S04.E04: The Apprentice

[ShadowFacts]

It's a writing fail because Rumpel can and has switched the daggers at will. Plus he could just do whatever she said regardless of daggers. Which also makes it a big Hook brain fail.

[KingOfHearts]

Rumple's "the hand was never cursed" is a load of malarkey. Whenever Hook punched someone, it was with his left hand. The punching itself was impulsive and OoC for him too, imo. Rumple was lying through his teeth this whole episode. He totally cursed the hand before giving it to Hook.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Whenever Hook punched someone, it was with his left hand. The punching itself was impulsive and OoC for him too, imo.

Isn't Hook right-handed? Of course, he has to be now and has had plenty of time to adjust, but I don't recall whether there was any indication of handedness in "The Crocodile" or "Good Form" before he lost the hand. I have a vague image of him swordfighting with his right hand in "The Crocodile," but I suppose they could say he was playing the "I'm not really left-handed" game. Still, you're right that it's odd that he was suddenly hitting impulsively with a hand he hasn't had in centuries. He'd be more likely to forget to use his left hand. If it was cursed, it was a rather lame curse because those were pretty mild actions to spur a case of "I'll do anything to get rid of this evil hand!"

 

Still, I suspect that all they cared about was getting Hook into a situation where he was forced to work with Rumple and afraid to tell Emma what's going on. They didn't put much thought into how they got there. This is one of those "tell a five-year-old and see if she can spot the plot holes" situations. And obviously they didn't have any five-year-olds handy (if they need some, I have a choir full of them that I would be happy to FedEx. As a bonus, they're experts on Frozen).

[Dani-Ellie]

Rumple's "the hand was never cursed" is a load of malarkey. Whenever Hook punched someone, it was with his left hand.

 

Thank you. I couldn't remember if Hook was a lefty when he had both hands but even still, 300-odd years of not having a left hand should have made it the non-dominant hand just by default. If it really was all Hook, one would think he would have been doing things with his right hand. Rumple's story about the reason the hand was cursed may have been a bunch of horseshit but I do think he did something to it. Since Rumple really only gets what he wants out of double- and triple-crosses, he would need a reason for Hook to come back to him to take the hand back. I think the "it was all you, dearie" business afterward was just head games.

[Curio]

I'm really hoping the scene where Anna forces Rumple to tell her the truth is a set up for later this season in Storybrooke. I would love nothing more than for someone to hold that dagger and force him to come clean about everything he's lied about, and then he just goes on a huge tangent that lasts 10 minutes.

 

Belle, I gave you a fake dagger when I proposed to you. I gave you the real one back on our honeymoon, but I realized I like having power more than you so I switched them back again. I killed Zelena and altered the security tape to make it seem like she committed suicide. Belle told me not to kill her, but I did it anyways because Zelena was responsible for Neal's death and she kept me as her prisoner for weeks. And you know what? I don't even feel bad about it. Did I inadvertently open the time portal because of it? Yes. I also lied about not knowing anything about Anna and Elsa. Oh, and Hook? I actually have no idea what's on that VHS tape, I just found it while cleaning the back room one day. And your hand was cursed all along, but you should have figured that out if you weren't so daft. Finally, David... I actually hate your new haircut. It looked better longer.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Curio

[RadioGirl27]

Still, I suspect that all they cared about was getting Hook into a situation where he was forced to work with Rumple and afraid to tell Emma what's going on. They didn't put much thought into how they got there. This is one of those "tell a five-year-old and see if she can spot the plot holes" situations. And obviously they didn't have any five-year-olds handy (if they need some, I have a choir full of them that I would be happy to FedEx. As a bonus, they're experts on Frozen).

Really, if they wanted to have Hook and Rumple working together, they should have try to find a good reason, but instead of it they are reusing one of thier worst storylines from season 3 and making it even worse.

[Jean]

 

Rumple was lying through his teeth this whole episode. He totally cursed the hand before giving it to Hook.

I think Rumple was lying through his teeth but I don't think he cursed that hand. It was a classic case of the placebo effect. Rumple's ingenuity is based on the fact that he can read everyone so well and use their own insecurities or desires against themselves. That's his ultimate satisfaction, that people usually bring about their own downfall.  It's pretty awesome and completely sadistic. It's not enough for him that people fall, he wants them to know that it's their own damn fault on top of it.

 

Look at the game he played with Anna. He already poisoned the apprentice and in actual fact gave her the antidote and told her so. He wanted her to know that it was her "nice-ness" that doomed the apprentice.

