S29.E08: Wrinkle In The Plan

[NurseGiGi]

I never understood the original Keith love but then I'm from the south and have met a lot of Keiths in my time.  Keith is a walking, talking stereotype who thinks women are definitely second class citizens and should be content to cook, clean and do the laundry and I think he was accurately portrayed this episode.  I've been wondering if he's smart enough to know when to use the idol or if he'll go home with it in his pocket.  Keith is a hick.  Actually, around here, we would refer to him as a redneck.

[NurseGiGi]

"Alec is from Winter Park Florida. I had an ex from there and from his beliefs it sounded like any town in the south."

 

Actually, Alec's behavior and attitude can be found in any town throughout the US.  It's not confined to the southern parts of the states.

Edited November 14, 2014 by NurseGiGi

[Rick Kitchen]

Or the only women who would date Alec are the type who do whatever they are told.

 

I wonder if Julie has a sister.

[SVNBob]

think if Keith was a smart and cunning player or hell even a merely good player, he would have whipped out that idol after the votes and given it to Josh.

All that would have done is given Josh a souvenir. The standard HII only works before the votes are read, which is stated in the instructions given with the idol. And while Keith may not be the best player, I do assume he's literate.

 

So once Jeff started in on reading the votes, it was too late for an Idol play.

[KimberStormer]

Well I thought it was a pretty good episode, for whatever that's worth.  Even though my pick in the Vote Now Brag Later thread has now gone to Ponderosa.  I think it's an interesting dynamic with two ostensible leaders, Jeremy and Josh, who don't actually do much, and two busy-bee swing votes, Jon and Jaclyn (this is the season of the J's), who are all over the game.  I like that pair, goofy as Jon is; Jaclyn is pretty great (wasn't she the one who was smugly ogled by Drew on Exile Island?) and I think they're both pretty smart as far as this season goes.  I mean, it's not a great episode, it's not a great season, it's mediocre Survivor, but I'm surprised to see a lot of people saying "ugh I give up on the season" after this one.

 

If Survivor were a scripted show I would call the Josh/Baylor scene a very nicely composed mirror image of the Missy/Julie scene.  (Maybe I should give some credit to the editors for once.)  You could write a compare/contrast paper on them for your freshman year high school English class.

 

Is there a vegetarian in the cast?  For the first time, I heard Jeff mention a vegetarian option in the food reward.

 

I noticed that too.  I'm a vegetarian and I've always assumed that if Jeff Probst rode his jetski and parachuted into my back yard to invite me onto the show I would have to start eating meat again to be on, because even if you don't get HUGE MEAT FEAST rewards you at least want to be eating the crabs and fish and stuff, right?  But maybe someone is, I'd be interested in who.

 

I'm still baffled by all the Baylor hate but I have decided she's like Danielle DiLorenzo: there is nothing actually wrong with her but people just hate her and she can never win.  (One reason I love Shane: he voted for Danielle.)  I would sort of love it if she made it to the end, though, with all the votes she's recieved.  Sort of a Denise kind of item on your FTC resume--"I survived 1 billion votes against me to make it here!"

[Richness]

So long, Josh. I wasn't really rooting for him, especially with his trying to guilt trip Baylor with that over-inflated "save" angle, but I was hoping he'd outlast Jeremy. I still haven't forgiven Jeremy for his overly protective and dramatic macho man routine toward his physically capable wife, and for turning on Rocker when Rocket couldn't save Val for getting herself voted out with that stupid double HII lie. He also has a few other mannerisms and ticks that grate on my nerves. I also hate that it was Kieth and Wes's lack of social graces and game play (OK, maybe more Keith's tirade against Baylor) and Alexc's chauvinistic attitude that got Josh booted than anything he did himself. Of course, it would have helped if Jeremy hadn't won immunity as well.

 

I too am wondering why everyone doesn't decide to align with each other to vote off the wishy-washy fence-setters. With that said, I genuinely like J&J. More so Jon for making fun of Kat's air-headed "won't be loves for not making the merge" lament. Just don't know enough about Reed yet to like or dislike him. And as much as I hate to admit it, the remaining Twinnie has been downright tolerable and almost likeable on her own. She's been relatively painless to watch once she got over her rant to vote out Rocker. Still don't want her to win though.

[Bryce Lynch]

I cannot comment on her relationship with Keith, Wes and Alec as I do not have an opinion. My opinion with regard to her relationship with her mother, however, is that she is spoiled, manipulative and entitled. In my opinion, she displayed those traits during the challenge in which they went up against each other. The tears, the pouty lips, the hesitation displayed the family dysfunctional dynamic for all to see. In fact, it spoke volumes to me. I am mother to three daughters, all much younger than Baylor, who have been taught to pursue their goals through strength and assertiveness instead of weakness and manipulation. Baylor plays Missy like a fiddle. There are other examples which have facilitated the formation of my opinion but, since it is not my intention to sway others to my belief, and I am typing on a very old tablet, I'll leave it at that. You are welcome to disagree.

Yes!

IIRC, when Baylor went up against her Mom, Missy head butted her in the face. Whether it was intentional or not, it seemed like the other contestants and Probst saw it as a cheap shot and seemed shocked by it. Even Missy seemed to feel guilty about it, which I think, combined with Baylor's anger, helped Baylor beat her.

