S05.E04: Slabtown

[ghoulina]

We thought you were being eaten by dogs man!!

 

And then they pan to the two little chihuahuas! Ahhhh, I need some of that old humor mixed back in. 

[Pete Martell]

Dear God, I hope not. That preview left me just as apprehensive as this episode did. One "bad" or boring episode isn't going to ruin my love of this show. Every season has them (*Cough*ArrowontheDoorpost*cough*), but then usually you get something good the next week. But to come off this episode feeling so "meh" and then seeing a bunch of Abraham bellowing next week just makes me a bit nervous for the direction of this show. 

 

I'm less bothered with this situation because I can write it to not caring about a lot of the characters involved. That may be one of the benefits of the split format, I don't know. My problem is when I care about most of the people involved but still hate/am bored by the writing. That's why I contemplated quitting at the end of season 3. 

[Primetimer]

A new cast of characters at an Atlanta hospital show us where Beth's been all this time.

Read the story

[Pete Martell]

That's really what the problem boils down to, terrible acting aside.  It's like they came up with a germ of an idea "Hey, let's set up another survivor group in a hospital.  What are they doing there?  Um, laundry?" and didn't really flesh it out in any way that made any logical sort of sense.  Apparently, they're going to all this trouble for five or six guards and maybe four patients?  It could have been really interesting, had there actually been any real sense of an entire community there.  Or if they were trying to do something medical there.  Zombie experiments?  Breeding?  Any of the half dozen speculations floated before this episode that turned out to be far more interesting than what they were actually doing.  Show us how they're surviving in the heart of a decimated city where you can't just outrun the walkers into the woods.  There could have been a story there.

 

But no, let's run with another leader whose motivations don't really make any sense other than just wanting to wear a pristine uniform and run around slapping people.  Throw in a mix of spineless henchmen and evil rapey tropes that offer absolutely nothing new.  This might have worked in the first or second season when we haven't already been down this road.  But now we've seen it all done before and by much better actors with fewer plot holes to try to work around.

 

The main difference for me is the compressed format. Not that a compressed format should give a pass to bad writing (I'm really glad they didn't have forced breeding stories, but otherwise I agree the motivations were vacuous), but I'll take a compressed 2-3 (however many) episodes over similar plots that went on for an eternity. David Morrissey is a wonderful actor, much better than whoever played Dawn, but no amount of talent could make the 14 or 15 episodes he was in feel like anything but a huge boring anticlimax to me. The season 3 material in particular was so poor that the only good memories I have are his fight scene with Michonne and that they gave him trousers that showed off his nice rear end.

 

At least now it's out of the way faster. 

 

I think it's time to move away from the trope of crazy/dangerous people who are leaders post-ZA. I hope we're getting them so much now because this is an end to them. Otherwise I'm not sure how much further they can take it. I'm imagining a plot where Beth, Sasha, and Glenn enroll in a dance school to help learn new fighting techniques against zombies, only to realize it's run by one of those Dance Moms from hell.

[Milaxx]

I have been thinking that maybe Daryl and Carol came across Noah who told them about the hospital and Beth. Carol decided to play victim and to get inside the hospital to help Beth escape when the rest of the group comes to the rescue.

 

I thought about that but unless the hospital where they are keeping Beth captive is really close to the church, I can't imagine Darryl leaving them behind. I also can't imagine Beth waiting in the woods for Darryl to tell her she could come out now once they reunited with Rick & co.

[cal]

I was worried about this episode because it was going to be Beth-centric.  I didn't think it would reach the same level as the others.  And I was right, after the first 3 episodes being so kick-ass, this one was a let down.  Was the opportunity for suspense there?  Sure.  You have the whole waking up in the unknown, the psycho leader Dawn, the rapey guards, the creepy doctor, the walker maze in the basement....it's all there.  But the suspense wasn't really there.  It missed the mark for me.  There were a handful of moments that were worth watching - once - but this is one of those episodes that I'd flip past if I came across a rerun while channel surfing.

 

I want to care about Beth.  I really do.  I like the idea of Beth.  I like the theoretical concept of Beth.  But even with that, I have a really hard time caring about her.  Maybe the writers have done a poor job in fleshing out her character.  Maybe EK just can't pull out the nuances that would give the character depth.  Maybe it's both.  It's not like Beth has been stagnant, the character has had growth, she's evolved from the suicidal farmgirl and yet....she still feels like an animated cardboard cutout.  I don't love her and I don't hate her.  I want to see more out of her instead of just seeing more of her.  Then I will care.  Maybe.

Edited November 3, 2014 by cal

[tv echo]

Even though I really missed Rick & the gang, I found this Beth episode surprisingly watchable and suspenseful.  It was interesting to see the different group dynamic of this other bunch of survivors (but one episode was enough of them - maybe one more just to finish them off).  Beth was unfazed and a bit creepy at times.  She smiled when they handcuffed her on the ground as she watched Noah get away.  And there was that nice surprise with Carol at the end.

 

The core of the hospital group was in the hospital when the walkers overran the city and stayed there out of necessity and fear.  The cops were there because the hospital was in the process of being evacuated.  Then they had to go out to get more supplies.  I think they started out saving people they found when they were out on their foraging missions, which ended up having to be farther and farther away from the city.  They originally saved people out of good intentions.  However, once Dawn took over, in her attempt to retain power over the group, she got it all twisted so that they only saved 'weaker' people that she could control and she let the guards get away with rape for the 'greater good'.  She probably thought she was preserving as much of the human population as she could in anticipation of an eventual rescue.  The people saved had to earn their keep, hence the working at various jobs.  I found Dawn to be a different kind of bad 'leader' from Gareth or the Governor.  I think the point was to show what happened to a group that didn't have a strong leader.

 

Beth doesn't bother me as much anymore.  I don't want every female character on the show to act or react the same way.  So what if she likes to sing?  The point of the Caravaggio painting is to show that maybe just surviving is not enough - you still need to keep your soul, which to some people means appreciating stuff like good art and music.  Of course, the doctor then turned out to be a selfish coward.  But at least Beth showed spine and smarts in this episode.  I don't think she intended to kill the doctor.  After he tricked her, she knew that she couldn't trust him anymore and armed herself just in case.  Maybe the point of Beth is to show that you can't judge a book by its cover.  In any event, I have a feeling that she's doomed anyway.

