S05.E01: No Sanctuary

[lulee]

So now we have two incidents of Tyresse versus a horde of walkers where Tyrese comes out the victor, pretty much unscathed. So I fanwank that pre-ZA Tyreese was some sort of raging killing machine and post ZA Tyreese is going overboard trying to atone for that shit. I mean his screaming 'I Wont!' while beating the crap out of that guy raises some red flags. He even said 'You have no idea the things I done." I am thinking there are some things we don't know about our gentle giant.

maybe Tyrese was a Fight Club member.

[Wilowy]

Or a professional fighter and he killed someone. I hope they don't go down that tired path.

[bosawks]

Something about that first walker Carol killed, the one with the broken handcuff around one wrist, got to me.

[LilySilver]

I don't think in the ZA  world you can afford to hold grudges. For the most part, they all have reasons they could hate each other and let it fester. At the end of the day, they can trust each other and would obviously kill and die for one another and that's what counts. No other group has shown this type of loyalty. For God's sake, Garreth brother Alex was the lunch special and all that hipster doofus was worried about was the shell count!!

 This is the crux of the problem with Carol, to me.  (BTW, did she ever confess to Tyrese that she killed his girlfriend? I don't remember that happening in The Grove).  Not to get back into that debate, but Rick didn't "banish" her (and I take issue with whether he actively did so or whether he simply pointed out to her that there was no way it would work for her to come back, and was in fact protecting her in a way by doing so) because she killed someone, per se, but because of what it had done and would do to the unity of their group, to their trust in one another.

 

As someone said upthread, it's a slippery slope and our Sheriff spends a whole lot of time obsessing about that very idea--where the line is.  Clearly, the Termites had crossed that line and for once Rick had no question as to what their fate should be. I think that might be a first!! lol

 

I hope they do revisit the issue of what Carol did and why Rick couldn't accept it, because it's at the core of what makes them different from the "villains" even though they've all done terrible things, as Tyrese acknowledges to Martin in the cabin.  I want to know how much of Carol's humanity is lost--what it has cost her to survive--and whether it's worth it.  Certainly it's worth it to me when I'm watching her kick ass and take names, but when we get back to considering what the point of surviving might be, what it means to be human, etc. it's a different thing entirely.  I hope they don't just drop that thread completely, though I'm not anticipating a lot of sit-down, chit-chat time in the upcoming episode based on the preview.

Edited October 13, 2014 by LilySilver

[lulee]

This is the crux of the problem with Carol, to me. (BTW, did she ever confess to Tyrese that she killed his girlfriend? I don't remember that happening in The Grove) .

yes, after she shot Mika. She and Tyrese talked at the farmhouse table. Edited October 13, 2014 by lulee

[kj4ever]

Something about that first walker Carol killed, the one with the broken handcuff around one wrist, got to me.

I thought damn Andrea, she couldn't even kill herself right...lol

[sorrynotsorry]

Sorry if this has been said I'm still catching up. I don't think Tyreese has totally forgiven Carol. I think hes watching his back and Judiths and he can't go it alone. And: Sexy=Rick! Super sexy=Carol! Boring-Hot Maggie and Eugene

[bosawks]

I'm going to be honest the termites deserved to die just for "We First Always".

I might have a learning disability but even I know that shit is just wrong.

[diebartdie]

The Termites deserved to die the same as any other walker because that is all they were.

[kikismom]

At rifle distance, Dale stood a chance, but when it came to hand-to-hand combat, Dale was "unarmed."

When it came to a battle of wits, Martin was unarmed.

[ghoulina]

I'm going to be honest the termites deserved to die just for "We First Always".

 

I second that. I don't know how Carol was able to concentrate on Hipster Martha Stewart with that ridiculousness scrawled on the wall behind her.

 

 

Sorry if this has been said I'm still catching up. I don't think Tyreese has totally forgiven Carol. I think hes watching his back and Judiths and he can't go it alone.

 

Didn't he say he forgave her, in The Grove? I think he has forgiven her, but that's not the same as being able to trust someone....and I definitely think he was uncomfortable being around her. That's one reason he no longer wanted to stay in The Grove in the first place. And I think Carol could sense the tension between them, because she said she'd help them get to Terminus and then she'd be on her way. 

