S02.E01: Shadows

[Jeezaloo]

If they'd had Creel absorb his water or stew and drip out of the cell it at least would have made a little sense.

 

Yuppers. I kept thinking, "He's touching air. His cell has air holes in it. He's touching air and can turn into air and his cell has air holes in it. Hurp?"

 

The only problem with going liquid/gas is reassembling yourself, I guess maybe that might freak him out. What if his liquid body ran down two separate drains, or if part of gaseous-him was accidentally inhaled by somebody else?

[benteen]

I think they've found a good way to keep Ward on the show for the time being and it actually makes sense.  I agree that I don't want to see a redemption arc.  At best, he should be an uneasy ally they have to team up with once and a while.

[KirkB]

Going back to the comics, if Creel turns into gas or a liquid he runs the risk of being dispersed (I think the Hulk clapped him apart once). But the nature of his powers allows him to pull himself back together eventually. I don't think the cage he was in was glass, not regular glass anyway, since even a normal man could punch or kick his way out of a glass cage. By absorbing it he gave himself a stronger physical form to fight with.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Shallow note - Chloe isn't doing the open fish mouth thing anymore but rocks beaver teeth when she shoots a gun. Pew! Pew! Pew!

I can't remember if it was Chloe or someone else but I specifically remember an actress recently saying that when she began shooting scenes with firearms, she was actually making "bang bang!" gun noises and they had to tell her to stop.

[APSimpson]

Just jumping in for the first time here, forgive me for not following most of the thread thus far -- too many posts and too much to read but I'll get caught up. Just wanted to chime in on my thoughts. First of all, this is my favorite show on TV. Watched all of last season and loved it and was geeked for this first episode of season 2 which I've watched three times already.

 

I have to say that I really like Skye. Last season, the first few episodes I really couldn't stand her because of the sarcasm and the "Mary Sue" aspect to her character. Watching the show was causing too much aggravation so I actually stopped watching but then came back right around the episode "The Hub," which turned out to be one of my favorites from S1. In fact, it was in "The Hub" when I really started to like Skye and Chloe Bennet's passionate acting. So, I got over my Skye angst and even though she wasn't one of my favorites, I was starting to like her more and more. Watching this new episode last night, I have to say I think Skye has grown so much from last season. She is almost a calming influence. The brattiness is gone, but her strength of personality is still there and her beauty while being an annoyance earlier is really starting to shine through for me. I like her new hair style with the bangs, there's something humbling about it. Anyway, I kind of see Skye, even though she is young, as almost a big sister type of character, one with leadership and someone who has your back and looks out for you (even though she's in the early stages of being a SHIELD agent).

 

In regard to Fitz, I have many thoughts about this, about him and Simmons from last season, and now seeing his state of mind in the new episode. There's no nice way to tip-toe around any of this so I will just rip into it. It's obvious Fitz is in love with Simmons. He's obsessed with her and can you really blame him? Simmons is gorgeous and she's always been right beside him through school and even working together with SHIELD. When they were first introduced in the very first episode, I figured they would be frivolous background characters that didn't get any respect and were just there to serve a comical role and provide the tech and medical necessities. But I never imagined they would never be "Fitzsimmons" anymore. In a way, they were almost a comfort to me -- two people so similar and with so much in common and how they act like an old married couple and would always be there for one another even though they bickered and complained. Because of their innocence, they served as a buffer for my initial dislike of Skye. Then they decided to infuse some tension between the two, with all manner of fan perception that Fitz was being "friend-zoned," or that there was something brewing between her and Triplett. No need to go into all of that, and I don't disagree with some of those ideas, but it became clear to me over the course of events that Fitz was head-over-heels for Simmons and Simmons wasn't necessarily reciprocating that, which I thought was odd because of the motherly quality Simmons displayed toward Fitz. She made him that prosciutto sandwich (his favorite) and seemed to mother/dote over him ("you be careful now"). Feminists would scoff if I said she was leading him on whether she knew it or not, but that's how I took it. A woman doesn't make food for a man unless she really likes him, but I realize this is a TV show and not real life. Simmons, in my opinion, is partly responsible for how Fitz feels toward her. Fitzs is sensitive, vulnerable and a real victim in my opinion, but nobody cares about the non-hunky guy with feelings. Maybe Simmons just always wanted to be friends, but to me her behavior was behavior that creates closeness between two people, not just innocuous friendliness. When you cry in someone's arms, or run into their arms and hug them after a battle, it's understandable but it also creates closeness and feelings. As last season progressed, it seemed to me that Simmons became almost dismissive toward Fitz at times. Referring to him as "Watson" and even implying taking credit for the Icer gun I thought Fitz had come up with. She seemed to become a bit resentful of him, perhaps feeling that he is holding her back in a way. I hated all of this because I wanted them to remain a duo that would eventually come together as a couple. I don't know if the actress (Henstridge) just isn't into the idea (she was the first one who mentioned Fitz and Simmons being like brother/sister or friends) which in my opinion is emasculating to Fitz and the actor who plays him. Why couldn't Fitz be a romantic possibility? The two of them are supposed to be "geeks," and even though De Caestecker is a handsome guy, he does fit the geek mold moreso than the super-model looking Henstridge does. My solution to all of this would have been to hire a less "knock-you-over-the-head" pretty actress to play the "geek" girl; that way, there would be more equality between the two rather than Simmons wielding all the power. I really grew to dislike Simmons because of all of this, whether real or perceived (the creators of the show did a great job here creating this uncomfortable tension) and she's my least favorite character on the show at this point. Having said all of this, I don't think Fitz is without deserving some criticism. I think his character was comfortable with the path Simmons and him were on, and took for granted that they would always just end up solidifying their relationship into something substantial and loving in a romantic sense. Fitz' hesitancy to tell her how he felt until they were underwater probably wouldn't have made much of a difference but maybe it would have. At one time, perhaps Simmons did think the world of Fitz, wanted a relationship with him, but he took too much time to tell her his feelings, and when he did it was too late, she having seen that there were other men in the world -- men that liked her and she them and were available to her instead of just Fitz, having lived in almost a sheltered, academic world with him. Fitz is at times, too, rather uncourteous (perhaps that's too strong a word) and oblivious with Simmons, which isn't helping his cause, even though I don't see that it is anything bad or threatening but more of a cute, harmless thing because of how they interact, but others could see it differently. Ultimately Fitz is chivalrous because he was willing to die to save Simmons, the woman he loves, but apparently she doesn't love him back, not in the way he wants. Remember she avoided kissing him on the lips. I really think Fitz needs to try to get over her and move on, but as obsessed as he is, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Who knows what Simmons is up to being away. Maybe she's trying to find a cure, using blood samples (and the GH-325 drug) to repair Fitz, or maybe she just wants to get away, or maybe she is with HYDRA or AIM (doubtful but fun to speculate). I'm just tired of seeing Fitz being treated like chopped liver.

