S05.E03: Episode Three

[DianeDobbler]

Not to mention, the Abbey has had plenty of houseguests, some of them married, some of them randy. Leave the diaphragm in a guest room and someone left it behind. The end.

Edited October 6, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[CofCinci]

Chekov's diaphram.

[olivia1]

Thanks kpw801.  I guess she is just a snoop. I couldn't remember seeing her overhearing a conversation, seeing the ticket before Mary burned it, or being at the station when Bates left or anything. More important stuff that happens off camera!!!

[ZulaMay]

LOL....there is always Chekhov's something on this show.  

[abbyzenn]

So far I've enjoyed this season although as usual there are many subplots that I'm not interested in.  I generally find Cora a waste of space but liked her story line here - if only to show how terrible Robert has become.  She can't totally fault him for his disdain of her intelligence she's been a willing doormat for the past 10 years that we've seen.

 

At one time I did think Tony has some sinister motivations but now I don't think so.  If he was only interested in money then he would have married Mabel Lane Fox.  He does seem like a dim bulb and I'd be annoyed about him always showing up invited.  I do think Mary realizes they just don't have much in common.

 

Every week my annoyance with Edith grows.  She's too self centered to see or even think about Mrs. Drewe's side of things.  And she's as dim as her mother.  No one will ever guess your secret when you run thru the house in tears after meeting with Mr. Drewe in the servants area.  Of course your family will never know because they don't look at you but the servants (at least Mrs. Hughes, Daisy, Anna) will as will Tom.  After all the servants have had years of noticing things about their employers.

 

Sarah really doesn't have any manners.  Why did she even go upstairs?  Rose actually looked horrified at what Sarah had said.

 

I agree with others that Mary asking Anna to hide her stuff was too stupid for words. Who ever searches her drawers?   I would think that it is to lead to something bad between Bates and Anna but then JF has dropped the ball too many times to be sure of that.

 

Loved Violet recalling her youthful meeting in Petersburg.  And Isobel's response in the car

[DianeDobbler]

I used to roll my eyes at Elizabeth McGovern; there were so many moments in Seasons 1 and 2 where I thought she came off insipid. This season I've learned to appreciate that her line readings, her way with dialogue, is very natural, she doesn't fall into predictable dynamics. For example, her interaction with Baxter came across as extremely genuine, not employer and employee, but this woman - Cora, and the other woman, and everything Cora said to her, even when she was irritated or frustrated, came from sincerity, and being very in the moment. There's no mask. She had a really nice vibe with Richard E. Grant. I believed his enjoyment of her and interest in her. The kind of role Grant played often comes off forced on Downton Abbey, or creepy. Here, he did a great job showing that he just thought Cora was great; I believed what he said about her, and started seeing it myself! Their conversation walking home was charming. I loved her line reading of "and I was pretty, I suppose I can say that now that I'm an old lady." They were very convincing as two people with real warmth between them, having such a nice time, and when she came home, her reaction to seeing Robert should have immediately convinced Robert that everything was on the up and up; she was so open.

 

Also seems to me Robert is being set up for his once a season demonstration that he does have a heart and brains. First time I saw this set up was back when Thomas was being blackmailed for being gay, and Robert talked about if he screamed bloody murder every time somebody tried to kiss him in school, he'd have been hoarse in a month, and in the end, he was instrumental in it all working out, even if a lot of his motive was cricket.. Here, I think he's going to get Mrs. Patmore's nephew his name on the monument. Carson was a drag in this, between his huffing about the monument, his attitude towards Thomas and the telephone, and his implying there's not much point in Daisy's further education.

 

Everybody who mentioned aversion therapy for Thomas seems to have been right. I'm really really looking forward to this storyline. Also took note that Baxter knows Thomas's family and his dad; possibly she'll notice and be supportive of Thomas when it gets "harrowing" for him.

 

I'm not really sure what the police could do about Baxter and the jewels - after all, she did steal them, and although the other guy got away with it, she wasn't punished for his part, she was punished for her part.

 

Loved the twinkle in Tom's eye when he was talking to Mary. I don't remember this closeness between them when their spouses were alive, BUT, Tom and Matthew were very close, Mary approved every time Matthew defended Tom, so it makes sense, given the history. I just want the Bunting stuff over with, although it appears to me they're using Bunting for her purpose while limiting her scenes with Tom, which I appreciate. I just want the "where do I belong" stuff done. He seemed very at ease in his office an episode or so ago, he's good at that job; that part of the story seems more natural than hanging out with Bunting.

 

The Tom and Lorenzo web site said Rose is a much better character than she has any right to be. I agree. She came in as a cliche, and an obvious replacement for Sybil (or at least to fill that color on the canvas) and had to be practically all things to all people - the young, wild, sexually active flapper, the wounded daughter, the big empath and egalitarian with the staff.

 

If there's one thing I wish the show would do more, it's have the main characters interact with each other; their stories connect so they have more scenes. It tends to be Edith off with her story, Mary with hers, Rose not having one (I know she'll get one), Tom in his story. 

 

Re-watching - didn't Anna tell Bates really clearly she was keeping something for Lady Mary and couldn't say what it was? I was hoping really hard this meant he'd remember that when he inevitably comes across the thing int he cottage.

