S05.E08: Coda

[diebartdie]

 

the entire thing was a really clumsy setpiece to nuke the church as a set, and so that the fire engine could come racing up to save them.

That just bugged the hell out of me, the deus machina showing up silently plus then it could just plow into those metal pipes without sustaining any damage when you just know any other time the plot would have called for tiniest of those pipes to just tear hell out of the engine, rendering it forever unusable. Man I am starting to hate this episode wall-to-wall. Kinda getting sour on the show too.

[Pestilentia]

 

Man I am starting to hate this episode wall-to-wall. Kinda getting sour on the show too.

 

That's pretty much what the MSF did for me as well.

All the looking forward to a decent ep shot to shit with zero redeeming value except for the cold open with Rick.

That I liked- everything else was meh.

 

Maybe that's the true result of a zombie apocalypse- those not eaten during the first year soon become bored to death.

[editorgrrl]

Here's the order of Morgan's actions:

• He lays the items on the altar.
• He prays. There's a brief cut before the prayer shot, so we don't know how long he was actually praying.
• He looks up toward the ceiling (or God?).
• He look back over his shoulder at the dead walkers and/or the open entrance of the church.
• He smiles and laughs.
• He stands at the altar, continuing to smile and look upward.
• He steps away from the altar and finds the map.

 

I really get the sense that he's being guided supernaturally toward the Scooby gang. That may all be in my head, though.

 

Morgan was following the marks the Termites cut in the trees to find their way back. Now he'll follow the map on which Abraham oh-so-helpfully wrote Rick's full name.

 

 

I asked in the Morgan thread what makes Morgan so compelling? Is it Lennie James' performance &/or charisma? The fact that the character is now so underwritten we can project our own feelings onto him?

 

[AngelaHunter]

Was it part of (Dawn's) overall plan to win respect through not conceding fully to the others' terms,

 

I saw it that way - her not wanting to lose the respect of her boys in blue or show weakness by totally accepting Rick's terms.

[RustbeltWriter]

My problem with this episode was that some of the actions of the characters simply made no sense, and were required only to get people from Point A to Point B.

 

Like, the entire scene of Father Gabriel leaving the church made absolutely no sense to me and was simply a badly written and transparent way to push FPP's character forward a beat while totally annihilating the church as a haven for them, and in the stupidest way possible:

 

1. First off, he's loudly ripping up floorboards and nobody decides to check on him just to see what the resident crazy guy is up to
2. Then he crawls out just so that he can go reconfirm for himself that the Termites were cannibals (which again, as other commented, Bob's clearly told story and absence of leg pretty much confirmed that)
3. Then he views Bob's gruesome and unbelievably intact leg (I mean, seriously? wouldn't zombies and/or animals have reduced it to nothing at this point?)
4. Then, when Gabriel is at last set upon predictably by walkers, he simply goes limping slowly back to the church (and I'm sorry, but the scene of Gabriel limping slowly with the zombies limping even more slowly behind him had me laughing out loud)
5. Making no attempt to lead the horde off somewhere else, he leads them right up the front steps and into the church, instantly filling the church with walkers in a way I just found silly and unbelievable (as silly as Daryl's previous "opening the door to zombies" scene that ended in separating him and Beth).

 

I just can't.

 

Then, to top it all off, after escaping, he, Michonne, and Carl just stand there watching the walkers slowly break through the door, only to suddenly look panicked when they do. "Where do we go?" asks Michonne, and again, I'm like, "Maybe you should have gotten out of eyesight of the walkers while they were still inside?" 

 

But no, the entire thing was a really clumsy setpiece to nuke the church as a set, and so that the fire engine could come racing up to save them.

 

Anyway. I love the show, and at times I think it's really strong, but I thought this episode was really badly written, and that the whole hospital arc has made no sense from one episode to the next. (Are the people slaves or not slaves? Are all the cops baddies/rapists or just a few? Etc.) I also didn't buy that Rick would run over a valuable hostage and then shoot him. He could have easily disabled Cop Bob and simply returned him back with the others, no fuss. It just felt like an overdone "badass Rick" moment to me that felt unearned and that (as others pointed out) eventually led directly to loss of life at the standoff. Meanwhile, Tyreese's scene was just painful (all of his monologues are variations on a single theme).

 

I did think Emily Kinney did a great job in this episode -- she's very effective when she simply lets her eyes and her face speak for her. I've never thought she was a bad actress, and will miss her on the show. I'd actually enjoyed Beth's evolution and was interested to see how she would have changed when returned to the group, so I'm sorry to see her go. (But I guess Tara will have to carry the flag now of the "Naive Young Female" character now.)

 

Although don't get me started on whether Dawn would actually, really face an armed group after a successful trade and only then demand for the return of a guy who had no interest in staying there. Or that Beth would really take action with those teeny little scissors to commit suicide by cop. I just don't believe it. I also don't believe Rick & Co. would have simply given him up like that either. All they had to do was walk away.

 

I think this episode is a good example of why the writers need to stop pandering or going for watercooler moments and simply concentrate on writing a good story that makes sense logistically. (I love "Talking Dead" and stuff, but sometimes I think the elevation of this show in a pop culture sense leads to the writers and showrunners trading real moments for twitter trends and talking points, and that it did so here.)

 

I agree with your comments 100%. The showrunners and producers really just need to tell the best story possible. The rest of it will take care of itself, especially since the audience is as large as it is now.

[NoWillToResist]

I saw it that way - her not wanting to lose the respect of her boys in blue or show weakness by totally accepting Rick's terms.

 

Because knowing when to cut your losses is always the sign of a bad leader. God, how did Dawn last as long as she did? Is there a reason why most of the men - who apparently didn't like her at all and obviously outnumbered her - let her be leader and boss them around?

[diebartdie]

Because knowing when to cut your losses is always the sign of a bad leader. God, how did Dawn last as long as she did? Is there a reason why most of the men - who apparently didn't like her at all and obviously outnumbered her - let her be leader and boss them around?

Maybe because she allowed (maybe even participated in? encouraged?) the rapes?

[ghoulina]

(I couldn't figure out if Dawn had to put Hansen down because he became "evil" and was head of the rapey squad or because he became weak and the rapey squad came about because they didn't respect him

 

Thank you! The entire hospital storyline was so vague and random. Dawn is bad because she allows cops to rape her wards, but she's good now...she's trying to help Beth help Carol! She's going to take out the bad cop...but wait, she's forcing Noah to come back against his will. What in the actual fuck was up with that slap-happy ho?

