S05.E08: Coda

[neece26]

 

The scene of him agonizing over the maggoty leg was sort of silly, especially with a school full of zombies close by.

 

It made no sense that the zombies in the school couldn't break out when the Termites and Bob were sitting right there with a fire burning but they could get out to go after Gabriel.

 

 

[morgankobi]

They were fueled by their dislike of how useless and annoying FPP is. 

Gareth, on the other foot (ba-dum-dum), was a man after their own stomachs. Game recognize game.

Edited December 1, 2014 by morgankobi

[kikismom]

It made no sense that the zombies in the school couldn't break out when the Termites and Bob were sitting right there with a fire burning but they could get out to go after Gabriel.

 

 

They were fueled by their dislike of how useless and annoying FPP is. 

Gareth, on the other foot (ba-dum-dum), was a man after their own stomachs. Game recognize game.

Gareth, having once seen Midnight Express, knew how to calm them.

He would splay his hand on the glass that separated them, then unbutton his shirt and press his moobs to the glass.

Gareth watched a lot of Turkish prison movies.

[kj4ever]

 

I did laugh when Rick ran over Cop Bob. Yet another person who refuses to listen to his plans. Must have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

Can he run over Tyreese next???  You know now that he did the big reveal that he knew Martin was alive, he is responsible for TWO of their people dying.  I'm betting that Martin followed them and listened to them after they left that cabin.  I always thought that was how the Termites knew the grey-haired bitch killed Mary.  By letting him live the Termites were able to not only know their location, but hunt down Bob, eat part of him, and dump him in the yard.

 

Now Tyreese and his pacifist ways have killed Beth.  Can the others not see this??  Although the coward that he is he didn't tell the rest of the group that he lied about Martin being dead...

And the same story could have been told, but better, if they even thought about what "wards" might be useful for. Like with Beth, she suddenly had medical training from her online ZA degree, but Noah? A guy who folds laundry well isn't worth an extensive manhunt. Couldn't they have made him, say, the tech guy, who keeps the hospital machinery repaired? Or an electrician? Or a plumber? Or even an air conditioning repairman? 

 

I bet she learned a lot from her Dad.  She was in that prison in a relatively peaceful environment for quite awhile.  Good old Hersch would make sure he passed on his knowledge.

Scott Gimple needs to be writer more and showrunner less. He's responsible for the most well-written episodes, but he can't teach it to the other writers.

I think for Morales you meant to say Martinez.

 

Here's the thing--(IMO)--it wasn't just the peace and safety of the farm or prison.

Those were the seasons when each exchange between the characters of "our group" was important!! There was interpersonal conflict, and interpersonal connections constantly in flux. You didn't want to miss a moment.

Now? Now it's assumed they are all straightened out with each other, and if they aren't, someone just gives in. Glenn and Maggie will just go with Abe. Rick will just defer to Tyreese and Daryl.

What happened to gossipy nosy curious Glenn? What happened to telling on people? We have Tyreese confess...but we won't tell. Hey on the farm that would have been a wild episode. We know about what Carol did (besides Karvid, I mean about Lizzie/Mika). But don't tell. I wish Shane and Dale were around to hear that one. Just imagine Lori and Andrea putting their two cents in.

Oh my Lord I couldn't stand Lori or Andrea but I can just picture that scene and it would have been brilliant!

[kikismom]

Anybody know what's going on with Bear Mcreary and how his taste in music went to hell? Where are all the good songs?

[Pete Martell]

The Vatos and the Claim Gang (or is that the Merry Band of Rapists?), and even Morgan and Duane wholeheartedly agree with you. I believe Hershel put it best when he said that CDB was like a plague back on the farm.

 

Rick did nothing to Morgan and Duane. He stayed with them briefly, gave them guns, and left. Morgan is the one who caused all of his own pain and his son's death, which is why he snapped. 

 

Rick's group also did nothing to the Vatos group. They were killed (if we believe the deleted scenes) by another gang. 

 

Frankly, they probably helped the hospital group. Beth killed several rapist pigs, and Daryl finished off Dawn. If they don't recover or improve that's their own fault at this point. 

 

I do agree that they tend to bring a lot of destruction and I wish that was acknowledged by the people of Georgia when Rick and gang meet them, but in cases like Grady, they mostly did them a favor.

[Raven1707]

I doubt if I'll catch up with the thread any time soon, but here are the ratings for Episodes 501-508:

 

10-12-14 “No Sanctuary” 17.3 million
10-19-14 “Strangers” 15.143 million
10-26-14 “Four Walls and a Roof” 13.801 million
11-02-14 “Slabtown” 14.518 million
11-09-14 “Self Help” 13.534 million
11-16-14 “Consumed” 14.068 million
11-23-14 “Crossed” 13.329 million
11-30-14 “Coda” 14.8 million

[kikismom]

Rick did nothing to Morgan and Duane.

&etc.

The running joke is not that Rick personally, directly did something bad to them. It's that they were all managing okay, they meet Rick, the Norse God Loki puts

them on his shitlist.

Vatos were doing good.

But so were the fruit people, even 2 hippiedippy moronic sweeties were alive this far into the ZA...but The Human Lightning Rod crossed the threshold and they were marked for death.

Orange Backpack Guy had somehow survived so long...so long as he wasn't in Rick's vicinity---- annnnnnd he's dead.

That's the real reason they never meet any good groups. They are out there, hiding and hoping CDB goes by and keeps going, like that scene in The Ten Commandments where everybody paints a cross mark in goats blood on their door and stays inside...the wailing you hear is the sucker who let them come to the farm/church/old folks home.

