S07.E07: Greensleeves

[Artsda]

The crying Chib's scene is amazing, especially now knowing it wasn't scripted. The guys reaction to the iPad video was natural, because they all like method acting. 

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Sutter better not have Abel killing Gemma. The kid needs counseling, love and a new family, not a murder on his records.

I would laugh my ass off if Sutter turns Abel into Dexter....but without a code. Last scene is him standing over some dead hooker (or even better Wendy his biomom) with a knife in his hand Jax staring on in horror at what he reeped.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[blueglass]

Seriously, "Winsome" is a Jamaican woman's name...

 

Maybe her parents were expecting a black baby, too?

Edited October 22, 2014 by blueglass

[BetyBee]

If Winsome is to become the new love interest, then why did Sutter have her say something as stupid as anti-semantic?  Or does he think that is correct usage?  I would think that she would be some brilliant accidental whore if she was meant to be good enough for clever (not) Jax. 

 

Did I mishear?  I thought Nero asked Alvarez for twice as much money as his half of Diosa is worth.  Does Nero have a secret plan? 

I was certain that Nero would be the one who got killed when Gemma sent the message for him to come to the cabin.  I also thought Thomas, then Rat might die at her hands.  She is certifiable!! 

 

They certainly don't seem to worry about guns around small children.  I have a feeling the bad seed will get hold of a gun and blow his "good grandma" away.  I just hope little Thomas doesn't get caught in the crossfire.  And poor Abel - what a life he's had!

Edited October 22, 2014 by BetyBee

[Snookums]

Greensleeves, you were a horrible character and actor. Sayonara, and good light moment with the messy "suicide".

 

 

The second I heard his name was Greensleeves I was rooting for his death. How did such a horrible skinny nothing person become a pimp? Why haven't the other pimps turned him into a human pinata by this time, laughing all the while?

 

I did enjoy The Worst Suicide Ever, both for the dialogue and the point that chucking a grown human out a window isn't easy. 

[Mrs peel]

The notion that Abel has any idea of what's going on, I find absurd.

He may not understand that Grandma actually killed Tara, but kids are mimics, and at some point repeat everything you say.  So he could repeat what Gemma said at some point, maybe when he overhears someone talking about Tara dying or someone else being dead.

Okay I will give the show credit for one good thing.  The bit with Rat and Happy admitting they were afraid of Gemma was funny . . . and then it perfectly explained why they were being tougher than usual with her, which is what she picked up on and misinterpreted.  I was genuinely afraid for where that misunderstanding was headed.

Me too, though since we’re not near the end I guess we shouldn’t think Gemma will kill anyone yet.  Done in the last episode?  I could have seen Gemma killing someone.

Why didn't Marx just kidnap Gemma? Wishful thinking on my part.

Unlike everyone else, he’s not stupid.  Who would want Gemma around?

I hate to attempt to watch the Tara murder again, but I'm really fuzzy on how it played out. I'd been convinced that Gemma purposely stabbed Tara. Was it in any way vague enough that Gemma could somehow believe that she did so accidentally? Or is it just rationalization/delusion?

Totally rationalization,in my opinion.  Gemma convinced herself it was an “accident” because she had “wrong” information about Tara.  Because the obvious answer to a woman wanting to get away from crazy people who kill everyone is to go and kill her. 

I was soooooo confused at the beginning when they just let Juice go and then with everything that happend after with him shooting the cops, etc.  I had to read in an online review that the point was so that he would get arrested and put in the same prison as Lin.  Seriously, did the show ever say this?

They did mention it when they were at the table.  Chibbs said something like Juice would do it because all he cares about is his cut/the club. Why the club would allow Juice to stay in considering everything that’s happened makes no sense, but whatever.. And showing again how stupid Juice is (not that he’s alone).  But I also thought at the beginning that the idea was he would kill himself, and then that it would be a suicide by cop thing.  Then I thought the club was trying to get the cops away for some other purpose (the van drove up after they left), so I was way off.

 

Near the end Jax said something about a rat talking to Marx (I think)?  Did I miss something shown?  Because I’m blanking on that.

[daughtersofanarchy]

The past couple of episodes we've had too many scenes impressing on us that all friends and family members were in lockdown to keep them all safey safe from the Chinese.  Then when the Chinese went to jail, and the stragglers of the gang were mopped up, all friends and family were finally let out of the Son's lockdown.

 

Now we have Jax giving a copy of the document signed by the preacher's wife and son to the Niner guy and telling him to take it straight to August Marks.  Thus introducing the possibility of an explosive, lethal reaction from Marks.

