S03.E01: The Calm

[FurryFury]

Well, I'm glad I stopped watching when I did (I didn't see the episode). Still didn't expect them to get rid of Sara so quickly. At least now I can completely stop following the show, there is nothing left for me here. Two favorite characters dead in a row, another one fucked up and gone from the cast. 

Goodbye, Arrow. You had a chance to be amazing, and you blew it all.

At least my favorite anime of the last few years is coming back in a few hours for season 2, so I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

[Big Bad Wolf]

Well, that sucked.

[foreverevolving]

@foreverevolving Edited, I apologise :P

no harm done ;-).

i'm a bitch on a mission. i had hoped my mission on Arrow would be to spread Olicity love but apparently it's not. not sure how i feel about it other than: i have truly never hated a character as much as i do her, and i want her off my screen so she would stop poisoning and slowly killing my favorite show.

Edited October 9, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Velocity23]

Never say Dinah Laurel Lance always trying to save the world to Laurel. Becuase you will just end up dead. Asshats

[looptab]

I don't really know what to say except DAMN.

I was getting a good feeling out of the episode. Even if at the beginning the new closeness between Oliver and Felicity felt weird to me, because we jumped from a kind of bond to a whole other level without really seeing it, as the episode kept going I found myself enjoying all their moments and Team Arrow dynamic, (the look Dig and Roy exchange while O/F flirted was priceless), I liked the action and Ray Palmer, I even tolerated Laurel.

I was both heartbroken and happy for the scene at the hospital, because that tension is going to keep growing and being compelling, and then was quietly waiting for this mistery to pop up, fully expecting a Ray Palmer-being-sketchy scene,  when...DAMN.

Now we get to see Laurel taking her sister's last words to her, "always saving the world", as her motivation. As many of you have said, subtle, very subtle.

I can't even remember all the things  I wanted to comment on, I wanted to quote most of you lol but for the moment about this:

But I wish that Oliver would be more consistent.  As someone pointed out, he risked her life (possibly without her consent) to get to Slade.  It makes no sense that he'd be willing to walk away so easily from happiness after the bomb.  Not consistent at all.  For all that Felicity said to him, I wish she'd pointed out what happened in the final battle with Slade.

The difference, IMO, is that at the time he was focused on the mission and didn't really acknowledged his feelings for her and was very conscious of what he was doing; now the situation is reversed, and he lost his focus, so I can understand where he comes from. 

[foreverevolving]

You know something. in all the Olicity hotness and heartbreak, baby digglet, Sara's death to prop Fakanary.

I totally forgot to mention how cool the reverse Superman thing was. especially the fold onto itself crossbow.

 

Because it's Prop not Prompt. I can't believe i want through the entire evening with that huge mistake and i didn't even realize it (well i did sub-concisely I just knew there was something off).

Edited October 9, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Big Bad Wolf]

The finances will never make sense.  Vigilantism is expensive work.  No way could a job at an electronics store support it.  

 

Everything this show does with regard to business and finance, PARTICULARLY the Queen family's finances/Queen Consolidated, is stupid, ridiculous, lazy and ill thought through. I'm assuming they are so purposely lazy in this area because they think it doesn't matter in a comic book show, but it does matter because the stupidity of how they write it is distracting and pulls the viewer out of the show. The way they write this area does the show a disservice, and is the worst part about the writing of the show. Apart from the Laurel/KC propping, obviously.

[Ceylon5]

Ah, shoot.  Poor Sara - she had such a short sucky life!  Still, she's been practising dying so much, she was bound to get it right eventually.  I wish that her parents hadn't found out she was alive only to immediately lose her again, though.  I think it might have been better if they'd never known she survived the boat accident.

 

It took a major plot contrivance to make Oliver's supposed "loss of focus" end up enabling the bad guys to blow up his date.  Felicity was at work, but she managed to go home (I assume), get changed, take 3 Benzos and still get to the restaurant before Oliver.  But somehow he didn't have time to go back to the Lair and change out of his Arrow gear like he's done every single other time?  Stupid.  And even if he got delayed somehow that we didn't see, it's not like Felicity didn't know where he was or what he was doing and how long it might take - they could have just arranged the date for 20 minutes later.  I hate it when timelines are off.  (Like when Oliver said his girlfriend before that shot his girlfriend before that, when he should have said that his girlfriend before that was shot by his girlfriend before that - get the order right Oliver!  At least he left Laurel out of the girlfriend line-up entirely...)  Also where did his gym bag suddenly come from?  He couldn't have pre-stashed it at the restaurant because he apparently only decided to take her there in the middle of the mission right before the date (during which he was so pressed for time that he couldn't even go home to change).  Maybe it magically folds down to nothing along with his bow.  I did like the magical folding bow, though.

 

Felicity's line about Oliver being shirtless all the time was the highlight of the episode for me.

 

Ray was very smarmy, but I did like that he went and figured out how to hack into QC on his own (with a bit of unintentional assistance from Felicity) and also how laid-back he was about her hacking all his devices in revenge.  I like people who don't take themselves too seriously.

[ostentatious]

I actually totally get Oliver's positioning at the end of the ep, even emotionally, working his Flash scene into the timeline.

I like the fact that Oliver isn't saying never. I need Oliver to remain someone who unlike Bruce Wayne is not actually addicted to feeling his own manpain. If he was to say never, I would know that on some level, like Bruce, his mapain satisfies him in a way no woman ever will. I do not get the sense with Oliver that he wants to be unhappy. He doesn't need misery to sustain him. Unlike Bruce, he is not the night.