 

I have to agree with RosieJuliemom and morgankobi, there should be songs and perhaps a spin-off show, The Walking Dead From The Point Of View Of The Poor Suckers Trusting These People. The first episode would be the 14 people who died at the quarry in a walker over-run because Rick had to go back to get Merle because Rick had to chain Merle to a roof pipe in the first place and not keep the key, either.

[morgankobi]

Thanks, kikismom, that's what I was trying to get at. I just wasn't tongue-in-cheek enough :)

 

Rick Grimes: Harbinger of Death and Chaos, Bringer of Lice...

[Pete Martell]

Scott Gimple needs to be writer more and showrunner less. He's responsible for the most well-written episodes, but he can't teach it to the other writers.

I think for Morales you meant to say Martinez.

 

Here's the thing--(IMO)--it wasn't just the peace and safety of the farm or prison.

Those were the seasons when each exchange between the characters of "our group" was important!! There was interpersonal conflict, and interpersonal connections constantly in flux. You didn't want to miss a moment.

 

Now? Now it's assumed they are all straightened out with each other, and if they aren't, someone just gives in. Glenn and Maggie will just go with Abe. Rick will just defer to Tyreese and Daryl.

 

What happened to gossipy nosy curious Glenn? What happened to telling on people? We have Tyreese confess...but we won't tell. Hey on the farm that would have been a wild episode. We know about what Carol did (besides Karvid, I mean about Lizzie/Mika). But don't tell. I wish Shane and Dale were around to hear that one. Just imagine Lori and Andrea putting their two cents in.

 

I think the show would be vastly more interesting if they stopped being so entirely concerned with temp guest stars and guest villains and turned the conversations/conflicts inward a lot more.

 

You can still fight Termites; do you have to obsess about their motives? I'd rather have a scene of Carl confront his Dad about Michonne--do you have intentions old man or what? Make a move or step aside. Glenn and Rosita?  How about Daryl or someone just lose it and get some serious shit worked out with bossy Abraham?

 

Every day in the farm or prison there was a changing scorecard on who was pissed, who was bonding, who was losing their marbles, what one said to another. Now it's like, i'm okay with either way, me too, what she said, ditto.

 

You have much fonder memories of the writing for the group during the farm and the prison (especially the prison) than I do.

 

Overall I thought the farm had strong character interaction, but there were too many pointless secrets, too much gossipy writing. There was no real reason to have Glenn involved in Lori's pregnancy reveal. It made it look like she saw Glenn as a servant. The only scene I remember fondly in this arc (Dale counseling Lori to keep the baby) could have happened without any secrets. The show had a way of making serious concerns seem catty or juvenile when women were involved. Beth's suicide attempt and Lori and Andrea having differing views turned into a passive-aggressive hissfest over a woman's duty. I shudder to think how they would have had Lori or Andrea react to what happened with Carol and Lizzie/Mika.

 

I remember being disappointed at just how LITTLE interaction there was at the prison, especially in the second half of season 3, where the show substituted a lot of holding guns and staring pensively in the prison yard for storytelling. Maggie delivered Judith and was sexually assaulted because she and Glenn went to get formula for Judith, and yet she barely had any real interaction with the Grimes family for the rest of the season. Glenn had a poorly-executed PTSD/anger management storyline in lieu of maintaining his relationships with most of the group - they've never recovered. Other than a few bits here and there, I felt like the show mostly just cared about select bonds (Carol/Daryl, Rick/Hershel, Maggie/Glenn, Hershel/Glenn/Maggie).

 

Only in season 4 did I feel like they were finally attempting to strengthen relationships in the prison (I remember being shocked when Maggie and Rick had extended conversations) - which of course was just to tear the place down, sadly.

 

I would like to see more interpersonal relationships too. I hate that we've lost some of this because the group is so often split up, but then I wonder how much of it we ever had in the first place. I just think it depends on the characterization and meaning. I don't believe Carl would ever ask Rick about his intentions regarding Michonne. Rick has no intentions, as far as we know. Carl's relationship with Michonne is very separate to anything with Rick and I think it would take a lot for him to believe his father has any interest in her. I do agree that more should happen to help characters get to know each other - that's one of the reasons I loved the fist bump between Tara and Rick. Or even scenes like Rosita restraining Sasha from physically attacking Gabriel. 

 

One of the main problems in earlier seasons and now is that the show, like a lot of fiction, assumes more interaction has to mean brawling and dick-waving. That's the biggest reason I absolutely dreaded Rick and Abraham meeting, that's why I rolled my eyes when Rick and Tyreese got violent last season, etc. Or Daryl practically making out with Bob after Bob stole the liquor. The show just isn't good at this. The machismo-off with The Governor and Rick was another I didn't want to see. 

 

I also think sometimes secrets should stay secret. That's more true to life, and shows the inner lives of characters. We see the burdens of these secrets. I'm glad they didn't have Carol talk about Mika and Lizzie (until she's ready), because it's private and personal. Stuff like Tyreese and Martin is another story, as it does directly impact the group, but I don't really understand anything about the writing here anyway. 

 

Now they have another chance to have the group together and show the dynamics. We'll see if they take it.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

&etc.

The running joke is not that Rick personally, directly did something bad to them. It's that they were all managing okay, they meet Rick, the Norse God Loki puts

them on his shitlist.

 

Sorry.

 

I see the joke now, although in cases like the hospital I'd still say they mostly did the place a favor.

[morgankobi]

The hospital seems to be in a never-ending cycle with its leaders, but it will probably all go to hell off-camera, like the Vatos!

[Ohwell]

So Beth got shot.  THAT'S IT??

