S47.E14: The Last Stand

[ljenkins782]

33 minutes ago, Katie111 said:

Totally random but why did they suddenly all look so clean at the FTC?  Especially Rachel's hair.  And Sue's face suddenly looked normal again.  Do they get a shower before the FTC?  And I don't know why but it totally bothered me that Sam and Rachel were wearing the exact same shade of ugly yellow.  

They really did look strikingly clean, Sue looked like she'd not only finally cleaned her face but like she'd had her Botox refreshed somehow, that forehead was smooth as could be. 

Didn't Sam and Rachel start out on the yellow tribe, I think they must have brought or were given those shades of yellow, but again, they'd been so dirty until this past episode that it hadn't stood out. 

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When Jeff was giving Sue the stats on women over 50 in the game and got to the number who made it to FTC, I was thinking, yeah, but they were dragged there as goats, but fact-checking myself and actually no. Kim Johnson won final immunity in Africa and voted out Lex to bring Ethan with her, Lil Morris won final immunity in Pearl Islands and voted out Fairplay to bring Sandra,

Man, those early Survivor seasons had some wild decision-making at the end. Lex was less obnoxious in Africa than he was in All Stars, but still a better choice to bring to FTC. And imagine giving up a million dollars just to deny FairPlay $100k, crazy. 

And on that note, for all the credit Sandra gets as a 2-time winner, she could have so easily been a forgotten 3rd placer if Lill hadn't made such an inexplicable choice for FTC.

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All that said, I’ll probably remember Rachel more than I do Gabler and Erica (winners of 2 seasons I forgot even happened).  

this is why I can't get worked up about Rachel not caring about her Survivor legacy or whatever. I doubt I could name more than a handful of contestants from the last...20 seasons, maybe? Aside from the returning players seasons, most of these seasons blend together and even the winners are lost to my memory. So good for her for playing the game to win the game and not to become a reality tv character or whatever. 

[AntFTW]

For a moment, I thought Sam had a chance because Sam was doing a good job at selling himself.

Of the three, Rachel played the better game and was the more deserving winner, but it seemed like Sam was smooth with his answers and talking his way to winning.

[KeithJ]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

For a moment, I thought Sam had a chance because Sam was doing a good job at selling himself.

Of the three, Rachel played the better game and was the more deserving winner, but it seemed like Sam was smooth with his answers and talking his way to winning.

He may have been a smooth talker but the jury knew he was full of crap. When Rachel brought up her spying on them all at the beach after Caroline's vote out, Sam said that conversation on the beach was a ruse.  A ruse for who?  They didn't know Rachel was listening and their plan was to vote out Rachel. It didn't make any sense.

[watch2much]

I can't get over how fixated Sue was on the twiddledie or whatever it was, comment. she even brought it up at reunion.  I've always associated it with closeness of two people not intelligence.  well, Kyle got his revenge, whether he  planned it or not, by giving Sam a vote.  I did feel sorry for Sam who endured Teeney's catharsis at his expense. He was anything but the jock who won everything.

[PaperTree]

12 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

He may have been a smooth talker but the jury knew he was full of crap. When Rachel brought up her spying on them all at the beach after Caroline's vote out, Sam said that conversation on the beach was a ruse.  A ruse for who?  They didn't know Rachel was listening and their plan was to vote out Rachel. It didn't make any sense.

Sure Sam.  Exactly.  Then they all voted for Rachel.  Most of the jury was there and watched it.  Rachel's spy move was brilliant.

[KeithJ]

5 minutes ago, watch2much said:

I can't get over how fixated Sue was on the twiddledie or whatever it was, comment. she even brought it up at reunion.

Her friends and family better never do anything that upsets her.  She can't seem to let go of anything.

[PaperTree]

They also should put up partitions or something and not allow players to look at other's puzzles or whatever.

I suppose they could justify it with some "anything to survive" crap, but to me it's cheating.

Same with rooting through other's bags.

What if one were dumb enough to leave an idol in their bag and somebody finds it.  Who does it belong to?  I'm against stealing, too.

[LadyChatts]

4 minutes ago, PaperTree said:

They also should put up partitions or something and not allow players to look at other's puzzles or whatever.

I suppose they could justify it with some "anything to survive" crap, but to me it's cheating.

Same with rooting through other's bags.

What if one were dumb enough to leave an idol in their bag and somebody finds it.  Who does it belong to?  I'm against stealing, too.

I asked this question about idols and advantages before, and my understanding is when someone finds it first it is theirs.  So if someone found Rachel's idol in her bag, they couldn't take it from her.  Corinne talked about the idol hunt she went on with Malcolm in S26.  Even though they got to the idol roughly at the same time, because he grabbed it first it was technically his even though they were looking for it and found it together.  And Cirie tried taking Sarah's legacy advantage in S34 but couldn't do it (Sarah had given it to her to hang onto, and Cirie was going to try and use it against her).  But Jeff said she had to give it back.  

  

[fishcakes]

1 hour ago, SG429 said:

Didn't Thor also toss out a line about Jon Favreau (#1 boot)?