[ProfCrash]

Baylor's body language and behavior screams entitled. They eye rolls, the pouts, the slouching when she is upset. If she doesn't want to get wood, tell Keith that. She is a grown adult. He is not her father and even if he was, she is a grown adult playing this game. She could tell Alec to stop being an ass. I understand that she has a reason for not doing so, why add a bigger target to her back, but if she is not going to say something then drop the pissy body language and just do it. Or go out and gather wood without being asked.

 

I don't like her relationship with her Mom. Baylor is old enough that she should have some independence from her Mom yet the tribes merge and Missy is telling Baylor what to do and Baylor pouts but accepts it. I had no problem with the woman who voted her Mom off of the first Blood Vs Water. I didn't think it was that bad a move or made her an awful person. Her Mom was screwing with her game and making it harder for her to win. This is a game for a million dollars, both players knew that, so cutting Mom loose was her best move and she did. She was playing the game. Baylor just does what people tells her, Mom with how to vote, Alec with doing his chores to his specification, and Keith in gathering wood.

 

She is not yet an adult because she does not take responsibility for herself and her own actions and she pouts when she follows other leads.

[truthaboutluv]

I don't dislike Baylor but I was thrown a little when Missy let her know she was who they were gunning for and then she tells her mom to go speak to Jon to secure his and Jaclyn's vote. It's like you're the one on the chopping block, why can't you go and plead your case to Jon yourself. I don't buy that it was because Jon and Missy were the ones originally in a tribe together because she'd been with Jon in the same tribe for at least 6 days after the tribal swap. Of course I'm guessing now Missy did all the talking then too.

 

I also thought it was particularly interesting that she and Missy brought up talking to Jon and not Jaclyn or Jon and Jaclyn. Seems to me that while Jaclyn was so offended by the rude jerks (rightfully so), the women probably don't see her as more than Jon's appendage either or see her as the one making the decisions. They just don't burp, spit and fart around her and make rude comments so it's not as obvious to her. Well it may work out for her in the end as they'll likely target Jon before her when they're ready to turn on them.

[Bryce Lynch]

Hatch won Season One walking around naked.  If after all of these seasons farting is too much for the women, I suggest we've regressed as a society.  

If having higher standards for decency and common courtesy is "regressing as a society", here's hoping our society "regresses" a whole lot more. 

 

I think some of people have odd ideas about what "feminism" (a term I don't believe there is a clear, accepted definition for) and chauvinism.

 

My idea of "feminism" is that society should not put artificial limitations on women.  If a woman can do it, without special allowances being made, she should be allowed to do it.  It should also mean that women who choose to embrace more traditional gender roles should be free to do that as well.

 

At the same time, we should acknowledge that there are differences between men and generally speaking (though there any many exceptions) men and women tend to enjoy and be offended by different things. Having differences doesn't mean one gender is "better" than the other, just different.  Men (in general) might enjoy fart and belching contests (though I don't) more than women, while women might enjoy shoe shopping a bit more. There is nothing wrong with that, and acknowledging it is not being "sexist" by being a "realist". 

 

I can't believe that people are "offended" by Jeremy showing RESPECT for women, by not carrying on like a fraternity animal and for wanting to protect his wife.  If ANYONE whether male or female, has a spouse who does not have a strong instinct to protect them, I feel sorry for that person.  Human beings naturally want to protect those they really love, regardless of how strong they know their loved ones are.    

[Bryce Lynch]

Baylor's body language and behavior screams entitled. They eye rolls, the pouts, the slouching when she is upset. If she doesn't want to get wood, tell Keith that. She is a grown adult. He is not her father and even if he was, she is a grown adult playing this game. She could tell Alec to stop being an ass. I understand that she has a reason for not doing so, why add a bigger target to her back, but if she is not going to say something then drop the pissy body language and just do it. Or go out and gather wood without being asked.

 

I don't like her relationship with her Mom. Baylor is old enough that she should have some independence from her Mom yet the tribes merge and Missy is telling Baylor what to do and Baylor pouts but accepts it. I had no problem with the woman who voted her Mom off of the first Blood Vs Water. I didn't think it was that bad a move or made her an awful person. Her Mom was screwing with her game and making it harder for her to win. This is a game for a million dollars, both players knew that, so cutting Mom loose was her best move and she did. She was playing the game. Baylor just does what people tells her, Mom with how to vote, Alec with doing his chores to his specification, and Keith in gathering wood.

 

She is not yet an adult because she does not take responsibility for herself and her own actions and she pouts when she follows other leads.

Just because Baylor (who is very young) has so far allowed her mother to take the lead, it doesn't mean she is an entitled, spoiled, immature child.  Also, I think Baylor was actually convinced that her mother's strategy was the best for them (and I agree).  Her issue was that, while she knew what she had to do, she didn't really have the heart to "let down" Josh.   Missy told her to be strong and do what she needed to do.  Within the alternate reality of Survivor, where lying, breaking promises and manipulating people is part of the game and not considered morally wrong, it was good parenting, IMHO. 

 

It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at this point, for any of the loved ones to go against one another.  It would be pretty stupid for Baylor to blindside her mother, for no other reason than to prove to the TV audience that she is "independent" of her. 

