S01.E12: This is That Moment

[chitowngirl]

Olympia and Julian's issues intensify as they each represent opposing sides in a nasty custody case; Matty uses the firm's security system to her advantage
 

Airdate February 20, 2025 on CBS.

[AnimeMania]

Marnee Carpenter as Ellie Kingston, Matty's dead daughter

Mauricio Mendoza as Bruno Cortez

Greta Quispe as Paloma Deleon

Johnny Cannizzaro as Adam Betancourt

[johntfs]

I'm really hoping that we're not going to some weird relationship triangle between Billy, Simone and Sarah. 

[shapeshifter]

I may be done with this show — at least for now.

[DanaK]

Man, the parts about Ellie’s past custody hearing were heartbreaking

[MerBearHou]

7 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I may be done with this show — at least for now.

I’m real, real close on that.  I have figured out over the weeks of watching this that for me, Matty’s disingenuousness is a real bother.  I have grown to semi-doubt everything she says and does at work and now even a bit at home.  And I’m not moved anymore by her crusade to find out the truth about her daughter’s death and the law firm’s actions.  Kathy Bates is doing too good of a job of playing fake-buddy-buddy.  

[Irlandesa]

I enjoyed the episode.  But I've liked the introduction of less sympathetic aspects of Matty.

I thought the Billy and Sarah wrap up was well done too.

The only thing I didn't like was Olympia and Julian getting so close to having the discussion about the pen. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

If they hadn't gained custody of Alfie, he might have died instead of Ellie, who would then have gone to jail.  They were right to fight for the child (although I don't know why Ellie couldn't have had weekly supervised visits in their home.)

Edited Friday at 05:56 AM by ItCouldBeWorse

[Izzy85]

14 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If they hadn't gained custody of Alfie, he might have died instead of Ellie, who would have gone to jail.  They were right to fight for the child (although I don't know why Ellie couldn't have had weekly supervised visits in their home.)

I might have heard wrong, but I think Matty told Ellie she could have daily supervised visits if she wanted. She just wanted her clean, and Alfie safe.

I see some are starting to dislike Matty, but I'm starting to really dislike her husband. I don't like that he's hiding things from her and my heart broke for Matty when he told her he blames her for Ellie's overdose. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

49 minutes ago, Izzy85 said:

I might have heard wrong, but I think Matty told Ellie she could have daily supervised visits if she wanted. She just wanted her clean, and Alfie safe.

Only after Ellie had been clean for a year.  So not for 11 months.  

[andromeda331]

I'm getting close to quitting too.

Sarah is driving me crazy. She was all over Olympia and couldn't take the hint to back off. Like when she clearly wasn't wanted in the elevator. Anything that Olympia said she was all over her. Not listening when Olympia told her to think before she spoke. Then going off on the neighbor. While I do like that she seemed to learn when talking to the neighbor later. But it never occured that talking to the neighbor would be a good idea. She said when she first talk to her and Billy that she was neighborhood watch. It never occured to her that she might have information. I'm mad that Billy didn't pick up on that either.

Watching Julian and Olympia fighting wasn't good. I really wish Julian picked up on the pen because he didn't know what she was talking about. He didn't. It got lost in them ending up in jail. I'm glad they decided to stop fighting.

I have mixed feelings about Paloma. I find it hard to believe she didn't know she couldn't leave the country with her son. Then she tried to take him again and when that didn't work she locked herself in a room. I'm glad it got worked out for their son. But I still have mixed feelings about her. Her ex suing the soccer coach to keep him from talking wasn't cool either.

I wonder if all Matty going after the evidence is because she blames herself too.  She's always going to wonder if she didn't take custody of Alfie if her daughter would still be alive. I'm not sure. Ellie wasn't telling the truth about how long she had been clean. Although as Matty learned later there was a way for Alfie to have gotten his hand burned by the tea kettle. That court case with her daughter was brutal. Her daughter begging later. 

Edited Friday at 08:52 AM by andromeda331

[ItCouldBeWorse]

25 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Sarah is driving me crazy. She was all over Olympia and couldn't take the hint to back off. Like when she clearly wasn't wanted in the elevator. Anything that Olympia said she was all over her. Not listening when Olympia told her to think before she spoke.

In a real highly competitive law firm, Sarah would not be getting good performance reviews.  New associates are supposed to be devoted to their work and unobtrusive.  Sarah is highly obtrusive and annoying. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Are Billy and Sarah really the best people that Olympia could send to sweep for bugs?  What equipment did they use?  This isn't House where the junior doctors had to look for clues in the patients' homes.  Big law firms have actual experts on retainer for this (and yes, I know the client couldn't pay for them, but this whole case seems to be pro bono, and if Olympia wants to win, she needs to use actual experts.)

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, johntfs said:

I'm really hoping that we're not going to some weird relationship triangle between Billy, Simone and Sarah. 

Sadly, there is approximately 0 percent chance that there will not be some level of drama with Simone vs. workwife/law school rival Sarah over Billy.

Sarah is prone to see everything as a potential betrayal, so even going to drinks with Simone is going to spark some tension with her.

I am presuming that we are not going to the point where Sarah turns out to be bi and decides she really wants a romantic relationship with Billy after Simone steps up as the other woman. But I would not rule that out either.

I just hope that Simone actually is interested on some level in Billy rather than simply trying to mess with Sarah and being willing to use Billy as a pawn, especially if she happens to know he's fresh off a breakup.