Yes, a wistful, "gone too soon." 😔

[blackwing]

It took me all season, but I've finally figured out who Sam reminds me of... the actor Dominic Cooper, who played Sophie's boyfriend in the Mamma Mia movies and the young Howard Stark in one of the Captain America movies and the Agent Carter TV series.  Brown hair and slight beard, brown eyes, same smile.

Rachel played a good game and is a deserving winner, but I don't think she's as outstanding as the jury thought she was.  They gave her softball questions.  I was most disappointed in Sol, he didn't even ask her about him saving her and then she promptly voting him out at first opportunity.

I think Sam was a much more deserving winner.  He definitely won the "outlast" portion of the game.  He was almost always a target, he was voted for more times than any of the finalists, and he somehow found a way to survive.  He adapted his game and worked with different people to further his game.  I thought he spoke very well during FTC.

What I was most surprised about was that Gabe and Caroline didn't vote for Sue.  For all they talked about how loyal she was, they weren't loyal to her.  If loyalty was her #1 strength in the game, why didn't they vote for her?

I can understand Sierra not voting for Sam, because she was voted out so long ago.  Not surprised at all that Genevieve would vote for Rachel.  In her mind, if she can't win, she's going to annoint a strong professional woman in her 30s just like her.

16 hours ago, Skooma said:

She deserved it, sure.  But she got a lot of lucky breaks too.  I liked Sam way more.  He did have to scramble all the way through the merge portion of the game where for some reason he was viewed as a big threat and never got handed help out of the blue or in some french fries.

15 hours ago, GenerationX said:

I found myself rooting for Sam.  He adapted and pivoted well, while being entertaining in interviews.  He played a far more active game than Rachel, who didn't have to do anywhere near the scrambling Sam did due to her immunity wins and advantages.  She certainly played well and deserved the win; I just had more appreciation for his game.

Glad to see other Sam fans.  I definitely appreciated his game a lot more.  Rachel was dominant in the immunity challenges but as Sol pointed out, she was often on the wrong side of the vote, which implied that she wasn't in control of the game as much as she thought she was.

14 hours ago, violet and green said:

My heart sank when I saw that final immunity challenge - with a freaking puzzle at the end. It really couldn't have been any more obvious who was going to win the challenge, and hence the season.

Jeff's intro to the episode, also, was so "Rachel, Rachel, Rachel, and the rest" that it rather took any excitement out of the equation. So I hoped there'd be a surprise event that overturned her obvious run to the finish... Nope.

I too came round to rooting for Sam. Great moment when he won the fire making. I watched the jury's reactions three times. (Sol, sitting there, impassive, stoic, unmoved!) I thought he did really well in the final tribal, too.

Kind of a dull ending to the season. Operation Italy was the peak, and then it was very predictable from there on in.

Yep, this is how I felt... it was a slow march to the end to crown Rachel.  I'm so sick of the jigsaw puzzles.  Seemingly half of the challenges this season had jigsaw puzzles.  Rachel of course is the queen of puzzles, and we saw in earlier episodes how bad Sam is at them, so no surprise that she won the final immunity.

How about a different kind of puzzle that isn't a jigsaw?  I'd love to see some kind of memory challenge like they always have on TAR.  What about a numbers puzzle or a word puzzle?  I know production loves the jigsaw puzzles because they are big and splashy and something that can be easily seen on TV, but I think it's boring how there are so many of them.

7 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

My view of Sue was totally affirmed when she stated that she had lied about her age and then proclaimed that she played an honest and loyal game.  Alrighty.  My understanding of 'honest' differs from hers...  I guess she also forgot to mention how strong she was at holding a grudge...

As a teacher of several (several, not seven former survivor contestant whose name I can't even remember) decades, I don't understand Teeny's statement related to teachers asking certain kinds of students to move desks.  ALL of my students were expected to move their own desks (high school students).  And, way to totally stereotype another person (Sam).  Lack of tolerance much?  Maybe she has just never learned that one needs to look beyond the superficial in order to see the person.

Of course, I am totally dismayed that both Teeny and Sam never bothered to learn how to make a fire until they were forced to make a fire.  How can one not volunteer to make the fire at every opportunity in order to prepare for final four?  Just does not make sense to me.

Although I think Rachel deserved the win, there were a few times I was surprised by some of her statements.  She really seemed to discount the 'luck' factor of her game as well as the crucial role Sol played in sending that one advantage to her.

Yep... Sue saying that she played the game by being truthful and honest.  Just seconds after admitting she lied to all of them about her age.  I wanted her to explain why she felt the need to lie.  Because she thought they'd vote her off if she admitted she was 58?  If she's 58 and able to compete physically and contributing, they would rather vote off someone who is dead weight.

I didn't understand where Teeny's "fuck you" to Sam when they were in the water and he said he was excited to make fire was coming from.  Then at her vote out episode she talked about how handsome Sam is and how all the girls would have liked him in school and the teacher picked him to move desks around.  I didn't fully get that... was she saying the teacher was as obsessed with Sam's looks and body as all the girls and wanted to see his muscles in action?