 

As for the work around camp, in the clips I saw Keith and especially Alec were very bossy and rude towards her. Most people don't respond at all well to that type of demand, especially when the person making the demand has no legitimate authority over them.  I tend to think that if Jeremy politely said, "Baylor, can you come help me gather some firewood?"  her reaction would have been different. 

[ProfCrash]

Yes, Keith and Alec were rude to her. We all saw it, she said it, and others there said it. Her response to them are immature. Exaggerated sighing? Shrugging shoulders? Pouting? "I guess I have to go gather wood". Keith and Alec target Baylor because they know she will do what they tell her. And she does, but, as my Dad would say when I was a teen, with an attitude.

 

A more mature individual would call them on their tone and their actions. Do you really think Natalie, Missy or Jaclyn would allow Alec or Keith to talk to them that way? No. They would tell them to shove it. Yes, Alec and Wes were Neanderthals around all of the women but the only person they boss around is Baylor.

 

Missy continually tells Baylor to get behind her and let her drive and Baylor's strongest case is that she feels bad about stabbing Josh in the back. Not why that alliance works better for them, not why they should work on a side alliance with Josh and Reed. But just a pout and a "But its hard" and then do what Mom says.

 

She has an attitude, her body language is easy to read, she does not speak up for herself, and pretty much everyone who has left the show has said negative things about her. My take is that she is an entitled brat who needs to grow up. That is not to say that she won't change over the next bunch of years. She probably will because she is young and she will have to change if she wants to advance in a career. But at this time, what I have seen and heard from everyone leaving the show tells me that she is not someone I would enjoy hanging out with.

[peachmangosteen]

I can't believe that people are "offended" by Jeremy showing RESPECT for women, by not carrying on like a fraternity animal and for wanting to protect his wife.  

 

I think it's just because some people (myself included) don't feel like Jeremy has shown respect for women. I guess he hasn't show the blatant disrespect that Drew, Keith, Alec, and John have, but he certainly isn't coming off like a feminist. 

 

Although, I've come to think Jeremy just kinda hates/doesn't respect anyone, not just the women.

[Misty79]

I think it's just because some people (myself included) don't feel like Jeremy has shown respect for women. I guess he hasn't show the blatant disrespect that Drew, Keith, Alec, and John have, but he certainly isn't coming off like a feminist. 

 

Although, I've come to think Jeremy just kinda hates/doesn't respect anyone, not just the women.

 

At no point has Jeremy been anything other than respectful to the women, to the point of aligning with a bunch of them and buddying up with Natalie. His wife struck me as a strong woman and I think that has affected the way he interacts with women. He's not perfect but I'm starting to like him. I respect that he won the memory challenge too, he's not coming across as bone-headed as most of the other guys. Keith and Wes act as if they have one brain cell between them, and Alec is, well, Alec. Why Reed and Josh aligned themselves with the Neanderthals is a mystery.

[peachmangosteen]

For me personally, aligning with women isn't enough evidence of respect for women. I mean, Russell Hantz aligned with women, too.

 

To me Jeremy is just a typical guy with some sexist tendencies and chauvinistic views. I don't think he's a misogynistic piece of shit. But with this show that's almost a glowing review!

Edited November 14, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Bryce Lynch]

For me personally, aligning with women isn't enough evidence of respect for women. I mean, Russell Hantz aligned with women, too.

 

To me Jeremy is just a typical guy with some sexist tendencies and chauvinistic views. I don't think he's a misogynistic piece of shit. But with this show that's almost a glowing review!

So "typical guys" have sexist tendencies and chauvinistic views?  I don't know, but that comment sounds sort of sexist and chauvinistic to me. :)

 

Worrying about your wife and wishing you could protect her is not the least bit sexist, even if she is a cop.  Don't wives of police officers worry about their husbands when they are on patrol?

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Hatch won Season One walking around naked.  If after all of these seasons farting is too much for the women, I suggest we've regressed as a society.  

 

Releasing gas in the presence of others is rude. There is no two ways about that. If the people object and you persist? That makes you a rude asshole.

 

I am a little sad that objection to such behavior is up for debate. If calling this out this behavior is regression, then society is on the right path.

[liqidclark]

I'm a little sad that the major talking point for this episode is burps and farts.

[JudyObscure]

Since this episode has forced me to think about it so much:  I've come to realize that I have never, not even once, heard my father, brothers or husband fart.  We were brought up to think that if you feel the urge to do that you go to the bathroom to do it. We wouldn't do it around other people anymore than we would do some other "natural functions," around others.  And no, we were not raised in the Hilton, but in an ordinary house in West Virginia. 

[Alapaki]

As far as Keith's potentially giving his HII to Josh, I'm don't think Keith is a shrewd enough player to have considered that.

 

But even if he was, I'm not sure it would've made sense for his own game.

 

Worst case scenario, (and the one I think Keith's alliance thought was the most likely), John and Jaclyn stick with them and vote out Baylor on a 7-4 vote.  Then, Keith has burned his HII and exposed himself as a "player" when there's still a lot of game left to play.  

 

The Best case scenario is what actually happened.  Only Josh would've been safe and Baylor would've been voted out on the bounce-back votes.  But where would that leave Keith?  If J&J stuck with Jeremy, without Baylor there'd be a 5-5 tie between the alliances.  They could certainly work to pull J&J back.  And I think J&J seem to both be sufficient students of the game to know the hazards of TC ties.  But their flip-back wouldn't be guaranteed; Alec would still be a threat to flip to Jeremy to avoid a tie; Keith is certainly a contender for Individual Immunity on any given week; and if not, it's always preferable to head into a tie with a HII than without one.

