the professor so see if he could give him more points for the test. The professor told him to go to hell he was not changing his grade. I NEVER in a million years would have pulled a Regina and gone to see his professor! Never even crossed my mind. Jeez. I could have pulled the "his dad just had a bone marrow transplant card and my son had to take care of him" myself. My son thought he may get a C or a D for the course. Lo and behold he gets an A because of this HUGE curve. ha ha ha he was shocked. No wonder the teacher was such a hardass, he has this big curve! Now he has the same teacher and you can bet he is carefully rechecking his calculations and knows the guy is a hardass grader. I mean that is college- you learn from your mistakes! I think he even asked about extra credit and the teacher said Go to hell! So not fair that they played the Deaf card.

You know that Bay was going to find out about the kiss!

Edited January 30, 2015 by Bellalisa

[CleoCaesar]

As someone said in another thread if consultants are hired for other aspects of the show, why not hire actual college professors/college students/directors of student disability services to provide just a dose...just a small dose, of realism to these scenes and interactions? That would not impact the possible dramatic effect of the storylines it would just make them less contrived.

 

Ah but then we wouldn't have gems like a college professor of an intro-level course telling a student in a completely serious and grim tone, "This is your first semester. Dropping a class is a big deal."

 

Deafne

 

HA. I'm stealing that.

[millerlite]

So ...

 

Three years later, and the only one who seems to have really benefited from the reveal of the switch, and the blending of the families, seems to have been Daphne.

 

Neither Kennish kid is in college;
both seem to be on a path of aimlessnes;
one of them has sacrificed her own future;
and all any of the parents really seem to care about the most is their precious -- Daphne.

 

The only person who seems to have really benefited from the whole revealing of the switch has been Daphne. I think the writers are over compensating in their desire to present Daphne as the girl who lives her life to the fullest, and manages to overcome -- Every. Single. Obstacale. -- All --  despite the fact that she's deaf.

 

And it has ruined her as a character. I can't stand Daphne anymore.

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

As far as what's coming next week : This is a foul thing to do to the character of Tank. Just ... wow. Nobody can win in this situation.

[FormerMod-a1]

Without the switch, Katherine wouldn't have written her book, leading to more recognition, leading to John's short-lived political career.  Bay would not have met Emmett, Mary Beth and Travis would not have met.  Bay would still feel like an outsider.  Angelo probably wouldn't have come back into Regina and Daphne's lives.   I don't know about Toby.

[CleoCaesar]

He wouldn't be emo Tobias. That's plenty of a win right there.

[shmeep]

While CART technology is amazing, interpreters are far from obsolete. With CART, how does te Deaf student participate? An interpreter allows the student to ask questions and to interact naturally in group work. Also, an interpreter can catch nuances that are missing in the written word and can make the classroom experience a lot easier for a Deaf student. Eyes get tired quickly and having to read every word and take notes and see what's going on on the board and watch the professor can be pretty daunting, even for students with very good English comprehension. I know it can be very helpful for some students, but they should always be given the option to have an interpreter if that's what they want.

I've interpreted in classrooms with students who were using CART and those students, even the ones who didn't sign very well, usually found following the class easier by watching me and only glancing at the streaming words upon occasion. One of them told me that he was given everything that was said during all his classes every day and it was helpful, but that there was an incredible amount to sift through and it was hard to figure out which parts were relevant.

If CART is set up remotely, there are likely more errors than there would be with an interpreter. Not having context or being able to see what's happening in the room makes it hard to understand. I've interpreted government meetings where CART was being used remotely and where I knew the specialized vocabulary and worked hard to make sure I understood what everyone was saying so I could interpret clearly, regardless of accents and complexity of subject matter. The captionist would frequently just type "unintelligible " whenever things were hard to follow. Not very helpful.

I recently watched a play with a Deaf friend. There were interpreters and captions. It is nice to have both so the exact wording can be seen, but my friend, who has great English and speaks clearly, preferred to watch the interpreter because she could see the spirit of what was going on in a way captions could never capture. She's not even a native signer.

