S03.E06: Guilty

[opus]

A mite predictable at the end. 8:40 commercial break I said, well, 2 more segments . First we wrap up the Ted story, then we clear Roy regarding Sara. And thus it was.

[somewhereother]

So after a brief reprieve last week this does feel a bit like season 2b to me. Lots of things happening and not much making sense from a character perspective. Though to be fair, last week was all over the shop in regards to plot, but I still felt connected to the characters.

 

Good Things

• Oliver sticking by Roy, but as others have noted - pity that meant the rest of the team had to act out of character. 
• Ted was better than I thought he would be, yay for exceeding my very low expectations
• The Stegosaurus comment 
• the boxing glove arrow - that is the kind of nod that works for me on this show.

 

Not so Good Things

Laurel's arc, I feel like they are trying to address all the complaints, but by referencing them rather than working on the character. So much lamp shading and mostly at Laurel's expense.

• you don't want insta-canary - here have a slow progression of inept, unstable canary
• you don't think she has enough training - have lots of screen time with Ted Grant an ex-vigilante that brings out the hypocrite in Oliver
• you don't think she has gone through enough - have a throwaway line about sobriety and a reminder each week that she is ANGRY about Sara's death
• you don't want her on team arrow - have the character herself and felicity call her on it

 

WTF Things

• If Diggle thought that Roy killed Sara under some effect of Mirikuru and still argued he should face justice, why not when he killed the cop?

[apinknightmare]

I think all of the OOC stuff was intentional. Make the other characters dumb or assholes, so Laurel looks better by default. They did it near the end of last season too, remember? All of the characterizations will go back to normal in episodes that don't exist to prop her up.

 

But the OOC behavior didn't even have anything to do with Laurel - it was part of Roy's storyline. None of that made Laurel look good because she wasn't involved in any of it.

[Lila82]

This episode made me really like Laurel and I'm not even ashamed to admit it.  There are flaws with her character, still, but I'm glad she finally stood up to all those boys telling her what to do and feel.   Oliver's manpain does give him the right to be a vigilante, but it doesn't give him the right to decide who else can start a crusade.  Laurel has made it clear that she'll work with him or independently, and the more he pushed back, the more she planned accordingly.

 

Awesome!

 

She wants to avenge Sara?  Her prerogative.  She asked Oliver for help, he said no, and she made other arrangements.  She's training on her own. She's realizing the flaws in her plan and making the appropriate changes.  Oliver's quest started out on a steep learning curve; Laurel deserves one too.

 

It boils down to this: if Starling City is ground zero for vigilantes, Laurel deserves to become one if it's what she wants.

 

That said, I would have LOVED watching Roy turn himself into the Starling PD for a killing a woman whose father STILL doesn't know that she's dead.  Dammit, Laurel.

 

Also? I loved everything about Roy's storyline this week.  Yes, it was heavy-handed and idiotic that Oliver wouldn't know about vigilante that existed before him, but the final scenes between R/O were really lovely.  I adore his steadfast belief in Oliver.  He never felt abandoned even when he thought he committed the greatest of betrayals.    

 

Diggle was totally OOC. And so was Felicity. I can't buy her just letting Roy think he killed Sara like that. She'd be busting her ass trying to figure things out instead of going "Yeah, it all sounds incriminating so dude definitely did it." I can't even think about Dig because it's giving me a headache. No way he would have said what the writers had him say. Just no!

 

 

Both characters were horrible, as was the lack of continuity between episodes.  Last week was emotion and backstory heavy; there should have been at least a throwaway line about Felicity's mom.   I don't understand the writing choices.  Diggle and Felicity could have been in character and furthered the storyline.  Laurel's the heavy when it comes to Sara's death; she would have lashed out no matter how much D/F supported Roy.

 

ETA:

 

While she wasn't at work, I think Felicity wore something that was in the ballpark of work appropriate.  Maybe she's learning?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Lila82

[apinknightmare]

This episode made me really like Laurel and I'm not even ashamed to admit it.  There are flaws with her character, still, but I'm glad she finally stood up to all those boys telling her what to do and feel.  

 

She's always done that though. She's headstrong, it's one of the few of Laurel's qualities the writers of this show are actually consistent with.

Edited November 13, 2014 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, Diggle's lines about Roy didn't make sense. I could see them coming from Laurel, but Diggle?? The whole "we can't have two sets of rules" after Oliver spent all of season one killing people, but he wanted to send Roy to the dogs when he might have done something out of his control?

Technically Felicity never condemned Roy as a certainty, she didn't even want him to say anything. Still...

Laurel has been only training for two weeks. Makes that photo I saw that much more painful. Also, Just what did Laurel contribute during the time the guy was holding a gun to her head? She did what she needed to do? What? Crash the car? Seriously though, I was yelling at the screen for Laurel to drive away faster when the bad guy fell out of the car (cause he opened the door?? huh?) and then suddenly she loses control, crashes to the point of knocking herself out and the engine catching on fire ( again, no airbags, sigh).