From Oliver's perspective, he just asked Felicity for time. He mentioned timing to Diggle, he tells Felicity that getting QC back *now* is selfish, and they couldn't hit us any harder with the Felicity/QC parallels. I don't think he has logically thought through the implications, but I think it is emotionally consistent for Oliver to be able to put that aside briefly, because he doesn't think the Felicity situation is an urgent one. She has shown no inclination to pursue other relationships. He has ZERO intentions of pursuing other relationships. And I do not think he thinks he is going to be celibate for the rest of his life, so he has every intention of being with her someday. And that is...strangely hopeful?

He sees her in his future, he just doesn't know when the future can be. But she is in it. That isn't going to leave him wailing and gnashing his teeth. I don't think Felicity seemed devastated. Sad and quite frustrated with him, but she didn't walk away feeling like they were over, and he doesn't feel that way either. They seem like a couple with a future.

So weirdly enough, when he gets up to that rooftop with Barry, I think he feels *good*. I mean...he just kissed the woman he loves, and told her how he feels about her. His best friend has a beautiful daughter. There is so much life going on around him, and now a good guy that he thought was basically dead turns out to be alive. This isn't a miserable moment for him. There is a lot to feel good about, and I do not think it makes his feelings for Felicity shallow for his most recent known interaction to show him being not miserable.

Other thoughts...Stormare whistling "Hall of the Mountain King" is a reference to the film "M":

"In the Hall of the Mountain King" plays a major plot point in Fritz Lang's early sound film M. Peter Lorre's character of child killer Hans Beckert whistles the tune whenever he is overcome with the urge to commit murder. However, Lorre himself could not whistle – it is actually Lang who is heard. The film was one of the first to use a leitmotif, associating "In the Hall of the Mountain King" with the Lorre character. Later in the film, the mere sound of the song lets the audience know that he is nearby, off-screen. This association of a musical theme with a particular character or situation, a technique borrowed from opera, is now a film staple.

I find it amusing, since they are lampshading the fact that Oliver and Felicity's visual leitmotif is a *light* motif. Edited October 9, 2014 by thecatbastet

[foreverevolving]

So this is how bad the episode messed me up: i can't fall asleep. i want to, but i just can't seem to be able to. which is all kinds of: ugh!

 

on another note.  thanks for the whistle info! i had no idea about it. And now I wonder if they are gonna be using the whistle in the future as a signal.

Did Oliver kill Vertigo? because if he did or didn't, either way, they may- in the future- use the whistle or the actual tune he was whistling as a way to announce he is coming or involved. with that being said Isn't Merlyn fake name in the comics is "King"? maybe it has connected.

 

BTW, after watching the extended promo for the second episode i am 100% certain now who the killer is. whether i'm right or not remains to be seen.

[arjumand]

Everything I wanted to say has been said, if by everything I mean all the FUCK YOU WRITERS.

 

But I want to digress a bit to talk about the dinner date, and why I didn't find it as charming as the writers clearly wanted me to. Ok, so the "shirtless, all the time" thing was adorable. But the message behind it really wasn't. See, Felicity is tense because she feels she knows so much about Oliver, that there's nothing left to talk about during first, second, third and even fourth dates. Well, Oliver, you could solve this problem by asking Felicity a bit about herself, because I don't think he knows much about her, save the obvious stuff which came out last two seasons, and always in reaction to his problems, and his needs. Or have I missed something?

 

But no, Oliver saves the day by revealing that there's so much more to the 5 years he was presumed dead! Phew! Good thing, or we might have had to talk about something besides Oliver's bottomless manpain.

 

I can't deny that this bothered me, even more than the rocket-launcher ending the evening prematurely - that was just the writers ex-machina, stepping in to make sure we knew that our Olicity dreams coming true was just another phase in the endless game of bait-and-switch they had going on this episode. I had some hope at the beginning, that this could have been, miracle of miracles, an actual working relationship: He's the Arrow! She's Awesome IT Woman! They're in love! Together, they fight crime! But the rocket launcher fucked all that up - when he picked her up off the floor, I was actually afraid they'd make her lose her memory, in some bullshit "inspired by Superman 2" move.

 

And finally, though I've been trying to avoid it: throwing Sara's dead body at Laurel's feet, like trash. With the heavy-handed addition of the mask falling at her feet, too. I am so angry right now. Not necessarily because of Sara, though I did like her. But because of this kind of assholish determination to make Laurel FIT - we've decided she's going to be THIS, and she will be, no matter how unfitting she is to the role. Two seasons in, and her acting has not become better, her popularity has actually decreased, and they still insist on shoehorning her in. I feel like writing some fanfic where the producers/writers are under pressure from an Amanda Waller type of blackmail. Because I don't get it.

[apinknightmare]

Everything I wanted to say has been said, if by everything I mean all the FUCK YOU WRITERS.

 

But I want to digress a bit to talk about the dinner date, and why I didn't find it as charming as the writers clearly wanted me to. Ok, so the "shirtless, all the time" thing was adorable. But the message behind it really wasn't. See, Felicity is tense because she feels she knows so much about Oliver, that there's nothing left to talk about during first, second, third and even fourth dates. Well, Oliver, you could solve this problem by asking Felicity a bit about herself, because I don't think he knows much about her, save the obvious stuff which came out last two seasons, and always in reaction to his problems, and his needs. Or have I missed something?

 

But no, Oliver saves the day by revealing that there's so much more to the 5 years he was presumed dead! Phew! Good thing, or we might have had to talk about something besides Oliver's bottomless manpain.