[Notwisconsin]

 Belle would be more likely to trust the dagger lie reveal if just about anyone other than Hook told her about it.

How do you know that she doesn't know that the dagger isn't fake? It would be far cooler if she knew what was actually going on and was fine with it.

[kili]

Isn't Hook right-handed? Of course, he has to be now and has had plenty of time to adjust, but I don't recall whether there was any indication of handedness in "The Crocodile" or "Good Form" before he lost the hand. I have a vague image of him swordfighting with his right hand in "The Crocodile," but I suppose they could say he was playing the "I'm not really left-handed" game.

 

He's right-handed when he was with Liam and has no reason to play the Prince-Bride-Left-Handed game.

 

Plus, I agree. If you haven't used your left-hand for 300 years, you aren't going to start using it as your dominant hand to grab and punch people. People who have a broken arm for a few weeks have to adjust to using it again when it is back. Rumple probably did some cursing there to juice the result.

[Camera One]

Then, Belle could do a Trash the Wedding Dress.  I'm sure all of Storybrooke will cheer.  Oh wait, no one even went to the wedding.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Camera One

[Donny Ketchum]

This episode was interesting to me in that I'd thought that Rumple had done something to Anna.  Now it appears as though someone else was responsible for what happened to her since she got away without a scratch.  And I'm curious to see the true culprit.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Donny Ketchum

[Shanna Marie]

The thing with Henry is bugging me more and more the more I think about it. It's a weird thing to have stuck in my craw, given everything else. Maybe it was because I didn't really hear the "I'm not okay with it but I want you to be happy" bit at the beginning on my first viewing (since my mother thought it had gone to commercial and resumed her detailed tale of her last doctor's visit that I had already heard on the phone the day of the visit -- ah, the joys of elderly parents). But anyway, that bit bugs me. There are plenty of reasons to have reservations about Captain Hook as a potential romantic partner for someone you care about, but as usual for this show, it doesn't work in context.

 

For one thing, why even bother with that scene when it didn't change anything? Why not just start with Emma asking Hook out? Then they could have spent about 30 extra seconds on the date to show them starting a conversation so we'd have a sense of what they talked about. The optimist in me is hoping that maybe they're showing that Henry can be supportive of his moms' romantic choices without necessarily agreeing with them, and so maybe he's not as totally keen on Regina with Robin Hood as he seems but just wants her to be happy. The pessimist in me is afraid that this is a setup to Henry learning something about Hook while working at Gold's store and being able to be all "I knew it wasn't a good idea" to Emma later.

 

For another thing, it's a weird conversation for a mother and son to have without any follow-up. I don't think that a mother necessarily needs to consult her pre-teen about her dating life, but if she does and he tells her he's not okay with it, there should probably be some follow-up. Shouldn't she ask why he's not okay? Is he just uncomfortable with her dating, does he have specific reasons not to be okay? Did the guy do or say something that makes him uncomfortable? As it is, it sounds like she's just dismissing any concerns Henry might have (then again, this is Henry, so that's probably a good idea, but why ask him in the first place?).

 

And then what does it even mean to say he's not okay but just wants her to be happy? If he thinks that this person makes his mother happy, then why isn't he okay and why say he isn't? That's getting to Stereotypical Jewish Mother levels of passive-aggression: "Don't mind me, your only child, the one you gave away at birth. My happiness isn't important as long as you're happy."

 

Then when you add it to the Regina stuff, we've got another case like the way the Charmings are between Neal and Hook, where they're totally in favor of the guy who knocked up their teenage daughter and left her alone in jail and leery of the guy who's been totally there for her and saved their lives. While Hook didn't get off to the best start with Henry, since then Henry was brought home from Neverland on the Jolly Roger and given the captain's cabin, it was Hook who brought Henry and Emma back to Storybrooke, Hook was the one who helped Henry deal with the loss of his father, and Hook was instrumental in Emma's change of heart to stay in Storybrooke. But Henry's not okay with him while thinking it's great that Regina's married boyfriend doesn't love his wife enough to be able to save her from a curse because he's so into Regina.

 

And all this is out of character for Henry. He's the storybook geek who wanted Emma to restore the book's happy endings, so it's hard to imagine him being on board with splitting up Robin Hook and Maid Marian. He thought it was cool that Emma was in the storybook, and Hook was there with her, so you'd think Henry would be seeing them as one of the book's couples. Though I guess now he thinks the book's wrong? And just a few days ago, he was the one who sent Hook with the book to talk to Emma, which seemed like a good sign he was okay with Hook being part of Emma's life.

 

So I'm back to wondering what that little scene was even supposed to mean.