Ramirez was not bad, a little bland but miles better than anything we've seen before. Laurel is her usual warm and fuzzy self. Dear Lord, i do not like this woman. She makes everything soo unpleasant. Is there ever any acting choice that isn't turned up to eleven?

This was a very weird episode. The boxing glove thing was fine, the arrow swept up the boxing glove that was just sitting around the place. I like Roy enough so that I was glad to have Oliver be nice to him. The candle and breathing exercises were ridiculous. Inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale and poof! All better! I wish they'd at least pretended it took longer.

Oliver needs to stop saying get your head in the game. It's starting bug me. A lot.

[Lantern7]

Boxing glove arrow FTW. I laughed and cheered seeing that. I know, it's not feasible in actual practice, but dammit, it's a cute nod.

 

I liked the episode, probably because I didn't want Laurel to get smacked. And I didn't feel that she was being propped up to be more, though her interactions with Ted were inappropriate on a legal level. How can the DA have a conversation with her trainer when he's accused of murder?

 

Anybody else a little bummed that Ted didn't wear a wildcat suit at any time during the episode? I guess I'm a fan of the timeless palooka of the JSA.

 

At least Roy got closure about Sara. Of course, now he has to think about having killed an officer, but I'm sure that'll be hand-waved away. And I don't think Cupid did it. Who isn't into archery these days? Every Tom, Dick and Katniss is picking up a bow.

[statsgirl]

I give Laurel points for calling Felicity on the phone, knowing she is the person who can track where they are.  Did Oliver and Diggle transport to get there so fast?

 

On the other hand, Oliver super stupid that Grant would kill a guy and hang him in his own gym.

Really, Diggle?  What, did you think Ollie was just going to go get smores and let Laurel burn?  It's like the writers think the audience is that dumb.

Yes, I think they do.  While I didn't like The Promise, at least it wasn't boring.

 

 

The candle and breathing exercises were ridiculous. Inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale and poof! All better! I wish they'd at least pretended it took longer.

LOL yes.  Although I will say that the ten minutes of a real hypnotic induction would be pretty boring TV, just like if we saw Felicity hacking in real time.

 

Oliver realizing that Roy was remembering killing the cop and not because he killed Sara was ridiculous. How could Oliver be so sure? 

[apinknightmare]

On the other hand, Oliver super stupid that Grant would kill a guy and hang him in his own gym.

 

They're all terrible investigators this season; they're the last people who should be trying to find Sara's killer.

[thuganomics85]

 

They're all terrible investigators this season; they're the last people who should be trying to find Sara's killer.

At this rate, you know who might should get a crack at it?  The police.  Of course, that would require them to tell Quentin, which ain't ever happening.

 

Then again, the police force hasn't been impressive yet, so maybe not.  Hey, I know!  Get Joe West from The Flash on this!  He has a working brain!

[statsgirl]

They're all terrible investigators this season; they're the last people who should be trying to find Sara's killer.

True.  But Laurel has guaranteed that it's no one else can because no one else knows..

 

At least now she's letting Team Arrow help.  I guess I should also give her points for not demanding Roy go to jail immediately... except she can't do that because she didn't tell her father Sara's dead.

[ban1o]

Another reason why I liked this episode was because I thought the performances were  strong from Stephen and even from Katie. Even Colton did decent and I liked that the plot was focused and wasn't all over the place. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by ban1o

[bluemapleleaf]

One thing that had me screaming at the tv, was Roy announcing his intention to confess to the police about 'murdering' Sara.

He'd be confessing to a murder no one knew had been committed, with no body and no evidence.

I mean I guess yay Roy for wanting to do the right thing but oy.

[manbearpig]

Laurel has been only training for two weeks. Makes that photo I saw that much more painful. Also, Just what did Laurel contribute during the time the guy was holding a gun to her head? She did what she needed to do? What? Crash the car? Seriously though, I was yelling at the screen for Laurel to drive away faster when the bad guy fell out of the car (cause he opened the door?? huh?) and then suddenly she loses control, crashes to the point of knocking herself out and the engine catching on fire ( again, no airbags, sigh).

 

She realised that she needed to call for help, and she got the guy out of the car. It is unfortunate that she ended up losing control of the car pretty much immediately after that point, but then, it was a dangerous situation.

[foreverevolving]

The Good, the Ugly and the Weird...

 

except besides the Boxing Arrow, the Arsenal naming, and Cupid (who i repeat looks deliciously unhinged) not much about the episode thrilled me, and i'm not a comic book reader.

Oh and I liked Oliver telling Ted that his mistake was cutting his sidekick loose, and Oliver reassuring Roy that he will never do it. I really like mentor Oliver.

 

FYI give an actor/ess anyone else to act with than KC on this show and they become tenfold better. I really liked Ted this episode, I thought his scenes with Lance and Oliver were much better than any scenes he had with her. I mean I won't nominate him for an Emmy anytime soon, but he was good enough that i wasn't taken out of the scenes.

 

Also, I really like the kid from the flashbacks. he's all sorts of funny in a snarky way- which is the best kind of funny.

Dear show, if at any point Ollie has sex with Katana I will have to hurt you. We saw a glimpse of the future tonight. she was badass mean in that last scene.