So Daphne having an interpreter in class makes perfect sense, although someone with her magical lip reading abilities and near perfect speech could probably thrive with captions, even if that wouldn't help her in the study group. Her interpreter would not be an untrained CODA sitting off to the side so Daphne can't watch the teacher or the board. She would have two qualified interpreters trading off every twenty minutes and helping each other to make sure they are both getting all the complex vocabulary right.

It's true that students sometimes miss classes when they have interpreters. I'm sure they also miss when they have CART. I don't know how much CART costs these days, but I know they make a lot more per hour than I do.

[morakot]

Here is Bay, genetic child of an alcoholic, who knows that she should not be drinking at all; here is Tank, who has spent enough time with her to know that she doesn't drink though he may not know why; and here is Daphne, who has lived with Regina both drunk and sober and who was right there when Tank invited Bay to go get a drink with him. Where is the sisterly backup when it's needed?

[KBrownie]

Where is the sisterly backup when it's needed?

On this show, the "sister" thing only applies when it's Daphne who needs someone to look out for her or throw away their life and future for her.  Not Bay.  Lizzy Weiss after the summer finale went on Twitter and said that Daphne/Bay were like Anna/Elsa from Frozen and I literally guffawed at that bit of nonsense.  Anna/Elsa were in no way the one-sided mess that is Daphne/Bay.  And neither Elsa nor Anna would have just stood by and let the other hurt themselves so they could selfishly get off for their crimes.  Bay is Daphne's sister.  Daphne is not hers.

 

Sisterly backup in this instance would make sense since Daphne's whole supposed reason for not going away to college was to there "for Bay."  But I'm sure it's coming.  When it's too late.  She'll be there to play the supportive "sister" who will get Bay through this and earn her redemption for Bay taking the fall and once again, everything will circle around back to her.  I'm sure they'll thrown in a lecture or two to Bay from Daphne about the dangers of drinking and her experiences with Regina.

 

And how lovely that Emmett was the only one in the family there with Bay celebrating her being off house arrest.  They were practically cheering her on when she took the fall, but nothing when she completes a part of her punishment that they know has been hard on her since they've commented on how much a pain she was during it.  Why no family dinner or family outing to avoid something just like what ends up happening?  More proof that she isn't shit to them.  But, just like Daphne, when it's too late, they'll show up with lots of love and support.  Too bad it takes something bad happening to her for them to care.

 

The entire set-up for this story, Bay and Emmett's out of character fight, Bay attending a party at Daphne's dorm and Daphne almost automatically disappearing, Tank randomly appearing because that's all he does, etc. are all just a sloppy set of circumstances that really don't make sense, but all push the ultimate goal forward which was the big reveal at the end of the episode to set-up their annual BIG EVENT episode for ratings and attention.

 

 Much like Daphne's sudden turn around in regards to Angelo last season which didn't make much sense, which foreshadowed the BIG EVENT episode of his death, which was all done just so they could do that big thing with Daphne spiraling out of control.  Which, in the end, meant absolutely nothing, since Daphne was not held accountable for anything she did.  This whole thing will probably be the same.  Except Bay will actually have to live with the fallout of what happens to her.  No one to come in and save the day for her at the last minute.

 

It's ironic how the parents, John in particular, were ragging on Bay for wanting to go to LA with Emmett, John even calling her a puppy, but look at what her life has turned into since she didn't go.  She's a felon and will be a victim of sexual assault.  I wonder how long they continue to claim that it was worth it because "Daphne gets to be a doctor?"  Will Bay still claim to be willing to do it all over again?

[ChocButterfly]

Ufff, there's so much I want to say and so many great posts here I wanted to quote, but I'll have to summarize it. First this:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. If this show encourages one more college student to ask for extra credit, or one more parent to barge into a professor’s office and lobby for their kid, I will scream. Everything about that was so, so wrong. It's entirely irresponsible for them to imply that college works that way. ARGH. If they're going to show college classes, they need to have an academic consultant, because ARGH. I think this is the angriest I've been at anything on this show.