 

 

Oliver undoubtedly knows a lot more about Felicity than we do, considering they spend hours of their day together and have tons of conversations that we don't see. I agree with you that it would've been nice for Oliver to talk about her for a change (just so that we could learn something new about her), but that scene was meant to be a parallel to what (I think) was his last actual proper date - with McKenna. She asked him about the island, and he was unwilling to open up to her then. I think that scene was meant to show that Oliver was willing to be emotionally vulnerable to Felicity, and wanted to share those painful experiences with her when he hadn't previously shared them with anyone else.

Edited October 9, 2014 by apinknightmare

[ostentatious]

Also, I am more convinced than ever that when Oliver met her in 103, there was more going on than met the eye. Why was it urgent that Oliver tell her about his past right that second? Is he going to sit there and tell her the entire story of years and years? No. I think there is something specific he needs to tell her, because it concerns her, and he has to get it out before he can start anything with her. He has to put them in the position of total knowledge and trust that she thinks they are already in. And that is why he has to bring up his initial approach to her and tell her how he saw people then, as targets, because he's getting ready to explain to her why he saw HER as one before he approached. Sure it could just be a romantic conversation, but that seems so so unlikely. He needs to talk to her for a reason. And I think Felicity's line "if we talk, it's over" applies to him. He does think that if they talk, it's over.

I strongly believe in the narrative necessity of lies standing between Oliver and his real love interest. TPTB had this built-in if it was Laurel, and Sara would've been deployed differently. Something has to be standing between Oliver and Felicity. And with all the light and trust and just fucking TELL THE TRUTH to the women you love, Oliver...with that theme reinforced constantly, there is just no way Olicity is as simple as we think.

Edited October 9, 2014 by thecatbastet

[Ceylon5]

I agree with you that it would've been nice for Oliver to talk about her for a change (just so that we could learn something new about her), but that scene was meant to be a parallel to what (I think) was his last actual proper date - with McKenna. She asked him about the island, and he was unwilling to open up to her then. I think that scene was meant to show that Oliver was willing to be emotionally vulnerable to Felicity, and wanted to share those painful experiences with her when he hadn't previously shared them with anyone else.

 

Yes, that's what I thought too.  Also, the basic message that I got from what Oliver was saying was "I trust you, Felicity, and I've trusted you from the moment we met."  Which is huge for a guy who felt he couldn't trust anybody (mostly with good reason).  It's almost a bigger deal than saying he loves her.

[Password]

BTW what was it that would make Felicity fall out of love with him?

[ostentatious]

BTW what was it that would make Felicity fall out of love with him?

Ah, see? IMO it was what he was ABOUT to tell her (see my earlier post) that would've done that.

He approached her like she was a target. The truth that would make her fall out of love with him is the REASON she was his target. And it ain't about no kinda background check and resume review that clued him in she was a genius. It is something that would cause her to distrust him and question their entire relationship.

She trusted him instantly, on a feeling, just like him. Even though she knew he was lying to her, she trusted him. That means everything to Oliver. It means way more than sex to him. I don't think he can let himself be with her with lies between them, but he also can't risk losing her. He started to take that risk and he was literally torpedoed.

[apinknightmare]

BTW what was it that would make Felicity fall out of love with him?

 

Maybe that he hadn't been truthful about where he'd been, or that there was a time when he saw targets instead of people? I don't want to think there's some big secret he has about her that he's scared to tell her that he never got to because of the explosion, because I think that would be a shitty turn of events.

 

I think it was MG who said that her reaction to what he tells her is interesting (to Oliver), so I guess maybe it was that he wasn't always on the island - since her reaction to that was pretty much...duh. Or maybe MG overplayed that whole worried about Felicity falling out of love with Oliver thing in his interview, but no....he would never do that!  ::bitter laughter::

[Izeinwinter]

Re: Felicity's finances: I figure that her actual income .. and what keeps the arrow in arrows.. is emptying the shady bank accounts of the criminals they bust. She has a job because being without visible means of support is suspicious, and it's difficult to buy health insurance with twice-stolen money in a cayman islands account. Because her clothes? She isn't buying those, Olivers bed, or a fern with what they pay her at that store.

 

Sara; Not really sunk in yet, mostly because I just cant imagine her staying dead. I mean, unless Caity has enough movies lined up that she couldn't stay it just seems so.. daft.. There are like.. 2 actresses I can think of with comparable physicality, and they are both much, much more expensive. 

[Password]

Do you feel satisfied with their raw conversation?

Also, are they only using the Verdant basement? In which case who owns Verdant?

[pootlus]

Because the fact that they would take a bright, strong, beautiful, complex young woman and reduce her into a plot device is just insulting. Making Sara collateral damage just so the writers can have this mystery and make Laurel relevant and give her meaning is just insulting.

 

This, SO MUCH. I was just about tolerating Laurel in this episode, although as she met her sister on the roof I said to myself "Problem is after the jacket handoff, every single one of KC's smiles looks like the crazy-ass one" and then BLAM three arrows in Sara so yes, her crazy-ass smile was in full force and the damn mask landed right near Laurel no no no no show that is not on and you know it.

 

The only possible redeeming thing about this is if Laurel becomes psycho Canary and Oliver has to terminate her.

 

 

SA does do a great job in this episode. You could just see him retreating back into Arrow as the episode went on. 

 

EBR had some fantastic moments. It wasn't flashy but I think the date scene was some of her best work. She was funny and warm and awkward. The line about seeing him shirtless? Perfect delivery. I was thinking it was odd we didn't see his reaction to it, but I think she was so good the director didn't want to leave her.