After she said that, I figured out that all of Teeny's dislike of Sam boils down to simple and petty jealousy.  Sam is everything that Teeny wanted or wants to be, a handsome, smart and strong man?

I don't get Teeny.  She says she is nonbinary and has identity issues.  But then considers herself a woman when she said she wanted an all-women final.  And for as much as people here have taken great lengths to continually refer to her as "they/them"... I am pretty sure I heard some of the jury members refer to her as "she/her" last night.  And they would know her better than we as viewers would.  So it seems like everyone including Teeny treats her as a woman?

4 hours ago, fishcakes said:

A not-at-all surprising ending, but still disappointing for me. Rachel deserved it, compared to the rest of the F4, but I found her insufferable last night. It's particularly a letdown to me because she was someone who I thought, at the beginning of the season, was going to be one of my favorites. She's just become so full of herself in the last few episodes and last night especially, saying things like, "everything I do, I do with incredible determination," which is a fine thing to say about someone else, but not oneself. And then when Sam gave that emotional answer at FTC and she felt she had to match it, so she talked about how accomplished, yet humble, she is in real life and how her husband is the best whatever in the world but has no confidence and how she realized that [start holding back non-existent tears here] is actually a description of herself. GTFO. I was also surprised that her statement that she was loyal to everyone and that no one was loyal to her until she found Sue didn't lose her at least a couple of votes because that statement is only true if they were playing Bizarro Survivor.

Best moment for me was Andy pointing out to Rachel how she doesn't think Ben or Mike were deserving winners and how does she reconcile playing the same game they did and her face when she realized he was right.

Agree that Rachel didn't acknolwledge getting lucky at all or how she was fortunate she got gifted the advantage by Sol or bought the right food item.  According to her, she won the game because she made it happen.

I particularly hated how she and Sue ganged up on Sam and dismissed the fake idol that he and Genevieve came up with.  They totally fell for it, and for them to say "it didn't matter".  It mattered.  It sent Caroline home.  If they didn't think it was real, they wouldn't have split their votes and Sam or Genevieve would have gone home.

I thought it was great that Andy pointed that out, I was convinced Andy was going to vote for Sam because of her answer, but no.

[blackwing]

57 minutes ago, watch2much said:

I can't get over how fixated Sue was on the twiddledie or whatever it was, comment. she even brought it up at reunion.  I've always associated it with closeness of two people not intelligence.  well, Kyle got his revenge, whether he  planned it or not, by giving Sam a vote.  I did feel sorry for Sam who endured Teeney's catharsis at his expense. He was anything but the jock who won everything.

I wish someone had explained to her that it's Tweedledee.  Not Tweedle-lee-dee.  She talked about how she's not dumb and then she says that.  I wonder if she has addressed in any media articles the montage of her saying "I hate Kyle".  On a regular live reunion show taped after the episodes aired, I'm sure Jeffy would have asked her about it.

Sam seemed almost embarrassed when he won the fire challenge and Teeny characterised him as the big handsome jock who won once again and has it so easy in life.  Sam said on the show that he isn't and wasn't a jock growing up.  Pretty sure he said he was a theater kid.  So for her to imply that he uses his looks and strength to get everything he wants does him a great disservice.  Considering we saw how much he had to fight on this show to survive.

[KeithJ]

1 minute ago, blackwing said:

I wish someone had explained to her that it's Tweedledee.  Not Tweedle-lee-dee.  She talked about how she's not dumb and then she says that.  I wonder if she has addressed in any media articles the montage of her saying "I hate Kyle". 

Kind of:

https://parade.com/tv/sue-smey-survivor-47-runner-up-finale-interview

[Tango64]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I didn't understand where Teeny's "fuck you" to Sam when they were in the water and he said he was excited to make fire was coming from.  Then at her vote out episode she talked about how handsome Sam is and how all the girls would have liked him in school and the teacher picked him to move desks around.  I didn't fully get that... was she saying the teacher was as obsessed with Sam's looks and body as all the girls and wanted to see his muscles in action?

After she said that, I figured out that all of Teeny's dislike of Sam boils down to simple and petty jealousy.  Sam is everything that Teeny wanted or wants to be, a handsome, smart and strong man?

I don't get Teeny.  She says she is nonbinary and has identity issues.  But then considers herself a woman when she said she wanted an all-women final.  And for as much as people here have taken great lengths to continually refer to her as "they/them"... I am pretty sure I heard some of the jury members refer to her as "she/her" last night.  And they would know her better than we as viewers would.  So it seems like everyone including Teeny treats her as a woman?

I was a big fan of Teeny all the way through, but towards the end she revealed some inner issues that were ugly and sad. She seemed to pin a lot of struggles with self doubt and her own identity on Sam, who was doing nothing to earn that kind of enmity. He wasn't even a particularly hunky alpha male type who was winning all the challenges and personifying glorious manhood by moving the desks around, whatever that meant. He was just there.

I wish her well, but that behavior isn't appealing.

