S05.E04: Episode Four

[Driad]

 

Hoping that (1) Michael Gregson and the Russian's wife have run away together and are having fascinating spy adventures, and that (2) from now on we can follow them instead of the dreary repetitive doings at Downton.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Robert, stop being a dick to your wife. Cora, recruit Mary openly to your side - 'you get to participate and I want to too!'

 

Very good point.  Wouldn't it be nice if Mary spoke up in that regard (of course she will not).  Because really, it's only because of her mother's (then Lavinia's) money that Mary has anything to have a say in. 

[lucindabelle]

Shut up, Sarah.

And Fellowes? Have you never actually hung out with a rich person? (Ok I know you have). Old money does not embarass guests or storm off from the dinner table. The whole scene was contrived. Mama would be ashamed. Papa would NEVER have done this.

Sarah was worse of course, the smug rubbing it in.

 

And Fellowes? NOBODY IN 1924 thought the rise of fascism in Germany was because "we" were too hard on the Germans. Donk is not only pissy, he's psychic! While building a war memorial to the fallen dead of WWI, you SERIOUSLY think anybody in England felt bad about the morale of the Germans?

 

I get so, so tired of this retrofitting. First he had Mary be all sympathetic to the idea of a mixed race couple "someday." Now we're asked to swallow that Cora's half-Jewish and it never, ever, eveer came up-- I mean all the kids are 1/4 Jewish and it NEVER came up?

 

And NOW! Donk blames the allies for the brown shirts!

 

Not to mention that people of the titled class notoriously felt sympathetic to the fascists. There's just so much evidence for that. Now many of them didn't keep on supporting Mussolini and Hitler once the atrocities started but for pity's sake, Fellowes, in 1924 half the JEWS didn't even know.

 

I do not know how the historians on the show let you get away wiht this crap.

 

As for Edith and the brat: JUST TELL THEM. I mean seriously. There is no young girl still to come out. They are not in a business where they'd lose clients. Tgey have loads of money. So just do it. People would get over it. Make up a story for form's sake and while some poeple might privately question it in public they'd go along.

 

Isobel was astonished by the declaration, not the proposal.

 

Isobel, if you won't take him, I will. Peter Egan's a silver fox.

[Kohola3]

I do not know how the historians on the show let you get away wiht this crap.

 

Because when they showed the historian on one of those specials, he spend the entire hour talking about posture and clothing. I'm not sure "real" history was part of his repertoire.

 

Do you supposed the Camel of Justice might stomp on Susan and put Shrimpy out of his misery?  Or would O'Brien scare it off with her stink eye.

[terrymct]

I hope we're not supposed to think of Tony's scene with Mary as romantic - all I could think was red flags, everywhere, when he refused to accept her breaking it off. Though I guess it could be read as "persistence."

 

I saw red flags, as well, pointing to potential future domination and potential emotional abuse.

[CleoCaesar]

And Fellowes? NOBODY IN 1924 thought the rise of fascism in Germany was because "we" were too hard on the Germans.

 

Thank you! I rolled my eyes so hard when Robert said that. It must be awesome to have perfect historical hindsight, but in the present! Ugh. Such shitty writing.

 

 

Bunting, however, questions whether countries need hereditary aristocracies, so she has the social graces of a freight train.

 

Bunting's assholery isn't because she's questioning whether countries need hereditary aristocracies, it's how she's doing it. You don't talk about how useless aristocrats are when you're talking to those very aristocrats at a dinner you were invited to by them. There's no way for that to be anything less than a total bitch move.

[lucindabelle]

Yeah, Bunting was actively taunting Robert.

That has nothing to do with political views but simple human MANNERS. Of which she has none.

[mbutterfly]

 

I almost stopped watching after the scene with the cop on the street watching Tony's place.  Come on.  And then for the reveal that his place is under constant surveillance.  So unbelievable.

 

I somehow am not figuring out why there is constant police surveillance of Tony's place. Can someone please tell me? TIA

[Runningwild]

I just love watching Isis follow Robert around.

[moonb]

And Fellowes? NOBODY IN 1924 thought the rise of fascism in Germany was because "we" were too hard on the Germans. Donk is not only pissy, he's psychic! While building a war memorial to the fallen dead of WWI, you SERIOUSLY think anybody in England felt bad about the morale of the Germans?

