S04.E05: Breaking Glass

[Camera One]

Ha, I was wracking my brain trying to figure out what her "loss" was.  I guess I already have selective memory from Sunday.

[KAOS Agent]

You have to remember too that Jennifer Morrison gets an incredible amount of hate whenever she says something negative about Swan Queen, Regina's character or Neal. She knows at this point not to actually tell the truth as she sees it with regards to her character's interactions with those two. She just keeps her head down and shuts up about it. I would point out that in one of the interviews about this episode, even Lana remarked that Regina's abuse was a bit much and she felt really bad about it (I think this is on par with how Regina treated Henry back in Season 1 and how Lana made sure to give Jared a hug after every take). When the biggest Regina Kool Aid drinker around thinks it's gone a bit far, then you know that there is some awareness that it wasn't okay.  

 

And if I were a Frozen fan that had tuned in, watching a woman hurling abuse at another while she just sits there and takes it while Elsa/Anna is pretty much an afterthought, I'm not going to be eager to watch again next week. 

[Actionmage]

Sidney was no more a loss than that dang compact!  It all comes down to Regina 'had' it first and so she has dibs. Regina never cared or loved Sidney, even as he fell for her and killed for her. (Yes, for himself too, but he killed Leopold, his supposed romantic rival.) Sidney was a convenience. Regina survived just fine without him for two seasons/years.

 

I really hope Sidney smartens up and keeps away from Regina. If would be a hoot if he decided to return to being a Mayoral advisor! Maybe he could even advise a certain sheriff on her powers? The paper was still functioning; would Sidney's old job even be available?

[Camera One]

Yeah, I've never really understood Sidney's mindset.  Regina trapped him in a mirror through a wish gone wrong with never wanting to be apart from her, but why did it seem like he didn't mind being the Mirror back in the Enchanted Forest, always so loyal and complimentary to Regina?  And then in the season premiere, Regina opens his prison cell, and it looks like he's happy to see her?  Huh?  I can understand why his Cursed self in Season 1 might have been so loyal, but I don't understand how the writers see him.  Was he still obsessed with Regina and hung up on her?  Has he not given up winning her love?  His "betrayal" of Regina in this episode was only a surprise in the sense it should have happened so long ago.  

 

Of course, the writers have little to no interest in exploring his character.  I mean, how could he face Snow knowing what he did to Leopold after his kindness to him?  How would it feel free from the Mirror and from Regina after all this time? This could potentially be quite interesting.  As much as I like the Knave, his story was done in the spinoff and while I don't mind a cameo, giving him subplots every episode is a waste of neglected supporting characters on this show.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Camera One

[Bec]

I don't believe the show means to present Regina as anything more than bitchy and irrational

Yeah, that's what I think they were going for, too.

 

I think the show was also trying to parallel Anna/Elsa with Emma/Regina, with Regina being the one freezing people out (figuratively speaking). Which is why Emma was suddenly extra persistent like Anna, seeing good where everyone else see a monster and not giving up on people even when it gets ridiculous.

 

I mean, I know Regina has done way worse to Emma than Elsa to Anna. But I appreciate that friendship and sisterhood is apparently going to be a theme this season. What else is Emma gonna do? Draw a line in the sand? Let Regina stew and go evil some more? Perpetuate the old cycle of hating and taking revenge on each other and being enemies? How is that going to help?

 

Sure, Emma's being too kind to someone who doesn't really deserve her kindness, and it's not on her to keep Regina from going evil (that should be on Regina), but it's just more credit to Emma that she doesn't want to cause any hurt even to someone who has hurt her worse in the past. I liked that Regina visibly thawed when Emma offered her some love in the form of friendship.

 

People may harm you and cause terrible things to happen to you, but it's up to you whether you let that "ruin" your life.