[fishcakes]

17 minutes ago, Tango64 said:

personifying glorious manhood by moving the desks around

It's been like ten minutes and I can't stop laughing at this line.

[bankerchick]

17 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

Rachel was only there for the money and this is not something I respect.

Why else would she be there?  I personally have no use for, and fast forward through, 'I just want to prove to myself that even though (whatever my particular perceived challenge is) I can do this and I want to show everyone with this boring issue that they too can be successful.'  Oh boo hoo.  Said fast-forwarding happened a lot last night.

10 hours ago, Katie111 said:

And Sue's face suddenly looked normal again. 

I did notice on a few occasions last night, a brief flash of what Sue probably looked like before she put all that filler crap in her face.  If she'd allowed herself to age normally she probably still would have been a very attractive 59 year-old.

Edited December 20 by bankerchick

[ljenkins782]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

Rachel played a good game and is a deserving winner, but I don't think she's as outstanding as the jury thought she was.  They gave her softball questions.  I was most disappointed in Sol, he didn't even ask her about him saving her and then she promptly voting him out at first opportunity.

Out of all the players this season, Sol is the one I'd most like to know in real life. The Ponderosa interviews also seem to confirm that he was a great guy to be around and he seemed to enjoy the experience all the way. His lack of bitterness on this situation is admirable, it seems like he's far less bitter about it than the viewers were. 

There can only be one winner and Rachel is it, so it was clearly the right move for her game. I'm not sure what was to be gained by asking that question, like "why didn't you save me after I saved you, I could be sitting there instead of you if you had..." I mean, I guess if he wanted to be bitter and vindictive, he could have based his vote entirely on whether or not she came up with a certain answer to that, but it wouldn't really be that illuminating for anyone else.

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Yep... Sue saying that she played the game by being truthful and honest.  Just seconds after admitting she lied to all of them about her age.  I wanted her to explain why she felt the need to lie.  Because she thought they'd vote her off if she admitted she was 58?  If she's 58 and able to compete physically and contributing, they would rather vote off someone who is dead weight.

I can understand why she felt her age would work against her right off the bat, but honestly, I think she's the one who made a bigger deal of it than necessary by putting a (fake) number on it. She was clearly older than the rest, there was no hiding that, but whether it was by 25 years or 35 years probably wasn't going to be the tipping point she thought it was. 

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I didn't understand where Teeny's "fuck you" to Sam when they were in the water and he said he was excited to make fire was coming from.  

I got what she was saying, it's a sucky situation to be the people stuck making fire while Sue got a pass to the finals, Sam's feigned enthusiasm came across as trying to intimidate her with confidence. 

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Agree that Rachel didn't acknolwledge getting lucky at all or how she was fortunate she got gifted the advantage by Sol or bought the right food item.  According to her, she won the game because she made it happen.

I didn't get the sense that she was saying her win was free from luck, but she did win 4 immunity challenges along with that luck. When Kyle does it, he's the challenge beast, but when a woman does it, she's just lucky?

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I think Sam was a much more deserving winner.  He definitely won the "outlast" portion of the game.  He was almost always a target, he was voted for more times than any of the finalists, and he somehow found a way to survive.  He adapted his game and worked with different people to further his game.  I thought he spoke very well during FTC.

He was rarely a target and the only reason he received more votes against him than his 2 FTC opponents was because Rachel was immune more often and ineligible to be voted for and nobody (except poor Kyle that one time) was voting for Sue because everyone correctly believed she wouldn't get a lot of votes to win. 

If Sam had truly been the threat he believed himself to be, he would have gone at the Sierra vote. The group found her more dangerous and in breaking up that duo, they really neutralized him. 

Edited December 19 by ljenkins782

[snarts]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

I didn't get the sense that she was saying her win was free from luck, but she did win 4 immunity challenges along with that luck. When Kyle does it, he's the challenge beast, but when a woman does it, she's just lucky?

THANK YOU! There's a reason women winners are rare, they're held to such a different standard. 

Rachel was 100% deserving. She outplayed everyone, which is why she got seven votes from the jury.

[violet and green]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wish someone had explained to her that it's Tweedledee.  Not Tweedle-lee-dee.  She talked about how she's not dumb and then she says that. 

My understanding is that Sue, like Kyle, grew up in poverty. So I guess no-one was reading Alice in Wonderland to her when she was a child.

She only heard that Kyle was saying it from Andy, who twisted it to "Tweedledee and Tweedledumber", and made it out to be a clear insult.

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wonder if she has addressed in any media articles the montage of her saying "I hate Kyle". 

I liked Kyle a lot, he was up there for most of the time as second in line to Sol as my faves of the season, but that one episode where the edit let him bang on about his family values, I was ready to throw a coconut at his head, so I can imagine it must have got particularly annoying at camp to hear that all the time. Plus he wrote her name down! Hahaha.

[Wildcard]

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Being the winner of a game with such history makes you carry a burden as well in my opinion which you can't and shouldn't deny. Rachel was only there for the money and this is not something I respect. Remember the winners of Olympic games in the ancient history only cared for the olive branch which was the only reward. Rachel with this answer does not belong in the winners' list in my view so I don't see her as one. 