 

Have to say when I thought about it later that line was absolutely terrible and EBR made it into gold, maybe the writer knew what she'd do with it.

 

Amell was great this episode, Oliver was softer and happier than he's ever been, so much that I really can't hate him for backing off even though it's a douche move (and utterly predictable).

 

Ray was very smarmy, but I did like that he went and figured out how to hack into QC on his own (with a bit of unintentional assistance from Felicity) and also how laid-back he was about her hacking all his devices in revenge.  I like people who don't take themselves too seriously.

 

Have to say that Routh was a highlight of the episode for me.  The exchange with Felicity about the porcupine flatulence had me LMAO.

 

But fuck, that ending. It's like...they don't actually know or like their own show.

[apinknightmare]

Do you feel satisfied with their raw conversation?

Also, are they only using the Verdant basement? In which case who owns Verdant?

 

I feel satisfied with it, but I didn't really think it was all that raw? I was expecting declarations, of which there were none. I was expecting Oliver to flat-out tell her he loved her, which he only did by refusing to say that he didn't. I was expecting a conversation about what they mean to each other, but that didn't really happen either.

 

And I hope they explain Verdant. I'm guessing maybe Oliver still owns it but doesn't have the cash to get the club going again, since that would at least provide him with an income.

 

I also want to know how Oliver got backers for his QC bid considering, like Felicity said, he isn't the least bit qualified to run it. Queen family friends just aching to make a bad investment?

[Tallis]

Having now watched the opening Lair scene many many more times than is healthy, the bed lines seem to go like this: "You (I?) should buy me a bed." "You're sleeping on the floor." Which makes absolutely no sense but that's what is said. Perhaps there was more dialogue that got cut in the edit?

[insubordination]

I was really not impressed with the first episode of season 3. I feel a bit deflated as I'd hoped for more, but it's the same old annoying show. It's reaching Smallville levels of frustration for me, but there's no Lionel to keep me tuning in.

 

The bad and mediocre

 

I thought the pacing was weird. All zippy and sit-com-like in parts.

 

I FF'd the HK scenes (The Island: 2) . I don't like the 'Waller' actress and the show simply doesn't have time for that shit. It's like they just add stuff on when they feel like it. Is Russia next? Oliver never had access to a phone that whole time? Who's going to die? Who's he going to bang? How many ways can he be threatened and tortured? DON'T CARE!

 

I didn't like the hammy villain. I felt as though I'd seen it all before and FF'd bits of it. The Oliver/Arrow fight was good, though the clip had already been released online which reduced some of the impact.

 

 I didn't buy the Olicity at all. It seemed uh... inorganic? unnatural? badly written? rushed? I know we didn't see what happened since last season, so they basically skipped the good bits I would have wanted to see. Now, he loves her (using negative verbs), but she tells him to go jump. How is that fun to watch? It's like they were going for character development, but ended up right back where they started.  They should have left it alone for a while longer. Not impressed. Didn't squee. Would have been more effective to put her in a relationship with Ray and have Oliver witness it and start to pine from deep within.

 

I didn't like Felicity's dresses. I rarely do though.

 

I didn't buy the Diggle/Oliver argument. Was nice to see Dig happy with his Diglet though.

 

Roy was there. Not a huge fan, but he's OK. I love how Arrow thinks Roy's life is not worthy, but Diggle's is. It was odd the way Roy was missing last season. He's bland, but I can handle it. It's not necessary to add him to the team though. I'd rather he be written out.

 

I tried to be tolerant of Laurel and she was OK with her scenes (especially with Quentin). I don't like 'nice Laurel' because the character isn't naturally likeable to me. Bitchy snide Laurel works better.  I didn't FF her scenes like I usually do 'cos I wanted to give her (another) chance. I think it will be back to FF next week.

 

Sara's just a much better character and I feel the actress has a warmth and is more sympathetic. Laurel is like my manager at work and I don't want to hang out with my manager after hours. 

 

They can't kill off yet another strong female, can they? The injuries looked pretty definitive though and I've had enough of their fakeouts.  That said, if Sara doesn't make it through next week, then Laurel = Canary. I don't know if I can be bothered with the sloppy seconds honestly. It's really not something I want to spend my time on. I just don't have faith that this show can sell it to me.  I bet they think they're TommySurprise! clever doing this. They certainly like to give the middle finger to the viewers with one hand while writing bad scripts with the other.  It's a fuckin' waste if they kill off Sara and an unnecessary and unwelcome fakeout if they don't.  Doesn't anyone behind the scenes have some imagination? No, just keep spearing and shooting strong women with various objects until they are dead.

 

Barry? Not necessary. I'll watch the Flash if I want to. Stop trying to force it.

 

The good:

 

Quentin is not dead.

 

Amell hit the right notes on what was really poor and repetitive material. He tries hard the poor dear.

 

I was surprised I liked Brandon Routh/Ray. I thought he and EBR had the makings of some good chemistry. I may even want to watch this part of the storyline. It's so refreshing if he's not gonna be evil. The slimy human line was funny and I liked the acknowledgement that the city really sucks. I didn't mind the hacking/stalking stuff. I figured that's how geeks must flirt, by showing off their hacking prowess.

 

Maybe I should re-watch with a more positive attitude, but I just feel let down even though my hopes weren't even very high.

 

 

Blegh Canary, Fakanary and Blackmail Canary?

 

Hack Canary?

Edited October 9, 2014 by insubordination

[CabotCove]

Roy - loved the suit, looks great on Colton. Was afraid it looked too busy in released pics, but in the show no complains. Good to see  parkour back.

