S05.E07: Crossed

[Pete Martell]

1. Oh, I knew why she was giving the guy grief; my point was that they all waste resources while claiming that they need to conserve them.

 

2. I still think that even a brief scene, or those interspersed 5/10 second flashbacks that this show loves so much would have been fine. I mean, why couldn't we have seen the church stuff scaled down and our people flashing back to that while en route to Atlanta?

 

Hell, I don't even really care about Beth but the utter lack of narrative interest in her just grates. Rick and the group were about to be informed that (A) Beth was alive, (B) Beth was being held captive by a new group holed up in a hospital in Atlanta, and ( C) that Carol was injured by them and then taken. And TPTB didn't think I'd like to see everyone's initial reaction to that?

 

Instead, we catch up to them dismantling the church and then driving all the way to Atlanta before they start discussing their rescue plan. It's just awful story telling. I realize this happens all the time in tv (when discussions are had WAY later despite the characters being around each other for hours since the initial reveal) but it still grates.

 

I also cannot fathom why Rick would leave his two kids with Gabriel, a man he has flat-out stated he does not trust. I'm particularly concerned because he doesn't appear to have shared that rather pertinent information with the sole adult left in charge of protecting his kids.

 

There's nothing to really share with Michonne, IIRC. The group confronted Gabriel and he told them everything, so Michonne can now make a decision with as much evidence as they can. Rick may not have told Michonne about what he and Carl worried over, but he probably knows Carl can tell her.

 

I like Beth, but I guess I'm not as bothered by some over the lack of a reaction scene because I feel like it would have been perfunctory. I know they care about Beth and about Carol, I know they'd want to save them, yet I also know they are a glum, preoccupied group who wouldn't have much to say. Logically I see why it should have been included, because we need to see the reactions and the payoff moments. I guess I sort of liked the idea of just coming back to see them being all business, because that's where they are now. They don't have time for emotional responses. I would have put it in place of the cliffhanger with Daryl and the mystery person, as that was a little cheesy.

 

Nothing about the plan or the plan for the plans makes sense to me. I can see where Rick might have just said they should go now, while they have a chance, and work out the rest later. I do see what you mean now that you've brought it up.

[NoWillToResist]

That actually explains even more why Rick left Michonne.  I'd forgotten his whole speech to Gabriel and how much he didn't trust him.  It makes senses he'd leave someone he was sure wouldn't hesitate, even to kill a preacher, if the family were endangered.

 

I kind of thought Michonne's knocking on the door with her wary 'Are you ok?' looked like a veiled 'Cause you're acting like a freaking lunatic, so....'

 

I think it would have been even better if Rick had taken Gabriel with them! Pretend you want him there because maybe Carol will need last rites and then "accidentally" leave him behind. ;)

 

Ok, I read her expression as concerned about him, not that she thought he was acting shady. She's just been very solicitous towards him, consistently, and it's worrying me. Perhaps I've just misread her facial expression/tone at the door.

[NoWillToResist]

Nothing about the plan or the plan for the plans makes sense to me. I can see where Rick might have just said they should go now, while they have a chance, and work out the rest later.

 

But "later" would have been on the drive to Atlanta, no? They only had the one vehicle, which presumably Daryl drove. So...what exactly did Rick, Sasha, Tyreese and Noah chat about in the back while on that trip to rescue Beth and Carol? The weather? How was information not exchanged and plans suggested and discarded and fine-tuned before they holed up in the city?

Edited November 25, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Sofie Fatale]

 

I also cannot fathom why Rick would leave his two kids with Gabriel, a man he has flat-out stated he does not trust. I'm particularly concerned because he doesn't appear to have shared that rather pertinent information with the sole adult left in charge of protecting his kids.

The church has been fortified and Michonne aka THE WEAPON is watching his kids. Rick couldn't bring them with him into the unknown that is Atlanta, so he had no choice. Without actually showing a convo, I think it's clear that none of them actually trust FPPP. Their first encounter and reaction to him in the woods showed that I think.

Besides that, Michonne is pretty weary of ANYONE who isn't part of the group anyway.

[Rosiejuliemom]

The Governor was a dictator but on the surface a benevolent, paternal figure to his people (kinda like Kim Jong-un).

 

Gareth was the most unconventional, and hence, interesting villain so far, due to his Starbucks manager/psycho admixture.