This makes no sense. What was Rachel supposed to be there for? Facebook Likes? Instagram followers? To replace Jeff on the podcast? Going on Survivor for the money is much more "honorable" in my opinion than trying to jump start a career from the screen time on Survivor.  

And if you believe this train of thought, isn't Kyle just as bad? He's on the show to help his family - meaning to win money for his family. There's nothing wrong with that, but if it's good for one, it's good for the other.

Edited December 20 by Wildcard

[ljenkins782]

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

My understanding is that Sue, like Kyle, grew up in poverty. So I guess no-one was reading Alice in Wonderland to her when she was a child.

She only heard that Kyle was saying it from Andy, who twisted it to "Tweedledee and Tweedledumber", and made it out to be a clear insult.

I liked Kyle a lot, he was up there for most of the time as second in line to Sol as my faves of the season, but that one episode where the edit let him bang on about his family values, I was ready to throw a coconut at his head, so I can imagine it must have got particularly annoying at camp to hear that all the time. Plus he wrote her name down! Hahaha.

Yeah, I bet that "gave it a buck twenty" thing wore a bit thin as well. Someone wrote it on their parchment when they voted him out, so it must have been something they heard a lot. 

And I liked Kyle too, but I could spot the things that probably would have made me roll my eyes a bit if around him 24/7.

[Wildcard]

15 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

Being the winner of a game with such history makes you carry a burden as well in my opinion which you can't and shouldn't deny. Rachel was only there for the money and this is not something I respect. Remember the winners of Olympic games in the ancient history only cared for the olive branch which was the only reward. Rachel with this answer does not belong in the winners' list in my view so I don't see her as one. 

Makes so much sense. The winners of anicent Olympic games should how we judge a reality show in 2024. The difference is immeasurable, but let's go with that.

[GenerationX]

2 hours ago, Rodney said:

I feel sorry for you and other Sam fans.  It's clear to me that he had nothing -- NOTHING -- to which he could point as an accomplishment in the game.  At least not once Sierra was gone.  He was never seen as a high-priority threat because he just wasn't one.  He was more of a "whenever we get around to him" threat.  And yet several of you still seem laughably convinced that he had a game to appreciate or respect?  He had none at all, and the jury saw right through him.

There.  I said it.

I'm as big of a puzzle fan as anyone.  I have been a GAMES magazine subscriber for decades, and I once renamed a Survivor episode in a TWoP post (S4:E6): "A Night I/We Divide with Gina".  That said, I appreciate social/strategic gameplay much more than challenge/puzzle gameplay.  The former is far more difficult.  Sam didn't have a pile of challenge wins and advantages to allow him to skate through votes.

[HappyDancex2]

I was disappointed with the final challenge.  It was just another version of the same old.  I would have preferred something more skills related like the rolling balls being added to the cage or even an endurance challenge.  You can use sheer will to stand on an object or hold something up.  If you aren’t good at puzzles you won’t be good no matter what.

[princelina]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

I don't get Teeny.  She says she is nonbinary and has identity issues.  But then considers herself a woman when she said she wanted an all-women final.  And for as much as people here have taken great lengths to continually refer to her as "they/them"... I am pretty sure I heard some of the jury members refer to her as "she/her" last night.  And they would know her better than we as viewers would.  So it seems like everyone including Teeny treats her as a woman?

Well she said in her one "personal story" TH that she has come out to her family and is confused about her identity - so she's just a confused young person, but still does seem to understand that she's a woman.

[LadyChatts]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wish someone had explained to her that it's Tweedledee.  Not Tweedle-lee-dee.  She talked about how she's not dumb and then she says that.  I wonder if she has addressed in any media articles the montage of her saying "I hate Kyle".  On a regular live reunion show taped after the episodes aired, I'm sure Jeffy would have asked her about it.

Sam seemed almost embarrassed when he won the fire challenge and Teeny characterised him as the big handsome jock who won once again and has it so easy in life.  Sam said on the show that he isn't and wasn't a jock growing up.  Pretty sure he said he was a theater kid.  So for her to imply that he uses his looks and strength to get everything he wants does him a great disservice.  Considering we saw how much he had to fight on this show to survive.

Sue did talk about this in her exit interviews.  Not so much the Tweedle Dee thing but that it really boiled down to feeling betrayed by Kyle when he wrote her name down and he promised he wouldn’t.  Something about they went on a walk through the jungle and he said she was “mama” and that he’d never write mama’s name down, and then did so.  I guess Sue didn’t realize she was on Survivor, where one of the core tenets of the game is lying (although lying about your age is apparently okay).  She seemed embarrassed by the montage of her spouting her hate for Kyle because she felt it monopolized her edit and didn’t show other things about her.  I guess she caught hate for it.  But Sue really seemed like an old school player in many ways.  She mentioned that at the Andy vote Rachel really wanted Sam out because she considered him a bigger threat, and was going to write his name down, but Sue absolutely refused to change hers from Andy, and it seemed like her main motive for wanting Andy out was to get justice for Caroline (excuse me, Sweet Caroline).   And that someone’s word meant something, loyalty would count for something, and somehow everyone would be impressed with her being older than 45.  I guess Sue was about 25 seasons too late for that stuff to matter.
 