 

That was as cringeworthy as Mary's line about the Prince of Wales (later Edward VIII) causing some sort of future crisis in the season 4 finale. Oh yes, I'm so sure the Crawleys have the ability to foresee major 1930s political events! I mean, I appreciate the historical context woven into the show when it's really done well and more subtly, like the Egyptian-inspired clothing in the fashion show. But Downton needs to keep away from politics because it results in these clunkers.

 

On another note, Mary was styled to look amazingly like Cora at the fashion show. Which usually isn't something that strikes me at all. I wonder if that was to show some sort of parallel in their respective "love triangle" situations. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by moonb

[alias1]

I don't get the interest in a valet's death (more than a year after it happened).  None of what they are portraying seems remotely realistic.  So Anna walks past the place where he fell to his death and it must mean she has returned to the scene of the crime.  Such balderdash.

 

If Isobel didn't accept Lord Merton's proposal right away, I don't think she's going to.  Yes, he's handsome and quite a catch but I believe her heart is with Dr Clarkson.

 

Tony's reaction to Mary was very revealing on what he's really like.  I've never been a fan of Tony (I'm a Blake girl) but she'd be crazy to even consider him after that.  

 

After several embarrassing dinner scenes, I don't understand why they keep inviting that Bunting creature.  It's never Tom who suggests it.  Cora apparently really is that dumb.  Or was she trying to get back at Robert?

 

Carson used to be one of my favorite characters. 

[hendersonrocks]

So help me God and Julian Fellowes, if we don't start making progress on some of these story lines I am going to lose my everloving mind. Mooning over Marigold, WW 1.5 between Donk & Sarah Fucking Bunting with Tom trying to be Switzerland, Murderous Batesy (male or female). Make it stop, please. Make it stop.

 

Lord Merton is adorbs. Has Isobel ever specifically said why she's so set on saying no? And I can't really remember the drama with his sons--can someone refresh my memory on whether they are annoying but tolerable or totally heinous?

 

The bright spots of this one to me were Merton + Isobel sitting in a tree, Rosamund, Charles Blake, fashion, and Gillingham's eeeevil starting to peek through.

[Constantinople]

Bunting's assholery isn't because she's questioning whether countries need hereditary aristocracies, it's how she's doing it. You don't talk about how useless aristocrats are when you're talking to those very aristocrats at a dinner you were invited to by them. There's no way for that to be anything less than a total bitch move.

 

Yeah, Bunting was actively taunting Robert.

That has nothing to do with political views but simple human MANNERS. Of which she has none.

Bunting is an ill mannered asshole because JF has chosen to make her an ill mannered asshole. That's not a coincidence.

Martha Levinson thinks little, at least at this point in her life, about the British aristocracy. She's uncouth, opinionated, obnoxious and American (though, in JF's mind, that last quality is redundant).

Until Matthew came around he was a self-satisfied, middle-class snob.

Now Bunting has the temerity to think that Princes, Dukes and Earls ain't all that and -- surprise, surprise -- she' a complete jackass.

Tom is a polite, courteous person, but Tommy Provo has been so effectively neutered he can't even tell his in-laws not to keep inviting Bunting.

 

I guess I feel like there's at least something of a balance. Gwen was miserable at the idea of spending life in service so the story was written so that we would root for her to make her escape. With Alfred I feel like we're also supposed to be happy that he's moving up and it wasn't an Edna or Ethel situation where the character is penalized for wanting more than to spend his life in service.

Entering a different line of work isn't, in my opinion, challenging the class system or the aristocracy, at least not consciously.

[Ripley68]

hendersonrocks:  Lord Mereton's son was friends with Sybil when they were younger.  There was a dinner after they got married with Lord Mereton's family (Gregson was there too).  The son mickeyed Tom's drink so he would act really drunk and aggressive. Gregson saved the day by calling out jerk son.

 

It was made clear that Blake had moved on, but that he was also still single and would be willing to take up the reins again with Mary.  I think he was trying to hint that Mary could say she chose Blake over Tony to give her a "safe" way out (of course he doesn't know about sex week).

 

My only real problem with the timing on the show is that Edith has been stressing over what happened to Gregson for a year and a half. She got pregnant the night he left, 9 months preggers, 3-4 months nursing, 2-4 months to get baby.  Marigold I think couldn't be more than a year, she should only be 6 months old.