Hear, hear! It just makes the good guys more awesome that they don't harp on and on about the evil characters ruining their lives. They pick up the pieces and move on. Unlike somebody... (*cough* Regina)

 

I would like to see Regina grow beyond the insufferable self-pity, too, but I can't really see her being able to change her old ways all by herself. It's just not how her character is - she always needed some nudges from other characters to make any progress. A friendship with Emma should help that along nicely. I like the idea upthread about Regina getting reminded of all the harm she has done to Emma and feeling remorse for it, but I think it'll take Regina growing to care for Emma more first to get to a place of remorse. For now she doesn't care enough about Emma yet, being confronted with the past at this point would just make Regina annoyingly huffy and indignant.

 

In any case, I sure like the Regina/Emma friendship far more than I ever liked the Regina/Robin romance (that was so meh to me).

[kili]

Regina trapped him in a mirror through a wish gone wrong with never wanting to be apart from her, but why did it seem like he didn't mind being the Mirror back in the Enchanted Forest, always so loyal and complimentary to Regina?

 

It was actually Sidney's wish that got him mirrored in the Enchanted Forrest. It may be that Sidney is one of the rare self-aware people who realized that he shouldn't blame others for his mistakes. While he may not have enjoyed being a mirror, he had seen enough wishes go wrong that he accepted his fate and moved on.

 

We don't know a lot about Sidney, but he seems to have suffered from being a Genie. He is so used to solitary - only interacting with others when they want him to fulfill their wishes. When Leo set Sidney free, Sidney didn't know what to do with himself. And then he got his first girlfriend - the first person showing him what he felt was love. Of course he was easy to dupe and fell hard. Before he could come to his senses, he was a mirror through his own fault. His only "friend" is Regina due to his own stupid wish. In Storybrooke, his actions are affected by the curse and he is imprisoned before the curse is broken. And then, his captor frees him and he's eager to return to the only relationship he really knows - servitude to Regina.

 

But, when Regina mirrors him, he comes to realize that she isn't his friend and that perhaps the mirroring isn't entirely his fault. Plus, he may realize that if she can put him in the mirror, she could have taken him out years ago. He finally recognizes that he needs to look after his own self-interests and betrays Regina who is never really going to let him go.

 

Sidney will still have issues because he's never had a real relationship with anybody. He only knows how to serve and he expects people to use him. He's also got no moral compass because he hasn't had much chance to have free will - he's just done what others told him to do.

 

He could be a very interesting character, but he's probably consigned to the villain since he dared to betray Woegina. He must pay.

[legaleagle53]

You're right -- that is going to be interesting to see, especially if Sidney has his own powers back.  His reaction after the Snow Queen dismissed him so casually once she had freed him from the mirror showed that he was genuinely confused by what she had done; he really has no idea what to do with himself now that he's not anybody's servant.

[Shanna Marie]

Sidney was no more a loss than that dang compact!

You know, that was a really nice compact. :-)

[kingshearte]

Well, the problem is that the writers would have us believe that Regina is *not* horrible and murderous, that Emma is a bad person who's done something awful to her and deserves to pay for it. I like Evil Regina too. I much preferred her to the current version, and I think Lana Parilla did a MUCH better job playing her evil and over the top rather than wishy-washy and fake-redeemed.

 

Regina has every right to be angry about...not murdering someone? Emma saving someone's life?

Yes!

 

I just wish I knew where they got this idea that good guys aren't allowed to ever get mad about what's done to them.

And yes! And also yes to the person who objected to the idea that being a good guy means you have to not only forgive past abuse, but continue to take it at any time going forward. It's infuriating.

[Mitch]

This episode is even more enjoyable in that I was imaging what all of you were going to say about the Regina/Emma thing.

 

I am a Regina fan and even I think it was a bit much. I think that it would have worked if not for the writers (I know, a big DUH.) First, if Emma and Regina had it out about the past it would have been more dramatic and made more sense...."I ruined YOUR life. Please, you would have killed me as a baby if you got your manicured hands on me. Your curse took me away from my family, you tortured my mother for an endless loop of 28 years, you were a royal biotch as soon as I stepped into town..and please, I know its you who wrote my cell phone number on the wall of the men's room at the Rabbit Hole!"  Then bicker, bicker, bicker...and then eventually Emma says, "I am not going to apologize for saving someone's life, though I know it was stupid as it could have screwed up the whole time thingie...but for all you did in the past I am more then willing to forget it because of that year you gave Henry and I . I mean, I know the memories werent real, but that was the best damn year of my life, and I will always have that...Ill just forget about the dating Flying Monkeys thing which for once wasnt your fault."