 

Well goddamn that would have made sense and actually been powerful. I know a lot of people have negative feelings about the Beth character but goddamnit I LIKED the character and even if she had to die for some plot reason, it should have made sense.

 

I'm not a Beth fan and I'm totally fine with the character being gone, but I felt like her death was completely non-sensical, and the sloppy writing really bugged. 

 

Then he views Bob's gruesome and unbelievably intact leg (I mean, seriously? wouldn't zombies and/or animals have reduced it to nothing at this point?)

 

My first thought was, "Wow, those Termites are really wasteful. There's a whole lot of meat left on that leg". 

 

I think I'm being a little dense here so I apologize in advance, but what was the point of Dawn demanding that Noah return to the hospital? Was it part of her overall plan to win respect through not conceding fully to the others' terms, was she just being a dick, or had she gone crazy (example of crazy: smirking while telling Noah she knew he'd come back like he wasn't being forced to)?

 

My vague guess was that she felt like she "lost" to Rick's group, by giving in and trading with him. So she felt she needed to do something to show her power in front of the other cops, to have the upper hand in a way. But yea, it made no freaking sense to me, really. What if that pissed the group off and they just opened fire? 

[diebartdie]

It would have been way more believeable if Dawn demanded Noah, Noah agreed, then Beth turned to Rick and said, "Rick, these people have electricity, clean hot water, plenty of food and fuel, medicine and a phsycian. This woman here has been allowing rape and forced, unanethesitised amputations. We should take it." Rick would have grunted, told Dawn to put her gun down once, when she didnt, he would have shot her in the head and told the other cops, "I dont care if yall keep wearing those dumb uniforms, Im in charge now and my family is moving in."

 

But no, Robert Kirkman wants the show to be just utter dispair porn.

[JackONeill]

I've been in and out of his discussion since the start, and I've read all the posts.  True, maybe I missed this:  But why did the male cops NEED Dawn?  Is it that the bad ones just didn't care, and the few good ones liked her, thus offering some modicum of protection?  But why didn't the bad ones rape her (or kill her) -- they certainly didn't seem to fear her?  Would the good cops have gotten pissed at the bad ones for doing that?  But the good ones, apparently, didn't mind the raping of the patients and wards, and they didn't mind Dawn putting down Hanson (or whomever)(true, maybe they didn't know . . . but c'mon.)

 

I just honestly can't see why Dawn was in charge.  She didn't seem to be super-duper bad-ass.  She could have been taken out in a minute.   Maybe she was good with all the paperwork.  There's a lot of that in hospitals, you know.  And if one of the patients wanted to transfer to another hospital, you better make sure their records are up-to-date.  (Sarcasm MEANT.)

 

I mean I got why Gareth was the head-BBQ-taster, and why the Gov was . . . well, the Gov.  (And I don't mean this in a sexist way.)  But what was Dawn?  Where was her malice, her malevolence?  Why were other COPS afraid of her, or unwilling to take her down?

[lulee]

My first thought was, "Wow, those Termites are really wasteful. There's a whole lot of meat left on that leg". 

I know! Wouldn't it have been more representative of a cannibal Bobbq feast if the leg section had been there with obvious cuts off of the muscle? Yucky, I know, but we saw Termites vomiting up chunks and yet the leg looked charred but pretty much intact.

[TattleTeeny]

It was a blunder on Facebook's part, of course, to not wait a few hours before posting -- but I really think that people should stay off of the Facebook Walking Dead page while an episode is airing if they don't want to know what happens.  People watching it live will comment on the page in the excitement of the moment, and that is to be expected.

 

Ugh, I have a FB friend who, on Monday, posted that he will delete anyone who posts anything about this week's episode. I have another friend who bitched out everyone on FB a few Sunday nights ago (after 10pm EST) for being inconsiderate of those who may not have seen the episode yet. 

[diebartdie]

 

what was Dawn?  Where was her malice, her malevolence?  Why were other COPS afraid of her, or unwilling to take her down?

I think almost everyone at that hospital was delusional and each delusional person was deliberately enabling every other person's delusions. Dawn's delusion was that she was a powerful leader when in reality she was a pitiful coward. Rapey cop's delusion was that he was rescuing people when in reality he was just making traumatized people that much more traumatized. It was just a giant loop-de-fruitloop of insanity... all so they could all pretend like the collapse of civilization was just a lil hiccup.

[Dobian]

I will miss Beth.  I liked the character, and enjoyed her episodes with Daryl last season.  When she had her first drink it was just so sad, here was a girl who would never enjoy such simple pleasures in life.  It broke my heart to see Maggie collapse like that.

 

As for the sequence of events at the end, it did feel contrived.  Why did Dawn insist on Noah staying, was it that damn important?  All the bad cops were dead, couldn't one of the good ones speak up and tell her to give it a rest?  Were they really going to shoot Rick's group over that?  It just made no sense.  As for her being motivated by not wanting to lose respect, it wasn't about Rick's terms, Noah had nothing to do with that.  If he wants to leave, it's his choice, not Rick's.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Dobian

[Raven1707]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the bit in Dawn and Beth's conversation where Dawn says "I'm not stupid. I know that you know her [Carol]." Anyone want to clue me in on how/why Dawn knows this? Because sweet, idealistic Beth wanted to save someone, that means she knew the person? Really? Knowing how far away Beth was when she was snagged, why would Dawn suspect that Beth and Carol know each other other? And even if I can accept that explanation, shouldn't Dawn have been on the alert then? Because the sudden arrival of someone who Beth knows should be a pretty big indicator that rescue/trouble is afoot.

 

It's only a guess but -- after pushing Officer O'Donnell down the elevator shaft -- Beth chose to seek solitude in Carol's room. Why do that, if they didn't know each other? Beth was staying in a private room, so if she needed to be alone, that would be the logical place to go. And given that Beth had confronted O'Donnell earlier, when he suggested they were wasting resources trying to save Carol, it makes perfect sense to me that Dawn might come to that conclusion.

 

Anybody know what's going on with Bear Mcreary and how his taste in music went to hell? Where are all the good songs?