FYI flashbacks: i wonder who Li Kuan Hui is, I couldn't find any mentions of a DC character with that name. I wonder if it is an anagram? i'll have to play with it, but not tonight (i have two papers due tomorrow + a quiz to study for and i have 12 hours. thank god for coffee)

 

the ugly:

As past has shown, when the show focuses on Fakanary EVERYONE!! turns stupid and pod people.

 

Also: I want my Diggy back!!!! *said in a little kiddy voice* and I want my smart Felicity too. I'm starting to fanwank that someone is drugging diggle.. it has to be, right?

 

 

the Weird: While i will never, EVER, love Fakanary, she was actually okay. i mean so much better than previous episodes. Can't decide if she really has gotten better, i'm holding back the laugh, or (after today pictures) i have returned to the point of not really caring about her.

 

and yes, bless Amell the man is trying to infuse something into his scenes with KC. the guy is aware of the lack of chemistry and is working hard at it. if only is co star would be kind enough to take acting lessons and learn how to act we can all be happy.

 

 

I kind of look forward to next week. mostly because i love crazy ass unhinged villains. Cupid look like a delicious one.

 

 

ETA: I think Ted is a pretty clever guy. In my head he already suspects Oliver is the Arrow, and if he didn't Laurel stupid "We used to date" will inch him closer.

Also, Oliver line about [my job] is bigger than yours or something like that.... ummm Oliver sweetie- you don't have a day job, remember? Ray Palmer has it now.

Edited November 13, 2014 by foreverevolving

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oliver needs to stop saying get your head in the game. It's starting bug me. A lot.

 

Oh God, me too! I hated it when he used it on Felicity last week and I hated it even more now, especially because later he tells Laurel it's not a freakin' game.

[El Seed]

Then again, the police force hasn't been impressive yet, so maybe not. Hey, I know! Get Joe West from The Flash on this! He has a working brain!

 

 

I've wanted a Quentin Lance and Joe West team up for quite awhile now, and finding Sara's killer would be perfect for their no-fucks-given tour de force. Make it happen, EPs!

[Shanna]

Oliver needs to stop saying get your head in the game. It's starting bug me. A lot.

I started singing some song from high school musical after that. Probably not what they were going for !

[steelyis]

Diggle tells Oliver to cut Roy loose, and I question if Diggle's been taken over by a pod person.

 

That was odd, but it didn't bother me that much because as proven by Diggle listening to Felicity over Roy when she said Roy couldn't go on patrol, Dig and Roy don't have a close relationship. It seems to be a working relationship without the bond Dig has with Oliver and Felicity. It's no one's fault, Diggle and Roy will have to develop that over time.

 

Laurel flat out telling Ted she used to date the Arrow massively compromises Oliver's identity. Especially when one of those exes was already publicly suspected of being the vigilante in the past.  How could she be so careless?

 

These writers always give me new reasons to hate her.

 

Yeah, that was stupid, but then the whole episode was fairly inept. Almost nothing about it made sense. The thing that pissed me right off is Roy confessing to murder because he had a dream and evidence so circumstantial it wouldn't have got past an arraignment. A first year law student would have gotten Roy off, which makes me side-eye Laurel who should know better.

 

One thing that had me screaming at the tv, was Roy announcing his intention to confess to the police about 'murdering' Sara.

He'd be confessing to a murder no one knew had been committed, with no body and no evidence.

I mean I guess yay Roy for wanting to do the right thing but oy.

 

Thank You! And you know what might have helped save everyone a lot of time, doubt, and pain? A real fucking autopsy!

[thuganomics85]

 

 

One thing that had me screaming at the tv, was Roy announcing his intention to confess to the police about 'murdering' Sara.

He'd be confessing to a murder no one knew had been committed, with no body and no evidence.

I mean I guess yay Roy for wanting to do the right thing but oy.

Admittedly though, I bet his answer to the cops about what he did with the body would be great.

 

"Where's the body?  Funny story!  You see, she was thought to have been dead years ago, so we, I mean I, figured that, hey, that graveside and tombstone are already there, so I might as well use it!"

[wingster55]

I started singing some song from high school musical after that. Probably not what they were going for !

Thank god it wasn't just me. 

[Actionmage]

Anybody else a little bummed that Ted didn't wear a wildcat suit at any time during the episode? I guess I'm a fan of the timeless palooka of the JSA.

 

::waves hand proudly:: Infinity, Inc. as well!

 

I've wanted a Quentin Lance and Joe West team up for quite awhile now, and finding Sara's killer would be perfect for their no-fucks-given tour de force. Make it happen, EPs!

 

Good! We'll find a table and wait for the EPs to actually be awesome?

 

Also, Oliver line about [my job] is bigger than yours or something like that....

 

The line was about lairs; that Ollie's space is bigger than Ted's. Because he's mature like that. *g*

[benteen]

Oh, I forgot to mention the thing that I hated the most...Oliver raising a fuss over Ted having killed someone.  It was a disgusting piece of hypocrisy on Oliver's part, even worse than usual.  This was a guy who had at least 27 confirmed kills late in the first season of the show, killing crooks at times because they wouldn't listen to him.  He doesn't have the right to take the high ground when he learns another vigilante has killed someone, past or present.  Handing over a vigilante for murder (which I know he didn't do tonight) would be just as hypocritical. 