 

Like others here, I'm also hoping Carol and Darryl ran into Noah and came up with a plan where Carol would get inside as a Trojan Horse and Darryl would go get Rick & the gang.  Unfortunately, we have to sit through an episode of Abraham, Eugene and the bus tour first.  I still like Glenn & Maggie as a couple.  Too many TV shows put a couple together and then split them apart to create drama, either through a love triangle or by killing off one of them.  I like that this couple is still a solid couple - of course, TWD will likely succumb to the easy out of killing off one of them for the dramatic effect.  Also, Glenn is the only Asian character on the show. 

 

I can't believe that, with all that traveling about over the past four seasons, our survivors are still in the Atlanta area.  It'll  be a nice change to leave the State of Georgia finally and go somewhere else, even if it's to Washington, D.C.

Edited November 3, 2014 by tv echo

[kelnic86]

When Noah was talking about his uncle, did anyone else think he was talking about Morgan? That thought crossed my mind.

 

Also, I'm still a bit confused as to why that lady cop slapped Beth the first time. She was mad at the doctor for not being able to save that guy that fell from the roof and then she slaps Beth? What for? I know that Gorman said something about "she should've been mine." Did the doctor "claim" Beth? Even so, i still don't understand what slapping Beth had to do with anything. And why was the lady cop so adamant about saving that guy anyway? It was never fully explained.

[SimoneS]

It is inconceivable that Morgan is Noah's uncle so I hope that they writers don't go there. Morgan was with his son, Dwayne and then by himself. I cannot imagine where he would find a nephew.

[mandolin]

My biggest problem with this episode, and this type of episode, is the focus on just one character. I didn't like it last season, but I struggled through because the episodes usually had at least two of "my people" at a time. People we'd known and cared about. The only person I could have cared about in this episode was Beth. I, personally, care very little for her. She's fine in the background, but when the people that are the heart of the show for me are nowhere to be seen, I get bored. I'd rather see 20 minutes of each storyline than 40 of one person.The shot of Carol at the end was like, "oh, hey, you survived this episode, here's your reward."

 

I know we aren't technically missing goings-on with the other group because what's happening here was happening when the first 3 eps were. But WHY are they doing this storyline? Is it going to move us forward in any way? Is it to add Noah to the cast? I'd rather have seen him with Father PeePants or stumbling alone in the woods. It feels like a wasted 40 minutes in an already too short season of 16 episodes.

 

I know people don't necessarily care for Abe, et al, but at least they are on a mission. This episode felt like a stumbling block to slow something else down.

[JackONeill]

Are they ever going to get out of Atlanta?  Ever?

 

Know the old saying: go around your ass to scratch your elbow.  That's our crew.  They have walked and walked and walked and they're still in the same frigging spot.

 

And now (and looking at the Abraham story next week), they're split up and in jeopardy.  Rick will split the group, leaving some at the church with Judith, to go save Beth and Carol, and then the Church will get attacked while they're gone.

 

The same thing keeps happening and happening on this show.  Hey, maybe they should all stay together, but Nooooooooooooo.

[Pete Martell]

The split-up doesn't bother me, because the last time they kept the group together, they didn't write for half or 2/3 of them (season 3), and I thought the reasons for the splits made sense (Daryl was in a rush and Carol went with him, Abraham was going no matter what and Glenn and Maggie were trying to keep the peace/not sure about Rick), but I agree with you that they can't keep doing this over and over.

[diebartdie]

Also, I'm still a bit confused as to why that lady cop slapped Beth the first time. She was mad at the doctor for not being able to save that guy that fell from the roof and then she slaps Beth? What for? I know that Gorman said something about "she should've been mine." Did the doctor "claim" Beth? Even so, i still don't understand what slapping Beth had to do with anything. And why was the lady cop so adamant about saving that guy anyway? It was never fully explained.

That made no sense to me either and something else I didnt understand what where Joan came from? At the beginning of the episode, Beth and the Doc are taking a body to dispose of it in one of the silliest, least hygenic ways I have ever seen when he stops to talk to Officer Tight Hairbuns and Beth wanders down the hallway a bit. She notices Officer Lollipop saunter out of a room, Beth walks up to that room, seens another woman in there, a younger woman with straight hair who does not speak to Beth, just closes the door on her. The implication was that Officer Lollipop had been doing something nefarious with that woman. Later, Joan shows up being unwillingly escorted in by Officer Lollipop and Officer Cypher, she's been bitten, she's pissed and Officer Lollipop calls her a whore and makes toward her clearly intending to beat her up. After they cut off her arm, Beth asks her "what did he do to you", Joan wont say.

 

So I dont get where the woman with straight hair went, I dont get where Joan came from, I dont want to re-watch to find out if my eyes were playing tricks on me...I really did not like this episode one bit. Nothing made sense! Last season they made such a perfect set up with that creepy funeral home, the bones were THERE, not back in freeking zombie clogged ATLANTA. Ugh. The character of Beth does not work as a stand alone, none of that shit with the gun worked for me at all. I could have bought her making a few shots or I could have bought her doing something like shooting the zombies outside in the leg so they fell down but seriously, falling down on that big pile of rotting bodies + head shot after head shot in a dark, huge lower level + continued head shots (how many shots in a hand gun?) outside after everything that happened before...oh it was so bad. So bad.

[SimoneS]

I don't mind the group getting split up when horrific happens like when the farm was attacked and then the prison. It feels organic. But having Maggie and Glenn go off with Abraham and his group because of Eugene's claim to have a cure feels fake.

 

About them getting out of Georgia, I think that is a tough ask. It is not like they can walk or drive straight up north. They have herds of walkers and other survivors all around them and they have to find food and safe haven, especially with Judith. What they need are a few tanks so they can run over the walkers that they encounter.  

[JackONeill]

This show can be frustrating, and last night's episode didn't help.  Look, I had no major problem with the show; yes, as I think everyone agrees, the acting was weak.  But I have no problem with psychological, Twilight Zone-type shows.  But this show veers so widely between those and the spike-to-the-head-and-bloody-gore shows that sometimes you don't know what you're walking into.  In addition, you have the cartoon show, brought to you courtesy of Abraham and his stalwart team.