Edited October 7, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[Athena]

I loved the Tom/Mary moment. I don't really ship them, but I love when platonic love is featured. I'm so glad when Tom said, "if you'll love me, you'll support me." Mary was as genuine as she was when she said, "Then of course." She does appreciate him and considers him family. They took make a good work team. They are one of my favourite relationships on this show. It's healthy!

 

Mary's line about ritual is hilarious because of course, she considers herself unconventional. She just had a secret sex week! She sees herself as much more daring and unconventional than she really is. The line did say a lot to me. She finds Tony really boring and tedious. I did like that the storyline has turned her to feeling that she really isn't that into him. It happens more now, but it's better that she found out sooner rather than later.

 

I hate that Mary has made Anna hide her diaphragm. UGH.

 

Edith does nothing except obsess over Marigold. I miss her London storylines. Her wardrobe was fantastic then. The whole Drewe plot is a bit painful to watch.

 

I quite like Cora's storyline too. Her and Robert do love each other, but let's be honest, Cora has no equals or friends at home. She can't confide to Isobel or Violet or her daughters or Rose. Robert shuts her down constantly (see her facial expressions when she asks about the development). It's why she was willfully blind to O'Brien. Yes, partly it that she is dim, but I think Cora - like many people of her situation - are just lonely. Her only "friend" is her lady's maid. It's sad so I'm really glad Grant's character showed interest in her. It's nice to have someone interested and appreciate you at any age. I think she twigged he did like her, but she saw it as innocent and wasn't going to take it beyond anything platonic unlike Robert did that time with the maid.

 

The Bates/Green is the same as his other murder storyline. Bunting can leave.

[Avaleigh]

I disagree about the Russian aristocrats who visited Downton not being deserving of any sympathy. I thought it was sad when the prince was forced to admit that he has no idea what has become of his wife. She's probably dead but he doesn't know for sure and he seems haunted by it. To me it isn't about the loss of wealth and position so much as it's about being displaced and having to cope with sudden losses along the way. It was more than the execution of the Tsar, his wife, and their children. Even people like the Grand Duchess Elizabeth were executed and she'd spent years dedicating herself to the poor and not in the frivolous way that was expected of society women but in the hands on, down and dirty, selling her jewels, not living at court, etc. She was a good person who was helping others who were less fortunate and this still didn't keep her life from being taken by the Bolsheviks, so I can see how violent stuff like that could make them emotional upon seeing reminders of how things used to be. I don't think having had money, power, and position in the past makes it easier to deal with the pain of death and displacement.

 

If there's one thing I wish the show would do more, it's have the main characters interact with each other; their stories connect so they have more scenes.

 

 

Responding to this in the Fixing up the Abbey thread. 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/15297-time-to-fix-up-the-abbey/#entry415006

Edited October 7, 2014 by Avaleigh

[ZulaMay]

I've read a lot about how terrible the situation was for the vast majority of Russians under the Tsar and the old aristocracy.  They were serfs, they had few rights at all, they starved.  I do feel badly for their personal losses and displacement but most of them were not like Grand Duchess Elizabeth.   We don't know the individuals at that tea or their stories, and I certainly agree Sarah should not have mouthed off at that moment.  But a lot of the displaced aristocrats, probably the majority, benefited from and perpetuated a cruel and unjust system.  A backward system.

 

Were the communists any better?  As it turns out, no.  But then I wouldn't feel any sympathy for Stalin if he was exiled and impoverished either.

 

This show always takes a highly sympathetic view of the aristocracy, as when the Irish storyline focused on the burning of an Anglo-Irish estate instead of on what the Irish were experiencing and trying to achieve (independence).  Now they bring in a rude, mouthy woman to insult the Russian guests and make them the object of sympathy.  I am not defending her behavior, but why did they choose to have the non-aristocratic POV stated by a rude and abrasive mouthpiece like Bunting.  It strikes me as a ploy to make her position seem wrong, just because of how she chose to express it.

Edited October 7, 2014 by ZulaMay

[charis]

Not at all surprised to find out that Cora's father was Jewish, with a last name like Levinson.  That said, it makes me sad because I'm convinced that the show either won't do anything with it or will drop the ball if they do.  But then again, it's something I'll admit to bias on.

 

I ended up watching the first three episodes of this season over two evenings, and I'm not sure if it's the rosy-tinted lenses of looking backwards, but I'm kind of disappointed with it so far.  Mary's plot bores me, Sarah Bunting makes me wince left and right and centre with her obliviously abrasive tactlessness, and in general the Upstairs crew seems to have gone downhill.  God bless the eternal snarky byplay between Isobel and Violet, or I'd be bored to tears there.  Downstairs has another round of the Saint Bates and Anna travails, which makes me want to bang my head against the wall, but other than that I'm generally enjoying that crew much more.

 

And all thoughts about the Russian refugees aside, I loved the scene between Violet and Kuragin -- it was just so deftly played on the part of both actors.  (Forget a Robert and Cora courtship prequel, if they could find an actress with the chops for young Violet, I'd love to see that sort of a prequel instead.  The costumes alone would be worth it! *_* And the inevitable snark and scandals ...)