[lottiedottie]

Yeah, Marigold's age is a head scratcher.

 

Is it me or did Blake improve in the looks department since last season? Mary ought to think about getting a piece of that. 

[SusanSunflower]

I poked around the internets and cannot find the name or age of the actress playing Marigold (yes, usually with babies it's more than one), but that child said "bye bye" and has been shown walking or toddling (I'm pretty sure). It's part of what makes Edith seem so psycho -- she treats Marigold as if she's a babe-in-arms baby. How long was she breastfeeding in Switzerland?  How long ago did she leave Switzerland?  Kids grow and change so quickly even when you're with them 24/7, but they do grow and change. (All that holding close may be to keep her features "vague" to make use of different toddlers less noticeable)

Edited January 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Constantinople]

Now we're asked to swallow that Cora's half-Jewish and it never, ever, eveer came up-- I mean all the kids are 1/4 Jewish and it NEVER came up?

It's quite odd, unless the British upper class is to polite to mention it explicitly.

It might also explain the daughter's curious absence of friends and limited marriage prospects.

Mary has had many suitors over the years, but Evelyn Napier is arguably the only one with a pedigree and, so far as we know, money. Otherwise it's been a gay, impoverished duke; a middle-class lawyer; a lower class press magnate, an impoverished viscount and a "left wing" Anglo-Irish baronet-to-be.

Edith suitors have been a middle-aged widower looking for a second wife and a married man of uncertain social origin.

Sybil apparently had no suitors except for the family's Irish Catholic chauffeur.

Not that I think that's what JF is actually trying to suggest. It's just a confluence of lazy writing.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Constantinople

[lucindabelle]

 

Sybil apparently had no suitors except for the family's Irish Catholic chauffeur.

Hah thanks Constantinopel, that made me chuckle.

 

I concede, a line in a future episode revealing, "Oh, people don't want to be our friends or date us because of Cora's blood," would work. But really, it's just lack of imagination I think...

 

There was a line she had about people she danced with before the war. But it was just a line, and she might have been hallucinating, since we never saw any of that.

[SusanSunflower]

Mary, even though she doesn't need to marry, should be concerned about being left on the shelf. I recall my mid-30's realizing that there were very few attractive men I met who were not married who were not recovering from not-too-distant divorces ... Probably worse among the upper classes, always reluctant to divorce when living apart was so well accepted (and cheaper) -- even worse post-war ... and she's so fussy ... only the pretty ones, with money, who will not take me far from Downton, if at all. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Mary has had many suitors over the years, but Evelyn Napier is arguably the only one with a pedigree and, so far as we know, money. Otherwise it's been a gay, impoverished duke; a middle-class lawyer; a lower class press magnate, an impoverished viscount and a "left wing" Anglo-Irish baronet-to-be.

 

I get the point you're making but you're employing a harsh view. The impoverished gay duke would have been a huge thing if it had happened, the middle class lawyer was the heir to a massive estate and title, the impoverished viscount isn't that poor and is a viscount, and the baronet to be is still pretty good.

 

And considering how slim the pickings for men are at this time, that Mary even has a choice in men is kinda ridiculous.

[RedHawk]

Isobel, if you won't take him, I will. Peter Egan's a silver fox.

 

You said it! I totally believed him when he declared his love, and I wanted him to come propose to ME.

 

Richard E. Grant is looking aged but his adoration for and delight in Cora makes him quite attractive as well.

 

It's time for Robert to stop it with the submerged jealous over-reactions and take Cora in his arms, then afterward ask her a few damn questions about her day.

Edited January 26, 2015 by RedHawk

[Tetraneutron]

 

It might also explain the daughter's curious absence of friends and limited marriage prospects.

Mary has had many suitors over the years, but Evelyn Napier is arguably the only one with a pedigree and, so far as we know, money. Otherwise it's been a gay, impoverished duke; a middle-class lawyer; a lower class press magnate, an impoverished viscount and a "left wing" Anglo-Irish baronet-to-be.

Edith suitors have been a middle-aged widower looking for a second wife and a married man of uncertain social origin.

Sybil apparently had no suitors except for the family's Irish Catholic chauffeur.

 

Yeah, but the show's been explicit that Edith's lack of suitors isn't because of her status but because she's a hideous gargoyle with no personality or game. As for Sybil, she had other suitors. The show said her debut was a success, and we learn that Lord Merton's asshole son was courting her but she turned him down. Sybil was a rebel who expressly didn't want to live the aristocratic life, so we wouldn't have seen her suitors.