 

Plus, she probably thought if Rick was there he still wouldn't want her around anyway. But she still risked her life for all of them anyway. 

 

 

edited: because apparently I type like shit when I'm tired.

Edited October 14, 2014 by ghoulina

[kikismom]

So now we have two incidents of Tyresse versus a horde of walkers where Tyrese comes out the victor, pretty much unscathed.  So I fanwank that pre-ZA Tyreese was some sort of raging killing machine and post ZA Tyreese is going overboard trying to atone for that shit.  I mean his screaming 'I Wont!' while beating the crap out of that guy raises some red flags.   He even said 'You have no idea the things I done."  I am thinking  there are some things we don't know about our gentle giant.

Tyreese will be forever haunted by the memory of his last Wal-Mart Black Friday Sale. You can never come back from that.

[Constantinople]

Pity there wasn't a walker who looked like Charlton Heston or Michael York given that Terminus seemed like a combination of Soylent Green (is people!) and Logan's Run (There is..."No sanctuary").

[LilySilver]

Thanks for refreshing my memory on Tyrese and Carol's heart to heart in The Grove.  I guess it was overshadowed in my mind by my horror at the whole Lizzie thing.  If Tyrese has forgiven her, since his reaction was Rick's main concern (aside from the whole existential push-pull, can you come back,etc., which he seemed to resolve much to Herschel's approval in the pre-battle discussion with the Governor), we should be good to go. Great! Gang's all here. Well, except for Beth.

 

I'm sad to admit that I cringe and shake my head a little whenever that little ray of Sunshine, Judith, is onscreen.  I have to imagine that for Rick, seeing her was pure joy for a moment, followed by icy fear in his heart.  To have lost her and had to keep going--excruciating. To think of how they will keep her safe in such a world where walkers are the least of the threat--also excruciating.  How on earth the gang and/or the writers will keep this little cherub alive is beyond me.   This isn't "Everybody Loves Raymond" where the kids can just disappear upstairs and reappear once a season when the storyline demands...

[jonesingjay]

maybe Tyrese was a Fight Club member.

 

You're not suppose to talk about it.

[TexasChic]

I'm going to be honest the termites deserved to die just for "We First Always".

I might have a learning disability but even I know that shit is just wrong.

I said the same thing last season, and it was brought to my attention that it is actually proper English (as opposed to "Us First Always").

 

ETA: This was on TWOP.

Edited October 14, 2014 by TexasChic

[Muffyn]

No, it is not!  When they sprinted by the bones in last year's season finale, I thought "you fools!  You could make stock with those!", which are things this show makes you think!

You'll want to roast those first for better flavor and richer stock.  If you're going to eat people, you may as well make them tasty.

 

Okay, so the first guy getting killed at the trough didn't know for sure he was going to get brained with a bat, then be bled out.  But everyone else just hangs out waiting for the inevitable?  I understand they were tied up and on their knees.  Wouldn't you try to fall over or slide away?  They would probably still kill you, but you leave more of a mess for them to clean up.  They were probably dinged their oh so pretty trough.  If they all tried together they might have been able to take one down.  Even if Rick didn't have hidden weaponry, we know he's not beyond biting a throat when necessary.    

[lulee]

You're not suppose to talk about it.

exactly. That's why Tyrese hasn't acknowledged it.

[nodorothyparker]

Rick did tell her he wouldn't have her around his kids, which is rather ironic given how things turned out.  He also wouldn't let her back in the car, so while maybe not a full-out banishment, he was going to make it as difficult as possible for her to even come back and try to make her case.

 

Tyreese also said after Carol confessed that he forgave her but wouldn't forget.  Which I think is perfectly fair, considering that all of this has happened within the space of only a few days.  I could also see why he would hesitate to label her his friend despite the fact that he otherwise seems to think a lot of her and her abilities.  It's going to take some time for everybody to come to peace with it all.