[kikismom]

 

 

Burn!

[Ellaria]

Don't know if anyone on the West Coast saw this post prior to watching the episode. Apparently, the TWD Facebook page posted a spoiler...

 

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/01/the-walking-dead-facebook-page-posts-spoiler-before-finale/

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[TVFan17]

Don't know if anyone on the West Coast saw this post prior to watching the episode. Apparently, the TWD Facebook page posted a spoiler...

 

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/01/the-walking-dead-facebook-page-posts-spoiler-before-finale/

 

I saw it right as Facebook posted it, then noticed that it was taken down not too long after that (it stayed up for a while, though) -- but, then again, I seek out spoilers so it didn't spoil anything for me, personally.  Others who don't want spoilers, however, would have seen the big picture of Daryl carrying out lifeless Beth with "RIP Beth" above it.

 

It was a blunder on Facebook's part, of course, to not wait a few hours before posting -- but I really think that people should stay off of the Facebook Walking Dead page while an episode is airing if they don't want to know what happens.  People watching it live will comment on the page in the excitement of the moment, and that is to be expected.

[kikismom]

 

People watching it live will comment on the page in the excitement of the moment, and that is to be expected.

I agree that people who don't want to be spoiled should stay off the internet but I think the problem in this case was that it was an AMC exec who posted it on the site.

NR got in trouble once when he tweeted and spoiled Shane's death.

[Ellaria]

I saw it right as Facebook posted it, then noticed that it was taken down not too long after that (it stayed up for a while, though) -- but, then again, I seek out spoilers so it didn't spoil anything for me, personally.  Others who don't want spoilers, however, would have seen the big picture of Daryl carrying out lifeless Beth with "RIP Beth" above it.

 

It was a blunder on Facebook's part, of course, to not wait a few hours before posting -- but I really think that people should stay off of the Facebook Walking Dead page while an episode is airing if they don't want to know what happens.  People watching it live will comment on the page in the excitement of the moment, and that is to be expected.

 

I agree with staying off social media until you have seen the episode. One way or another, you will get spoiled, if not by blunders by AMC then by other posters. AMC has slipped up before. I think - and I may not be remembering this correctly - they mentioned Shane's death in promo copy for the S2 DVDs...before his death episode aired.

 

Regardless, these social media posts are usually done in advance. I think they need another set of eyes before these posts are scheduled.

[dohe]

I'm sad to see Beth go. I mostly enjoy this show but I feel like I must be way outside of the core demo as it keeps killing off the characters I like and relate to (Lori, Andrea and now Beth). I know most people hated Beth's episode with Daryl last season, but I thought her character offered something different to the show and the memory of those two connecting stuck with me afterwards. Good fiction is about contrasts and they had it in spades. She was the only innocent thing left on this show, the only thing that hadn't been mowed down by the "butcher or be the butchered" mantra this show has been going with lately. 

 

There's a quote by this year's Man Booker prize winner Richard Flanagan that I appreciate and summarizes my feelings about this really well -  "I think if people are presented with a picture of only darkness they revolt against it because they know, fundamentally, that it’s untrue to their experience of life, which is to hope."

 

I've stopped watching Game of Thrones as of last season because it is failing to deliver that light and shade. I hope the TWD doesn't go there too. There is a tendency for shows like this to veer towards torture porn, where young women (and black people!) are treated very badly. I think teenage males get off on it. But just to let you know TWD, you have female fans too, so next time how about you kill off someone darker and tougher like Carl, Daryl, Michonne, or Carol to even up the ledger. The last time we had that would have been Shane, I think? I don't count non-sympathetic baddies like the Governor. 

Well said post.  What is interesting, on my facebook, is seeing how deeply affected and bothered people are by this in a way no other death on the show has come close to.  I think that, to a great deal, was because Beth came the closest to someone whose reaction seemed more based in reality than in video games or being ultra-cool.  Beth really seemed the closest to a relatable truth. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by dohe

[Kadlin Mormont]

 

The running joke is not that Rick personally, directly did something bad to them. It's that they were all managing okay, they meet Rick, the Norse God Loki puts

them on his shitlist.

Vatos were doing good.

But so were the fruit people, even 2 hippiedippy moronic sweeties were alive this far into the ZA...but The Human Lightning Rod crossed the threshold and they were marked for death.

Orange Backpack Guy had somehow survived so long...so long as he wasn't in Rick's vicinity---- annnnnnd he's dead.

That's the real reason they never meet any good groups. They are out there, hiding and hoping CDB goes by and keeps going

 

Rick is like the Jessica Fletcher of the zombie apocalypse.  People who are acquainted with Fletcher end up dead.  People who end up in Rick's orbit end up dead or their camps blown to hell. 

 

I understand bringing Noah with them for the hostage exchange.  Rick knew Dawn's position was precarious and if they needed cooperation from the wards and the good cops, them seeing Noah being treated well and not held prisoner by Rick's group would have helped. 

 

Stupid Beth.  If only she had waited.  If she needed to make a speech she could have turned to the other cops and wards and asked them if they wanted Dawn to continue to hold them hostage or if they wanted to do something to make their lives better by deposing Dawn.  In that scene Beth was the first one to physically attack, had Dawn shot her on purpose she would have been almost justified since it could have been self defense. 

[mandolin]

I saw that fb post at, oh, 10:02. I don't watch until Monday. I was pissed, as I imagine West Coasters were. I do avoid twitter and instagram (and this page!) until I view it, but I will scan through fb, and I "like" Walking Dead there. That photo was obvious even in a quick scan through my feed.