[Ariah]

And just a few days ago, he was the one who sent Hook with the book to talk to Emma, which seemed like a good sign he was okay with Hook being part of Emma's life.

 

So I'm back to wondering what that little scene was even supposed to mean.

 

I'm hoping Henry was not ok with the fact that Emma did the asking (as in 'the man should ask you out first'). It's also very shallow, but it saves something from Henry's character... Well, alright, there's not much to save anyhow.

[YaddaYadda]

Emma clearly discussed this with Henry, I don't understand why she would actually go for this if Henry is not okay with Hook, period.  So while I ripped Henry for this initially, Emma would just not dismiss how Henry feels.  Asking someone on a date and if said date goes well as it did, it opens the doors for a relationship.  Then what?  Henry sulks?  Goes to live with Regina and her jerk boyfriend because he doesn't really want to be around Hook?

 

So that whole 15 seconds is completely WTF for me.

Edited October 22, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

So, Henry is not okay with his mom dating his dad's step-dad, but he's okay with breaking up a marriage so Regina can keep her four-day boyfriend? Clearly his judgement is so screwy that Regina and Emma aren't listening to him. (Not that it's necessarily right, but it seems to be the case.) This is one area where "it's grown-up stuff you wouldn't understand" definitely applies.

Edited October 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Hook was never Henry's father's stepdad, so I don't think that's a reason Henry would not be okay with Hook seeing Emma.

I also don't think Henry and Hook's bonding was as deep as others made it out to be at the time. Henry did not possess all of his memories, some of which included Hook committing harmful deeds against Henry's family members.

Anyway, liking someone as a person does not always mean you would like that person to be in a relationship with someone you care deeply about. I have issues with Henry's involvement in both his mothers' love lives, but not cheerleading for Emma and Hook isn't one of them. And considering the relationships he's rooted for in the past, maybe his having reservations about Hook and Emma is a good thing.

[Mari]

Hook was never Henry's father's stepdad, so I don't think that's a reason Henry would not be okay with Hook seeing Emma.

I also don't think Henry and Hook's bonding was as deep as others made it out to be at the time. Henry did not possess all of his memories, some of which included Hook committing harmful deeds against Henry's family members.

Anyway, liking someone as a person does not always mean you would like that person to be in a relationship with someone you care deeply about. I have issues with Henry's involvement in both his mothers' love lives, but not cheerleading for Emma and Hook isn't one of them. And considering the relationships he's rooted for in the past, maybe his having reservations about Hook and Emma is a good thing.

Yeah--I have no problem with Henry not being an enthusiastic Captain Swanner.  My problem stems entirely from him apparently having reservations about Hook, when within minutes he's cheerleading psycho mom and telling her how fabulous it is that her married boyfriend's wife (that psycho mom failed to kill) is cursed. 

 

I can't reconcile the two scenes as belonging to the same character--at least not without the character being a giant hypocrite.  Not without more information on why he wouldn't be okay with Hook. 

[FabulousTater]

 Henry did not possess all of his memories, some of which included Hook committing harmful deeds against Henry's family members.

Wait, would Henry even know about anything Hook did against his family members? 

 

Hook's intro to Emma and Snow was in the Enchanted Forest and Henry wasn't there and these people don't share information. Emma and Snow didn't know about Frankenstein until something happened that David had to tell them that they missed stuff and we saw Emma didn't tell Henry much about the Enchanted Forest adventures when he asked her other than to say it wasn't fun.

 

Later when Hook arrived in Storybrooke he was working under the radar for the most part and never came into contact with Henry so there's no reason to think he knows about anything Hook was up to. And after Hook shot Belle over the town line and got hit by a car, the next morning when the Charmings got back to the loft they didn't tell Henry what happened. They glossed over it.

 

The only time that I recall that Henry wold've been privy to Hook's villain mode was when Hook stabbed Rumple (which frankly Rumple had it coming). But Henry has forgiven all sorts of garbage from Regina and Rumple himself. I don't see what his problem is with Hook other than the writers want it to be that way (especially since Hook helped save his little worthless tween butt in Neverland and that should count for something considering that Regina actually killed Henry once and Rumple is the one that has been using his "family" like meat puppets for much of their lives).

 

Henry is a plot device. I think that's all there is to it. I agree with whoever upthread said that Henry was in that first scene in front of Granny's diner with Emma because apparently the writers don't want us to forget that he's Emma's son (no matter how much I want to pretend otherwise). That scene would've worked just as well to show Emma was nervous by having her stand outside by herself gathering her courage before walking in to ask Hook out. Actually, I would've preferred that over seeing Henry at all (or ever).