 

Bear McCreary writes the score for the show; the music supervisor is Thomas Golubic. And I have to disagree about the quality of the songs...I've got an entire Walking Dead playlist of songs he's selected and most are fantastic.

 

I found that laughable.  They constantly write these people performing super-human acts, but FFP can't run because a nail poked his foot for about a quarter of an inch.  This man was loaded with adrenaline, IRL people have run on broken legs in an emergency situation.  Even worse, he limped harder while running with adrenaline.

 

Look again. When he pulls that nail out of his shoe, most of the length of the nail is bloodied, much more than a quarter inch. Buy it or not, the implication is that it went deep into, or even through, his foot.

 

I think we've all been victims of poor writing much of this season. Left to draw my own conclusions, I decided that Gabriel went looking to see if his own child perhaps had been killed at the school. Who is Mary, the owner of the Bible and the backpack? Did he know her? Although, if he did have a child at that school, even a chicken-sh*t like Gabriel would have checked on his child's fate long before this, I suppose.

 

What interests me about that scene is that all of the walkers were clearly adults. Wouldn't you expect to see a bunch of little kid walkers come swarming out of a school? *shudder*  Maybe the students were still working quietly at their desks, which is really sad -- if you can't get out of doing schoolwork in a zombie apocalypse, can you ever? (Yes, I know...the civil authorities might have been using the school as a temporary shelter in the immediate aftermath of all hell breaking loose, but still...where were the little kids?)

Edited December 2, 2014 by Raven1707

[kikismom]

 

 

Bear McCreary writes the score for the show; the music supervisor is Thomas Golubic. And I have to disagree about the quality of the songs...I've got an entire Walking Dead playlist of songs he's selected and most are fantastic.

 

 

Yes, we have talked here on the forum about the scores; especially for the Sophia/barn massacre scene, or the instrumentals used for the prison reveal being used for the Morgan reveal...excellent. Also have a playlist of great songs from the run of the show, but not from this season.

That's why I wondered why is went to hell, it had been outstanding for past seasons. Season 5---IMHO nothing memorable but YMMV.

[Portia]

Morgan was following the marks the Termites cut in the trees to find their way back.

You're right, of course.

 

I still have been feeling a mystical vibe in the Morgan sequences, though . . . that he was being drawn by a force larger than himself. Maybe that's been largely wishful thinking on my part, but that's the reason I was excited (albeit puzzled) by the altar sequence.

[Iguessnot]

 

On the Talking Dead, Kirkman said something to the effect that killing characters kept the story moving forward. That's just awful story telling and it's the kind of thing a creator says when they are out of ideas. The characters on this show move from hazardous situation to deadly situation without any plan or purpose. There is no long term plan to build anything. They actually turned down the invitation to stay at Grady where it was relatively safe and where medical assistance was available to roam around in the woods on foot. I doubt any father with two children, one of them an infant, would do that.

 

I don't think having all your characters immortal except for the red shirts equates to good story telling, especially in a zombie story.  

[90PercentGravity]

It's not that...I am mystified as to why fans ask about him. I mean, he's ok, I don't have anything against the actor, I just don't get the adoration for him. I honeslty wouldn't be upset if he is never seen or heard from again. If anything, the cast, as it is, is already bloated enough, even with Beth now dead.

I think maybe it is a sense of unfinished business. Morgan and Rick bonded and became friends. They were supposed to find each other again, but then they never really did, until they did and then things were different. Plus, during the first two seasons Rick was sending Morgan messages pretty regularly. So while he wasn't there in a physical sense, he had a presence for a lot more than just the episodes he was in.

Edited December 2, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[Ottis]

I think almost everyone at that hospital was delusional and each delusional person was deliberately enabling every other person's delusions. Dawn's delusion was that she was a powerful leader when in reality she was a pitiful coward. Rapey cop's delusion was that he was rescuing people when in reality he was just making traumatized people that much more traumatized. It was just a giant loop-de-fruitloop of insanity... all so they could all pretend like the collapse of civilization was just a lil hiccup.

 

 

I think this is as close to an answer as we are going to get. The hospital was a subtle madness compared to the utter craziness of the ZA outside. Done well, that would have been pretty cool. But IMO it wasn't done well, it was too vague. I kept waiting for the reveal of why the hosiptal survivors were so bad, and it never came. There were insinuations and small things (like pushing the older man to the ground), and Dawn was clearly a little nuts, but then who isn't in a ZA? And then it all ended. But I agree with this post, that the hospital was the show giving us an example of lies people tell themselves to hang onto what they need to believe before going insane.

 

The more interesting impact of the hospital is what it will do to Rick, who is already becoing as hard as anyone we have seen during the series. Who will he ever trust?

 

As for Beth, I liked her a lot in this ep, and the actress as well. She showed us a harder Beth, one who was standing up for her beliefs and calling people on their crap instead of running away. It is sad that her character died so randomly. Until then, I thought she was going to become more of a hardened survivor, but with some basic morals.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ottis

[nachomama]

I wasn't sure what Morgan was doing with the goo goo cluster and the bullet. I wasn't getting the vibe that he was despondent and this was his sacrifice before killing himself, but I imagine the bullet is for that eventuality. But I thought the laugh was from looking up and reading the "whoever eats of my flesh or drinks of my blood" whatever scripture (chosen for the inside joke of "hey look, zombies eat flesh") 

 

I do think he was there seeking some type of answer and yes the map I think provides it. But I think he is "clear" now and I hope they quit teasing us with his appearances. I know partially they can't lock him down (or couldn't) because he's very in demand as an actor, they gotta have something good for him.

[Rosiejuliemom]

Thank you! The entire hospital storyline was so vague and random. Dawn is bad because she allows cops to rape her wards, but she's good now...she's trying to help Beth help Carol! She's going to take out the bad cop...but wait, she's forcing Noah to come back against his will. What in the actual fuck was up with that slap-happy ho?

 

I have been trying to articulate my issues with the hospital storyline for awhile, but this just hits the nail on the head. Vague and random. By the end, I just didn't have any sense of what Dawn's actual motivations were, didn't know if all the cops were jerks or just a few, or really what the hell was going on. As a result, I really didn't care about any of them. They inspired no feelings other than "meh". Now, I'm all for subtlety in storytelling, but that shit was just confusing.