 

As for Mary, ZoloftBlob is correct. She had a Duke, which is a pretty high-up title. Yes, he was impoverished and using her for her money, but he still thought she'd be a good social match. I mean, the point of marrying a beard is that you trade love for respect in society. And the middle-class solicitor was heir to an Earldom. The press baron was insanely wealthy, and what he thought he was getting out of the deal was status and aristocracy. The whole point of why he wanted Mary as a wife to begin with was her bloodline. And Gillingham had to sell the house on his estate to a girls' school, but he still had the land and the title. That's not bad. Blake is "just" a baronet-to-be, but still, he's a rich member of the aristocracy, and if the government is asking him to study things he's not exactly a social outcast. Plus Napier - that's a lot. Besides, whether we've seen it, the show is pretty clear that Mary can't leave her house without tripping over a dozen eligible bachelors desperate for her hand. Realistic or not, that's what the show is telling us.

[DHDancer]

OK, some corrections:

 

Peter Egan = Shrimpy, not Lord Merton.  Silver fox, absolutely, with or without the beard :)

Douglas Reith = Lord Merton.  Such an endearing man.

 

It was Strallan (not Merton) who called it on Merton's son Larry drugging Tom's drink.

 

Shrimpy's wife is Susan who is Violet's niece (ie the family connection).  I believe Shrimpy is an impoverished Marquis (I got this from the Christmas special in Scotland).  

 

Isobel has already turned down Clarkson (twice I think) so while she might like the man and enjoy their medical conversations, I doubt marriage will ever be on the cards.  I love the idea of her being with Merton, but she just doesn't strike me as needing to marry again.

 

Speculation:  Tony's Mr Hyde is a precursor to us discovering he killed Green because Mary requested the valet's removal for undeclared dastardly deeds. (and as an aside, I couldn't believe that Mary just walked after him meekly in the park!)

Edited January 26, 2015 by DHDancer

[SusanSunflower]

But her rejects are all likely to marry someone else soon enough ... and suitable/eligible men of a certain age are not a renewable resource....  Didn't even Rosamund want a stable partner only to be humiliated ... how did that go? 

[ZoloftBlob]

Isobel has already turned down Clarkson (twice I think) so while she might like the man and enjoy their medical conversations, I doubt marriage will ever be on the cards.

 

Wait... when did Clarkson offer to marry Isobel?

[Constantinople]

Mary has had many suitors over the years, but Evelyn Napier is arguably the only one with a pedigree and, so far as we know, money. Otherwise it's been a gay, impoverished duke; a middle-class lawyer; a lower class press magnate, an impoverished viscount and a "left wing" Anglo-Irish baronet-to-be.

 

 

I get the point you're making but you're employing a harsh view. The impoverished gay duke would have been a huge thing if it had happened, the middle class lawyer was the heir to a massive estate and title, the impoverished viscount isn't that poor and is a viscount, and the baronet to be is still pretty good.

 

And considering how slim the pickings for men are at this time, that Mary even has a choice in men is kinda ridiculous.

Georgina Worsley was the step-niece of an earl's daughter, not an earl's daughter herself, and she married Marquess of Stockbridge, the rich, heterosexual eldest son of the Duke of Buckminster.

But Georgina Worsley had no Jewish or American ancestry.

[DHDancer]

Wait... when did Clarkson offer to marry Isobel?

 

Remember at the Fair (or was it the fete?)  He went to get a drink or two for them and Isobel short circuited him when he came back.  The following day he thanked her for saving him from making a fool of himself...

[SusanSunflower]

... are we forgetting that there were (reportedly) rumors (reported by Rosamund?) of Mary's involvement with Pamuk  resulting from Edith's letter (though there was no investigation of the circumstances of Pamuk's death) resulting in some vague sort of smudging/soiling of her presumed impeccability? Yes, it was a million years ago.. followed by a happy marriage and her husband's tragic blameless death ...but still, Back-on-the-Market Mary's previous vague poorly-remembered, demi-scandal all forgotten or not? 

Edited January 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Ripley68]

Oops, sorry, it was Ediths ex-fiance who outed Mereton's crappy son. Sorry. 