 

Now I ask you, did Jax or any of the Sons say, gee whiz, this could be dicey, do you think maybe we should put friends and family back in lockdown again, BEFORE we send this document off to Marks?  Would that make a little sense?  Ahh, heck no, let's go wander about in pairs, or even alone, and make unbelievably perfect targets of ourselves.  Oh, and don't tell Nero anything about this because I'm sure his kid will be fine.

 

And all this, after knowing that Pope, and his right-hand man, August Marks, had no problem throwing Tig's daughter in a pit, dousing her with gasoline, and burning her alive.  In front of her father.

[Snookums]

Near the end Jax said something about a rat talking to Marx (I think)?  Did I miss something shown?  Because I’m blanking on that.

 

 

That made no sense to me either. Dude, half of Cali knows about your endless idiot plans. Marx wouldn't have to be a deductive genius to find out what he wants to know.

[mamcu]

It occurred to me last night, that the custom table in the clubhouse may be the only real asset SAMCRO has...I find myself admiring it whenever they display it

That's a tough table.  It's been through a police raid and two explosions.

The second I heard his name was Greensleeves I was rooting for his death. How did such a horrible skinny nothing person become a pimp? Why haven't the other pimps turned him into a human pinata by this time, laughing all the while?

 

I did enjoy The Worst Suicide Ever, both for the dialogue and the point that chucking a grown human out a window isn't easy. 

It's also a really bad suicide when you have a gunshot wound to your shoulder.

[panthergirl13]

KS singing "Greensleeves" at the end was so ridiculous and on-the-nose (including the lyrics about "my own blue eye") that it completely wrecked any moderately sad feelings I may have had about Bobby (on of the few characters left that I like AT ALL).

 

And speaking of noses, Greensleeves was a nickname my father would give to my cousins when they'd use an arm to wipe a runny nose.

I'm sure that's not the deep or profound reference Sutter was hoping to call to mind, but there you have it.

[Puddy]

I just read an article that had a few (no spoiler) tidbits.  Apparently, Abel is played by two little boys.  Sutter said all he does is make the face he wants the kid(s) to copy and after the scene, he gives him a dollar!  Kid needs to ask for a fiver.

 

Nero's grandpa cardigans have their own Twitter.  "Mama" says that's hilarious.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Notice the Irish were not in any of this?  

 

If I am the Niners, I just figured out I need to be super faithful to Marks.  They are in a great position to wipe out SAMCRO, or die trying.  They know that Marks will kill them anyway if they do not somehow prove their fealty to him.

 

I did like that once again we see that any of them could be taken out individually with ease.  It just takes being willing to live with the pushback.  Although, it was absurd that Bobby was that oblivious, as previously pointed out.

 

My viewing is much improved as I figured out to use closed-captioning.  No joke.  I totally would have missed "anti-semantic," which was hilarious - not to mention anything Chibs ever says.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Lonesome Rhodes

[panthergirl13]

If they don't have an episode dedicated to mocking Italians before the end of the series, I'm really gonna feel left out. (I've got your porno title right here: "That's a Nice Pizza Ass")

[Insomnia]

I really loved everyone running around trying to save Gemma as she was freaking out, and how they assumed Happy said something. Because if Gemma wasn't paranoid and it was just another day, I could easily see Happy saying something, to start that all off.

 

But, it also makes you wonder: were the after the station wagon, in that case should it have been Tig to loose an eye, not Bobby, or were they trying to get anyone Sons adjacent? Bobby was the only one alone, but Nero drove out there by himself as well. Also how / why did they find a Son so far out of their zone, since the Cabin is a couple of hours away, isn't it? I know Nero arrived after dark and California is huge but geographically is where Nero was that much further than where Bobby was? Why didn't Nero see anything? (I really have no idea on distances, since people seem to get wherever they are going depending on when they need to get there, not actual travel time.)

 

My prediction is that with all of Gemma's hoarding up on guns and drunken paranoia, Gemma is going to kill Thomas, accidentally, probably while drunk (She was high when she killed Tara and she was pretty drunk when they came to pick her up), and then Abel is going to protect his little brother and kill Gemma.

 

But I'm a slightly sick and evil fuck. But so is Sutter, and that's where I see things going right now.

[NotChu]

She's a looney! What she intended in her mind now may be what she thought she meant at the time, because she convinced herself of it. But really I don't know how you stab someone in the head with a meat fork four times after trying to drown them and call it an accident. Plus, you know, she talks to people who aren't there. I think she was kind of confessing to her Thomas, not the one in her arms.

 

She's calling it an accident because she believed Tara was going to turn Jax in, hence her decision to kill Tara.  Gemma purposefully killed Tara for the wrong reason.  Hence the "accident".  Oops!