You said it exactly like I wanted to say it! First with the "NO, NO, NO!!" And then with the "ARGH". For once in her life, Daphne was right about chastising Regina. Maybe she didn't say it the best way, but she was soooooo right! Never in my life did it occurred to my parents to talk to my University teachers, and if they had, I would have been completely angry at them. I don't know what the show's agenda is. Why do they want to make it seem like this was the right thing to do? Not only did the teacher ultimately caved for Daphne, Interpreter Guy actually told Daphne her mom was "cool". And the deaf and difficult childhood card? Please! Daphne has already been accommodated for her deafness, she has an interpreter, she's getting the notes ahead of the class. If she cannot make it with these accommodations, then sorry, this is not for you. Plus, like so many posters have mentioned, a LOT of students have more difficulties than Daphne. Some kids need to work full time, others get sick, others get pregnant, others have horrible homes. All are real excuses, but that doesn't mean they get special treatment. If the Professor was going to offer the extra credit, then she should offer it to ALL of her students.

 

The other stupidity: Katherine cutting Toby. Again, like many said, she was right to cut him off... BUT, you seat the kid and have a talk with him, like normal people would do! This was just mean and petty. And why isn't Toby in college?? So he lost the first year or so cause of the marriage thing, but why doesn't he go now and actually study something that has to do with music and sound engineering while doing his stupid DJ gigs?? Are we supposed to believe the Kenishes won't pay for his college anymore?

 

And Bay.....sighs. Where do I start? First, kudos to the poster who mentioned how NO ONE in her family cared for her last day of house arrest. I don't even care about the fight with Emmet, that was so predictable. But then I saw her, not only drinking, but even at a party where underage drinking was happening! WTF?? You just got that bracelet off your ankle, you already got an extension to your sentence because of the stupid breakfast thing, and now you're risking really GOING TO JAIL the very first night that your house arrest is over???!! WTF is wrong with you?? Maybe you did deserve that bracelet and community service after all! IDIOT.

 

And Daphne sees all this, and DOESN'T lift a finger, doesn't even pretend to care about what's happening to her sister, the one who almost went to jail for her? I'm beginning to think the girl is just a sociopath.

 

About the rape thing.....I really don't know. I may be the only one who thinks like this. Don't get me wrong, sleeping with a drunk girl who is unable to consent IS rape. But why is everyone assuming Tank was sober when he slept with her? If they're both drunk as hell, why is it the guy's responsibility? Tank was also drinking. Granted, he does have more experience with alcohol than Bay, but a lot of people who have a lot of experience with alcohol still get incapacitated when they drink. Maybe knowing Bay and caring for her should have made him think twice about getting drunk and maybe he should've been the grownup one and cut the night short. But he's also an ex frat guy, I don't think he has a lot of sense, frankly the guy is a bit dim. He seemed way too happy to be with Bay again, so he probably drank more than he cared for. Why are we assuming he took advantage of her? She could've have taken advantage of him as well, if he had been drunk as hell and she felt like getting back at Emmet. I don't think that's what happened, either; but I do think they were both drinking like hell. I just don't understand why everyone jumped on the rape thing without considering the other scenario.

[Perfect Xero]

Here is Bay, genetic child of an alcoholic, who knows that she should not be drinking at all; here is Tank, who has spent enough time with her to know that she doesn't drink though he may not know why; and here is Daphne, who has lived with Regina both drunk and sober and who was right there when Tank invited Bay to go get a drink with him. Where is the sisterly backup when it's needed?

 

Bay does drink though. As far as I can recall every time that she's been in a party type situation where other young people were drinking, Bay's been drinking too. It's never really been focused on and she's never really been shown to have a problem controlling it or getting super drunk before.

 

So Tank would have no reason to think that Bay shouldn't drink, she's been shown drinking around him before.

 

It do agree that it seems weird that Daphne wouldn't notice Bay getting stupid drunk, but I assume that Daphne spent the entire night committed some crime or another because she was upset that interpreter guy was on a date.