[Stella MD]

So Violet has time and resources to play detective and find the wife of an old lover she hasn't seen in fifty years, but can't be bothered to use these same resources to help her poor granddaughter track down her soulmate who's been missing for years now? You're right, Edith, "Granny" doesn't actually give two hoots about you.

[ZoloftBlob]

Yes, it was a million years ago.. followed by a happy marriage and her husband's tragic blameless death ...but still, Back-on-the-Market Mary's previous vague poorly-remembered, demi-scandal?

 

Are we sure she's so blameless in Matthew's death? I mean, she gets all the money, and he dies soooo convienentely.... DIdn't she tell him to drive home when he could've just phoned everyone? Hmmmm.....

 

More seriously, yes, there is probably the stink of "accused whore" around Mary but you know there's another possibility.... to use the words from a completely different show, maybe she doesn't have friends/suitors because she's not that pretty and she's not that special?

 

Nothing about Mary post-Matthew is particularly kind, noteworthy, or interesting. Yes she's pretty but really, she's also casually cruel and even admits to being cold.

[Tetraneutron]

So Violet has time and resources to play detective and find the wife of an old lover she hasn't seen in fifty years, but can't be bothered to use these same resources to help her poor granddaughter track down her soulmate who's been missing for years now? You're right, Edith, "Granny" doesn't actually give two hoots about you.

 

Yes, but Edith never asked. Just as she never even told anyone but Matthew about Gregson before she got pregnant. Just like Edith never asked her father to try to get Gregson a divorce. She never told her family what was going on or tried to get help for anything. It would be easier to be sympathetic to her if she would fight back sometimes. (Of course when she tries she messes it up, as we're seeing with the Drewe family).

 

[dargosmydaddy]

 

Because she can see that something is wrong, and is a good person and feels sorry for him. She's known him since they were kids. And perhaps she feels that as others have been good to her after her past crimes, she should do the same for Thomas after his past crimes.

I'm sorry, but no. After the way Thomas bullied her, Baxter has no reason to be that nice/ caring to him. Even if she's such an extremely nice person that she does actually care, she should have learned her lesson ten times over about getting too close to him. Poking your nose in Thomas's business never ends well. And I say that as someone who actually enjoys Thomas (when he's not being a villain, which means whenever the storyline requires it).

 

But then, when has characterization on this show ever made sense?

[stopeslite]

 

Generally Carson has become more of a caricature than the full character he used to be. He needs better stuff to do.

 

Definitely. Remember when he and Mary had a special relationship and it was lovely? They never even nod to each other in a scene any more.

 

 

And Fellowes? NOBODY IN 1924 thought the rise of fascism in Germany was because "we" were too hard on the Germans.

YES THANK YOU. I was yelling at my screen at that part. Next I suppose he'll try to get Mr. Bricker to go look at that young German man Adolph's paintings because he needs encouragement to keep him from going off the rails.

[quarks]

I'm usually better at this, but two seasons into this and I'm still having problems telling Mary's suitors apart. For a few moments I thought the guy at the fashion show was the guy she had slept with, but if I have this right, and I probably don't, he's actually the nice guy who is ok with pigs who had dinner with her this episode, and the other guy is all mean because he's not getting laid anymore.  My emotional investment in this, it kills me.

 

I'm fanwanking that Cora and Isabel are inviting Miss Bunting to dinner not to make Tom happy, because it clearly isn't making Tom happy, but to tick Lord Grantham off.  But good grief, both of you, was your battle really worth making Daisy and Mrs. Patmore uncomfortable and terrified? Not to mention the other servants - Carson and Moseley looked appalled, and even Thomas looked uncomfortable.  And Edith was undoubtedly like, and Mrs. Crewe thinks I've been inappropriate....

 

London Police, people go to Piccadilly all the time. This does not count as a suspicious activity unless they are walking around with burning bombs or juggling grenades.  

Edited January 26, 2015 by quarks

[SusanSunflower]

 

I'm sorry, but no. After the way Thomas bullied her, Baxter has no reason to be that nice/ caring to him.

Exactly, even if, as I suspect we will find out, Baxter has known about Thomas' "problem" since he was a wee boy and has grieved over his plight as a gay man and rationalized his horridness to her ... nah, he's a jerk ... I'm sorry. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Andorra]

hendersonrocks:  Lord Mereton's son was friends with Sybil when they were younger.  There was a dinner after they got married with Lord Mereton's family (Gregson was there too).  The son mickeyed Tom's drink so he would act really drunk and aggressive. Gregson saved the day by calling out jerk son.