 

Dawn is just a martinet, and they are a dime a dozen now, so it's likely more than a few would survive years into the ZA.  Unless I see more from her I will consider her the lamest antagonist thus far.

 

The well walker and the deer from season 2 are both better antagonists than Dawn. I don't know if it is the writing, the acting, or just a general lack of caring, but Dawn and the lollicops are boring me to tears.

 

I think the thing with Maggie and the ladder wasn't filler.  It was to illustrate that Abraham would just sit there while she was obviously struggling with the ladder, and that of all of them, she is perhaps the most compassionate.  Now, whether everyone cares about those things, obviously mileage may vary, but I didn't see it as just looking for a way to kill 2 minutes (I don't think it was anywhere near 10...).

 

Oh, also, Abraham knocking the water away and spilling it?  As scarce as drinkable water is for them that should be an offense that gets you hung up from your ankles in a tree with a sign that says "Main Course" on it for the walkers that can read.

 

I didn't mind Maggie's adventure with shade, although I was hoping to hear her rip into Abraham again for his toddler-esque behavior. Something along the lines of "Look, I know you're dealing with a lot of shit right now. So is everyone else. 10 days ago, my father was decapitated in front of me and I have no idea where or how my sister is. Ya don't see me having a BSOD on the side of the road, now do ya?"

Edited November 26, 2014 by Rosiejuliemom

[AngelaHunter]

The well walker and the deer from season 2 are both better antagonists than Dawn. I don't know if it is the writing, the acting, or just a general lack of caring, but Dawn and the lollicops are boring me to tears.

 

It's at times like these you can see that this was adapted from a comic book (which I've never seen) since they are really like comic book villains. They're completely evil, from what I can see, and complete evil can be boring. I think they were trying to show another facet of Dawn when she told Beth to help Carol, but it just fell flat, IMO.

[Pete Martell]

Oh, I have complete faith in his trust in Michonne; I'm just not sure, based on Michonne's behaviour, that she is also as leery of Gabe.

 

Either she's keeping that shit close to her chest, or she believes he is just a sweet, naive, mild-mannered priest. She's been very nice and gentle with him; I've seen no hint of suspicion or mistrust from her, not even once Gabe has turned away. I can't understand why she didn't question why he only opened the door about three inches after his 'nap' to talk to her. Has she never seen a movie? If someone is talking to you through a three inch gap, they are hiding something/someone from you.

 

I think she sees him as a frightened and weak person who can become better with time. I think she probably remembers how she was treated when she came to the prison, and she doesn't want to see him face the same. He's so hidden away I think that's probably why she didn't wonder why he barely opened his door. I'm not sure any of them would have realized he'd do something so crazy just to get out, as they don't realize that he's so sure they're psycho killers that he wouldn't just ask to leave through the front door.

But "later" would have been on the drive to Atlanta, no? They only had the one vehicle, which presumably Daryl drove. So...what exactly did Rick, Sasha, Tyreese and Noah chat about in the back while on that trip to rescue Beth and Carol? The weather? How was information not exchanged and plans suggested and discarded and fine-tuned before they holed up in the city?

 

Noah was probably telling them about the layout and his history there. Based on that quick scene with Tyreese, Sasha wasn't interested in talking.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Rick avoided talking in detail about a plan until they got there, to get a look around, as well as to avoid what ended up happening (his plan being derailed).

[Rosiejuliemom]

It's at times like these you can see that this was adapted from a comic book (which I've never seen) since they are really like comic book villains. They're completely evil, from what I can see, and complete evil can be boring. I think they were trying to show another facet of Dawn when she told Beth to help Carol, but it just fell flat, IMO.

 

True. I do appreciate subtle and understated villany. To me it just seems like Dawn ping pongs between cartoon evil and sympathetic woman trying to hold things together as best she can. Something about this entire storyline is just off somehow.

[Mu Shu]

"If Beth falls in the hospital and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Not if Maggie's around, it doesn't.

 

The whole problem with the Dawn/Raper cop scenario is that the raper cops out number her.    They could easily turn on her, and force her and the other lady cop, both BTW, who are quite attractive, to be their concubines.    That would save gas, for one thing.     Not that I'm a raper cop or a guy, but IMO,  Beth is far less attractive and too much trouble.   Why take her on?    She's another mouth to feed, and all you have to do is light a fire under Strawberry fields guy and make him mop faster. 