 

I don't think the writers are up to the Twilight Zone level of writing (and I mean the original TZ, not the bastardized later one).  I mean, that's what I think the whole Governor was supposed to me, a psychological riff, with all kinds of mind-games (heads in fish tanks, daughters in walls, a megalomaniac).  But. largely, the story fell flat.  And last night's episode is another sterling example.  I mean, why were they doing what they were doing?  What was the motivation?  And the characters (and maybe it's because of the actors) didn't really sell me on the dread.

 

I think most of us want the Rick kicking ass stories, and that's what the show DOES well.

 

I think the problem is that the cast is TOO big.  And to accommodate everyone the writers have to take us on these side journeys.  That'd be okay if the side journeys were interesting.

[Tippi Blevins]

I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, fearful that Beth would break into song. I actually like Beth okay, but a whole episode about her is just... too much. I did like that she seemed to be on her way to kill someone. Wussy doctor? Demented Dawn?

 

In her couple of minutes of conscious screen time, I thought Joan was an interesting character. I wish she'd made it. But at least she got to take out that gross cop. You did the world a favor, ma'am.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Tippi Blevins

[HalcyonDays]

Semi-minor nitpick for me. When Beth was grinding up that tablet with the mortar and pestle, mixing it with water and injecting it - would that even really kill the doctor-patient? It was such a small dose. I mean, first of all, the Clozapine or whatever it was, was in pill format, which means it is most effective when absorbed by the stomach. Second, each pill contains a precise dose. Beth semi-ground up the pill, barely mixed it with water and injected a very small amount of it.

 

There is no way that amount of drug would kill him - he had the equivilent of small piece of the end of the pill injected into him. Nowhere near the strength of the pill itself. I can only think that that particular drug cannot be injected into a body, even in tiny amounts, or that Beth actually introduced an air bubble into the syringe.

 

For some reason, I was under the impression that the drug that Beth injected, interacted with what the patient was already on, which is what killed him. Anyway, just my nitpick.

[mightysparrow]

I really tried to give the actress and the character a chance.  Believe me when I say that I did.  I endured (though I skip in my season marathons) the two boring episodes with Daryl.  I blamed PTSD, the writers, bad lighting, Daryl's breath, the extras playing the zombies, the one-eyed dog, and society for the lack of there being anything remotely interesting about Beth.  But now, I just can't anymore.  Emily is not a good actress and this was probably my very least favorite episode of TWD hands down.

 

I am going to skip the critique of the hospital storyline.  Trite and ridiculous.  Nuff said.  But Beth?  Seriously I decided that she must have been raised during Herschel's drunk period because she's such a loser.  How, after 5 years with Rick and Company, where even the little kids can fight their way out of most situations, does she jump back like that because a walker comes to the window?  How, after the death and literal dismemberment (remember that whole thing with your dad's head getting chopped off) that she's witnessed, does she tremble and recoil at some random surgical procedure?  How, after fighting off the Governor's henchmen who came at them with AK's, grenades and tanks, does she get stopped in her tracks by some broad slapping her face?  And seriously, after eating snake with a chaser of moonshine with Daryl, how does she portray even nominal culinary distaste?   Beth is an idiot - not at all a badass, who once again had to wait for someone to save her.  So she landed a couple of headshots - girl grew up on a farm, big whoop.  Hell Carl can do the same.

 

And Emily. I don't wish you any harm.  I'm sure you're a nice person, but dear call the CW and get off my AMC, paid cable, viewing.  I kept thinking that if the same thing happened to Maggie, Sasha or Michonne - the tension would have been much higher, the cop would have lost his penis long before zombie girl could get him, and the hospital would be burning to ground in the rearview mirror of the hotwired vehicle.  Instead we got MumblySue sauntering from room to room and saying nothing except, "I can sing.  I sing."

 

This is a good comment.  I wish I had been able to write something this good but I was incoherent with rage and boredom last night.

[Pete Martell]

 

Also, I'm still a bit confused as to why that lady cop slapped Beth the first time. She was mad at the doctor for not being able to save that guy that fell from the roof and then she slaps Beth? What for? I know that Gorman said something about "she should've been mine." Did the doctor "claim" Beth? Even so, i still don't understand what slapping Beth had to do with anything. And why was the lady cop so adamant about saving that guy anyway? It was never fully explained.

 

I don't think she was slapping her because the doctor "claimed" her, she was just there and an easy outlet for frustrations.

 

This is what the actress said (I put the interview in the media thread):

 

It’s not even Beth’s fault, and I just slap her. [Laughs] You know, I think that is a little misplaced anger in that. But Dawn probably sees herself in Beth. It’s like that mean coach that screams at their athlete and is aggressive and rude and a lot of times people who are abusive and mean, they don’t know that there’s anything wrong with that behavior. And Dawn may be thinking that she’s just toughening Beth up. And she’s preparing her for what the harsh reality is in this specific place. Better Dawn than anyone else. Better Dawn take the hard hand and teach Beth how to be than one of these other guys that Dawn probably does not trust at all.

[Pete Martell]

 

I am going to skip the critique of the hospital storyline.  Trite and ridiculous.  Nuff said.  But Beth?  Seriously I decided that she must have been raised during Herschel's drunk period because she's such a loser.  How, after 5 years with Rick and Company, where even the little kids can fight their way out of most situations, does she jump back like that because a walker comes to the window?  How, after the death and literal dismemberment (remember that whole thing with your dad's head getting chopped off) that she's witnessed, does she tremble and recoil at some random surgical procedure?  How, after fighting off the Governor's henchmen who came at them with AK's, grenades and tanks, does she get stopped in her tracks by some broad slapping her face?  And seriously, after eating snake with a chaser of moonshine with Daryl, how does she portray even nominal culinary distaste?   Beth is an idiot - not at all a badass, who once again had to wait for someone to save her.  So she landed a couple of headshots - girl grew up on a farm, big whoop.  Hell Carl can do the same.

 

She's not in the bubble she was in on the farm, or the prison, or even with Daryl. She's alone and knows anything she says or does could be the end for her. She's never been in a direct role before. She's never done any type of surgery. She has someone's life in her hands (or partially in her hands) and knows she could be beaten if she does the wrong thing, or even if she does the right one.