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Rachel played a good game and is a deserving winner, but I don't think she's as outstanding as the jury thought she was. 

I think it was Sierra who said something about wanting the final 3 to sweat, but this jury Q&A was so lame.  I kept waiting for something to happen.  Definitely not as good as the last couple of FTC.  Maybe Rachel’s win was as much as a foregone conclusion for them, too, so they probably just wanted to get the vote over with and go get drunk.  

Edited December 20 by LadyChatts

[JH Lipton]

3 hours ago, GenerationX said:

I have been a GAMES magazine subscriber for decades

Thank you SO much for reminding my how much I miss Games magazine!  Even the Stephen Sondheim puzzles -- you have to what to the who, now???

[RedbirdNelly]

It was a very boring final but Rachel deserved the win. I was surprised by how well Sam did at tribal--much better than I expected--but unless they all hated Rachel for some reason, there was no way he was going to get the votes from someone who won immunity that many times, especially when he doesn't have a story of his super strategic moves (besides Operation Italy which wasn't his idea)

[blackwing]

15 hours ago, violet and green said:

I liked Kyle a lot, he was up there for most of the time as second in line to Sol as my faves of the season, but that one episode where the edit let him bang on about his family values, I was ready to throw a coconut at his head, so I can imagine it must have got particularly annoying at camp to hear that all the time. Plus he wrote her name down! Hahaha.

14 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Yeah, I bet that "gave it a buck twenty" thing wore a bit thin as well. Someone wrote it on their parchment when they voted him out, so it must have been something they heard a lot. 

And I liked Kyle too, but I could spot the things that probably would have made me roll my eyes a bit if around him 24/7.

12 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

Sue did talk about this in her exit interviews.  Not so much the Tweedle Dee thing but that it really boiled down to feeling betrayed by Kyle when he wrote her name down and he promised he wouldn’t.  Something about they went on a walk through the jungle and he said she was “mama” and that he’d never write mama’s name down, and then did so.  I guess Sue didn’t realize she was on Survivor, where one of the core tenets of the game is lying (although lying about your age is apparently okay).  She seemed embarrassed by the montage of her spouting her hate for Kyle because she felt it monopolized her edit and didn’t show other things about her.  I guess she caught hate for it.  But Sue really seemed like an old school player in many ways.  She mentioned that at the Andy vote Rachel really wanted Sam out because she considered him a bigger threat, and was going to write his name down, but Sue absolutely refused to change hers from Andy, and it seemed like her main motive for wanting Andy out was to get justice for Caroline (excuse me, Sweet Caroline).   And that someone’s word meant something, loyalty would count for something, and somehow everyone would be impressed with her being older than 45.  I guess Sue was about 25 seasons too late for that stuff to matter.

Sue's hate for Kyle didn't seem to have anything to do with him talking about his family life and values and his buck twenty.  It was purely because he voted for her.  After he voted for her, it was all she talked about.  She said many times that she wanted him out because he voted for her.  

I agree with your assessment of her, Lady Chatts.  And that she was years too late for loyalty to count.  I'd say her FTC performance was one of the worst I can remember.  Her pitch was "I deceived you into thinking I was 45, but today is my birthday, you can make my wish come true by making me the oldest woman to ever win.  Oh and I was loyal.  I didn't do anything in the game besides find an idol, but I was loyal!"

The only two equally bad FTC reasoning in recent-ish years that I can recall easily were Julie Rosenberg (Edge of Extinction, lost to Chris Underwood), who said her #1 strategy in the game was to "be nice" and that she should win because she was nice.  And the infamous Angelina Keeley (David vs Goliath, lost to Nick Wilson), who when asked what she did... "I gave up rice".

10 hours ago, JH Lipton said:

Thank you SO much for reminding my how much I miss Games magazine!  Even the Stephen Sondheim puzzles -- you have to what to the who, now???

It's still in publication!  There was a period of several years in the early 90s when it was defunct, but it's been going strong ever since.  It's now rebranded as "GAMES World of Puzzles" for some years now.  For some period, there were two magazines, the traditional Games and a second one called World of Puzzles which was all Pencilwise-type puzzles.  Then they combined and just go by the combined name.  The magazine no longer publishes monthly, it seems like anywhere from 6 to 9 issues a year.

Edited December 20 by blackwing

[30 Helens]

On 12/19/2024 at 9:39 AM, rhygirl720 said:

These days the challenges are janky carnival games

I love you / You love me / Janky, Janky, let’s party!

Oh, sorry. Wrong show.

[Nashville]

20 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wish someone had explained to [Sue] that it's Tweedledee.  Not Tweedle-lee-dee.  

