S02.E08: Heartless

[40Love]

I think Hawley is ugly. I've looked at him from different angles and I just don't see it. I was trying to think of what tv star he reminded me of and all I could come up with is Harry and Hendersons. Abbie can, and already did, do better.

 

Awww... really?: -)

 

I think he's pretty cute. In fact, I think he could play a great Virgil Flowers (a Minnesota detective from my favorite fiction writer John Sanford).  Not crazy about the idea of him trying to get with both sisters... but for the most part I don't mind Hawley's character. Although I do wish they would add Jenny in more. 

 

It's clear Katrina is no Charmed One! Too bad. It'd be nice to see her.. you know ...do so magic without swooning all the time... and actually back up all that condescension she's throwing Abby's way with some real power. Just sayin'.

 

I love this show! 

[lucindabelle]

I hearted this show so much last season, even with the ridiculous High Dutch long after ghe Great Vowel Shift (may I say I adored the way English majors the world over howled in outrage but then said ok, yeah, we still love you, show).

 

I loved the way this season started. But it's gone so far downhill. Are there different writers? is it a mythology blip? Last season the invention seemed endless. I literally rushed home from work to see it. Now I watch it hours later or days later on the DVR, largely because I'm friendly with a recapper on a Big Newspaper and want to comment for him.

 

It can't all be blamed on Katrina. In fact I would have gone along with it if they'd added her to the Scooby gang. What has happened?

 

Can this marriage be saved?

[phoenics]

There are new writers this season. I have a feeling the first 2 eppies of the season were penned by S1 writers (if you look at Abbie's hair, you can tell - the hair that she had on promotion over the summer showed up in Episode 3 - before that she still had S1 hair) and then after that it was the new writers.

It's a shame really.

[venusnv80]

This episode basically displayed that Abbie is not here for Katrina ' s shenanigans or Crane's. I hope this is building up to be a huge blowout between Ichabod and Abbie. I can only hope she gives him a peace of her mind.

[slayer2]

I couldn't even finish watching it guys, I've fallen so hard out of love that I have a bump on my head. I just came here for the Previously TV posters version of events.

[Luciano]

What’s up with Abbie’s hair? For nearly the past year her hair has been hooked up, make up looked great, but tonight she’s back to the just rolled out of bed look. Mind you, she still looked lovely, but why the sudden change?

I know why they styled it like that in this episode (so you could see easily who the succubus reminded Hawley of) but I like to believe that she has spent the last few weeks tearing at her hair in frustration over Crane family stupidity and she just decided to say "Fuck it" because she knew it'll just be a mess again after visiting the cabin.

With Katrina gone in the next episode, the hair goes back to styled.

[crabbypants]

In my head Jenny has gone back to Tarrytown so that she could spring Irving as a fellow patient while Henry plays the role of Peter Pettigrew. They're now out of the country procuring weapons to blow away Horsemen, which will be revealed when Crabbie come running up to some suspected Horseman as it's destroyed. Then we'll get a nice two months previously flashbacks episode of Jenving doing their thing with the occasional question from Crabbie. Meanwhile Katrina has gone dark and takes the place of the Horseman they thought was dead.

[BlueJay81]

My template for all things apocalypse is Supernatural. Aren't the Horsemen supposed to ride together before the whole big evil happens. I know Moloch isn't the devil, but they haven't mentioned the devil so I thought Moloch was their Big Bad. I thought the Horsemen riding together would then free Moloch and unleash hell on earth.
Why does Moloch want to escape from purgatory now? Thought there was formula for this stuff like the whole bit about Death isn't the one to kill the witnesses.

Henry didn't feel the need to assign Hessians to guard the succubus heart? I have a soft spot for Abraham, but do wonder if he is still riding at night chopping off heads or is he on vacation? Think he and Katrina have better chemistry than Katrina and Crane.
Still find Hawley bland and don't think he is rugged enough or pretty enough for the role he is supposed to be playing. Maybe it's the annoying scruffy beard. Plus all of a sudden this 'worldly rogue' is lovesick for Abby!?
The pacing of this show has changed. In season one everything was tense and fast paced like people facing the end of the world. Now it's all very pedestrian for both the witnesses and villains. The stakes don't feel high at all.

Edited November 12, 2014 by BlueJay81

[HalcyonDays]

Yeah - that was me. When I read an article with the actress who played the Succubus mention that she would play both Abbie and Katrina, I knew that the writers were violating their own Succubus mythology (hidden desires) just to take a swipe at Ichabbie fans by having even Crane's hidden desires be about his wife.

Do they think Ichabbie is due to their writing? Because the scene with The Bachelor would have worked well with Tom and Nicole - but with Tom and Katia - NOPE!

Poor writers... they think it's them that made Ichabbie great.

It's mind boggling though - any other show would be foaming at the mouth with joy that they had a pairing with so much chemistry (Ichabbie) that they'd be milking it for all it was worth.

I've never seen a show so determined to destroy the chemistry of its leads and replace it with another pair. It's mind boggling.