Edited October 22, 2014 by FabulousTater

[YaddaYadda]

Henry did not possess all of his memories, some of which included Hook committing harmful deeds against Henry's family members.

 

Like his mom?  The one who chased after his grandmother for I don't know long, cursed an entire realm and took away everyone's happy ending and condemned his mother to growing up without her parents?

 

But she's not a villain so I guess it's all A-OKAY!

 

I hate the imbalance of this show so much!  And I still say Henry needs to go away. 

[Curio]

The pessimist in me is afraid that this is a setup to Henry learning something about Hook while working at Gold's store and being able to be all "I knew it wasn't a good idea" to Emma later.

 

I guess I'm a pessimist, because I'm just waiting for the moment Rumple decides to give Henry - his brand new pawn shop employee - the seemingly boring "task" of cleaning out the old VHS tapes. I could totally see Rumple twisting the situation to his advantage by making it appear like Henry is doing him a favor by categorizing all the VHS tapes in the back room, but of course, Henry would just happen to stumble upon that fake Hook tape.

 

If it came down to that, I'm genuinely curious to see if Emma would believe her son about the video tape, or trust Hook that something more is going on here. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Curio

[InsertWordHere]

I was referring specifically to Henry's first run in with Hook, which involved Hook attempting to kill Henry's newly discovered grandfather. As poor of a grandfather as I find Rumple to be, I don't think Henry finds him so or would think kindly on someone who sticks a hook into his chest. Same with Hook and Regina's later mutual double cross that led to Regina's torture. As much as I fault Regina for that situation, Henry wouldn't. Henry would only see the result, which was Regina, weak and in pain, and Hook showing very little remorse (not that I blame him) over his part in it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Hook was never Henry's father's stepdad, so I don't think that's a reason Henry would not be okay with Hook seeing Emma.

He kind of was. Maybe not legally, but Milah and Hook were pretty much married imo. Plus, Hook had a close relationship with Henry's dad. He has more reasons to have a better connection to Hook than Robin Hood. I don't see why Henry would outright say "no" without giving a valid reason. That line was completely devoid of any foundation or thinking-through. You'd think something like that would have a greater effect on Emma or be explored in at least one quick scene.

 

 

Yeah--I have no problem with Henry not being an enthusiastic Captain Swanner.  My problem stems entirely from him apparently having reservations about Hook, when within minutes he's cheerleading psycho mom and telling her how fabulous it is that her married boyfriend's wife (that psycho mom failed to kill) is cursed.

I don't necessarily either, but when you compare it to Robin like you said, it makes no sense. At least Henry knows Hook a little. Robin is a total stranger. 

 

He pushed Emma for Monkey Boy, for heaven's sakes. Even Emma, who had no knowledge of her boyfriend's intentions, smelt something was off. Henry's just not a good judge of persons. At all.

Edited October 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't necessarily either, but when you compare it to Robin like you said, it makes no sense. At least Henry knows Hook a little. Robin is a total stranger.

 

I've got it! Henry is only going by our-world reputation. Captain Hook = villain, Robin Hood = noble and awesome. So Emma being with Hook = *hestiance* but Regina being with Robin Hood = the bestest ever. The actual circumstances don't matter to him.

 

At least this is how I'm choosing to see it because otherwise yeah, no freakin' sense for Henry. Much like most of Henry's material thus far this season.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FabulousTater]

Same with Hook and Regina's later mutual double cross that led to Regina's torture. As much as I fault Regina for that situation, Henry wouldn't. Henry would only see the result, which was Regina, weak and in pain, and Hook showing very little remorse (not that I blame him) over his part in it.

As best as I can recall, Henry doesn't know Hook was involved there. Actually, I don't think anyone outside of Regina and Hook know he was involved in her getting nabbed by Growen and Tamara. Henry knows Regina has tried to kill Emma and knows that Regina killed Graham, but all of that is two thumbs-up ok? I don't buy it. I call bullshit on the writers with this. Today, Henry has a problem with Hook "because reasons", and tomorrow he'll have a problem with Snow "because reasons". Henry isn't a character that makes sense because he's a plot device. His sole purpose is to prop Regina.

Edited October 22, 2014 by FabulousTater

[InsertWordHere]

He kind of was. Maybe not legally, but Milah and Hook were pretty much married imo. Plus, Hook had a close relationship with Henry's dad.