[DianeDobbler]

The Drew plot is static because IMO it's focused on things that aren't that interesting. Will Edith be able to continue to see Marigold? Stay tuned to see what the suspicious Mrs. Drew has to say about it. The only people "we" care about are Edith, and, I guess, by extension, Marigold. Her story is stuck with the Drews. I don't care about the Drews. I have trouble feeling much suspense/tension/compassion, because, while the situation is pretty sticky for 1924, illegitimate children have popped up in aristrocratic families before, even of the young lady of the household, and arrangements of another sort could be made for Edith to raise her own daughter. Out in the country where Downton is seems to be the best solution, but there's also London, or somewhere else abroad. Violet and Rosamund already know the essential story - Edith had a baby. I just don't think Edith is going to be exiled from her own daughter forever, and the Drews are boring. I don't know them.

 

Mary and Tom are, IMO, one of the rare instances of genuine platonic friendship on television. Very often, a couple of characters are cast as age appropriate, available, looking for love, loaded with chemistry, each other's best friend, and then everybody starts complaining "Why can't men and women just be friends?" Generally speaking, I think it's completely possible, but not plausible in cases where people are not only suited in every practical respect, but pretty clearly madly attracted or tons of chemistry, which we see a lot on TV. Here, Tom and Mary have a nice chemistry together, but it doesn't feel romantic or even potentially romantic to me - and I mean the actual vibe between the actors/characters, not just what's on paper (him being not of the blood, the two of them in-laws). Matthew and Mary, as ludicrous as that story could get, had constant romantic chemistry. It's really nice to see so much warmth and mutual understanding, and yet - and it's not just in the writing - it's completely plausible as platonic. No contrivance about it. It's also rare when the two characters are, individually, sympathetic (just work with me when it comes to Mary), popular, charismatic and appealing, and are so together, without prompting tons of shipping. These remarks are coming from someone who has struggled to understand shipping resistance when characters have so clearly been cast FOR romantic potential, even if the story never goes there.

[Avaleigh]

This show always takes a highly sympathetic view of the aristocracy, as when the Irish storyline focused on the burning of an Anglo-Irish estate instead of on what the Irish were experiencing and trying to achieve (independence).  Now they bring in a rude, mouthy woman to insult the Russian guests and make them the object of sympathy.  I am not defending her behavior, but why did they choose to have the non-aristocratic POV stated by a rude and abrasive mouthpiece like Bunting.  It strikes me as a ploy to make her position seem wrong, just because of how she chose to express it.

 

 

To me it makes sense for a show like Downton Abbey to give the POV of the aristocracy since that's a large part of what this show is about. We're seeing the world through the eyes of the people who live at Downton and since the Crawleys are the family of the house, I understand why the show would choose to give us their impressions of world events like this. It also makes sense to me why aristocrats would be inclined to have sympathy for other aristocrats in situations like the ones mentioned. They're imagining how they'd feel if it happened to them and that doesn't come across to me as a manipulative or unnatural writing choice by JF.

 

As far as choosing to have characters like Tom and Sarah as mouthpieces for the other side, I don't think that JF is necessarily trying to make their opinions seem wrong. Tom is a likable character who agreed with Sarah and made his own fair points about the war and the Russian Revolution. Robert was the character who seemed like he was on the wrong side of the argument during that exchange so I disagree with the idea that the show is necessarily presenting Sarah's opinions as being wrong.* I feel like the point has been made that it's her attitude rather than her opinions that most people, even Tom, have a problem dealing with. With the situation in Ireland when Tom and Sybil had to flee, I never got the impression from the show that Tom's position of wanting Ireland to be free was made to be unsympathetic. I think there were certain choices he made that people objected to and that was what caused the majority of the conflict when he showed up there in the middle of the night without pregnant Sybil. I personally never felt like the show was ever saying that his position about wanting independence for Ireland was wrong. 

 

In terms of feeling manipulated by the show's writing at times, a recent example for me was the whole thing with Anna getting the diaphragm for Mary. She doesn't want to do it but Mary does everything but twist her arm in order to make her go. She does Mary the favor and the overall experience is uncomfortable. Fast forward to Anna talking about it with Mary and she's suddenly talking about how she'd like to do it again and again based on principle, thereby letting Mary off of the hook for being insensitive about not seeing that Anna didn't want to do this for her and that she shouldn't have asked. IDK I found that to be annoying and I felt like JF was trying to make it seem like it wasn't wrong for Mary to all but insist that Anna do this for her.

 

ETA: 

*Even at that first dinner party there was that comment Sarah made about the Prime Minister's election where a couple of the toffs present had to reply that they couldn't argue with her logic. 

Edited October 8, 2014 by Avaleigh

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What I liked about Tom and Mary's conversation is that she clearly had reservations about him leaving but when he said, "If you love me, then you will support me," she immediately said, "Then I support you." As much as she would like Tom and Sybbie to stay, when he said that to her, she realized that it would be selfish for her to want them to stay for her when leaving could bring him happiness. That is when you know you really love someone.

[ZulaMay]

Well, we can agree about Anna and Mary with the birth control.  Mary took advantage of her and I thought it was very selfish and callous of her.  But now she has asked Anna to hide the "incriminating" evidence in her own tiny home that she shares with her husband.  Again Anna didn't want to do it, and again Mary ignored her discomfort and kept pushing.  So that little exchange about the judgmental chemist doesn't get Mary off the hook anymore.  I am glad of that because she doesn't deserve to be excused for her behavior.

