S01.E11: Rogues' Gallery

[Athena]

This was a let down compared to the previous episode. I really missed Alfred (and Bruce) in this episode. The best thing about the episode was Bullock. Fun!

 

Can't stand Barbara/Montoya angst. It's awful to think that Barbara is suppose to become the mother to one of my favourite DC heroines. Ugh. Just go away, Barbara.

[Sandman]

While Barbara and Montoya were emoting about breaking up, I was fixating on the fact that there's a chain lock on the inside of the bedroom door in the Montoya/Barbara breakup scene. Does Montoya have a one-room apartment? Are  they at a hotel? There's no checkout notice on the back of the door; how can it be a hotel? It's too posh-looking for a flophouse, isn't it? What's going on here?

 

So, yeah: that's how compelling I found the relationship between Babs and Renée.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Sandman

[shapeshifter]

Oswald is a great character but I'm glad Maroni made an example of him this week.

I can't recall any other series building a bad guy in quite this way: Nearly every week we see Cobblepot taken down and physically abused, only to bounce back with a bigger chip of evil on his double-dealing shoulder.

 

Good to see Christopher Heyerdahl again - I remember him from various sci-fi shows (Stargate, Sanctuary and the like).

Thank you for not making me look that up. ;)

[Danielg342]

THIS!

His last dying word, would've been a perfect time.

Still was nice to see another actor from The Wire on the show.

They stay working and getting paid.

LOL...would have been funny. I guess they were afraid of offending network censors...but then again, there are ways around it. For example, why not sprinkle the script with references to “sheets”, like sheet music and “sheets of records” and the like?

[Milz]

While Barbara and Montoya were emoting about breaking up, I was fixating on the fact that there's a chain lock on the inside of the bedroom door in the Montoya/Barbara breakup scene. Does Montoya have a one-room apartment? Are  they at a hotel? There's no checkout notice on the back of the door; how can it be a hotel? It's too posh-looking for a flophouse, isn't it? What's going on here?

 

So, yeah: that's how compelling I found the relationship between Babs and Renée.

 

I noticed that chain lock too. There's no kitchen area in it either (from what we've seen) so I doubt the room was a studio apartment. Could it be a boarding house? Maybe.

 

The other thing I couldn't figure out is Dumbara owns an art gallery. So what's happened to that for the last month(s) Dumbara's been sliding into the dark side?  And seriously, if my name was on the lease and I broke up with my boyfriend, the last thing I would do is leave it without changing the locks so he can continue living there/going there as he pleased. But then, this IS Dumbara we're talking about so anything is possible.

[Raachel2008]

Look, there is a shitload of poorly written bad characters on TV, but even bad tropes earn their place on screen provided the actor or actress can act. Erin Richards cannot act or at least doesn't have enough experience to overcome bad writing. She had some chemistry with Ben McKenzie in those very two first episodes where she didn't do much, but once they gave her anything, she just sucked. Victoria Cartagena has somehow a bit of better material, but she is not that good either. So, as far as I'm concerned, Bruno Heller still has very little talent writing female characters, but Babs can go, now. I'm all for Montoya in comics, but this version can leave now, too.

 

I don't care if Leslie is not supposed to be Gordon's love interest, the chemistry is there and Morena and Ben play off of each other well. Go for it, kids.

 

I adore Bullock, that big bunch of grumpy bear.

 

Some of the best scenes in this show are between Oswald and Maroni, but I agree that there was too much going on this episode.

 

Word to the poster who said "enough Selyna". I like the actress and I like Selina, but enough with the smart streetkid anthics. 

[Kromm]

Wow.  McKenzie had more chemistry with Morena Baccarin within a single scene then in every episode added together of him and Erin Richards.

Then again Morena Baccarin could have chemistry with a rock.

[Milz]

Look, there is a shitload of poorly written bad characters on TV, but even bad tropes earn their place on screen provided the actor or actress can act. Erin Richards cannot act or at least doesn't have enough experience to overcome bad writing. She had some chemistry with Ben McKenzie in those very two first episodes where she didn't do much, but once they gave her anything, she just sucked. Victoria Cartagena has somehow a bit of better material, but she is not that good either. So, as far as I'm concerned, Bruno Heller still has very little talent writing female characters, but Babs can go, now. I'm all for Montoya in comics, but this version can leave now, too.