I just assumed Sue was a Lavern Baker fan.  😉

 

ETA: TIL that if you (a) have to go back and correct some dumbass stupid shit this *** editor stuck into your post and (b) you actually CALL it a *** editor in the ‘Reason’ edit field, it will censor your Reason:

Edited December 20 by Nashville
[#^*ing p_o_s editor….

[Cheyanne11]

18 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Quote

Agree that Rachel didn't acknolwledge getting lucky at all or how she was fortunate she got gifted the advantage by Sol or bought the right food item.  According to her, she won the game because she made it happen.

I didn't get the sense that she was saying her win was free from luck, but she did win 4 immunity challenges along with that luck.

She also didn't just luck into the immunity idol--she lucked into a clue.  She still had to decipher the clue and then, in front of the whole tribe, get that idol out of the lining of the tent covering.  

Re: Sue and the whole age thing.  Clearly, she was older by a bit than anyone else.  But if she hadn't put an artificial number on it--and she did that all on her own, no one was asking about age--and then at FTC said 'oh, btw, today is my 59th birthday and I hung with all you people 20+ years younger than me' it might've made more of an impression.  Instead, she kinda sounded cringey.

[Rodney]

1 hour ago, 30 Helens said:

I love you / You love me / Janky, Janky, let’s party!

Oh, sorry. Wrong show.

. . . Suddenly, the name makes so much sense!

[SweetSable]

On 12/19/2024 at 3:29 PM, blackwing said:

I think Sam was a much more deserving winner.  He definitely won the "outlast" portion of the game.  He was almost always a target, he was voted for more times than any of the finalists, and he somehow found a way to survive. 

Rachel was almost always a target too and also found a way to survive - by winning 4 immunity challenges so she couldn't be voted for.

[realitytvfan1017]

On 12/18/2024 at 10:20 PM, Skooma said:

Well that was pretty anti-climatic given Rachel was near impossible to not win entering into this last episode.

She deserved it, sure.  But she got a lot of lucky breaks too.  I liked Sam way more.  He did have to scramble all the way through the merge portion of the game where for some reason he was viewed as a big threat and never got handed help out of the blue or in some french fries.

I'd imagine if Sam had those advantages he'd be saying a different story. It's not about the luck but what you do with it.

[needschocolate]

I thought it was weird that Kyle voted for Sam because???  Sam his friend??? Then I remembered reading (years ago) that the second place finisher gets like $100,000. Now I’m wondering if Kyle voted for Sam to make sure that his friend Sam would be in second place. 
 

As for the final tribal performances, I thought Sam came off as smug, but I will give him props for thinking fast on his feet.  If you thought about his answers, they wouldn’t fool you (like basically saying “I am the better player because I didn’t the easy route of winning immunity”).  However, if you didn’t pay attention, it almost sounded convincing. I was afraid he might fool some of the jury.

[LadyChatts]

44 minutes ago, needschocolate said:

I thought it was weird that Kyle voted for Sam because???  Sam his friend??? Then I remembered reading (years ago) that the second place finisher gets like $100,000. Now I’m wondering if Kyle voted for Sam to make sure that his friend Sam would be in second place. 

There was a post on Reddit tonight where someone shared a cameo that Kyle did, and he explained he did vote for Sam because he wanted him to get 2nd place.  He said he knew everyone else was voting for Rachel to win and believed she deserved it, but doesn't think Sam and Sue's games deserved to tie for second, as he thought Sam had a better one than Sue.

Of course, some people think he might have done it slightly out of spite because Sue was waging a one-sided war against him until his boot.  I mean I've seen people before get bent out of shape because someone dared to write their name down (Lex in S3 was probably the worst) but Sue's gotta be right up there in letting revenge get the better of her because someone was playing the game, and she got lied to and had her name written down.    

Edited December 21 by LadyChatts

[violet and green]

46 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

Sue's gotta be right up there in letting revenge get the better of her because someone was playing the game, and she got lied to and had her name written down.    

Yeah, I kept hoping she would come to her senses and form a secret pact with Kyle to work together...

It's interesting to see how many of this season's cast brought about their own undoing. Rome, by being Rome. Genevieve, I believe, by getting high on her own deviousness and jumping the gun on Sol . Andy, undone by pride, showing off all his moves to Rachael because he thought she was definitely going. Sam and Teeny by being too comfortable, and never bothering to make fire before they had to make fire for their place in the final. Teeny, focusing on Sam's exterior, and being generally oblivious. There's a much bigger list, but that's the general drift. It was a season of Pyrrhic victories and shooting themselves in the foot.

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

There was a post on Reddit tonight where someone shared a cameo that Kyle did, and he explained he did vote for Sam because he wanted him to get 2nd place.  He said he knew everyone else was voting for Rachel to win and believed she deserved it, but doesn't think Sam and Sue's games deserved to tie for second, as he thought Sam had a better one than Sue.

Of course, some people think he might have done it slightly out of spite because Sue was waging a one-sided war against him until his boot.  I mean I've seen people before get bent out of shape because someone dared to write their name down (Lex in S3 was probably the worst) but Sue's gotta be right up there in letting revenge get the better of her because someone was playing the game, and she got lied to and had her name written down.    