 

Would they have tossed Noah down the elevator shaft once they figured that not only  was Carol a far more experienced ironer, she actually had an ironing board during the damn ZA whilst camping out?    Of course, today's Carol would be more inclined to whop them upside with an iron than press dawn's uniform. 

[Pete Martell]

The whole problem with the Dawn/Raper cop scenario is that the raper cops out number her.    They could easily turn on her, and force her and the other lady cop, both BTW, who are quite attractive, to be their concubines.    That would save gas, for one thing.     Not that I'm a raper cop or a guy, but IMO,  Beth is far less attractive and too much trouble.   Why take her on?    She's another mouth to feed, and all you have to do is light a fire under Strawberry fields guy and make him mop faster. 

 

It's not really about attraction, mostly about power. These cops technically have most of the power, while Dawn is the figurehead. They do most of what they want to do, while she gets the blame, or smooths things over for them. If she was gone, there would be a power struggle over who would be in charge, and most of them likely don't want that.

 

I don't have a problem believing that they'd keep her in charge, or that she's a bumbling control freak who in her mind is trying her best. 

 

My problem is when they start getting into the whole, "She's not so bad," or, "So and so cop isn't so bad." That's when it just feels like telling, not showing, and when they seem to be trying to make poor parallels with Rick's group.

[TallulahBelle]

Okay, I have a question - people seem to have heard internal bleeding, when I heard the doctor tell Beth she had internal injuries - I don't have access to the ep right now, so can someone confirm because I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on tv, but if Carol had internal bleeding, wouldn't they have operated on her, I know they have the ultrasound but wouldn't they have opened her up if she was bleeding internally - being that they hadn't yet made the decision to turn off her 'life support'?  If she just has internal injuries, that could be as simple as broken or fractured ribs, right? Or did I mishear that completely??  

 

Help me PTV forum posters, you're my only hope.  Other than waiting until I'm home from work and rewatching the ep . . .

[editorgrrl]

Was Sasha wearing Bob's shirt?

 

According to this interview with Sonequa Martin-Green, yes:

[sasha] rips Bob’s coat, which she has been wearing, and Tyreese tells her she has to say goodbye. It looked like the Bob situation was maybe driving a wedge between Sasha and her brother for a while, but now it seems like she is finally allowing him to offer her some help and some comfort. Tell me about that sibling relationship through the whole Bob tragedy.

 

The article says that shooting for season 5 has wrapped—so TPTB won't have to work Green's pregnancy into the storyline at all.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

I have a question - people seem to have heard internal bleeding, when I heard the doctor tell Beth she had internal injuries -

 

He said, "She suffered Internal injuries...it's just a guessing game."

 

ETA:

 

I think I'm going to start using "Roadrunner" instead of "Bad Bob." Wouldn't it be fun if he never makes it back to the hospital? Every week, we keep seeing like a one or two minute scene of him running around, getting chased by zombies, opening cans of sardines with his teeth, dragging his butt around on the ground like a dog (or maybe against a modern art painting,) trying to get his pants down so he can poop... I'll take the Zombie Apocalypse Adventures of Roadrunner over the FPP Crybaby Hour any day of the week.

 

This resulted in a shower of chocolate chip cookie crumbs on my keyboard. Bwhahahha!!! I would SO love that. Every once in a while, we get a "Meanwhile..." across the screen before seeing one of the above scenes. I'd like that a hell of a lot more than watching PeePee do housekeeping.

Edited November 26, 2014 by AngelaHunter

[mandolin]

It's at times like these you can see that this was adapted from a comic book (which I've never seen) since they are really like comic book villains. They're completely evil, from what I can see, and complete evil can be boring. I think they were trying to show another facet of Dawn when she told Beth to help Carol, but it just fell flat, IMO.

Except Dawn and the Grady crew aren't in the comics...

[Nashville]

I know some fans said Glenn was checking Rosita out. I didn't see it, but maybe I'm just desperately hoping this won't go to a love triangle.

 

There was some bonding between Glenn and Rosita, but I don't think it was on any romantic level.  I felt Glenn was communicating - and Rosita was receiving - the message, "Look, no matter what goes down with Eugene and Abraham - YOU [Rosita] have options with us."