 

I think she doesn't have the experience to deal with the bad writing. The female characters, so far, have been one-dimensional. Selina is the stereotypic, smart alek smirking kid that we've all seen before on countless tv programs. It's getting to the point that I want them to introduce tweener Talia al Ghul or Zatanna, just so one of them can kick Cat ass from Gotham to the moon.

 

Ivy seems interesting, but something tells me, she'll become a 1-D character soon. Montoya= 1 D with her only reason for being a Gotham character was to destabilize the Dumbara-Jim relationship (didn't need Montoya to do that--the way Dumbara is written.) Essen is 1-D and exists as a shout-out to the comics. Fish is a 1-D Big Bad wannabe: I'll be cheering when Falcone or Penguin finish her off.

[Sandman]

It's getting to the point that I want them to introduce tweener Talia al Ghul ...

 

Please, no.

 

I have no particular attachment to or feeling for this character in the comics canon, but the last Nolan Batman movie left a bad taste in my mouth, and the Talia character, half-cooked mess of undermotivated crazy that she was, formed a big part of that. I actually find the actress playing Selina rather charming, and I can buy that Cat is a smart kid with at least some survival skills. Ivy I'm far less interested in, and I find her brand of crazy feels like something I've seen too much of on tv already. I think the show relies too much on everyone in Gotham being at least potentially off his or her rocker. Including Bore-bara Kean.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Sandman

[Raachel2008]

Selina is the stereotypic, smart alek smirking kid that we've all seen before on countless tv programs. It's getting to the point that I want them to introduce tweener Talia al Ghul or Zatanna, just so one of them can kick Cat ass from Gotham to the moon.

 

 

I don't want them to introduce anyone else, the show has enough characters as it is. Camren Bicondova IS good, she plays the trope to perfection since she doesn't have the material to do something different. In a way is the same problem with Bore-bara (tm Sandman) and Montoya, but with a different result because she can act. 

[Milz]

Please, no.

 

I have no particular attachment to or feeling for this character in the comics canon, but the last Nolan Batman movie left a bad taste in my mouth, and the Talia character, half-cooked mess of undermotivated crazy that she was, formed a big part of that. I actually find the actress playing Selina rather charming, and I can buy that Cat is a smart kid with at least some survival skills. Ivy I'm far less interested in, and I find her brand of crazy feels like something I've seen too much of on tv already. (I find the show relies too much on everyone in Gotham being at least potentially off his or her rocker.

 

A teen Talia would be developing her crazy, like Ivy is developing hers.  As for Selina and Camren Bicondova, I think she and Bruno Heller have seen Andrew Lloyd Webber's Cats one too many times.  Yeah, I get it---she's gonna grow up to be Catwoman. But almost every episode of her exhibiting cat-like characteristics is getting boring, imo. It's insulting to viewers when a writer has to keep reminding them of a concept every second of screen time. Not to mention,  I think Heller's  inspirations for the "tv teen girl" include Dee from What's Happening, Gidget, Blossom, Becca from Life Goes On, and Jo from The Facts of Life---because that's the jumble of characters I see in Cat: Dee's smart aleck/sarcastic nature, Gidget's and Blossum's cuteness, Becca's wisdom beyond her teen years, and Jo's tough girl from the streets attitude.

[Raja]

Is there a reason why the holding cell is in the middle of the main detectives' office?

Because that's how it was done on Barney Miller, live before a studio audience. Law and Order SVU doesn't have the sitcom defense.

[paigow]

That part did seem like Soprano outtakes.

The meat store in the Sopranos was Satriali's. I thought Butch was going to say it....

Maybe the mother of Barbara Gordon is an Arkham patient / inmate as most of them are hot for Jim.

[Dobian]

I think she doesn't have the experience to deal with the bad writing. The female characters, so far, have been one-dimensional. Selina is the stereotypic, smart alek smirking kid that we've all seen before on countless tv programs. It's getting to the point that I want them to introduce tweener Talia al Ghul or Zatanna, just so one of them can kick Cat ass from Gotham to the moon.