Diggle- Good to see such great happiness coming to him, beautiful little girl,  hopefully more screentime/focus too for him this season. 

Ray Palmer- The whole situation of taking Ollie's family company isnt cool with me but other than that the characters looks OK. I certainly enjoyed the interaction between EBR & BR (Ray/Felicity). 

Laurel -  Ok I good and funny line, I actually liked "You catch them, I cook them". She is still more KC than Dinah Laurel Lance/Black Canary. 

 

I think this is exactly right.  It does come off as sort of a trade-off for comic canon vs. non-comic canon viewers.  Oliver Queen romances someone other than Dinah/Laurel Lance to keep the TV fans happy and the path is cleared for Laurel Lance to become Black Canary to keep the comic book purists happy.

 

Anyone on Twitter? I'm not and I'm afraid to look but I want to know what people are saying.

 

Well Black Canary trended yesterday.

Diggle too. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by Conell

[apinknightmare]

Having now watched the opening Lair scene many many more times than is healthy, the bed lines seem to go like this: "You (I?) should buy me a bed." "You're sleeping on the floor." Which makes absolutely no sense but that's what is said. Perhaps there was more dialogue that got cut in the edit?

 

He's just talking too fast (an issue through a lot of this episode, it seems). Even my CC reads "I let you buy me a bed." "You were sleeping on the floor."

[dtissagirl]

The writers are so tone death with Laurel.

 

@bluebonnet, I just wanted to say that TONE DEATH instead of tone deaf wrt Laurel is basically the best Freudian slip of all time. I'm blatantly stealing that from you, and using it henceforth. :)

[tanita]

i always hated the "come back to life/not really dead" tropes, but for once in my life i would give anything for sara NOT to be really dead or to be revived. i mean to kill another great character so callously is just inexcusable imo, not to mention just to further laurel's "character progress". if they don't introduce the lazarus pit for this, i just hope that nyssa raises hell and destroys everyone responsible. but either way, a significant reason why i really started to love this show as opposed to just like it is now gone.

Edited October 9, 2014 by tanita

[apinknightmare]

Also, I am more convinced than ever that when Oliver met her in 103, there was more going on than met the eye. Why was it urgent that Oliver tell her about his past right that second? Is he going to sit there and tell her the entire story of years and years? No. I think there is something specific he needs to tell her, because it concerns her, and he has to get it out before he can start anything with her. He has to put them in the position of total knowledge and trust that she thinks they are already in. And that is why he has to bring up his initial approach to her and tell her how he saw people then, as targets, because he's getting ready to explain to her why he saw HER as one before he approached. Sure it could just be a romantic conversation, but that seems so so unlikely. He needs to talk to her for a reason. And I think Felicity's line "if we talk, it's over" applies to him. He does think that if they talk, it's over.

 

I think (at least I hope beyond all hope) that you're reading too much into it. I didn't get that there was any urgency in that scene for Oliver to tell her anything at all, just that he wanted to, so he could give her an idea of how much she means to him and has meant to him since the first time they met. Like, he was literally a killer, had no humanity in him, and she brought the humanity back and started making things real (that also makes sense with the theme of the season). And I think the only reason it was done at dinner was to parallel his date with McKenna and show the contrast where she asked him about the island and he absolutely did not want to talk about it.

 

And I think Felicity's "once we talk, it's over" was just a way to let him know that she wasn't going to let him string her along, and she wasn't going to wait for him. She knew what he was going to do, and she kept stalling, hoping he would come to his senses. She was ready to be with him, and she let him know that once they had that talk that he was so desperate to have, it was over. That was it, so he should really think about what he was doing.

[strikera0]

John Campea from the Arrow aftershow is still going to stop watching the show if this Laurel becomes Black Canary (unless it happens years from now)

 

I think he can just as well stop watching now. If Laurel doesn't suit up as the Canary by the end of the season, I'll be shocked.

[Password]

Have I mentioned how much I adored Felicity this episode? Cripes I loved her.

[writersblock51]

I was satisfied in some ways about Oliver and Felicity's talks - the one at dinner was probably supposed to be 'the talk' but there was a lot going on with most of their conversations. I wouldn't call any of them 'raw,' however.

 

What Oliver showed was the battle that still rages on within himself - who he is now.  We've been told, consistently & multiple times, that Identity is this year's theme.  So I think last night did a good job of establishing the dichotomy that Oliver is dealing with. And I think SA was excellent in all those scenes, too. I certainly hope 'the stiff actor' label that still gets slapped on him is in the garbage can now, finally. He did very well with all of it last night.

 

I don't think Oliver knew more than what we saw in 103 to the point that there's some dark secret carrying through to now. I think, with some retconning, we've been led to believe that he'd done some homework before he first approached her - probably knew where she'd gone to college, knew that she had a good & interesting reputation within the company and that she wasn't married (that Queen charm may seem more effective on young, single women - or so he was thinking?).

 

But there's no way that his reaction to meeting her was what he ultimately expected. The red pen is a small but significant detail that indicates he was paying close attention to her, even then.  He was caught, so to speak.  I wouldn't say it was love at first sight but there was, as he said last night, 'something about' her.  I'm glad her told her that.  And I think she saw it for the truth that it was, so when he started talking about the stuff that he's never shared with anyone (including Diggle), she was ready to hear it.  She's been pretty accurate for detecting his BS for 2 years now.  He wasn't BSing her on their date, and I think that meant a lot to her.