 

[Gudzilla]

Creepiest part: The way Abel stomped past Happy with his dead eyed look.

 

Funniest part:  Tig in the background rubbing Unser on the head and belly and Unser's irritation at it.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Gudzilla

[NotChu]

Ok, help me out.  I tend to get totally lost in all of the different gangs / alliances and what deals are being worked out or broken so I don't understand why those guys went after Bobby. Also, if Chibs is ever the person to explain what is going on then it's over for me. I love Chibs, he is my favorite, but I cannot understand a thing he says.  Anyway, wasn't the club making peace with Marks? What happend to trigger him to relallitate by hurting Bobby? 

 

I was soooooo confused at the beginning when they just let Juice go and then with everything that happend after with him shooting the cops, etc.  I had to read in an online review that the point was so that he would get arrested and put in the same prison as Lin.  Seriously, did the show ever say this?  I guess I zoned out because I completely missed it.  I was really looking forward to a big Jax / Juice showdow and what happened was totally lame.  Maybe it will happen eventually.

 

Shocked that it was Abel who overheard Gemma's confession.  I can't figure out if that kid is just a terrible actor or if they are telling him to act like an extra from Children of the Corn but, either way, he is coming across as very creepy.  I kind of wonder if he really understood what Gemma was saying but, either way, I  am interested to see where they are going with it.

 

Totally thought Gemma was going to haul off and start shooting everyone at the cabin.  Her paranoia is going to give her away if Abel or Juice don't.

 

Poor Bobby and poor crying Chibs:(   I knew the box was not a good thing and I am so glad it wasn't his heart or something.

 

Am I the only one who doesn't really care for Katy Segal's voice? You know it's a "very special episode" whenever she is the one singing over the closing montage. 

No you are not!  lol  I just came from another forum where someone praised last night's soundtrack and Katy.  She used to sing backup for Bette Midler, so, to me, she sounds like someone trying to sound like Bette only failing miserable.  lol 

[Glaze Crazy]

So, Abel. Nature or Nurture? He's born to a drug addled mother, being raised by a gang of violent psycho killers who are convinced the kids don't have any idea what's really going on around them, as long as Grannie and Daddy love them. They get left in the care of random club members, hookers, porn actresses or girlfriends, or Wendy, who, despite her condition at Abel's birth, is the best option right now. (who saw that coming?)  Forget that Mommy's dead by violence, which should have put that little boy into counseling, at the least. Yeah, I see Abel being the one to pull the trigger on Gemma with one of her carefully secured hand guns, or at least be the one to spill it to Jax or Wendy. It should be him, his birth was a driving force at the start of what has become this mess, he should be the final note at the end.

 

I was hoping Nero had finally seen the writing on the wall and was cutting his ties to all of these loonies and getting the heck out. He was on the right track until he tried to get Gemma to go with him. I was glad she put him off though. I hope she has at least enough heart left to know he needs to get away from her, black widow that she is.

 

LOL at the guys being afraid of Gemma and that Jax was mystified by that. "What? Are you afraid of my mother?" If they only knew the real truth...

 

I thought Gemma might start shooting up the cabin before she found out what was really going on, just to add even more miscommunication chaos to her already full juggling act. She's got so many balls in the air right now she's losing control and stuff is starting to fall.

 

Poor Bobby Elvis. He's the last of the old guard, isn't he? I had noticed how old he was looking at the table tonight, I wonder if that was an intentional visual to set up the horror later. I was also wondering why he didn't react when that bunch of vehicles came up fast behind him and then blew past, while he's just singing and Elvis song.

[Ohwell]

So Jax thought he was a smart general ordering people around, a puppeteer pulling all the strings--and all it took was an eye in a plastic dish to make him almost pee in his pants.  Maybe he actually did pee in his pants.  I love the addition of Marks's "security" guy.  Now Jax really knows who he's fucking with and it's much more that he expected.

 

I thought Nero was a goner when he went to the cabin.  I still don't think he'll make it out alive and if he is killed I'm pretty certain he'll be buried in that damn sweater.   

 

I thought Katey Sagal's voice was weak and I don't think she did a good job on that song.  

[NotChu]

The past couple of episodes we've had too many scenes impressing on us that all friends and family members were in lockdown to keep them all safey safe from the Chinese.  Then when the Chinese went to jail, and the stragglers of the gang were mopped up, all friends and family were finally let out of the Son's lockdown.

 

Now we have Jax giving a copy of the document signed by the preacher's wife and son to the Niner guy and telling him to take it straight to August Marks.  Thus introducing the possibility of an explosive, lethal reaction from Marks.