 

I totally agree. Completely. That article, I knew Abbie for Hawley and Katrina for Ichabod, though it made no sense to me. How can Katrina be his hidden desire, or thing he's hiding. However, on another site, someone pointed out that "she could sense the desire he was trying to deny and also the doubt in his heart." The desire in his heart - Abbie, and the doubt in his heart - Katrina. And now I remove my shipper goggles. :')

 

In terms of other shows mouth-watering over the chemistry, totally agree. Again, some other network needs to sign on Beharie and Mison onto a new show, preferrably a romantic comedy. It would be awesome.

 

Awww... really?: -)

 

I think he's pretty cute. In fact, I think he could play a great Virgil Flowers (a Minnesota detective from my favorite fiction writer John Sanford).  Not crazy about the idea of him trying to get with both sisters... but for the most part I don't mind Hawley's character. Although I do wish they would add Jenny in more.

 

I don't mind Hawley either. I don't like Jenny being shoved out of the screen either, but Hawley is pretty amusing to me and he has a nice chemistry with Abbie, and good interactions with Crane. And he is good looking, but Mison is more my type.

 

ETA: Damn, the head costume designer - Kristen Burke - is leaving the show too. Is the writing on the wall already? Do they know something that we don't (i.e. they know it's the end). Damn, her costuming is amazing.

[JayKay]

Thinking back on it, I kind of wonder if Katrina couldn't tell Crane that she was headed back to Headless because she was afraid that he would be supportive of it. Like someone else upthread mentioned (I think it was bethy), Ichabod seemed relieved when Abbie walked in on all of that sensuous reality tv watching and forehead kissing with the wife. When Abbie asked if she'd interrupted anything he basically went "Ew, no, and thank god you're here." Katrina even looked a little affronted at his reaction. Ichabod is uncomfortable with Katrina now and where he once was attracted to her "mysterious heart" he's clearly starting to wonder what all lurks around in there.

 

I think Katrina and Ichabod feel the same way about things, to an extent. She admitted that she is feeling lost in the new world with how things have changed. And that she's gripping onto the way things were before because they're familiar. But I think that toppling off the pedestal Ichabod had always placed her on has changed her feelings about herself and maybe even her feelings for him. Abraham still sees her as a prize worthy of defying God Himself for, though. Could be that being perceived that way is something she's familiar and comfortable with and just maybe she's a little relieved to get away from Ichabod now, too.

 

In a way, if it's done right, the disintegration of Ichabod and Katrina's marriage would be like a deconstruction of romanticism. Look at the reality shows as an example. Who wants to watch the base, sleazy possibilities of love and relationships, when you've always valued your love as some inviolate purity of the human spirit? You've got that dark, gothic "mysterious heart" being examined in the light of the modern age and certainty and trust, and it's not quite up to snuff anymore. Might be that the lesson to be learned for those two is that love needs to be tangible and transparent and not just based on principle and archaic ideals. That goes for their love for each other, and for their son.

 

I think I just went on a tangent and I don't remember what I was talking about.

[GracieV]

Here's an article from EW that brings up many of the things folks on this thread are talking about: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/11/six-ways-to-fix-sleepy-hollow/

You know what else? I think Hawley is ugly. I've looked at him from different angles and I just don't see it. I was trying to think of what tv star he reminded me of and all I could come up with is Harry and Hendersons. Abbie can, and already did, do better.

He's got these little fishwhite lips in a dirty bramble of facial hair that just turns me off soooo much. :P

[topanga]

 

If Katrina REALLY thinks Henry has a regular human baby and that baby has nothing to do with Baby Moloch, I'll have to move her from Annoyance, to Too Stupid To Live.

As soon I saw that cute, chubby baby, my first thought was, "Good-bye world." Even though Katrina knows it's Moloch, she will find a way to argue that he (and Henry, of course) can be saved.

 

And I can't believe she's afraid of rats. Weren't there rats running around during the Revolutionary War? All of those dead bodies and bloody fields?

 

The episode was okay. The scenes with Katrina were definitely slower-paced, and there wasn't enough uninterrupted Crane-Abbie time. Not just the cute bantering, but the time they spend together to go over theories together and making plans together. And where was Jenny?????!!!!  Like another poster said, it's lazy writing just to leave her out of an episode (or several) without explanation when she has become such an integral part of the core group.

 

But liked the Succubus--her human face was cute and kind, which made her transformation that much more powerful.

And I liked the Hawley-Abbie scenes. I think Crane convinced her that focusing on work and goals doesn't mean you have to close your heart to other feelings.

 

I'm gong to re-watch the ep and count up Abbie's eye rolls and side eyes. She had a bunch for Katrina, Ichabod, and even Hawley. This will be fun.

[allyw]

This wasn't as bad as I expected but I think it was more due to last week's being so horrible than the actual quality of the episode. Abbie finally got to speak up but then they had to tack on the "praise Karina" at the end.~sigh~ I'm guessing they think if Abbie says it then the audience will buy it. And for the life of me I don't get why they keep insisting that Katrina is a strong witch but then have her keep fainting and needing Abbie's help for spells. Also the cold opening was kind of silly and they should've done something else if they didn't want the audience to compare it to the Ichabbie ones.  The visual of Abbie working while Cranewreck sitting around watching tv rubbed me the wrong way as well.