 

I don't thinks it odd that Emma wants to befriend Regina. I think she sees they are two sides of the same coin who will always have to deal with each other. 

 

One comment on this show. The ending with Hook and Emma..and I am not a Hook and Emma shipper, but I liked it just because it did what this show did best in S! before it became a Saturday morning cartoon commerical meant to sell Disney merchandise. It was quiet and melancholy.  The show itself is saturated in melancholy..the "Oh, arent the Charmings the most bestest couple on earth, " or about Rumples villany or about Regina's on again off again whatever she is supposed to be this week or the latest big bad, its underlying theme is not heros, its really about loss, and the choices a person makes in life because of that loss, which can make them good or bad, and how do you come back from that and become a whole person again, etc.  28 years were lost, identitys were lost, free will was lost, Regina lost herself, Rump lost his soul, people loose parents and children.   At its best the show is about loss and yes, hope, to go on. That Emma/Hook scene, quiet, no CGI, no yelling or scenery chewing, brought a little of S1 back and I liked it.

 

Oh, and the Snow Queen is a BAD ASS! I love that she strangles Regina, is not afraid of Rump and will not make a deal with him, and she does it all with a quiet sinister way.

[Leia1979]

Was there a deleted scene aired for this episode? I went looking for it this morning and came across this quite funny Tumblr recap of the episode instead. 

[buffynut]

Does Robin know that Marian is back only because Emma saved her from being murdered in the past by his new true love?

[HeimrArnadalr]

And if I were a Frozen fan that had tuned in, watching a woman hurling abuse at another while she just sits there and takes it while Elsa/Anna is pretty much an afterthought, I'm not going to be eager to watch again next week. 

I'm someone who started watching this show when I heard that Frozen was coming to it, and although I'm resolved to stick it out to the bitter end (of at least 4A) if I were a more casual fan I probably would feel this way. At least Frozen was featured more prominently in previous episodes, so that might help convince Frozen fans to stick around for the next episode.

 

[snip a bunch of stuff Kili wrote about Sidney]

I get the feeling that you've put more thought into Sidney with this post than the show's writers have since Season 1 ended.

[KingOfHearts]

And if I were a Frozen fan that had tuned in, watching a woman hurling abuse at another while she just sits there and takes it while Elsa/Anna is pretty much an afterthought, I'm not going to be eager to watch again next week.

 

 

I think casual viewers (and Frozen fans) would have found this episode to be a boring turnoff. Watching Regina pound Emma with insults with no rebuttal for half an hour is very taxing on the attention span. The Emma/Lily flashbacks weren't exactly entertainment either. The only intrigue in the episode lied with Snow Queen, Sidney, and the foster mom reveal at the end.

[WalkSoftly]

I wasn't sure if I wanted to tune back in this year and I regret having watched this weeks episode. It was like watching Sansa (A Game of Thrones reference-a captive and abused unwilling fiance)  beg for Joffrey's (a sick and evil murderous tyrant) love and foregiveness *ick* . Not even as horrid as GoT can be.. would it do this.  This was sick.  Disturbing. Uncomfortable. And not in a good way.  Definitely not a healthy portrayal of women.

 

And enough with the Neal references already. Geez. It's like being hit over the head again, and again, and again.

 

There are better ways to spend my time.

Edited October 29, 2014 by WalkSoftly

[regularlyleaded]

Not even as horrid as GoT can be.. would it do this.  This was sick.  Disturbing. Uncomfortable. And not in a good way.  Definitely not a healthy portrayal of women.

Word.