 

So much so that when he retreats into his well intended but idiotic ArrowLonerMode, she saw it happening, wanted to delay it as much as possible and knew what he was going to say before he said it.  It speaks volumes that he was 'this close' to telling her he loved her, again and without any chance of a ruse, but he just couldn't - yet.  And I think it takes a strong person to stick to her convictions to break away from that hold, that gaze and those words and leave him to think about what he's ready for.  I don't doubt that they both know what he wants, but that's not the point of that whole episode. 

 

I think that is what this season is actually about - syncing up what he wants with what he's ready for. 

 

It's been a few hours since I ranted about Sara. and I had hoped that some sleep, breakfast and a new day would help balance my thoughts on what happened with her.  But nothing has changed.  How Sara's death was written is most definitely off putting and insulting.  Absolutely.  And the show's heavy handed approach with symbolism made it even more distasteful to me because the mask was literally at Laurel's feet. 

 

I have no idea what the show is using as a gauge for Laurel as BC popularity.  I don't think it's Twitter. Or Tumblr. Or here.  Which really makes you wonder if the EPs even bothered to consider the effects of this.  I don't expect ratings to drop off significantly because of this but I do wonder if they will trend downward as Laurel's journey becomes more pronounced. 

I have read only 1 review so far and it listed Sara's death as positive in 2 ways - helped Olicity (I can't even deal with how that was connected - the article made my wince and scratch my head) and propels Laurel as BC. So at least 1 reviewer liked it.

 

I saw a lot of anger directed at #DCTV on Twitter, so I'm curious if DC will actually look at those comments.

Edited October 9, 2014 by writersblock51

[Sakura12]

They should have had the dumpster be open when Sara fell. That would've worked for their subtle symbolism too.

Okay. I'm done now.

[apinknightmare]

Have I mentioned how much I adored Felicity this episode? Cripes I loved her.

 

Yeah, she's really great - I love her so much.

[tv echo]

So much to say, so please bear with me...

 

The Good
- Team Arrow working together like a well-oiled mechanism to take down the bad guys, with help from Captain Lance, was just a thing of beauty.
- Oliver's awkwardly asking Felicity out on a date and then the beginning of the date itself - his recollection of their first meeting (the red pen -sigh), and his beginning to open up about his return to Starling City and his time away in Hong Kong - was so touching and promising.  Oliver showed real warmth and wasn't being his usual repressed self.
- Diggle's new baby girl is just so adorable.  Oliver's handmade arrowheads gift for Digglet was also adorable.
- That scene between Oliver and Felicity in the hospital was beautifully acted by both of them.  Oliver's line to Felicity - "don't ask me to say I don't love you" - right before he kissed her, was especially poignant and heartbreaking.  I could feel for both of them. 
- I actually liked the scenes between Felicity and Ray Palmer.  I especially liked Felicity's getting back at Ray by hacking into all of his electronic devices.  However, I don't see that much-hyped romantic chemistry between them.  I can see Ray going after Felicity, but I don't see her reciprocating... unless she plays along to help out Oliver.
- A small part of me likes that Felicity is still the only woman Oliver's ever loved (romantically) that he hasn't slept with... yet.  It makes her special.

 

The Bad
- Oliver's belief that he can't have a personal life because it would cause him to lose focus is just wrong.  He missed the tracer because he got complacent after five months of smooth sailing, not because of any personal relationship.  However, I think we'll find out that he did some pretty bad things when he was in Hong Kong, which causes him to feel guilt.  He likely planned to stay on the island forever to atone for his sins, but gave in and decided to go home.  He's eager to punish himself because he probably feels he doesn't deserve happiness.  That would explain why he seems so willing to deny himself any personal life.  Felicity isn't - and shouldn't be - willing to be dangled along and to base her hope for a future relationship with Oliver on 'maybes'.  The given reason for Oliver's breaking up with Felicity before they even get together just seems like a plot contrivance by the EPs.
- I found it hard to believe that Roy has gotten so good already, both in fighting and in shooting arrows.  It took Oliver 5 years, but it only took Roy 5 months?!  (I hope that's not a precursor to another character's quick journey to hero-hood.)
- I still have trouble seeing sincerity when Laurel is being nice.  (I think it's KC's acting.)  When Laurel engaged in light banter with Oliver ("you catch 'em, I cook 'em.  Oh, was I being too loud?"), it came across as forced.  When Laurel told Sara "love you", it came across as fake.  When Laurel was wailing over Sara's body, I didn't believe her grief.  Incidentally, I found Laurel's smiling "League of Assassins vacation days" quip to Sara just as off-putting as her being happy when Sara left to rejoin the League.
- The Barry Allen cameo.  After the phone call, Oliver takes the time to change into his Arrow costume before meeting Barry on the roof (see Flash premiere).  Why bother?  Barry knows Oliver is the Arrow.

 

The Ugly
- Sara dies.  I guess we saw that coming, but just not so soon.  Sara's timely return just in time to help Oliver fight the bad guys, and her heart-to-heart scene with Laurel ("Dinah Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" - gag!), right before she's killed and lands conveniently at Laurel's feet, just seems super contrived.  In any event,  I'll miss seeing the wonderful Caity Lotz as both Sara and the Canary (flashbacks don't count and are just rubbing salt in the wound).
- We're never going to be rid of Laurel.  Well, now we know why KC was grinning like a loon during the jacket hand-off scene at the end of last season.  She was probably already told by the EPs that Sara was going to die and that Laurel was going to take over as the BC.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Season 4 poster showed Laurel in full costume.  I also wouldn't be surprised if Laurel and Oliver got back together again in Season 5.  After all, two years is enough time for fans to forget about the sister-swapping, right?  (Yes, that's sarcasm.)
- I'm betting the EPs think the unhappy fans will forgive Sara's death once they see Laurel fighting in BC costume.

