S05.E02: Episode Two

[CeeBeeGee]

You would have loved "The Tudors."  There were about a million characters named "Tom" or "Thomas" although to be fair, most of them were Lord Something or other so they didn't have their names used too often

 

My browser is wonky so I'm not sure who originally wrote this.  But the repetition of certain English names is kind of a joke among historians.  After Catherine of Aragon came onto the scene, about 15 years later you saw a ton of Catherines--including Henry VIII's 5th and 6th wives, both of whom were named after his first wife.  (As was Katherine Willoughby, Parr's best friend.)  When Henry became big news, you saw a lot of Henrys.  But the big one?  Thomas of Canterbury.  His martyrdom at Canterbury led to generations upon generations of English boys being named Thomas.  Thomas Cranmer, Thomas Cromwell, Thomas Howard, Thomas Boleyn, Thomas Culpeper, the list went on and on.

[Andorra]

Matthew was a few years older than Dan Stevens. He was born 1885 and died 1921, which is what his gravestone says.

 

Dan Stevens was only 30 when Matthew died so his character was supposed to be 6 years older than he is.

 

That makes it more likely that Isobel Crawley had him in her early 30s instead in her late 30s. Probably just the same age as Mary has George now.

[saki]

I think the way that they pair Isobel with the Dowager makes it appear like she's older.  In fact, she's in between Cora and Violet in age but in terms of the dynamic of the show, it wouldn't make sense for Isobel to spend more time with Cora.

[pasdetrois]

Oops, moving this to Speculation thread

Edited January 15, 2015 by pasdetrois

[jschoolgirl]

Time on Marie Stopes, birth control, and Downton Abbey.

[Captain I0]

I'm torn over Mary's little trip away with Gillingham. On the one hand, I really want a woman to be able to have the freedom to do what she wants, but on the other hand, I can't help feeling that it's Mary's turn to have something blow up in her face! And Anna didn't, after all, wait around to get the instructions for the diaphragm...

 

Well, that's certainly another way for her to avoid getting pregnant on this trip.

 

[taanja]

Well, that's certainly another way for her to avoid getting pregnant on this trip.

 

Oh it's going to blow up Mary's face alright. She is going to be forced to marry Tony Gillingham (< Is that his name?) and he will turn out to be a real shit. And she said she doesn't want to get divorced. So will she stay in an unhappy marriage?

 

This is all pure speculation ---I know nuthin'!

[Portia]

Has anyone worked out whether Cora and the art guy have met before? Wonder if we'll see some more of that steamy flirting. So, my husband and I play this game where we make fun of Elizabeth McGovern's limited facial expressions. You say, for example, "This is Cora being angry," then you give The Look. Then the other person says something like, "This is Cora being worried," followed by The Look. Anyway, we were able to add a new variation: "This is Cora flirting." Good times.

[blackwing]

Is the actress who plays Sarah Bunting part-Asian or mixed race?  She looks part-Asian to me.  Seems like they are portraying this character as white?  England in the 1920s was apparently very white, considering the stir that was brought about by that jazz singer from last season.

[heebiejeebie]

Well, that's certainly another way for her to avoid getting pregnant on this trip.

 

 

 

And here Anna could have just gone to the store about some fresh handkerchiefs instead of the mortification of birth control.

[Maya]

Re: Baxter's thieving past. I'm kind of mad at Molesley's reaction to her. Has he never made a mistake that he regrets and is now sorry for? Why is he acting like this is such a foreign concept? She didn't do it to him, and it was before he met her.

I kind of hope there is no back story, she just did something stupid in the past and is now sorry. Just because Molesley is bugging me so much.

[DHDancer]

Also, woof is an alternative for weft, so the expression is often warp and woof, therefore correct.

 

Well, you learn something every day. Definitely not part of my British education ...

[Pallas]

And the interesting thing for Mary is who has the greater "status"?  Gillingham or Blake?  Mary's all about position power (and if the sex is also good, then so much the better).  She is not going to marry down the social scale because that will undermine everything she's been raised to accept.

 

Heard throughout the land, first on one side of the Atlantic and then the other: the droll chuckles of the audience when when Gillingham revealed to Mary that Blake was actually a fledgling aristo, a peer-in-waiting.  How thoroughly Matthew of him to be so!  But then again, how thoroughly Matthew of Gillingham to reveal this, in the interests of fair play!   

 

I wonder though how Mary's changed position from the opening of the story might affect her choice of a second husband.  She now holds Matthew's share of the estate, and she is now mother to the Viscount, heir of the Earldom.  If she's not all about a title for herself, she is very well set up to make her own way in life and society.  And she would have reason to want to protect her own assets and George's inheritance from being squandered by a feckless consort: she doesn't have to look far for an example of that possibility.  