 

It was made clear that Blake had moved on, but that he was also still single and would be willing to take up the reins again with Mary.  I think he was trying to hint that Mary could say she chose Blake over Tony to give her a "safe" way out (of course he doesn't know about sex week).

 

My only real problem with the timing on the show is that Edith has been stressing over what happened to Gregson for a year and a half. She got pregnant the night he left, 9 months preggers, 3-4 months nursing, 2-4 months to get baby.  Marigold I think couldn't be more than a year, she should only be 6 months old.

 

 

Yeah, Marigold's age is a head scratcher.

 

Is it me or did Blake improve in the looks department since last season? Mary ought to think about getting a piece of that. 

 

 

I poked around the internets and cannot find the name or age of the actress playing Marigold (yes, usually with babies it's more than one), but that child said "bye bye" and has been shown walking or toddling (I'm pretty sure). It's part of what makes Edith seem so psycho -- she treats Marigold as if she's a babe-in-arms baby. How long was she breastfeeding in Switzerland?  How long ago did she leave Switzerland?  Kids grow and change so quickly even when you're with them 24/7, but they do grow and change. (All that holding close may be to keep her features "vague" to make use of different toddlers less noticeable)

 

 

The timeline:

 

Gregson disappeared in March or April 1922. The night before he left Marigold was conceived.

 

Edith left for Switzerland in fall 1922

 

Marigold was born in Decmeber 1922 or January 1923

 

Edith returned to Downton in early summer 1923

 

Rose debut was in summer 1923

 

Season 5 is taking place from spring to summer 1924 (episode 5.1 - 5.8) and fall and winter 1924 (CS or the finale in the US).

 

So Marigold is supposed to be between 15 months to 2 years during the season.

 

She was played by twins who were said to have been 18 months old while they were filming.

[Hanahope]

I get the impression that Isobel doesn't feel the need or desire to marry anyone because she's used to being on her own and possibly doesn't want to be back in the "wife" role, especially one she see's Cora in.  I expect in that time, widows enjoyed having a lot more freedom to do as they wish than wives did, so it could be hard to return to such a state unless one had to due to money, or really desired to for a title (which Isobel certainly does not).  But when Merton mentioned it was really for love and not just for 'appearances' or 'companionship', she's giving it second thoughts. 

 

I think that's also why Mary is being very cautious about remarrying.  She doesn't have to, so if she is, its going to be for love.

 

I'm wondering if the fashion show was a Coco Chanel show?  Wasn't her initial rise right about this time?

[Gentian root]

I somehow am not figuring out why there is constant police surveillance of Tony's place. Can someone please tell me? TIA

Because someone might murder Greene again?

[ShadowFacts]

 

Nothing about Mary post-Matthew is particularly kind, noteworthy, or interesting. Yes she's pretty but really, she's also casually cruel and even admits to being cold.

 

Maybe Tony shouldn't have thrown over Mabel Lane Fox.  She made quite an impression at the fashion show I thought, very pretty and smart. 

[Cranston]

Are we sure Thomas and Baxter aren't related somehow?  That would explain her kindness to him despite whatever it was he did.

[helenamonster]

I'm sorry, but no. After the way Thomas bullied her, Baxter has no reason to be that nice/ caring to him. Even if she's such an extremely nice person that she does actually care, she should have learned her lesson ten times over about getting too close to him. Poking your nose in Thomas's business never ends well. And I say that as someone who actually enjoys Thomas (when he's not being a villain, which means whenever the storyline requires it).

 

But then, when has characterization on this show ever made sense?

 

Idk, I think it's a way to show the difference between Thomas and some of the more morally sound people in the house. It's like Bates helping Thomas keep his job in S3; he had no reason to do so (even Anna was more than happy to see the back of him), but he did anyway. And was Thomas grateful? No, he threw Anna under the bus to Cora as soon as he got the chance (although it's hard to hold that against him when nothing ever came of it). Even this season, Anna trying to be nice to him after Jimmy left...she shouldn't like him, and she doesn't, but she's still willing to be nice to him. And now there's Baxter. She's known him for a long time, and I'm sure he's been a little shit since day one, and even though he blackmailed her she still wants to help him. Thomas would never lift a finger for any of these people no matter what they do for him, and that's the real difference between him and them.