 

But just as you felt manipulated by that writing (and I understand why....I felt that way too), I felt manipulated by the Ireland story and now by Sarah with the refugees.  Maybe because of my views, but I know when I'm being manipulated.  I think sometimes it just bothers me, and sometimes it doesn't.  It depends on how much a subject matters to you or how you view it.

 

For example, they are making Sarah awful and I know that is manipulative.  But I don't care because I don't want him with her. 

Edited October 8, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Featherhat]

I've read a lot about how terrible the situation was for the vast majority of Russians under the Tsar and the old aristocracy.  They were serfs, they had few rights at all, they starved.  I do feel badly for their personal losses and displacement but most of them were not like Grand Duchess Elizabeth.   We don't know the individuals at that tea or their stories, and I certainly agree Sarah should not have mouthed off at that moment.  But a lot of the displaced aristocrats, probably the majority, benefited from and perpetuated a cruel and unjust system.  A backward system.

 

And like a lot of bloody revolutions before and since the Russian Revolution didn't actually put a system in place that actually helped the people it said it was trying to, it just replaced the types of people that took advantage of them. I think technically Serfdom had been abolished a few decades before, but the vast majority were still at peasant level, and what benefits it actually had "for the serf in the field" are arguable.

 

I seriously don't require a show featuring an aristocratic family from (at this point 90 years ago) to be always showcasing the more moderate or even liberal attitudes of today, nor necessarily that Lord Grantham should be a forward looking type than a stuffed Tory shirt, and he is often presented as "behind the times" or just plain wrong (prostitute Ethel situation etc). The Crawleys generally treat their servants fairly well and they do take advantage of them without always even realising they're going it and the system gradually collapsed as servants left to have better lives. It's definitely not the same but I've had bosses in the past who assumed I was on call for them almost 24/7 (and this wasn't the type of job where I was supposed to be) and could drop everything at short notice and do their bidding on days off. Again I have a million more legal protections in place etc but Violet's quip tonight about realising their staff is human (only on their days off) made me think of this boss and I said "not even then". There are always going to be those in charge who take advantage.

[Andorra]

I don't feel manipulated by JF towards liking the aristocracy, since if he as able to do so, I would be a Tory by now and I'm not :-D.

 

I do think he wants to do a portrait of the time, but of course it is through rose tinted glasses. I don't mind the nostalgia though, it is part of the appeal. I'm not keen on "gritting" shows. I want light entertainment and that is what Downton is offering. Not more but also not less.

 

It is a bit frustrating that Bunting is such an annoying woman though. My guess is that Tom will end up marrying posh again. Why else introducing a woman who would be "perfect on paper" for him in class and education and then make her so irritating and obnoxious that no-one wants him to end up with her?

 

If a well educated middlelcass woman was the one in the books for him, I don't think Julian Fellows would need to give us Miss Bunting first. It would be repetive to bring in yet another political, educated middleclass woman, but make her likeable this time.

 

No, I think Tom will marry up again. After he will finally decide to make a life at Downton and find a woman not only he can love but who can be accpeted by the family and this will probably a posh woman.

[Tetraneutron]

That's it though. What kind of posh woman would move to Downton so her husband can manage his late wife's family's estate? What about their own children?

 

As for the diaphragm thing, I can't believe the show would go to a place where Bates and Anna have some kind of ridiculous misunderstanding that could be solved instantly if they just spent one literal minute talking to each other. It's so sitcommy. Besides, this couple has been defined by their extreme loyalty to each other. It makes no sense in the context of the show AND makes Bates look like the worst person ever if he fights with his wife, his wife who stood by him when he went to jail for murder, and for whom he killed a man (I assume, no spoilers), over birth control. I mean, it looked like the show was setting that up when they showed Bates and Anna having that discussion about loving your theoretical stepchildren but wanting kids of your own, but it would be so, so, stupid, I can't imagine the show going there. 

 

Also, I hope the mysterious Thomas thing isn't he's going to some kind of pray-the-gay-away type place, which I've heard is what they're doing. I don't want the character to become a receptacle for the writers to his us over the head with "homophobia is bad, mmmkay". The character has always been more than just his sexuality, and I think the audience is well aware that gay people were treated horribly at the time. I just don't see the point. Thomas serves an important role in the show - the antagonist. He doesn't cross over into unacceptable levels of evil, like Nanny West and Mr. Green, but he wants for himself and not the Crawleys or the system. I don't want to see him become a sad sack, and on such a flimsy premise. He never loved Jimmy.

 

And I'm glad they've resolved Baxter and her Big Dark Secret. Although they made such a point of mentioning that guy's name I predict he'll show up in about two episodes. Not looking forward to that. 

 

The fundamental problem with this show is they strain for conflict. It's supposed to be a fuzzy, warm, drawing room show that we watch curled up with a cup of tea. This precludes real villainy (for more than one episode), unsympathetic protagonists, real change, or real unhappiness. So everything that's potentially interesting gets quickly resolved. And you can see them visibly strain for plots. 