[SHOgirl]

I theorize that the "Baylor is an entitled brat" people are non-parents, and the ones who just see a regular teen are parents.

I can't speak for others in the "Baylor is an entitled brat camp" but I am the parent of three teenage girls.

Also, Baylor is a teen?

Edited to add that, while I did use the word "entitled" in my post regarding Baylor, I think the other words I used, "spoiled" and "manipulative," are far more descriptive of her as to her relationship with Missy.

Edited November 14, 2014 by SHOgirl

[Alapaki]

One other thing I wanted to add was that Josh's alliance's targeting of Baylor made little strategic sense to me.  I think it was an instance of a superficial desire to break up another "couple", perhaps combined with a dislike of, at least, Baylor if not both her and her mother.

 

But since there seems to have been a consensus dislike of Baylor and Missy out there (at least among everyone not named Jeremy or Natalie), I don't see Baylor of Missy as FTC threats at all.  In fact, the ideal FTC scenario (if a F3) might be to sit next to both Baylor and Missy.  

 

If Keith were going to give his HII to Josh, and then vote to eliminate either John or Jaclyn (or even Natalie) on the bounce-back vote, that's a gambit that would've had more potential upside.  Because at least then Keith would've been sacrificing his HII to eliminate a threat while building up his own FTC argument.

 

(of course, the possibility of J&J staying with Keith's alliance might've dissuaded them from targeting either John or Jaclyn.  But I think they'd still have a shot at convincing the remainder of J&J to stick with them next week to avoid a tie; which is what they'd have to have done if J&J flipped and Baylor got eliminated on a bounce-back vote).

[SlackerInc]

Why did Josh say he let people see too much of himself?  I hope that wasn't about his (chaste) sexuality; but that doesn't make sense given that he is on there with his fiance and all.

 

Since this episode has forced me to think about it so much:  I've come to realize that I have never, not even once, heard my father, brothers or husband fart.  We were brought up to think that if you feel the urge to do that you go to the bathroom to do it. We wouldn't do it around other people anymore than we would do some other "natural functions," around others.  And no, we were not raised in the Hilton, but in an ordinary house in West Virginia. 

 

I remember growing up, my dad was a stickler for this rule as well.  But as an adult I have become a big proponent of eating a mostly plant based, whole foods diet, including a lot of rice and beans (like they eat on the "island").  If I went to the bathroom every time I have to fart throughout the day, I'd never get back.  I'd have to live in there.  And I'm not even joking or exaggerating.  Yet this is pretty well scientifically proven to be the healthiest way to eat.

 

And then in college I dated a girl who had developed IBS, she said, because she had been raised to repress this natural bodily function.

 

I say this BTW not at all to carry water for the "frat boys".  I find them obnoxious and I was pulling for Jaclyn to prevail in the debate with Jon.  I just wanted to respond to this in general terms.

Edited November 14, 2014 by SlackerInc

[ProfCrash]

Why did Josh say he let people see too much of himself?  I hope that wasn't about his (chaste) sexuality; but that doesn't make sense given that he is on there with his fiance and all.[/terse]

 

I think he was too out front as a strategist. They knew he was smart and the leader and that is why he was targeted. I don't think his comment had a darn thing to do with his sexuality. He wanted to sit back a bit more and hide in the crowd but he wasn't able to do that and so Jeremy targeted Josh for the same reason that Josh targeted Jeremy. Maybe if he had an alliance with people smarter then the folks he was working with he could have but there was no way to let Alec, Wes, and Keith handle strategy. In his interviews Josh makes it clear that he worked to make Jaclyn feel included when Jon was gone but that the others did not help his cause. He understood that they could not leave Jaclyn out cold, he understood the social aspect. The Neanderthals did not. They assumed that Jon would tell Jaclyn what to do and she would do it.

 

As for the farting, you don't have to go to the bathroom. You can step away from the crowd or say excuse me. You don't have to make jokes about it and discuss how you wish you could make someone smell the last fart. It is not the bodily function that is objectionable, it is the three year old toilet humor that is objectionable.

 

Josh's alliance targeted Baylor because of her lack of work ethic. They pretty much said that when they called her useless and with the way they treat her around camp. So they were not targeting someone based on strategy but thinking that they could vote people off who annoy them.

 

Alec, Wes, and Keith thought that they had the majority. Jeremy was always the target if he didn't win immunity. After Jeremy, I don't think that the Neanderthals felt like Missy was a threat in challenges and she was less offensive to them then Baylor. They liked Natalie, so I think she would have been the last person in the alliance they targeted. So why not vote off the person they found the most offensive? That person way Baylor.

 

If they had been thinking strategically, they should have targeted Natalie who is more of a threat in challenges and well liked by the players making her more of a threat at the final tribal if she made it that far.

 

The difference between Josh's alliance and Jeremy's alliance is that Jeremy's alliance seems to understand strategy on some level. Natalie does, she had a couple of alliances going in the original tribe and seems to have a strong alliance with Jeremy. Missy might not be a great player but she understands strategy and who to target. Baylor will do what her Mom says but I think she does understand why they needed to take out Josh. Jon and Jaclyn seem to have a decent grasp on what is happening. I agree with Jaclyn's assessment, it will be easier for Jon and she to do well in immunity challenges facing Baylor and Missy then facing Alec, Wes, Reed and Keith. Jeremy and Natalie could be immunity threats but more likely then not, Jon's really challenge will be Jeremy in anything physical. I would take going up against one over going up against 4 any day of the week.