[ParadoxLost]

The only person who seems to have really benefited from the whole revealing of the switch has been Daphne. I think the writers are over compensating in their desire to present Daphne as the girl who lives her life to the fullest, and manages to overcome -- Every. Single. Obstacale. -- All --  despite the fact that she's deaf.

 

I keep waiting for one of these really terrible things that happen to Bay to turn into an epiphany where the parents realize that they are over-compensating with Daphne because Regina feels responsible for her being deaf and John/Katherine feeling bad that she grew up poor.

[CleoCaesar]

At this point, I am envisioning the series finale: Adored by everyone who's ever met her, Daphne gets a Nobel Prize at age 25 and Bay is a homeless addict with an extensive rap sheet. The final scene will be Daphne getting her Nobel in Stockholm. The instant they place the award in her hands, Bay's aneurysm blows. The end.

[KaveDweller]

But why is everyone assuming Tank was sober when he slept with her? If they're both drunk as hell, why is it the guy's responsibility?

 

I have just been speculating based on the promo which makes it look like Tank was less drunk.  But we really don't know, and won't until the new episode airs.

 

I assume that Daphne spent the entire night committed some crime or another because she was upset that interpreter guy was on a date.

Didn't Daphne leave to go see Regina? After we saw Bay and Tank drinking, we saw Daphne at the house with Regina.  She was still wearing the same clothes as she was at the party so I don't think it was supposed to be the same day.  And I don't think it's that big a deal that she left.  Yes, Bay was her guest, but Bay also knew other people at that party.  Travis was there, so I am guessing Mary Beth was, and Natalie also lives in that dorm.

[Mabinogia]

At this point, I am envisioning the series finale: Adored by everyone who's ever met her, Daphne gets a Nobel Prize at age 25 and Bay is a homeless addict with an extensive rap sheet. The final scene will be Daphne getting her Nobel in Stockholm. The instant they place the award in her hands, Bay's aneurysm blows. The end.

 

 

It's like some twisted version of Dorian Grey. The better Daphne's life gets, the worse Bay's gets.  It's almost like Bay is being punished for getting the better end of the switch, the rich parents, the lack of hearing loss, a father, a brother. Now it's her turn to pay why Daphne gets everything she was born to have. Oye. Dear god I hope that's not what they are going for. But if not, what?

 

I think I'm going to bow out for the whole "rape" storyline. I just don't have faith in the writers of this show, based on their history so far, that they will handle it responsibly.

[CleoCaesar]

It's almost like Bay is being punished for getting the better end of the switch, the rich parents, the lack of hearing loss, a father, a brother.

 

That's the most succinct way I've seen it put. I don't know if he writers were intentionally going for that, but damn if it doesn't look that way.

[timimouse]

I'm not the biggest Tank fan but I try to be fair. However, something he said stood out to me... When he was talking to Bay at the party about Emmett there was a comment along the lines of "I guess you guys were really meant to be" which came off sounding somewhat bitter to me. I don't know if he's as "good" as everyone thinks. Guess we have to wait until tomorrow's episode to see.

[Perfect Xero]

I'm not the biggest Tank fan but I try to be fair. However, something he said stood out to me... When he was talking to Bay at the party about Emmett there was a comment along the lines of "I guess you guys were really meant to be" which came off sounding somewhat bitter to me. I don't know if he's as "good" as everyone thinks. Guess we have to wait until tomorrow's episode to see.

Tank might not be good as he seems, but, on the other hand I think that good people can be bitter about the SO that cheated on them, and even a little satisfied that things aren't working out between them and the person they cheated with without it being a sign that they're not really a good person. You can be a good person without being a perfect person.

 

IMO the biggest "warning sign" with Tank was when Bay showed up at Toby's place and he was all in her face about how he was going to be his roommate (granted, it was weird that Toby even offered in the first place).

[snowblossom2]

Ah but then we wouldn't have gems like a college professor of an intro-level course telling a student in a completely serious and grim tone, "This is your first semester. Dropping a class is a big deal."

 

 

HA. I'm stealing that.

 

I'm a college professor too, and this irritated me the most! It is decidely NOT a big deal, I was ranting at the TV.