[Avaleigh]

What kind of posh woman would move to Downton so her husband can manage his late wife's family's estate?

There is a house specifically for the estate manager on the land so I don't know that remarriage for Tom necessarily means that his character will have to leave the show. There isn't yet a need for Tom to move there now since Downton is so big and there are other benefits to living there in general that I think a single parent would be appreciative of like Sybbie having the same nanny, being able to play with her cousin every day, not having to worry about meal preparation, etc. Plus just being close by to immediately be able to talk to Robert or Mary about this or that is probably convenient for now.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Avaleigh

[abbyzenn]

I can't imagine any woman who would want to marry someone and live in the house with her husband's former inlaws.  Have dinner every night with the dead wife's parents?  That's why I think when Tom marries he will leave the show.  OF course I could see it on this show only to then have some conflict between the new wife and Robert/Cora/Mary.  I mean it couldn't be easy on Robert or Cora either to dine everynight with their dead daughter's replacement.

[Andorra]

But think of some posh girl like Madeline Allsop? Who's family has lost all their money? Tom would be able to give her the lifestyle she was brought up in even though he is not from the same origins. She could also be a good role model to Sybbie.

 

"Living with the in-laws" was not as stigmatized back then, than it is today. Women were expected to live in one house with their in-laws anyway and most of the time with all the unmarried sisters, the grandparents etc etc. And this under far more crowded circumstances than they have it at Downton Abbey! A family as we know it today with father, mother and the children only was almost non-existant to that time, especially in the country.

 

Allen Leech has said before the series started:

that "Tom will have to find a woman who not only he loves, but who will also be accepted by the family." He didn't say if he would find her this season, he said "you will have to find out". Which IMO sounds as if at least the seed will be planted for a romantic storyline

Edited October 8, 2014 by Andorra

[shipperx]

Glade, oh God, I know.  The Russian aristocracy does not stir my sympathies one bit.  Peasants were basically serfs there and treated like dirt:  the ruling class got what they deserved when they lost power.  I'm not talking about shooting the Tsar's family, of course.  But loss of wealth and position?  Cry me a river. That one prince got so butthurt when Sarah said something about the Tsar.  Sure, she needs to just shut her mouth sometimes (and that was one of them) but it was like the guy couldn't BEAR to hear anyone question him.  Just like Robert.  A big baby.

A few years ago I watched a very good documentary on the Russian Revolution and while watching it I came to realize how we are almost always presented both the Russian Revolution and the French Revolution (see things like Scarlett Pimpernel) from the aristocracy's point of view. Usually, when you delve into the actual context, the peasants had good cause to revolt (then things devolve out of control because that's generally the way things go in war), but we're usually presented with narratives about the 'poor' suffering displaced aristocrats (I'll also add "Gone With the Wind" to this sort of topsy-turvey narrative. The downcast are dismissed as pointless while the displaced aristocrat is given the sympathetic POV).

That said, given the way that Downton is generally written, I'm not the least bit surprised by Followes take on it all. After all, we're apparently supposed to think the worst thing in the whole wide world is whether Mary's sense of privilege might be undercut, ever.

Wish I could like Bunting. But... sigh. Still want Tom to have a better love interest.

Edited October 8, 2014 by shipperx

[Cherpumple]

What kind of posh woman would move to Downton so her husband can manage his late wife's family's estate?

Considering the shortage of eligible men after the war, Tom would be a pretty good catch for many posh women. Of course, we have to take Edith's word for it that this shortage existed, because you'd never know it by watching the queue of men waiting years and years for Mary's hand (eye roll).

Edited October 8, 2014 by Cherpumple

[ZulaMay]

It would make perfect sense for Tom to marry someone of genteel but not aristocratic background:  someone like Isobel.  They could live in the Agent House and come to dinner often, just as she does.  Problem solved.  It practically writes itself.  And yet when they introduce a middle-class, educated woman she is ill-mannered and abrasive.  Why?

 

I thought it was to give them an excuse to match him with another Posh girl, another cross-class romance with some conflict thrown in for good measure (maybe with her parents, or friends, or even between her and Tom).  But that hasn't happened so far and for the life of me I cannot figure out what the plan is.  It's been four years show time, there are two single women for every single, healthy man, and Tom would definitely not lack for options.

[Featherhat]

It would make perfect sense for Tom to marry someone of genteel but not aristocratic background:  someone like Isobel.  They could live in the Agent House and come to dinner often, just as she does.  Problem solved.  It practically writes itself.  And yet when they introduce a middle-class, educated woman she is ill-mannered and abrasive.  Why?

 

Yes  I was thinking a slightly less holier-than-thou "gentleman's daughter" Isobel, but still concerned about social causes etc or a less aristocratic Rose would be good ideas for him. And there's a lot of layers between the start of the "posh girls" and the Earl of Grantham in English society at this time, who's family would be more than happy to see her living at Downton or in a house on the estate as "Auntie" to the heir to Downton, even if it meant a slightly awkward situation as they all got used to Tom "moving on" but still being a member of the family.

 

He's young, he's healthy with no injuries, good looking and charming, he has a good job and better connections...I can see even girls who would have previosuly expected to marry extremely well being interested in him when many of the other men who *were* left were so much worse off.