 

And enough with the Neal references already. Geez. It's like being hit over the head again, and again, and again.

Sooo much WORD.

 

There are better ways to spend my time.

Aaaand....Word ;)

If it makes you feel better there are about 5 pages worth of posts here of people who feel pretty much the same. Silver lining?

[WalkSoftly]

I actually thought the photograph of Neal & Emma together at the end could/WOULD HAVE BEEN poignant & sweet if it not been for all of the earlier Neal references..

Naming the baby Neal.. just .. what the hell were they thinking? I don't think anyone in Snow/Charming's position, and in their right mind would have done that. The name 'Neal' should have been reserved for if & when Gold/Belle had children (still a bit icky, but understandable) or if Emma had decided to name a child Neal. Neal was next to nothing to Snow & Charming .. he abandoned their daughter in a horrible way.. I can't imagine good & loving people, parents, easily getting over that to the point of naming their child after him.. that was just icky bizarre weird.

Edited October 30, 2014 by WalkSoftly

[Camera One]

I had hoped for an Emma flashback for so long, and I had always thought the episode would focus on Emma and her parents.  I wish "Breaking Through" focused on Emma/Snow instead.  I've been happy with the Emma/Charming stuff, but they have neglected and even damaged the Snow/Emma relationship and they could have at least tried to deal with it in this episode.

 

I think they could have done this while keeping the major events in place.  They could have started the episode with Emma talking to Henry, asking him about living at Regina's again, and she senses that he's lying about something but he isn't forthcoming.  Emma could have a short conversation with Hook about trying to talk to Henry to see if he's okay while they're sailing.  Snow would still have her issue with leaving the baby for a night with Charming, but Snow instead chooses to stay at home.  But Snow notices Emma is looking off, and asks about it. Emma doesn't tell her what is wrong.  They notice that Elsa has been missing all day, and Emma is getting ready to go look for her.  Realizing that her daughter needs her, Snow is finally able to let go of the baby for an evening and a beaming Charming takes care of the baby for the night (hijinx ensues... just kidding).  

 

Then, on the trail of Elsa, Snow could come to the realization that she has been all about the baby for 9 months and she has been neglecting Emma and she wants to know about her wonderful year in New York and also more about her childhood, if she's ready.  Emma could share her worries about Henry, and how she is finding it hard to live apart from him after a year together, which is something Snow could identify with.  Somewhere in the conversation, maybe as Emma reveals a little of her childhood from the flashbacks, Snow clues in that her words in the Echo Cave would have really hurt Emma, and she is genuinely horrified with herself.  Maybe the flashbacks could parallel Emma's worries about Henry... it could reveal how Emma had a history where she blamed herself when sometimes external factors are involved.  They could even use the Lily flashback but Lily leaves Emma one day and Emma thinks it's because of her.  

 

In the forest, Snow and Emma, Elsa and Regina (who will have her subplot with only Sidney and his betrayal) all converge, and the Snow Queen steals Regina's mirror.  The Snow Queen frees Sidney.  

 

And this all could lead to Emma remembering that she has that camcorder showing her as a teenager, so she digs it out... maybe discovers Lily left a note in the camcorder bag explaining why she left.  Then Emma watches the footage with Lily with Snow and Charming at the end and discovers the Snow Queen, so same cliffhanger.  Emma picks up Henry and Hook gives her a wink that everything should be okay.  Henry apologizes for not telling the whole truth to Emma since he's trying to help Regina get better and he needs to do a good show of it (ie, he thinks the stuff about finding the book's author is stupid as well).

Edited October 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Sure, Emma's being too kind to someone who doesn't really deserve her kindness, and it's not on her to keep Regina from going evil (that should be on Regina), but it's just more credit to Emma that she doesn't want to cause any hurt even to someone who has hurt her worse in the past.