 

I've been surprised by how fb friends have been saddened by Beth's death. 

[maplebrew]

Somebody wash Rick! I could smell him though the TV. Rick hitting Bob2 and then shooting him seemed like a Shane thing to do. Rick found it necessary to hit Bob2 and probably thought it practical/merciful to shoot him.

 

While it might not have been a good idea, Rick should have given at least some consideration to taking over the hospital. Since everyone is reunited, it was worth thinking about staying put and enjoying the beds, food, medicine and light. 

 

Meanwhile, poor Sasha and Tyreese. They are good people who ethically struggle in this world. Wonder if Sasha is going to abandon that like she says. I have my doubts but as the song goes, 'all in all it's just another brick in the wall.'

[Mu Shu]

Now wait a minute-Weren't there like supposed to be 800 walkers in this episode?    Did I dream that?

 

Dawn is the worst villain ever.   Gareth would have had her processed into people jerky by the second half of the episode.   

 

Rick hitting BadBob was unintentionally hilarious.    STOP!  

[Pixel]

Dawn deserved to die just for working out on a recumbent bike in a ZA where calories are scarce. Really? Working out?  I would think just surviving is workout enough at this point.

[TVFan17]

I agree that people who don't want to be spoiled should stay off the internet but I think the problem in this case was that it was an AMC exec who posted it on the site.

NR got in trouble once when he tweeted and spoiled Shane's death.

 

 

I agree with staying off social media until you have seen the episode. One way or another, you will get spoiled, if not by blunders by AMC then by other posters. AMC has slipped up before. I think - and I may not be remembering this correctly - they mentioned Shane's death in promo copy for the S2 DVDs...before his death episode aired.

 

Regardless, these social media posts are usually done in advance. I think they need another set of eyes before these posts are scheduled.

 

Yes -- it was AMC's blunder.  I don't know why I said Facebook posted it (I am very tired and have been watching one too many Christmas movies -- and can't think straight anymore! Lol.  Visions of sugar plums are dancing in my head!).  It was obviously AMC that goofed and put the big "RIP Beth" post and photo on the Walking Dead page before the West Coast got to see the episode.  I can see how it would pop up in the News Feeds of many folks, even if they were avoiding the actual Walking Dead page itself.  I saw it because I was actually on the Walking Dead page, looking for recaps and commentary, so I didn't see it on my News Feed.

 

I definitely think it's wise to stay off of social media when an episode is airing in another time zone -- because, if the AMC or TWD folks don't accidentally post something and blow the surprise (as they did last night), the people commenting on the posts -- posts which could pop up on individual News Feeds -- will most certainly be giving their armchair critiques and reactions as events unfold.  And if they don't comment, then you can bet that one of your friends in another time zone will take to Facebook or Twitter and post "OMG!  I can't believe Beth got shot in the head!!"

[ghoulina]

There was an unexpected laugh when we saw the cluster of menacing dark-uniformed cops standing in the hospital corridor, one of whom appeared to be about four feet tall. "What doesn't belong in this picture?"

 

So glad I'm not the only one. I actually turned to my husband and asked if that cop was a little person.

 

And after escaping, Michonne, Carl and Gabriel just hang out front, in full view of the walkers, thus further agitating them. Because of course they couldn't even temporarily leave the area - or go to the now abandoned school! - because they had to be there to welcome back the conveniently time Washinton crew. Ugh.

 

Gawd, that entire thing from start to finish was just one big, idiotic cluster fuck. First, FPP runs BACK to the church, where a little baby is being kept, with a massive group of walkers following him. Brilliant. Then Michonne and Carl break down the door to let his sorry ass back in, and....they just stand there? And let the walkers come in? It seriously looked like they could have got FPP in, slammed the door back, and been done with it. Maybe one or two might have been in the way. But no....the entire gale just sweeps in because everyone is standing around like they're waiting for the bus. It was so contrived and unbelievable. So then they rush off to the office, and thank God FPP had already removed part of the floor. So they run around out front and then trap the walkers in the church....for what purpose exactly? To stand there and watch the display of living art? I thought I even heard Michonne say something about how they were NOT going "to run". Ummm, okay....why? I was expecting her to have some big, brilliant plan to deal with the walkers and get the church back. But no, they just weren't going to run because GREATM was going to be by any minute. DUH.

 

He was on a show called "Jerico" and was absolutely fantastic.  I know that's why I'm so excited every time he comes on the show. He can act every single actor currently on the show under the table.

 

I've never seen Lennie James in anything other than TWD, but I agree that his acting is astounding. I gave quite a lengthy post on one of the earlier pages as to why I love Morgan so much, but I must say that he gave more in those two episodes that he was featured in than some actors who were on the show several seasons did.

[AngelaHunter]

To avoid spoilers, you almost have to stay off your computer. They're everywhere! I mostly, but not quite, managed to avoid them until an hour ago.

 

Well, that was tense. Rick is just as ruthless as the Governor now. I did enjoy seeing him run NewBob down and then shoot him, but I what suprised me most was his utter and total I-don't-give-fuck "Shut up." after he, well, shut that bitch up permanently.

 

So, nice going Tyreese and Daryl with your little hostage plan. As the unbearable Dr. Phil would say, "How did that work out for ya?" If they haven't gotten the message that they need to listen to Rick and do whatever that motherfucker says, they all deserve to die.

 

Maybe he'll shoot FPP too after he finds out how he nearly got his children killed with his stupid, ridiculous peepants ways. One can hope..

 

"Dear FatherPissyPants,

 

Thank you for all your help! You are truly a godsend.