 

What interests me about that scene is that all of the walkers were clearly adults. Wouldn't you expect to see a bunch of little kid walkers come swarming out of a school? *shudder*  Maybe the students were still working quietly at their desks, which is really sad -- if you can't get out of doing schoolwork in a zombie apocalypse, can you ever? (Yes, I know...the civil authorities might have been using the school as a temporary shelter in the immediate aftermath of all hell breaking loose, but still...where were the little kids?)

 

 

There were also no child walkers at the daycare center Daryl and Maggie went to in season 3. I do not mind not seeing little zombies one bit. Sophia and bunny girl were enough for me. Is it unrealistic to not have any child walkers? Absolutely. Does the show not featuring them help me sleep at night? Absolutely. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on that one.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rosiejuliemom

[blackwing]

This has been a pretty pathetic half-season for many of the characters.  The stars of this half-season seemed to be Abraham and Beth.  With a side of Daryl.  Characters who were formerly at the forefront didn't get a whole lot to do.  A new viewer would be hard pressed to believe that Rick was once the main character of the show.  Michonne was almost completely shut out.  Glenn and Maggie were near leads in the last season, and the only thing they really did in these episodes was fetch water and catch a fish.

 

Beth is now gone.  I couldn't care less about Abraham.  I care even less about Eugene.  I hope they both die when the show returns, neither of them are needed.  Unfortunately I think there's little chance that Tyrese and Sasha both make it.  One of them is doomed.  Probably going to be Tyrese.  I think either Rosita or Tara is toast as well.  I'm hoping it's Tara.

 

I get that the show needs to introduce new characters, I just wish they weren't as terrible as Father Pee Pants, Abraham and Eugene.  I was kind of hoping the good lady cop from the hospital would join them.  I'm sure romance isn't on any of these people's minds, but Rick needs to find a mother for Judith.  In this episode I actually thought Carl and Michonne left Judith in the church, until I realised that she was in the backpack thing that Carl was wearing.

Edited December 2, 2014 by blackwing

[AngelaHunter]

Is it unrealistic to not have any child walkers?

 

Concerning the daycare: No one could or would put toddlers through the hours-long makeup sessions needed to turn them into zombies. No one on the show, I mean. I'm  sure there are parents out there crazy enough to be willing to that or anything else to get their kids on TV!

They could certainly show older child walkers by hiring very short, adult extras/actors, but maybe it's thought that no one wants to see little kiddy zombies?

[Timetoread]

I guess I'm unsure of who Tyreese got killed.  Who are the "so many people", Bob?  No, FPP is the reason Bob was bitten.  Gareth was the leader of the cannibals, and the one who relished telling Bob that they were eating his leg.  Martin did partake in the meal, but that would have happened without Martin.  Did Tyreese brag to Martin that Bob was particularly tasty?   Gareth is the reason the group was attacked - they killed his mother.  Knowing Judith's name did nothing but give the viewers a nice little chill.  It did not endanger the baby.  In fact, the baby would have been dead if not for him, and then Carol.  The people truly responsible for the attack on the church, is everyone who fought going back and killing all the termites.  Rick is the one who backed down on his plan - both times.  Rick is my favorite, but he's not infallible. 

 

I don't understand how Rick's plan was brilliant.  How in the world do you know that all the bad guys would have died, and the good guys would have lived?  Most likely, a lot of the wards and rape slaves would have been killed in the crossfire, and who knows how many of Rick's gang. In Tyreese's plan, only one person died - Beth.  And she died because of - Beth.

 

I understand the criticism for his "weakness' and gentle nature, it's similar to why Beth is criticized.  I just don't find him responsible for all that's gone wrong.  It's like he's the new Lori and Andrea.

 

Ok.  Let me begin my post by making it plain and clear that I am committed in my hatred of Tyrese.  I don't care if he does good stuff sometimes and occasionally smiles.  I don't care if he walks on water or flies around the earth backwards, transporting them all to a time before the apocalypse and everybody is happy.  I.don't.care.  I hate him.

 

Now, you are correct that he wasn't directly responsible for the death of Bob or Beth.  I have said before and will repeat, my problem with Tyrese is that he is a sniveling, lying, worthless sack of dead weight who WILL eventually get people killed.  I'm not talking about one event or even one death.  I've been souring on him as far back as his OTT reaction to Karen's death.  The way he was a pouting liability to the group when they went on the run for meds.  The way, when he had the three girls, he left them alone to go after a screaming stranger and had the noise in the woods been a bunch of walkers rather than Carol, Judith might not be with us now.  The way he stood back and held the baby so that Carol!! could go kill the walker coming their way.  The way he didn't kill Martin and then STRAIGHT UP LIED ABOUT HAVING DONE SO.  But here's where sour turned to hate.  When Gareth walked in that church and called out Judith's name. (if I had access to special effects I would put flames around that last sentence).  When he said that, I, like Morgan, saw red.  The ONLY reason Gareth knew to mention the baby is because the man Tyrese was SUPPOSED to have killed told him about her.  Red, I tell you!  And I never said that Rick's plan was "brilliant", but I think Tyrese's kidnap plot sucked ass.  1) because it involved trading two for two when there were many others that required saving and 2) because he wanted that plan simply because he was too much of a coward to pull off the first.  That was about HIS need, not the need for peace and love, not the need to find Beth.  And if all that weren't enough, that big, scum-sucking rat bastard has the nerve (insert flames) - the unmitigated GALL - to feel proud and superior about his pacifist position - looking down his nose at  everyone around him.  The very people that he'd gladly see die saving his pointless ass so that he gets to keep HIS hands clean.  If I weren't at work, I'd type how I REALLY feel about him.  I'll just use the clean version - BUMP HIM and the horse he rode in on!   And as far as I'm concerned he might as well be responsible for all that's gone wrong.  I wished Beth dead a few weeks ago and look what I got.  Perhaps TWD fairies will grant me the gift of Tyrese Brand Zombie Vittles.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Timetoread

[that one guy]

I don't think Lamson was a valuable hostage. He was a snake a could not be trusted. He'd lied to them and hurt Sasha. He presumably aimed to get to Dawn to warn her.

 

 

I think it's simpler than that - Lamson was too injured to move. And bringing back a disabled prisoner perhaps sends the wrong message. Here they were able to blame the death on walkers. The broken back? Walkers don't hit you with a car. I don't think Rick was lying when he said "all you had to do was stop." It was more that trying to move a critically injured prisoner, in the middle of a zombie-infested city, and then trying to explain that to the people he was negotiating with, was too risky.