 

So while Wes, Alec and Keith are annoying the crap out of the women, the strategic play was to remove Josh who was the intellectual head of that alliance and weaken its ability to influence others. Once Josh is gone, you pick off Wes and Alec then Reed then Keith.

 

Jon and Jaclyn are still in a good place to flip on Jeremy, which I am sure that Jeremy is aware of. They could easily agree to vote out Jeremy but I don't think they would flip to vote out Missy, Baylor or Natalie right now mainly because I think they are comfortable that Jon can beat the three of them in immunity challenges.

Edited November 14, 2014 by ProfCrash

[SHOgirl]

Oh right, you even mentioned that.

Saying a parent spoils their child isn't much less insulting and presumptuous to me than saying their child needs a whuppin. Both presume that what's best for all kids and parents is what's best from your own perspective.

Aren't all our opinions based on our own perspectives? I don't deny that mine are. Do you? And the day that I parade myself and my girls on a reality show, you are welcome to pick us apart. That day will never come, however, because none of us are looking for our 15 minutes. But Baylor and Missy signed up for this. People on Survivor get insulted on these boards all the time. And while it is certainly noble that you feel the need to defend Baylor and Missy, it does not change my opinion in the least. So I insulted them. So what? This isn't the SHOgirl board; it's the Survivor board. So talk about Survivor. Edited November 14, 2014 by SHOgirl

[Wings]

random thoughts:

 

I despise Keith.

 

Stop calling it a "hidden" immunity idol.

 

Much as I dislike Missy, I thought it grotesquely unfair that she had no shot at getting food in the reward challenge.

 

Thought it funny when somebody was discussing the possibility that Josh might be lying to them and said "You wouldn't expect that from a pastor's son," or something to that effect.   Really?  Would you expect a pastor's son to be gay and on Broadway either?   Idiot.

 

I'm waiting for the episode where Alec trips and accidentally drives a sharpened stick into his brain.

 

The challenges all seem the same now.   Enough with the puzzle shit.  Play dodgeball or musical fucking chairs. 

 

Why don't they have soda at the reward feasts?

 

I think the hermit crabs are the souls of past Survivors.

 

 

I may be in love with you. 

[BC Mama]

I think the sexist whining by the women is way overplayed.  There certainly wasn't much footage shown of it.  Crude behavior?  Yes.  Sexist?  I don't think so.  If that is all the editors have to work with, then this truly is one of the most boring seasons of Survivor. 

 

I think that there has been blatant sexism, and that has nothing to do with natural bodily functions! Making condescending remarks that the women (other than Natalie) are not capable of watching the fire for an example.

 

 

 

 

 

Ugh, I can not deal with these people thinking women are some fragile species that need to be shielded from the basic realities of life.  Seems like Missy and Baylor should have been a lot more concerned that the men were treating them like second class citizens rather than worry so much that they were *gasp* farting.  jfc..  

 

Yes! This!! Thank you. I am as much a woman as anyone, and I can fart and burp with the rest of them. What DID bother me about the burping and farting is that it was rubbing it in the faces of all those who did not get to enjoy the feast how they overate! They were practically complaining about winning, because they over-indulged! Not cool.

 

Jeremy comes off bad too with women always needing protecting and so fragile that they can't stand a few burps and farts. If he does that stuff in the firehouse I'm sure there's at least one firefighter who would find it disgusting.

 

I wonder if any female coworkers of Jeremy's were watching this and rolling their eyes!

[peachmangosteen]

It could just simply be gameplay ... I don't think real world descency applies.

 

Ah, I think that's really it. Some feel real world decency does still apply in this game (at least to some degree) and others feel that pretty much anything is OK because it's a game and not real life.

 

I don't know if I think that being an asshole to the women is gameplay in any way though. If it is, it's quite terrible!

 

I don't think we have evidence that suggests the men are doing all the work. For one, Drew certainly didn't do any. And Natalie mentioned in an extra clip that it's real rich that Alec is always getting on Baylor since all he does is prepare the fish. They've definitely shown Natalie, Missy, and Jacklyn doing work. And hell they've shown Baylor doing work, too. Maybe it's not until after Keith or Alec degrade her into it, but she still did it.

Edited November 15, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

It could just simply be gameplay.  It could also be that those guys are frustrated, because they seem to be doing most of the work.  This is a reality show, not the real world.  I don't think real world descency applies.  If everyone was on their best respecful behavior, I seriously doubt that many people would watch the show.

 

That all being said, I have a feeling that we are all seeing the real Alec.  I am not a fan.

 

Doing what work? Keith was asking the girls to help him with the wood. The hardworking guys were catching their breathes, I suppose.

 

On a show where social gameplay is key, farting and being an all round gross person would win points. Brilliant gameplay boys.