 

Questions

- Sara was shot with three arrows, just like Oliver killed the first Count.  Do you think someone is framing Oliver for Sara's death?
- Was the Arrowcave still the foundry underneath Verdant, or did they set up in Oliver's second lair?
- Hasn't Oliver gotten a job in the five months that passed, and how is he supporting himself?

- I wonder how much is left of Diggle's and Felicity's $1M severance gifts from last year?
- Is the new Count dead or just wounded?  If dead, what happened to Oliver's 'no kill' policy?
- Is Felicity intentionally working at the Buy More in order to have more time for her real Arrow work?  When Ray asked her if she was looking for a job more suited to her skills, she said something like "sadly, no" - which sounds like she's only open to flexible shift work or, if Oliver had gotten QC back, her old cover job as his EA there.
 

P.S.
- Regarding Oliver's revelation that Felicity was the first person he met after he returned to Starling City that didn't feel like a threat or target to him, some might take issue with this, saying that Moira, Walter, Thea, Tommy, Laurel or Diggle should be this person.  Here's my interpretation, by threat or target, he didn't just mean physical threat.  I think he meant that Felicity was the first person he could just be himself (his new self) with and not have to hide.  With his family and friends, they were a threat because they could discover his vigilante identity.  They also only knew him from before the island and would have expectations about him returning to that pre-island self.  He had to adopt his pre-island persona, even though that was not him any longer, and pretend (wear a mask) with them.  Diggle was originally assigned to him as a bodyguard and Oliver considered him an obstacle to avoid.  But Felicity did not know him from before, and would only know as much of him now as Oliver chose to reveal to her.  There was no history, no emotional baggage, no expectations.  They were meeting fresh and new, plus she was an innocent person.
- If ratings drop going forward, I think it'll be because of Sara's death and Laurel's journey toward becoming the BC.  (However, some fans will probably say it's because of too much Olicity.)
- I'm trying to be philosophical about what happens on Arrow going forward, and about the difference between what the EPs want to happen and what I want to happen.  If I ever stop enjoying the show, then I'll just stop watching.  I don't feel any obligation to continue watching just because some might say a "true fan" would support the show no matter what.  I figure it's a two-way street.

 

CORRECTION:  Oliver said "don't ask me to say I don't love you" after he kissed Felicity,

Edited October 10, 2014 by tv echo

[ohjoy]

Questions

- Sara was shot with three arrows, just like Oliver killed the first Count. Do you think someone is framing Oliver for Sara's death?

I think it's just writer/director speak for "dead, Dead, DEAD."

[shrewd.buddha]

They should have just killed Sarah off-screen. Bringing her back for five minutes just to kill her off was pathetic.

 

And the whole Oliver/Felicity mess of "I love you to much to be with you" felt like crappy teenage fanfic. ("Lookie -- we managed to satisfy the shippers and non-shippers!" ). 

 

However, I did like that we didn't have to endure any more scenes in Club Verdant where Oliver's teenage sister is forever stocking the liquor supply. 

[Primetimer]

As the third season starts, new plots are started and old plots are ignored. And Felicity wears an odd dress!

Read the story

[Kromm]

Well, that was going really well until they decided to fridge Sara.  If the show thinks this is going to make the audience like Laurel, they're sadly mistaken.

Given the shit DC has taken over the years over fridging characters, you'd think they'd be somewhat sensitive to it.  That said, I suppose they justify it because it's a female being sacrificed to advance the plot of another female character rather than a male one (so maybe not technically fridging).  Too bad that most of the fans loathe the actress who's being boosted by this and loved the one who was made the goat.

[poetgirl925]

That was a really good, fast paced episode up until the end when they settled for trite fridging to jump start yet another hero journey. Honestly, I was going into this season with a good attitude. I was going to try to find something to like about Laurel after the pill popping alcoholic mess of a character arc in S2. And what do I get? Another character I like killed off to prop up her reason for existing on this show. Sure, you can argue that Tommy dying propped Oliver's S2 journey, but it was literally the impetus for Laurel's guilt and substance abuse problems - and that was her whole deal in S2. She cried and whined and made it about her, and I have a terrible feeling we're about to endure more "tortured soul, poor me" Laurel because it wasn't enough that Sara died - she had to fall at Laurel's feet? What the hell was that? How do the writers NOT understand by now that "tortured soul" Laurel sucks? Why does every hero have to be a tortured soul anyway? That was never Black Canary's deal in the comics, and they had an opportunity to create a different path for Laurel after her crap arcs in S1 and S2.

I also hate the manner of fridging - just like they fridged Shado to create that stupid feud between Oliver and Slade, they fridged Sara to create a murder mystery. Seriously, after everything, she couldn't even get a hero's death?

Also, these EPs are on crack if they think Ray Palmer is some kind of Cary Grant. He hacked QC's servers to get a leg up on his bid for the company and stalked Felicity. What I got from that was giant tool, but that's just me. Sorry, but his stalking was hella creepy. And he deserved that audio file hack because what he did was highly unethical in the business world.

I'm going to need a day or two to deal with my frustration before I can look on the bright side :/

[writersblock51]

@poetgirl925, there were differences about the show's take on Black Canary that I liked that also differed from the various comic versions. I thought of this version as an alternate universe BC.  Fine. But there were enough familiar aspects that made me happy, too.

 

I just can't see how Laurel resembles ANYTHING we've seen in the Black Canary universe. Blond hair and black leather, that's it.