 

I can see it coming up in discussion at this point, but it seems highly unlikely it's something they can really afford to dwell on.  They don't have any kind of home or shelter, almost no food or supplies, and at least four of them would have almost certainly ended up as dinner had she not exploded the propane tank when she did.  Throw in the fact that Rick's stated primary concern of what Tyreese would do if he knew is gone and that Rick seemed to recognize that she had really put herself out there for them, something she very likely wouldn't or couldn't have done if she was truly cold and unfeeling toward them, and I think they'll have no choice but to find a way to move on from it fairly quickly.

Edited October 14, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[Wilowy]

I do wish this all didn't happen within a handful of days. It's hard as a viewer, after 7 months of nothing, to imagine it so. 

 

Wouldn't it be far better to let at least a few weeks pass in the canon timeline?

It would have more gravitas, wouldn't it?

[jonesingjay]

exactly. That's why Tyrese hasn't acknowledged it.

 

LOL. I was saying you weren't suppose to talk about it. Not him. He's following the rules though. Probably the charter president of the Georgia chapter.

Edited October 14, 2014 by jonesingjay

[bosawks]

Watching Bizarre Foods the day after Terminus is........bizarre.

[lulee]

LOL. I was saying you weren't suppose to talk about it. Not him. He's following the rules though. Probably the charter president of the Georgia chapter.

Right. I'm soooo not a member of Fight Club. On the other hand, Tyrese is probably still traumatized about making Meatloaf into soap.

Edited October 14, 2014 by lulee

[GreyBunny]

You'll want to roast those first for better flavor and richer stock.  If you're going to eat people, you may as well make them tasty.  

 

As a Hannibal fan, I kept watching the Termites handle the bodies and body parts of their butchered victims and nitpicking "Oh, no, no, no!  Don't do it that way!  Hannibal would NEVER do that to food!"

As for why they became cannibals, I think that they started by just killing anyone who arrived and didn't meet their approval.  After a while the bodies started to stack up and they figured out humans are edible so, hey, easy food source. 

In the comics I think it was explained that they trapped and ate humans because they were lousy at hunting animals.

 

[madam magpie]

I do wish this all didn't happen within a handful of days. It's hard as a viewer, after 7 months of nothing, to imagine it so.

Wouldn't it be far better to let at least a few weeks pass in the canon timeline?

It would have more gravitas, wouldn't it?

Yes. That was hard for me too. I kept having to remind myself this was all over only a day or so.

This was a fantastic episode, the best since the pilot for me. The Carol badassery, the Termites getting their due, the reunions, and Morgan! We don't know what the symbol Morgan's following is, do we?

I think Tyreese did kill the guy in the cabin. He had to; it completes a storyline for him and shows evolution. If he didn't, his story backtracks.

The Carol/Daryl relationship seems so special. I like that it isn't sexual and hope it doesn't go there. I feel like in the ZA, what I'd really need is a deeply loyal, loving ally, not someone to make out with. Plus, any time Glen and Maggie have sex, I get so worried about pregnancy. Not that Carol would probably get pregnant, but still. And count me among those for whom the second hug led to bawling.

Everyone was awfully happy at the end. That worries me.

Edited October 14, 2014 by madam magpie

[TexasChic]

What worries me is they now have a bunch of crazy ass cannibals who are probably pretty pissed off that they destroyed their home. 

[bentley]

I know it's silly to worry about the fates of imaginary characters, but I found myself hoping the owners of the teddy bears did not get the same clubbing/throat slashing at the trough that the adults did. In my mind, they were given an overdose of sleeping pills mashed into their food and never woke up. If you think differently, la la la I can't hear you.

 

The hapless Albert has gotten two mentions on the show now. That has to mean we're going to meet him, right??  When the Termites Strike Back, maybe we'll witness him accidentally shooting one of his fellow Termites in the back, and we'll all think to ourselves, "That's GOT to be Albert..."

 

It was so dark in the "Then" train car scenes. How did everyone figure out the crazy guy Glen released from the train car was the bad guy who victimized Gareth and his people? And what happened to the train cars of people we could hear asking for help when Rick and his gang first got to Terminus? Was the crazy guy the only one who got out?

 

I agree that if someone doesn't show some extreme skepticism soon over Eugene and his story, Iif not outright accusing him of lying, 'm not going to have much respect for the group's intelligence.