As for Hawley, I can't get on board with him and Abbie for the simple fact that he use to sex her sister and I want Jenny and Irving back and his scruffy wanna be Indiana Jones ass of my screen.

[saber5055]

That article, I knew Abbie for Hawley and Katrina for Ichabod, though it made no sense to me. How can Katrina be his hidden desire, or thing he's hiding. However, on another site, someone pointed out that "she could sense the desire he was trying to deny and also the doubt in his heart." The desire in his heart - Abbie, and the doubt in his heart - Katrina.

Romance, showmance. Who cares. I'm in this show for the kick-*ss Abbie and Crane fighting Headless and other Monsters Of The Week. I could care less who is lusting after whom. Which is why I'm really disliking this season after last week and especially this week. So much lovelorn, namby-pamby Crane and prissy Katrina, who can't do an incantation without passing out. Only Abbie is still sort of like what she used to be.

 

Damn, the head costume designer - Kristen Burke - is leaving the show too.

Maybe that's why Katrina is still wearing that stupid bodice she wore to escape from the hospital. You'd think Abbie could have gotten her a Goodwill t-shirt or something.

[saber5055]

 

Be still my heart! Now these two are who I'd love to see on the show. They'd fit right in with Abbie and Jenny's badassed-ness. Also they know a thing or two about killing demons. They wouldn't put up with the Crane's crap and both brothers are WAY hotter than Crane and just demolish Hawley in the looks. Abbie and Dean or wait Abbie and Sam, either coupling would be fine by me. :)

You just described the best crossover show EVAH! Thanks for the great visuals. Heh.

[BigEasygirl]

And you cannot replicate that type of chemistry (Mison and Beharie), simply by writing a similar scene. Thinking again of that "dancing" scene - look at how effortless the interactions were between Ichabod and Abbie. So effortless and connected and all of that. The cold opening? Shudder.

 

I cannot believe how they're wasting this all too rare kind of chemistry. And I can't bear what they're doing to both Crane and Abbie. It's just...totally insane.

 

This episode was written by Albert Kim, who is a Mark Goffman - ie. someone who wants to push Katrina to the forefront. There you go.

If he thinks that having Abbie prop and laud a fainting and generally ineffectual Katrina as some kind asset is going to result in anything outside of making all but Katrina stans roll their eyes incredulously, he's delusional.

 

I didn't initially see it (maybe it was my disgust and confusion) but seeing a couple of gifs on the internet - The Succubus does a head tilt just like Abbie does, her eyes go yellow and then Crane's eyes go wide, because he realizes Abbie is in there too...Damn...Too bad we'll never get there.

I saw those gifs too, and its sort of making me want to watch the episode. Yet I don't really want to because I'm disliking Crane so much, and I know I'm going to hate seeing Abbie be relegated to being even more of The Help than she was last week in spite of her truth-telling showdown with Katrina.

This show is really making me sad.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Reese

[Mia Nina]

 

My template for all things apocolypse is Supernatural. Aren't the horsemen supposed to ride together before the whole big evil happens.

 

Oh Supernatural, another show that turned the Apocalypse into a family drama. *shakes head* But yeah, in the Bible the Horsemen appear in Revelation chapter 6 and they basically come in succession after the opening of the first four seals which are precursors to the final judgment. Basically the Horsemen bring absolute terror and eternal death to millions and millions of people. (I understand Sleepy Hollow can't exactly follow the Bible considering the End Times cannot be stopped by humans or demons or anyone. In any case, Moloch would not be causing the Apocalypse but most diligently working alongside Abbie and Ichabod to stop it considering the Apocalypse ends with the extermination of all evil.)

 

But anyway, the show should have gone to a different source because turning this really dark and heavy plot into a backdrop for the Cranes wimpy romance is utterly ridiculous, and having Ichabod wondering and mooning over his "wife" (I've come to hate the word) and son instead of caring about the people they're meant to save isn't helping the character at all. They're Witnesses, not mere bystanders/victims, and when the stakes are that high, who cares about Ichabod's pining? How come he has so much time and energy to ponder how unhappy he is with his family situation, like the world is ending, dude, who cares about your drama? You'll all be dead anyway if your beloved Henry succeeds and Moloch rises. And if they simply can't help themselves, the least they could do is not give Abbie's new love interest a romantic past with her SISTER. For shame! It is baffling, just baffling.

 

I don't even know anymore.

[vanarnd1]

The way I would describe the episode is that it wasn't equal to the sum of it's parts. There were moments mixed in that I liked, but when Katrina is involved too heavily she takes over the whole show and impacts the whole dynamic.

 

I think this has also made Crane very inconsistent. I feel the writers are still teasing Ichabbie with how Crane has acted torward Hawley and the succubus's comments about him denying his true feelings. At the same time though the writers have had Crane profess his love to Katrina constantly and even had them together in the opening scene that he would normally share with Abbie. I think as a result this has ruined a lot of the fun of the Crane/Abbie scenes that are the draw of the show.

 

And Abbie is forced to spend the whole episode arguing about Henry just to have the ending scene where Katrina is fawning over Baby Moloch just seems pointless. I feel the show is spinning it's wheels with this storyline, and it is also contrived that Jenny was not present because she would have backed up Abbie when it comes to Henry and I think it is very intentional that she has been absent during those arguments.