Up to a point, yes. But there's a fine line between taking the high road and enabling, and if Regina keeps getting treated so kindly by the people she's awful to, what incentive does she have to change her ways? She can be outrageously cruel and bitchy and throw a fit every time things don't go exactly her way, and she'll still have people bending over backward to be nice to her. I don't think that Emma needed to throw any abuse back at her, and she didn't have to be mean, but it might actually help Regina for someone to say something to give her something to think about, like, "I know you're hurt because Robin got his wife back, but have you considered that what you're going through now is a lot like what you've put so many other people through in separating them from their loved ones -- including Robin?" Or "I know what it's like to lose someone just when you're starting a promising relationship. Remember what happened to Graham?" (and that would be an unintentional burn if Emma doesn't realize Regina murdered him, just pointing out the loss, but maybe it would give Regina a guilt whammy). Or there's even the way you deal with a toddler throwing a tantrum, "I can't reason with you when you're being this way, so I'm going to walk away and let you get this out of your system. Then when you're ready to talk, I can listen." But begging to be her friend while she's abusing her? That's not good for anyone.

 

Unintentionally or not, they're created a pretty scary ethos in this show in which there's no good reason anyone would want to be a hero and being a villain sounds like the better option. If you're a hero, you're not allowed to kill, even in self defense or defense of others. You're not allowed to get angry at people who've wronged you. You're not allowed to show any negative emotions about what you're going through -- you can't be upset, resentful or angry. You're not allowed to say anything even the least bit mean or snarky. You have to be nice to people who are being mean to you, and you have to forgive everyone who's hurt you, even if they haven't apologized. You have to take their abuse and apologize for anything you may have done to bother them, even if you didn't mean it. You have to do the right thing, but then the right thing will be called bad if it ends up hurting the person who's doing the wrong thing.

 

But if you're a villain, you don't have to apologize or regret anything you've done, and no one can get angry at you. If someone tries to stop your evil and that hurts you, they have to apologize to you. You can say whatever you want, and no one can get angry about it. You can be mean and snarky, and they just have to take it. If one of your evil schemes backfires and you get caught in it, the good guys will help you. The people you're abusing will beg for your friendship. And then you can petition some higher power to give you a happy ending because you deserve it for not killing people.

 

So there's your lesson, boys and girls. Be evil, and then stop, and then you get all the benefits of being a hero but all the fun of being a villain without having to do any of that nasty groveling.

[shapeshifter]

OMG!! friggin thank you! every time she came on screen i was taken out of the scene because i knew i've seen her before and i couldn't remember from where. i haven't watched Defiance since the last 3/4 of its 1st season and i keep forgetting to go back to it.

Defiance was my favorite show when it was airing. Granted, it was summer, but still, I watch a lot of TV. Anyway, I was a little disturbed by Christie being a runaway teen since she's a newly married and pregnant wife on Defiance.

I thought the review was actually pretty funny.  There's no way to really take it seriously, I wondered if the writer was trying to be sarcastic even.

I'm assuming it was supposed to be pure snark, but snark is a fine art, and you can't just assume readers will get sarcasm if you don't let your true opinion shine through.

regularlyleaded, I was fanwanking that Emma was letting Regina illogically blame her because Emma cares about Henry and is willing to do whatever it takes to give him a stable family like she never had. Emma recognizes that Henry still loves Regina--as unbelievable as that may be. Stockholm Syndrome, I guess. When my boss is being Regina to my Emma I act the same way because I'm too young to retire and too old to get hired at another job.

[foreverevolving]

Defiance was my favorite show when it was airing. Granted, it was summer, but still, I watch a lot of TV. Anyway, I was a little disturbed by Christie being a runaway teen since she's a newly married and pregnant wife on Defiance.

 

 

I thought Defiance was still on.. i mean during the summer, was it canceled this past year?

[shapeshifter]

I thought Defiance was still on.. i mean during the summer, was it canceled this past year?

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, it's renewed. Just on hiatus.

BTW, I just looked up Nicole Muñoz (Christie/Lilly) and she's only 20. Still, how old were Emma and Lilly supposed to be in the flashback?