 

I liked the actor who played Martin. He did a lot with a small role.

[TexasChic]

 

I liked the actor who played Martin. He did a lot with a small role.

I agree. He was annoying as hell (especially the gum chewing), but I think that was intentional. He was definitely memorable.

[Wilowy]

Like someone upthread mentioned, Chris Coy (Martin) is pretty fucking phenomenal. He played a rabies victim (cured, they got to him in time) in Criminal Minds last season, and he was a darling love and we all want him to return at some point. Goes to show that any one-off role can be hella memorable with the right portrayer.

[LordBowen]

The fact that the absolute scariest part of the episode, the most bone chilling scene, had no zombies in it proves just how amazing this show is.

[Turtle]

I have similiar feelings about Carol letting the walkers get Mary instead of just giving her a head shot. Why intentionally inflict that on someone? Whether they deserve it or not, it says something about Carol that she would do that when there was another, more humane option. Slippery slope, slippery slope.

 

 

I sometimes think this entire show is all about the "slippery slope", examining what happens to people when they're forced to do things they could never before imagine just to survive, and what price do they pay for that in long-term humanity/ morality.  It's one thing at a time, one lost luxury, one gruesome act, until all of a sudden you're shooting a pre-teen in the back of the head.

 

I commented recently that I was so tired of how filthy all the Sons of Anarchy look, and last night I realized - they look even dirtier than the Walking Dead survivors! 

 

I don't think Eugene even cares about going to DC in particular; he just need some "mission" to convince people to keep him safe, and getting to DC to cure the walkers is a pretty good story. 

 

I got the impression that Glenn thought the people in that one boxcar were people like him, folks who got lured to Terminus and were being held captive.  So his "that's not us" was really "we don't leave innocent people behind", and not related to saving any of the Terminus people; they didn't know who was in there.  But his reluctance to later wipe out all the Terminites made no sense to me.  They should all know by now that when it comes to any adversary in this world, it's kill or be killed. 

 

And then later when Abe told her that they would talk to them, but not now.

 

 

That really stuck out to me too.  Rosita (I think) said something like "we have to tell them" and he put her off - what was that about?  That they're leaving?  Maybe that they were at Terminus before?  That they know Eugene is full of crap but are going along just to have some sense of purpose? 

 

I think Rick has finally become everything Shane claimed he'd never be--the kill or be killed, trust no-one, put my own before others leader he wasn't able to be earlier in the ZA.  Shane was absolutely right about what it would take to survive, and Rick's had to learn it over and over.

 

I miss Shane.  I really loved him, warts and all, and I really wanted Rick to die instead of Shane because Shane was willing and able to do what it took to survive and to protect those he loved, everything and everyone else be damned (and, I'm not proud of it, but I thought he was a little hot).  Since then, I've liked watching Rick become more like Shane.  But I still miss Shane.

 

Edited October 14, 2014 by Turtle

[diebartdie]

I don't think it has only been a matter of days since the prison fell, more like several weeks. Look at Rick, he hardly has any bruising to his face any more, same with Tyrese. Also, it took the "claimed" gang quite some time to track down Rick. Carol, Tyrese, Judith, Lizzie and Mika were hanging out at The Grove long enough for Tyrese to completely unwind. All of that points to at least a month since the prison fell, possibly even 6 weeks. We all know how weird time works on this show but really, there has been a nice big gap since the prison.

[Macbeth]

I love the callback to Mika at the end.  Rick,looking at the black smoke,asked if the fire at Terminus was still raging, and Carol,remembering Mika's science lesson,said that it was.

 

Carol was supposed to have been killed off during S3.  The creators were going to kill her off on the same episode that Lori dies.  T-Dog ended up dying instead.  Andrew Lincoln (Rick) and Norman (Reedus) argued to spare Carol and so Melissa McBride's job was saved.  Given that Lori died in that episode there was no need to kill either T-Dog or Carol(IMO).

 

And what a payoff the series has had with her character.  Carol had such an amazing story arc - She is badass but I didn't think she would be the one to rescue Camp Dinner-Bell (such an appropriate name for our group).  When I heard the explosion I thought it would be Michonne or Abe and his group that created the diversion.