Talia would be cool, and of course her father.

 

At least Barbara could have been the one to break it off with Renee, you know, in recognition of how stupid she was to betray Gordon like that.  But no, she'll come running back to him because her gf dumped her, and he's going to have to lower himself to take her back.  Weak.

[CatMomma]

 

As a matter of fact, with the way they're writing Barbara she seems to be designed to illicit the most negative reaction possible. They're been hitting EVERY single "this woman is a terribly idiotic BITCH" trope they possibly can with her.

 

I have to wonder if the writers are trying to make us hate her because, I'm sorry, she doesn't have chemistry with anyone.  Every damn scene since the show started is her in lingerie, lounging around in an apartment.  Dr. Leslie Thompkins probably had more lines and action than Barbara has had during the entire show.

[Malbec]

I think the writing AND acting for Renee/Barbara are in a race to the bottom.  It's really aggravating because in theory, this is a couple I would be shipping like Fed Ex.  But they are just a void of terrible writing and the actresses have NO chemistry.  Hell, Bullock had better chemistry with Cobblepot when he was taunting him in the holding cell.

 

It's especially disappointing coming from Bruno Heller -- while the female characters on The Mentalist weren't groundbreaking or anything, they were well-cast and there was generally a respectable effort to make them three-dimensional and plot-relevant.  He CAN do better.

 

Back to Bullock, though, I kind of want to start the petition to make him the main character.  Donal Logue was on fire this episode!

[ratgirlagogo]

 

No kidding, Bullock's excitement at seeing Jim was so great to see.  And the two of them playing off the director, with Jim trying to be serious, was such fun.

 

Back to Bullock, though, I kind of want to start the petition to make him the main character.  Donal Logue was on fire this episode!

While I always find Donal the best part of every episode, even I can't see him as the main character.  But it was pretty amazing how that display of (go figure!) actual human emotions of happiness and affection just lifted up the whole show. 

 

 

Wow.  McKenzie had more chemistry with Morena Baccarin within a single scene then in every episode added together of him and Erin Richards.

So true and so sad.  I've been looking forward to her and she delivered right on schedule.

 

I know people don't particularly like Barbara but I think she is hilarious. Maybe I just like hot messes. Especialy female ones.

If she really DID come across as a hot female mess I would love her too.  But she doesn't.  Kudos to the recapper, by the way, for even noticing those pill bottles on the night table.  I was kind of blinking in confusion through the whole opening scene, wondering where the "toxic" shit was happening.  I have complained before about the cliche bisexual woman stuff - but hell, let her be just TOTALLY FUCKED UP.  Edie Sedgwick! Janis Joplin!  Amy Winehouse! Courtney Love!   Edie Sedgwick would be the best one because of the fucked up rich girl thing.  And Gordon would be trying to save her - and also kind of into her wild fucked upness.  As it is she's just dull, doesn't seem to want to fuck either Gordon OR Montoya, and never seems like she's high, or would want to get high. 

[HalcyonDays]

I adore Bullock, that big bunch of grumpy bear.

 

I absolutely LOVE this. HIlarious. I just grinned with glee when he showed up and kissed Jim hello. Hilarious. I truly love his character.

 

Allyce Beasley! (the Nurse) I was like, that woman has barely aged! I thought they hinted well at how they knew it was the nurse. The director I think said that the staff had all been together for 5 years. When he looked at the list, he realized the nurse was not one of those ones there for so long. But either was Morrena Baccarin's doctor character either, so it was a slight misdirect, but not really.

 

Penguin, Penguin, Penguin. I like his deviousness, and trying to become top dog. The problem with him is the physical part. All it takes is one good punch to take him down, and he becomes a simpering fool, cowering at everyone's feet. Someone like Maroni, Falcone or even Fish, all they need to do is have one of the Muscles punch Penguin (hell, lightly it seems) and that's it. He's on the ground knocked out, then you can simply tie him up, throw him in the trunk and dispose of him. That's it. He's just not a threat to me. It's the only part that I don't like. He just seems so ineffectual when even remotely physically threatened. Good episode.