It feels like there could have been a better way out of this jam - I have a lot of sympathy for Dawn, and feel like the hospital is probably in worse hands now that she's gone. But I enjoyed that the show had no pat answers, and a certain amount of empathy for everyone's positions. Misunderstanding and poor communication is the essence of tragedy. So I liked the final product, but outside of the show itself, I feel like they should have given Emily Kinney more warning about where they were going with her character, since she still seems quite upset about being laid off so suddenly.

 

My other big reaction is, I'm relieved that they didn't kill Carol, because I don't feel like that character is done evolving yet - there's still more story there, and I hope they finish telling it.

[BrokenRemote]

I think it's simpler than that - Lamson was too injured to move. And bringing back a disabled prisoner perhaps sends the wrong message. Here they were able to blame the death on walkers. The broken back? Walkers don't hit you with a car. I don't think Rick was lying when he said "all you had to do was stop." It was more that trying to move a critically injured prisoner, in the middle of a zombie-infested city, and then trying to explain that to the people he was negotiating with, was too risky.

It feels like there could have been a better way out of this jam - I have a lot of sympathy for Dawn, and feel like the hospital is probably in worse hands now that she's gone. But I enjoyed that the show had no pat answers, and a certain amount of empathy for everyone's positions. Misunderstanding and poor communication is the essence of tragedy. So I liked the final product, but outside of the show itself, I feel like they should have given Emily Kinney more warning about where they were going with her character, since she still seems quite upset about being laid off so suddenly.

 

My other big reaction is, I'm relieved that they didn't kill Carol, because I don't feel like that character is done evolving yet - there's still more story there, and I hope they finish telling it.

I agree as far as killing CopBob--if he had a broken back, the apocolypse was probably over for him.  Yes, they knew where a hospital was, and maybe, upon owing eleventy-million strawberries worth of treatment to Dawn he could have been saved.  He wouldn't have had physical therapy, but he could probably walk again eventually.  He'd be in terrible pain and might not ever recover well enough to outrun walkers or to be able to help himself or anyone else, though.  It's a bleak future in this world for someone with a serious injury like that.  Once Rick committed to hitting him with the car, he committed to putting him down if he was hurt that badly. 

[Boofish]

Ok.  Let me begin my post by making it plain and clear that I am committed in my hatred of Tyrese.  I don't care if he does good stuff sometimes and occasionally smiles.  I don't care if he walks on water or flies around the earth backwards, transporting them all to a time before the apocalypse and everybody is happy.  I.don't.care.  I hate him.

 

Now, you are correct that he wasn't directly responsible for the death of Bob or Beth.  I have said before and will repeat, my problem with Tyrese is that he is a sniveling, lying, worthless sack of dead weight who WILL eventually get people killed.  I'm not talking about one event or even one death.  I've been souring on him as far back as his OTT reaction to Karen's death.  The way he was a pouting liability to the group when they went on the run for meds.  The way, when he had the three girls, he left them alone to go after a screaming stranger and had the noise in the woods been a bunch of walkers rather than Carol, Judith might not be with us now.  The way he stood back and held the baby so that Carol!! could go kill the walker coming their way.  The way he didn't kill Martin and then STRAIGHT UP LIED ABOUT HAVING DONE SO.  But here's where sour turned to hate.  When Gareth walked in that church and called out Judith's name. (if I had access to special effects I would put flames around that last sentence).  When he said that, I, like Morgan, saw red.  The ONLY reason Gareth knew to mention the baby is because the man Tyrese was SUPPOSED to have killed told him about her.  Red, I tell you!  And I never said that Rick's plan was "brilliant", but I think Tyrese's kidnap plot sucked ass.  1) because it involved trading two for two when there were many others that required saving and 2) because he wanted that plan simply because he was too much of a coward to pull off the first.  That was about HIS need, not the need for peace and love, not the need to find Beth.  And if all that weren't enough, that big, scum-sucking rat bastard has the nerve (insert flames) - the unmitigated GALL - to feel proud and superior about his pacifist position - looking down his nose at  everyone around him.  The very people that he'd gladly see die saving his pointless ass so that he gets to keep HIS hands clean.  If I weren't at work, I'd type how I REALLY feel about him.  I'll just use the clean version - BUMP HIM and the horse he rode in on!   And as far as I'm concerned he might as well be responsible for all that's gone wrong.  I wished Beth dead a few weeks ago and look what I got.  Perhaps TWD fairies will grant me the gift of Tyrese Brand Zombie Vittles.

I just wanted to say this made my day. Lincoln could not have written a better speech

[ghoulina]

I wasn't sure what Morgan was doing with the goo goo cluster and the bullet. I wasn't getting the vibe that he was despondent and this was his sacrifice before killing himself, but I imagine the bullet is for that eventuality. But I thought the laugh was from looking up and reading the "whoever eats of my flesh or drinks of my blood" whatever scripture (chosen for the inside joke of "hey look, zombies eat flesh")

 

Another poster spec'd that perhaps the goo goo stuff was representative of his son. I wondered if maybe the bullet represented what he couldn't do for his wife? Shoot her? Because she was the one that killed Duane. Maybe it's a reminder to himself of how he slipped up and that he can't do that again?

[Pestilentia]

I just wanted to say this made my day. Lincoln could not have written a better speech

The poster from Bumfuck USA would agree.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Pestilentia

[mandolin]

When he said that, I, like Morgan, saw red.  

I will forever read your posts in Morgan's "I saw RED" voice.

[Pete Martell]

And that's why I find myself surprised that Rick and his group wouldn't try to copy what this group has set up (minus the 'rape in exchange for protection' arrangement). I mean, if your biggest concern in the ZA is a minor tear in your clothing, I'd say you hit the ZA jackpot. They're clearly doing SOMETHING right to be able to play music, stand around chatting, save the occasional human, grow some plants, and not apparently have to worry about walkers worth a fucking damn.

 

The set-up at the hospital is so fucking sweet that if it were run by a decent group of people rather than rapey cops, it would be awesome.

 

That's why I wasn't really surprised that no one appeared to take Rick up on his offer. I mean, they've apparently been cleansed of their asshole rulers, they're warm, dry, clothed, fed and clean. Rick is offering them the opportunity to wander aimlessly among the walkers with no plan in mind, and he looks like he hasn't seen a drop of water in months.