 

Bunting might have worked if she wasn't so abrasive and just as reverse snobbish as Lord Grantham is. She might undergo a transformation but I kind of doubt it. I really do think he might be for Rose longterm. He fits in with her erstwhile "rebellion persona" and is still part of the family now so she's not "really" rebelling like Sybil did and I'm really not looking forward to that happening, it seems way too pat.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Featherhat

[ZulaMay]

Well, Rose would be better than Bunting anyway.  And she does take an interest in charitable causes and such, even if she's not as serious-minded and idealistic as Sybil was.  No one will live up to Sybil.  At least Rose is not status-conscious or snobbish.  She seems comfortable with everyone.

 

They said she has a hunky new beau who shows up in 5.05.  We don't know that whole story yet but the show allowed the press to mention him after they pre-screened 5.01 and a few other scenes from 1-5.  So she might be off the table.

[DianeDobbler]

Just my .o2, the show gave the guy who plays Gillingham a lot of press, and not only is he a big zzzzzzz, but it appears they're shifting Mary onto Mr. Cheekbones. I find Charles Blake's hair pretty suspicious and spent a bit of the last show he was on trying to decide if it was a wig, but could reach no conclusions. He's better than Gillingham at this point, I've decided, but I certainly hope it doesn't get Matthew and Mary air time, because I don't think it's got Mathew/Mary level potential, even in its own right.

[Camera One]

I think the actor who plays Gillingham does his best with what he's given.  I don't think the show is "shifting" towards Blake since that has always been the pattern.  Throughout Season 4, it has always been an episode of Gillingham, an episode of Blake, or a scene with Gillingham, a scene with Blake, continued ad nauseum.  But in most of those situations, Mary always started with Gillingham and then ended the night, or ended the episode with Blake.  So this same ol' pattern could stay play out in Season 5.  

 

I find Blake way too cocky and I don't feel any chemistry with Mary.  He can't compare to Matthew either even though it's in the same vein, because Matthew was allowed to be a character in his own right.  He had his own scenes and a supporting character (Isobel).  Blake doesn't.  They will no doubt play up the differences between Gillingham and Blake, since they want to show Mary as intellectual and Blake can give her that (apparently).  

 

I can't believe there has practically been a season and a half of this tiresomeness now.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camera One

[vesperholly]

I feel like Mr Drewe needs to tell Edith that she has to be okay with filling his wife in on the fact that she's Marigold's mother and then they can all figure out what to do from there.

 

No kidding. Mrs Drewe is awfully thick though — mysterious child arrives needing care, and soon after Lady from the Big House (who returns after many months abroad) is extremely interested in child's welfare and emoting all over. Not to mention the child is a ringer for Lady. DUH.

 

All of you here have come up with far better and more interesting explanations of Greene's possible murderer than JF ever will. "Martyred manpain" is the best possible description of him. Bahahaha.

Edited October 9, 2014 by vesperholly

[ZulaMay]

Bates was best described by some reviewer three seasons ago as "A man limping around looking for another sword to fall on.'

[DeepRunner]

Bates was best described by some reviewer three seasons ago as "A man limping around looking for another sword to fall on.'

 

I get it. I really do get it. But the issue should be with Fellowes' dramatic predilections, not the characters, even Mary Queen of Snarks. IIRC, Fellowes originally wrote Bates in large part because of Brendan Coyle's portrayal of Nicholas Higgins in "North and South." But then Fellowes introduced the snuff box caper, followed by the wine thievery, followed by Vera, followed by being forced to leave Anna because of Vera, followed by Vera's death, followed by jail time, followed by...Fellowes has a real jones for writing Bates as retchingly and wretchedly martyr-like.

 

 

Well, Rose would be better than Bunting anyway.  And she does take an interest in charitable causes and such, even if she's not as serious-minded and idealistic as Sybil was.  No one will live up to Sybil.  At least Rose is not status-conscious or snobbish.  She seems comfortable with everyone.

 

They said she has a hunky new beau who shows up in 5.05.  We don't know that whole story yet but the show allowed the press to mention him after they pre-screened 5.01 and a few other scenes from 1-5.  So she might be off the table.

 

Meh. If Rose is being hailed only in comparison to Sarah Bunting, then...meh. 

 

Rose is a polarizing figure, people either like her or they really, really DON'T like her. With 

Lily James reported to be leaving Downton Abbey after S5, Rose will be gone, though not dead, maybe and they will need another young person to round out the cast, assuming Fellowes goes in that direction.

[ZulaMay]

I get it. I really do get it. But the issue should be with Fellowes' dramatic predilections, not the characters, even Mary Queen of Snarks. IIRC, Fellowes originally wrote Bates in large part because of Brendan Coyle's portrayal of Nicholas Higgins in "North and South." But then Fellowes introduced the snuff box caper, followed by the wine thievery, followed by Vera, followed by being forced to leave Anna because of Vera, followed by Vera's death, followed by jail time, followed by...Fellowes has a real jones for writing Bates as retchingly and wretchedly martyr-like.

 

 

 

Meh. If Rose is being hailed only in comparison to Sarah Bunting, then...meh. 