 

Love and hugs,

Carl, Michonne and Judith"

 

May I say I cried when Beth died without being pelted with rotten tomatoes? I just don't understand why she bothered to risk her life to  give Dawn a non-fatal stab.

 

 

[NoWillToResist]

Gawd, that entire thing from start to finish was just one big, idiotic cluster fuck. First, FPP runs BACK to the church, where a little baby is being kept, with a massive group of walkers following him. Brilliant. Then Michonne and Carl break down the door to let his sorry ass back in, and....they just stand there? And let the walkers come in? It seriously looked like they could have got FPP in, slammed the door back, and been done with it. Maybe one or two might have been in the way. But no....the entire gale just sweeps in because everyone is standing around like they're waiting for the bus. It was so contrived and unbelievable. So then they rush off to the office, and thank God FPP had already removed part of the floor. So they run around out front and then trap the walkers in the church....for what purpose exactly? To stand there and watch the display of living art? I thought I even heard Michonne say something about how they were NOT going "to run". Ummm, okay....why? I was expecting her to have some big, brilliant plan to deal with the walkers and get the church back. But no, they just weren't going to run because GREATM was going to be by any minute. DUH.

 

I honestly thought she was going to burn the church to the ground with all the walkers in it. That would have worked. But "where do we go"? Uh, there's actually a really good place to go. It's called a school, Gabriel was just there, and he oh-so-conveniently just emptied it of walkers. Scribble a note in the dirt outside the charred remains of the church:

 

"Rick: idiot preacher rained walkers down on the church. We burned it. We were merciful and didn't stuff Gabriel inside with them. We're at the school. - love: Michonne, the kids and the dipshit preacher."

Edited December 2, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Mu Shu]

To avoid spoilers, you almost have to stay off your computer. They're everywhere! I mostly, but not quite, managed to avoid them until an hour ago.

 

Well, that was tense. Rick is just as ruthless as the Governor now. I did enjoy seeing him run NewBob down and then shoot him, but I what suprised me most was his utter and total I-don't-give-fuck "Shut up." after he, well, shut that bitch up permanently.

 

So, nice going Tyreese and Daryl with your little hostage plan. As the unbearable Dr. Phil would say, "How did that work out for ya?" If they haven't gotten the message that they need to listen to Rick and do whatever that motherfucker says, they all deserve to die.

 

Maybe he'll shoot FPP too after he finds out how he nearly got his children killed with his stupid, ridiculous peepants ways. One can hope..

 

"Dear FatherPissyPants,

 

Thank you for all your help! You are truly a godsend.

 

Love and hugs,

Carl, Michonne and Judith"

 

May I say I cried when Beth died without being pelted with rotten tomatoes? I just don't understand why she bothered to risk her life to  give Dawn a non-fatal stab.

Stupid, ridiculous, peepants ways.    Please put that on a T shirt. 

[Ellaria]

Morgan is about two weeks behind Rick & Company? Four weeks? Any guesses as to the purpose of bringing him back into the story at this point?

I really hope that Rick and Daryl come upon a stash of soap, deodorant, a razor and a comb along with a walker-free lake. They need to bathe...the hell with realism. Hygiene concerns are overtaking their "hotness."

[AngelaHunter]

Glenn and Maggie are boring, Tara is silly, I love Rosita, and Abraham is stupid. I still miss Merle.

 

Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. I still say Merle was the most interesting and complicated character on this show to date. He was riveting every time he appeared on screen. Thinking of him makes me even more confused as I watched tonight and sat thinking, "Why am I watching pointless, redundant FPP wasting time and running hither and yon on my screen? Why, oh why??"

 

Who thought Dawn was going to push Beth down the elevator shaft? *raises hand*

 

Stupid, ridiculous, peepants ways.    Please put that on a T shirt.

 

 

Arrgghhh! Now I'm going to have to do it, even if only virtually.:(

[Pete Martell]

Gawd, that entire thing from start to finish was just one big, idiotic cluster fuck. First, FPP runs BACK to the church, where a little baby is being kept, with a massive group of walkers following him. Brilliant. Then Michonne and Carl break down the door to let his sorry ass back in, and....they just stand there? And let the walkers come in? It seriously looked like they could have got FPP in, slammed the door back, and been done with it. Maybe one or two might have been in the way. But no....the entire gale just sweeps in because everyone is standing around like they're waiting for the bus. It was so contrived and unbelievable. So then they rush off to the office, and thank God FPP had already removed part of the floor. So they run around out front and then trap the walkers in the church....for what purpose exactly? To stand there and watch the display of living art? I thought I even heard Michonne say something about how they were NOT going "to run". Ummm, okay....why? I was expecting her to have some big, brilliant plan to deal with the walkers and get the church back. But no, they just weren't going to run because GREATM was going to be by any minute. DUH.

 

I could see why they didn't close the doors back up, as the walkers were probably going to get in anyway and they had a clearer shot at killing as many as they could or whatever, but I didn't understand why they stood around the church waiting for the walkers to come out. And then of course I realized the reason was so the truck could barrel in. 

 

These last few episodes have had a lot of scenes where characters have to behave in a ridiculous way in order to keep the plot going, or for suspense, or what have you. This is not a brilliantly written show, but they can do better than this. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by Pete Martell

[deedee]

All I can say is Father PP is lucky Rick wasn't inside the church when he brought his dumb ass back to the church. I have to admit I was yelling at the screen for Michonne and Carl to let him get eaten. Have they learned nothing from Rick?

 

I think Emily K is a weak actress and I didn't really care that her character died, but I did tear up while watching her get weepy on TD.

I also would rather Beth stayed and either the useless priest or Tyrese bit it.