 

As pointed out, someone who is breaking the law by being a vigilante doesn't have the right to tell others not to be vigilantes.

::waves hand proudly:: Infinity, Inc. as well!

 

Good! We'll find a table and wait for the EPs to actually be awesome?

 

The line was about lairs; that Ollie's space is bigger than Ted's. Because he's mature like that. *g*

 

Quentin and Joe teaming up on a case would be a lot of fun, although Joe shares a little more in common with Laurel when it comes to wanting to keep stupid secrets that do no good in the long run.

[dtissagirl]

The preview clip was right: Felicity's lipstick is indeed very very pretty.

[Pete Martell]

It doesn't bother me. I actually thought Oliver having and expressing faith in Roy was sweet. But every time I watch them, I wonder if I missed a whole chunk of episodes last season where they bonded. All I remember is Roy being all "Hulk smash" and pissy with Oliver. And now they act like Roy is Oliver's little brother. It feels a little superficial to me.

 

Oliver and Roy were so close in the comics in the Silver Age (don't really know about more recent years), I think that there was some expectation among some fans of that era that when Roy came on the show, he and Oliver would be close. That never really happened, and instead Roy mostly seemed superfluous for well over a season. I guess they're trying to make up for lost time now, but it seems forced. These characters bear no resemblance to the comics characters, and considering that characters like Felicity weren't in the comics but are popular with a lot of fans, maybe the show should take this as a sign to just give up the ghost and not bother with a forced Oliver/Roy relationship.

[benteen]

Oliver and Roy were so close in the comics in the Silver Age (don't really know about more recent years), I think that there was some expectation among some fans of that era that when Roy came on the show, he and Oliver would be close. That never really happened, and instead Roy mostly seemed superfluous for well over a season. I guess they're trying to make up for lost time now, but it seems forced. These characters bear no resemblance to the comics characters, and considering that characters like Felicity weren't in the comics but are popular with a lot of fans, maybe the show should take this as a sign to just give up the ghost and not bother with a forced Oliver/Roy relationship.

It looks like they're attempting now to focus more on the Oliver and Roy relationship.  Although before this season their was nothing to suggest they even so much as liked each other.  It's too guys working together, nothing more.

[steelyis]

Oh, I forgot to mention the thing that I hated the most...Oliver raising a fuss over Ted having killed someone.  It was a disgusting piece of hypocrisy on Oliver's part, even worse than usual.  This was a guy who had at least 27 confirmed kills late in the first season of the show, killing crooks at times because they wouldn't listen to him.  He doesn't have the right to take the high ground when he learns another vigilante has killed someone, past or present.  Handing over a vigilante for murder (which I know he didn't do tonight) would be just as hypocritical. 

 

As pointed out, someone who is breaking the law by being a vigilante doesn't have the right to tell others not to be vigilantes.

 

Right? No one bringing up Oliver's body count calls even more attention to it, so I don't know what the writers were thinking having Oliver ride his high horse about Wildcat's whopping one murder victim. It was strange. No, fuck it, the whole episode was bizarre as hell. The only two characters that acted like they had brains was Captain Lance and Felicity--and Felicity only barely managed to rub two two brain cells together that's how screwed up everyone was this episode.

[fantique]

I'm confused, that was weird... Maybe sleeping on it will help me figure out how I feel about this episode. See you tomorrow.

[catrox14]

Gods I hated this episode so much. It was terrible. The writing was awful. The pacing was terrible.

Fuck you show for having Oliver carry Laurel from a burning wreck just like he did Felicity.

Fuck you, show, for having Oliver basically apologize for being right about Laurel and her being unqualified to be a vigilante.

Where was Oliver's meditation when he was Mr. PTSD in s1?

I call complete bullshit on Diggle telling Oliver to dump Roy.

So Laurel suddenly isn't afraid of anything? Gods she really is stupid. Bravery isn't being unafraid,. It's being afraid and doing it anyway and not being stupid.

What a cluster fuck of an episode.

OH and Laurel telling Ted she used to date the Arrow is the single most idiotic thing this show has done. And that Oliver stood by and didn't read her the riot act for essentially narrowing down the choices of who the arrow is to Oliver, Tommy, Blood and the DA.....

/head desk head desk head desk

Edited November 13, 2014 by catrox14

[MsSchadenfreude]

Well hello Hypocrite Oliver!  Haven't seen you for awhile.  Ted, you killed a drug dealer, you're evil.  I, on the other hand have lost count of how many people I've killed, and I'm a hero.

 

Hey Quentin, guess what…SARA IS DEAD!!!!!!!  Sorry for shouting, but this is just ridiculous now.

 

I love that Maseo's wife has no time for Oliver.  She looks like she wants to stab him through the heart every time she sees him.  Then again with that creepy hair, I would have no time for him either.  