 

Now I ask you, did Jax or any of the Sons say, gee whiz, this could be dicey, do you think maybe we should put friends and family back in lockdown again, BEFORE we send this document off to Marks?  Would that make a little sense?  Ahh, heck no, let's go wander about in pairs, or even alone, and make unbelievably perfect targets of ourselves.  Oh, and don't tell Nero anything about this because I'm sure his kid will be fine.

 

And all this, after knowing that Pope, and his right-hand man, August Marks, had no problem throwing Tig's daughter in a pit, dousing her with gasoline, and burning her alive.  In front of her father.

 

Remember, though, that Jax defeated Pope and probably feels he can defeat Marks, too.  Plus, being in revenge-mode, Jax isn't really thinking as clearly as normal.  Tara's only been dead a few weeks on the show, so the hurt is still very raw for Jax.  His emotions are his downfall.  Marks doesn't strike me as the emotional type.  Plus, he outlived Pope, who was supposed to be the baddest mo-fo Oakland ever produced.  Jax made a big mistake underestimating Marks and not heeding his warning about serving up that plate of revenge until it was cold.  

[leisawoo]

I agree with everything here! Your comments have been the kind I love and agree with. I was a little too exhausted after this episode to even get on here after it. Poor Bobby. I can't remember and haven't re watched yet. Did she say "I killed your mommy" or "it's my fault mommy' dead"? Either way, I think Abel will take her out or-shudder-try to hurt her and end up hurting himself . Possibly in front of Jax, Gemma and whoever else. That might be the most fitting ending for Jax's and Gemma's delusional version of honor 'n all that alternate universe of reality/morality in which they operate. The one they "live for and love so much"undone by mimicking their actions and how they show him they deal with things.

I also know they are limited on time but damn! There wasn't a better way to segue or show wtf was going on with Juice. I mean, geez, I am not accustomed to keeping up with plot this season. It's hard with all the violence going on and the WTF moments going on, lol. Last thought, maybe Nero HAS figured out Gruesome Gran's involvement in Tara's death. He may figure that Jax will deal with her brutally and is trying to get her away?

[Ohwell]

Last thought, maybe Nero HAS figured out Gruesome Gran's involvement in Tara's death. He may figure that Jax will deal with her brutally and is trying to get her away?

Yeah, I think Nero suspects that Gemma killed Tara or had something to do with her death.  I just can't believe that he loves her so much that he would want her to stay with him and his son, thinking that she forked someone in the head.  

[leisawoo]

Oh, I am with you on that one! I guess there is something in the air in Charming that causes delusions of grandeur, power, intelligence and well, everything. Maybe he thinks if he gets her away from the club, she will be different. Also, I did not type that with a straight face. Giggled thru it.

[TigerLynx]

I have become completely jaded.  When I saw that box, I thought, "Damn, Bobby is probably still alive.  The box isn't big enough for his head."

 

Bobby, Juice, Gemma, or Nero should have died this episode.

 

At this point, I could see everyone dying except Wendy.  Wendy takes the boys and leaves Charming.  Abel kills Wendy, and then it's just him and Thomas.

 

Alvarez and the Mayans, Niners, and white supremacist need to run away from SAMCRO as fast as they can.

[look2thecookie]

Here is a very twisted thought: What if Gemma discovers that Abel knows her secret and has to kill Abel before he blurts it out to Jax? Or is this going completely over the edge? This kind of situation would be the ultimate test of Gemma's maniacal sense of self-preservation. 

[WatchrTina]

Bobby was the last surviving Redwood Original wasn't he?

[Insomnia]

She's got so many balls in the air

 

I mis-read this as "She's going balls to the air right now." and I thought, Well, that's a new phrase.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

I thought Katey Sagal's voice was weak and I don't think she did a good job on that song.

Someone needs to clue Sutter in to what Trent Reznor finally realized: even if your wife (Mariqueen Maandig, in Reznor's case) is a technically good singer and can be really effective with the right song and accompaniment, this does not mean that every song she sings will be brilliant, or even worth listening to.

Meanwhile, I loved Gemma telling Chucky "You're not a mascot," then immediately patting him on the head...LIKE A MASCOT.

It was fun seeing Gemma gradually lose her shit going up to the cabin, but come on: either Ratboy or Happy would've sensed her nervousness and said "Look, it's nothing bad. Jax just needs your help with something, and we're not allowed to say what," instead of doing their best "Driving Tessio away for his cement overcoat apppointment" impression.

[La Tortuga]



 

 

 Semantic, Semetic, Potato po-tah-to-- between the Cocks and Bagels porn shoot, and Greensleeves being the "jew pimp- -I was sensing a theme of some sort? Oh Kurt Sutter, how amusing.