 

Christopher Heyerdahl's character - which villain does he become? I'm not familiar enough with the Batman-verse to figure it out.

[Agent Dark]

Christopher Heyerdahl's character - which villain does he become? I'm not familiar enough with the Batman-verse to figure it out.

Hugo Strange it would seem, a villain notable for being one of the very few bad guys to have figured out the identity of Batman.  The trailer for Batman: Arkham City is pretty good for a brief overview of his character

) Edited January 7, 2015 by Agent Dark

[HalcyonDays]

Thanks, Agent Dark! Gotta read up on Hugo Strange. BTW, love your moniker!!

[Dobian]

I loved Batman: Arkham City, it covers so much of the Batman lore. It will be great if this guy does turn out to be Hugo Strange.

I have to say that Barbara and Katrina from Sleepy Hollow are neck-and-neck for worst female character on tv. I can't believe the nerve of this bitch. She leaves Gordon on the pretense of taking some time away from Gotham, then shacks up with her old gf instead. She never breaks up with Jim, never tells him about her and Montoya, and then tells Montoya how she shouldn't be jealous because she's over him. She managed to skip over the whole breakup and jump right to the moving on part, how convenient. Then after predictably calling him because she needs a backup now that Montoya dumped her, and she gets punked by Ivy she has the gall to get pissed, amazing.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Dobian

[Trini]

It's especially disappointing coming from Bruno Heller -- while the female characters on The Mentalist weren't groundbreaking or anything, they were well-cast and there was generally a respectable effort to make them three-dimensional and plot-relevant.  He CAN do better.

 

I dunno... there were a few times on The Mentalist where I'm almost sure the writers hated Van Pelt.

[opus]

I have to say that Barbara and Katrina from Sleepy Hollow are neck-and-neck for worst female character on tv.

Not Laurel on ARROW?

[Malbec]

I dunno... there were a few times on The Mentalist where I'm almost sure the writers hated Van Pelt.

Ha!  Yeah... it's not the first show I'd point to for great female characters, but nobody sucked on the level of Barbara or Renee.  (Also, I don't know how popular an opinion this is, but I loved Madeleine Hightower, the boss played by Aunjanue Ellis.)

[MisterGlass]

 

I don't get why Selina didn't use her Bruce connection to help out Ivy other then for the plot had to conveniently have Ivy answer Jim's phone. I'm not a fan of such lazy writing.

 

Well, Selina is only a couple weeks removed from an attempt on her life by professional assassin, so she may be making an effort to lay low.  She knows she can trust Bruce and Gordon, and Gordon's(Barbara's) place is in town, where Selina has the advantage in geography.

 

 

They're really nailing the feel of the general 'depravity' I guess that Arkham has always had in the comics.  The Arkham in this show is definitely one that I can see the Joker and Two Face and Scarecrow at home in.

 

Honestly, I know this is Gotham, The Comic Book Show, and everything is highly stylized, but I really am losing patience with the whole "inmates are either barely human rage-machine monsters or hilarious bags of tics" thing, plus the way-too-long-lasting trend of "let's find the oldest, most falling apart, most depressing and unsafe building in a five hundred mile radius for our Psychiatric Hospital!" What the hell, man? Even if there's no respect for the inmates (and there clearly is not) why would anyone agree to work here?

 

It is a sad depiction.  The re-opening of Arkham is entirely political, and the inmates are victims of it.  The mayor essentially shipped the inmates from prison to the facility, which as Gordon pointed out is horribly understaffed, underfunded, and unsuitable.  It is exactly the situtation the Waynes wanted to avoid, and whcih the corrupt city officials find acceptable and expedient, and therefore symbolizes more of what is wrong in Gotham.  The director may have come from the prison, since he said he and his staff came as a group.  He said that even he was unwilling to go against the behind-the-scenes machinations, and warned Bullock against asking too many questions.  Arkham and its poor inmates are pawns to someone. 

[benteen]

I know people don't particularly like Barbara but I think she is hilarious. Maybe I just like hot messes. Especialy female ones.

 

Erin Richards was part of the Gotham panel at NYCC and she was a funny, charming blast.  I like the actress a lot but it's almost impossible to like the character.  As one of the posters pointed out, we're supposed to root for her and Jim to get back together after she cheats on him with Montoya and then gets dumped by her in return?