 

Man, Hong Kong Oliver is a whiny little shit. So much so, that I loved China White's courier kicking him in the face. :)

 

The boxing glove arrow worked in this instance, but now that I've seen it, no need to see it make a return appearance.

 

Roy/Oliver were good tonight.

Edited November 13, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[statsgirl]

But the OOC behavior didn't even have anything to do with Laurel - it was part of Roy's storyline. None of that made Laurel look good because she wasn't involved in any of it.

 

I wonder how they would have handled Roy's storyline if it had been the 'A' story and had more time to be told, rather than the 'B'.  There was so much talk last week about did Roy really kill Sara, and in the end they shrunk it into a Laurel episode.

 

I read a number of complaints that last week's villain was too boring. Obviously they hadn't seen this episode yet.

The line was about lairs; that Ollie's space is bigger than Ted's. Because he's mature like that. *g*

I know they were talking about lairs, but seeing the line printed is giving me the suggestion they're really talking about something else.

 

 

So Laurel suddenly isn't afraid of anything? Gods she really is stupid. Bravery isn't being unafraid,. It's being afraid and doing it anyway and not being stupid.

Or what Felicity does.

Edited November 13, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I know they were talking about lairs, but seeing the line printed is giving me the suggestion they're really talking about something else.

 

Salmon ladders?

[Actionmage]

I know they were talking about lairs, but seeing the line printed is giving me the suggestion they're really talking about something else.

 

Love of industrial decoration and furnishings!  Of course Oliver's love is bigger. *g*

[Chaser]

I love that they assume the audience can't read and give everyone the same contact photo. I wonder how that conversation between Oliver and Laurel went:

 

"Hey Ollie, I need Felicity's number and forward me your photo of her too okay?" 

[Carrie Ann]

Question: did Felicity imply that whoever did kill Sara was probably short? I didn't understand exactly what she was saying about the angle being not what you would expect from a typical bow or archer, but I thought that's what she meant. So: a) sick burn on Roy being pint-sized, and b) it was a woman, for sure, right?

 

Wow, what a terrible episode, otherwise. I need them to quit writing John Diggle like this, just so that Oliver can have someone to argue against. And Felicity absolutely would have come to the same conclusion Oliver did, and wouldn't have been so quick to let Roy or anyone else believe that he'd killed Sara. Bad form, Show.

 

And Laurel, well. I can't even get into it, honestly. The amount of blame and condescension and general assholery she throws around, while being wrong at every step, and the only person responsible for her current situation...it's astounding, really. Your heroine, ladies and gentlemen. Your leading lady. Your True Black Canary.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Lady Calypso]

I wonder how they would have handled Roy's storyline if it had been the 'A' story and had more time to be told, rather than the 'B'.  There was so much talk last week about did Roy really kill Sara, and in the end they shrunk it into a Laurel episode.

 

 

Honestly, I would actually have loved that. I love Roy this season, a lot more than I have the first two seasons, and even this episode, I found him to be my overall favourite. This episode was bad all around, though. I did love the arrow boxing glove, and I liked Roy showing his guilt, but everyone else was just too OOC or just plain mean. I'll admit Laurel had her good moments. I get they're showing her on the long path to being as good as her sister (after all, it didn't take her overnight to become the Black Canary) but I'm not interested in her journey. Like, at all. I applaud them for making her to be severely incompetent, but that's about it. Oliver seems to turn into a dick mostly around Laurel. Eh, actually he's usually a dick, but it seems to worsen around Laurel. Diggle was OOC in telling Oliver to drop Roy (as if Diggle really cared about Sara?? At least on a deeper level than we've seen?). Not to mention Felicity not telling Roy about what happened with the cop and actually believing that Roy would do something like this? How has Felicity not constantly tested Roy since the Mirakuru incident, anyway? That's the oddest thing of all for me!

 

I just....I can't even with this episode. It wasn't just boring, it was just bad. Everyone was awful, except for Roy. Ted was a little better, sure, but I'm not sure I should go back and actually watch his scenes not just with Laurel, but with The Arrow.

 

Oh, and that reminds me of the priceless look on Oliver's face when Laurel told Ted that her and the Arrow used to date. It was pretty much a 'are you kidding me? Not even Roy has spilled a major hint about my secret identity like that! This is why I don't take you anywhere'. Sure, Laurel not being on Team Arrow right now is good, since Oliver's being a dick in trying to control her. But let's face it, Oliver's picked out some pretty good people to be on his team. Laurel's clearly not good enough to be considered. 

 

Yeah, that's all I can say about the episode. 

[Lantern7]

I forgot about the "Arsenal" line. That was also amusing. Not as much as the boxing glove arrow, but it was a cute in-joke.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I forgot about this scene but it totally made me go, "Oh! He's back invading her personal space." LOL! Seriously, Oliver didn't need to stand that close to Felicity. It's not like he needed to keep the conversation hush-hush.

 

[mybabyaidan]

I saw Cupid in 2 scenes tonight (I think).  She was outside the gym, and then when Diggle pulls into the parking lot when Ollie and Ted are inside with the "bad guy" she walks across the parking lot.  Unless I was hallucinating.