Also, I know Simone's reasonably attractive, but I'd like to think the average guy  would resist any sort of actual romantic relationship with someone petty enough to mind-game someone that she needs breath mints and then to steal those breath mints. Especially if the person they did that to was someone they cared about. So not a good look, and one would have to think: is she going to pull some of this sort of stuff on me?

But maybe I'm giving guys too much credit. Or underestimating the power of hate sex.

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Only after Ellie had been clean for a year.  So not for 11 months.  

There are two possible ways to read the exchange with Ellie, and I'm not sure which is correct.

The one I thought was correct on first watch was Matty effectively saying, "When you've been clean a year, you can have full custody of Alfie again. Until then, I'm going to have custody and you can have supervised visits with him daily."

On seeing your post, I could see the version of "I'm taking full custody now, and once you've managed to be clean for a year, you can have supervised visits with him daily. Until then, not so much." being what was meant.

I watched the scene a bunch of times, and I couldn't come to a conclusion as to which was meant. 

Indeed, it could be that Matty meant the former, but Ellie took it to be the latter.

This episode brought some definition to Ellie, which on one level I appreciate. But on another, it muddles things further.

Because this episode creates a very different narrative than I'd understood us to be under. The notion seemed to be that Ellie was addicted to drugs and had an accidental overdose because they opioids are so addictive.

Maybe I've got the wrong impression, but it seemed like Ellie was very much on the right track of kicking her habit. It very much seems like they are outright saying that losing the custody battle may have caused her to commit suicide, particularly with how soon her death was after losing. And if that's the case, the crusade against opioids is even more misguided than I originally thought it was.

It does make the guilt Matty feels about her daughter's death and her role in it more real though.

Also, confirming that Alfie was born addicted is something. I was like oh, snap.

 

[baldryanr]

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

In a real highly competitive law firm, Sarah would not be getting good performance reviews.  New associates are supposed to be devoted to their work and unobtrusive.  Sarah is highly obtrusive and annoying. 

Makes you wonder how she got through law in the first place.  You have to able to at least fake not being socially awkward and pushy until you're so valuable it gets labeled as eccentric instead of annoying.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Because this episode creates a very different narrative than I'd understood us to be under. The notion seemed to be that Ellie was addicted to drugs and had an accidental overdose because they opioids are so addictive.

Maybe I've got the wrong impression, but it seemed like Ellie was very much on the right track of kicking her habit. It very much seems like they are outright saying that losing the custody battle may have caused her to commit suicide, particularly with how soon her death was after losing. And if that's the case, the crusade against opioids is even more misguided than I originally thought it was.

This is what I also what I came up with after watching. It's not the Ellie overdosed due to her addiction, but committed suicide after losing custody. Yes, factor is because she was an addict.

[Starchild]

16 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is what I also what I came up with after watching. It's not the Ellie overdosed due to her addiction, but committed suicide after losing custody. Yes, factor is because she was an addict.

It could still have been an accidental overdose. She said she was clean for a month so perhaps her tolerance decreased. If her relapse involved the same amount of drugs she took before getting clean, it could have been too much for her system to handle. Isn't that what happened to Amy Winehouse?

[marceline]

37 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is what I also what I came up with after watching. It's not the Ellie overdosed due to her addiction, but committed suicide after losing custody. Yes, factor is because she was an addict.

I'll have to rewatch but I was under the impression that Ellie relapsed when she lost custody of Alfie and overdosed.

Also, Baby Alfie was such a cutie!

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, marceline said:

I'll have to rewatch but I was under the impression that Ellie relapsed when she lost custody of Alfie and overdosed.

Also, Baby Alfie was such a cutie!

No, Ellie had relapsed before Matty took her to court-she told her parents she'd been clean when she was pregnant-lie-as Alfie was born addicted; then after getting custody, Ellie admitted she'd only been clean for a month-not three, like she had told them.

I think Matty's hard stance about visiting Alfie had Ellie committing suicide. 

With her guilt over that, I think Matty's thought process was, Ellie getting addicted in the first place caused the domino effect of Alfie's addiction and then Ellie's death.

Edited Friday at 03:23 PM by GHScorpiosRule

[Chicago Redshirt]

I know it's easy for me to say as someone not going through the grief that Matty and Edwin are going through, but hoo boy, do they need therapy. Their crusade against Big Pharma is even more misguided if Ellie committed suicide by overdose after having been clean for month and clean-adjacent for three. 

Yes, Ellie wouldn't have been pushed to suicide (presumably) if she hadn't lost the custody battle, and she wouldn't have lost the custody battle if she hadn't been an addict. But to divert blame from Ellie for making that choice and from themselves for pushing for sole custody to opioids in general and Wellbrexa in specific is wild.

They also need to stop jumping to conclusions. The e-mail from Joey said very little -- I'm a friend of Ellie's, or used to be, and I'd like to talk to you. From that, they have extrapolated:

1. This is probably Ellie's baby daddy

2. He was/is probably an addict

3. He is possibly interested in seeking custody of Alfie

None of these assumptions are necessarily true, or even likely. Ellie presumably had other friends she might have lost touch with who might want to connect with them for various reasons. Even assuming it's baby daddy, he could have never taken drugs a day in his life or he could have successfully kicked any habit. Even assuming baby daddy is an addict, there's no reason to assume that the reason he wants to reach out is because he wants full custody or shared custody of Alfie, or even knows Alfie exists.