 

The threat of weapons from inside said bubble (which only really burst when the prison fell, something she probably hasn't even fully processed) must be different from getting hit in the face, knowing you can't defend yourself, and being told that you deserve to be beaten. And this happens again and again.

 

As for being afraid of walkers, I think when your defenses are lowered they get to you more, like what happened with Carl after the prison fell.

 

I agree with some of your points, but I liked that she was afraid and unsure. I don't think it matters that much how long she was around bad-ass people - she's never been in that position herself, and even if she was, bad-ass people can break in that type of environment. 

This show can be frustrating, and last night's episode didn't help.  Look, I had no major problem with the show; yes, as I think everyone agrees, the acting was weak.  But I have no problem with psychological, Twilight Zone-type shows.  But this show veers so widely between those and the spike-to-the-head-and-bloody-gore shows that sometimes you don't know what you're walking into.  In addition, you have the cartoon show, brought to you courtesy of Abraham and his stalwart team.

 

I don't think the writers are up to the Twilight Zone level of writing (and I mean the original TZ, not the bastardized later one).  I mean, that's what I think the whole Governor was supposed to me, a psychological riff, with all kinds of mind-games (heads in fish tanks, daughters in walls, a megalomaniac).  But. largely, the story fell flat.  And last night's episode is another sterling example.  I mean, why were they doing what they were doing?  What was the motivation?  And the characters (and maybe it's because of the actors) didn't really sell me on the dread.

 

I think most of us want the Rick kicking ass stories, and that's what the show DOES well.

 

I think the problem is that the cast is TOO big.  And to accommodate everyone the writers have to take us on these side journeys.  That'd be okay if the side journeys were interesting.

 

I think with the 16 episodes instead of 13, the larger cast isn't a bad idea, as it gives the actors more of a break and allows for more experimentation. It mostly depends on the quality of the writing. For instance, I thought the story with Lizzie and Mika was a harrowing story, and one that never would have worked in a group format. 

 

I like seeing Rick kick ass, but I also like that 60% of the cast are no longer barely used caricatures. Ideally there would be a balance. It's just never quite there. They need to figure out which characters can carry episodes.

[tv echo]

This review on SpoilerTV is interesting, esp. these parts:

The episode closes with Beth, who after a breakout attempt with Noah was recaptured, now armed with something sharp and shocked to see an unconscious Carol being wheeled in. I’m looking forward to seeing these two paired up. They’re both women who have come to gradually find their strength over the course of the series – opposites in personality in some ways but with common ground in that neither will be victims and both have a tendency to be underestimated.

*   *   *

Dawn staying in uniform contrasted with Rick, who donned his uniform for the first season, but changed to civilian clothes and gave his hat to Carl as he started to adapt to his new world. Dawn is still holding onto the hope of regaining their old world, and unlike Rick, hasn’t been able to let go of that illusion. This is driving her to desperation and causing her to sanction acts such as the rape of Joan or Beth, that she likely would have had no part of in her previous life.

http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/11/the-walking-dead-slabtown-review-and.html

[Timetoread]

She's not in the bubble she was in on the farm, or the prison, or even with Daryl. She's alone and knows anything she says or does could be the end for her. She's never been in a direct role before. She's never done any type of surgery. She has someone's life in her hands (or partially in her hands) and knows she could be beaten if she does the wrong thing, or even if she does the right one.

 

The threat of weapons from inside said bubble (which only really burst when the prison fell, something she probably hasn't even fully processed) must be different from getting hit in the face, knowing you can't defend yourself, and being told that you deserve to be beaten. And this happens again and again.

 

As for being afraid of walkers, I think when your defenses are lowered they get to you more, like what happened with Carl after the prison fell.

 

I agree with some of your points, but I liked that she was afraid and unsure. I don't think it matters that much how long she was around bad-ass people - she's never been in that position herself, and even if she was, bad-ass people can break in that type of environment.

 

I hear you but I have to disagree that Beth would be this timid at this point in the series.  While she wasn't ever completely alone nor engaged in fist fights, she has killed quite a few walkers, with and without a gun.  She's been privy to ALOT of bloodshed, flowing most often from people she cared about, to the point that she declared that she doesn't even cry anymore.  When Merle and Glenn were fighting, Beth broke up the fight with a gun.  When Daryl was drunk and manhandling her, she made HIM cry.  When the Governor showed up at the prison, Beth was shooting her rifle to defend it like everybody else.  As the prison was going down, in a hail of bullets and walkers, Beth left the safety of the bus to go find more children to save.  I'm not saying that she needs to morph into Michonne Jr., but I feel like part of this show's narrative has been that while we are privy to a lot of woobiness and emo moments, our group as a whole is very strong and each one of them has become road tested and road hardened to an extent.  I remember the scene when that horrible guy who came with Tyrese was proposing they attack "the woman and the kid" to take over the prison, and I was hoping that they would so that I could watch that woman (Carol) and that kid (Carl) drop all four of them in 30 seconds flat.

 

I was willing to endure one more Beth episode in the hopes that it would show that even the seemingly weakest of CDB should not be underestimated.  And in general that the will to live in humans is a very strong instinct, also not to be underestimated.  I've often pointed out that even a cornered Chihuahua will bare its teeth and fight for what it is worth because it has the RIGHT to try to live, even when the odds are against it.  I wanted Beth to respond to the slap by putting both opposing thumbs deep inside Dawn's eyesockets.  It would show some character growth and not make her look like dead weight that the group has been forced to carry around out of respect for Herschel.  She comes from strong people and should not, IMHO, be this prissy years into the apocalypse.

[Turtle]

I guess sanity in general is a relative concept, but if were to bet on it, even the few truly sane rulers, CEO's dictators, despots (whatever) are all a tad touched.

 

There's a school of thought that suggests the best leaders have a touch of narcissism.  But just a touch. 

 

The hospital: how in the wordl do they have power?

There are gas-powered generators.  If they have gas for cars, no reason why they couldn't get it for a generator.  Or someone could have rigged up a solar system.  Or potatoes!​

[Bruinsfan]

Everyone on TV tends to be a magical badass in moments like this. I don't think it was entirely realistic that Carol, even with more gun training than Beth, got so many perfect headshots and kills, from a great distance, at Terminus, but it's better TV.