 

[Pete Martell]

Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. I still say Merle was the most interesting and complicated character on this show to date. He was riveting every time he appeared on screen. Thinking of him makes me even more confused as I watched tonight and sat thinking, "Why am I watching pointless, redundant FPP wasting time and running hither and yon on my screen? Why, oh why??"

 

Who thought Dawn was going to push Beth down the elevator shaft? *raises hand*

 

Merle's one of those characters I thought worked in small doses, but who annoyed me when he was onscreen too often (like all the hanging around at the prison, or the repetition at Woodbury). He's also one of those characters whose racism and misogyny got a big pass from viewers because he was "funny," and on a show which has had so many problems with racist and misogynist writing, that always made me nervous. Frankly, I also wasn't all that interested in his relationship with Daryl. The only time I cared was in "Chupacabra," by far the best Daryl episode.

 

I wouldn't have minded him leaving again and popping up, like Morgan, but he had a really awesome death, probably the best ever on the show.

 

I thought Beth and Dawn were both going to go down the elevator shaft. I think I would have preferred that ending.

All I can say is Father PP is lucky Rick wasn't inside the church when he brought his dumb ass back to the church. I have to admit I was yelling at the screen for Michonne and Carl to let him get eaten. Have they learned nothing from Rick?

 

Michonne and Carl both have an unbelievable amount of faith in Gabriel. Carl has from the start, and Michonne also seems to trust him. Truth be told I think they're the only two who give a damn about him. I really hope he pays them back in kind. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by Pete Martell

[EyesGlazed]

Besides, staying in a hospital in the middle of walker-infested city is a death sentence. 

 

No it's not.  The hospital cops were living just fine, eating well, sleeping in beds, using their recumbent bikes (!!!) and traveling freely in and out and around the city in their fleet of cars.  The Ricktatorship should have moved right on in.  They would quickly have cured any remaining bad cops of their bad habits.  ("Stop!"  "You won't stop?"  BLAM.  "Shut up".)

 

If I were Rick Grimes, I would have taken over the hospital. Commandeered a floor or something. Why leave that? You have electricity and laundry facilities and a rooftop garden and a DOCTOR and you turn that down? Jesus fuck, WHY? Send the bad cops down the elevator shaft and start over! It seems as good an offer as any in this world. Certainly much better than everyone living on a busted fire truck, which is all they have now (THANKS AGAIN, FATHER PP).

 

Exactly.  Too bad, as other posters have pointed out, that that plot development wouldn't suit Kirkman's taste for nihilism and debauchery on the road.

What is interesting, on my facebook, is seeing how deeply affected and bothered people are by this in a way no other death on the show has come close to.  I think that, to a great deal, was because Beth came the closest to someone whose reaction seemed more based in reality than in video games or being ultra-cool.  Beth really seemed the closest to a relatable truth. 

I agree with this too.  Beth wasn't a superhero or a badass or particularly smart or cunning.  She was just a normal young woman coping with the new horrible reality.  In fact, when she exceeded her skill set (stabbing armed police officer with teeny scissors in fit of anger) she got killed.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by EyesGlazed

[RedheadZombie]

Judith was adorable how she was sound asleep strapped to Carl's back outside the church. That baby really can sleep through the zombie apocalypse. 

 

That baby (or babies) is very low energy.  There's a scene after the break where Rick is carrying her in front of him, and again she's slumped over his arm sleeping.  I just keep thinking - please tell me that people put sunscreen on these little baby actors.  The sun is intense here.

 

The whole time Dawn was sitting on Carol's bed blathering on, and the shot was wide enough to show the whole bed, I was just WAITING for Carol to sit up and grab her.

 

In the live post thread, someone hilariously commented that Carol was the strongest actor in that scene - unconscious.

 

I couldn't help contrast this with the respectable impact made by the actors who played Martin, Mary, even the bat and butcher knife team...they only had a few minutes but were real, believable, and affecting. The Grady cops have had big screen time for several episodes and all put together didn't have any memorable charisma.

 

Sometimes they really cast amazing people in these smaller roles.  Dave and/or Tony, Gareth, Cop "Bob", Milton, Martinez, the leader of the prison group - all did great things with minimal time.  Then we get people like Dawn.  I don't understand the inconsistency. 

 

If they draw out the Morgan thing much longer, suspense will turn to irritation.  Did they have filming conflicts so they had to insert him in like this?  Does he even get paid for all this non-verbal work?

[Pete Martell]

Exactly.  Too bad, as other posters have pointed out, that that plot development wouldn't suit Kirkman's taste for nihilism and debauchery on the road.

 

I don't think it's just Kirkman. They'd have to do a lot more filming in Atlanta, which is probably a headache. I'm also not sure most of the characters would want to stay there. It would remind them of Beth. And if Beth had lived, she would never want to stay there. 

[AngelaHunter]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but at the opening - Rick running past the walker and just casually disembowelling it? He did that purely for the fun of it, and probably chuckling to himself as he ran on.

[kikismom]

I really hope that Rick and Daryl come upon a stash of soap, deodorant, a razor and a comb along with a walker-free lake. They need to bathe...the hell with realism. Hygiene concerns are overtaking their "hotness."

[Pete Martell]

Sometimes they really cast amazing people in these smaller roles.  Dave and/or Tony, Gareth, Cop "Bob", Milton, Martinez, the leader of the prison group - all did great things with minimal time.  Then we get people like Dawn.  I don't understand the inconsistency. 

 

If they draw out the Morgan thing much longer, suspense will turn to irritation.  Did they have filming conflicts so they had to insert him in like this?  Does he even get paid for all this non-verbal work?