 

Is she supposed to be cheesy?  I have no knowledge of comic lore here ..... "I'm Cupid..Stupid."   really?

[NumberCruncher]

One thing I noticed about this episode--it dragged--which I guess I shouldn't be complaining about considering the break-neck speed at which everything has been paced this season. Still I must have looked at the clock a dozen times. Definitely the slowest episode this season.

I seriously despise how they wrote Diggle in this episode. I agree with others who have already said his arguing with Oliver was contrived to create artificial drama. I'm just sad at how they're treating his character this season. They're doing an okay job giving Diggle things to do on missions, but a lot of the action that Diggle saw in S1 and S2 has now been allocated to Roy, leaving Diggle to the important things like...driving the van. *eyeroll*

Unlike others, I didn't really think Felicity was OOC. In fact, I really liked her scenes with Roy in the lair.

Oliver has always been a big old hypocrite when it comes to vigilantism but they really made him downright douchey about it here. Frankly I was glad Laurel shoved it right back in his face because while he's not wrong that she has been biting off more than she can chew, he also has been a controlling jerk about it. Surprisingly, I didn't even mind their scene in the hospital at the end. They still have zero romantic chemistry but I thought the exchange was nice and long overdue after being at each other's throats for the the past 4 episodes.

I didn't mind the Oliver/Roy interaction. I know a lot of people felt it has been forced, but considering Oliver has essentially been mentoring him in varying degrees since the middle of last season, there had to be a moment where Oliver finally achieved the fruits of his labor in having Roy assume his comic persona as Arsenal. What I didn't like was it resulted in some of the cheesiest dialogue the show has ever produced.

I'm still not dazzled by Ted Grant. I feel like the only reason he was brought in was to train Laurel rather than to be a developed character.

Based on the preview, I'm really excited for next week. I'm ready for a good, old-fashioned psycho villain.

Edited November 13, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Artsda]

So Roy didn't kill Sara, the evidence/autopsy was wrong and he had it confused with a different memory? I was confused as to what was going on there. There should have been more of making that sense and Roy and less all the Laurel.

 

They have to want us to hate her with the bitchy lines like telling the random newbie that she used to date Oliver. She has no care at all about keeping his identity a secret and then with the attitude over him not training her. 

 

I kind of missed Ray this episode. I really missed Thea.

[La Dee Da]

Question: did Felicity imply that whoever did kill Sara was probably short? I didn't understand exactly what she was saying about the angle being not what you would expect from a typical bow or archer, but I thought that's what she meant. So: a) sick burn on Roy being pint-sized, and b) it was a woman, for sure, right?

 

 

I think she also said stronger as well as shorter, but I'm not going to rewatch this episode to find out!  I agree we're supposed to be moving to the "it's a woman" section of our suspect list ... just in time for Cupid to show up/Law and Order chung chung sound/.

 

I found the episode a little disjointed - the evil sidekick angle could have been better integrated into the plot, both to give the reveal more punch and to make Oliver's choice whether to let Roy go more of a struggle. 

 

I did  laugh at the flashbacks, including Oliver being made and dropped kicked in the Hong Kong flashback - I'm not an international mercenary, but I too would be suspicious of a tall and scruffy blond man following me.

[quarks]

Most boring episode of the show so far, and that wasn't the end of the problems:

 

Good things:

 

1. The boxing glove arrow. Totally unexpected and unexpectedly hilarious: this week's episode highlight.

 

2. Thank you, Ted Grant, for pointing out to Oliver that no, he doesn't get to control Laurel's life. You bore me, Ted, but that was a good point.

 

3. I am amused that everyone's default option is "call Felicity" (unless you are Ray, in which case it's "walk into Felicity's apartment.")

 

4. The Hong Kong scenes have not been favorites of mine this season, what with constantly reminding me that Amanda Waller is still on this show, but I liked this one, mostly for teaching Oliver another potential approach. I am kinda questioning why Oliver doesn't meditate more, but this does help explain how he has fine tuned his awareness of his surroundings.

 

5. Yay, Roy is Arsenal now!  I was in general ok with the storyline, even if it was a bit predictable: I think it would have worked just fine had it been attached to another  A plot. Speaking of which:

 

Bad things:

 

1. I'm enjoying this season more than many of you, but one unquestioned weak spot of the season is the villains of the week. This one was no exception: by the time we ended the episode, I didn't know his name or his motivation or why he was making Laurel drive round and round, not because the show didn't mention this stuff, but because he was such a non entity on the screen I couldn't bring myself to care. I couldn't even bring myself to care about Cupid shooting him. I don't think it helped that his victims, for the most part, didn't seem particularly sympathetic (not to say that they deserved to die or anything) or that he didn't seem batshit crazy despite apparently running around and killing people, or that the show spent exactly no time worried about the victims and all of the time worried about Laurel, Ray and Ted. I'm not saying that Ted Grant getting wrongfully accused of murder was a good thing, but there was very little urgency in that, either - Ted got accused, Laurel sorta got him off, Ted got accused, Laurel got him out again, Ted was kidnapped - with no suspense to any of this. 