 

I am not really sure what to think of a Hawley/Abbie pairing yet, but as long as there is no drama that involves Jenny, I would like to see how it plays out. I think this episode was Hawley's best apperance so far.

 

Overall this episode was an improvement over last week, but I am still concerned about the show's overall direction. I am looking forward to next week's ep though and hope it will mean a shift in the focus going forward.

Edited November 12, 2014 by vanarnd1

[fantique]

There's an unwritten rule among black women (sorry, I only know about that dynamic when it comes to sistas) that we don't keep it in the family or among friends.  So this Abbie/Hawley/Jenny thing is making me want to throw up and get a twitter account so I can educate the writers.

I'm right there with you. I also think that's just a rule for everyone. I mean, it's just the idea that 2 sisters seeing this guy naked and having sex with him that just grosses me the hell out.

 

Badass person with oedipal tendencies.

I request the permission to re-use this awesome explanation of BAMF. May I?

 

 Be still my heart! Now these two are who I'd love to see on the show. They'd fit right in with Abbie and Jenny's badassed-ness. Also they know a thing or two about killing demons. They wouldn't put up with the Crane's crap and both brothers are WAY hotter than Crane and just demolish Hawley in the looks. Abbie and Dean or wait Abbie and Sam, either coupling would be fine by me. :)

It's official! I stopped reading fanfic a while ago but I must see an Abbie/Dean fanfic stat. It would make my heart sing.

 

ETA: Damn, the head costume designer - Kristen Burke - is leaving the show too. Is the writing on the wall already? Do they know something that we don't (i.e. they know it's the end). Damn, her costuming is amazing.

That sucks! She did such a great job to give me a sense of identity of the characters through their wardrobe. I am sad to see her go. That along with original writers leaving AND Kurtzman & Orci no longer being hands on is a damn shame. This is making me feel more and more pessimistic. The saddest part is that it could have been so freaking great. I held on until Deliverance but I am worried you guys.

[HalcyonDays]

I saw those gifs too, and its sort of making me want to watch the episode. Yet I don't really want to because I'm disliking Crane so much, and I know I'm going to hate seeing Abbie be relegated to being even more of The Help than she was last week in spite of her truth-telling showdown with Katrina.

This show is really making me sad.

 

I'm debating on rewatching it on demand, because in my irritation I deleted it from my DVR, but I might be tempted. BTW, this is a person who kept half of season 1 on her DVR for nine months, for rewatches (I actually only rewatched once or twice, but couldn't bear to delete them. Don't ask). Now - DVR is SH empty.

 

Last week the general consensus seemed to be anger. This week, everyone is just plain sad.

 

But anyway, the show should have gone to a different source because turning this really dark and heavy plot into a backdrop for the Cranes wimpy romance is utterly ridiculous, and having Ichabod wondering and mooning over his "wife" (I've come to hate the word) and son instead of caring about the people they're meant to save isn't helping the character at all.

 

You and me both, Mia Nina. I cringe too whenever the name Katrina is said, or the word wife. It started last season, actually. How can a man with such an amazing, mesmerizing voice - a voice that currently was used to narrate Washington Irvings Sleepy Hollow, AND on a phone app - say that one word, and it makes my hackles rise.

 

It's part of the problem with the entire season, and what I consider character assassination for Crane and Katrina (well, her not too sure, due to her shady behaviour), but they decided that Henry's life is more important than the millions of people on earth. They decided to play god, and decide that Henry was worth more than all of his victims who ended up dying - which another two people were added to the list this episode. While they are dawdling, people are dying.

[stealinghome]

There's an unwritten rule among black women (sorry, I only know about that dynamic when it comes to sistas) that we don't keep it in the family or among friends.  So this Abbie/Hawley/Jenny thing is making me want to throw up and get a twitter account so I can educate the writers.

I'm right there with you. I also think that's just a rule for everyone. I mean, it's just the idea that 2 sisters seeing this guy naked and having sex with him that just grosses me the hell out.

SING IT. If I knew my sister had been with a guy, I would be like "Oh FUCK no." He is forever crossed off the list, he is permanently in the friend category, nuh uh, nope, never ever going there, not even imagining it, EW EW GROSS. I feel like that's a basic human rule.

 

(Plus, think about the fact that when you sleep with someone, you're sleeping with everyone that person has ever slept with. DO NOT WANT.)

[DeLurker]

Last week the general consensus seemed to be anger. This week, everyone is just plain sad.

Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance - Bastards gypped us out of some of the stages of grief.

[lucindabelle]

Oh no wonder the first couple of episodes had me going show, I missed you. Oh why mess with perfection? Where did the old writers go?

In this episode, I'm not sure what went wrong. It should have worked. But didn't. Pace?

[Julia]

I request the permission to re-use this awesome explanation of BAMF. May I?

 

Aw.

 

On behalf of my late father, who was a master of rude euphemisms, go for it ;)

[rue721]

SING IT. If I knew my sister had been with a guy, I would be like "Oh FUCK no." He is forever crossed off the list, he is permanently in the friend category, nuh uh, nope, never ever going there, not even imagining it, EW EW GROSS. I feel like that's a basic human rule.