 

 

Sutter's mixing Shakespeare references again. Greensleeves is a reference to Henry VIII (who, in addition to being the subject of a Shakespearean play, is credited with writing the song "Greensleeves"), and the "Jew pimp" is, I think, a reference to Shylock the Jew from "The Merchant of Venice." Shylock's daughter Jessica betrays her father by forming a romantic attachment to the friend of Shylock's business rival.

[Artsda]

Bobby was the last surviving Redwood Original wasn't he?

 

They're all "Redwood Originals" because Redwood is the original charter, Juice, Happy, Rat, they all have the Redwood Original patches.

 

Clay and Piney had another patch for being "First 9". The founding members of SAMCRO, which Bobby wasn't. He wasn't one of the First 9. It was JT, Clay, Piney,  the guy from Belfast (season 3)  that Clay killed and some others that had died already.  

Edited October 23, 2014 by Artsda

[Kel Varnsen]

It occurred to me last night, that the custom table in the clubhouse may be the only real asset SAMCRO has...I find myself admiring it whenever they display it

 

Which really makes me wonder, how the hell did Nero think Jax would be able to buy him out? I mean I don't remember the last time we saw SAMCRO actually making money.

 

 

Second dumbest thing he said was when he told the streetwalker that at the Diosa they will treat her real good working for them. Yeah  she should ask all the other girls that used to work there except for the fact that they were brutally murdered  thanks to Jax’s stupidity.

 

Nero should have had a line at some point to Winsome saying something like "You don't follow the news do you? No? Good" and then driving off.

 

 

I'm in.  I think we'd be on the floor even faster if we included the following:

 Mama

 Baby

Jesus Christ

Mano

Ese

"whole"

Black, Yellow, ( insert color here)

 

If you throw in "brother", the use of the word "family" to describe people who aren't actually related, and anytime two men hug and you will have alcohol poisoning before the first commercial.

And Jax - you are so dumb. So. Freakin'. Dumb. Your brothers are literally losing eyes because of your blind rage.

I'm guessing Bobby will become leverage? Surely they would have just killed him otherwise.

At this point I really don't understand why Jax wants to go to war with Marks.  Why not just tell Marks you believe that Lin killed your wife and try and get him on your side? Although I suppose it is too late for that now.

[DrSpaceman]

I don't really understand the show much anymore.  Becomes more and more unbelievable first of all that this many people die week after week, mass killings, and there is not more of a response politically or from law enforcement. 

 

Second, Marks has far more men and thousans of times more money than SAMCRO and I am sure he knows they are behind ths stuff.  If he put just a little effort into it, he could easily track them down and kill them all.  Its not like its a mystery where they spend most of their time or have some secret batcave hide out.  Plus Jax plan to blackmail Marks is just weak. 

 

These 90 minute episodes drag on.  Really at this point i am just hanging on for the very end to see if everyone ends up dead like I think they will. 

[Ottis]

nWhen Gemma was all paranoid weepy with her at her house while she was getting ready to go I kept waiting for Wendy to say "Oh, hey! Just remembered! You're a totally evil bitch who tried to get me to kill myself! Man, I can't believe that slipped my mind for so long. Anyway, good luck being slaughtered like a pig, Imma hook up with Nero and go hang out on that ranch with your grandkids and we'll all have big ol' double scoop Irony Ice Cream Cones in your honor, you horrible woman."

 

I read this as Wendy being smart. Gemma wanted Wendy to run, so that Gemma could then blame Wendy for hiding Juice (and get Gemma out of the equation entirely). Gemma knows Jax would kill Wendy before listening to anything Wendy said. And Wendy realized this, and said nope, I'm not running. Because if I do, you'll pin all this on me (Wendy realized). I kind of liked that development.

 

My prediction is that with all of Gemma's hoarding up on guns and drunken paranoia, Gemma is going to kill Thomas, accidentally,

 

 

I thought Gemma was going to accidently kill the druggie mom after stumbling on them in the cabin, to make the Marks move worse. But then it became worse, anyway.

 

So how did Marks know enough about Jax's plan to grab Bobby? Did I miss a clue?

 

Having Katy S sing a song completely takes me out of the show. Her singing voice sounds just like Gemma. Good or bad, it is very distracting. That should stop, IMO.