Wasn't most of Carol's accurate shooting done sniper-style, from a distant location where she could brace her gun and take her time aiming through a scope without worrying about being shot or bitten herself?

 

I can't get over Beth suddenly being a qualified ER nurse. Hershel must have hired her as a vet tech when she was 8. Her skills would have been useful with Lori but she didn't menti....I now like Beth.

Bwah!

 

I was horribly bored by this episode, which is not usually a problem with TWD. I won't lay most of the blame at Emily Kinney's feet, I thought she did well enough but the writing just wasn't there for me.

[JackONeill]

 

I was willing to endure one more Beth episode in the hopes that it would show that even the seemingly weakest of CDB should not be underestimated.  And in general that the will to live in humans is a very strong instinct, also not to be underestimated.  I've often pointed out that even a cornered Chihuahua will bare its teeth and fight for what it is worth because it has the RIGHT to try to live, even when the odds are against it.  I wanted Beth to respond to the slap by putting both opposing thumbs deep inside Dawn's eyesockets.  It would show some character growth and not make her look like dead weight that the group has been forced to carry around out of respect for Herschel.  She comes from strong people and should not, IMHO, be this prissy years into the apocalypse.

 

 

Timetoread - I think most of us had the same reaction as you: Why did Beth just stand there after being slapped?  But, to her credit, she was new to the setting, new to the people, still trying to figure out things.  She also knew she was outnumbered (maybe not right then in that room).  I think in a situation like that it's better to stay low until you have a plan.

Edited November 3, 2014 by JackONeill

[Timetoread]

Dawn is still holding onto the hope of regaining their old world, and unlike Rick, hasn’t been able to let go of that illusion. This is driving her to desperation and causing her to sanction acts such as the rape of Joan or Beth, that she likely would have had no part of in her previous life.

 

That IS very interesting.  What is also cool is that Rick's most brutal attacks have been toward those who sanction this behavior.  He is very strong and is increasingly ferocious but he does not suffer bullies kindly.  I guess Abe was right, the new world needs Rick Grimes.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Timetoread

[Boofish]

This ZA world is full of weak people, the balance is finding interesting weak people and to me, that is not Beth. No one loves a romantic comedy more than me but in contrast, I hate Disney movies because they reduce women to sitting in a tower brushing their hair and talking to cute animals until some man comes along and rescue her. Be your own f'ing hero!! That's my problem with Beth. She is a disney princess right down to her big blue doe eyes and long blond hair. It's ok that she's weak and is not a badass but it's not ok that all of a sudden they are trying to make her one.

[Timetoread]

I think in a situation like that it's better to stay low until you have a plan.

 

You're right.  Just because that is MY go-to reaction for being slapped doesn't mean it's a good idea. :)  Still I wasn't so much speaking specifics as just wanting to see any sign of character growth.  Any sign at all.  Any microscopic, subatomic, indication that she has become even slightly less useless than she has always been and that the world has changed her at all - good or bad.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Timetoread

[car54]

I didn't mind this episode.   I tend to be interested in how when we journey outside the core group and their adventures, to how other survivors of the ZA have been living, the same issues appear with people doing insane things--that would never have happened before --to survive.

I am very curious about other parts of the world and how they are doing after all this, and we've been stuck in the woods and on the road with our little band of people, so I like the episodes that show other groups.  It seems like the mean people rise to the top --and sometimes decent people have to become tougher and harsher to keep their lives.

[mightysparrow]

This ZA world is full of weak people, the balance is finding interesting weak people and to me, that is not Beth. No one loves a romantic comedy more than me but in contrast, I hate Disney movies because they reduce women to sitting in a tower brushing their hair and talking to cute animals until some man comes along and rescue her. Be your own f'ing hero!! That's my problem with Beth. She is a disney princess right down to her big blue doe eyes and long blond hair. It's ok that she's weak and is not a badass but it's not ok that all of a sudden they are trying to make her one.

 

That's the thing isn't it?  In the end, Beth is going to be rescued, just like always.  Sure she can miraculously become Annie Oakley on demand or stand up to the biggest meanies in the ZA.  But Beth's purpose is TO BE RESCUED.  So she can bat her eyelashes and give one of her winsome smiles.  There's a reason why Disney is still in business and still churning out princesses in the 21st century.  That shit sells.  And it sells to women.  The most fanatical and aggressive Beth-lovers I've encountered are grown ass women. 

 

I don't know what this means, even though I have my ideas.  But I say it's time to lock this princess back in her tower and throw away the key. 

[Pete Martell]

Wasn't most of Carol's accurate shooting done sniper-style, from a distant location where she could brace her gun and take her time aiming through a scope without worrying about being shot or bitten herself?

 

The first one was. Some of the later ones I think were closer, and when she was hiding and also barely avoiding walkers. 

 

I'm not trying to disparage Carol. It's more that I can't hold magical shooting against one character when so many characters do it. If they were trying to act like Beth is the big dog and no one can compare, I'd be bothered, but I don't think they were.

[beaker73]

I don't think this episode had a prayer of being liked by viewers because most people dislike Beth.

[Constantinople]

Shouldn't the title of this episode been Slappytown, given how slaphappy Dawn was?

Not sure how Noah will survive much longer with that twisted or broken ankle, unless Daryl or someone else from CDB saves him.

 

I'm not understanding how Beth's kidnappers were able to get all the way back to Grady Hospital, which is in downtown Atlanta, pretty much unscathed. Weren't Rick and crew at least 30-40 miles out from the city? That's a pretty long drive when having to deal with a world of zombies around every corner.

Not to mention people like the Governor, the Claimers, Hipster Cannibals and that group that Rick & Co took out in Season 2 at thestore in the little town near the farm.

 

Rick, Glenn, T-Dogg and the others barely made it out of the city alive back in S1. Doesn't seem very realistic that this crew would be able make it into the city and the hospital safely.