I strongly disagree. Milah and Hook as a couple never raised Baelfire. That is the standard for almost but not legally stepfather in my book. For that matter, Neal did not raise Henry. He was barely involved in Henry's life, making his supposedly close relationship with Hook a moot point, IMO. Neither of these father figures did much fathering, regardless of their desire to do so.

[kili]

I guess I'm a pessimist, because I'm just waiting for the moment Rumple decides to give Henry - his brand new pawn shop employee - the seemingly boring "task" of cleaning out the old VHS

 

LOL. That's why I had to kind of laugh when Zelena said "Oops" about not detailing all the consequences of using that key to revive Rumple. That's a move straight from Rumpelstiltskin playbook and they both knew it.

 

That is why Hook needs to tell Emma right away if he has even half a brain. He knows Rumple doesn't need a minion to hold down old men so they can be sucked into a hat. Rumple is just going to string him along long enough until "Oops" - Hook either ends up dead or Emma "accidently" discovers everything. Probably both. Hook is just prolonging the pain and self-loathing. The sooner you can get that imp off your back, the better. It's not like every single Charming hasn't made a deal with the Rumple. Emma will think of something. Heck, she only had to go on a road trip with the old goat. Charming had to fight a dragon and be his wingman (don't know which was the more dangerous task). Snow had to shed some hair. Henry's deal was luckily rejected and left on the editing room floor.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I've got it! Henry is only going by our-world reputation. Captain Hook = villain, Robin Hood = noble and awesome. So Emma being with Hook = *hestiance* but Regina being with Robin Hood = the bestest ever. The actual circumstances don't matter to him.

 

Yeah, that came up in my mind too. Henry is very black and white - You're either a "villain" or a "HERO!!!" to him. It's a philosophy I vehemently disagree with, like most of the screwed up morality on this show, but hopefully it'll come back to bite him and Regina.

 

This kid seriously needs some friends. 

 

 

I strongly disagree. Milah and Hook as a couple never raised Baelfire.

Agree to disagree, then. :)

Edited October 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Henry sudden anti-Hook reservations may come back into play, but the placement of that scene without any explanation or context was really awkward. I agree with those who think that Henry/Emma scenes was mainly put in to show that Henry and Emma are still interacting. 

[stealinghome]

The only time that I recall that Henry wold've been privy to Hook's villain mode was when Hook stabbed Rumple (which frankly Rumple had it coming).

Henry also was there when Hook stole the enchanted bean that almost doomed everyone in Storybrooke to death and ultimately resulted in Henry's kidnapping by Owen and Tamara. I'd probably hold a grudge about that, if I were him! Plus, there was the whole run-in with Zelena last season where Hook tried to put Henry on a boat with Smee and send him to NYC because he couldn't fess up to the cursed lips thing...not Hook's shining moment. I think it's perfectly understandable for Henry to have rather mixed feelings on Hook--not to hate him, but to be somewhat wary.

 

I also agree that Henry's cheerleading for Outlaw Queen is WTF-worthy, but I chalk it up to the Regina Effect, and I don't think it has to mean that all of his other relationships be WTF-worthy. Honestly, I would think it was just as weird if he started massively stanning for Captain Swan, too (if not nearly as morally objectionable for all the obvious reasons).

 

But honestly, I really doubt it's going to be a big deal. Henry's clearly going to be wrapped up in Regina Drama this whole half-season--I doubt he'll have much substantive to say about Captain Swan one way or the other. I suspect his line in this episode was really to reinforce Emma's doubts and nerves more than anything.

[InsertWordHere]

 

As best as I can recall, Henry doesn't know Hook was involved there.

Henry was present when Hook came into the room (after he awesomely realized the consequences of his actions and did something about it) and was witness to the reactions his adult family members had to Hook (IIRC, Emma or someone even said, "No thanks to you" in response to Hook's explanation as to why he was seeking parley with them) so I'm pretty sure he put it together. Later that same episode, Emma clearly says "Hook" in Henry's hearing when she tries to use the bean and finds it gone. Henry was kidnapped almost immediately after these events.

 

I guess I just don't see why Henry's feelings about the very messed up relationship between a married man (and I don't recall Henry exactly caring that David was married when he was pushing for Snowing in Season 1) and Henry's emotionally unstable mother who he is being forced to parent at the moment are being compared to any reservations Henry would have about a man who did not make a good first impression on Henry. I dislike Henry having to coddle Regina, but I'm honestly not surprised by it.

 

I also think people have a tendency, even in healthy relationships (which Henry and Regina and Henry and Gold are not), to forgive family more easily than unconnected people. Regina and Rumple get away with a lot precisely because of their connection to Henry. Hook thankfully does not receive the same treatment.