Well - there ya go then, and what a great illustration of one of the core tenets of the game: in the end, Sue’s absolutely abysmal management of her social relationship with Kyle cost her $50K.  😄

[Katrina Kate]

17 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I mean I've seen people before get bent out of shape because someone dared to write their name down (Lex in S3 was probably the worst)

I put Rupert [S7] right up there with Lex. Plus the absolute hubris in a TH where Rupert tells us that he knows his tribemates want him to win and they will feel honored losing to him. [Or some such bull.]

[tv echo]

In one of their exit interviews, both Rachel and Sam said that they never believed that Sue was 45. They thought she was 52 or 53, so they were surprised that Sue was 59.

I was initially in the camp where Rachel was lucky to be saved by Sol. But she made a good point in her exit interviews that she made an instant bond with Sol and that others on the winning team would not have saved her. Sol's decision to save her might've been partly due to wanting to break up the majority tribe in the losing team, but if someone else like Rome had been in Rachel's situation, I doubt that Sol would've saved Rome. So I think that Rachel gets partial credit for her social game helping her win over Sol.

Luck plays a role in every player's game. From the start of the season, you can have the bad luck of being in a weak tribe (that repeatedly goes to tribal council) or the bad luck of being in a strong tribe (that gets to avoid tribal council multiple times).

Edited December 22 by tv echo

[iMonrey]

On 12/19/2024 at 6:06 PM, snarts said:

Rachel was 100% deserving. She outplayed everyone, which is why she got seven votes from the jury.

She outlasted everyone. You don't really "play" Survivor anymore. At most, you dodge it.

[Nashville]

12 hours ago, tv echo said:

I was initially in the camp where Rachel was lucky to be saved by Sol. But she made a good point in her exit interviews that she made an instant bond with Sol and that others on the winning team would not have saved her. Sol's decision to save her might've been partly due to wanting to break up the majority tribe in the losing team, but if someone else like Rome had been in Rachel's situation, I doubt that Sol would've saved Rome. So I think that Rachel gets partial credit for her social game helping her win over Sol.

In that respect, Rachel’s approach for surviving that particular TC was akin to Ford Prefect’s plan when he and Arthur Dent got dumped out of a Vogon airlock into the vacuum of space: find a passing spaceship, and get rescued by it.  In other words, pure luck.

IMHO a significant contributing factor to Sol’s decision to use the advantage on Rachel was simply because:

1. Sol knew nobody in the TC group would expect such an advantage to pop up out of nowhere, so its use would be a 100% total blindside.
2. ”Immunizing” Rachel at that point would guarantee maximum chaos (and carnage) among the remaining TC candidates - and that thought entertained Sol and made him happy.
3. Sol could exercise the advantage with complete anonymity, so its use presented 0% blowback to him.

If any one of these 3 points had not been in play, I doubt Sol would’ve used the advantage - and none of them had anything to do with how superlative Rachel’s game was.  Rachel simply got lucky - and that’s not a bad thing.

[millennium]

 

In my mind, she was the obvious winner, but the jury seemed to like Sam more, for reasons I don’t understand.

He's a guy.  Period.

I'm really surprised Sam didn't win.   He deserved nothing (although his entitlement told him otherwise).   All he had at tribal council was his sports announcer stream of bullshit.   And fake crying.

But Gabler won with even less.

Generally speaking, men prefer to vote for men and women do not like to vote for women. 

I really thought Rachel was going to be Cassidy 2.0.

So glad to be wrong. 

[ljenkins782]

17 hours ago, Nashville said:

In that respect, Rachel’s approach for surviving that particular TC was akin to Ford Prefect’s plan when he and Arthur Dent got dumped out of a Vogon airlock into the vacuum of space: find a passing spaceship, and get rescued by it.  In other words, pure luck.

IMHO a significant contributing factor to Sol’s decision to use the advantage on Rachel was simply because:

1. Sol knew nobody in the TC group would expect such an advantage to pop up out of nowhere, so its use would be a 100% total blindside.
2. ”Immunizing” Rachel at that point would guarantee maximum chaos (and carnage) among the remaining TC candidates - and that thought entertained Sol and made him happy.
3. Sol could exercise the advantage with complete anonymity, so its use presented 0% blowback to him.

If any one of these 3 points had not been in play, I doubt Sol would’ve used the advantage - and none of them had anything to do with how superlative Rachel’s game was.  Rachel simply got lucky - and that’s not a bad thing.

It was also luck that Sol was the one to find that advantage. Had it been someone else that Rachel did not have a relationship with, the outcome would have been different. So while it's true that luck abounded in this situation, Rachel's relationship with Sol swayed the outcome.

Quote

I put Rupert [S7] right up there with Lex. Plus the absolute hubris in a TH where Rupert tells us that he knows his tribemates want him to win and they will feel honored losing to him. [Or some such bull.]

The spookiest part about Ruper's freakout was how his giggling little baby voice was replaced with an absolute roar as he tried to choke out Johnny Fairplay. That wild of a swing in personality suggests that something isn't quite right mentally.