In fact, it almost seems a given that the 3rd isn't true, because if he was interested in a custody battle, not responding to his e-mail isn't going to stop him. It would not take anyone who'd actually have designs on a court battle much effort to find where Edwin Kingston works/lives and to get them served. Especially if you spot them that he works at a given university.

As someone pointed out "Joey," could even be a nickname for Josephine. 

It would be a different thing if Ellie had told them that she had dated a Joey or something, but as presented, they seem to know absolutely nothing about Alfie's father.

4 minutes ago, marceline said:

I'll have to rewatch but I was under the impression that Ellie relapsed when she lost custody of Alfie and overdosed.

What we were shown was that the very day that Matty and Edwin took custody of Alfie at court was the day that Ellie ODed. That seems to be too quickly on the heels of "I've been not using for a month and I've been scared straight about Alfie having been harmed" to be coincidence. It very much seemed like she was devastated at the prospect of losing full custody of Alfie and either in despair over it or very much as a f--- you to Matty for her taking Alfie away killed herself.

And let me say that last exchange between Matty and Ellie, I could see both sides there too. Ellie wanted Matty to give Alfie his lovie, and Matty refused saying that Ellie could give it to him herself when she gets custody back. 

From Matty's perspective, she was trying to be sympathetic, and maybe even give Ellie a security blanket of her own to hold onto as she continued her efforts to be sober. 

From Ellie's perspective, Matty was refusing a simple request that would cost her nothing, shoving the platitude about the program working in her face and highlighting that she wouldn't get custody back for a year.

45 minutes ago, Starchild said:

It could still have been an accidental overdose. She said she was clean for a month so perhaps her tolerance decreased. If her relapse involved the same amount of drugs she took before getting clean, it could have been too much for her system to handle. Isn't that what happened to Amy Winehouse?

Yes, I know that addicts (like other people) don't act rationally. But it makes far more sense to me that Ellie deliberately ODed than she went from "I'm trying to be clean and got scared straight and haven't used for a month" to "Well, time to hit the pills again because my pill use in the past led to me losing custody, but whoopsie I took too much accidentally first time back."

Even assuming that it is was accidental, I think the possibility of it being suicide is something that I'd think Matty and Edwin would have to struggle with.

I've experienced friends/loved ones who have been suicidal but not specifically (as far as I know) ones who were drug addicts, so my views on this may be skewed.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But maybe I'm giving guys too much credit. Or underestimating the power of hate sex.

 

 

So maybe Billy and Sarah will both end up dating Simone?

[possibilities]

You have to know something about dealing with an addict to understand Matty's decisions.

Elie is known to be a liar. She lied about her drug use, and they know this. And more than once. We do not at all have any reason to think she was actually sober for a month when she said she was. From the fact that she couldn't even clean herself up to LOOK sober FOR COURT, and when begging to see Alfie, suggests to me that she is not sober, and if she is sober, she is not functioning rationally enough to be trusted with a child, especially one as young as Alfie was at that time.

And if she was so unstable as to not understand why she lost custody and was also being denied visitation, that also speaks to her lack of fitness to function as a parent, and thus that Matty was right to refuse to give up the custody fight or let her visit Alfie.

Even on a visit-- who knows what she would do? Even if supervised, would she traumatize him like the parents in the case of the week? He had already been born addicted and badly burned in her presence. Would she try to take him and force Matty to physically block her, grab him, or otherwise contend with a terrifying-for-the-toddler scene? Elie was not able to put Alfie's interests abover her own feelings even long enough to understand the situation. She could not be trusted, period.

Saying no to visitation is not an easy thing to get a court to rule for. That they did, also underlines just how out of it Elie was. 

Yes, when you are dealing with someone that dysfunctional, you tend to blame yourself, especially if it's your child or someone you love and are otherwise close to, but the fact is, all the evidence we were given points to Elie NOT being functional enough to be given any slack. Addicts that far gone have to be dealt with firmly. It's for their own good, but in this case also for the good of the child and everybody else she interacts with.

It is very difficult, but it is necessary.

Edwin's guilt and sometimes blaming Matty shows that he's more of a co-dependent than she is, and yes, they all need therapy.

And this is all why the malfeasance of Wellbrexa and the law firm, if true, is as bad as Matty thinks it is-- opioids are not just some drug that's not perfect. They are SUPER dangerous and they destroy lives, and promoting them while knowing but burying the risks of how bad they are, is indeed criminal and ought to be punished by any means necessary.

These drugs kill people, and they destroy lives not only of the users but also of the people around them. They have uses, but much fewer and under much more careful conditions than how they were promoted for, and this is why Matty and Edwin have gone to such lengths to try to expose the wrongdoing. 

[AnimeMania]

I don't see why you wouldn't want to allow daily supervised visitation rights, I would think you would want to see the addicted person who is trying to "kick the habit" every day, just to make sure that they are doing well, have everything the need, and are staying clean, just as much as the child you are trying to protect.

[possibilities]

Partly you are trying to incentivize her to get clean and stay that way. But also, you want to protect the child from potentially erratic behavior and scene making that could traumatize him further if she shows up high.

[Chicago Redshirt]

29 minutes ago, possibilities said:

You have to know something about dealing with an addict to understand Matty's decisions.