 

Does Abbie know about Jenny and Hawley hooking up, and/or does Jenny know that Hawley's trying to get with Abbie? I had thought not, but I don't really remember.

 

Hawley's sleazy, the show can clean him up all they want with lines like "not everything's a spreadsheet," etc, but dude's a mercenary who Abbie had to bargain with and basically trick just to get him to help find a lost child ffs. Not exactly pick of the litter. Given that, I'm not surprised that he'd want to sleep his way through the Mills family, too, though why the show is trying to paint that as romantic I don't know. I can't blame a sleaze for being sleazy but I obviously don't want to watch Abbie and/or Jenny get played. Why would I be rooting for him to hook up with either of them at this point?!

 

I also still resent that Hawley is even a character that exists because he's obviously supposed to fill Jenny's role (right down to them having the same fantastical job), except +sex. But I miss Jenny anyway and sorry, while I get the need for Abbie to have a personal life, does that personal life have to be with *Hawley* in particular?! Because no thanks imo, might as well be zombie!Andie at that point if there are just going to be zero standards for her LI.

[cynic]

I just keep thinking how weak and useless Katrina is despite supposedly being a powerful witch. It doesn't make any sense. She basically passes out when she has to do anything more taxing than lighting a few candles. Remember badass priest chainslinger? She doesn't even seem as awesome as him and he died.

And what was up with Ichabod propping her character? She happens to identify something magical and helpful for once and it's "brilliant"? Bah.

...

I've seen it before. It is happening in the current seasons of not one but two other shows that I watch. ...

TimetoRead, I'm curious. What are the other two shows?

[BrokenRemote]

Add me to the list of people who don't find Hawley attractive in the slightest. I also keep hearing people swoon over his 'sexy southern accent', but it sounds to my ears like his 'accent' comes and goes. He'd be a turn-off no matter who played him, because, doing the same job with the same expertise as Jenny, he was obviously only brought on to be shoe-horned into the plot as a love interest, but on top of that the actor is just objectively unattractive to my tastes.

Doesn't help that he plays the (highly cliched) character as though it's obvious that he's god's gift.

[marceline]

 

And what was up with Ichabod propping her character? She happens to identify something magical and helpful for once and it's "brilliant"?

 

I admit to cracking up at the description of Katrina as a highly skilled operative. The only word in that phrase that might apply to Katrina is "high."

[SouthernGal]

Ichabod was conflicted about his feelings and the succubus picked up on this, a lot of us (myself included) just missed it.

 

Tweets from Kristen Burke (costume designer for the show, thru January.)

 

Frocktalk @Frocktalk  •  Nov 10
Abbie in Teal is my favorite! @NikkiBeharie looking good! #SleepyHollow

Frocktalk @Frocktalk  •  Nov 10
Wait, is she wearing a teal t-shirt?! #succubus #SleepyHollow

[LydiaMoon1]

Hawley's sleazy, the show can clean him up all they want with lines like "not everything's a spreadsheet," etc, but dude's a mercenary who Abbie had to bargain with and basically trick just to get him to help find a lost child ffs. Not exactly pick of the litter. Given that, I'm not surprised that he'd want to sleep his way through the Mills family, too, though why the show is trying to paint that as romantic I don't know. I can't blame a sleaze for being sleazy but I obviously don't want to watch Abbie and/or Jenny get played. Why would I be rooting for him to hook up with either of them at this point?!

 

I also still resent that Hawley is even a character that exists because he's obviously supposed to fill Jenny's role (right down to them having the same fantastical job), except +sex. But I miss Jenny anyway and sorry, while I get the need for Abbie to have a personal life, does that personal life have to be with *Hawley* in particular?! Because no thanks imo, might as well be zombie!Andie at that point if there are just going to be zero standards for her LI.

I'm right there with you on everything except for one thing...<tiny voice> **I love Andy**.  Unlike Crane, he's loyal to Abbie. I'm hoping for a zombie cure.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LydiaMoon1

[saber5055]

 

How can a man with such an amazing, mesmerizing voice - a voice that currently was used to narrate Washington Irvings Sleepy Hollow, AND on a phone app - say that one word, and it makes my hackles rise.

This reminded me of another reason I dislike Katrina so much. Mison's voice is like honey, I wait for his every word. Katrina's voice is irritating and condescending and so haughty, it makes me dislike the character (or actress?) even more, regardless of what she is asked to do in a scene. I can't stand to listen to her snotty voice. I hate, hate, hate it. Mison, on the other hand, can talk to me all day. And night. Heh.

 

I'm hoping for a zombie cure.

I'm hoping for one, too, now that Selfie has been CANCELLED! Bring Andy back, please. Maybe have him kill/zombie-fy Katrina. That would make two big improvements to this show.

[DearEvette]

I still don't mind Hawley and thinks he is far from the reason S2 is kind of a mess.  I wrote somewhere else, that Hawley is a plug & play character.  If you remove him S2 would still be a bit of a mess.  He's not the real problem. 

 

My two biggest issues with Hawley are 1) His somewhat pervasive inclusion.  This couple with the lack of Jenny/Irving make him feel like a usurper. 