 

I wonder if Jax will pick up little clues ... like the issue over Gemma being freaked out about going to the cabin ... and never put it together until Abel happens to say, "Grandma killed mommy, she said so." Then it hits Jax with the force of a thousand bricks and he staggers with the realization.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Ottis

[La Tortuga]

I think what bothers me about SAMCRO trying to take down Marks is that Jax is the one who put Marks in power in the first place when he handed over the IRA gun trade to him. Now that the Mayans want in on that IRA action, suddenly Jax thinks he can take that away from Marks and give it to Marcus and have the whole thing go smoothly. It doesn't seem to occur to Jax that a) he is no longer allowed to have any input on the business relationship between Marks and the Irish, because it is their relationship now, not his; b) he's been approaching the problem as though the Irish don't actually need to be consulted, even though Marcus clearly expects him to "convince" the Irish to go through the Mayans and not, say, some entirely different gang based in a different part of California, and c) Marks isn't trading clocks and TVs, he's running GUNS, lots of them, which means he's got lots of firepower with which to protect his interests. Did he really expect Marks to just roll over and take it because Jax killed a handful of Niners and sent over some paperwork?

[Kel Varnsen]

Now that the Mayans want in on that IRA action, suddenly Jax thinks he can take that away from Marks and give it to Marcus and have the whole thing go smoothly. 

Is that why Jax wants/thinks he needs to take out Marks? That makes no sense. I get that he wanted Alvarez to not be against him when he went up against Lin, but at the same time, why not just wait and get Marks on your side against Lin. 

 

Also what happened to the Cartel? Weren't they also supplying Alvarez with guns along with drugs (in exchange for the Mayans muling drugs through northern California). It seems weird that for awhile they were this huge big bad guy that no one messed with. Now they get even less of a mention than the Irish.

[Duke2801]

Keith from Six Feet Under, welcome!

 

 

Right?!  I was like....HEY it's the "Big Black Sex Cop!"  Or whatever his "sexy" nickname was during the 6 Feet Under Days.  He was looking as handsome as ever.  Too bad we probably won't get to see too much more of him. 

 

Oh geeeze, please let Nero, Wendy, and the boys (assuming Abel isn't a serial killer in the making) peace out of Charming and head for Nero's uncle's farm before the entire damn town blows up. 

[look2thecookie]

Marks also threatened Jax and SAMCRO in an episode earlier this season when the two were in Marks's car talking about the need for trust in their relationship (after he probably saw through Jax's lie about SAMCRO not being behind the recent hit on the Chinese). Marks said something like, "Don't cross me Jackson...I will have no remorse in killing you or any of the Sons." Jax went full-on veiled angry face as Marks was saying this to him in the car. I think this provided him with the motivation to take out Marks.

[PiggyRod]

They're all "Redwood Originals" because Redwood is the original charter, Juice, Happy, Rat, they all have the Redwood Original patches.

 

Clay and Piney had another patch for being "First 9". The founding members of SAMCRO, which Bobby wasn't. He wasn't one of the First 9. It was JT, Clay, Piney,  the guy from Belfast (season 3)  that Clay killed and some others that had died already.  

 

Don't forget Otto.

 

Someone else asked if Jury was one of the "First 9" and he is not. He was the President of the Devil's Tribe Club and after the patch over became the President of the SOA Indian Hills Nevada Chapter. He was also an old friend of JT's as they served in Vietnam together.

[henripootel]

The notion that Abel has any idea of what's going on, I find absurd.

 

He may not understand that Grandma actually killed Tara, but kids are mimics, and at some point repeat everything you say.  So he could repeat what Gemma said at some point, maybe when he overhears someone talking about Tara dying or someone else being dead.

 

Maybe, but even a grownup overhearing wouldn't necessarily (if I recall what Gemma said) conclude that Gemma was confessing to murder.  If Abel 'gets it right' and 'repeats' "Grandma killed mama!", I'm gonna be unhappy with Sutter.  More unhappy.

 

I get that Sutter is closing the circle and making Abel become Jax, but unless the kid has been watching Sons of Anarchy, he's seen virtually nothing of the life his father leads.  Even if he glimpsed some shit, he probably doesn't understand it.  By all appearances, Jax and Gemma have given them some semblance of a normal life, which is kinda the juxtaposition that Sutter was going for in the first place.

 

I really don't think Sutter has earned the 'Jax becoming a serial killer poisoned his children' thing he obviously wants.  If Abel ends up shooting Gemma (which is a guess, not a spoiler), it won't be because his father's crimes left him dead inside, it'll because some idiot left a gun around where a kid could find it.  That won't be the culmination of 5 seasons of dramatic development and hubris, it'll be a simple 'don't leave firearms where kids can find them'.  There's nothing profound or dramatic about that cuz nobody is on the other side of that issue, even Jax.