 

That's what I'm fanwanking, anyway.

[Quilt Fairy]

I must be the only one to find most of the 'young thing' dresses on the show to be hideous. They require an absolutely stick thin figure with no breasts and no hips.  Speaking of clothing, I found it hysterical that when Blake asked Mary to dinner, she said 'Nothing too swanky, I haven't got the clothes' and they end up in what I considered a very swanky place, and she was dressed just fine. Not that he would ever take her to a fish and chips shop, but still.

[jschoolgirl]

I must be the only one to find most of the 'young thing' dresses on the show to be hideous. They require an absolutely stick thin figure with no breasts and no hips. Speaking of clothing, I found it hysterical that when Blake asked Mary to dinner, she said 'Nothing too swanky, I haven't got the clothes' and they end up in what I considered a very swanky place, and she was dressed just fine. Not that he would ever take her to a fish and chips shop, but still.

You are not the only one. The one with the necktie effect was especially bad, IMO.

ETA: Why in the world was Blake at a dress show, with Mabel of all people? Yes, for drama, I know, and I know we are to suspend disbelief with soaps. But still.

Edited January 26, 2015 by jschoolgirl

[dargosmydaddy]

 

 

Idk, I think it's a way to show the difference between Thomas and some of the more morally sound people in the house. It's like Bates helping Thomas keep his job in S3; he had no reason to do so (even Anna was more than happy to see the back of him), but he did anyway. And was Thomas grateful? No, he threw Anna under the bus to Cora as soon as he got the chance (although it's hard to hold that against him when nothing ever came of it). Even this season, Anna trying to be nice to him after Jimmy left...she shouldn't like him, and she doesn't, but she's still willing to be nice to him. And now there's Baxter. She's known him for a long time, and I'm sure he's been a little shit since day one, and even though he blackmailed her she still wants to help him. Thomas would never lift a finger for any of these people no matter what they do for him, and that's the real difference between him and them.

That's what I'm fanwanking, anyway.

But it doesn't make them seem nice. It makes them seem mindless and weird. Who continually goes out of their way to be nice to someone who has been downright AWFUL to you on multiple occasions?!? The fact that Baxter and Anna BOTH act this way with Thomas makes it even weirder-- one of them, and it's a weird character trait, but both of them? Just lazy writing that makes absolutely no sense.

[Avaleigh]

Sybil apparently had no suitors except for the family's Irish Catholic chauffeur.

 

 

Not only was there Larry Grey but Sybil is all upset early in season 2 because she just got news that one of her male admirers from her season had just been killed in battle. Her memory is of a guy who made her laugh out loud during some event while some man was making a speech. Sybil then talks about how it seems like all of the men she ever danced with are dead. Sybil definitely had suitors we just didn't get the chance to see them. Season 1 was also the shortest season and this was before they knew what a hit the show would be. In retrospect I think Fellowes would have shown Sybil's season if they'd had the money. I think it's one of the reasons we got Rose's even though she typically would have already been presented by the time we meet her.

 

Gillingham and Blake both have money Blake just has more. Gillingham already has his title while Blake is still in line. As far as the duke, nobody knew that he was gay or that he was impoverished. 

[Tetraneutron]

Yeah, the show's been pretty definitive that the Crawley family in no way suffers socially because the maternal grandfather was Jewish. It might not be realistic, but it's been established no one cares. I mean, if the prejudiced asshole Merton offspring (who were bigoted to Branson) don't care, no one cares. Mary especially has been shown to be a catch not just for her personality but for her position as the eldest daughter of the Earl.

 

As for Thomas and Baxter, my guess is, say it with me people, a writing problem. JF doesn't trust the viewing audience to get the difference between hating Thomas because he's gay and hating Thomas because he's Thomas. So anytime a gay-related plot comes up, the rest of the household is completely supportive. Even though they might hate his guts as soon as that plotline's over.

[Too Late Kev]

Oh Mary, do you really think Tony was just going to be A-okay with you pretty much dumping. Do I think Tony is kinda crazy and overly obsessed with Mary? Yes. Is he incredibly desperate in wanting to believe he and Mary are meant to be? Yes. But was I glad when he had enough of a backbone to call out Mary on her stunt she pulled with him? Yes, yes I was.