 

Magpye29's speculations about Gillingham are compelling.  So, what to make of Gillingham's sporting disclosure to Mary, about Blake?  Was Tony that canny -- assuming she'd be more moved by his gesture, than by the fact itself (which of course, she could eventually have learned from other sources)?  Or has his two-year dry kiss upon the glass casket of Snow White taken a toll on his character?  

[CeeBeeGee]

Any history scholars know if that was  the king's speech on the wireless? The one that Colin Firth (?) portrayed in the movie?

 

Different king.  Colin Firth's king, George VI, didn't gain the throne until 1936--remember that speech is about the rise of Nazism.  Downton Abbey is still in the '20s.

[Avaleigh]

Heard throughout the land, first on one side of the Atlantic and then the other: the droll chuckles of the audience when when Gillingham revealed to Mary that Blake was actually a fledgling aristo, a peer-in-waiting.

 

 

Blake is actually in line to become a baronet rather than a peer. Still if Mary married him when he inherits she might go by Lady Blake. What I'm unclear about is whether or not she'd be able to call herself Lady Mary Blake and whether or not an Earl's daughter would outrank the wife of a baronet.

 

Basically Charles is going to inherit more money while Gillingham can get Mary a better title since he's viscount. 

 

She now holds Matthew's share of the estate, and she is now mother to the Viscount, heir of the Earldom.

 

 

George doesn't have the title of viscount because Matthew never inherited. If Matthew had inherited the earldom then George would have had the courtesy title of Viscount Downton.

[Pallas]

Thank you, Avaleigh, for both corrections!  The first might suggest why Tony was moved to reveal that Blake was heir to a baronetcy: (1) Tony got full marks for the disclosure, while knowing that (2) Matthew's widow was not likely to be overawed by the money that Blake is heir to, and (3) mentioning Blake's future title underscores Gillingham's own -- not only does a Viscount outrank a Baronet by two orders, a Baronet is not even a peer.

 

And if this was Gillingham's strategy, I'm with Mary:  I'm not sure she's smarter than that. 

[Mrsjumbo]

Oh it's going to blow up Mary's face alright. She is going to be forced to marry Tony Gillingham (< Is that his name?) and he will turn out to be a real shit. And she said she doesn't want to get divorced. So will she stay in an unhappy marriage?

This is all pure speculation ---I know nuthin'!

[Mrsjumbo]

My speculation is that Mary will get pregnant on the trip- anna never got the instructions- so she will get engaged or marry Tony. Then it will be revealed that he did kill Greene, and Mary will lose her good name.

I would love for Tom to get a love interest. I still detest Bunting.

I don't like the hint of a romance between Carson & mrs Hughes. Not EVERYONE has to be paired up.

I love me some Thomas. I don't care if he's just plotting & smoking.

The Marigold story- I agree with the previous posters that said we don't know anything about Drewe's wife. She may be a gossip & if this huge secret gets out, his job is toast. Look how many secrets that Anna & Bates keep/have kept from each other as husband & wife.

The Marigold storyline vaguely reminds me of Silas Marner- the illegitimate child raised by the poor person while the real, wealthy parent cannot reveal themselves as such but show an interest in the child.

[CeeBeeGee]

The memoirs comment seemed contrived to me, too-- like a wink to the modern-day trend of tell-alls by royal insiders.

  I thought Bates murdered him!

 

Marion Crawford, aka "Crawfie," the governess of the Princesses of York (the later Queen Elizabeth and her younger sister Princess Margaret), wrote a tell-all in 1950 which resulted in her complete ban from royal circles (a shame, as the book is very innocuous and loving).  Memoirs aren't as modern as we may think.

And the interesting thing for Mary is who has the greater "status"?  Gillingham or Blake?  Mary's all about position power (and if the sex is also good, then so much the better).  She is not going to marry down the social scale because that will undermine everything she's been raised to accept.

 

Mary was engaged to Carlisle who was considerably further down the social scale than she.  Of course he did have lots of money.

 

Blake is actually in line to become a baronet rather than a peer. Still if Mary married him when he inherits she might go by Lady Blake. What I'm unclear about is whether or not she'd be able to call herself Lady Mary Blake and whether or not an Earl's daughter would outrank the wife of a baronet.

 

I believe she would be entitled to call herself Lady Mary Blake, as the honorific of Lady is one to which she is entitled through birth (her father), rather than marriage.  Examples include Lady Sarah Chatto, Lady Sarah McQuorquodale, Lady Jane Fellowes, etc.  Have no idea on who would outrank whom.

[Avaleigh]

I believe she would be entitled to call herself Lady Mary Blake, as the honorific of Lady is one to which she is entitled through birth (her father), rather than marriage.  Examples include Lady Sarah Chatto, Lady Sarah McQuorquodale, Lady Jane Fellowes, etc.  Have no idea on who would outrank whom.