[Dani-Ellie]

I remember the timestamp said 1998 but I don't remember if they gave a month. Emma was 14 or 15, depending on when in the year it was.

[InsertWordHere]

Emma was 14, probably about to turn 15, since I believe Lily said summer had just ended.

[KingOfHearts]

Who was that frozen person at the very beginning that the Snow Queen was messing with?

[InsertWordHere]

Who was that frozen person at the very beginning that the Snow Queen was messing with?

I assumed it was some sort of golem that she used to create frozen Anna.

[KingOfHearts]

After rewatch, I decided the Emma/Regina escapade could have worked if their attitudes were different.

If Regina has been just a bit more closed off and reserved, then it would have been a closer match for the Elsa parallel they were obviously going for. The endless insults didn't mix at all with how she has been handled recently. With Emma, if she was more "Stop feeling sorry for yourself - let's work together to stop this Snow Queen. It's the only way we can do this", I could tolerate her diplomacy with Regina.

Their whole ordeal was just full of bad writing and poor dialog. It wasn't fluid or in-character for either of them.

[Souris]

Shanna Marie, I wish I could hold open A&E's eyes with toothpicks and force them to read your post.

 

And Camera One, you've proven you're a better plotter than A&E. I know that's damning with faint praise, but well done!

Edited October 30, 2014 by Souris

[Faemonic]

While I absolutely loved much the CS scenes, I feel the writers need to be careful about not making hook too much like the knave. I've noticed more of a cockney accent in hook and less vocabulary porn.  

 

I loved the last scene with Emma and Hook. The chemistry was there. He was being supportive and genuinely interested in his Swan. Emma was open and vulnerable, and freeze frame of the snow queen's face was chilling.

 

Thank you! I've been noticing way more of a Cockney accent since the season started, and was wondering if O'Donoghue's been running his lines with Socha behind the scenes, and was wondering if it was just me hearing it.

 

Hook didn't seem to be wearing the Supportive Boyfriend role well to me, I don't know, he just didn't. I consider that strange, because his Neverland compliments got me to completely forget that he left Emma in a jail cell with Team Princess, heck, his Beanstalk Climbing Psychotherapy got me prepared to forget that sudden but inevitable betrayal as soon as the bars melted--so I personally consider Hook phenomenally excellent at stepping into the Supportive Love Interest role. Now I'm like, "Wait what you are not that close yet." Maybe it was because of the events of The Apprentice? But I don't get the impression that episode 05 and 04 were supposed to be in one another's places.

[jaytee1812]

Thank you! I've been noticing way more of a Cockney accent since the season started, and was wondering if O'Donoghue's been running his lines with Socha behind the scenes, and was wondering if it was just me hearing it.

Michael Socha doesn't have a cockney accent. That's his natural accent he's from Derby if I remember correctly.

[Faemonic]

Michael Socha doesn't have a cockney accent. That's his natural accent he's from Derby if I remember correctly.

I stand corrected.

If I'm not imagining the change from the way Hook talks from last season, then, maybe it's just more attempt at a romanticized pirate-talk, then? We've got "ayes" and an "ahoy" recently but thankfully no excess of "arrr" (yet.)

[Curio]

If I'm not imagining the change from the way Hook talks from last season, then, maybe it's just more attempt at a romanticized pirate-talk, then? We've got "ayes" and an "ahoy" recently but thankfully no excess of "arrr" (yet.)

 

I think it might have just stood out more in the jail scene because Hook goes "Paperwork, ahoy!" and then Will almost immediately goes "Oi! Where's me dinner?" They both kind of sound the same.

[MadyGirl1987]

I read the io9 episode review this morning and it was like whiplash when you spend most of your Once related time over here. Are we all watching the same show?

What did I just read? Really? I.... Words fail me.. To quote from Seinfeld, "I am speechless. I am without speech."

[legaleagle53]

I almost want to respond to that horrendous review with "Regina, is that you?"  Seriously, it reads exactly like something she'd write, doesn't it?