Elie is known to be a liar. She lied about her drug use, and they know this. And more than once. We do not at all have any reason to think she was actually sober for a month when she said she was. From the fact that she couldn't even clean herself up to LOOK sober FOR COURT, and when begging to see Alfie, suggests to me that she is not sober, and if she is sober, she is not functioning rationally enough to be trusted with a child, especially one as young as Alfie was at that time.

And if she was so unstable as to not understand why she lost custody and was also being denied visitation, that also speaks to her lack of fitness to function as a parent, and thus that Matty was right to refuse to give up the custody fight or let her visit Alfie.

Even on a visit-- who knows what she would do? Even if supervised, would she traumatize him like the parents in the case of the week? He had already been born addicted and badly burned in her presence. Would she try to take him and force Matty to physically block her, grab him, or otherwise contend with a terrifying-for-the-toddler scene? Elie was not able to put Alfie's interests abover her own feelings even long enough to understand the situation. She could not be trusted, period.

Saying no to visitation is not an easy thing to get a court to rule for. That they did, also underlines just how out of it Elie was. 

Yes, when you are dealing with someone that dysfunctional, you tend to blame yourself, especially if it's your child or someone you love and are otherwise close to, but the fact is, all the evidence we were given points to Elie NOT being functional enough to be given any slack. Addicts that far gone have to be dealt with firmly. It's for their own good, but in this case also for the good of the child and everybody else she interacts with.

It is very difficult, but it is necessary.

Edwin's guilt and sometimes blaming Matty shows that he's more of a co-dependent than she is, and yes, they all need therapy.

And this is all why the malfeasance of Wellbrexa and the law firm, if true, is as bad as Matty thinks it is-- opioids are not just some drug that's not perfect. They are SUPER dangerous and they destroy lives, and promoting them while knowing but burying the risks of how bad they are, is indeed criminal and ought to be punished by any means necessary.

These drugs kill people, and they destroy lives not only of the users but also of the people around them. They have uses, but much fewer and under much more careful conditions than how they were promoted for, and this is why Matty and Edwin have gone to such lengths to try to expose the wrongdoing. 

Point well taken that Ellie is a liar and that she might be lying about how long she has been sober and her willingness/ability to stay/get sober.

I may be a sucker that the burning would be enough of a wakeup call to give Ellie the benefit of the doubt.

But I do believe we previously saw Ellie say that she was going to get clean because of her being pregnant, and now we know she did not. So Matty had every reason to doubt her.

But I guess that's part of the theme of this episode: is it better to be right than to be happy? (Maybe I'm weird, but if I had to choose one, I'd rather be right than happy in most/many circumstances).

It seems with their resources, there should have been a way to reach a better win-win than "we've got full custody of Alfie, and you need to prove yourself plus you're on your own." 

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

As someone pointed out "Joey," could even be a nickname for Josephine

I have a female friend named Joey on her birth certificate in the 1950s.🤷‍♀️

 

About Ellie’s death: Possibly heroin unknowingly (to Ellie) laced with fentanyl? 

 

Several acquaintances' daughters who had babies when they and their partners were doing drugs went on to have more babies.
One of the babies died of head injuries.
Another grew up to be a lovely, sensible woman who went to college.

 

Edited Friday at 09:41 PM by shapeshifter

[Silver-hyren]

This show really wants to have it both ways with Ellie.  In the first episodes, they would talk about her like she was a saint that had addiction thrust upon her.  Then they started dropping in dialogue implying she was a habitual, long time drug user (while still keeping up with the MWBSP stuff - why would she be so proud??).  This week they showed that her addiction caused a major rift between her and her parents, and that Alfie had been born addicted to opioids. 

I'm starting to wonder if Mattie's determination to take down the law firm and Welbrexa is to appease her own unacknowledged guilt over Ellie's overdose.  (I don't believe Ellie suicided.  I think the stress of losing custody of Alfie caused her to relapse.  She admitted to being clean for only one month instead of the three she'd claimed; for all we know, it was really only two weeks.)  In which case, Edwin is enabling a very unhealthy and dangerous action.  Both of them have had some unresolved trauma over Ellie's death, and this episode shows just how deep that trauma goes.  

[cmahorror]

Here is how I saw it - Mattie said Ellie could have daily supervised visits and, if she was clean for a full year, then custody of Alfie again. She did not attempt to cut Ellie out of Alfie's life, just make the situation controlled so that Alfie remained safe.

Ellie was an addict. Unfortunately, she lied often about being clean, leading to her son being born addicted and getting seriously injured while in her care. While Alfie may seem okay now, the effects of being born addicted can affected him throughout his life. Mattie couldn't force her daughter to stop taking drugs but she could protect her grandson from being a casualty of the addiction.

I'm sorry, a grown woman burning her hand on a tea kettle is far different than a toddler doing the same thing. Did Ellie start the kettle and forget to turn it off? How did Alfie climb up to the counter and get a hold the kettle? Was Ellie passed out from the drugs so she didn't notice the little boy? I get it, kids are quick, but with a hot stove or kettle going, you need to be paying attention. What happens next time? Does Alfie get tangled up in a curtain cord and accidentally hurt himself that way? Manage to open the door and run out in the street and get hit by a car? Have another seizure and hit his head? These are all real possibilities and the disease had Ellie so far in its grip that she could not see that she was a danger to her own son and needed help. What if Ellie had overdosed with Alfie in the house and he was left alone for hours or even days by himself? 