[viajero]

I have to admit that I still don't see Baylor as particularly spoiled or manipulative.  At most, there may have been a couple of incidents over the course of the season where she might have come off slightly manipulative towards her mother, but at most I took that as a normal defense mechanism that you expect to see in a kid with a somewhat overbearing parent.  While she's technically no longer a teen at 20, she's still young enough to fall back into old patterns of behavior when around her mother.  Many kids don't immediately break away from that as soon as they go off to college.  Its a more gradual process that takes time.  It certainly did for me.

 

As for her behavior towards some of the men, it's a testimony to her self control that all she does is pout and look disgruntled given the way they treat her.  It certainly wouldn't be good game play for her to react any more than she does.

 

I may have posted this somewhere earlier, but I also think its telling that almost all the real complaints we've heard about her so far have come from men, beginning with John Rocker.  While it's also true that she doesn't seem to have formed close friendships with the other women, this could easily be a function of the fact that she doesn't seem to have much in common with any of them.  Jaclyn may be the closest to her in age, but I don't see them being friends in real life.  There is no denying that Baylor does not have a particularly outgoing personality and is not very good at the social game.  But its a big leap to go from there to calling her spoiled and manipulative.

[Nashville]

It could just simply be gameplay.

 

This thought had crossed my mind as well.  In a normal social situation, a gentleman who feels one brewing excuses himself, leaves the room, goes around a corner, and shares it with people he doesn't know and will never see again.

 

This isn't a normal social situation, however; this is Survivor, where ANY absence by ANY player for ANY length of time gives rise to suspicion and paranoia:

• Are they hunting or an idol?
• Do they already have an idol, and are hiding/retrieving it?
• Are they plotting something with somebody else?  Who else is missing?  Who else tries to leave shortly afterward?
• Are they hiding anything else?  Anyone count the rice and trail mix today?
• Are they taking a dump?  Are we SURE they're taking a dump, or did they just say so for an excuse to get away?
• Should somebody follow them, to verify they're actually doing what they said they were leaving to do?

...and so on. 

 

So I could understand why people might want to avoid camp absences for any but the most emergent of reasons.  I expect nobody in this game has had a truly private, relaxed shit in weeks.

[Nashville]

IIRC, when Baylor went up against her Mom, Missy head butted her in the face. Whether it was intentional or not, it seemed like the other contestants and Probst saw it as a cheap shot and seemed shocked by it.

The only shock I saw registered in that exchange was that, after the minor semi-smacktalk exchange between mother and daughter, Missy actually backed it up with a strong initial effort - and I don't think anybody was more shocked than Baylor, who IMHO fully expected Mommy to passively hand over the comp win.

 

Which OF COURSE Mommy did, after seeing the incalculable damage done to Her Little Girl by her unforgivable sin of actually playing the Game.

And poor widdle Baylor - with her best wide-eyed "How Could You Do This, Mommy???  To ME!?!?" expression, biting her lip to keep back the tears Just Like A Big Girl - but wait, there's a Why-Did-Mommy-Hurt-Me-So-Bad tear leaking out... and another....

 

I used to coach on my oldest girl's Little League softball team.  I've seen 15-year-old girls take line drives to the mouth which required a trip to the ER (70mph softball + braces = about 12 stitches), and they didn't throw the histrionics Baylor did over a busted lip.  To me that scene was Mommy Manipulation 101, pure and simple.

 

You can't really fault Baylor for it, though; she employed a strategy, and it worked.  I'm more POed at Missy for giving in to it.

 

Even Missy seemed to feel guilty about it, which I think, combined with Baylor's anger, helped Baylor beat her.

 

Anger, nothing; that was simply Baylor tuning up the Stradivarius that is Mommy Missy, and playing it for all it was worth.  And it worked.  Missy put up NO significant offensive or defensive effort when Baylor came at her on the "reset" charge; Missy basically stood there and let Baylor push her off.  The only way Missy could've enabled Baylor's win more would have been to just go ahead and jump off the comp platform, but I don't think that strategy would have been very well received by her team.

[Bryce Lynch]

The only shock I saw registered in that exchange was that, after the minor semi-smacktalk exchange between mother and daughter, Missy actually backed it up with a strong initial effort - and I don't think anybody was more shocked than Baylor, who IMHO fully expected Mommy to passively hand over the comp win.

Which OF COURSE Mommy did, after seeing the incalculable damage done to Her Little Girl by her unforgivable sin of actually playing the Game.

And poor widdle Baylor - with her best wide-eyed "How Could You Do This, Mommy??? To ME!?!?" expression, biting her lip to keep back the tears Just Like A Big Girl - but wait, there's a Why-Did-Mommy-Hurt-Me-So-Bad tear leaking out... and another....

I used to coach on my oldest girl's Little League softball team. I've seen 15-year-old girls take line drives to the mouth which required a trip to the ER (70mph softball + braces = about 12 stitches), and they didn't throw the histrionics Baylor did over a busted lip. To me that scene was Mommy Manipulation 101, pure and simple.

You can't really fault Baylor for it, though; she employed a strategy, and it worked. I'm more POed at Missy for giving in to it.

Anger, nothing; that was simply Baylor tuning up the Stradivarius that is Mommy Missy, and playing it for all it was worth. And it worked. Missy put up NO significant offensive or defensive effort when Baylor came at her on the "reset" charge; Missy basically stood there and let Baylor push her off. The only way Missy could've enabled Baylor's win more would have been to just go ahead and jump off the comp platform, but I don't think that strategy would have been very well received by her team.