 

I think they're timing the Morgan scenes just right. We know enough to know he's coming, but we don't know when, or how he'll be when he gets there. 

 

I've heard people say Christine Woods is a great actress and she was the best part of "Hello Ladies." I can't say she did much for me here. On Talking Dead and in interviews they kept saying she played Dawn as if Dawn was a hero. Maybe that was part of the problem. I think the show didn't know whether Dawn was supposed to be weak or strong. Maybe she was supposed to be both. I can appreciate ambiguity, but there was a little too much ambiguity, and telling instead of showing, here. Too much time spent on talking about "good" and "bad" cops, and talking about Dawn, and Dawn talking. 

 

They should have had a flashback where she killed Hansen because Hansen was going to take on all the bad cops and she believed that would just lead to the death of everything they'd built. And flashbacks of her being sexually harassed and intimidated by the men. I think that would have gone a long way.

[RedheadZombie]

I officially hate Tyrese and would rather he had died.  So much has happened, so many people have died because of him.  Thanks to his 1) inability to kill a bad guy who threatens a baby and 2) lacking the balls to own up to this inability, said bad guy was able to alert his friends (who didn't previously know about the baby) who walked in the church and called her out by name.  Unforgivable.  He then talked Rick and Co out of Rick's original plan, which would have killed ALL the cops and saved ALL the wards, in favor of an always messy kidnapping/trade plot that only ended up in MORE death.  I hate him, I don't care what they do with his character, he's unredeemable to me and needs to go.

 

I guess I'm unsure of who Tyreese got killed.  Who are the "so many people", Bob?  No, FPP is the reason Bob was bitten.  Gareth was the leader of the cannibals, and the one who relished telling Bob that they were eating his leg.  Martin did partake in the meal, but that would have happened without Martin.  Did Tyreese brag to Martin that Bob was particularly tasty?   Gareth is the reason the group was attacked - they killed his mother.  Knowing Judith's name did nothing but give the viewers a nice little chill.  It did not endanger the baby.  In fact, the baby would have been dead if not for him, and then Carol.  The people truly responsible for the attack on the church, is everyone who fought going back and killing all the termites.  Rick is the one who backed down on his plan - both times.  Rick is my favorite, but he's not infallible. 

 

I don't understand how Rick's plan was brilliant.  How in the world do you know that all the bad guys would have died, and the good guys would have lived?  Most likely, a lot of the wards and rape slaves would have been killed in the crossfire, and who knows how many of Rick's gang. In Tyreese's plan, only one person died - Beth.  And she died because of - Beth.

 

I understand the criticism for his "weakness' and gentle nature, it's similar to why Beth is criticized.  I just don't find him responsible for all that's gone wrong.  It's like he's the new Lori and Andrea.

 

What exactly did Beth "get" at the last moment? If she didn't know enough about Dawn before this prisoner exchange, like she helped Dawn push the cop down the elevator shaft and Dawn already slapped her around enough...why she gotta have an epiphany and attempt a really, really lame brave move? At least she coulda killed Dawn  I actually shouted at my television "push HER down the elevator shaft" and at that moment I didn't care if it was Dawn or Beth was the pusher or pushee. 

 

I still don't quite get that scene.  It was triggered by Dawn telling Noah that she knew he would come back.  That's when Beth gave her the devil glare.

[Iguessnot]

My take is that Dawn was telling this out of the blue tale about how her ex partner was a good cop and then went bad and how Dawn had to put him down was supposed to parallel Beth having to put down Dawn because she was a formerly good cop who had now become bad. In essence Beth saying she knew what she had to do was her believing it was her turn to put the bad person down.

So you don't have a clue either as to what exactly happened with the good cops/bad cops story, except there were good cops/bad cops and Hansen had to go down :)

[GreyBunny]

 On Talking Dead and in interviews they kept saying she played Dawn as if Dawn was a hero. Maybe that was part of the problem.

 

The most effective villains are the ones who think they're the heroes of their own stories.  Unfortunately it didn't work for this character with this actress.  I thought the entire hospital storyline was a ridiculous clusterfuck and should have been scrapped, or at least written better.  Dawn wasn't scary, she was annoying.  She and Officer Rapey and the rest of her merry band of rape-cops could have been taken out easily enough. They were surrounded by sharp implements and heavy equipment, beaning one over the head or stabbing one in the eye wouldn't have taken much and they had the elevator shaft to drag them to and chuck them into.  But I guess that's why they killed off the "strong ones" leaving the Stockholms alive to do what she wanted without putting up a fight.       

 

 

I think they're timing the Morgan scenes just right. We know enough to know he's coming, but we don't know when, or how he'll be when he gets there.

 

Agree.  We've had two small teasers to remind us that he's there and he's on his way and we don't need much more (maybe one more teaser) before he finds Rick and his group.  They're using Lennie James perfectly, I think.  

Edited December 2, 2014 by GreyBunny

[AngelaHunter]

I've heard people say Christine Woods is a great actress and she was the best part of "Hello Ladies." I can't say she did much for me here.

 

I never heard of her before this show, but to me she was wooden in the extreme and it appeared as though all her lines were news to her and she was reading them from Post-Its tacked all over the place. Her constant monotonal speeches were just annoying and boring to me.

 

I officially hate Tyrese and would rather he had died.

 

 

You are not alone. Warranted or not, he just rubs me the wrong way to the point where I can hardly stand to look at him.