I don't understand that at all, but it's good to know hospital orderlies will be in such high demand in the ZA

[ghoulina]

I think they started out saving people they found when they were out on their foraging missions, which ended up having to be farther and farther away from the city.  They originally saved people out of good intentions.  However, once Dawn took over, in her attempt to retain power over the group, she got it all twisted so that they only saved 'weaker' people that she could control and she let the guards get away with rape for the 'greater good'.  She probably thought she was preserving as much of the human population as she could in anticipation of an eventual rescue.

 

So this group had a previous leader before Dawn? See, I missed that. I don't know if it was because I kept nodding off, or if the backstory just wasn't told in a compelling and clear way, but I totally missed that. 

 

I know we aren't technically missing goings-on with the other group because what's happening here was happening when the first 3 eps were. But WHY are they doing this storyline? Is it going to move us forward in any way?

 

This is the big issue for me. Even last season, when some of those back-half episodes weren't that great, I still saw the direction we were going in. I could tell WHY they gave us this storyline. With this one, I'm at a complete loss. I'm going to hope that next time we revisit these people we figure it out, because I'm just not feeling it. 

[NurseGiGi]

She is a disney princess right down to her big blue doe eyes and long blond hair. It's ok that she's weak and is not a badass but it's not ok that all of a sudden they are trying to make her one.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn Beth into a Katniss Everdeen.  I really don't want TWD to turn into a YA nightmare.

 

I really don't have a problem with Beth's character, it's the actress that's the problem.  EK is a terrible actress which is ironic since she promotes herself as an actress/singer, neither of which she is good at.  The whole time in the hospital I was trying to figure out what was going on.  I never knew what she was trying to portray because she uses the same expression to show fear/surprise/joy/anger, etc.

 

EK reminds me of one of the cute Disney characters that have these huge round blue empty eyes.

Edited November 3, 2014 by NurseGiGi

[Pete Martell]

There's a scene on the roof with Beth and the doctor where he talks about the man, and how Dawn had kept them together and taken care of them and him (I guess when he was dying). I guess the idea is the other cops have no real respect for her and she knows it. 

 

I wish we'd seen more of that vulnerability in her performance. I thought she did OK, but not enough.

[mandolin]

This is the big issue for me. Even last season, when some of those back-half episodes weren't that great, I still saw the direction we were going in. I could tell WHY they gave us this storyline. With this one, I'm at a complete loss. I'm going to hope that next time we revisit these people we figure it out, because I'm just not feeling it.

That's the caveat for me, though..."next time we revisit these people." It's time taken away from what I consider the heart of the show. Of course, not everyone agrees with who they want to see, but for me, it's Rick and the people closest to him (Carl, Daryl, Michonne), but to me, it's his story. Always has been. That is also what keeps me from caring about what is going on in the rest of the world.

[TigerLynx]

I still don’t care about Beth, but I want Carol, Darryl, and Co., to kill Dawn, and her followers.  Is this the way the show is going to be from now on?  Rick's group continues to travel around, and one or all of them meet a group of people led by a psycho who are either psychos themselves or too weak to stand up to the head psycho in charge?

[Rosiejuliemom]

While I was kind of pissed to see Beth land headshot after headshot, I did love the cinematography and sound for that scene. It was wonderfully chaotic with, what I thought was, a nice little callback to Rick's lesson in why you don't fire a gun in an enclosed space without ear protection.

 

I didn't count the shots so I can't be sure, but I think Beth might have inherited Hershel's Infinite Ammo cheat.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Rosiejuliemom

[lookattheflowers]

A couple of things I haven't seen mentioned:

I'm really digging the call backs to past seasons. Last week Glenn mentioned Jim and this week when Beth is talking to Dawn about having hope in this new life- I can't remember the exact conversion- and Dawn grabs her wrist and you can see the scar on her wrist from her S2 suicide attempt.

Dawn on the elliptical barking out orders to Noah about having clean uniforms, I don't know why but it made me lol!

[Ellaria]

I think it's time to move away from the trope of crazy/dangerous people who are leaders post-ZA. I hope we're getting them so much now because this is an end to them. Otherwise I'm not sure how much further they can take it. I'm imagining a plot where Beth, Sasha, and Glenn enroll in a dance school to help learn new fighting techniques against zombies, only to realize it's run by one of those Dance Moms from hell.

 

There will always be the crazies in the post-ZA world but it doesn't make for great TV. In the span of a less than one year, the Gov re-appeared and then was killed, the Claimers appeared and were killed, Gareth and the Hipster Cannibals appeared and were killed and then Dawn and the Hospital Rapers show up. It gets old. There has to be a balance between the crazies and the "semi-normal" people that are trying to adjust and rebuild a new life. The show hasn't found that balance. Not saying that it is an easy balance to achieve but I wish that they would try a bit harder.

 

That's really what the problem boils down to, terrible acting aside.  It's like they came up with a germ of an idea "Hey, let's set up another survivor group in a hospital.  What are they doing there?  Um, laundry?" and didn't really flesh it out in any way that made any logical sort of sense.  Apparently, they're going to all this trouble for five or six guards and maybe four patients?  It could have been really interesting, had there actually been any real sense of an entire community there.  Or if they were trying to do something medical there.  Zombie experiments?  Breeding?  Any of the half dozen speculations floated before this episode that turned out to be far more interesting than what they were actually doing.  Show us how they're surviving in the heart of a decimated city where you can't just outrun the walkers into the woods.  There could have been a story there.

 

But no, let's run with another leader whose motivations don't really make any sense other than just wanting to wear a pristine uniform and run around slapping people.  Throw in a mix of spineless henchmen and evil rapey tropes that offer absolutely nothing new.  This might have worked in the first or second season when we haven't already been down this road.  But now we've seen it all done before and by much better actors with fewer plot holes to try to work around.

 

And that was the problem...it was the bare bones of an idea that wasn't properly developed. Because we have seen so much of the crazies and the dysfunctional communities that they create, I kept hoping for something new. We know that there are dangerous people out there. At this point, I'd rather see more of Father Gabriel and others like him...basically decent people who have survived despite being cowardly and selfish and by making lots of really poor choices. Those people can be just as dangerous as hipster cannibals and self-important cops.

[JackONeill]

 

I didn't count the shots so I can't be sure, but I think Beth might have inherited Hershel's Infinite Ammo cheat.