 

As for the new characters coming in I was a bit nonplussed with Lucy Lawless. I have no loyalty to her as I never watched Xena, but I didn't dislike the idea of the show and I always thought she looked great as the "warrior princess." I think she looks just fine now except for her hair style which makes her look a bit disheveled. But it's not her looks it's more her lack of charisma or presence that I was unimpressed with. She just seemed to be going through the motions. However, she could grow on me. With repeated viewings of this newest episode, I'm starting to like her more. Hope she'll be OK and they can get her a new cybernetic hand, but if they have killed her off, then I am willing to move on.

 

There are people out there that thought Idaho was all that but I didn't see it. I'd much rather have agent Blake or even Sitwell return in some capacity (even though he's HYDRA and appeared to have been killed). I'm just fantasizing here. However, I really liked Nick Blood or Lance Hunter (does this guy have the monopoly on cool names or what?). I liked his humor and always love hearing more british accents. I'm interested to see how he will mesh with the team. I like Mac, too, but we didn't get too much of him in this episode. I have to say, he really looks like a super hero to me with his build and features. Love Patton Oswalt in his role and I am also getting a kick out of Talbot. Adrian Pasdar plays him wonderfully with pomp and bluster. I'm hoping for a bromance to develop between Talbot and Coulson!

 

Speaking of Coulson, he's the glue and the reason I started watching. Now that he's director, I hope he's not going to just stand in that room and give orders. I'd still like to see him in the field or on the "away teams." Phil is "still the one" for me and my favorite character. May is a close second and I just adore her. I'd like to see her warm up to Fitz a little bit and see them develop a better way to relate.

 

As for Triplett, I hope we see a more human side to him and not being relegated to just the "I'm so sexy and hip" stereotypical stuff. I liked the budding friendship he and Fitz were seemingly having from the end of last season.

 

Ah, Ward. I loved Ward as the hero, the protector of the group. We all know now that it was all a ploy, but I still believe that he can be redeemed. I know some are opposed to that idea, but considering Ward's upbringing and horrible family situation growing up, I can forgive him. He can still do so much for the side of good, and if Romanoff (Black Widow) was once bad and from what I understand an assassin, heck, why can't Ward be brought back into the light? Whether he is being manipulative or sincere in his divulging of information to Skye I guess remains to be seen, but I believe in the guy.

 

The episode was fun. Absorbing man was a treat. Looking forward to next week!

[Minneapple]

I don't know if you spend any time on tumblr, but the mood over there is very different. There is a very loud minority (at least I hope they are in the minority) who are insistent that Ward is a sweet innocent angel, and the rest of the characters are horrible monsters for not welcoming him back with open arms.

That doesn't surprise me. Going back to Draco in Leather Pants, there was an entire portion of Harry Potter fandom who thought Draco was just a poor misunderstood woobie. In fact there is a HUGE difference between his fanon and canon characters, and I haven't really participated in SHIELD fandom, but I'd guess that's the case with Ward as well. It happened with Spike, with Damon Salvatore, with Chuck Bass. It's an oft-repeated tale, but when it really gets annoying is when writers desperate to please those fans mold the character to those fanon characteristics. THANK YOU JK ROWLING FOR NEVER DOING THAT TO DRACO MALFOY.

 

Anyway, I completely agree with all of you saying Ming-Na looks hotter each year. The cast was live-tweeting during the premiere, and her photos on Instagram show her looking even hotter than she is on the show! (If that's possible.)

[Wilowy]

I can't remember if it was Chloe or someone else but I specifically remember an actress recently saying that when she began shooting scenes with firearms, she was actually making "bang bang!" gun noises and they had to tell her to stop.

 

It was Chris Pratt in Guardians of the Galaxy:  “I blew a couple of takes because I was making the shooting sounds with my mouth while I was filming,” Pratt says laughing. “They said, ‘What are you doing with your mouth?’ And I was like, ‘pewpewpewpewpew,’” he says, sounding like an 11-year-old running around a backyard.

[calliope1975]

It was Chris Pratt in Guardians of the Galaxy:  “I blew a couple of takes because I was making the shooting sounds with my mouth while I was filming,” Pratt says laughing. “They said, ‘What are you doing with your mouth?’ And I was like, ‘pewpewpewpewpew,’” he says, sounding like an 11-year-old running around a backyard.