Well, I guess we just see it differently. It seemed clear to me that everyone, including Probst and Missy saw Missy's head butt as a cheap shot. That, in my opinion, is why there was a pause in the battle to allow Baylor to regroup.

Head butts are even illegal is professional boxing and blows to the head of helmeted NFL players now bring penalties fines and suspensions.

I think Missy got carried away and was shocked at what she had done to her own daughter, and was like a deer in the headlights after that and had lost her will to fight, and I think that reflects better on her than if she had continued unfazed.

I can only imagine how bad I'd feel if I head butted my son (much less one of my daughters) and drew blood.

As for line drives to the mouth, those are always accidental and generally not done by the girl's mother.

And just for argument's sake, let's assume Baylor was being manipulative after the head butt. I'd say good for her! It is Survivor, being manipulative is a huge part of the game. If she did con her Mom to win the battle, it was probably her best piece of game play so far, as she hasn't shown much ability to manipulate or deceive since then.

[truthaboutluv]

Yeah I definitely never got the impression Missy deliberately head butted her kid. I think she went in very hard and accidentally whacked Baylor in the lip. That being said, while I believe Baylor was definitely and clearly in pain, I do think there was some slight manipulation on her part with the teary, Bambi eyes she kept giving Missy while saying she was absolutely fine. The reason I believe that is how her demeanor changed from before the round started again, where she was all lip trembling, teary eyed, poor me face and then as soon as Missy all but gives up and she wins the round, she immediately turned to her tribe mates, arms up, yelling and cheering. She played her mother there and hey, I don't judge her for it.

Edited November 15, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[peachmangosteen]

Initially I was pretty sure that Baylor was manipulating her mom with that whole scene, but I think now it's possible she was just caught off guard and truly hurt at that moment. Based on what we've seen so far from those two, I think it could go either way.

 

I definitely never thought Missy deliberately headbutted Baylor though and I still don't. I'm pretty sure they showed a slow-mo shot of it and it looked pretty clear to me that it was accidental.

 

I may have posted this somewhere earlier, but I also think its telling that almost all the real complaints we've heard about her so far have come from men, beginning with John Rocker. While it's also true that she doesn't seem to have formed close friendships with the other women, this could easily be a function of the fact that she doesn't seem to have much in common with any of them.

 

That is interesting. It seems like Natalie likes Baylor just fine. Jaclyn seems to be fine with her, too. Val had a problem with her, but it was game related and I can understand that.

[RedheadZombie]

Well, I guess we just see it differently. It seemed clear to me that everyone, including Probst and Missy saw Missy's head butt as a cheap shot. That, in my opinion, is why there was a pause in the battle to allow Baylor to regroup.

 

My impression was the head butt was accidental, and everyone paused because it seemed like she had lost a tooth.  I believe that was even what Jeff said.

[ByaNose]

Yeah, I think head butt was accidental, too. Also, she got the fat lip and it looked liked she might have lost a tooth. I think Missy felt really bad and never felt right about it and then just took a dive for Baylor. It's funny that seems so long ago and I don't think Baylors lip even got big after that initial hit. I'm still waiting to see who votes whom out first. I'm also waiting to see how cleaned up they are at the finale and who will have bigger hair & more makeup. LOL!!!

[henripootel]

Maybe I'm dumb (totally possible), but I didn't think the location of the idol on Exile was related in any way to the clue Jon got.

You're not the only one then - I rolled my eyes at the vagueness of the wording, then nearly rolled them out of my head as Jon 'reasoned out' what the clue meant.  My suspicious nature but I think this is like example 55 of me thinking they had a PA or a camera guy bird-dog it (meaning: point in the right direction till they catch on). 

Not that Jeff isn't occasionally a liar, but there's no reason to have done so here. If he used those actual words, that's probably exactly what it was.

The problem with this is 'schoolyard pick' doesn't have a standard definition.  I know what we all might basically agree about what this means but that doesn't mean our definition is the only one.  If Jeff construes it to mean 'Jeff tells the team captains whom to pick', then this too is a 'schoolyard pick'. This one doesn't even require Jeff to lie, just parse his definitions carefully.  This even if Probst gives a hoot about not lying, which he is absolutely free to do.

[KimberStormer]

On Survivor, it has always meant "the last person picked picks the next person".

 

I have to laugh when people accuse the producers of cheating by giving overly precise clues and then accuse them of cheating because the clues are too difficult.

[henripootel]

I have to laugh when people accuse the producers of cheating by giving overly precise clues

When did they do that?  And how would this be cheating?

and then accuse them of cheating because the clues are too difficult.

It's not the difficulty of the clues we're questioning, it's Jon's apparent ability to make heads or tails of it.  I mean I saw the place where he eventually found it so the clue should be a bit clearer in retrospect.  Nope.  And he had a lot of ground to search, and even he (at first) found the clue sufficiently ambiguous that he was poking through tidal pools.  

Edited November 16, 2014 by henripootel

[riley702]

I liked it the time there were multiple clues on Exile Island, and you had to figure out each one to find the next (even wading around in knee-deep water at one point), and eventually, the idol. I think that was Parvati when the last clue told her it was back at camp under the tribal flag. Make 'em work for it!

[Wings]

Exile doesn't look like a lot of ground to me.  They keep commenting on how desolate it is.  To me that suggests few places to hide an idol.  