If they had included Hawley in addition to Jenny in all those episodes, I think I'd feel a little more charitable toward his inclusion.  He worked great with her in the Wendigo episode as we saw so it could  have been easily done.

 

and 2) his past love connection with Jenny.  As long as they are trying to make him get with Abbie, then having him have a past with Jenny is so unnecessary.  It is a soap opera tactic and unworthy of what this show used to be all about.  I hope that whatever plans they had for that have not already been filmed and they can course correct.  

[tv echo]

My biggest problem with Hawley is that he reminds me of Spencer Pratt, that obnoxious reality tv 'star'.

 

In order to save this show, they need to go back to what made it so enjoyable the first season - keeping the central focus on Ichabod and Abbie, their evolving partnership, and fighting evil.  Much as I love Jenny, I'm fine with her sticking to a supporting role.  Same for Hawley and Frank.  Also, get rid of Jeremy, Abraham and Katrina - that will eliminate the family drama, the doomed love triangle, and the bodice-ripping love scenes.  Have the Horsemen return as other people - this time people close to Abbie.  Incidentally, I think the Horsemen deliberately show up as people close to the Witnesses in order to make it  harder for the Witnesses to defeat them - as evidenced by the interminable debates over Jeremy.

Edited November 12, 2014 by tv echo

[HalcyonDays]

Ichabod was conflicted about his feelings and the succubus picked up on this, a lot of us (myself included) just missed it.

 

Tweets from Kristen Burke (costume designer for the show, thru January.)

 

Frocktalk @Frocktalk  •  Nov 10

Abbie in Teal is my favorite! @NikkiBeharie looking good! #SleepyHollow

 

Frocktalk @Frocktalk  •  Nov 10

Wait, is she wearing a teal t-shirt?! #succubus #SleepyHollow

 

DAMN!!!  I didnt even catch these and I do read her twitter!! (some really interesting costume information). Is the Succubus wearing a teal shirt? Ugh - looks like I will have to rewatch this episode. Nice catch, Southern Girl.

She also tweeted this:

Frocktalk @Frocktalk  ·  Nov 10

#Katrinaham might have a life of its own. They are a beautiful couple. #SleepyHollow

 

Hee. Too bad she is leaving the show.

 

If they had included Hawley in addition to Jenny in all those episodes, I think I'd feel a little more charitable toward his inclusion.

 

I totally agree. I have no idea why they did this (actually, I do know why), but is does make it creepy. Now what if Jenny and Hawley fooled around a little ("macked on each other") but never slept together because it they just weren't that into each other, would that work? I mean, they could have written it as a drunken thing, but nothing happened. So history with Jenny, but no creepy with Abbie.

 

And Crane is not learning words properly anymore. If I am not mistaken, macking means making advances or even making out with someone else. It does NOT mean having sex with them. Yet Abbie says "get lucky, get some, etc." Well, that's not what macking means. Poor guy is getting incorrect definitions of modern slang now.

[DeLurker]

 

And Crane is not learning words properly anymore.

Just checked Dictionary.com - apparently macking has been around since 1880 or so meaning essentially what it means today.  Originates from a 15th century French term mackerel pimp (those Frenchies).  So it looks like they are still doing some of the homework in the writers' room.

[lucindabelle]

1880 is still 100 years too late for crane.

[BigEasygirl]

Southerngirl, thanks for bringing that over. So the Succubus was wearing teal like Abbie and so was mimicking both Katrina and Abbie to Crane. You're really making me have to watch this epi. *sigh* lol

 

And Crane is not learning words properly anymore. If I am not mistaken, macking means making advances or even making out with someone else. It does NOT mean having sex with them. Yet Abbie says "get lucky, get some, etc." Well, that's not what macking means. Poor guy is getting incorrect definitions of modern slang now.

Every thing involving Crane seems to just be deteriorating, no? *sigh* Edited November 12, 2014 by Reese

[saber5055]

 

So it looks like they are still doing some of the homework in the writers' room.

Or reading the Harry Potter books.

 

You're really making me have to watch this epi.

I wouldn't recommend it. Seeing what the succubus is wearing and how it tilts its head are not reasons to subject yourself to such suffering. Spare yourself and just read the recap!

Edited November 12, 2014 by saber5055

[theatremouse]

All of this back and forthing with Katrina, literally in terms of where she physically is: with the "good" guys or the Moloch guys, it's really pissing me off. There's creating a character who is morally grey, or whose stance you question, and then there's just flip flopping. They're not writing it like a cohesive, intentional, going somewhere with it plot for her. It seems like every other episode they're having her motivations appear ambiguous just so they can say it was ambiguous, as if that alone is compelling. I am now convinced either they plain hadn't/haven't decided yet where it's going, or failed to tell the actress to play it any particular way.

 

I know, I know, actors often don't know what happens until they get each individual script, but they still have to make a choice to play it some way. This reads like her acting choice of how to play it is something along the lines of "your guess is as good as mine". So none of it plays real. I want this plot to be over so I know where it's going, not because it's interesting but because I'm so frustrated with what's been shown. I want to be able to have that moment of "OH that's what you mean by all this bullshit?" There's a teeny tiny chance once it's revealed I'll think it makes sense, but so far, I'm not holding out.