 

I am so thrilled it was her.

 

 

[NurseGiGi]

I hope they don't show us anymore of the Termites past.  They gave us a couple of flashbacks to show us that they were good people at one time and it showed us how the aftermath of the ZA can turn good people bad.  That's all I need to know and I'm glad they didn't drag it out like Scott Gimple said they had originally planned to do.

 

I'm liking how this season is starting and hope they can keep up the quality throughout the rest but I'm skeptical based on how uneven the previous seasons have been.  I got bored in season 2, liked parts of season 3 (well, most anything that didn't involve Andrea and the Governor), and liked parts of season 4.  I read somewhere that Scott Gimple pretty much admitted that the Governor story in season 4 was a "do over" since he should have died in season 3.  He didn't exactly say it outright like that but that was the gist of it.  I had pretty much decided season 4 would be my last until that last episode when Rick said they were screwing with the wrong people.  I was almost out but he dragged me back in and this episode was everything and more I had hoped for.

 

Anyway, the only reason I want to see another Termite is for Gareth to show up with Michonne's katana so they can immediately kill him and take it back.

[madam magpie]

I don't think it has only been a matter of days since the prison fell, more like several weeks.

Not since the prison fell, no. That's been a few weeks. But since the last part of season four. That was months ago for me, so I had trouble reminding myself that Carol and Tyreese were hearing gunfire from Rick et all arriving in Termius. I can't swear to it, but that all took place in less than 24 hours, right? From when Rick et al get captured to when Carol breaks them out.

[Bruinsfan]

As much as I love Carole, i felt her Terminator-John McClane thing was a bit much.  It felt like fan -pandering, TBH.  i would have preferred for everyone, including Carole, to had a hand in getting them all free.  This crew and tough and hard, they should all have gotten a piece of the glory, imo.

To be fair, once Carol caused the explosion and picked off the first armed Terminus guard, Rick & Co. contributed a lot to their own rescue. Including that surprise attack from behind that took out several people with automatic weapons, something Carol would have needed to be very lucky to manage. Carol was clearly the MVP, but I don't think she could have just waltzed in singlehanded and rescued everyone if the others didn't act to take advantage of the opportunity she gave them.

[Mattipoo]

This was such a great episode! Loved badass Carol especially when she shot crazy Mary in the foot then left her to be eaten by walkers. baby Judith was adorable, loved her facial expressions, she is such a good actress. The Carol and Daryl reunion made me tear up, it was so cute and romantic. Glad the termites are gone, hopefully for good.

[lawless]

I've always felt he was just repeating what he saw on the signs - that there was a safe place where everyone could get sanctuary. For all he knew, they hadn't seen any signs yet, and since they had kids, he wanted to make sure they knew about it.

I thought this too -- and I remembered it last night and got all the more furious at the Termites.  Because the Termites all knew, they had to know, that they were deliberately luring hopeful, desperate people into their horrific trap and it's simply an unspeakable obscenity.  And their pitch had to be especially alluring to people with kids who would be especially in need of a safe haven.  The teddy bears and toys were almost too much to take.  Frankly, I'm with Rick -- the Termites all need to die!  I appreciate that they were traumatized, but there is no possible understandable explanation for what they did, and there's no coming back from it.  Once you murder people -- completely innocent and vulnerable people like children no less -- and fucking butcher and eat them, you've crossed a line and there's no coming back.  And the scale of the murder -- that room was full of stuff!  Fucking Martin was talking about wanting the "kid's" hat once they "bleed him out" -- it's freakin' inhuman!  They were going to kill eight more people just that day, and blithely discussed putting on their "public face" in case more unsuspecting refugees showed up.  Jeebus!  Die you motherf(%$#@s, die!

 

As for drawing parallels to Rick and the gang -- Rick and the gang have never done anything like this, nor do I think they are remotely close to it, nor do I think most people would ever be, even in the ZA.  It's not a slippery slope, because what the Termites did was off the charts evil and monstrous.  Even Merle and the Governor would have been like, damn, that's disgusting!