 

The clue did seem ambiguous, though.  I kind of wondered if he found it just by hunting and then put together a sort of explanation of how the clue led him to it, after the fact, so it didn't seem so easy to find.  The part about water didn't make me think of "tide", more like of the drinking water source, and "double edged sword" means it can help or hurt you, so I wouldn't jump to "tallish rock" (that looked nothing like a sword).  

 

Maybe they aired his little explanation because it was funny, because he interpreted the clue all wrong.  

 

 

They probably had jugs of water for him.  I doubt there is any source there. It is just a spit of land on the coast not far from camp, not an island. The tide was the obvious water reference.  I think the double edge sword is about the target on his back if they knew he found the idol.  And it is risky with even a clue.   And I suppose that rock could have looked like a big fat sword in comparison to the flat layout. 

Exile doesn't look like a lot of ground to me.  They keep commenting on how desolate it is.  To me that suggests few places to hide an idol.  

 

The clue did seem ambiguous, though.  I kind of wondered if he found it just by hunting and then put together a sort of explanation of how the clue led him to it, after the fact, so it didn't seem so easy to find.  The part about water didn't make me think of "tide", more like of the drinking water source, and "double edged sword" means it can help or hurt you, so I wouldn't jump to "tallish rock" (that looked nothing like a sword).  

 

Maybe they aired his little explanation because it was funny, because he interpreted the clue all wrong.  

 

 

They probably had jugs of water for him.  I doubt there is any source there. It is just a spit of land on the coast not far from camp, not an island. The tide was the obvious water reference.  I think the double edge sword is about the target on his back if they knew he found the idol.  And it is risky with even a clue.   And I suppose that rock could have looked like a big fat sword in comparison to the flat layout. 

[Miss Scarlet]

Alec is the wooooorst (Jean-Ralphio voice).

[BC Mama]

I agree that the clue was pretty ambiguous, but it is likely that he was searching for quite a few hours by the time the tide was coming in and he had very few options as to where to look.

[Mreid]

Im not loving or hating this season but its no where near as good as the Brain vs Brawn vs Beauty season.  I was rooting for Josh earlier in the season but he really sealed his own fate by pushing Baylor way too hard saying she owed him. I think Im rooting for Natalie to win.  After Nadiya was the first boot I really didnt expect Natalie to make it this far and she has played a pretty good game I think. But I say going forward screw these Blood vs Water seasons and lets have more Brain Brawn and Beauty seasons.

[Turtle]

I agree that the clue was pretty ambiguous, but it is likely that he was searching for quite a few hours by the time the tide was coming in and he had very few options as to where to look.

 

 

I think the time he had to just wander around and look in every literal nook & cranny is why he found it, rather than any information from the clue (or his seriously confusing explanation of the clue), especially if all of Exile is really not that big.  

 

I have to laugh when people accuse the producers of cheating by giving overly precise clues and then accuse them of cheating because the clues are too difficult.

 

 

I'm the one that started the "am I dumb or did the clue make no sense?" conversation, so I can only assume this was directed to me, at least in part.  So, just to clear up any confusion: I wasn't accusing any one of cheating (in this instance).  I was commenting that the clue seemed, to me, to have no relation to where Jon actually found the idol.  In short, the clue made no sense, given the location of the idol, and his explanation of how he found it also didn't make any sense to me.  Anyway, giving overly precise or difficult clues wouldn't be cheating; it would be giving easy or difficult clues.  Now, the cameraman focusing his camera directly on where the idol is hidden could be considered cheating, and I think that has happened on this show.  

[FlyingEgret]

On another note, i think jaclyn looks a lot like Britney from Glee.

That's who she reminds me of - thank you!

[KimberStormer]

I'm the one that started the "am I dumb or did the clue make no sense?" conversation, so I can only assume this was directed to me, at least in part.  So, just to clear up any confusion: I wasn't accusing any one of cheating (in this instance). 

 

No, not at all!  I agreed with you, but personally, once Jon laid it out, it did make sense to me.  I just think it's funny, people are always complaining that the idols are too easy to find, remember back in the day when Yul had to be really smart to figure out some obscure clue, but then when they do give an old-school tricky clue, other people say oh he must have been helped, nobody could get that.  I was really just jokingly exaggerating when I said "cheating".  Anyway, no big deal, just joking about how hard it is to please an entire fanbase.

[Lamb18]

I'm starting to like Missy more because she's into playing the game.  I feel like she's the one who really wanted to be on the show and dragged Baylor along. However I like Natalie the best now.

[henripootel]

I just think it's funny, people are always complaining that the idols are too easy to find,

Oh, I wouldn't call it complaining - I enjoy sifting out producer nonsense.  Pretty sure that reality tv in general (and Jeff in particular) has squandered any illusions about what they are all about, but I still enjoy watching them really strain their pretense.  Not complaining though, more like pointing and laughing.

 

Jon and his crappy obscure clue, now - not the stupidest thing they've done lately but hardly a triumph of manufacturing.  I mean it's clear they put so much work into the lovely fake ruins and snake-wrangling.  Here's a clue for you, Mr. Probst: put some thought into the clues and you won't have to point people in the right direction, nor pretend that you'd never do such a thing.  Once you know the answer the clue should be obvious - no reason this can't be fun.

Edited November 17, 2014 by henripootel