[ghoulina]

She's another mouth to feed, and all you have to do is light a fire under Strawberry fields guy and make him mop faster.

 

Would they have tossed Noah down the elevator shaft once they figured that not only  was Carol a far more experienced ironer, she actually had an ironing board during the damn ZA whilst camping out?

 

MuShu, quit making me laugh like this or I'm going to have to come hurt you.

[ghoulina]

Except Dawn and the Grady crew aren't in the comics...

 

Seriously? Then why are we being made to suffer this insanity? I don't mind them veering from the comic, not at all, but give us something GOOD.

[paigow]

There was some bonding between Glenn and Rosita, but I don't think it was on any romantic level.  I felt Glenn was communicating - and Rosita was receiving - the message, "Look, no matter what goes down with Eugene and Abraham - YOU [Rosita] have options with us."

If the group never reconnects with Rick et al, Rosita and Maggie are the only straight girls left. Glenn - in player mode- is maximizing his options down the road.

[JBody]

I think the thing with Maggie and the ladder wasn't filler. It was to illustrate that Abraham would just sit there while she was obviously struggling with the ladder, and that of all of them, she is perhaps the most compassionate. Now, whether everyone cares about those things, obviously mileage may vary, but I didn't see it as just looking for a way to kill 2 minutes (I don't think it was anywhere near 10...).

Oh, also, Abraham knocking the water away and spilling it? As scarce as drinkable water is for them that should be an offense that gets you hung up from your ankles in a tree with a sign that says "Main Course" on it for the walkers that can read.

Well okay, it wasn't 10 minutes, it just felt like it, as did FPP's ersatz The Great Escape routine. We know she's compassionate, and it's good she showed Sgt. Moobs (he better shape up soon, beginning to loathe him), I just would've like a word or two between them... Maggie has been far too quiet this season.

[Mu Shu]

There was a lot of wasted time, but I did learn that anytime I need to bribe someone, all it takes is a few strawberries.   Wash my car?   Here's three strawberries for ya!   Clean my dirty house?   How does four strawberries sound?    Take that miserable CPC exam for me?  Poo, I'll give you a whole quart.  Seriously, what were the strawberries for?   Dumb.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Mu Shu

[Lyndy]

The well walker and the deer from season 2 are both better antagonists than Dawn. I don't know if it is the writing, the acting, or just a general lack of caring, but Dawn and the lollicops are boring me to tears.

I wonder if all villains will just forever pale in comparison to The Governor. Even Gareth -- though hugely creepy -- was just nowhere near as sinister. For the record, I'm ready for the end of Dawn too. Right after they explain why the hell all of the lollicops are letting her make all the rules.

[Irishmaple]

I think the cops are letting Dawn make the rules because she makes rules that they like, which saves them the trouble of having to organize the day-to-day running of the hospital and being the unpopular jerk who occasionally tells them they can't have everything they want.  Dawn's the target of dissatisfaction.  The rest of them just get to do what they want with her permission.  Why rock that boat? 

[Raven1707]

Did anyone even ask Noah: How many cops? How many guns? How many are likely to fire back (subjective, I understand, but like the one cop said; Not all of them are "real" cops)?

 

Noah apparently told them what he could, including the basic floor plan of the occupied section of the hospital -- Rick was marking x's where each of them were to go. And they did a countdown of who they'd have left to deal with after the initial attack, that there would be three officers facing six of them (optimistically including Beth in their group). At that point, Noah says it would be twelve to three, that the wards would join them in facing off with the last three cops.

[AngelaHunter]

I wonder if all villains will just forever pale in comparison to The Governor.

 

For me, the difference between the EVIL Gov and EVIL Dawn and her Leering Brigade of Evilness is that David Morrissey has the skill and acting talent to have made the Governor into a real - albeit twisted - person with actual emotions that showed on his face and he was not JUST a moustache-twirling cartoon villain who lives only for villiany. Being portrayed as a real person made him scarier, IMO.

 

Even Gareth seemed a little one-dimensional in his obsessive and orgasmic joy in eating people.