 

I was glad that Glen wanted to open the train car and free the captives, because I think he assumed they were probably innocent people like his group, who would surely die if they were not freed.  I have no idea why that freak who was apparently one of the original attackers was in the train car, I would have thought he'd have been killed long ago, but whatever.  Anyway, given what they knew of the place, I think Glen's assumption that any people in the car would be decent person who needed help was reasonable, and the right call.  On other hand, regarding Rick's desire to kill the Termites and Glen's opposition to the same, while I understand the urge to simply flee, I do agree with Rick that any surviving Termites should have been killed, for the same reason Carol killed Lizzie -- they can't be around other people and are a mortal threat to anyone they encounter.  Plus, killing them is justice for the scale of gratuitous mass murder they committed.  You really just don't get to do that to your fellow human beings and get to run away.  Rick is a lawman, or was, and I understand the compulsion he felt.  Die Gareth, die! 

 

And how much did I love Carol last night?  More than I can possibly say.  And I am someone who has always had problems with her, and has at times despised her.  I am still not sure if I like her now, she's very cold.  But I sure do respect her.  I find her character fascinating -- she has overcorrected for her past timidity and helplessness, as someone above noted.  But she's been surprisingly, consistently smart, resourceful, tenacious, and brave.  After last night, I have to forgive her even if I think she acted too fast in killing Karen and David.  She risked everything for her friends and in a spectacular fashion, and saved them all.  Including baby Judith.  What can I say, I don't always agree with her decisions, but I have to respect her.  Carol, I salute you!

[Too Late Kev]

Not since the prison fell, no. That's been a few weeks. But since the last part of season four. That was months ago for me, so I had trouble reminding myself that Carol and Tyreese were hearing gunfire from Rick et all arriving in Termius. I can't swear to it, but that all took place in less than 24 hours, right? From when Rick et al get captured to when Carol breaks them out.

Carol saw Rick and the others being forced to go into the train car, and she knew Rick and some of the men had been taken somewhere, because she asked crazy Mary about it. So it seems that Rick's group didn't have that much time in the train car to prepare their weapons before the gas was thrown in, and then the Termites wasted no time in getting the four men to the trough.

 

And speaking of the gas, no one tried to grab it and throw it back out? You might get a burned hand for your trouble, and maybe it wouldn't work, but if Abraham (I think it was him) had time to yell, "Get back!" there might have been time to throw that thing out.

 

I agree that Rick and the others at the trough should at least have tried to get up and throw their bodies at the butchers once the first guy was slaughtered. Their ankles and wrists were zip-tied, I think, but couldn't a person get to a standing position? There were only two butchers and 7 guys on death row. Even if you had a very small chance of overpowering the butchers, wouldn't it be better to try and to go out fighting than to wait for the clunk on your head?

 

I thought it was an awesome episode -- very exciting. And while I think Rick's idea that they should kill all the Termites made sense, once he saw Judith was alive...he didn't want to risk losing her again and probably losing some of the group members. As soon as he saw her, he went into "keep the group big, strong, and safe" mode. So, run, and try to find safe ground.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Too Late Kev

[Anela]

As a Hannibal fan, I kept watching the Termites handle the bodies and body parts of their butchered victims and nitpicking "Oh, no, no, no!  Don't do it that way!  Hannibal would NEVER do that to food!"

As for why they became cannibals, I think that they started by just killing anyone who arrived and didn't meet their approval.  After a while the bodies started to stack up and they figured out humans are edible so, hey, easy food source. 

In the comics I think it was explained that they trapped and ate humans because they were lousy at hunting animals.

 

 

I was surprised by how squeamish I felt last night, since I've watched Hannibal, and they have been beyond gross with that they've shown. I still cringe at several things if they come to mind.

 

As much as I like Glenn - ever since I first saw him onscreen and yelling, "Not dead!!" at Rick, I think it would have been more shocking if they had got as far as killing him. The timing was too perfect (although I really didn't want that bat to connect with his head).

[CarpeDiem54]

Holy damn cow! What a great episode! Having to wait a day to watch it may kill me. Cuz, of course, I have to watch it twice and then come here to read what all you great people have to say.

I know where Michonne's katana is. It's up Mullet Man's ass. No other explanation for the way he runs. I bet he was the janitor at that lab where he claims to have worked.