 

 

Those women all married men without titles though. The two Sarahs married men without titles and Jane Fellowes has gone by Lady Fellowes since her husband became a peer for life back in 1999. Prior to that she went by Lady Jane Fellowes. Actually I guess that answers my question. (Thanks CeeBeeJee!) Mary would be Lady Blake if she were to marry Charles and he inherits the baronetcy. 

Edited January 16, 2015 by Avaleigh

[pasdetrois]

 

I think anyone who is waiting on more closure for Michael Gregson will be sorely disappointed.

I posted a newspaper critic's comment about Gregson's fate in the Season 5 Speculation Without Spoilers thread. It doesn't reveal any details but indicates whether we will discover his fate.

[ZoloftBlob]

I wholeheartedly agree.   He seems to be "cutting off his nose to spite his face."   An occasional fond mention of Matthew would invoke the "golden age" of this show and, if even for a moment, make the old place -- and the current plot lines -- seem less empty.

 

Per this article - http://pagesix.com/2015/01/11/downtown-forgets-but-doesnt-forgive-abrupt-dan-stevens-departure/ - admittedly the NY Post so believe it as you like - Fellowes is making the choice to never mention Matthew by name again.

 

Which is delightfully bitter, but apparently Allan Leech is past it....

[Hanahope]

I thought that Anna did get the instructions, in written form, but she didn't wait around around to have the lady pharmacist explain them more thoroughly to her.  I thought the lady pharmacist said something to the effect of - 'I can explain the instructions more to you' and Anna (running off) said "i'm sure they're fine."

[Andorra]

 

 

Per this article - http://pagesix.com/2015/01/11/downtown-forgets-but-doesnt-forgive-abrupt-dan-stevens-departure/ - admittedly the NY Post so believe it as you like - Fellowes is making the choice to never mention Matthew by name again.

 

Which is delightfully bitter, but apparently Allan Leech is past it....

 

Dan and Allen are still good friends. Allen Leech says they always see each other when he is in New York or Dan is in London.

 

Allen also joked in an interview this week: "Technically Tom Branson killed Matthew Crawley", because if he hadn't married Sybil, he would have driven Matthew home and nothing would have happened.

[Milburn Stone]

Whatever the opposite of getting turned-on is, is what I feel by seeing Mary and Gillingham in adjoining rooms.

[taanja]

 

My speculation is that Mary will get pregnant on the trip- anna never got the instructions- so she will get engaged or marry Tony. Then it will be revealed that he did kill Greene, and Mary will lose her good name.

 

I like it! I am thinking pregnancy as well. But I think Blake will step up and marry Mary thus keeping her from "losing her good name"

 

Those supposedly throw away lines of "What kind of man raises another man's child"  and consistently showing Blake as an honorable man. yup. he will "save" Mary from being shamed as a single mother when Gillingham is revealed to be the murderer of his valet.

 

My 2 cents worth...

 

[annzeepark914]

I like it! I am thinking pregnancy as well. But I think Blake will step up and marry Mary thus keeping her from "losing her good name"

 

Those supposedly throw away lines of "What kind of man raises another man's child"  and consistently showing Blake as an honorable man. yup. he will "save" Mary from being shamed as a single mother when Gillingham is revealed to be the murderer of his valet.

 

My 2 cents worth...

Hmmm...verrrrrry interesting!  But then, I'm on Team Blake so of course I can see the nobility of it all.  Love that Blake.

[Milburn Stone]

GILLINGHAM: I'm going to make mad love to you all night.

 

Second prize is I'm going to make mad love to you for two nights.

[Constantinople]

I like it! I am thinking pregnancy as well. But I think Blake will step up and marry Mary thus keeping her from "losing her good name"

 

I'd be surprised if Blake were willing to raise and eventually pass of the barontecy to Gillingham's moronspawn

[izabella]

All of these nefarious Gillingham plots are building up my expectations, so I'll be vastly disappointed if it just turns out that Sex Week was a dud and they finally move on from each other, enter Blake. 

[Mrsjumbo]

I liked Evelyn Napier for Mary, more than Gillingham or Blake.

[craziness]

I thought the funniest line of the show was when Robert was talking about the wireless and saying something about people "sitting around staring at a box". Made me think of all the DA fans sitting around each Sunday, staring at a box. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...

[Black Knight]

Tony has always seemed a decent sort to me and never given me any evil vibes, but the speculation is interesting. But, one problem with the he's-after-Mary's-money theory: Wasn't he engaged or nearly so to another rich woman? But ultimately ended things because he just couldn't marry someone else when he loved Mary, even though Mary had given him no real reason to hope? So if he only wants to marry for money and not for love, he could have done that a while ago and not had to bother with the "competition" with Blake for Mary.