[lacEdoll]

Epinephrine won't cause bleeding to restart. Epinephrine is manufactured adrenaline. It is a first line drug used in resuscitation efforts...CPR, ACLS algorithms call for it. It is helpful in cardiogenic shock patients...which Carol certainly would be after the types of untreated internal injuries she'd have suffered being hit by that ambulance. It does raise the blood pressure, among other things. But it does not cause rebleeding. So it would be correct to administer it in a drip form, not a bolus though. That was a crazy thing to see, that much given that quickly could actually kill someone.

[Nashville]

Epinephrine won't cause bleeding to restart. Epinephrine is manufactured adrenaline. It is a first line drug used in resuscitation efforts...CPR, ACLS algorithms call for it. It is helpful in cardiogenic shock patients...which Carol certainly would be after the types of untreated internal injuries she'd have suffered being hit by that ambulance. It does raise the blood pressure, among other things. But it does not cause rebleeding. So it would be correct to administer it in a drip form, not a bolus though. That was a crazy thing to see, that much given that quickly could actually kill someone.

 

Correct.  The only relation I was making between epinephrine and blood loss was based on increased blood pressure either (a) accelerating existing bleeding, or (b) re-initiating previously stopped bleeding by breaking or dislodging new clots formed as part of the healing process.  I wasn't suggesting epinephrine would initiate new bleeds - or at least, I didn't mean to.  :)

[Pete Martell]

For me, the difference between the EVIL Gov and EVIL Dawn and her Leering Brigade of Evilness is that David Morrissey has the skill and acting talent to have made the Governor into a real - albeit twisted - person with actual emotions that showed on his face and he was not JUST a moustache-twirling cartoon villain who lives only for villiany. Being portrayed as a real person made him scarier, IMO.

 

Even Gareth seemed a little one-dimensional in his obsessive and orgasmic joy in eating people.

 

They had a good idea of showing us The Governor's humanity so we'd be more upset when he became fully dark, but overall I was never all that frightened by him. There was too much lackadaisal wandering around Woodbury, too much unintentional comedy (the eyepatch that reeked of 12-year old Kirkman showing how boss he was; the fake beard, the bad music video scenes of Woodbury on fire; gunning down his army; firing the machine gun in the air at the prison) until his last few episodes, where he did start to frighten me because everything had been stripped away. The only season 3 scenes that worked for me (and he had many, many scenes in season 3) were his fight with Michonne and his beating poor Milton.

 

Gareth worked for me as a villain because of the everyday nature of his menace. We got a sympathetic backstory, but I actually would have preferred to never have known, and just see him as he was in Terminus. That was interesting to me - had he always been like this, was the ZA his opportunity, was this his idea of order or basic living. That blase terror he wore, along with the show wisely only having him a few episodes, went a long way. 

 

I don't think we're supposed to be afraid of Dawn. I think "Slabtown" had her as more of a villain, but even then, they were trying to imply she wasn't the main problem. Now we get more indications of that - she's weak, she's a figurehead, the true foe is the system itself, the danger of "order" in the wrong hands. The problem for me is she just isn't interesting at all. I don't pity her or fear her or want to know her. 

 

The most terrifying villain on the show was Shane, because he wasn't even truly a villain, he was a very disturbed man we'd seen fall apart over the course of two seasons. We saw him slowly decay until he seemed more like a walker in life than in death. We could understand him and his motivations. And that was frightening, because he was a part of us. He was also the villain death with the most consequences (by far), because when he died, a huge part of Rick went with him, never to return.

 

The group's only true enemy is itself. And if they ever want to have a formidable villain again I think it has to come from the group. 

There was a lot of wasted time, but I did learn that anytime I need to bribe someone, all it takes is a few strawberries.   Wash my car?   Here's three strawberries for ya!   Clean my dirty house?   How does four strawberries sound?    Take that miserable CPC exam for me?  Poo, I'll give you a whole quart.  Seriously, what were the strawberries for?   Dumb.

 

I don't even really think it was about the strawberries. They were the obvious bribe, but this was an old, sick man with no friends or family, knowing he was being kept alive by a whim and could die at any moment. Beth was likely one of the only people in there who was genuinely kind to him. If he could help her, and trick people who are essentially his jailers, he wasn't going to pass it up.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Pete Martell

[TallulahBelle]

With the strawberries as well, she would have gotten them from the kitchen/cafeteria, someone would have added it to her tally of what she owes - by getting them from her, he doesn't add to his, is how I saw it.