[Dobian]

Not Laurel on ARROW?

Hmmmm haven't watched Arrow yet.  Should I watch it just to see how bad she is?  LOL.

[Danielg342]

Hugo Strange it would seem, a villain notable for being one of the very few bad guys to have figured out the identity of Batman. The trailer for Batman: Arkham City is pretty good for a brief overview of his character

According to Wiki, Gruber played a character known only as “The Electrocutioner”:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrocutioner#In_other_media

I dunno... there were a few times on The Mentalist where I'm almost sure the writers hated Van Pelt.

That, and Teresa Lisbon- no matter what- always wound up being Patrick Jane's lackey. Robin Tunney made the character confident and authoritative, but that was all on the acting- when you boiled down to what choices the character made, Lisbon ultimately always went along with Jane, going so far as to give up a new job she actually liked because Jane “needed” to work with her.

[Agent Dark]

According to Wiki, Gruber played a character known only as “The Electrocutioner”:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrocutioner#In_other_media

Hmm, not sure where that's come from.  Electrocutioner is a "brawn" type of villain rather than a "brain".  His powers in the comics also came from his shock gloves, and not anything to do with medical/psychology experiments.  Heyerdahls' portrayal of "Jack Gruber" was almost spot on for Hugo Strange though, which makes it hard for me to believe he's meant to be anyone else.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Agent Dark

[Danielg342]

Hmm, not sure where that's come from. Electrocutioner is a "brawn" type of villain rather than a "brain". His powers in the comics also came from his shock gloves, and not anything to do with medical/psychology experiments. Heyerdahls' portrayal of "Jack Gruber" was almost spot on for Hugo Strange though, which makes it hard for me to believe he's meant to be anyone else.

I'd agree too...Heyerdahl even looks like Hugo Strange.

Then again, it is Wiki...who knows how accurate it is.

[Camera One]

For me, the high death count and gratuitous violence made the episode not too fun to watch.

 

I had been looking forward to the world of Arkham but I was a little bored there until Harvey showed up.  That was the best moment... the joy in his eyes, the banter.  I thought this new format would be a nice change, but I found myself missing the old team when they were all in Essen's office.

 

I liked the Nurse and was more interested in her than the actual psycho mastermind.  How did he have enough time out of his cell to do electroshock therapy?  

 

The Barbara parts were just horrible.  I had been optimistic about Renee becoming a better character after she stopped harassing Gordon, but then we got this.  So NOW she realizes it was a mistake to let overmedicated Barbara sleep with her?  They clearly couldn't care less about these characters and if that's the case, stop wasting our time with them.

 

When did Oswald start liking calling himself The Penguin?  That shouldn't have happened off-screen.

 

I have a feeling Butch's real plan is to let Fish "win" and then get rid of her.  

 

I wanted to like Leslie.  Morena Baccarin was awesome in "V" and I think she has potential here.  Though if I hadn't seen her previously, she would have been forgettable.  Her bedside manner wasn't caring at all.  Slapping her patients awake?  Was that supposed to be funny?

 

Having so much happening in one episode and spreading everything thin is on par with the fall episodes of this show.  I missed Bruce and Alfred though.  

Edited January 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Kromm]

When did Oswald start liking calling himself The Penguin?  That shouldn't have happened off-screen.

Arguably it didn't. Oswald got some on-screen advice that he should own up to the name and make it his own.  

[caracas1914]

Jada Pinket Smith; I still can't with her acting on Fish.

It's so hammy without even being fun.

[MarkHB]

It is a sad depiction.  The re-opening of Arkham is entirely political, and the inmates are victims of it.  The mayor essentially shipped the inmates from prison to the facility, which as Gordon pointed out is horribly understaffed, underfunded, and unsuitable.  It is exactly the situtation the Waynes wanted to avoid, and whcih the corrupt city officials find acceptable and expedient, and therefore symbolizes more of what is wrong in Gotham.  The director may have come from the prison, since he said he and his staff came as a group.  He said that even he was unwilling to go against the behind-the-scenes machinations, and warned Bullock against asking too many questions.  Arkham and its poor inmates are pawns to someone. 