 

I wish Mary and Edith were a little closer, because during Mary's various conversations about wanting to know a man better before she marries him, both sexually and otherwise, all I could think was that Edith would certainly have some interesting things to say. And, ironically, despite her pregnancy she would probably have been more supportive than Anna. We saw that Edith did spend a lot of time with Michael Gregson during her trips to London, including in his home, and of course they did have sex. I like Mary and Anna's relationship a lot, but I would like seeing a conversation between Mary and Edith on the subject even more. Both for what Edith would say and for Mary's shocked reaction upon learning her spinster sister has actually been more daring than Mary's ever imagined her capable of being.

[SusanSunflower]

Just watched:  Shocked, Dockery is playing Mary like some automaton at least in the first extended breakfast (?) screen but off and on throughout -- Yikes -- She needs to not do this. She is not that much of an actress, at best but this is not good for her resume. There were brief moments, but Mary (Michelle) is so wooden, I didn't want Blake to end up with her. I like him too much. She's going to play games and exasperate her but it won't be "Bringing Up Baby" -- More like "My Man Godfrey" and he'll get bored. I was delighted that Blake was allowed to be flickeringly angry and Mary did not get too too "Scarlett O'Hara" about a beau not broken hearted (but old Scarlett was instantly recognizable).  Hah, an ex-beau going to bed because he actually wasn't engaging in verbal foreplay and has no desire to "match wits." It might not be Blake, but I'm fairly sure it's not Gillingham -- there is no real spark on either side -- much too matrimonial and they're not even engaged. Moseley and Baxter have become MVP's in my book. Loathed Moseley (like we were all supposed to) but that actor is a god-send. Happy to see Daisy and Mrs. Pattimore and Mrs Hughes -- like old times. Something big is going to happen next episode with Tom and Sarah Bunting and the Russians (or that's what I'm guessing they are and why they are turning up now. Again, it may not be Blake.

Anna with the contraceptives bafflingly left out RELIGION, specifically Anna's. Even if not Catholic, the stigma of contraception, not the diaphragm, the wrongness of not wanting to have babies or interfering with "the natural order of things" was something that you wouldn't want anyone else knowing about YOU. Like abortion today  -- it's nobody's business and not values-neutral to most people -- as it was not to the pharmacist's wife/assistant.  Also, sort of like in the 1950's, when many men didn't want their wife to work because people would think they were inadequate providers. Anna and Bates have no children -- who's got the plumbing problem????  -- What would people think if the pharmacist let slip? They may well think that Bates is too old -- if she's needing contraception, Anna's fooling around. I think we all think it's high probability that Bates will find it and ...off to the races... Anna doesn't WANT children.

Tired of Violet needling Isobel -- it's so second season. There were good things -- Rose (and her actress) is becoming 3-D, which with the others becoming Tussard actually just makes them look more Tussard. So much unnecessary stuffiness and bother with Robert -- not even making him unilkeable -- making him ridiculous and contrived.

Better luck next week.  I'm looking forward to the Russians!!!

Edited January 18, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[pasdetrois]

Regarding marrying for money and Downtown, would it not be known that Downtown has been struggling for money? Or would Donk's mismanagement of affairs have been a deeply dark secret? I have a vague memory of other shows where the landed aristocracy always knew each others' financial business. Maybe one or both of Mary's suitors are aware of the financial struggle but are in pursuit of the prestige.

[Miss Chevious]

OK, so Mary's running off with Tony Gillingham for sex week. But she's still keeping Charles Blake dangling. I wonder if things (i.e. the sex) turn out to be not so great with Tony, is she going to run back to Charles?  There's something definitely shady about Tony. His line about lying and how to be a good liar sounded like he'd had a lot of practice in that department. Plus what was the real reason he dumped that rich lady he was supposed to be engaged to? Maybe he will turn out to be really despicable (bumped off his own valet?) so that way if Mary does run back to Blake, it will look like she did the right thing when Tony is found out to be a bad guy.

[SusanSunflower]

It would be great if Blake could replace Matthew for Tom ... wouldn't it?  and Rose could be their moll (a sort of new bobble-head Sybil) joined by SchoolTeacher lady and Daisy -- team-mates against the obvious old guard. I think Isobel would join in a heartbeat as well with Mrs. Hughes (I'm always thinking Bridges and correcting myself).  Hughes and Carson as the downstairs analog. I was startled how young and healthy Bates looked and moved about in contrast to how fat, old and stiff (physically) Carson has been made to be (the actor is an athlete).  They were briefly in the same shot which also made me realize that Bates has been relegated to background, nearly invisible except with Anna (or am I misremembering) which is really not the best way to deal with Bates & the Hangman fatigue (neither is Green's Death Mystery obviously) but making him into Anna's Self-Involved Husband without other storylines except Green's Mysterious Death is to kill any interest in the character (who almost certainly isn't leaving the show).

Edited January 18, 2015 by SusanSunflower