[nodorothyparker]

I guess I'm unsure of who Tyreese got killed.  Who are the "so many people", Bob?  No, FPP is the reason Bob was bitten.  Gareth was the leader of the cannibals, and the one who relished telling Bob that they were eating his leg.  Martin did partake in the meal, but that would have happened without Martin.  Did Tyreese brag to Martin that Bob was particularly tasty?   Gareth is the reason the group was attacked - they killed his mother.  Knowing Judith's name did nothing but give the viewers a nice little chill.  It did not endanger the baby.  In fact, the baby would have been dead if not for him, and then Carol.  The people truly responsible for the attack on the church, is everyone who fought going back and killing all the termites.  Rick is the one who backed down on his plan - both times.  Rick is my favorite, but he's not infallible. 

 

I don't understand how Rick's plan was brilliant.  How in the world do you know that all the bad guys would have died, and the good guys would have lived?  Most likely, a lot of the wards and rape slaves would have been killed in the crossfire, and who knows how many of Rick's gang. In Tyreese's plan, only one person died - Beth.  And she died because of - Beth.

 

I understand the criticism for his "weakness' and gentle nature, it's similar to why Beth is criticized.  I just don't find him responsible for all that's gone wrong.  It's like he's the new Lori and Andrea.

 

All of this.

Look, I get it.  Tyreese is working my last nerve right now too.  I wouldn't mind his passivism that much if they were still back at the prison or some other place of relative safety.  It'd just be a character quirk and a mental note that he really doesn't have any business going on runs or doing anything where anyone else might be dependent on him for safety.  But that's not the group's situation right now.  They're out in the open.  They're regularly facing down people who want to kill them.  They need to be able to count on him to pull the trigger or pick up the hammer and have their backs.  And he's basically just admitted that he won't do it, that he didn't do it even when that person was ready to snap a baby's neck.  Right now he's dangerous because he's a liability and what's worse, the group doesn't know that which hopefully won't get any of them killed.

 

All that said, none of that makes him responsible for what happened to Bob.  The Termites would have come after them with or without Martin because members of our gang didn't think it important to finish the job.  His plan had nothing to do with what happened to Beth either.  His plan actually worked.  They were free and clear and ready to walk out the door with no casualties save Bob 2.0 when Beth decided to go after Dawn.  Beth got Beth killed.

Edited December 2, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[queenanne]

Lot of stuff to catch up on!  Forgive me if I appropriated your general thoughts below without your direct quote.

 

I think we were supposed to assume/remember that Maggie and Beth were running on the steam of their prison farewell, the (paraphrasing) “we don’t need to think of each other all the time or always be together to love each other”.  I don’t think it worked well, and I don’t think TPTB couldn’t have afforded 3 sentences of worrying dialogue to hand Maggie, but I think they thought they had it covered, and Maggie was just exhibiting some kind of becoming stoicism.  Would've helped to have had another pair of characters having this discussion (Darryl/Rick, Rick/Glenn, whomever about Maggie, maybe), but what can you do.

 

As for the luxury of introspective plotlines, it’s a problem.  Because you largely need to be someplace safe and to stop running, not thinking about simply staying alive, in order to think about and debate yourself and your place in society/better personhood/angels of your nature.  Hershel’s farm qualified, Woodbury sorta qualified, you don’t have that option in some flimsy place that a walker could knock down with their breath (or, worse yet, the great outdoors sans walls).

 

As for the poor departed, I don’t know what Dawn was talking about with Beth’s prior-Carol-knowing, tells outside of deus ex machina.  In fact I thought Beth did a great job and one of EK’s best acting moments, came in her turning away from Carol with absolutely no expression in her eyes the prior week.

 

Personally I’m waiting with bated breath for Morgan, because I am extrapolating that repeated drive-bys of a named actor like Lennie James, indicates they have some really good arc in mind for him.  (Of course, I could be delusional, but in a show constructed according to conventional logic, that'd be what it meant.)

Edited December 2, 2014 by queenanne

[Pete Martell]

I don't think Tyreese is responsible for anything that happened with Bob. 

 

The plan bothers me because I just think it relied too much on Dawn and her group giving in. They were lucky it worked as well as it did. 

 

I think what annoys me about Tyreese at the moment is he spends so much time talking about humanity and making the right choice and goodness, and I feel like it becomes a drain and a distraction on those around him, especially Sasha. He spent most of their time in Atlanta giving her these talks, and I get that he's worried about her and wants to stop her from destroying herself, but it just seemed to backfire.

[Iguessnot]

Another glaring stupid thing about the hospital arc was that Beth basically free to roam and always getting info because she was doing some non-essential task nearby TPTB who insisted on talking in her presence. Every single time it happened I wondered why she was mopping with no purpose or fiddling with a picture frame absentmindedly. I think the camera shots were all the same. Blurry TPTB in the background discussing sensitive info, Beth in foreground, too obvious to be a fly on the wall.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Iguessnot

[RedheadZombie]

Morgan's tearful determination to kill his walker-wife, but not being able to overcome it....that was one of the main things that made me fall in love with this show. The pilot still stands out to me as one of the best episodes ever, and that's in no small part due to Lennie James. Also, Clear showed us that yes, Morgan had gone crazy, but he was also a fortifying badass. Morgan was methodical and clever and thought ahead. His only weakness, understandably, was his family. But in that little town, he had done so many of the things that our group should have been doing long ago. I think he has a lot to bring to the table.

 

Moving my response to the Morgan thread.

[Brooke0707]

Did anyone else think that the vibe between RK and EK on TTD was super awkward and strained? I could be projecting, so I would appreciate the perspective of others.

 

Either way, I do think they should have had a co-star on with her and not the two guests they had.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Brooke0707