I am not trying to be a Debbie Downer or sound heartless because I do understand that addiction is a disease however, Mattie's decision to go for custody of Alfie was her looking out for her grandson's health and safety. It is sad that Ellie could not figure out a way to fight that addiction, even with (as I understood it) the promise of seeing her son every day and the hope of regaining custody, but I cannot fault Mattie for protecting her grandson. 

[seacliffsal]

So many great insights and perspectives in this thread.  I thank you and acknowledge that you all were far more eloquent than I in expressing these viewpoints.

As for the custody case in this episode, I didn't like either parent and felt that the boy was most relaxed and at peace while talking with the court appointed counselor.  

Sarah should have been fired well before this episode when she went after Mattie and turned against Billy.  This episode?  No partner is going to accept Sarah's inappropriateness while interacting with staff or potential witnesses like the neighbor.  There is no way she is a brilliant enough lawyer to override her inappropriate responses and actions.

I felt like this episode was the start of a retcon of the overall plot.  Perhaps the writers realized their original premise was flawed and could not be sustained over time.  But it seems they are making Ellie's and her parents far more complicated than originally thought.  It also seemed like they are changing the timeline.  It used to be '10 years' but seems to be '14 years' now.  And, they are showing more divisions between Mattie and Edwin.  She is definitely the 'mover' who has caused them to uproot and relocated, allow Alfie to focus on revenge while concurrently breaking laws and missing school, go undercover to expose who knows what, etc., etc.

Oh, and to add, the basic premise in the premier was that Alfie chose the name Matlock because he used to watch the show with his mom and they enjoyed it.  Not so much if he was taken away from his mom while still an infant (or toddler).  Did we then lose the whole reason this show is called Matlock?

Edited Saturday at 02:07 PM by seacliffsal

[MissLucas]

Apparently I got something wrong about Matty and Ellie's dialogue. I thought Matty said Ellie could have daily supervised visits now and regain full custody  after a year of staying clean - that's why she suggested Ellie to keep the teddy as a reminder.

I don't think it makes a big difference because with addiction there are so many unknown variables at play that making the 'right' decision is nearly impossible. The crucial point of those flashbacks for me was that they do some heavy lifting in explaining Matty's scorched-earth approach to her quest. As others have pointed out she's clearly feeling some guilt over Ellie's suicide - she more or less admitted to that while talking Paloma down. And it really doesn't matter whether those are feelings are justified or not - they are clearly there and add fuel to her rage.

And it's also clear that hubby was not okay with how Matty pushed for sole custody. It doesn't matter whether it was the right move or not - what matters is that she pushed his concerns aside every time he wanted to talk about them. And so he decided to hide that email. Not the right decision either but understandable for me. (Less understandable is why the question of Alfie's father never came up during the custody hearings but I'm not lawyer so maybe that's not unusual.)

I rolled my eyes at Sarah's subplot. Clearly the writers decided that this episode was too heavy and needed a bit of comic relief. Didn't work for me. Also not working: Olympia behaving like a 14 year old when she got that misdirected text message. Showing it to Matty giggling 'What does that mean?' was completely OOC.

As for Billy and Sarah sweeping Paloma's house. That was odd, the firm needs a Kalinda! And I don't think things will end good for Billy dating Sarah's nemesis. I also did not care for his high and mighty attitude but I admit I am biased.

Also annoyed that 'the pen' was brought up but then got lost in a marital shouting match.

 

Edited Saturday at 05:53 PM by MissLucas

[eel2178]

On 2/21/2025 at 12:57 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

This episode brought some definition to Ellie, which on one level I appreciate. But on another, it muddles things further.

Because this episode creates a very different narrative than I'd understood us to be under. The notion seemed to be that Ellie was addicted to drugs and had an accidental overdose because they opioids are so addictive.

Maybe I've got the wrong impression, but it seemed like Ellie was very much on the right track of kicking her habit. It very much seems like they are outright saying that losing the custody battle may have caused her to commit suicide, particularly with how soon her death was after losing. And if that's the case, the crusade against opioids is even more misguided than I originally thought it was.

It does make the guilt Matty feels about her daughter's death and her role in it more real though.

Also, confirming that Alfie was born addicted is something. I was like oh, snap.

I think Matty wants to believe it was an accidental overdose while the evidence is actually pointing to it being suicide. She refuses to accept that her daughter played a huge role in her own addiction, thinking only Big Pharma and the law firm are to blame.

Even though it has been more than a decade, Matty seems to still be exhibiting the earlier stages of grief: Denial, Depression and Anger while occasionally moving into Bargaining but still being a long way from Acceptance. She delusionally believes that getting convictions of guilt in the courts is what is going to get her Acceptance, so she is going be in for a huge disappointment if she ever does get to confront Wellbrexa and Julian with her evidence (real or imagined).

As has already been stated, why aren't she and her husband in counseling instead of on this crusade to find someone to vilify? Every week, they seem to be moving farther and farther down the rabbit hole of grief rather than doing something that is truly productive to help resolve it.

[shapeshifter]

31 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

As has already been stated, why aren't she and her husband in counseling instead of on this crusade to find someone to vilify? Every week, they seem to be moving farther and farther down the rabbit hole of grief rather than doing something that is truly productive to help resolve it.

Even if this is mostly a rhetorical question, my answer to why Mattie and Edwin don’t see a therapist instead of playing Secret Agent, is because Kathy Bates is arguably most famous for her role in Misery, so there was likely a mandate from the producers and/or Paramount+ to integrate the essence of Misery’s Annie Wilkes into Mattie.🤷🏻

BTW, I’ve read about Misery, and I do not plan to ever watch it.