 

 

Gillingham showed his true colors. The fact that his first instinct was to say, "I'm shocked that you're such a whore" says a lot about him.  That being said, if you swapped the genders would we be reading the situation the same? Mary basically just sampled the goods, knowing he felt more strongly about her. He made it clear that he wanted to marry her multiple times. She used him for sex.  He does seem to be on a creepy track.  The fuck week seems to have made him feel a certain amount of ownership over Mary.

 

I don't feel like Mary pulled a stunt or used Gillingham for sex. It seemed like he suggested the week away to so they could test out their chemistry -- he offered his "goods" to be sampled. He showed no indication that he was going to think she was a dirty whore if she accepted the offer or if it didn't ultimately end in marriage. Mary trusted Gillingham (her mistake, obviously) and probably figured it was a decent idea, as long as she could do it safely, w/o fear of pregnancy or scandal.

 

Gillingham probably realized she was less into the relationship than he was, and he thought, "My mad bedroom skillz will win her over." They didn't. He should have been prepared for the possibility that their chemistry would fail the test and even one week was more Tony than Mary wanted.

 

He offered, she accepted. It didn't work out, she let him know, and he implied she was whorish and said they'd get through this, basically whether she wanted to or not. If she doesn't go along with it, I'd say the threat was there that he'd ruin her reputation. Whatever reputation remains, of course.

 

By the way, if it was the other way around, I'd feel the same way. The person who says, "Let's have a sex week to test the chemistry!" has to realize they may only get a week of sex to show for it. Be happy you had sex for a week, Tony (or imaginary female making the same offer), and don't you dare insult the other person's virtue for giving you a shot.

 

And, yes, Mary (or the imaginary male) also got a week of sex, which is fun even it's not with your perfect partner, but again Mary trusted Tony and drank the "let's see if this works" Kool-Aid, never thinking Tony would turn on her if she realized it really didn't work.

 

I think Mary should just stay single until she meets someone that she's absolutely crazy about. If her thoughts of someone are that she loves them in her own icy way (or whatever she said that time), don't bother. You're not that into him.

[JudyObscure]

I'm thinking part of the reason for Baxter's kindness to Barrows is that she has been forgiven for her own past and understands that people can change.

 

After all the little mean moments in this episode I was glad to see it.  Even the usually kind Mrs. Hughes was a little bit nasty to Mosely, which made no sense to me, she and Carson are quite proud of their titles of Housekeeper and Butler, I'm sure they wouldn't like to be demoted to Servants of all Work just because the times, they are a changing.  Even Daisy felt free to tell Mosely to get on with his work.

 

  Violet snapped at Edith, "You don't know anything about it!" after Edith's gentle remark hoping Granny would see the prince again.   When Violet was talking about hope, trying to make the prince feel better, Isobel barks out, "You only say that to sound clever!"  The sort of thing a jealous kid might say. 

 

Edith sadly admits she was getting under foot at  the Drewes and Robert just has to rub it in with, "I knew that would happen."  

 

And of course there is Mary, telling Tony it was over.  Where was the gentle way of turning him down that Blake had mentioned?  I don't know how else she could have said it but I don't blame him for his reaction.  If someone had been telling me he wanted to marry me and then, after our first night together, said he had changed his mind, I would be hurt and angry, too.  I might even raise my voice.

 

The Bunting doesn't even understand civil much less kind. 

 

Baxter may be my new favorite.

[lucindabelle]

OK, so, Strallan outed merton jr for spiking Tom's drink, but Merton sr. did stand up and force his son to apologize, didn't he?

 

Sorry for mixing up Shrimpy and Merton! Both are silveer foxes, and would make me feel like a cute young thing, so either are welcome to drag their forlorn herats thisaway anytime.

 

ETA: I hate Thomas.

And no, I don't feel sorry for him because he's trying to not be gay. This is the guy who tripped Bates. Who tried to frame Bates for stealing. Who shot his own hand to get out of the war. Who conspired with O'Brien in Cora's miscarriage. Who was blackmailing Baxter. Who sold black market shoddy goods to the family. Who stole Isis.

 

THOMAS SUCKS. And his being gay and feeling sorry for himself doesn't make him suck less.

 

News flash, Fellowes. You can be part of an oppressed group and STILL be a horrible person.

Edited January 26, 2015 by lucindabelle