Edited October 23, 2014 by henripootel

[Kel Varnsen]

I get that Sutter is closing the circle and making Abel become Jax, but unless the kid has been watching Sons of Anarchy, he's seen virtually nothing of the life his father leads.  Even if he glimpsed some shit, he probably doesn't understand it.  By all appearances, Jax and Gemma have given them some semblance of a normal life, which is kinda the juxtaposition that Sutter was going for in the first place.

 

I am not sure I agree with that. I mean sure Jax hasn't been bringing him on shoot-outs but I am not sure they have given him a normal life. The kid has been exposed to some crazy shit in his short life. I the kid is what 4? In his lifetime that he can probably remember his "mom" has been killed, his grandfather has been killed, "Uncle" Opie has been killed, "Uncle" Piney has been killed. Plus his dad served 8 months in prison (that he may or may not remember) and went back to jail shortly after his mom was killed. His mom said she was having a baby then she wasn't and everyone was sad. He has survived who knows how many lockdowns where scary looking guys have big guns, and the club house he spent a ton of time in blew up and almost killed him. Even if he only remembers a few of those things that would probably be enough to mess up a kid or at least scare the hell out of him.

[henripootel]

In his lifetime that he can probably remember his "mom" has been killed, his grandfather has been killed, "Uncle" Opie has been killed, "Uncle" Piney has been killed. Plus his dad served 8 months in prison (that he may or may not remember) and went back to jail shortly after his mom was killed.

From his perspective, his mom is no longer around (which, I'll grant, is one he can probably understand) but the others?  Folks come and go for a 4 year old, not even sure what 'dead' means.  Dad wasn't around for a while but grandma was.  This is not an uncommon set of experiences for a 4 or 5 year old, doesn't turn them all into dead-eyed will-be thugs.  I mean we know how scary things are and how fucked up his surroundings are, but as far as he knows he's got a tribe of adult-size folks who all dote on him.  That's not all bad.

Edited October 23, 2014 by henripootel

[Kel Varnsen]

From his perspective, his mom is no longer around (which, I'll grant, is one he can probably understand) but the others?  Folks come and go for a 4 year old, not even sure what 'dead' means.  Dad wasn't around for a while but grandma was.  This is not an uncommon set of experiences for a 4 or 5 year old, doesn't turn them all into dead-eyed will-be thugs.

He obviously knows that people are getting hurt and disappearing, that would explain the thing with the hammer.  Plus I think dad basically disappearing for a time right after mommy died and then you probably can't even go back into your own house because it is a bloody crime scene would be an uncommon experience for a lot of kids. Add to the fact the other people disappearing, and him probably not getting any explanation (I mean what would they tell him about what happened with Clay?) and the clubhouse that is his home away from home blowing up and that would be a lot for a little kid to process. 

[henripootel]

He obviously knows that people are getting hurt and disappearing, that would explain the thing with the hammer.

See, that's kinda my point - it doesn't.  What explains the hammer is that Sutter wants us to think that Abel is being corrupted by his father's evil ways, just as Jax was by John's.  But what evidence have we seen of this?  You really think they keep Abel updated on this week's murder(s), or tell him the details of how Uncle Opie was beaten to death?  I'm guessing it'd be an issue if one of the guys used bad language near him.  Heck, even those outside the club think highly enough of the Sons that they conveniently forget their wrongdoings so-as not to inconvenience them legally.  As far as we've seen, Abel's life thus far has been far less 'desensitized by the violence that surrounds him' and more of a little princeling.  He hasn't been bullied at school or set upon by tough kids at the playground and likely would never be, given his family's unsavory (but inexplicably beloved) reputation. 

 

Just cuz Sutter wants us to think he's earned this result doesn't mean that he has.  IMO.

Edited October 23, 2014 by henripootel

[Kel Varnsen]

See, that's kinda my point - it doesn't.  What explains the hammer is that Sutter wants us to think that Abel is being corrupted by his father's evil ways, just as Jax was by John's.  But what evidence have we seen of this?  You really think they keep Abel updated on this week's murder(s), or tell him the details of how Uncle Opie was beaten to death?  I'm guessing it'd be an issue if one of the guys used bad language near him.  Heck, even those outside the club think highly enough of the Sons that they conveniently forget their wrongdoings so-as not to inconvenience them legally.  As far as we've seen, Abel's life thus far has been far less 'desensitized to the violence that surrounds him' and more of a little princeling.  He hasn't been bullied at school or set upon by tough kids at the playground and likely would never be, given his family's unsavory (but inexplicably beloved) reputation. 

 

Just cuz Sutter wants us to think he's earned this result doesn't mean that he has.  IMO.