 

Rose is a polarizing figure, people either like her or they really, really DON'T like her. With 

Lily James reported to be leaving Downton Abbey after S5, Rose will be gone, though not dead, maybe and they will need another young person to round out the cast, assuming Fellowes goes in that direction.

Is that so?  I like her but I don't LOVE her.  I thought a lot of people were fairly neutral on her.  I know when the rumor of her leaving the show emerged a few months ago, it barely registered as a tremor.  Sybil and Matthew leaving caused earthquakes.

 

Well, it's true that Bunting is bound to lose to any reasonably likable, tactful and attractive young woman.  That's what weak competition she is.  But maybe that's intentional.  Whoever they have in mind for Tom, she's never going to live up to Sybil.  So they have to bring in Sarah (and before that Edna) to lower the bar a little.  A lot.

 

At any rate Lily James now says that she is not planning to leave the show and hopes to be in S6 (once it is commissioned, which it likely will be). So that information might have been premature. And it never said that she would not return at all, merely that she would be busy with promoting Cinderella for Disney in February/March. They said Rose would still be on the show....just not as much.

Edited October 10, 2014 by ZulaMay

[DeepRunner]

Is that so?  I like her but I don't LOVE her.  I thought a lot of people were fairly neutral on her.  I know when the rumor of her leaving the show emerged a few months ago, it barely registered as a tremor.  Sybil and Matthew leaving caused earthquakes.

 

Well, it's true that Bunting is bound to lose to any reasonably likable, tactful and attractive young woman.  That's what weak competition she is.  But maybe that's intentional.  Whoever they have in mind for Tom, she's never going to live up to Sybil.  So they have to bring in Sarah (and before that Edna) to lower the bar a little.  A lot.

 

At any rate Lily James now says that she is not planning to leave the show and hopes to be in S6 (once it is commissioned, which it likely will be). So that information might have been premature. And it never said that she would not return at all, merely that she would be busy with promoting Cinderella for Disney in February/March. They said Rose would still be on the show....just not as much.

 

Well...other DA boards I have observed, some were OK with Rose, others thought she was a bit of a petulant brat in S4. As far as the 

news about Lily James, I had checked Google about her leaving before writing my post, and had not seen an update, although I didn't go through every last result. (The leaving to promote Cinderella seemed a bit thin, but...) Then after reading your post, I checked Google News and saw a recent update that she hoped to be in S6. Let's see what happens. FTR, I never thought she would be gone for good. I don't think Fellowes will kill off another major character before the end of S6, assuming there is one, with the possible exception of John Bates.

Edited October 10, 2014 by DeepRunner

[darkestboy]

Meh episode.

Edith's storyline is just dragging out now. If she's not going to get Marigold back, can she at least explain to Mrs Drewe the whole situation then?

The Russian plot was only interesting because of Violet.

Robert was a jackass to Cora. I hope she cheats on him.

Still not feeling Mary and Gillingham but now it's starting to look intentional. Liked that she confided in Tom about it.

Thomas might actually get a storyline this series, which is good.

Sometimes I wish Mrs Hughes would slap Carson and I do like the latter.

Can this whole thing with Green's death just get resolved now? 6/10
 

[ZulaMay]

I thought it was quite "meh" and slow too, until the last fifteen-twenty minutes.  But maybe that's because I hate the murder mystery thing (just as I did last time) and find it draggy as Hell.  I'm also tired of Carson's scowly face and rigidity (yes, we know he doesn't like change), find Mary's relationship with Tony about as tedious as she seems to find his company, and as much as I like Edith and Laura's acting the storyline is also draggy, not to mention depressing.

[Primetimer]

Mary deals with the consequences of her sex tourism, Cora appreciates art (and gets appreciated for it), and that boor Sarah Bunting ruins yet another party!

Read the story

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I hate Robert!

That is all.

[heebiejeebie]

So Violet gets the only real plot development since last season.  Odd and amusing.

[lottiedottie]

So, I guess Bates is an accused murderer...again?

 

Mary is like "so glad I sampled that before committing to it!" No way she is going to end up with him, right?

[bmoore4026]

Elizabeth McGovern and Richard E. Grant have such good chemistry together.  Which is why the second season of The Scarlet Pimpernel sucked; the jerks killed off Marguerite!

 

Cora doesn't seem to see Mr. Bricker as anything more than a friend, which is why she was happily surprised to see Robert sitting there.  Robert, of course, remains Lord of the Asses.  He might have good reason to feel threatened, though.

 

Mary and Gillingham - still don't give a shit.  Ditto on the "Bates may have killed someone again" storyline.  Oddly, I still like Anna and Bates.

 

Good O'Brien (forgot what Cora's lady's maid's name was, so.....) comes clean with everything and fully gains Cora's trust.  Good.

 

Rose is still Rose - good intentions but bad timing.  I still like her though.

 

Did Edith directly piss off God or Buddha or The Fates at some point?  Because I don't think shit can get any worse for her.....but they probably are.

 

The Socialist Lady loves irritating Robert, doesn't she?  Maybe it's a fetish?

 

I was actually starting to tear up during the scene where the Dowager Countess reunited with the old Russian prince.

 

Next episode - is Thomas shooting up?  Oh, dear!

Edited January 19, 2015 by bmoore4026

[LittleIggy]

Granny had good taste back in the day! I love Rade S. (won't even try to spell the last name).