[tricknasty]

I'm sorry if this has been answered already, but why did Elsa's gown change from last season's finale?  I preferred that gown and I'm guessing it's a different actress but why the change? Never watched Frozen so which gown was featured in the movie? Thanks in advance...

[HeimrArnadalr]

In this episode she was wearing some sort of purple cloak over the blue gown. She wore two dresses in the movie, one for her coronation and one afterwards, and both are in this image.

[darkestboy]

Great episode. Nice flashbacks with Emma and Lily, the latter I'm sure will show up once again.

The Snow Queen wants a family to love. Like Regina, she seems to be going about it the wrong way.

Nice to see elsa conquer her fears and all that too with her final confrontation with her aunt.

Sidney betraying Regina was a good twist but you can hardly blame him considering what she's done to it.

Will is a great addition to the show but the Snow/Charming stuff isn't that interesting to watch this season.

Love the look of the Snow Queen's place, 8/10

[angelwoody]

But if you're a villain, you don't have to apologize or regret anything you've done, and no one can get angry at you. If someone tries to stop your evil and that hurts you, they have to apologize to you. You can say whatever you want, and no one can get angry about it. You can be mean and snarky, and they just have to take it. If one of your evil schemes backfires and you get caught in it, the good guys will help you. The people you're abusing will beg for your friendship. And then you can petition some higher power to give you a happy ending because you deserve it for not killing people.

 

So there's your lesson, boys and girls. Be evil, and then stop, and then you get all the benefits of being a hero but all the fun of being a villain without having to do any of that nasty groveling.

I'm picturing something to this effect framed and hanging in the writers' room.  It is basically they're mission statment...

[MedievalGirl]

I'm sorry if this has been answered already, but why did Elsa's gown change from last season's finale?  I preferred that gown and I'm guessing it's a different actress but why the change? Never watched Frozen so which gown was featured in the movie? Thanks in advance...

I liked it too and it fit in better with the over aesthetic of other Fairy Tale Land dresses. OTOH it looked a bit like Abigale's blue dress and the cape coming off of the neckline would have been problematic. The material they ended up using for Elsa's blue dress is pretty impressive - italian silk with crystals sew on to it and the stuff for the cape was specially dyed. They probably couldn't pull that together for the season ending reveal. (For all the effort on the current dress I still think it looks like an ice skating competition costume. Yeah, I know, but still not right.)

[tricknasty]

Thank you MedievalGirl

[Rumsy4]

I did my usual rewatch of the episode. Even though I skipped all the Emma/Regina scenes, it was still so painful to watch. I could not enjoy the flashback because I knew how they were framing it. Even though I loved the CS scene in the end, it was still painful to see Emma hurting. Way to ruin the first bby Emma flashback episode! As for the Frozen stuff, only the Sidney/SQ scene at the end was good. Everything else was filler.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

I've read quite a few mainstream reviews of this episode and while they vary on their overall enjoyment of the episode, every single one of them thought Regina's vitriol was the worst part of the episode. Even the unabashed Regina supporters were unhappy and uncomfortable with the way that whole plot was done. It seems that other than the hardcore Evil Regals for whom Regina can do no wrong, her actions were not taken well even by her usual supporters. 

 

On a more random note, this episode did inspire a long debate between me and my mother as to whether there was a grocery store in Hopkins in 1998 for Emma to have shoplifted from (apparently, we have nothing else of interest to talk about). Our final conclusion was that there was not. It was nice to debate something about this show that did not at all inspire anger or upset in me. It's kind of funny that it came out of this episode.

[Camera One]

My problem was not with Regina's vitriol.  I could even buy it as her pushing people away, as Lana P suggested.  The worst thing about the episode was how the writers made Emma conclude that she can't give up on Regina since she wants her as a friend.  I could even have accepted Emma not fighting back if they gave an actual believable reason for it, such as keeping peace for the sake of Henry or working together in the face of another major threat.  

 

So was this episode all worth it?  Did the events change Regina's outlook and what she does, because now Emma has tried to make it up to her and has expressed that "You've Got a Friend in Me"?