 

I did sort of almost kind of maybe like how it seemed that the necklace had some sort of control over her and she seemed to be magically drawn to or bound to baby Moloch. Which could theoretically add a layer of complexity to this whole "which side is she on" thing. But for that to be interesting it'd need to be something like...she thinks she's on one side and there are forces outside of her control she's not even aware of planting her on the other, or something. And I'd need to have a better grounded sense of who she is, even if it were only to be proved wrong later. A reveal of "you thought it was THIS but it's actually THAT" only works if there was any "this" in the first place. You can't start from "what the hell, I can't tell what they mean at all or come to any reasonable conclusion" and then do a reveal. There's no AHA moment. Instead of being fulfilling in a story sense, it just reminds a viewer how written it is. Satisfying resolution is: now I understand what was going on with this character. Unsatisfying resolution is: now I understand what this writer was trying and failing to do the past six months.

[moviewhore]

If nothing else I am enjoying John Noble as Henry.  That man is having fun with the role and it shows.  He's just amazing as usual.

[blaksheba]

This episode was much better than last week's.  

 

But I have a strange question.  While I was watching (in NYC), I was also watching Homeland on the computer.  At one point, I turned to the TV and it looked like Fox forgot what show they were running, because it was Gotham; I thought it was a commercial, but it was going on for quite a long time.  I went back to Homeland and then Sleepy Hollow came back on.  WTF?  I felt as crazy as Carrie (and if you watch Homeland, you know what I mean).

The Gotham scene was an extended promo for next week's Gotham  episode.

 

Somewhere at the beginning of the Sleepy Hollow episode, (or the end of Gotham), an announcer mentioned that they would be a scene from the upcoming epi. That reminded me of when AMC was trying to promote Comic Book Men or Hell on Wheels and would only show the preview for the next week's Walking Dead episode during the middle of CBM or HoWs to ensure viewers would watch at least half of the new show.

 

This was weird for me since Sleepy Hollow is already an established show and the promo seemed super-long. I'm not sure how big the audience is for Gotham (or how small the audience for SH has become), but it was as if the network was trying to lure the die-hard Gotham fans into watching SH. But, then again, it might be vice versa; the promo was intended to get die-harder SH viewers to watch Gotham.

 

IDK, I just 2nd your thought on this, Neurochick.

[BlueJay81]

 

Add me to the list of people who don't find Hawley attractive in the slightest. I also keep hearing people swoon over his 'sexy southern accent', but it sounds to my ears like his 'accent' comes and goes.

I didn't even notice the accent until this episode and then only at the beginning. He reminds me of Charlie Hunnam in a way, must be the scruffy beard and blonde hair but then Charlie Hunnam cleans up pretty good, maybe Hawley just needs to shave. Though I think he may look like a teenage boy without the facial hair.

[rue721]

I did sort of almost kind of maybe like how it seemed that the necklace had some sort of control over her and she seemed to be magically drawn to or bound to baby Moloch. Which could theoretically add a layer of complexity to this whole "which side is she on" thing.

 

I agree with what you wrote, but I want to add that Katrina also has to have some power or influence, too, or else it doesn't even matter what the "shocker" is about what side she's on, since she's going to be ineffectual whichever side she takes. Also, she's been used as a pawn and basically passed around with no will of her own -- even when she went back to Abraham in this episode, the show undermined her agency in that decision by making it all part of some Dastardly! Plan! of Henry's. Where's the shock in her being used as a pawn *some more*?

[cynic]

If nothing else I am enjoying John Noble as Henry. That man is having fun with the role and it shows. He's just amazing as usual.

This show is actually making me dislike watching John Noble, which is sad. I loved him on Fringe and was so excited when he was cast here, but I can't stand the way Henry, Katrina, and the Crane family drama has eaten the show.

I'm hoping for a zombie cure

I'm not. I loved Andy, but John Cho deserves better than to play the fifth banana in this mess. He should be starring in his own show. It's too bad Selfie was cancelled. Despite its terrible title and shaky pilot, it actually was a lovely little show with a lot of sweetness and shades of one of my favorite "gone too soon" comedies, Better Off Ted. Plus, the chemistry between Gillan and Cho was great. Hope everybody from Selfie finds work soon. Edited November 12, 2014 by cynic

[Dobian]

This was weird for me since Sleepy Hollow is already an established show and the promo seemed super-long. I'm not sure how big the audience is for Gotham (or how small the audience for SH has become), but it was as if the network was trying to lure the die-hard Gotham fans into watching SH. But, then again, it might be vice versa; the promo was intended to get die-harder SH viewers to watch Gotham.

 

Almost always the rookie show follows the established show to build an audience, but FOX recognized at the start that Gotham was unique and would bring in a large audience of Batman fans.  The numbers have bared this out, as Gotham has had much higher ratings than Sleepy Hollow this season so far.