 

If the rape arrangement were gone, hell yeah I could see myself staying at that hospital!

 

It's a system that mostly just benefits a select few. Even that involves ugly choices - Dr. Edwards has to kill people and cover it up so that he can have gerbil, music, and a painting. And he likely won't stop just because Dawn is gone. 

[NoWillToResist]

It's only a guess but -- after pushing Officer O'Donnell down the elevator shaft -- Beth chose to seek solitude in Carol's room. Why do that, if they didn't know each other? Beth was staying in a private room, so if she needed to be alone, that would be the logical place to go. And given that Beth had confronted O'Donnell earlier, when he suggested they were wasting resources trying to save Carol, it makes perfect sense to me that Dawn might come to that conclusion.

 

I got the impression from the way Dawn said it that she'd known longer than just that day. Perhaps I misinterpreted. Also, yeah, I guess Dawn couldn't imagine someone lobbying to save another human being unless they knew them. :)

 

I think it's simpler than that - Lamson was too injured to move. And bringing back a disabled prisoner perhaps sends the wrong message. Here they were able to blame the death on walkers. The broken back? Walkers don't hit you with a car. I don't think Rick was lying when he said "all you had to do was stop." It was more that trying to move a critically injured prisoner, in the middle of a zombie-infested city, and then trying to explain that to the people he was negotiating with, was too risky.

 

I was replying to the poster who said that they didn't understand why Rick HIT the dude with the car. Once he'd done that, it was game over. The question I was attempting to answer was Rick injured him instead of re-capturing and restraining him?

Edited December 2, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Pete Martell]

I've been ruminating on this episode and I keep returning to that Beth and the scissors. Beth taking them for a desperate means of self-defense makes sense, but I just don't think it was in character for her to go on the offensive and stab Dawn. Beth was not that physically impulsive and while she'd changed, where was the groundwork for changing in that respect? I don't think her pondering action against the doctor convinces me that her fleshwounding of Dawn was in character.

 

I don't even think she was pondering - I think she was going to try to kill him. I think it's a feeling of giving up and losing yourself. She felt she'd never have a future in the hospital, never get out, and she only kept on because of Carol. Then she was safe and free, but at the cost of Noah's life. So she lashed out. 

 

That's why I feel like the right way to end this, if they were going this road, was her actually killing Dawn, instead of stabbing her and then getting killed. I think they sacrificed whatever integrity the story could have had so Daryl could have a moment.

I was replying to the poster who said that they didn't understand why Rick HIT the dude with the car. Once he'd done that, it was game over. The question I was attempting to answer was Rick injured him instead of re-capturing and restraining him?

 

I think Rick was just sick of the whole thing. He never wanted to use them as hostages. He likely felt foolish because even if Sasha was the one who let Bad Bob escape, Rick had also believed he was good. And they'd been rewarded for this with physical assault and escape. I think Rick just wanted it done, him done, and with it, his last vestige of belief in trusting his police past or letting it weaken his resolve.

[Boofish]

I would also like to add that it was Tyrese, Sasha and company who gave the Governor intel on the prison and drew them a map. Rick may have told them to leave but before that Carl save their life, they fed them and helped them bury their friend. Haven't cared for either one of them since

[Diane M]

If the rape arrangement were gone, hell yeah I could see myself staying at that hospital!

I was glad to see them leave the hospital......onward to new adventures on the road.

 

There were also no child walkers at the daycare center Daryl and Maggie went to in season 3

There was that one young girl walker with her mother that Daryl buried.

.

[Iguessnot]

It's a system that mostly just benefits a select few. Even that involves ugly choices - Dr. Edwards has to kill people and cover it up so that he can have gerbil, music, and a painting. And he likely won't stop just because Dawn is gone. 

But I got the impression he was eliminating competition to save his own life because the "rules" dictated there be only one doctor. 

[editorgrrl]

I was replying to the poster who said that they didn't understand why Rick HIT the dude with the car. Once he'd done that, it was game over. The question I was attempting to answer was Rick injured him instead of re-capturing and restraining him?

 

Scott Gimple told Entertainment Weekly 

it was an homage to the way Rick kills Martinez in the comics.

What I don't understand is why Bob Lamson ran in a straight line, rather than jumping under that overhang to his right.

 

[Timetoread]

I would also like to add that it was Tyrese, Sasha and company who gave the Governor intel on the prison and drew them a map. Rick may have told them to leave but before that Carl save their life, they fed them and helped them bury their friend. Haven't cared for either one of them since

 

Dammit you're right!!  I forgot about that.  Add ungrateful to my tirade.

[Pete Martell]

 

AFter watching this mid-season fianle I'm feeling justified in my opinion that Kirkman shouldn't be running the storylines. Here are some examples:

 

• Father Gabriel's trip to the school seemed to serve no purpose. What were we supposed to learn about him from this expedition?
• What was Beth's plan? How was stabbing Dawn going to free Noah? All she did was put everyone in danger of having a firefight in that hallway.
• Killing Beth was just a lazy way to have a dramatic mide-season finale. As I've said previously, Beth had the potential to change and grow and that's what characterization is all about.
• On the Talking Dead, Kirkman said something to the effect that killing characters kept the story moving forward. That's just awful story telling and it's the kind of thing a creator says when they are out of ideas. The characters on this show move from hazardous situation to deadly situation without any plan or purpose. There is no long term plan to build anything. They actually turned down the invitation to stay at Grady where it was relatively safe and where medical assistance was available to roam around in the woods on foot. I doubt any father with two children, one of them an infant, would do that.
• We're five seasons in. If Kirkman wants  to show us how dangerous life is in the ZA, he has succeeded. Now show us how these characters will grow and overcome these obstacles.

 

 

How many fathers would put their children in a situation where they'd be living with a variety of strangers, some of whom are rapists? His son was nearly raped not all that long ago. Rick would have no real control over the hospital. He would be with people who have every reason to want him dead and to want his family and the group dead. If the choice is between that big of a risk, and going on the road with people he trusts, I'm not surprised he didn't want to be there. 

 

The show has always killed characters off. If anything they kill off far less members of the group now than they did a few seasons ago, where they were practically feeding people into the woodchipper every few episodes for shock value.