[JBody]

Ah that reminds me, WHY was that old guy there? What does he bring to the table? Is he Dawn's dad or something? He wouldn't have the physical strength or stamina to be of much assistance, I do not want to think he's part of the Joy Division, and Dr. Death wouldn't allow another man with medical knowledge to live there and soak up all those precious resources they keep banging on about. The more I think about the hospital the less it makes sense. Best not to think too much.

[Pestilentia]

One would think, 2 years in, people would have not only learned how to use things to fish, they would have picked up a few fishing poles... 

 

 

BTW - I've always wondered why they don't simply set up at the edge of a lake or river and live off of fish and seafood, which I am sure is plentiful.

 

 

The way Glenn said "Those are fish..." and Tara followed with "How...?" led me to believe that fish have not been that abundant so far.

 

I liked the way Maggie drug that ladder around- it reminded me of J.T Walsh dragging that chair across the floor in Sling Blade.

She was doing it purely to annoy and make a point to Abraham.

Although clocking him with it Three Stooges style would have worked, too.

[Pete Martell]

Ah that reminds me, WHY was that old guy there? What does he bring to the table? Is he Dawn's dad or something? He wouldn't have the physical strength or stamina to be of much assistance, I do not want to think he's part of the Joy Division, and Dr. Death wouldn't allow another man with medical knowledge to live there and soak up all those precious resources they keep banging on about. The more I think about the hospital the less it makes sense. Best not to think too much.

 

I think Dawn always keeps a certain amount of people around to help herself feel powerful. The other cops likely don't care, as it gives an excuse to go out and find more nurses they can rape. It's probably mostly when someone is much more likely to die that they get the knife to the brain.

[JackONeill]

It's at times like these you can see that this was adapted from a comic book (which I've never seen) since they are really like comic book villains. They're completely evil, from what I can see, and complete evil can be boring. I think they were trying to show another facet of Dawn when she told Beth to help Carol, but it just fell flat, IMO.

The thing about the hospital story is that it reminds me of the 1970s TV show Emergency.  Everything about that was hammy and over-the-top.  I know that's me bringing that thought to TWD.  BUT - the writers and actors have done nothing to dissuade me of it.

[ghoulina]

I wonder if all villains will just forever pale in comparison to The Governor. Even Gareth -- though hugely creepy -- was just nowhere near as sinister.

 

Oh I disagree. I found Gareth much creepier, and more interesting, than the Governor. I think he has been the best villain yet. Although, part of that was that they didn't overuse him. I think a big part of my issue with Dawn is that the actress is just so bland. And then she hauls of and hits people every five minutes. I get nothing from her. No motivation. No reasoning. Nothing. 

 

Ah that reminds me, WHY was that old guy there? What does he bring to the table? Is he Dawn's dad or something? He wouldn't have the physical strength or stamina to be of much assistance, I do not want to think he's part of the Joy Division, and Dr. Death wouldn't allow another man with medical knowledge to live there and soak up all those precious resources they keep banging on about. The more I think about the hospital the less it makes sense. Best not to think too much.

 

Maybe he's the only one who knows how to raise guinea pigs?

[BrokenRemote]

Well okay, it wasn't 10 minutes, it just felt like it, as did FPP's ersatz The Great Escape routine. We know she's compassionate, and it's good she showed Sgt. Moobs (he better shape up soon, beginning to loathe him), I just would've like a word or two between them... Maggie has been far too quiet this season.

I didn't mean to come off as snarking on you. I was kind of replying to all the comments on that scene, some of which were along the lines of 'why is this scene here? Was it intended as filler?' I was basically trying to say that I thought the writers did have an intent for the scene beyond filler, even if it didn't come across very well. I knew you knew it wasn't really 10 minutes--It would have been better for me to have said it didn't feel like 10 to me. I truly hope you don't think I was trying to be rude to you.

I agree 100% that it would have been much more powerful had Maggie mentioned that she's gone through as much or worse than Abe and she was being productive instead of crouching by the road like a whiny baby. Was this the scene where she said he wasn't the only one who list the hope, and that now 'this' was all they ever have to look forward to, or am I combining 2 scenes in my head? I do remember thinking as I watched her silently struggling with the ladder that this was her proving a point to Abe that he wasn't likely to get.