 

Sebastian Stan said the same thing about when he was Winter Soldier. They also had to tell him to stop and that they would add the sound effects in later. I find that when I throw my cat's toys, I add in "whoosh" noises. Must be ingrained. 

[thuganomics85]

 

Anyway, I completely agree with all of you saying Ming-Na looks hotter each year. The cast was live-tweeting during the premiere, and her photos on Instagram show her looking even hotter than she is on the show! (If that's possible.)

Ha, maybe for her, the make-up folks are actually used to tone her hotness down for the show.  TV screens can't take it! 

 

 

I think they've found a good way to keep Ward on the show for the time being and it actually makes sense.  I agree that I don't want to see a redemption arc.  At best, he should be an uneasy ally they have to team up with once and a while.

I agree.  Right now, I think it's fine, but I really hope they aren't going down an actual redemption route, because I would just find it almost impossible to buy.  I hope the TPTB don't feel pressure or anything, over any potential love for him, and claims he's just "misunderstood."  Which... well, doesn't surprise me, considering this the same franchise that has Loki, who is always having his actions defended ("Thor was a meanie!  Odin didn't hug him enough!  Humans... er, deserve to have him as our overlord?  We totally deserved to have aliens sicked on us!")  Nothing new here.

Edited September 25, 2014 by thuganomics85

[FurryFury]

Thinking back on Ward's Hannibal Lector scene with Skye, I don't have mixed emotions about him at all. He said the suicide attempts happened during a rough patch. So, what, he soldiered through that moral reflection stage, and now he's more resolutely evil than ever? I can't really feel sorry for him if I don't know whether or not he shook off the guilt and now uses his injuries as a tool of manipulation. Besides, if he actually gave a damn, he'd be willing to help out more than just Skye. Fie on Ward. And fie on his beard, too.

 

I really hope the suicide attempts were a part of his long con/emotional manipulation of Skye. Hell, she was the one he insisted on interacting with, and she's emotionally the least hardened member of the team, the one it's easiest to get to.  Also, he is a seasoned, capable agent. If he truly wanted to die he would have found a way, I'm sure.

 

That doesn't surprise me. Going back to Draco in Leather Pants, there was an entire portion of Harry Potter fandom who thought Draco was just a poor misunderstood woobie. In fact there is a HUGE difference between his fanon and canon characters, and I haven't really participated in SHIELD fandom, but I'd guess that's the case with Ward as well. t's an oft-repeated tale, but when it really gets annoying is when writers desperate to please those fans mold the character to those fanon characteristics.

 

Yeah, fandom succumbing to the DILP syndrome isn't anything new. It's way worse when the writers themselves do it, and try to sweep all the bad things the character has done under the table. A good example is Once Upon A Time with Regina Mills, or The Vampire Diaries with basically all male vampires. I hope Ward simply isn't THAT popular to get the same treatment. Or maybe the writers just won't go there because they have moral standards (yeah, TV writers with moral standards? dream on).

[shrewd.buddha]

Well, he only killed guest stars and day players, and Fitz was only injured, not killed...  

He killed Agent Eric Koenig, whose brother is in charge of their new 'playground' bunker. Wonder if the 'new' Koenig will ever bring that up? And Ward killed Victoria Hand, but I suppose her popularity isn't that significant in TV-land. 

..But it's going to get old if we have to spend a segment of each episode having Ward give a Hannibal Lecture to the team. 

Basically, Coulson is negotiating with terrorists when he allows Ward to dictate the terms of how he shares information.

 

Remember in the pilot episode when Coulson shot Ward with a serum that allowed Syke to ask him any question and he was unable to resist answering truthfully?  ..Because the writers apparently don't.

Edited September 25, 2014 by shrewd.buddha

[tv echo]

This show has markedly improved from last season.  It still has its flaws, though (as others have noted).

I loved the flashback opening scene with Agent Carter and the two CA team members.

 

I was completely surprised by the Simmons reveal.  When we first see Fitz, there's a small fakeout where we think he might be deaf or catatonic, then it's just an earbud.  But at the end when we find out that he's been hallucinating Simmons, that was a 'whoa' moment and quite heartbreaking.

 

I like that Coulson has become less nice guy and more big picture ruthless.  I like the new Skye, and May was awesome.  Ward has done a complete 180 from bland to creepily intriguing.

 

As tv usual, the official government types like Talbot were completely stupid.

 

So I guess they're going to replace Ward on the team with that surviving Team Lawless guy?

[kitlee625]

I like that Coulson has become less nice guy and more big picture ruthless.  I like the new Skye, and May was awesome.  Ward has done a complete 180 from bland to creepily intriguing.

 

So I agree. I think some people really liked Coulson's fatherly persona from season 1, but it makes no sense to me to be head of a giant spy organization if you're going to treat everyone like you are their overprotective parent. I love the moral dilemma and sacrifice in the first episode. That's what I wanted all along, a show that felt more like a super spy show and less Scooby and the Gang traveling around in the Magical Mystery Bus. There need to be real stakes, and having missions not go off as planned, having Fitz have prolonged complications from his anoxic brain injury, and having to sacrifice people's lives, are a good way to show us those stakes. Making hard calls is what being director of S.H.I.E.L.D. is all about.

 

Remember in the pilot episode when Coulson shot Ward with a serum that allowed Syke to ask him any question and he was unable to resist answering truthfully?  ..Because the writers apparently don't.