Robert, STFU!

[MaryHedwig]

I laughed out loud over Violet's comment about wanting her servants to only be human beings on their days off. What made it funny to me was that she puts this little smile on her face after she says it as though that's going to sweeten what is a pretty awful comment to make; it's like she wants it to almost seem like a joke but not really and of course Isobel and the audience know that she is indeed perfectly serious

.This.  Maggie Smith is a master at this.  I would watch this show just as faithfully if it only contained scenes of Violet.  May Violet live forever, or may the series die the moment she does.

[Charlie Baker]

"You're all heart." I love Penelope Wilton, that's all.

[mikem]

I think Edith is oblivious to how Mrs Drewe feels for the same reason that Mary hasn't thought at all about how asking Anna to take the birth control will affect Anna.  Edith and Mary grew up having those around them cater to their every whim.  It doesn't occur to them to think about how their actions affect those they consider beneath them (like the wife of an employee, or a servant).

 

Bunting has almost become a parody of herself.  She can't socialize for 3 minutes without offending someone?  No wonder she never seems to have any social plans.

 

Baxter's story has been dragged out for so many episodes, and it's still really uninteresting to me.  Of course, JF wouldn't give her anything but a sympathetic backstory.

Edited January 19, 2015 by mikem

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Granny had good taste back in the day! I love Rade S. (won't even try to spell the last name).

Robert, STFU!

Can't blame Violet for getting the vapors, Rade's swag stays on point.

Bates was best described by some reviewer three seasons ago as "A man limping around looking for another sword to fall on.'

:DEAD:

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm not too fond of how we're slowly getting dragged back into the murder story. Cora and Mr. Bricker are adorable together! Too bad Cora is married :(. Robert really doesn't have the right to be angry that someone is actually paying attention to Cora, because has he forgotten about maid Jane (or whatever her name was) back in season 2? All he's been doing is shutting Cora out of everything, like in this episode where he shuts down her inquiry about the houses.

Why can't Mary get rid of whatever she used herself? Anna is gonna get into so much trouble when someone finds the whatever-it-is.

Go away Ms. Bunting! You are a good teacher, but otherwise you cause nothing but trouble. I kinda love how Robert blatantly loathes her.

Oh, Edith. What did you expect was going to happen?

Already ship Violet and the prince. Knowing my luck, however, they'll probably go their separate ways like Mrs. Hughes did with that guy way back in season 1.

Not gonna lie, there wasn't enough Baxley for my liking. They are what I look forward to most during Downton nowadays.

Is Tony trying to get in good with Isobel or something? His randomly thanking her was really weird. She treats him no different than the rest.

[Greta]

 

The Socialist Lady loves irritating Robert, doesn't she?  Maybe it's a fetish?

 

O.M.G. That's it.  We're in for a round of hate sex.

[TVFAN]

I just had a wild thought, but I'm not sure if the timing is right.  Could Green have been the footman who used Baxter?  I know she provided a different name, but if someone is that horrible, he must have a million aliases.  And , if so, could she be the one who killed him?  Help me out with the timing everyone.  Was she working for Lady Cora when he raped Anna?  I can't remember.  

Edited January 19, 2015 by TVFAN

[heebiejeebie]

I'm gathering that the whole ride Tony to see if you want to put him the garage was really nothing more than churnign water for Mary and making sure to hammer a few more nails into the crosses that the poor poor miscommunicating Bates' must both bear.  I'd sell everything I own and completely be the sole support of the closest PBS station for a year if i could get a promise that the two of them would hang by the end of this season.  I'm so tired of them.

 

The Russian outrage might have been rooted in some historical truth, but to me it just screamed a set up to put Bunting at odds once again with Robert.  Fellowes doesn't just milk a cow dry, he takes the shoes he made from the carcass and shakes them over a glass in hopes.    Nicholas might have been mourned as a symbol of what was lost, but considering how his own family not to mention any nobles who were part of the court considered him, I think the real anger of exiles would have been to blame poor Nicky for their predicament as much as mourn him.  Fellowes did wiki how the revolution process started in Russia didn't he?  Of course he didn't. 

 

Can edith just die of grief already?  How many times do we get to see her stumble past someone else barely holding back tears?  i'm guessing she has to trip over Isis at some point and kill what Robert loves most since she didn't burn the whole place down.  Or introduce some contagion when she sneaks into the Drewes' cottage and brings it back to George and Sybbie.    Since they seem to be dropping Germany as a possible plotline for her she can't be blamed for Hitler. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by heebiejeebie

[bmoore4026]

Fellowes doesn't just milk a cow dry, he takes the shoes he made from the carcass and shakes them over a glass in hopes.

 

Love the imagery. :)

[Eegah]

I adore Rade Serbedzija, and I look forward to seeing where his storyline goes. Unfortunately, it also comes at the expense of the improvements I noted last week. Bunting is once again the reverse-Sorkin strawman who acts like an idiot and a jerk so we might have a chance to not notice that she's the one on the right side of history. The Bolshevicks were assholes, but that doesn't make the Czar and the nobles any less assholes, and these guys acting like they would have pissed on a peasant on fire just makes me giggle uncontrollably.