 

 

Watching the episode again may solve this, but I couldn't make myself watch it again.  But, I wonder if some of those headshots came from the cops who were chasing Beth.  I know the viewer didn't know they were then until the camera pulled back at the last minute.  But there was a moment when all you saw was Beth and the Walkers (and Noah hobbling along) and the camera pulled back and you saw some cops not too far behind Beth and I think they were shooting.  Right?  Wrong?  Does anybody even care?

[Nashville]

As far as power, if they were in Atlanta and it has cleared somewhat from the Zombies, they would be able to get millions of car batteries and a lot more gas then someone out in the country that just runs into random abandoned cars.  Hell just a hospital parking garage could probably sustain them in gas and batteries for a long time.

 

The water situation is a bit more suspect.  Maybe the hospital has a well?  I have a well and during last year's snowpocolypse all my neighbors were getting water from me as the local water supply was deemed not safe after a few days.

If there are millions of car batteries, they are dead batteries...which need to be charged up, which takes power from something else.

They can't have most of the building open for use, but with all the appliances and life support and cooking etc it might be harder than it looks. A 5 kw generator will use 1 gallon to 1 1/2 gallons of gas per hour. They've been there since the start?

Gas is also wanted by eveyone else that's alive. milton didn't even want to run the generators for the lemonade picnic because he needed the power for the "Research"

The battery thing doesn't bother me so much. Yeah, all those millions of batteries are dead, or well on the way - but a day or two hooked up to the solar collectors could restore them to working order. And it's entirely possible Grady has a ton more solar panels than what we saw in a couple of minutes on one rooftop.

What bothers me much much more can be summed up in one word - gasoline.

According to the story line, we're something like a year and four months into the ZA. Ask anybody with a motorcycle, or a lawn mower - gasoline doesn't stay good that long. It's highly volatile - of course - but that also means it breaks down quickly, especially when it sits static in a tank. After five or six months its volatility is WAY down, to the point it will barely (if at all) keep an engine running; I've had to drain my lawnmower's gas tanks after winter before my first spring mow for this specific reason. After a year? Gasoline turns into a shellacky mess that gums up tanks and intakes, and will snuff a lit match if thrown into a pool of it. There are gasoline stabilizers which can be added to a tank to slow down the "spoilage" - but you can't stop it.

So after a year and a half, the notion of Rapey Lou And the Boys In Blue ramming the roads in anything much more high-powered than a Prius or a golf cart is approaching laughability.

I have been thinking that maybe Daryl and Carol came across Noah who told them about the hospital and Beth. Carol decided to play victim and to get inside the hospital to help Beth escape when the rest of the group comes to the rescue.

I'm thinking something a little more prosaic:

• D&C go rip-assing off after the Crossmobile in the dark (hey, if Daryl is knocking out the taillights, he sure as hell isn't using the headlights).
• Because of unfamiliarity with the road, or ZA-introduced obstructions, or whatever - they crack up the car. Badly. And the Ossifers notice. Possibly they already had, and the wreck occurs during a high-speed pursuit.
• Daryl is able to avoid capture; Carol is not.
• The Kinkstone Kops load up Carol and proceed on their way to Grady - with Daryl following.
• On his way in, Daryl meets Noah on his way out, and Noah fills Daryl in on the Grady setup.
• Daryl decides they need additional numbers to crack this particular pecan, and heads back to the church with Noah in tow.
• Michonne, meet Noah; Noah, Michonne.

How, after 5 years with Rick and Company, where even the little kids can fight their way out of most situations, does she jump back like that because a walker comes to the window? 

Hey, at least she has good reflexes. And I think it could be successfully argued if you're standing flatfooted and unarmed and a walker lunges at you, NOT jumping back would indicate pretty shitty survival skills. :)

How, after the death and literal dismemberment (remember that whole thing with your dad's head getting chopped off) that she's witnessed, does she tremble and recoil at some random surgical procedure? 

Beth saw Herschel's head go humpty-dumpty from a distance, outside the Prison's perimeter fence - shocking, yes, but still a little different from being so close to the action you can tastes the smell of the fresh blood. I can see room for a little difference in reaction.

How, after fighting off the Governor's henchmen who came at them with AK's, grenades and tanks, does she get stopped in her tracks by some broad slapping her face?

You mean - why does unarmed Beth not slap back at the broad with a Glock on her hip? Can't imagine.

I'm neutral on EK - not a fan, nor a knocker - but while I'm not overly fond of her frequent Barney Google imitations, I'm not going to fault her for weak writing. She's acting Beth the way the director tells her to.

[SimoneS]

I'm thinking something a little more prosaic:

• D&C go rip-assing off after the Crossmobile in the dark (hey, if Daryl is knocking out the taillights, he sure as hell isn't using the headlights).
• Because of unfamiliarity with the road, or ZA-introduced obstructions, or whatever - they crack up the car. Badly. And the Ossifers notice. Possibly they already had, and the wreck occurs during a high-speed pursuit.
• Daryl is able to avoid capture; Carol is not.
• The Kinkstone Kops load up Carol and proceed on their way to Grady - with Daryl following.
• On his way in, Daryl meets Noah on his way out, and Noah fills Daryl in on the Grady setup.
• Daryl decides they need additional numbers to crack this particular pecan, and heads back to the church with Noah in tow.
• Michonne, meet Noah; Noah, Michonne.

 

I like your scenario. It is far more dramatic that the one that I proposed.

Edited November 3, 2014 by SimoneS

[JackONeill]

 

I'm neutral on EK - not a fan, nor a knocker - but while I'm not overly fond of her frequent Barney Google imitations, I'm not going to fault her for weak writing. She's acting Beth the way the director tells her to.

 

I agree.  The director runs the show.  I think, by now, if TPTB also agreed that EK isn't the best actress, she'd have been gone by now.  They either see something many here don't; or, possibly, they have plans for her character and it's too late to change actresses.

[kelnic86]

This ZA world is full of weak people, the balance is finding interesting weak people and to me, that is not Beth. No one loves a romantic comedy more than me but in contrast, I hate Disney movies because they reduce women to sitting in a tower brushing their hair and talking to cute animals until some man comes along and rescue her. Be your own f'ing hero!! That's my problem with Beth. She is a disney princess right down to her big blue doe eyes and long blond hair. It's ok that she's weak and is not a badass but it's not ok that all of a sudden they are trying to make her one.