 

While I'm okay with the main plot of Sleepy Hollow this season, I see the show starting to play this romantic merry-go-round with Ichabod, Abbie, Jenny, Katrina, Abraham, Hawley.  That sort of thing can kill a show.They've kind of written themselves into a corner by making Katrina a regular.  The dynamic between Ichabod and Abbie has already changed, as she is now a third wheel with the two of them instead of it being her and Ichabod as partners.  I'm guessing that's why they are sending Katrina back to Abraham and her demon baby, to get her out of the way so Ichabod and Abbie can get back to being partners again.  But how long can they keep doing this?  And they are conceding that there will be no romance between Ichabod and Abbie by throwing Hawley into the mix.  But of course that too would impact the Ichabod/Abbie dynamic as he would be a third wheel with the two of them.  Sleepy Hollow is turning into Port Charles.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Dobian

[OakGoblinFly]

Ugh!  I just can't with this show any more.  You finally, finally have Katrina become useful and NOT a damsel in distress only to have her go BACK to Abraham and Henry? 

 

And STILL no Jenny or Irving (though to be fair, Hawley did not annoy me this episode).  I hope that the trailers aren't just teasing us and that next week does indeed focus on Jenny and Abbie.

 

I have been extremely disappointed in this season - everything feels forced and it is missing that spark/charm from season one. I wish that the powers-that-be would forget about the Crane family drama and stop focusing on Henry and his Big Bad Evil Plan, it's dragging down the entire show.  Please, please bring back the show that I fell in love with.

[Neurochick]

I think this show is getting "New York Undercovered" which was a Fox show as well, and look how well that turned out.  Some folks never learn.  If you have a show with POC characters, LEAVE THEM ALONE and stop trying to go for a "broader" audience; that audience ain't watching Fox, they're watching HBO.

[phoenics]

Southerngirl, thanks for bringing that over. So the Succubus was wearing teal like Abbie and so was mimicking both Katrina and Abbie to Crane. You're really making me have to watch this epi. *sigh* lol

Wait - what? I thought in the scene with Crane she was wearing a black corset?

What teal shirt? And was Abbie's shirt teal?

Wait - huh?

Can someone point me to these screencaps everyone keeps mentioning of the succubus head tilt? I still don't think the writers really put that in there - that would be too much like right - but okay - now I'm curious.

[Yolapukka]

I tend to think the long run plan of the show includes doing a very slow burn with Abbie and Ichabod and part of that involves bringing his marriage to Katrina to an end but doing so with an actual arc, rather than abruptly and not writing that end as a foregone conclusion from the start. Maybe they will write her character off after that point, villainize her or turn her into a helpful spectre in the afterlife. (If they do I hope she's always cloaked in swirling mist so that Party City wig perched on her head looks less awful.)  Her character is always so very off-putting that at this point I can no longer dismiss it as poor chemistry or ham-handed writing or casting that missed the mark. There is nothing epic about the love between the Cranes. She lies and manipulates constantly, he seems to trust and respect her less with each episode and shows his (decreasing) devotion by behaving like he just inhaled something stupifying. I do have to wonder if part of the reason they have been so subtle in depicting Ichabod and Abbie being drawn together is they don't want to commit themselves to it too strongly because of fears of pushback from the network.  I'm actually glad that instead of having a married man pine for another and turning Abbie into the other woman, whether as a mistress or via an emotional affair, they they seem to be writing the Cranes as falling apart first. Besides which I don't need Ichabod and Abbie to be a couple for the show to work for me. They have chemistry that works on every level, romantic is the least of it.  

 

I don't care for Hawley and Abbie because of the Jenny factor and I don't see them as people who would be drawn to one another beyond physically. Whether he's a spoiler or a fallback to taking the Ichabbie route, I don't look forward to the show going there.

Edited November 13, 2014 by yuggapukka

[apgold]

 

I tend to think the long run plan of the show includes doing a very slow burn with Abbie and Ichabod and part of that involves bringing his marriage to Katrina to an end but doing so with an actual arc, rather than abruptly and showing that end as a foregone conclusion from the start, maybe they will write her character off after that point, villainize her or turn her into a helpful spectre in the afterlife. (If they do I hope she's always cloaked in swirling mist so that Party City wig perched on her head looks less awful.)  Her character is always so very off-putting that at this point I can no longer dismiss it as poor chemistry or ham-handed writing or casting that missed the mark. There is nothing epic about the love between the Cranes. She lies and manipulates constantly, he seems to trust and respect her less with each episode and shows his (decreasing) devotion by behaving like he just inhaled something stupifying. I do have to wonder if part of the reason they have been so subtle in depicting the characters being drawn together is they don't want to commit themselves to it too strongly because of fears of pushback from the network.  I'm actually glad that instead of having a married man pine for another and turning Abbie into the other woman, whether as a mistress or via an emotional affair, they they seem to be writing the Cranes as falling apart first. Besides which I don't need Ichabod and Abbie to be a couple for the show to work for me. They have chemistry that works on every level, romantic is the least of it.

 

I think this is their plan, too but the dissolution of a marriage/or the way the writers have chosen to depict this has not been compelling to watch - there's too much waffling going on on Ichabod's part and the propping of Katrina isn't helping this at all.  

 

It only frustrates the viewer and they want her to either be a)evil  b)die or c)a&b

 

I hope that the Crane marriage will be done by the season end and he can move on with his life.