[chessiegal]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

there was likely a mandate from the producers

IMDb lists Kathy Bates as one of several executive producers of this show, so she must have a say in how things roll.

[snarktini]

On 2/20/2025 at 10:20 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

In a real highly competitive law firm, Sarah would not be getting good performance reviews.  New associates are supposed to be devoted to their work and unobtrusive.  Sarah is highly obtrusive and annoying. 

Yes. And, when she snapped at Billy that Mattie couldn't think he was a BETTER lawyer than her that really irked me. She may have legal knowledge that Billy doesn't have (and we don't even know that) but she has no social/emotional intelligence. Soft skills can make you better and more effective in a role than someone with more technical skills.

Olympia needs to be more clear about things like this, if she's the "mentor". But she also needs to create more distance -- mentoring isn't something that happens all day every day. It's not job shadowing. Sarah is exhausting and tone deaf. She thinks she is on the fast track and she is not.

On 2/21/2025 at 1:09 PM, Silver-hyren said:

I'm starting to wonder if Mattie's determination to take down the law firm and Welbrexa is to appease her own unacknowledged guilt over Ellie's overdose.

This desperate and wild ploy does make more sense now, with this new info. Her guilt is driving her.

On 2/21/2025 at 2:22 PM, cmahorror said:

Here is how I saw it - Mattie said Ellie could have daily supervised visits and, if she was clean for a full year, then custody of Alfie again. She did not attempt to cut Ellie out of Alfie's life, just make the situation controlled so that Alfie remained safe.

This is 100% how I understood it as well. I don't see it as ambiguous.

[christie]

3 hours ago, snarktini said:

Yes. And, when she snapped at Billy that Mattie couldn't think he was a BETTER lawyer than her that really irked me. She may have legal knowledge that Billy doesn't have (and we don't even know that) but she has no social/emotional intelligence. Soft skills can make you better and more effective in a role than someone with more technical skills.

Olympia needs to be more clear about things like this, if she's the "mentor". But she also needs to create more distance -- mentoring isn't something that happens all day every day. It's not job shadowing. Sarah is exhausting and tone deaf. She thinks she is on the fast track and she is not.

This desperate and wild ploy does make more sense now, with this new info. Her guilt is driving her.

This is 100% how I understood it as well. I don't see it as ambiguous.

I took it to mean that if Ellie is clean for a year then she can have supervised visits so not unambiguous at all.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Let's go to the conversation blow by blow between Matty and Ellie so I can map out where there IMO is ambiguity:

E: Please don't take him away, Mom.  You're going to destroy our relationship. [Note, I am assuming by "our" Ellie means her relationship with Alfie. But she could also mean her relationship with Matty]

M: Drugs are destroying your relationship.

E: I'm clean.

M: Three months? [Matty's expression is clear disbelief and builds up from the court exchange where she suspected this of bullshit]

E: One. Ever since the burn. [Matty interjects a look like, really?] But Mom, I promise. You've scared me enough. I'm done! I'm going to meetings...

M: Great. When you've put together a year...

E: (interrupts her) You can test me every single day

M: You can have supervised visitation every single day.

I took this originally as Matty responding to her offer of daily drug tests by explaining, hey, no worries, that Ellie could already have supervised daily visits now. But the other way it could be taken is that Matty was just finishing her thought and ignoring Ellie's plea: 'When you've put together a year (of sobriety), you can have supervised visitation every single day."

Ellie clearly sees to take it the second way and then pleads for Matty to give Alfie his lovie.

It is clearly symbolic to Ellie of her love. And when Matty declines, Ellie sees that being further shut out, even though Matty may have meant keep the lovie as inspiration to stay clean.

Edited 23 hours ago by Chicago Redshirt

[andromeda331]

I do think that's what Matty meant with the lovie. To encourage Ellie to keep clean but I don't think that's what Ellie thought. I agree I think Ellie thought she was being shut out. Her mom won't let even give the lovie from Ellie to Alfie. 

[AnimeMania]

I have no ideal why Matty didn't let Ellie see Alfie after she came all that way. There was no point in their relationship where Ellie intentionally tried to hurt Alfie, so I don't know why Matty would keep Ellie and Alfie apart, since the visits are supervised. I would think that Matty would like to see and take care of Ellie just as much as Ellie would want to see and take care of Alfie.

[Zaffy]

I like that the show is not very kind with its main hero and also points that things in life are not black or white. The whole Ellie situation was indeed heartbreaking and I am pretty sure by now their crusade it is their way to avoid the bitter truths and the trauma that followed Ellie's death.

In other news, I hope Billy Sarah (and why not Simone) will leave  to create their own firm and we never get to see them again in this show. Every moment with these two annoys me. I am not even sure what they are supposed to be in this show. Comic relief? Just filler time? In any case I think we would be much better without them. Sarah has become a caricature.

Does Julian has the worst hairstyle? it is so bad it distracts me. Honestly, I expect his hair to suddenly get alive and strangle him or something... or start talking to him like some kind of an evil alter ego. Maybe it was the evil hair that did the opioids cover up. Yep, that wouldn't surprise me! After all it seems it is fed with a lot of hairspray... the evil hair is addicted!