[Password]

Did anyone else think Ray was a bit of a dope? Seriously, I don't see him as male Felicity, I see him as...a dope.

 

But I LOVED Felicity putting him in his place.

[foreverevolving]

Also, I am more convinced than ever that when Oliver met her in 103, there was more going on than met the eye. Why was it urgent that Oliver tell her about his past right that second? Is he going to sit there and tell her the entire story of years and years? No. I think there is something specific he needs to tell her, because it concerns her, and he has to get it out before he can start anything with her. He has to put them in the position of total knowledge and trust that she thinks they are already in. And that is why he has to bring up his initial approach to her and tell her how he saw people then, as targets, because he's getting ready to explain to her why he saw HER as one before he approached. Sure it could just be a romantic conversation, but that seems so so unlikely. He needs to talk to her for a reason. And I think Felicity's line "if we talk, it's over" applies to him. He does think that if they talk, it's over.

I strongly believe in the narrative necessity of lies standing between Oliver and his real love interest. TPTB had this built-in if it was Laurel, and Sara would've been deployed differently. Something has to be standing between Oliver and Felicity. And with all the light and trust and just fucking TELL THE TRUTH to the women you love, Oliver...with that theme reinforced constantly, there is just no way Olicity is as simple as we think.

So..

mmm. interesting

taking this to the speculation thread. cause i have a theory.

Edited October 9, 2014 by foreverevolving

[poetgirl925]

@poetgirl925, there were differences about the show's take on Black Canary that I liked that also differed from the various comic versions. I thought of this version as an alternate universe BC.  Fine. But there were enough familiar aspects that made me happy, too.

 

I just can't see how Laurel resembles ANYTHING we've seen in the Black Canary universe. Blond hair and black leather, that's it.

I agree. Laurel was a bust for me by the second episode - my comments from 2 years ago are on record that I thought the character was miscast and not being written well. I tried to find things I liked about her as a character but I couldn't see her as the future Black Canary and that's still true. The thing is, Sara wasn't what I expected in Black Canary either, but she was interesting. We had the League angle and the mystery of her past. She fit the overall narrative. Meanwhile, Laurel never left Starling City and they have to keep killing people off to give her the kick in the pants she needs to be relevant on a superhero show. I just think it would have made for more interesting storytelling to find a way for Laurel to begin her journey (since they seem determined to go there) without doing the thing we all kept expecting. It's lazy IMO. Watch her wear that stupid jacket all over town now, too. I have a feeling this is going to cause a backlash against Laurel because I was prepared to give her a chance and I'm over it now that I suspect we've got half a season of her moping around or being angry heading our way. That is just not a side of Laurel I care to see again.

[KirkB]

Did anyone else think Ray was a bit of a dope? Seriously, I don't see him as male Felicity, I see him as...a dope.

 

   I'm not sure, but I kind of thought that was on purpose. I get the feeling Ray is one of those guys who downplays his intellect (not his ego, it's hard to hide that) in order to make people underestimate him.

[Morrigan2575]

Watch her wear that stupid jacket all over town now, too. 

 

 

heh

pictures from 303 the first episode that isn't directly dealing with Sara's death has Laurel wearing the jacket...so yeah you'd be right

[Lokiberry]

Oliver's epic buttload of manpain. Roy's magically developed sidekick skills. Sara's final dumpster dive. KC's barely contained glee at finally getting the chance to play FC (Fake Canary). Everything wrong with this series in 42 minutes of less.

 

Oddly, the only thing I enjoyed about this episode was Ray, a smarmy asshole who hacks his competition and renames cities for giggles. Considering Oliver just broke Felicity's heart because he's scared of himself, I will happily watch Raylicity snark at each other until Ollie's regularly scheduled May-pocalypse Epiphany.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Lokiberry

[Matt K]

Well it looks like I was right in dropping this show.  I stopped watching after Moira's death because I was pissed they fridged another awesome female character so after this episode I would have been even more upset, especially since I was a fan of Sara.  That said even if I wasn't killing off yet another strong female character would be the end anyhow.  And with that said I'm out.

[Kromm]

So are we even going to talk about the Shrinking Elephant in the Room?

 

You know what I mean!  That Ray Palmer is supposed to be a College Professor.  What did you THINK I meant?

[Lady Calypso]

The one thing I find hilarious is that no matter how hard Katie Cassidy tries with her scenes with Stephen Amell, you can tell he couldn't care less about her. In all the Laurel/Oliver scenes, he makes it seems like she's just an acquaintance. While KC tries her lovey dovey eyes at her, SA just blinks at her. It's hilarious. Stephen seems really over Laurel in general and I'm not too sure how he feels about Katie. He tried this whole Laurel/Oliver thing back in season 1, but now it's clear that he's given up on her in general and I think he'll be a secret protestor for this Laurel as BC BS. 

 

I really thought they'd wait longer than the premiere to kill Sara off, I really did. I really hoped that the writers actually were getting a clue on how popular Sara is, but either they don't care and they're just doing this to further their own agenda, or they're really not smart. Do they even realize that Sara's death isn't fully what the fans are upset about, but the fact that it's a clear path for Laurel to become Black Canary? And as long as it's not a path to Laurel/Oliver again, which I don't think it is (plus, I'm pretty sure SA will be extremely unhappy and we might get less media coverage from him), then I'll be less infuriated.

[poetgirl925]

heh

pictures from 303 the first episode that isn't directly dealing with Sara's death has Laurel wearing the jacket...so yeah you'd be right

Oh God, I haven't seen that. *headdesk*