Your right he hasn't exposed to the violence, but people he cares about, and care about him keep disappearing. And you know that no one is giving him a straight answer. I have an almost 4 year old, my family lives on the other side of the country so she gets to actually see her grandfather and her aunt/uncle maybe once a year. When they visit and then they leave, she is sad. Now look at it from Able's perspective, those same people left him, and are never coming back, and he doesn't understand why (my daughter understands that some people in our family live far away and you have to take an airplane to visit them). Add to that that his mom was one of those people it would effect him even more.  Plus as I said lock downs and exploding club houses and people trying to kidnap mommy and her losing her baby have to be scary as hell for a little kid. Not saying that automatically makes you a psycho, but it has to do something to a kid. And all that stuff would be on top of the normal stuff that kids get scared of (nightmares, monsters, lightning, spiders).

Edited October 23, 2014 by Kel Varnsen

[monakane]

 

Plus as I said lock downs and exploding club houses and people trying to kidnap mommy and her losing her baby have to be scary as hell for a little kid.

 

Any one of the things that have happened in his life would cause trauma.  He was also kidnapped as a baby.  He may not remember certain events or intellectually understand them, but he is feeling the emotions.  He knows on a primitive, subconscious level that things are very wrong in his world.  I see those kids as not having any feelings of security which are so important to children.  They feel (or know) that their world can literally blow up at any moment.

[henripootel]

Plus as I said lock downs and exploding club houses and people trying to kidnap mommy and her losing her baby have to be scary as hell for a little kid.

Fair point.  I do think I'd be a bit more likely to believe Abel's troubled mind if he was a couple years older.  I mean we're stuck with the timeline such as it is, but I think I could believe this storyline if Abel was 8 or 10.  I'll have to yield to your experience with 4-year-olds - I can't get my 1-year-old to stop eating carpet fuzz so I guess they learn a lot pretty fast around this age.

Edited October 23, 2014 by henripootel

[Febgirl]

I posted this on another thread, but am posting it here given all of the Abel chatter,  I took (perhaps too close of a ) look at next week's preview, and part of it shows Gemma freaking out in her bedroom I think, and this was sort of alluded to in the EW story about the show, 

I think Abel kills Gemma's birds-- usually an early sign of a budding sociopath.

[Disraeli Ears]

Marks also threatened Jax and SAMCRO in an episode earlier this season when the two were in Marks's car talking about the need for trust in their relationship (after he probably saw through Jax's lie about SAMCRO not being behind the recent hit on the Chinese). Marks said something like, "Don't cross me Jackson...I will have no remorse in killing you or any of the Sons." Jax went full-on veiled angry face as Marks was saying this to him in the car. I think this provided him with the motivation to take out Marks.

I may be reading too much into that scene, but I thought that when Marks said "...or any of the Sons," it sounded like he meant not just THE Sons, but Jax's sons, too. As in, Marks would kill anyone Jax loves. Anyway...

This whole plan to take out Marks seems like the dumbest thing Jax could ever want to do, but then I thought his plans to ruin Pope were idiotic and everything magically worked out (including saving Tig, who really didn't deserve to be saved). I'm kind of expecting Jax to triumph over Marks in the end, despite the fact that some Podunk motorcycle club would never outsmart and outgun an organization like Marks has. Sutter and Co. will think they are sooooo clever.

And Gemma will get off scot-free (i.e., Jax will never find out she killed Tara). Maybe. I could see this happening.

I'm not sure why I even watch this show anymore - it's like a train wreck I can't turn away from.

[Madding crowd]

I don't think Abel has every had much of a secure life. He won't remember being kidnapped as a baby, but it would have interferred with his bonding and feeling safe with his parents. He now has multiple caregivers, none of whom care about  him except Gemma and Wendy when she is around. He spends the majority of his time with hookers, junkies and Chuckie. I think he will repeat what he heard to Wendy, which will probably get her killed.

 

The whole cabin scene with Gemma seemed off to me. Since when does Jax order Gemma to do something without personally asking her? I also don't see why she would be all that helpful in the situation; she is far from the nurturing type. I would  think Lyla or one of the hookers would be better. Of course  it was to show Gemma breaking down, but too heavy handed.

 

Im worried about Nero know and he is the only character  I care about. Nothing against Wendy, but she has zero personality or smarts.

[henripootel]

And Gemma will get off scot-free (i.e., Jax will never find out she killed Tara). Maybe. I could see this happening.

 

Biggest reason I disagree with this, Disraeli, is that I think there's exactly zero chance that Sutter is gonna let pass the opportunity to give Gemma a huge death scene.  This'll be his valentine to his wife, and her Emmy reel, count on it.