 

So I really think that was a ploy. The truth serum was faked. Coulson injected Ward with some mild sedative, and he pretended to be under truth serum. If it were real, the entire rest of the season doesn't make sense. They interrogate numerous people - the Asgardian professor, Vanchat, etc. - and it's never mentioned again.

 

TBH finding out that the truth serum was a ploy was the first time I thought Coulson and the writers were clever. Because when I saw him injecting Ward I was like, you've got to be kidding me. I know that this girl is going to be a major character, but the characters have only known her for a few minutes, and she's working against them. Why is Coulson giving her unfettered access to someone with classified information, just so she will trust them? It seemed like an incredibly dumb move. But if it's a fake, then bravo both Coulson and Ward for playing her.

 

I really hope the suicide attempts were a part of his long con/emotional manipulation of Skye. Hell, she was the one he insisted on interacting with, and she's emotionally the least hardened member of the team, the one it's easiest to get to.  Also, he is a seasoned, capable agent. If he truly wanted to die he would have found a way, I'm sure.

 

This gets into what I like about evil Ward. In the beginning he was just this bland, by the book agent with a hidden good guy/goofy guy (he likes Battleship!) But after the reveal I liked just how devious and manipulative he is. I really hope that this is all part of a diabolic plan/manipulation in order to break free. (Brett Dalton fwiw has teased a breakout.) But the idea that he is a wounded puppy being kicked by the big bad Coulson while puppy cries himself to sleep just makes me roll my eyes.

[Sandman]

It was Chris Pratt in Guardians of the Galaxy:  “I blew a couple of takes because I was making the shooting sounds with my mouth while I was filming,” Pratt says, laughing. “They said, ‘What are you doing with your mouth?’ And I was like, ‘pewpewpewpewpew,’” he says, sounding like an 11-year-old running around a backyard.

 

I think he's revealed the secret of why people want to be on tv. (Really, he's a total dorkpants, but it's kind of sweet.)

 

I really hope the suicide attempts were a part of his long con/emotional manipulation of Skye.

 

I'm absolutely convinced that they are. I just hope she sees it that way.

 

Why is Coulson giving her unfettered access to someone with classified information, just so she will trust them? It seemed like an incredibly dumb move. But if it's a fake, then bravo both Coulson and Ward for playing her. 

 

Yeah, the test wasn't to see how Ward reacted; it was to see how the idea of truth serum got Skye to lower her guard. Of course, this implies that when that nasty Ward manipulates Skye, it's evil and wrong, and when Coulson does it, it's regrettable necessity. Nice work if you can get it, I guess.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Sandman

[blackwing]

I enjoyed the episode, but I was a bit confused about Agent Hartley's team.  Who were they exactly?  They were tasked with acquiring the doohickey but failed and then SHIELD came in to take it and then they ended up working with SHIELD?

 

I clearly wasn't paying much attention.  One of the people on her team was a black guy named "Idaho".  Is that the same guy as "Mac"?  And if not, who is Mac?  It looks to me like the lone survivor English guy is going to join the team.  Glad that the team will now have him and Tripp, because I always thought it weird last season that Coulson's lead SHIELD team consisted of only two real agents (May and Ward), two technogeeks, and a computer hacker girl.

 

Regarding Absorbing Man and his magic pants, in the comics, he was wearing his pants and carrying his ball and chain when he acquired his powers, so the pants and ball and chain can also change into whatever substance he wants.  However, on the show, I'm presuming that after he was taken into custody and put into that glass cell, that he was stripped and given that set of prison scrubs.  Presumably the prison scrubs are ordinary clothes.  So maybe in this show he can change whatever he is wearing into the substance if he wants.

 

I never thought of Creel as particularly bright.  Very astute of him to absorb rubber to provide a barrier against the doohickey.

[Jamoche]

If the showrunners are being serious about the likelihood of evoking mixed emotions with Ward, they've catastrophically over-estimated the power of their writers ...

Well, that part's always been a given.

[Glory]

Eh, I just figured the pants were like the Hulk's pants. There when they need to be. Gone when it's funny to have him pantsless. I mean, a giant green shlong isn't really PG-13 right? 

[Sarahastro]

Mac is the black guy we see talking to Trip after the first mission about whether they got any new gadgets. Idaho is the guy who was with them in the field who isn't Lance Hunter.

 

Hartley is a former S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who was working undercover, and when Coulson recruited her, she brought along a couple of mercenaries. It seems like Coulson sent Hartley and the mercenaries in undercover to buy from the former S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, and also had Skye, May, and Trip follow them as backup. Presumably Hartley and the mercenaries had to do the actual buy because it was less likely that they would be recognized as part of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[blackwing]

Thanks, clearly I wasn't paying attention if I couldn't figure out who Mac is.  Is he part of the team now too?  And I'm presuming Idaho is dead.

 

Am I the only one laughing at the name "Lance Hunter"?  Seems a bit over the top to me, and very comic bookish.  The only thing funnier would be something like Dirk "I have a big penis" Blade.

[kitlee625]

If the showrunners are being serious about the likelihood of evoking mixed emotions with Ward, they've catastrophically over-estimated the power of their writers or underestimated their audience, or both.

 

Also overestimated their actor. Brett Dalton was creepy, not sympathetic.

 

Edit: Truthfully the press is all over the place on Ward. Brett Dalton refers to him as an anti-hero, and Maurissa Tancharoen refers him as "clearly the villain in season 1." They tease redemption, and then Jed Whedon refers to him as "the monster in the basement." So I think they're messing with us.