[RedheadZombie]

Maybe Gareth will have it when he comes back. Cause I think he will.

 

Of course I hate the character of Gareth, but I really like the actor.  I think he was able to achieve what the governor couldn't quite do, and that's portray a charismatic cult leader, who is also truly sinister.  He scares me.

 

I think if this was really true, she wouldn't have caught up with the group at the end.  She could have very easily walked away and they never would have known who set off the events that made their escape possible or had any idea she was there at all.  She very obviously feels very deeply for them.

 

Carol and Rick are actually very similar, I think.  They've both overcorrected from former weaknesses and gone a little off the deep end from where they had to fight their way back to a newer, hardened version of their former selves that they need to be to survive this world.  If Rick can find some kind of peace within himself about what he has to be now, there's nothing to suggest she can't as well.

 

I too agree with the Rick and Carol comparison.  I think Rick has just managed to hold on to his sanity because of his kids.  Carol thinks Sophia died because Carol was too fearful and weak, and Sophia was coddled instead of being hardened.  So Carol changes herself, goes about her life in a 180 degree attitude change.  She trains the children in self-defense and weaponry.  Yet even the new Rambo Carol was not able to save Mika and Lizzie.  I think she was reeling after that happened.  I feared at the end of last season, that Carol would kill herself once she no longer had Judith's safety in her hands.  I have hope in the way that Rick and Daryl greeted Carol.  Also, regarding the banishment, I don't think Rick did it in spite of how close they were, but because of how close they were.  Remember, after Lori died, Rick allowed no one to comfort him.  But when he realizes Carol's alive, he walks right into her arms for comfort.  They had a bond.  And when Rick discovered what Carol did, it probably made him doubt everything.  Here was a person at the very top of Rick's trust list, yet she acts in a way he found untenable.

 

LOL! I saw her expression as... "Where the hell have you been?! Stuff is constantly blowing up around me... that crazy little blond girl tried to kill me, TWICE!!... Then some gum-chomping sociopath sent Uncle T outside to fight all those zombies by himself and threatening to snap my neck.  I need a nap, oh and some milk if you have it!"

 

"Plus a fresh diaper, and a change of clothing.  Damn, with all that facial hair, all these dudes look alike."

 

I don't think in the ZA  world you can afford to hold grudges. For the most part, they all have reasons they could hate each other and let it fester. At the end of the day, they can trust each other and would obviously kill and die for one another and that's what counts. No other group has shown this type of loyalty. For God's sake, Garreth brother Alex was the lunch special and all that hipster doofus was worried about was the shell count!!

 

And how weird is it that he seemed prepared to eat his own brother?  In the movie Alive (based on a true story), a plane crashed and the survivors were not found, forcing them into cannibalism.  They were disgusted, and not all of them could bring themselves to do it, but in a macabre scene, they give each other permission to eat them, if necessary.  Their main rule was - no eating a family member.  I don't think Terminus functioned this way.

 

The makeup and special effects on this show and this episode in particular are just incredible. The zombies are really looking even more gnarly (although seriously, clothing would rot away, there should be more naked zeds than clothed zeds and that could be done on tv, all the dangly bits would have just fallen off rendering the z's essentially genderless).

 

For me, this was the first episode that I found fault with the walker scenes - not that I'm complaining.  I wouldn't mind if the gore level was turned down a few notches.  Having said that, there were two scenes that were not affective to me.  The first was the man whose face is being eaten - he didn't scream/thrash/gurgle, etc.  Second, the woman being eaten alive by three walkers was barely thrashing, and making a scream I would compare to accidentally spilling Kool-Aid on the carpet.  Again, I'm not complaining.  The torture victims on Criminal Minds have become so realistic that I find myself muting the volume.  It's blood curdling.

 

One thing I noticed when I rewatched, during the part where they were dragging Rick into the butcher room, you get a quick look (I had to pause the DVR) of three bins labeled 'Burn', 'Feed', & 'Wash'. So I think they have a whole system to take care of all the 'meat', including burning the excess. 