[mostlylurking]

On 2/22/2025 at 11:52 AM, MissLucas said:

Apparently I got something wrong about Matty and Ellie's dialogue. I thought Matty said Ellie could have daily supervised visits now and regain full custody  after a year of staying clean - that's why she suggested Ellie to keep the teddy as a reminder.

That’s what I heard as well. And I thought that sounded reasonable.  Ellie had already harmed her child severely at least twice that we heard about - first with him being born addicted to drugs and second when he burned his hand.  If Alfie had stayed in Ellie’s care, he might have been the one who died.  And Ellie did not look ok at the hearing.  If she was only sober for one month the drugs may have physically been out of her system but her mental health would still be in a precarious place.

Even so, I can still see why they blame Pharma for Ellie’s death.  Losing custody of Alfie may have sent Ellie over the edge, but I guess they blame Pharma for the drugs having been so readily available that she was able to get addicted and then intentionally or unintentionally overdose.

Edwin was harsh, but it’s an honest response.  Even if rationally he knows it wasn’t Matty’s fault, I can see him blaming her on an emotional level.  It sucks, but it happens.  He shouldn’t have lied about still,having the email though.

I just can’t stand Jason Ritter’s hair on the show.  He has an extremely large head and that slicked back helmet hair is doing nothing for him.  And this is an unpopular opinion but this was probably the first episode I’ve liked Sarah.  I thought it was funny how she was clinging to Olympia’s every word and Olympia was trying so hard to be diplomatic with her.  It was comical and cringey at the same time.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I have no ideal why Matty didn't let Ellie see Alfie after she came all that way. There was no point in their relationship where Ellie intentionally tried to hurt Alfie, so I don't know why Matty would keep Ellie and Alfie apart, since the visits are supervised. I would think that Matty would like to see and take care of Ellie just as much as Ellie would want to see and take care of Alfie.

I assume, but we don't know for a fact, that Ellie never intentionally tried to hurt Alfie. Time will tell as we delve more into the backstory with Ellie and her relationships with Matty and Alfie.

But based on what we've been shown/told thus far and some reasonable speculation from that:

Matty's mom was an addict and so Matty has been exposed to addict behavior her entire life.

Ellie's addiction affected Alfie at birth, having him be addicted to drugs and his survival be uncertain.

Ellie's addiction contributed to Alfie getting burned just recently.

Ellie's addiction had Matty and Edwin going to drug dens looking for her.

Ellie has lied to Matty in the past about getting clean and had gone through rehab.

Ellie had her attorney claim that she had been clean for three months (and may have committed perjury about it herself).

Ellie confessed that was a lie and she had only been clean for one because of the accident where she let Alfie get burned.

From this, I extrapolate:

Matty might think that 100 percent no-contact with Alfie would be best for both Alfie and for Ellie now.

Matty sees Ellie as manipulative and untrustworthy (gee, I wonder where she got those traits from?). 

BTW, on another note, I would imagine that daily drug tests would be expensive but there'd also be some level of lag. If Matty tests Ellie today, it will take time for those results to be processed and to show if Ellie has drugs in her system. Let's say it's two days' turnaround. That's two supervised visits that Ellie would be under the influence for. And supervision isn't necessarily a guarantee that Ellie won't go off the rails. Even with supervised visits, one can't tell if Ellie will do something large or small to cause a setback for Alfie. In this very episode, Paloma (who as far as we know, doesn't have any drug dependency issues or mental health issues) flipped out and barricaded herself in the very law firm that was trying to help her retain custody at a time when she was supposed to be in front of a judge arguing for that very custody. 

If she could have supervised visits daily, Ellie might be incentivized to be satisfied with those and not clean up her life. She'd get all the good parts of raising Alfie like playing with him and taking cute pictures of him but none of the responsibility like caring for him, changing diapers, taking him to the hospital, paying for his needs, etc. That actually might sound like a sweet spot for Addict Ellie. 

Matty might rationalize that to get the good parts of being a mom back, Ellie might stick to the program and stay sober.  

Matty may also be assuming that Ellie isn't capable of going a year sober at this point. Having Ellie regularly in their lives at this point might be (in Matty's eyes and maybe in reality too) a hard thing to process for Alfie. It might be better to just have a clean break.

1 hour ago, mostlylurking said:

Edwin was harsh, but it’s an honest response.  Even if rationally he knows it wasn’t Matty’s fault, I can see him blaming her on an emotional level.  It sucks, but it happens.  

I'm not convinced it wasn't Matty's fault. In fact, based on what we've been shown, I believe it is at least as much Matty's fault as Big Pharma. Ellie is IMO most at fault. 

Onto another topic:

I like Sarah, or at least think the character has potential. A sharp, semi-antagonistic woman who contrasts with Matty both as to age, experience, approach to truth-telling (brutally honest with no filter as opposed to Matty's brutally dishonest with multiple filters) is a good place for a character to be.

I think that they needed to flesh her out so she seems more like a 3D person rather than a vehicle for comic relief or tension. They started to do that the other episode by talking about how she was adopted and dealt with her own aging grandparent(s?). 

I think that they still should flesh her out some more. Like others have said, it strikes me as odd that a person who apparently graduated from a top-tier law school, who is in therapy, and who has some performing arts background, would be so oblivious about interpersonal dynamics and office politics to pick an unnecessary fight with the boss's bestie, would blatantly tell her office husband "I'm a better lawyer than you," and would steal his cologne as a prank.