 

Let's not forget that part of the Arkham District plan involves not only the reopening of the archaic, creepy hospital, but letting the Maroni's open a toxic waste dump in the immediate vicinity. If I didn't know better, I would say that these inmates are being set up to become crazed comic-book super villains.

 

I am also down with the idea that the "Electrocutioner" will actually become Hugo Strange.  He has the look, the idea of experimenting on various people to have them do his bidding is totally in line... I think Gruber will appear to be killed, and then come back as "Dr. Hugo Strange" in a position of authority at Arkham, and no one but Jim will recognize him until it's too late.

[Litnit]

 As it is she's just dull, doesn't seem to want to fuck either Gordon OR Montoya, and never seems like she's high, or would want to get high. 

So this.  The only clue she has issues are the pill bottles.  Let's see her go dark.  There's certainly enough dark in Gotham to get into.

[Kromm]

The thing is I don't think the show can give on Jim marrying Barbara and having a kid--short of Barb hooking up with an unseen brother of Jim's who shows up in town and creates the "Uncle Jim raised Barbara Junior as his own" version.

So I see this perhaps leading into a dark place. Jim winding up with Barbara being played as a tragedy instead of as a love story. Meaning that poor Leslie Thompkins would be relegated to the role of "lost love" (the other side of the tragedy, if lets say, if Barbara gets pregnant and Leslie is still in the background somewhere).

[Lokiberry]

The thing is I don't think the show can give on Jim marrying Barbara and having a kid--short of Barb hooking up with an unseen brother of Jim's who shows up in town and creates the "Uncle Jim raised Barbara Junior as his own" version.

So I see this perhaps leading into a dark place. Jim winding up with Barbara being played as a tragedy instead of as a love story. Meaning that poor Leslie Thompkins would be relegated to the role of "lost love" (the other side of the tragedy, if lets say, if Barbara gets pregnant and Leslie is still in the background somewhere).

 

That would totally work, because I don't see them being able to pull off Jim/Barbara as functional, rootable couple; more importantly, I don't think they're dumb enough to try. This show has had a few missteps, but it's doing a pretty good job of world-building, so I just can't see them thinking this trainwreck is making people want to see Jim and Barbara together.

 

I really do think this is intentional. Jim will get involved with Leslie, then Barbara will announce that she's pregnant. Jim will feel obligated to marry her. Meanwhile, Leslie can go spend some time in Bruce and Alfred's story, where comic canon says she's supposed to be anyway. Barbara will give birth to baby Babs, and then leave or die or whatever.

[Kromm]

That would totally work, because I don't see them being able to pull off Jim/Barbara as functional, rootable couple; more importantly, I don't think they're dumb enough to try. This show has had a few missteps, but it's doing a pretty good job of world-building, so I just can't see them thinking this trainwreck is making people want to see Jim and Barbara together.

 

I really do think this is intentional. Jim will get involved with Leslie, then Barbara will announce that she's pregnant. Jim will feel obligated to marry her. Meanwhile, Leslie can go spend some time in Bruce and Alfred's story, where comic canon says she's supposed to be anyway. Barbara will give birth to baby Babs, and then leave or die or whatever.

Bingo.

 

I think we need to just accept how likely this all is and find the fun in parts of it (even if we know it's gonna suck from Jim's standpoint).

[MisterGlass]

That may be what happens.  The Gordons hit some rough patches in the comics, to be sure.

 

Or, maybe Leslie has a daughter or niece or foster child coincidentally named Barbara.

[Milz]

While I always find Donal the best part of every episode, even I can't see him as the main character.  But it was pretty amazing how that display of (go figure!) actual human emotions of happiness and affection just lifted up the whole show. 

 

So true and so sad.  I've been looking forward to her and she delivered right on schedule.