Edited September 25, 2014 by kitlee625

[Sarahastro]

Thanks, clearly I wasn't paying attention if I couldn't figure out who Mac is.  Is he part of the team now too?  And I'm presuming Idaho is dead.

 

Mac is not listed as a main cast member, but I think he's going to be recurring. He'll probably hang out at the Playground with Koenig.

 

Am I the only one laughing at the name "Lance Hunter"?  Seems a bit over the top to me, and very comic bookish. The only thing funnier would be something like Dirk "I have a big penis" Blade.

 

You're not alone. And the actor's name is even more comic bookish: Nick Blood. I've started referring to him as Blood Hunter.

[Wilowy]

Agreed kitlee625. And I have never seen what the big deal is about Dalton, anyway. He's a mediocre actor at best, and he has nice dimples but nothing else that great as far as physicality goes. I couldn't care less about him OR Skye. I'd like to see both of them Fridged.

[Sandman]

I think if sympathy were *actually* what the script called for (despite the claims in the article), Dalton could put it over. He's not the subtlest, but I don't think he's incompetent. I think the writers are playing both sides in the press -- or wanting to eat their cake and have it, too.

kitlee625's right: they're messing with us.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Sandman

[DeLurker]

 

Am I the only one laughing at the name "Lance Hunter"?  Seems a bit over the top to me, and very comic bookish.

Well this is Marvel Agents of SHIELD.

[Dandesun]

 

I never thought of Creel as particularly bright.  Very astute of him to absorb rubber to provide a barrier against the doohickey.

 

It was clever of him... although the minute he did it, I started singing 'I'm rubber and you're glue!' to myself.

 

 

He can still do so much for the side of good, and if Romanoff (Black Widow) was once bad and from what I understand an assassin, heck, why can't Ward be brought back into the light?

 

I don't think that's an equal comparison. Natasha was an assassin/spy, yes, but when Clint made the decision to bring her under SHIELD's banner as opposed to killing her and Fury made the decision to accept her there was no longer any question as to her loyalty. The majority of work we've seen from her in the films, she's been very closely tied to Fury -- so much so that when the Winter Soldier tagged him she was devastated. "Don't do this to me, Nick." What's more, when she and Steve uncovered the truth about HYDRA's infiltration, she outed her own secrets as well as HYDRA's... 

 

Ward was a HYDRA mole from jump. He was recruited by HYDRA and he remained with them, betraying the people he was working side by side with. Natasha came from the other side and has not betrayed anyone. She uncovered the truth about HYDRA along with Steve... and hey, she earned the respect and trust of Steve Rogers, which isn't easy to do, and she did it the hard way.

 

Natasha may be willing to cross certain lines as part of her work, particularly when it's under Fury's orders but she not a mole. Ward betrayed his entire team and tried to kill at least three of them (Simmons, Fitz and May) if not the others (off hand I'm not remembering specific incidents but it wouldn't surprise me.) He was working to take them out, not help them. So, no, he's not earned the right of redemption and it would be a long time before I would say he had.

[APSimpson]

Dandesun - good point about Ward and Black Widow. I'm not too familiar with the comic book version of Black Widow or her history, but it had been a point others had made that if she could be brought to good, then so could Ward, but I agree with you that what Ward did was different and would be unforgivable to many; him being a mole and with HYDRA and murdering Hand and what he did with Fitz and Simmons. Plenty more there, too. 

 

I had initially thought Ward was just undercover and killing Hand was staged. I thought he was still with SHIELD and he and Coulson had planned for him to go undercover. Remember that look Ward and Coulson exchanged at the end of Turn, Turn, Turn? Yep, I was fooled. Clearly I was wrong, Hand is dead, and Ward is really bad.

 

But here's the thing: Ward is going to be redeemed. Chloe Bennet when asked about Ward and Skye being together had mentioned something along the lines of 'yeah they are destined or soulmates or something like that but there's a lot that they need to go through first.' I think because of Ward's horrible upbringing, he'll eventually be forgiven by the team, maybe not by everyone, but enough to work with/assist the team/be part of the cast more than just a visit to the basement. I want to see that, too, because I'm a big Ward fan. But I'm a fan of him as a good guy, and I miss that Ward.

[Dandesun]

 

I'm not too familiar with the comic book version of Black Widow or her history, but it had been a point others had made that if she could be brought to good, then so could Ward, but I agree with you that what Ward did was different and would be unforgivable to many

 

I'm not getting into the comic version of Natasha... that's a lot more convoluted and messed up and dates back to the Cold War. What we know of her in the MCU is that she was made into a spy at a very young age -- 5 to 7 at least -- and through her career working in Russia she has done a number of things she's not proud of. As she puts it, she has 'red in her ledger.' She seems to work from a standpoint in that the more good she does; she makes up for the evil she's done. Whether that's ethically, morally or karmically possible is up for debate... but the intent to do better is there.

 

Now, would the organization she turned on and left decide to take her back? Would they consider her a valid risk and a valuable asset? It's likely the answer is no... she betrayed them, knowingly and willingly. They wouldn't be likely to accept her excuses of a bad childhood to offer her a means of earning their trust again.

 

SHIELD is not an order of paladins by any means but Ward betrayed them by aligning with HYDRA while in their ranks and falling in line with HYDRA when the truth about the corruption came out. He chose his loyalty to HYDRA over SHIELD and he actively worked to kill members of his previous team, the team that he turned on. So Ward and Skye being alleged soulmates (ugh) is irrelevant to me. Their so called romance means nothing to me, personally, so I'm not looking at this as a means of some love story. I know fucked up love stories, some I've hated, some I've loved but whatever this is between them doesn't entice me to invest. All I know is that he's a traitor and it would take a great deal over a significant period of time to earn the rights to be trusted by any of them again... and even then, they should always be looking at him with a jaundiced eye. 