[KAOS Agent]

 

So was this episode all worth it?  Did the events change Regina's outlook and what she does, because now Emma has tried to make it up to her and has expressed that "You've Got a Friend in Me"?

 

I think that's where the writers failed with the whole thing. Beyond Emma enduring endless abuse without a word and then begging for Regina's friendship, I don't think anything actually changed with regards to Regina's general outlook on things. She's still all in on Operation Mongoose and getting her deserved happy ending. Regina didn't actually experience any growth and even her fans were put off by her regression. You can't have her being all white magic hero and on a path to self-improvement and then throw this kind of crap into the mix. It was understandable and fit her characterization, but fans who bought into her redemptive arc last season were confused when this happened because it made a mockery of what happened in 3B. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I could even have accepted Emma not fighting back if they gave an actual believable reason for it, such as keeping peace for the sake of Henry or working together in the face of another major threat.

I would have bought that Emma just felt guilt about bringing unhappiness to someone, that she didn't want to be in conflict with another person. There was no basis setup at all for her conclusion at the end of the episode. I don't understand how she found more "similarities" between her and Regina than her and Elsa. Is Elsa just chopped liver?

 

But, as I was thinking later, the intentions of the writers was probably to draw that Emma's friendship with Regina was her attempt to fix her "mistake" with Lily. She has probably felt guilty about it for years, so this was her way of keeping it from happening again. Yeah, I'm eyerolling too, but that's my guess as to what the writers were trying to do.

 

As a side note, this episode had a new writer, which explains Regina's over-the-top evil-queenish dialog.

Edited November 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Of course, let's give the new writer the episode with Emma's very first ever childhood centric.  

 

The worst Regina line I can remember from this episode is, "When have you EVER had my back?"  Was Regina just lashing out and being her proud self?  Or does she truly not consider the multitudes of examples of the Charmings trying to save her as not having her back.  It's really difficult to tell.  That's how badly the character development is on this show.  Even though Regina has had the most significant screentime, I really have no idea if she really has zero self awareness, or if it's half a front, and if it's the former, if the writers actually intend for it to be that way.  Or perhaps the new writer didn't watch any of the first three seasons and only read the memo...

 

Dear New Writer,

 

You've been assigned Episode #5

 

Take home message in this one: Regina feels alone and unloved and lashes out.

 

Requirements: By end of episode, Emma must tell Regina that all she wants is for Regina to be her friend, and she's the only person who understands what it feels like to be misunderstood.

 

A&E

Edited November 2, 2014 by Camera One

[Emma]

I didn't think it could get worse then I read that about a new writer. SMH.

[Dani-Ellie]

The worst Regina line I can remember from this episode is, "When have you EVER had my back?"

 

Right?! Let's see, maybe when Emma pulled Regina from the fire Gold set in 1x08 or when she saved her from first the angry mob and then the wraith in 2x01 or fought for her innocence until she had seeming evidence to the contrary in 2x10 or joined magic with her to stop the failsafe in 2x22 or ...

 

You get the point. Like, seriously, Regina? These people have been far nicer to you than they really ought to, considering what you've done to them. A little appreciation of that fact would not be unwelcome.

[Amerilla]

The lead writer - the one who isn't new - is just awful IMO. (Her first solo outing was that abomination known as Quiet Minds.) Putting her with a newbie can't have helped much.

She's also the lead on tonight's ep, meaning I expect very little.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Amerilla

[FurryFury]

Do you mean Kalinda Vazquez? She also wrote Lost Girl, one of the best episodes in season 3, but that was co-written with Andrew Chambliss (an experienced writer with lots of credit on other shows), so it could have been his influence (they also did "Dark Hollow" together, which I wasn't a big fan of, but it wasn't that awful, IIRC). Everything else by her, however... Wow. "Tiny", "Selfless, Brave and True", "Kansas"... Yeah, she really seems to be one of the weakest links in the writer room.

Edited November 2, 2014 by FurryFury