 

I did notice that.  I couldn't figure out what the difference would be between feed and wash.  Wouldn't they wash all the meat they cannibalize?  All I could think of, was that the "feed" meat was used to lure walkers, so there was no need to clean it.  Also, I realize preparing to kill eight men made the scene more tense as they got closer to Glenn, but I don't really believe they would be able to go through so many bodies of meat.  I hate that I even bothered to think that through.

[CarpeDiem54]

When Rick was holding Judith her look said, "Gee, Dad's got bad BO."

[The Mighty Peanut]

You're not suppose to talk about it.

He clearly blabbed and it started the apocalypse. Thanks a lot, Tyreese.

[ikmccall]

I think they will find Gareth with the katana, take it from him by force and kill him with it.

[Armchair Critic]

I like the bond that Daryl and Carol have, but I don't want them to be romantic.  I am really glad that he didn't go there with Beth either (I don't miss her and wish she would stay away permanently).

 

If I had to pair people up I would put Daryl with Michonne and maybe down the road Carl with Beth (I am assuming they will find her).

Edited October 14, 2014 by Armchair Critic

[Caelicola]

I've gotta say, they were pretty dumb cannibals. I understand it for plot reasons, but which self-respecting cannibal sees meaty, bulky Abraham and Eugene and instead decides that stick-thin Rick looks more appetizing? Seriously, when Andy Lincoln turns sideways, he practically disappears, he's probably the member of the cast with the least meat on the bones. Eating him would have been frustrating as hell, like sucking on a particularly tiny little bird.

 

This was probably my favourite episode ever, even surpassing The Grove.

I wasn't really in Carol's camp last season, in the sense that I didn't agree at all with her decision regarding Karen and David, and to this day I still think Rick did the only thing he could do in banishing her, but I kinda also think she didn't need to be redeemed?

I don't know, I think her reasoning was redemptive enough, she clearly wasn't a psycopath going around and killing for sport. And obviously in real life that wouldn't cut it at all, but in a show about the apocalypse I tend to be more lenient. So I didn't see her rescue mission as redemption, but simply as the natural progression of her character; this meek, timid woman who had been robbed of all her confidence for so long that she didn't even have the strenght to go look for Sophia is now a determined, brave woman, who doesn't hesitate to attack a whole compound to save her new family. And I really love the fact that she got there, to the point of being strong, self-assured and centered, by herself; it wasn't "the love of a good man" to give her confidence. Sure, she made mistakes along the way -all characters did. I really like the definiton of both Carol and Rick as overcorrecting, and I think they both have found the right balance now. Certainly, in regular life they would be scary as hell and completely insane, but in the ZA, all things considered, they're pretty even keeled.

 

There's a little bit that I LOVED, so much that I rewound it three times before finally being able to go on: it's when the walkers are swarming Terminus, Rick and the others are in the process of freeing themselves, and we go for a couple of minutes to the container with everyone else. Michonne is looking out of the container, through a crack, and a decomposing walker hand suddenly comes into view. It looks like a typical jump-scare, except the camera moves almost immediately to Michonne's face, and she's leaning forward and smiling a little, and I swear I never saw anything more predatorial than her face right then. It's awesome, it's like she knows shit is going down, and she can't wait to join the frame, and she's gonna eat that walker for breakfast, and it's such a neat little inversion, because she's actually trapped in a container surrounded by people, living and dead, who want to eat her, and yet she looks like the top of the food chain.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Caelicola

[MrHufflepuff]

It amuses me that the cannibals apparently have reports and paperwork.  Gareth was walking around with his notebook like some asshole mid-level micro-manager.

[ikmccall]

It amuses me that the cannibals apparently have reports and paperwork.  Gareth was walking around with his notebook like some asshole mid-level micro-manager.

 

Which would truly be a living hell.

[GodsBeloved]

I sometimes think this entire show is all about the "slippery slope", examining what happens to people when they're forced to do things they could never before imagine just to survive, and what price do they pay for that in long-term humanity/ morality.  It's one thing at a time, one lost luxury, one gruesome act, until all of a sudden you're shooting a pre-teen in the back of the head.

I agree. I do wonder if the show will have the guts to show one of the "good" guys, one of the guys we have been with since the beginning, slipping so far down that slope and turning "bad".