While I do think this storyline will eventually lead to the group coming to rescue Beth. I just wanted to note that she did actively try to save herself this episode, instead of waiting for someone to find her. Utimately, it didn't work out, but at least she tried. I don't like damsel in distresses either and I love it when a female is able to be her own hero. I would like Beth to be that kind of person. I don't think she'll rise to the levels of Katniss Everdeen. That'll be a bit too much and unbelievable, imo, at this point in her character development.

 

I just hope they aren't trying to turn Beth into a Katniss Everdeen.  I really don't want TWD to turn into a YA nightmare.

 

Ha! I doubt that will happen. But Daryl did show Beth how to use his crossbow, so one does wonder...But, seriously, I think the writers are better than to rehash their version of a popular YA novel.

Edited November 3, 2014 by kelnic86

[JackONeill]

 

Nashville, on 03 Nov 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

    I'm thinking something a little more prosaic:

        D&C go rip-assing off after the Crossmobile in the dark (hey, if Daryl is knocking out the taillights, he sure as hell isn't using the headlights).

        Because of unfamiliarity with the road, or ZA-introduced obstructions, or whatever - they crack up the car. Badly. And the Ossifers notice. Possibly they already had, and the wreck occurs during a high-speed pursuit.

        Daryl is able to avoid capture; Carol is not.

        The Kinkstone Kops load up Carol and proceed on their way to Grady - with Daryl following.

        On his way in, Daryl meets Noah on his way out, and Noah fills Daryl in on the Grady setup.

        Daryl decides they need additional numbers to crack this particular pecan, and heads back to the church with Noah in tow.

        Michonne, meet Noah; Noah, Michonne.

 

I like your scenario. It is far dramatic that the one that I proposed.

 

 

I just don't see how all that could have happened in the time span.  I mean, does Daryl still have the car?  It didn't get that damaged?  Well, if he still has the car, why did he feel the need to walk to the church, instead of just drive up?  And just how close are they to Atlanta?  I mean the whole Daryl/Carol making like Smokey and chasing the speeding car just started the day before, right?  And Noah didn't look like he could force-march through the woods if they didn't have a car?  Not in the time they had, unless Atlanta is just around the next hill.

 

By the way, has anyone said this?  The skyline of the city - it sure didn't look like Atlanta.  I've lived here 40 years. 

[nodorothyparker]

I hate Disney movies because they reduce women to sitting in a tower brushing their hair and talking to cute animals until some man comes along and rescue her. Be your own f'ing hero!! That's my problem with Beth. She is a disney princess right down to her big blue doe eyes and long blond hair.

 

My husband has never had strong feelings one way or the other about Beth until last night and he made the same comparison, right down to the Disney princess in the tower and the doe eyes.  (We have a 5-year-old daughter who watches a lot of these movies.)  He took it a step further and predicted early on that she'd unable to rescue herself because "that's how these stories always work.  She'll make her cute little attempt and fail and then they'll all have to ride in and save her."

[Boofish]

I would like Beth better if they would just let her stay in her lane. You can't break bad when you look like Elsa and sound like Paris Hilton

[LilySilver]

When Noah was talking about his uncle, did anyone else think he was talking about Morgan? That thought crossed my mind.

 

Also, I'm still a bit confused as to why that lady cop slapped Beth the first time. She was mad at the doctor for not being able to save that guy that fell from the roof and then she slaps Beth? What for? I know that Gorman said something about "she should've been mine." Did the doctor "claim" Beth? Even so, i still don't understand what slapping Beth had to do with anything. And why was the lady cop so adamant about saving that guy anyway? It was never fully explained.

I didn't understand the part about Gorman saying she should have been his either--I mean I understood that he thought so, but I didn't understand what kept him from "having" her.  

 

Dawn wanted the doctor to save the guy because the guy was also a doctor, so more valuable than most injured people they find.  The Doctor didn't want to save him because he recognized him, knew he was a doctor (after Beth discovered the patient's identity and called the Doctor on it, he admitted the man was an oncologist from another hospital, whom he had known pre-ZA), and didn't want to compromise his own importance/power in the hospital group by adding another doctor on the scene.  The Doctor didn't necessarily know that Dawn knew the guy was also a doctor, and Dawn seemed to want to keep that a secret from the Doctor, since she really refused to give him a good reason to try hard to save him, just insisting that he did so.  Beth then finds the man's wallet in Dawn's office when looking for the key, with his hospital I.D., and she realizes what happened, why the doctor purposely had her kill the patient.

 

That's the thing isn't it?  In the end, Beth is going to be rescued, just like always.  Sure she can miraculously become Annie Oakley on demand or stand up to the biggest meanies in the ZA.  But Beth's purpose is TO BE RESCUED.  So she can bat her eyelashes and give one of her winsome smiles.  There's a reason why Disney is still in business and still churning out princesses in the 21st century.  That shit sells.  And it sells to women.  The most fanatical and aggressive Beth-lovers I've encountered are grown ass women. 

 

I don't know what this means, even though I have my ideas.  But I say it's time to lock this princess back in her tower and throw away the key. 

I'm not a big Beth fan, and I didn't love nor hate this episode.  But Beth knocks a guy over the head hard enough to knock him down if not out, keeping herself from being raped.  She has thought quickly enough to see that Joan is reanimating and will finish the job for her.  She sends Dawn into the scene to create a distraction so that she and Noah can use the plan she concocted (remember when she was looking at her sheets in her room?) to lower themselves down the shaft, where she protects them both through a horde of walkers and almost succeeds at effecting both their escapes.  She "rescued" Noah, who has been there for a year.

 

So yes, perhaps members of CDB will ultimately ride in and save her, but it seems to me that in the short time she's been there she's shown enough gumption for me to believe that she'd manage to get herself out eventually. She is certainly not waiting on anyone to come after her; she didn't go to Noah to help! please save! her--she went to him with a plan that involved his access to the laundry.

 

I don't think we were supposed to see her as doe-eyed, but rather pretty clever, tough, and resourceful.  Cute young blonds can be those things. 

 

With all the problems this episode had holding things together (from my perspective), Beth coming off as a Disney Princess just wasn't one of them. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by LilySilver