 

That's the price of betrayal.

[kitlee625]

Agreed, Dandesun.

 

The other thing is that "good guy" Ward was all an act. Everything he did nice - taking Skye under his wing, having sex with May, befriending Fitz, saving Simmons' life - were calculated as part of his cover. He even lied about his favorite football team! Maybe some of that good guy is deep down, who knows? The truth is that we, like the characters, don't know and have little reason to trust him now. So the idea that he is going to go back to "good guy" Ward and ride off into the sunset with Skye, to me, is silly. Characters can't go back, they can only go forwards. (Which incidentally is the tagline of this season.)

 

All the interviews and press for this show are a mess because they want to play both sides. Jed and Mo alternatively call him a "victim" and "clearly the villain" and "the monster in the basement." So everything from interviews I take with a lump of salt, particularly from the actors who know little about the characters past what they have filmed. I mean before "Yes Men" Brett Dalton didn't even know that he was a Hydra spy. (Which tbh I think is a waste. It would have been so much better to factor in that into his performance, but the actor himself has said that he couldn't have done it without tipping his hand.)

 

Ward personally tried to kill all 5 members of the team. He shot at Coulson and Skye while they were escaping. He tried to kill May in the finale. He threw Fitz and Simmons in the ocean. They by no means are obligated to pretend like this didn't happen, and I think doing so would make them look stupid.

Edited September 25, 2014 by kitlee625

[thuganomics85]

Also, has Ward even shown any regret, yet?  Right now, it doesn't feel like he feels any guilt over the people he's killed.  Right now, if anything, it feels like most of his "redemption" and trying to help out, it because he wants Skye to like him again.  Until he starts admitting that he was wrong to kill overall good people like Hand, Koeing, etc, tried to kill the team, and that he is responsible for why Fitz is the way he is now, then he really hasn't change at all, IMO.

 

Again, I'm hoping this is all an act, and Ward will remain a villain.  I just can't see someone like Fitz or especially Melinda wanting to be at his side ever again; no matter how "sorry" he is.  If he rejoins the team, I will probably never buy it and, if anything, lose respect for Coulson and everyone else for welcoming back.

[benteen]

I think he's revealed the secret of why people want to be on tv. (Really, he's a total dorkpants, but it's kind of sweet.)

 

 

I'm absolutely convinced that they are. I just hope she sees it that way.

 

 

Yeah, the test wasn't to see how Ward reacted; it was to see how the idea of truth serum got Skye to lower her guard. Of course, this implies that when that nasty Ward manipulates Skye, it's evil and wrong, and when Coulson does it, it's regrettable necessity. Nice work if you can get it, I guess.

 

Yep.  When Coulson leads a raid and murders two guards, it's okay.

 

About Creel's intelligence, yeah, he's definitely not supposed to be bright in the comics.  Various Marvel guides state he has below average intelligence.  They might have smartened him up a little for the show but I doubt that much.

[thuganomics85]

 

Yep.  When Coulson leads a raid and murders two guards, it's okay.

Ha, I'm still trying to forget about that scene.  This show at it's worst, IMO.  They had night-night guns and everything, but they still brought the real stuff, and just off those two.  And, of course, it was all because Skye 1.0. (Special Snarky Snowflake Edition)'s life was in peril! I really hope they don't pull a stunt like that again.

[Sandman]

I'm busy fanwanking that the two guards were Hydra ...

[Watcher0363]

It actually makes it worse for Ward to not only get a positive redemption arc, but the strong possibility of Ward/Skye happening. I can't see it happening this season at all. I don't even see them happening period. Skye would never get with someone like Ward, not now, not after what he's done.

 

 

I'm fine with Skye never having anything to do with Ward again, at this point. But I think she's protesting too much. Any romantic relationship between them now should be a non-starter, but I fear the worst.

As I read the following I both cringed and laughed a little. With all the domestic abuse we are talking about in the US now. I  could not help but think that, yeah Skye would get with that Ward. Of course we would have to listen to her tell Ward how much she hates him and herself more for being so weak as to sleep with him. I can almost hear Ward saying, "Don't beat yourself up to much, after all I am everybody's type, the vagina wants what the vagina wants."

[Dusty]

 

He chose his loyalty to HYDRA over SHIELD and he actively worked to kill members of his previous team, the team that he turned on.

Before I play Devil's Advocate let me say that I'm not down with the Ward redemption arc if that's where they're going.  I think an actor/character needs a certain amount of charisma and just that "it" factor to even attempt to pull it off. He just does not have it. Not to mention the writing has to be on point.  Ward was originally loyal to HYDRA.  As someone said before he was recruited by HYRDA to infiltrate SHIELD.  He wasn't in SHIELD and then decided to turn on them.  While that difference might be of little consequence to people because he was obviously on the side of bad and SHIELD are the "good" guys but I do think order in which the loyalty came does matter.  I don't really feel like he turned on SHIELD.  He was never really part of that team.  He was never, ever loyal to them in any of the time we've seen him. He's not even loyal to them now. His only reason for helping them is because it gives him some sort of access to Skye. So in the list of his transgressions, that's at like the way, way bottom for me.  If anything, he was blindingly loyal.  It's kind of like on The Americans.  I don't think Philip and Elizabeth are betraying America.  They're Russians pretending to be Americans working for Russia.