I kind of have this feeling that they're going somewhere with Maggie's silence, about Beth and in general, that they're intentionally having her bottle everything up to blow later or something. At least it might explain how the character's been acting, but I'm not sure if I trust them to do it well...

[JackONeill]

Yeah, I think they're heading somewhere with Maggie.  I think it'll be significant.  But, one place I don't what to go with Maggie is her getting jealous of Tara and/or Rosita.  I noticed some people up thread said they thought Glenn was casting some looks at one or the other.  I don't want this show turning into a soap, although a bar of soap that suddenly materialized for them would be greatly appreciated.

Edited November 26, 2014 by JackONeill

[Constantinople]

I wonder if all villains will just forever pale in comparison to The Governor. Even Gareth -- though hugely creepy -- was just nowhere near as sinister.

Are you kidding me?

Gareth could eat the Governor for breakfast.

[bosawks]

I do miss all the governor pirate jokes.......

[Timetoread]

To me, Daryl's at his best when he's got someone like Rick around, who he respects.  But when it was Daryl and Merle, or Daryl and Beth (even), Daryl has a tendency to subjugate himself.  He starts deferring and hemming and hawing.  But with Rick, he's not only a good second-in-command, but he can stand up to Rick and talk him down of the ledge, which happens often.

 

I just want to add that Daryl has stepped it up in several situations - like when he and Maggie went to find formula for newborn Judith and after Daryl grabbed the baby and fed her himself and then gave her a "name".  Another instance was when the group (that included alpha female Michonne and broody, useless Tyrese) went on a run for the meds.  He called the shots and stood up to drunk Bob.  And yet another when he made Merle stand down with those people on the bridge and then forced the group to allow Merle to stay at the prison.  I think Daryl has good enough instincts as a leader but he's got an introverted personality.  He'll take low to people he respects and cares for but he doesn't follow blindly and he will stand up to them if he has serious problems with what they are doing.

 

Speaking of Michonne being an alpha female (In wolf packs, the alpha female is the mate of the alpha male - she answers to none but her spouse.  Just sayin', just sayin'!!!).  I've noticed that Michonne will submit only to men who she senses alpha strength in - submit in the sense of go along with their agenda, not be a doormat to.  She does this naturally with Rick but she also seems to take a strong shine to Daryl.  I think that says as much about him as it does her.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Timetoread

[JackONeill]

I thought the Governor had potential but somehow - the length of the story line, Andrea, something - it went horribly wrong, like a train wreck.

Yes, to me, though evil-evil-evil-yet-so-unassuming, Gareth was, ultimately, one-note.  That's cause he didn't know how to use spices.

[Pixel]

Epinephrine won't cause bleeding to restart. Epinephrine is manufactured adrenaline. It is a first line drug used in resuscitation efforts...CPR, ACLS algorithms call for it. It is helpful in cardiogenic shock patients...which Carol certainly would be after the types of untreated internal injuries she'd have suffered being hit by that ambulance. It does raise the blood pressure, among other things. But it does not cause rebleeding. So it would be correct to administer it in a drip form, not a bolus though. That was a crazy thing to see, that much given that quickly could actually kill someone.

 

Right, but if there is already existing bleeding, increased heart rate and higher pressure will exacerbate it.

[Timetoread]

The most terrifying villain on the show was Shane, because he wasn't even truly a villain, he was a very disturbed man we'd seen fall apart over the course of two seasons. We saw him slowly decay until he seemed more like a walker in life than in death. We could understand him and his motivations. And that was frightening, because he was a part of us. He was also the villain death with the most consequences (by far), because when he died, a huge part of Rick went with him, never to return.

 

What you wrote about Shane was beautiful and kind of choked me up - especially the truth about the fact that in many ways, it killed Rick to kill Shane.  I agree that what made that so compelling and terrifying is not the external bears that are scratching outside your doors but the enemy that is festering from within.  I wish the writers would have taken notes on what Jon Bernthal portrayed in Shane (because I really do give the actor the full credit for making Shane so complex) and explore more about the long term affects of the PTSD that I'm sure they are all suffering with.  They ALL have lost everything.  I would expect more drunks, suicidal types, and people just being plain cukoo as the apocalypse wears on - even in the core group.  This was well played on another show - Battlestar Galactica - and I won't spoil those who haven't seen it, I'll just say Dualla.  I've always been in this for the human stories and human stories can be told without things being a "soap opera".  For example, I've got a whole storyline in my head that actually does pair up Glenn with Rosita that isn't a page out of the CW, but is instead tragic and human and true to the characters.  I would buy ANYTHING they put out if it fit those markers. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by Timetoread