 

Gabriel's trip was mostly to show him the true dangers of the world he'd spent a year and change ignoring. It was heavy-handed, clumsy writing, but I could understand it.

Dammit you're right!!  I forgot about that.  Add ungrateful to my tirade.

 

Ungrateful for being imprisoned and ordered out, essentially. Carl, Axel, Carol, Beth, and Hershel were nice to them, but otherwise they had zero ties to the group. Not to mention that there were two other people with them at that point (the father and son) who were going to give info whether Tyreese and Sasha objected or not. People tend to forget that those two actually wanted to overpower the very weakened prison group and take it over for themselves. Sasha and Tyreese refused.

[Timetoread]

How many fathers would put their children in a situation where they'd be living with a variety of strangers, some of whom are rapists?

 

I don't even think it was the rape angle so much as 1) they'd just escaped Terminus by the skin of their teeth (pun wasn't intended but I think it works nicely here, no?).   The thought of being enslaved or caged would not sit well at all.  And 2) I think the operative word in "rapist cops" for Rick is COPS.  Many of his instincts come from being a cop.  These guys are well armed, mean, and have many of the same instincts.  He noted how deftly the woman cop lied to him and Lambert got the drop on Sasha (who usually has really good instincts).  Every cop left alive would be a x-factor and perhaps even an equal adversary to Rick.  Rick is no coward but he's not going to triple dog dare the universe either.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Timetoread

[Pete Martell]

Although don't get me started on whether Dawn would actually, really face an armed group after a successful trade and only then demand for the return of a guy who had no interest in staying there. Or that Beth would really take action with those teeny little scissors to commit suicide by cop. I just don't believe it. I also don't believe Rick & Co. would have simply given him up like that either. All they had to do was walk away.

 

Dawn was a control freak desperate to still let people see she had some type of power. If they'd refused to let Noah go, she might have acquiesced, but she was also on a real high, since she'd killed off that cop who was going to try to take her down. 

 

Only Beth had ties to Noah, so if Noah was going to agree to return, I don't think the group was invested enough to stop him. They knew the hospital was a terrible place, but once they agreed to the hostage plan Tyreese and Daryl wanted, that meant leaving most of the innocents behind. 

 

I agree with you about Beth. That whole scene was just poorly done.

But I got the impression he was eliminating competition to save his own life because the "rules" dictated there be only one doctor. 

 

He was, but I'm not all that sure the rules will change even without Dawn. I also think he's jaded enough to where he's not going to take the risk.

[NoWillToResist]

I don't even think she was pondering - I think she was going to try to kill him. I think it's a feeling of giving up and losing yourself. She felt she'd never have a future in the hospital, never get out, and she only kept on because of Carol. Then she was safe and free, but at the cost of Noah's life. So she lashed out. 

 

That's why I feel like the right way to end this, if they were going this road, was her actually killing Dawn, instead of stabbing her and then getting killed. I think they sacrificed whatever integrity the story could have had so Daryl could have a moment.

.

 

Yeah, I'd like an explanation as to why Beth wasn't given the 'hero' moment of killing Dawn the oppressor. Is it because she had to go out a good girl, rather than a murderer? I would also have gladly replaced many of the pointless Dawn/Beth chats with Beth pleading with her group and/or the hospital group to do what's right (let Noah be free). That (pleading for others to use their better nature) is far more in-character for her, IMO. Not just assuming that her crew would let some boy be enslaved by someone like Dawn and then pointlessly stick a pair of scissors half an inch into Dawn's collarbone.

 

I also have a big problem with Noah going along with Dawn. I get that he didn't want to cause trouble and that he wasn't Rick's problem, but since Rick immediately defended Noah, IMO, Noah should have just shut the fuck up and waited to see what would happen. Why on earth did he think that Dawn would win that showdown? Her own people objected, FFS.

 

But I got the impression he was eliminating competition to save his own life because the "rules" dictated there be only one doctor. 

 

And let's just take a moment to reflect upon another example of the hospital's stupidity. Why have two doctors around? What possible benefits could happen there? *eye roll*

 

What I don't understand is why Bob Lamson ran in a straight line, rather than jumping under that overhang to his right.

 

That shit is just standard Hollywood. Something big is falling in a straight line from the sky! Rather than stepping 10 feet to the left or right, please run directly in the path of the incoming object to maximize yourself as a target. Sigh. .

Edited December 2, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Pete Martell]

Yeah, I'd like an explanation as to why Beth wasn't given the 'hero' moment of killing Dawn the oppressor. Is it because she had to go out a good girl, rather than a murderer? I would also have gladly replaced many of the pointless Dawn/Beth chats with Beth pleading with her group and/or the hospital group to do what's right (let Noah be free). That (pleading for others to use their better nature) is far more in-character for her, IMO. Not just assuming that her crew would let some boy be enslaved by someone like Dawn and then pointlessly stick a pair of scissors half an inch into Dawn's collarbone.

 

I don't even think the Beth we saw in her final episodes was in pleading mode. Even in earlier episodes, she often was more active than that (shooting a gun in the air when people in the prison were squabbling), but this season seemed to kill the last traces of can't-we-all-just-get-along. I think it was as much about Dawn as Noah. She saw Dawn as not just abusive, but also as completely and totally full of shit, a toxic, inept, dangerous hypocrite with delusions of grandeur. She'd been physically and psychologically abused by Dawn and was still in her head, whether she wanted to be or not. And some part of Beth must have just had enough, as well as realizing if she let Dawn keep Noah, she was no better. 

 

They sacrificed what would have (to me) been somewhat better (as I felt like they were heading toward Dawn/Beth being murder/suicide from the point Dawn let her save Carol) so that Daryl could have a moment. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by Pete Martell

[AngelaHunter]

since (Dawn had) killed off that cop who was going to try to take her down.

 

 

Actually, Beth killed him. Dawn had her gun drawn on him, but was stupid enough to let him disarm her.

 

Only Beth had ties to Noah, so if Noah was going to agree to return, I don't think the group was invested enough to stop him. They knew the hospital was a terrible place, but once they agreed to the hostage plan Tyreese and Daryl wanted, that meant leaving most of the innocents behind.

 

I agree it would have been foolhardy for them to get into a pitched battle over someone who was still basically an unknown quanitity.