 

The overall issue is that although it's ok, more than ok, to have the occasional more or less "normal" villain of the week, this is a show that in general, has over the top villains - so the "normal" villain needs to stand out in some way. And given just how many people on this show have been serial killers at one point or another, that alone doesn't do it. Especially in contrast to the previous serial killer episodes in the first and second seasons, where either Quentin or Laurel or Team Arrow or two of the three were panicking that other victim might die soon.  Here? Total "hey, people are dying, but WHATEVERS. Should Laurel train with this dude?"

 

2. Least favorite moment: Diggle arguing that Roy had to be removed from the team for possibly killing Sara. One, it was very clear that Roy had been under the influence and not responsible for his actions. Two, yes, Sara was a teammate/former teammate, and not a random goon, but Diggle, you signed up with Oliver when Oliver was still a serial killer. And more than that, a serial killer who knew damn well what he was doing. I realize that the entire scene was meant to showcase that Oliver is maturing and all that and will be loyal to his teammates, but....it really, really felt off and wrong.  I don't expect Diggle to be right all the time. I do expect Diggle to be consistent.

 

3. Second least favorite moment: Show, I'm not kidding here when I say that if you want us to be invested in figuring out Who Killed Sara, you have to give us clues, and not, for instance, drop in "ooh, the arrows had a weird trajectory" clue several episodes later after suspects have already been eliminated. Go read some Agatha Christie stuff.

 

4. Third least favorite moment: Felicity not stopping Roy from confessing to Sara's murder in front of Laurel - first, because a serial killer was on the loose (I think he was a serial killer? That was all rather boring) and that needed to be the focus; second, because if this turned out to be wrong (and it did) that was horribly cruel to Laurel, who has now been told about three potential killers and yet not gotten any closure/justice, and Felicity's not cruel; and third, because as Felicity herself said, the forensic stuff was just indications, not proof. It wasn't nearly as much out of character as the Diggle moment, but it wasn't a highlight either.

 

5.  Hello, show. You have, at your command, Willa Holland, John freaking Barrowman, and even, and I am surprised at myself for typing this, Brandon Routh at your command (more or less) and you abandon them to focus on Cassidy, Haynes, Ramirez and whoever the very boring villain was?

 

Questionable stuff:

 

1. This is a minor point, but given that this week's Flash name checked Arrow a couple times, I was somewhat surprised that Felicity didn't name drop Caitlin, given that Caitlin was the one who came up with a Mirakuru cure.  Even a "I had Caitlin check my computer analysis." Or something.

 

2. Do none of the cars on this show have airbags?

 

3. I've said before that I don't expect gender equality from Arrow and I'm usually ok with it. That said....three men having to go out and rescue Laurel again while Felicity stayed back in the Arrow Cave felt....off.

 

And speaking of Laurel....Laurel!

 

I agree that in general this was a decent episode for her, arguably one of her best since the first season, and certainly a major improvement over the hell that was last week's episode for her.  I even found myself cheering her on against Oliver in a couple of scenes.  (Then again, Oliver's scenes with Laurel do seem to bring out his worst side, don't they?)

 

Which makes it all the more astounding that even in an episode meant to help establish Laurel as a hero and focus on her hero's journey, Laurel still managed to fail, to lengths I would consider jaw dropping if we were not talking about a character who has already failed so much. I mean --

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a lawyer,  four: 1. Unable to get either the cops or Oliver to accept the alibi she's providing for Ted even though she is the ADA, 2, questioning Ted in the police station without his attorney present, even though he is the chief suspect in a capital crime, 3, despite knowing that Ted has been framed for murder and that someone is out to get him, allowing him to leave the police station without police or other protection that she is perfectly capable of arranging, leading the guy to get kidnapped right outside the cop station, 4, airily announcing that she's buried the file on Ted, which, HELLO LAUREL, you are an ADA, 4, following that up with the announcement that she wants to learn how to be a vigilante, which, fine, but then, why are you still working for the DA?  (Show, please clear this up. I understand that on the DA's side, it's "we are the most incompetent group in the Arrow/Flash universe hands down so you know, Laurel fits right in," but why is Laurel staying there?  To pay her electric bill? To find targets? Enquiring minds kinda want to know.)

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, two: 1. Just standing there when the guy threatened Ted with a gun, like, Laurel, you are RIGHT OUTSIDE A COP STATION. I know the guy has a gun, but seriously, you are right outside of a cop station.  Looking back and forth at Ted and...uh, the guy as if they are having an odd argument about football, not the best response. 2, Laurel, I don't want to be mean. I really don't. Especially since I get that you've been kidnapped so much it must seem like second nature by now, but, you know, most people, after getting rescued from a kidnapping/car crash, say "thanks."

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante (new category), just three, but all are biggies: 1, telling Ted Grant that she and the Arrow used to date. Unless Laurel can later explain that she started dating the Arrow after Tommy died, she hasn't really dated that many people, so way to go on remembering the secret identity thing, Laurel; 2, getting kidnapped yet again, 3, after telling Oliver that she is not part of his Team, calling his Team to rescue her.