[Jeezaloo]

Going back to the comics, if Creel turns into gas or a liquid he runs the risk of being dispersed (I think the Hulk clapped him apart once). But the nature of his powers allows him to pull himself back together eventually

 

Thanks Kirk. I've been taken apart by the clap as well, but that's a different story for a different day.

 

 

 

[HistoryGirl]

Upon my millionth watching of 2x01, I discovered something. 

 

The director planted Fitz's condition way earlier than Coulson's speech. 

[Sarahastro]

Nice catch HistoryGirl.

 

 

While that difference might be of little consequence to people because he was obviously on the side of bad and SHIELD are the "good" guys but I do think order in which the loyalty came does matter.  I don't really feel like he turned on SHIELD.  He was never really part of that team.  He was never, ever loyal to them in any of the time we've seen him. He's not even loyal to them now. His only reason for helping them is because it gives him some sort of access to Skye. So in the list of his transgressions, that's at like the way, way bottom for me.  If anything, he was blindingly loyal.  It's kind of like on The Americans.  I don't think Philip and Elizabeth are betraying America.  They're Russians pretending to be Americans working for Russia.

 

Good point, Dusty. (For the record, I do not want redemption either.) However I would argue that we have not seen any signs that he wants to be in S.H.I.E.L.D. What motivation does he have to want to join them? Coulson murdered Garrett, who was basically his father. He also may blame Coulson and May for turning Skye against him. (I only saw the episode once, but IIRC when he was talking to Skye it sounded like he was blaming Coulson for keeping them apart.) Why would he ever want to follow Coulson's orders? He also never seemed that bothered by what he did for Hydra. Even now, IMO he doesn't really want to help S.H.I.E.L.D. -- he just wants to use his information to force Skye to visit him.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Sarahastro

[Chicago Redshirt]

Hypothetically, he could have the same sort of motivation as Black Widow -- the realization that he has a lot of red in his ledger and he wants to wash it out, spurred by acts of mercy and love (this time from Skye/Coulson rather than Hawkeye.) I think the dynamic is much different though -- BW did not personally betray Hawkeye, Fury or even SHIELD as far as we know. She was just working openly for another agency or agencies. Also BW is on a singular level of skill. There is a risk that she might be a double agent, but the fact that she is literally the best of the best might make that risk worth it. Not so much with Grant, who is obviously supposed to be very good, but would have to stop short of world-class operative. The pickings might be slim post-Winter Soldier in terms of people with his level of skills that they can trust, but they aren't that slim. 

[Dusty]

Yeah I've seen no indication that he wants to be in SHIELD either or cares about anyone in it other than Skye.  This episode certainly didn't bring that across if that was their attempt.  I think his motivations for helping SHIELD are entirely selfish. He wants Skye to talk to him so the only way he'll help them is if she does.  If they were trying to go for a redemption arc they're doing a terrible job of it right out the gate.  Hopefully this means they're aren't going for the redemption arc.

[kitlee625]

Yeah I've seen no indication that he wants to be in SHIELD either or cares about anyone in it other than Skye.  This episode certainly didn't bring that across if that was their attempt.  I think his motivations for helping SHIELD are entirely selfish. He wants Skye to talk to him so the only way he'll help them is if she does.  If they were trying to go for a redemption arc they're doing a terrible job of it right out the gate.  Hopefully this means they're aren't going for the redemption arc.

 

My thoughts exactly. It was almost like a joke of a redemption arc. "I got brain damage and when I woke up I became a new, good person who just wants to protect you Skye." Ick. I had thought about what would make me accept a redemption arc, and I think that first and foremost is him realizing that what he did for Garrett was wrong and expressing remorse for his actions. It's so simple, and yet we got none of that. Hopefully they will continue down the route of dark and manipulative Ward because he's way more interesting than a wounded puppy who just wants to take Skye on a date.

[KirkB]

Creel never has been portrayed as very intelligent it's true, but by the same token it doesn't take much brainpower to see a severed and partially mutated hand holding on to the thing you're after and deciding it's best not to touch it with bare skin.

[jhlipton]

What kind of military base that does not have hard barrier on its gates? And for such very important 0-8-4, what kind of crappy warehouse does the military put it in? Even evidence lockers in most TV police procedurals are much better than that.

 

 

Plywood barriers are now the industry standard for all exits from secure locations.  Please note that most entrances will still have iron barriers.

 

 

Remember in the pilot episode when Coulson shot Ward with a serum that allowed Syke to ask him any question and he was unable to resist answering truthfully?  ..Because the writers apparently don't.

 

Before reading that the truth serum was a fake, I thought it was a trope-ish only-one-dose kind of thing -- it works once but never again.

 

 

Yep.  When Coulson leads a raid and murders two guards, it's okay.

 

Carried over to the "Morals" thread.

 

I do have to wonder at Coulson's sense of priorities.  Mine would have been:

• Secure Creel
• Secure the artifact
• If time, steal a cloaked jet

 

They wound up with neither Creel nor the artifact, and in fact, accomplished what they berated Talbot for: leading Creel directly to the [Not-an-]Obelisk.

[TV Anonymous]

Plywood barriers are now the industry standard for all exits from secure locations.  Please note that most entrances will still have iron barriers.

 

I did not mean the gate. I meant physical barriers or pop-up barriers that meant to physically stop unwanted vehicles. Here, this is one example. NSFW for the language, not the picture.