Edited October 22, 2014 by InsertWordHere

[kili]

As best as I can recall, Henry doesn't know Hook was involved there. Actually, I don't think anyone outside of Regina and Hook know he was involved in her getting nabbed by Growen and Tamara.

 

Henry must have some kind of inkling. When they are all in Rumple's shop near the end of 3A, Rumple produces a cuff which he claims he got off the body of Tamara. Regina snarks at Hook that she hasn't forgotten his part in that (obviously having already forgetten the part this occured while she was trying to get him killed using him as Malificient-bait). Rumple explains the purpose and has Henry (wearing his Pan Body) put the cuff on.

 

Henry did read how Prince Charles helped save Princess Lei in the book, so he does know some of the good things Hook has done. He was still Henry when he was given the keys to the Captain's Quarters in Neverland, so he knows Hook was a part of saving him. Henry also so Hook working with everybody to defeat Pan in Storybrooke. Hook retored Emma's memory and brought them back to Storybrooke. He does know that Hook knew his father and that Hook tried to save him from the flying monkeys. He knows that Hook went with his Mom to confront Zelena and somehow Emma lost her powers.  Then Hook joined Emma, Hood, Regina and Charming to get Baby Neal back.  So, Henry cannot be unaware that Hook does do some things on the good side.

Edited October 22, 2014 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

I find Henry's quick judgements of his mothers' date choices snotty. Coming from Henry specifically, especially at his age, is more of a know-it-all attitude than a "sweet kid is just naive and trying to help!" essence. It's not just with dating, but he seems to think everyone revolves around him and his opinions. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if we find out he's biologically Regina's instead of Emma's for that reason alone.

Edited October 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

Plus, there was the whole run-in with Zelena last season where Hook tried to put Henry on a boat with Smee and send him to NYC because he couldn't fess up to the cursed lips thing...not Hook's shining moment.

Oh yes, because Henry's plan of action (that Hook stopped him from completing) of running away back to NYC by stealing his mom's car that he doesn't know how to drive was Einstein material and Hook should've totally let him do that. As imbecilic and rash as Hook's plan was it was better than Henry's, at least Hook and Smee know how to  steer a boat. Henry just needs to be written off or killed. The character doesn't add anything to the show and if anything he drags everyone's intelligence level down about 100 points when they're around him. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

So, Henry cannot be unaware that Hook does do some things on the good side.

Sure, I agree--which is probably why he isn't like "Mom, wtf are you thinking, dating this guy???" He's definitely seen some of the good Hook has done. But he's also seen some of the bad, and I think it's entirely fair that some of that bad gives him pause.

 

As best as I can recall, Henry doesn't know Hook was involved there. Actually, I don't think anyone outside of Regina and Hook know he was involved in her getting nabbed by Growen and Tamara.

Henry was in the loft when they were all confabing at the start of 2x22 and Emma says explicitly to Hook "No thanks to you. Regina just told us you were working with Tamara and Greg to get your revenge." And then Hook says he knows where Tamara and Greg are hiding. I grant that Henry is the Truest Stupid Ever, but given that he knew Regina tried to get the diamond and that Greg and Tamara took it (and her for torture), there's no way he can't realize that Hook was party to all that.

 

I find Henry's quick judgements of his mothers' date choices snotty. Coming from Henry specifically, especially at his age, is more of a know-it-all attitude than a "sweet kid is just naive and trying to help!" essence.

This I totally agree with (it's also a little creepy on top of snotty). It might--might--work if Henry was still 10 and a cute and naive and sweet little nugget. It doesn't work when he's 12 going on 16.

Edited October 22, 2014 by stealinghome

[FabulousTater]

And Hook came back and tried to help out, which for a kid that goes around talking about heroes being heroes because they do the right thing and save people that should be meaningful to Henry because it's the same logic he's used to excuse all the other "villains". I find it obscenely hypocritical for Henry to act like Regina farts rainbows when she's done waaaaaaay more horrible shit to him directly and to everyone else, and has never apologized for it, and yet Hook is the one he has a problem with. Ya, whatever, Henry, you little shit.

 

ETA: 

I grant that Henry is the Truest Stupid Ever, but given that he knew Regina tried to get the diamond and that Greg and Tamara took it (and her for torture), there's no way he can't realize that Hook was party to all that.