If she really DID come across as a hot female mess I would love her too.  But she doesn't.  Kudos to the recapper, by the way, for even noticing those pill bottles on the night table.  I was kind of blinking in confusion through the whole opening scene, wondering where the "toxic" shit was happening.  I have complained before about the cliche bisexual woman stuff - but hell, let her be just TOTALLY FUCKED UP.  Edie Sedgwick! Janis Joplin!  Amy Winehouse! Courtney Love!   Edie Sedgwick would be the best one because of the fucked up rich girl thing.  And Gordon would be trying to save her - and also kind of into her wild fucked upness.  As it is she's just dull, doesn't seem to want to fuck either Gordon OR Montoya, and never seems like she's high, or would want to get high. 

 

The only thing that's a hot mess about Dumbara is the clumsy, poorly executed writing. Hot messes are people who are seemingly intelligent, but consistently get involved with losers (romantically and/or financially). Stupid people getting involved with losers aren't hot messes, just stupid losers. Dumbara falls into the latter, not the former. At this point, Montoya falls more into the "hot mess" category than Dumbara---because she got involved with a loser twice, and if Jim takes Dummy back, he's a hot mess.

[maczero]

Since when does Selina have access to Jim's place? Or is it Barbara's? I can never remember. Also, how did Ivy get past the front desk? Or am I thinking too hard about it.

Selina enters from the patio door off the balcony so it can be assumed that she broke in.  As for Ivy, if the building doesn't have electronic controlled access entry then Ivy could've easily slipped passed the front desk person while they were away (bathroom break, going through packages etc.).

Arkham: Gosh, I so wanted The Tick, Batmanuel, and Arthur to be patients there.

I know these characters but what do they have to do with Goth/Arkham?

[jhlipton]

I suspected Gruber was shady. but I was surprised no one asked about his cousin Hans.
 
Seems like Gruber's getting pretty random results from his tests:
1) Nurse "Agnes" (Nice to see Allyce again!) -- highly functional, not very different from her normal self
2) Frogman in audience -- brain dead
2) "Ariel" -- mind in endless "Tempest" loop.
4) Random strong patient -- seems to be about the same as before
 
We really should have seen some kind of notes.
 

Edited to correct sequence of subjects.
 

Edited January 8, 2015 by jhlipton

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Seems like Gruber's getting pretty random results from his tests:

That's why he's a MAD scientist and not a regular scientist. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when last we saw Barbara she had just started hooking up with Renee again, right? No details about how they decided to get together?

 

How is it possible that they just went to Renee being "I'm tired of this and this is toxic?" Like couldn't they have explicitly shown the toxicity or something that made it clear a) how Renee and Barbara ended up hooking up in the very first place and what was the problem with version 1.0 of their relationship b) why it was that Barbara went for Renee this second time and/or vice versa? 

 

I forget -- has it been established that Gotham has cell phones? Because if they do, the Ivy troll wouldn't work. 

[Trini]

Gotham has cell phones.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Like couldn't they have explicitly shown the toxicity or something

Why, it's almost as though the writers didn't really know what they were doing.  Or something.

[MarkHB]

They have flip phones, not smart phones, and I think we saw Barbara hiding hers under the pillow just as Renee came in with the coffee, which made me think she had been trying to call Jim on it. When that failed, and after the fight, she tried the landline to her apartment.

[jimmora]

Well I'll start out by saying this, don't blame that episode on the Actors.  OK?  I don't care who writes the show, whether its a a High School writer, a Junior College writer, a college writer,  much less a Fox Writer.  When you make turn the plot over 5 times, you ain't going to please anybody.  That was a disgraceful performance in my opinion...they threw that episode, they gave them the freakin episode...in my opinion that sucked.

[Dobian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when last we saw Barbara she had just started hooking up with Renee again, right? No details about how they decided to get together?

 

How is it possible that they just went to Renee being "I'm tired of this and this is toxic?" Like couldn't they have explicitly shown the toxicity or something that made it clear a) how Renee and Barbara ended up hooking up in the very first place and what was the problem with version 1.0 of their relationship b) why it was that Barbara went for Renee this second time and/or vice versa? 

Barbara also never broke up with Jim, never told him she was still in Gotham, never told him she was back with Renee.  They basically jumped from one shot of her in bed with Renee to the breakup with Renee and left everything out in-between.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

They basically jumped from one shot of her in bed with Renee to the breakup with Renee and left everything out in-between.

" Leaving out everything in-between" has kind of been the way the character has been written all season.