[MDKNIGHT]

The way he talked to Skye reminded me of the creeper who stalked the Amy Acker character last season.  Sure he can SAY he loves Skye, the stalker "Loved" Amy Acker but it has no relation to what normal people would consider love.   I still remember Ward's complete confusion at Skye pointing out he was following a Nazi, a bonifide Nazi.  His expression said "Yeah and so what does that have to do with us dating? Can't I pick you up at 8 and go see a movie?"  And I'm sorry but the dude went along with putting one brother in a well because another brother told him to.  That does not scream redeemable material.  Nor does killing your own doggy pal and putting Fitzsimmons the human equivalent of a bag of kittens at the bottom of an ocean to die slowly.  This isn't even Once Upon a Time where at least we are dealing with Fairy Tale characters with very dubious connections to normal human emotions and where redeeming the irredeemable STILL doesn't make sense.  Skye isn't Snow White and should not be able to forgive the homicidal tendencies of someone she cared about.  At least Snow met Regina when she was a child and bonded to her like she were a step-mom.  Skye was an adult and in a romantic flirtation not a FAMILY bond between child and pseudo parent. I hasten to point out that the show glossing over Regina's past and acting like she's been redeemed when she hasn't is one of the things a LOT of folks object to.  Ward doesn't even have half the charisma as Lana Parilla so I expect fans to be EVEN MORE upset if they declare Ward redeemed.  (Does Disney own AOS because I know they own OUAT so this may all be a warped Disney view of the universe.   

[redfish]

(Does Disney own AOS because I know they own OUAT so this may all be a warped Disney view of the universe.

Yes. Disney bought Marvel and in a way they own AOS.

[jhlipton]

I did not mean the gate. I meant physical barriers or pop-up barriers that meant to physically stop unwanted vehicles. Here, this is one example. NSFW for the language, not the picture.

 

Gotcha -- the things that became de rigueur after the bombing in Beirut during the 80's (a truck full of explosives drove into a Marine barracks).   

[shapeshifter]

As someone who had a TBI at 24, with a nice chunk of my temporal lobe gone Fitz made me tear up with familiarity. I did not hallucinate friends. There came a point after 3 months of rehab, where recovery only occurs in your regular life. I was a shuffling slurring mess who cried all the time but living life really helped me. My memory is better than injury state but not what it was. Just an FYI from a survivor...

Thanks for this post. Based on other comments here, it doesn't seem like the show has yet done an adequate job of conveying the nature of his injury. Or maybe I'm just not correctly interpreting comments? It seems like many think his trauma is primarily psychological rather than physical brain injury.

No. They can't kill of[f] Lucy Lawless' character after one episode after that much hype. Nope. Na-ah. I will live in the world of denial.

Think of her as her Cylon self.

I think they've found a good way to keep Ward on the show for the time being and it actually makes sense.  I agree that I don't want to see a redemption arc.  At best, he should be an uneasy ally they have to team up with once and a while.

If they are going for a redemption arc, they better get busy showing flash backs to his childhood self getting brainwashed into HYDRA, including showing Garrett as the one pulling the trigger on the dog.

[kitlee625]

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people saying that Coulson and co are mistreating Fitz, and that if he had proper care, Fitz would be back to normal. I strongly disagree. In my experience, this is a pretty good representation of anoxic brain injury (brain injury due to lack of oxygen). He's actually in quite good shape to be up, walking, and be as functional as he is. And with this kind of injury he may never be the same since the brain does not regenerate. If the writers had written him back to normal (or nearly normal), I would frankly be annoyed.

 

The type of injury can vary a lot - problems with memory, hallucinations, problems with coordination, problems with word finding or other speech problems - could happen, but a lot of the recovery would involve physical/occupational therapy in order to maximize function and learn to compensate for it. Now, we aren't seeing that because this is several months later, but the fact that when we left he was under the care of a team of Fury's doctors, and we now see him taking medication makes it reasonable that he has gotten medical care and rehab. I wonder what exact type of medication he is taking. Temporal lobe injury is associated with seizures - perhaps he is on antiseizure medication. I'm interested to see how his recovery continues to progress.

 

Of course there are some questions about why he's still there and not with his mother perhaps. But presumably being a fugitive, with his identity erased, and potential target of Hydra means that the team can't let him out of the Playground without putting him in serious danger.

[Wilowy]

True that the brain doesn't regenerate, but there are compounds and substances in the Marvel 'verse that can make that happen. Also, the brain can re-route. Neural pathways take detours sometimes. I'm also looking forward to seeing how Fitz's recovery manifests. Will the injury give him some type of cognitive superpower? Will he go evil (I hope not)? 

 

Whatever's in store for him, it translates into more Fitz screen time and I'm all for that! 

[kitlee625]

Definitely true that in the Marvel universe there are some magical substances that could cure him. Although personally I'm glad that they did not reach into that pocket over the hiatus because I think it lowers the stakes of the universe if every injury (even death) has a fix it pill. If the characters are too powerful / can never be hurt, we the audience will be less invested in the action because we know that they are never really in danger. It's why I got tired of Star Trek Voyager, because they kept hitting the reset button.

 

The brain does reroute and take over, though more commonly in children than in adults. In young children, for example, you can remove an entire hemisphere of the brain in the case of intractable epilepsy, and the child can lead a mostly normal life. As an adult, it could translate to a wide range of outcomes. Fitz may be close to normal, or he may not. Anoxic brain injury creates a more diffuse injury though compared to a stroke, which can be far more focal (affecting for example a single arm/leg). It seems like they are going the route of the slow recovery, which I am all for because again, it adds weight to the actions and adds more tension/drama to the show.