I'm not as sold as Billy, but maybe that is more that they have yet to flesh him out beyond people-pleaser, insecure about his skills, had a long-time fiancee, has a cop mom and a bunch of sisters.

[Nashville]

On 2/23/2025 at 12:28 AM, eel2178 said:

I think Matty wants to believe it was an accidental overdose while the evidence is actually pointing to it being suicide.

One potentially significant point on this: be it intentional or accidental, Ellie’s OD happened before the judge had formally transferred custody to her parents - so unless Ellie was already certain before the fact there was zero chance of her retaining custody, her OD was most likely unintentional.

[shapeshifter]

On 2/23/2025 at 1:28 AM, eel2178 said:

I think Matty wants to believe it was an accidental overdose while the evidence is actually pointing to it being suicide.

I can't personally recall knowing if an overdose of an acquaintance, neighbor, celebrity, or even a relative was definitively accidental or suicide. 
So maybe the writers intended to make it vague?

 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 2/23/2025 at 6:36 PM, snarktini said:

Olympia needs to be more clear about things like this, if she's the "mentor". But she also needs to create more distance -- mentoring isn't something that happens all day every day. It's not job shadowing. Sarah is exhausting and tone deaf. She thinks she is on the fast track and she is not.

 

4 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

 I thought it was funny how she was clinging to Olympia’s every word and Olympia was trying so hard to be diplomatic with her.

Olympia's relationship with Sarah makes her appear weak, not like someone competing for a partnership.  She can be an empathetic mentor without being a push-over. 

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

E: Please don't take him away, Mom.  You're going to destroy our relationship. [Note, I am assuming by "our" Ellie means her relationship with Alfie. But she could also mean her relationship with Matty]

M: Drugs are destroying your relationship.

I has to be Ellie's relationship with Alfie, or Mattie would have said " Drugs are destroying our relationship."

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I took this originally as Matty responding to her offer of daily drug tests by explaining, hey, no worries, that Ellie could already have supervised daily visits now. But the other way it could be taken is that Matty was just finishing her thought and ignoring Ellie's plea: 'When you've put together a year (of sobriety), you can have supervised visitation every single day."

This is how I took it.  Ellie interrupted Matty's sentence.  But now I see why people understood it the other way. 

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I like Sarah, or at least think the character has potential. A sharp, semi-antagonistic woman who contrasts with Matty both as to age, experience, approach to truth-telling (brutally honest with no filter . . . .

I don't see how a lowly associate, and especially a female one, who is "brutally honest with no filter" could advance with those traits, unless there is a partner with those same exact traits who wants to mentor her.

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Like others have said, it strikes me as odd that a person who apparently graduated from a top-tier law school, who is in therapy, and who has some performing arts background, would be so oblivious about interpersonal dynamics and office politics to pick an unnecessary fight with the boss's bestie, would blatantly tell her office husband "I'm a better lawyer than you," and would steal his cologne as a prank.

Exactly.

 

[mostlylurking]

I am not seeing how Ellie’s overdose, intentional or not, was Matty’s fault. From the flashbacks, we see Matty and Edwin doing the best they can to help Ellie even going to drug dens giving people food in exchange for information, etc.. but at the end of the day, Ellie was an adult. She made her own decisions. Alfie on the other hand was a baby. He was completely helpless and needed 24/7 care.  I do understand how in grief Edwin might sometimes blame Matty, but I still feel they did the right thing. I don’t feel like they were not trying to rip Ellie out of Alfie‘s life, but she was in no condition to be his primary caregiver.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, mostlylurking said:

I am not seeing how Ellie’s overdose, intentional or not, was Matty’s fault. From the flashbacks, we see Matty and Edwin doing the best they can to help Ellie even going to drug dens giving people food in exchange for information, etc.. but at the end of the day, Ellie was an adult. She made her own decisions. Alfie on the other hand was a baby. He was completely helpless and needed 24/7 care.  I do understand how in grief Edwin might sometimes blame Matty, but I still feel they did the right thing. I don’t feel like they were not trying to rip Ellie out of Alfie‘s life, but she was in no condition to be his primary caregiver.

People's mileage will vary. But at least arguably, Matty's tough love approach and insistence on full custody/no visitation triggered Ellie to relapse/overdose.

One possible interpretation: The exchange with Matty left Ellie in despair, so she wanted to shut out the pain and depression from losing her kid, took drugs to numb the pain and she accidentally overdosed.

Another possible interpretation: The exchange with Matty and losing the ability to see her son for a year made her either in despair or anger commit suicide.

While in either of these scenarios, Ellie would ultimately be responsible for taking the drugs, it seems fair to me to question whether Matty deserves some of the responsibility for triggering her. And it seems Matty does blame herself a little -- it's all but said out loud that her going to war over Alfie was the one thing she wishes she could take back every single day.

Under the circumstances, Matty would almost be a monster if she never thought, "If I hadn't taken as hard of a line, would my daughter still be alive? Could I have taken another approach that would have kept Alfie safe and gotten Ellie the help she needed?"

It's clear that they had good intentions, but even without the power of hindsight, was going for full custody really the best option?

Especially as it appears the Kingstons had plenty of wealth and were already about retirement age. Surely they could have had shared custody, gotten Elliie live-in help to help protect Alfie and keep her clean, had a little faith in her.

All those might be pipe dreams, and maybe seeking full custody was still the best option, given how messed up Ellie might have been. But it seems like all this should haunt Matty - and in fact does.