[Timetoread]

A few things fell flat with the Governor for me and I blame the writing.  The actor could have pulled it off, in my opinion.  For starters, I think a misstep was showing the Guv's evil face from the first episode when he gunned down the army folks.  I feel that the Guv's full crazy should have been played closer to the chest.  That Michonne sensed something truly off about him that others didn't sense - including us.  And the Penny reveal would show that she was right that he was bad but he was worse than even she thought.  The fling with Andrea should have played out differently as well.  Instead it became a platform for Andrea to be annoying, when I feel it could have been more of a platform for her falling in love with both the man and the presumed safety he and his town provided, but have her become victimized/abused by him - kind of like Carol.   This would have given Carol's words more weight (what she wished she had done to Ed), and more weight to Andrea being unable to do it.  Saving her would become the agenda for Michonne and CDB, and it would still culminate in her death - which would have been sad and not happy like it was.  The final thing that fell flat was that it was never clear why the Guv wanted the prison so much.  I don't feel that they set up Gov/Rick as a true enemy pairing.  I felt that his REAL enemy was Michonne and that his motivation should have been to kill anything around her as means of torture. ETA: This would have also have made the "trade" scenario seem like an actual good idea.  Giving him Michonne would alleviate the terror.  However, as written, it became too much about Rick for me to accept for what they'd shown.

 

All that said, I found Guv scarier than Gareth.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Timetoread

[lulee]

Gareth would have looked at the Gov and been disappointed that someone got to the nice eyeball appetizer before him.

[JackONeill]

The writers should indeed take note: The two super-baddies from the comics - The Gov and Gareth - both had their "problems" eliciting the feelings that the writers really wanted. Yet Shane did, and Shane (as a character) died early (earlier than the show) in the comics.  So what we got there was, in essence, a "new" character who, like Timetoread said, was effective largely because of the actor's strength.  He gave us nuance.

Edited November 26, 2014 by JackONeill

[AngelaHunter]

A few things fell flat with the Governor for me and I blame the writing.  The actor could have pulled it off, in my opinion.  For starters, I think a misstep was showing the Guv's evil face from the first episode when he gunned down the army folks.  I feel that the Guv's full crazy should have been played closer to the chest.

 

I said that when I first watched that season. Pete Martell mentioned the "12 year old Kirkman" needing to show "How boss he was" and for me the most ridiculous moment was the heads in aquariums and later the medieval torture chamber. We get it, Kirkman! He's EVIL!! I guess the words "subtlety" and "suspense" are unknown to him.  If the aquariums had been skipped and the twisted mind of the Gov shown to us in little hints - moments that slowly revealed the madness - it would have had much more power, IMO. With that script, it was miraculous that DM was still able to give quite a nuanced performance. Another, less talented and hammier actor would have made the whole thing unbearably cartoonish.

 

Gareth could have been more frightening had he not been so one-note, IMO. Someone called him a "psychopathic Apple employee" and I think that was pretty apt. I know the scene with Bob and his leg being eaten was supposed to be horrific, but I merely found it slightly gross and couldn't help but snicker at it.

[NurseGiGi]

Shane has always been one of my favorite characters simply because the actor did such an excellent job.  He could have been more one note but they allowed us to see his slow descent and JB knocked it out of the park.  I was able to have empathy for him and I don't think I would have with another actor.

 

And boy, have I gotten off topic.  Um, so, yeah, I agree that his death had the most impact on the group as a whole.

[AngelaHunter]

Back on topic, then!

 

Rick is freaking terrifying:

 

[NurseGiGi]

I've just noticed this season that Rick is just as filthy as Daryl.  And that beard is stank, you know it is.  There's gotta be dried Joe all up in there.

[Ellaria]

The group's only true enemy is itself. And if they ever want to have a formidable villain again I think it has to come from

the group.

[AngelaHunter]

Yes, filthy and stanky - beard, clothes, hair, but who would be afraid of Se01 Rick?