 

To be somewhat fair, yes, Felicity was also kidnapped and also called Oliver in for rescue in the previous episode. Felicity, however, was facing a lot more guns, a lot more people, a somewhat more competent villain, and was dealing with another kidnap victim who was completely untrained. And Felicity has stayed on Oliver's team despite getting constantly friendzoned.  Laurel was facing a single gun (which, granted, dangerous) but her fellow kidnap victim was a trained fighter and she had control of a car. (ETA: Also, Laurel, as she herself said, isn't on the team. End ETA.)  Also, with the exception of last week, Felicity generally only gets kidnapped while out on a mission. Laurel gets kidnapped all the time.

 

And not to dwell on that too much, but one of my genuine hopes for this season was that if we were, indeed, about to watch Laurel become Black Canary, at the very least this would, in theory, suggest that at least we would not have to deal with her getting kidnapped so much.

 

Alas.

 

But the main thing I got out of this episode is that although I still like Roy, he, Laurel and Ted Grant are not enough to hold an episode together - even when Laurel is having a particularly good episode. For her. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by quarks

[statsgirl]

Question: did Felicity imply that whoever did kill Sara was probably short? I didn't understand exactly what she was saying about the angle being not what you would expect from a typical bow or archer, but I thought that's what she meant. So: a) sick burn on Roy being pint-sized, and b) it was a woman, for sure, right?

 

She said that the angle of the arrows was strangely low but if he threw them (presumably from lower that a bow is held) it makes sense.  So she didn't rule him out forensically.

[Velocity23]

 

Still debating if i should watch the episode or not.

[foreverevolving]

I love it when Recap girl and I are on the same mind wave. 

 

[Ariah]

When binge watching a season, there are some episodes one would rewatch a few times...

 

This is not one of those episodes.

 

I liked several scenes, but on the whole the episode fell short, especially in comparison to the previous one.

 

Liked:

- Roy and Oliver, mostly.

- impro!boxing arrow

- Papa Lance being fed up with Laurel

- Katy Cassidy's acting at some points (I know, it's a shocker!)

- Cupid!

 

Disliked:

- the fact that Laurel thought everything is about her (but it's nothing new)

- the fact that most of the team acted OOC.

- the fact that Laurel thinks she did something against the kidnapper... Honey, you did no such thing! Watch this one good movie with Tom Cruise and Jamie Fox and see how to deal with an assilant in a car at full speed.

 

I wonder if Oliver's "I care about you" to Laurel will raise all of her "I love Ollie" flags.

[shrewd.buddha]

The candle and breathing exercises were ridiculous. Inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale and poof! All better! I wish they'd at least pretended it took longer.

 

Oh, to live in the world of Arrow : 

A) Slap water for a week and become a ninja.

B) Spend summer camp with your evil bio-Dad and become a ninja.

C) Spend 30 seconds looking at a candle and get powers of total recall.

D) Take boxing lessons for a couple of weeks and become a vigilante (much longer route!). 

 

I did like how Ted told Laurel to eat some protein right after her workout, because ....   "in a few weeks you are going to have to pretend that a 5-foot-8, 110 pound woman can actually beat up a 6-and-a-half foot,  250 pound man with MMA training."  (I may have misquoted)

[Shanna]

4. Third least favorite moment: Felicity not stopping Roy from confessing to Sara's murder in front of Laurel - first, because a serial killer was on the loose (I think he was a serial killer? That was all rather boring) and that needed to be the focus; second, because if this turned out to be wrong (and it did) that was horribly cruel to Laurel, who has now been told about three potential killers and yet not gotten any closure/justice, and Felicity's not cruel; and third, because as Felicity herself said, the forensic stuff was just indications, not proof. er.

I don't understand how felicity is at fault for what Roy said to laurel, she tried to tell him not to. He is the one who blurted it out - was she supposed to tackle him?

I agree with many that the pacing of who killed Sara is off. It is so obvious and boring the way they are stringing it out and I don't really care because the writers killed Sara so laurel could be black canary and that is all that matters.

If my show turns into this show I watched last night, I can't see sticking around. I agree with people who mentioned the utter lack of urgency with everything in this episode relating to the villain - the victims were unsympathetic so there was non urgency there, and then Ted knew who the guy was so there was no mystery, and then laurel was so nonchalant about getting kidnapped when it seems like she and Ted might should have just kicked that guys ass before they got in the car because he didn't seem all that competent instead of calling for help and running into Diggles van (that is what happened right?). This is the person who is supposed to be turning into a bad ass???

Also, I don't think it is controlling of Oliver to refuse to train her, and if she is going to be calling them to bail her out when anything happens I am not thinking he is controlling to try to tell her not to train because he knows it's to become a vigilante not a workout. I am sure he knows she will be calling him and feleciity and ordering them to drop everything and google somebody's phone or save her from her own stupidity.

[insubordination]

 

Still debating if i should watch the episode or not.

 

This is the first episode of Arrow I haven't watched. From reading this thread, I'm glad I saved myself the frustration. I'm definitely tuning in next week, but I'm looking to wean myself off like many have this season.  They're making it easy for me.

 

I don't want to see Pod Diggle, controlling Oliver and the rest of the motley crew.