Sure there is. Characters on this show only have knowledge of facts when convenient (for the writers). Snow and Charming for example, despite Emma telling Mary Margaret point blank that Henry's father was no hero and that Henry didn't need to know anything about that ugly history, and that Emma had her brakes firmly applied with anything having to do with Nealfire and she was basically keeping as much distance away from him as possible at all times because he emotionally gutted her what with his sending her underage teenage pregnant self to prison and never looking back, and despite all that, Snowing named their son after him because "there's no way [they] can't realize" that he hurt Emma so bad. I mean, surely Snowing could put two and two together!

Edited October 22, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

I don't disagree that Henry has reasons to be wary of Hook, but Hook has also done good things since -- even putting himself between Henry and the flying monkeys. But Henry has been seemingly okay with Hook even after getting his memories back. Henry sent the book with Hook to go talk to Emma about her decision to leave Storybrooke. You'd think if he wasn't okay with the relationship between them he'd have protested about Hook going or would have gone himself (since it was a decision that affected both of them). He was enthusiastic about Emma's time travel adventures with Hook. That's why it's weird that a couple of days later he has a problem with Hook.

 

And the way he phrased it was just weird, which created a weird scene. He's not okay with it, but he's pushing Emma to do it? He knows it makes her happy, but he's not okay with it? If he's not okay with it because he thinks Hook is a villain and might bring harm to Emma, then would he think being with him will make her happy? And why would he push her to ask him out if he thinks he's bad for Emma? That's what I don't get, the not okay, but wants her to be happy. That only makes sense if his objections are something purely selfish on his part -- he doesn't really want Emma to date at all and would rather keep her to himself, but he gets that she wants to; there's someone else he likes more that he'd prefer she date, but she doesn't like that person and will be happier with this one. And it's weird that she asks if he's okay then doesn't stop and ask for details when he says he isn't. If this is going to be serious and going to go somewhere, then he's going to be a part of Henry's life and she needs to hear and address his concerns.

[RadioGirl27]

I agree with you Shanna Marie. Nothing in that scene made sense.

I can accept that Henry has problems with Emma dating Hook, even if it contradict some things showed in the show last season. My biggest complaint it's him being happy with Marian being cursed and Robin loving Regina. That's something season 1 Henry wouldn't have done.

[AudienceofOne]

For one thing, why even bother with that scene when it didn't change anything?

 

 

 

In an entire episode of shorthands, this was writer shorthand for "Emma has discussed this with Henry". Like most of this episode's shorthands, the writers didn't think it through.

[tribeca]

JMHO Henry's sweeping looked like Mickey Mouse in the fantasia movie.  Thought it was done purposely that way.

[pezgirl7]

What if the reason Henry has issues with his mom dating Hook has nothing to do with Hook? The last person he saw Emma date was Walsh, who turned out to be a flying monkey. Maybe he's just wary of Emma dating anyone, cause it's kinda weird to see your mom date someone. Although that doesn't really explain why he would be A-OK with Regina dating someone and not Emma.

[KAOS Agent]

I think the Henry/Emma scene was definitely just to show that Emma does still see her son and talk to him. With Emma heavily tied into the Frozen/Snow Queen storyline and Henry off on Operation Mongoose, I think we'll see very little of those two interacting and they're trying to head off the inevitable complaints - especially since Henry is lying/keeping secrets from Emma about what he's doing while hanging out with Regina. It's also an issue in that Regina has been really awful to Emma since the whole Marian thing and Henry hanging only with Regina makes it appear like he's taken sides. I guess if you're sympathetic to Regina about "losing her son" to Emma, this type of thing is cheer-worthy, but others will view this situation as disturbing.

 

Unfortunately, I don't see this book storyline being wrapped up in this half season since the Frozen characters are not in the book, so Operation Mongoose is most likely here for the long term unless it's used as the catalyst to launch the arc for 4B which I doubt. My expectation is that this is the writers' idea of great Henry/Regina bonding and may be planning it as a springboard for Season 5 or if the show were to get cancelled this year, they could wrap everything up using the author storyline as a series finale.

[Actionmage]

Although that doesn't really explain why he would be A-OK with Regina dating someone and not Emma.

 

For this show, I can see Henry glad that Regina isn't hatching murder plots and various curses while making love eyeballs at Robin. With Emma, Henry knows that, even with her powers, Emma is not going around causing havoc for no good reason/ selfish reasons/ it's a day ending in y. 

[Camera One]

Henry sudden anti-Hook reservations may come back into play, but the placement of that scene without any explanation or context was really awkward. I agree with those who think that Henry/Emma scenes was mainly put in to show that Henry and Emma are still interacting. 

 

 

In an entire episode of shorthands, this was writer shorthand for "Emma has discussed this with Henry". Like most of this episode's shorthands, the writers didn't think it through.