 

Ok.  Let me begin my post by making it plain and clear that I am committed in my hatred of Tyrese.  I don't care if he does good stuff sometimes and occasionally smiles.  I don't care if he walks on water or flies around the earth backwards, transporting them all to a time before the apocalypse and everybody is happy.  I.don't.care.  I hate him.

 

Now, you are correct that he wasn't directly responsible for the death of Bob or Beth.  I have said before and will repeat, my problem with Tyrese is that he is a sniveling, lying, worthless sack of dead weight who WILL eventually get people killed.  I'm not talking about one event or even one death.  I've been souring on him as far back as his OTT reaction to Karen's death.  The way he was a pouting liability to the group when they went on the run for meds.  The way, when he had the three girls, he left them alone to go after a screaming stranger and had the noise in the woods been a bunch of walkers rather than Carol, Judith might not be with us now.  The way he stood back and held the baby so that Carol!! could go kill the walker coming their way.  The way he didn't kill Martin and then STRAIGHT UP LIED ABOUT HAVING DONE SO.  But here's where sour turned to hate.  When Gareth walked in that church and called out Judith's name. (if I had access to special effects I would put flames around that last sentence).

 

Thank you for saving me all those keystrokes. I so agree with every word. If I have to keep looking at his "Distressed face with glistening teary eyeballs", that scream at us, without letup, "TYREESE IS SENSITIVE", I may not be able to continue watching this show or control my gag reflex. 

 

My hatred for him started even earlier, from the time he canoodled around picking flowers for the squeeze, refusing to kill walkers that were threatening to push down the fence because he's just TOO SENSITIVE.

 

Watching him hide while Rick and his little SISTER, among others, exterminated the Termites, just peeking out with his standard distressed face and glistening teary eyeballs before hastily retreating ( and closing the door) made me hate him even more, just when I thought that wasn't possible.

 

Yeah, I hate him. A lot.

[Pete Martell]

Actually, Beth killed him. Dawn had her gun drawn on him, but was stupid enough to let him disarm her.

 

Right. I just think Dawn would rationalize it as being her kill.

[Guest]

I couldn't figure out if Dawn had to put Hansen down because he became "evil" and was head of the rapey squad or because he became weak and the rapey squad came about because they didn't respect him

 

Dawn was talking about Hansen forgetting that the men needed incentive to go out and risk their lives to save people and that is why she took him out.  So I think that Hansen rewarded cops for saving people and they got special privileges like extra rations and then that evolved to the people they saved needing to provide payment through various chores and then it became sexual favors and then rape; and at some point Hansen looked around and realized his cops had crossed a line and tried to reign them back in.

 

Maybe the cops respond with a "Blue flu" and they refuse to go out and save people because nothing is in it for them.  Dawn's response is to take out Hansen because at least they were saving lives before.

 

Dawn seems more like a figurehead to me, particularly because she seemed consistently concerned about the cops turning on her.  I think the rapey cops let her do the "administrative" work because it keeps the people more docile having someone in charge that condones the behavior than someone that actively participates in the worst of it.  I think revolt would be more likely if one of the most abusive and rapist cops was in charge.  I suspect a similar dynamic existed with Hansen. 

 

I think Hansen just realized that what he was doing is who he was and moved to changed it. He came to grips with ZA being the new world.  When Beth confronted Dawn with the idea that what she did is what she was and there was no waiting around to be saved and then it would be worth it and she could go back to who she was before, Dawn rejected the idea.

[queenanne]

What interests me about that scene is that all of the walkers were clearly adults. Wouldn't you expect to see a bunch of little kid walkers come swarming out of a school? *shudder*  Maybe the students were still working quietly at their desks, which is really sad -- if you can't get out of doing schoolwork in a zombie apocalypse, can you ever? (Yes, I know...the civil authorities might have been using the school as a temporary shelter in the immediate aftermath of all hell breaking loose, but still...where were the little kids?)

 

I'm not surprised not to see kids because I was expecting (even if we don't know, we may know, I can't think back that far), that the ZA onset came along with newscasters screaming for people to get to shelter/stay indoors/evacuate and/or huddle up with their families.  My firsthand expectation is that you will precisely not see adults deciding to hang out with their kids in daycares etc. in the event of an emergency, unless they're designated emergency centers.  (Of course, that could just be me.)

[maplebrew]

As for the luxury of introspective plotlines, it’s a problem

 

 

This cleared up why Tyreese and Sasha's ethical struggles don't resonate. During their rooftop discussion, Tyreese seems to reaffirm the value of compassion, non-violence and one's sense of self. That should have been encouraging for the audience to hear. But it kind of fell flat because the fur was flying all around them. During this discussion, Sasha would have had a helluva headache from having her head smashed against a window during her act of compassion to Bob2. One didn't need spoilers to know that the hostage exchange plan would go sideways. While maybe it is true that the hostage exchange led to fewer deaths than guns blazing Rick's plan, it is simply hard dramatize a pacifist during an action show. Maybe war time pacifists are at their most important during the fighting but it is difficult to do that dramatically. Within the context of the show, this important introspection makes Tyreese and Sasha seem weak rather than the strong people they actually are. That they were a passing note in Coda didn't help. 

[Timetoread]

Ungrateful for being imprisoned and ordered out, essentially. Carl, Axel, Carol, Beth, and Hershel were nice to them, but otherwise they had zero ties to the group. Not to mention that there were two other people with them at that point (the father and son) who were going to give info whether Tyreese and Sasha objected or not. People tend to forget that those two actually wanted to overpower the very weakened prison group and take it over for themselves. Sasha and Tyreese refused.

Carl et al were more than nice. Carl, a kid, saved their lives from the walkers in the tomb and brought them to a safe place where they received medical care from Herschel. They also received food and rest in a secure place. They were also given sympathy for their loss, space to bury the body and help with the burying. When Rick "kicked them out" it was clear that not only did he seem to be suffering some sort of mental calamity but that the other people there were just as confused and distressed by his behavior. These same people made a case for them to stay until Rick started waving around a gun. It was Glen who told them to leave because Rick was becoming dangerous.

Now if it were me, Id process that as such: a nice group of people, strong survivors who are nurturing women children and the disabled elderly. They save people and share what they have. But clearly something is wrong with their leader right now. I would NOT have processed that as : What a bunch of assholes! Kill them all and the baby too! So yeah, ungrateful.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Timetoread