 

I think it's a combination of the above.  When I watched it, I assumed it was just a suspense kinda thing.  What is Henry and Emma talking about?  Who's in the diner?  If someone hadn't mentioned it a thread, I wouldn't have known Emma and Hook were going to have a date, so that would have been a surprise.  I also thought it was what someone else said, that Henry wasn't "ok" with Emma being the one to ask Hook because his mom deserves to be swept off her feet and not the other way around blah blah blah.  Dumb scene, but it's really a blink-and-you'll-miss-it.  Otherwise, Henry would have had a talk with Regina about his feeling re: Emma dating again.

[Shanna Marie]

In an entire episode of shorthands, this was writer shorthand for "Emma has discussed this with Henry". Like most of this episode's shorthands, the writers didn't think it through.

I think you meant "series" not "episode." But yeah, I've come to the conclusion that this was a little throwaway bit that they didn't put enough thought into to realize that it actually opened a can of worms (like so very many things in this series). They were ticking off the "Emma has discussed this with Henry" box while also playing into the ongoing thread in the episode of "Awww, little Emma is going on her first real date!" I suspect that Henry was being cast in the family role of overprotective brother, and it was just meant to mean that no man is good enough for Emma, but this one will do since he makes her happy (kind of mirroring David's gruffly overprotective dad act). No one in the writing staff probably even considered how the line really came across or the fact that this should have been a serious conversation rather than a throwaway line if they were going to phrase things that way.

[YaddaYadda]

So I was thinking about Rumple using love as a weapon which is something he did against both Anna and Hook in this episode (though Hook really had no business pocking the bear) and I realized that Henry did the same thing to Rumple at the end to get that job at the shop of horrors.

 

He blatantly used Rumple's "love" for Neal against him to get him to give him a job.  I guess he's really learning!

[darkestboy]

Not usually fond of Hook episodes but this was good though.

The hand deal went down an interesting road with Rumple.

Even the date stuff with Hook and Emma worked well.

Not sure either Elsa or the Snow Queen really needed to be in the ep as they didn't have much to do.

Nice seeing Will again, though what's happened to Alice and Anastasia though?

The apprentice plot also has promise.

Great scenes with Anna and Rumple too, 8/10

[Rumsy4]

Just finished re-watching the episode. Charming's comment that Hook "must have changed" just because Emma looked happy after her date made no sense. What does that have to do with anything? This falls under the category of people spouting lines for the sake of the plot (has Hook changed or not), but doesn't fit logically with what's happening at the moment. Does Charming think bad boy pirates can't show a girl a good time? Isn't that what he seemed worried about before they left for the date--that he would show her a "very" good time? Ugh, Show...

 

The Hook/Rumple scenes were great as far the two actors working together, but Hook did come across as uncharacteristically stupid for pushing the Dark One too far. 

 

Couldn't the director or someone teach Jared how to sweep? It's clear he has no idea how that's done.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't understand Charming's apprehension about Hook. He seems to be just going off the "pirate" label which is a bit unfair. Hook has been shady in the past, but Charming is more hung up on his profile than his actual actions on the show.

[Camera One]

Hook being shady in the past is precisely the reason why Charming is apprehensive.  If you have a daughter, and you know the boyfriend did one bad thing in the past, you'd be wary for a long time.  And Hook didn't just do one bad thing.

 

 

 

Charming's comment that Hook "must have changed" just because Emma looked happy after her date made no sense. What does that have to do with anything? This falls under the category of people spouting lines for the sake of the plot (has Hook changed or not), but doesn't fit logically with what's happening at the moment. Does Charming think bad boy pirates can't show a girl a good time? Isn't that what he seemed worried about before they left for the date--that he would show her a "very" good time? Ugh, Show...

 

As for Charming's line about changing, it was probably meant to be ironic since we know the whole story.  That was bad, and as you said, it rather defeats the purpose of having Charming be worried.  Or do they want him no longer worried, so it would hit harder when he finds out Hook is working for Rumple.  Anyway, agreed it was a dumb line.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Camera One

[Hanahope]

Nice seeing Will again, though what's happened to Alice and Anastasia though?

 

Well, Alice appeared to have gotten her happy ending at the end of OUATIW, she had a daughter and began to 'write stories.'  We never saw what happened to Will and Anastasia, though it looked like they were happy at the end too.  Hopefully we'll find out more what happened to them and we'll see Anastasia again.

 

Its also possible that this story line of OUAT is pre-OUATIW and we are seeing Will pre-return of Alice, back when the rabbit came to the town and got Will to go get Alice out of the insane asylum.