S02.E08: Shadow and Flame

[paulvdb]

Quote

Season Finale. The free peoples of Middle-earth struggle against the forces of darkness.

Premiere date: October 3, 2024

[Grimnar]

That was ... not good.

Dwarves' storyline was praised as best or among the best in both seasons but how it ended was just disappointing. King of course released balrog as was teased in previous episode but don't worry, he again trapped him. Army, which was needed and couldn't go to help Eregion, wasn't involved in that and then make stealth ambush in city, which even elves would envy. And of course there is Durin's brother, who wasn't mentioned at all(please correct me if he was mentioned in previous episodes or season), and is ready to cause trouble because the neclace which Durin wore doesn't mean that he is heir. Strange that no one is worried that there is balrong just few rocks away(please don't read article in Variety where showrunners are explaining why they sealed balrog again, doesn't meke sense at all).And it seems that Durin will hand rings to other kings.

Stranger and hobbits storyline keep its "quality". Stranger is finally confirmed Gandalf(Stroots never saw elf, Stranger looks like man but let call him Grand-elf), Tom Bombadil was Bombadil for one episode and when they used all his lines from books, he became different character(he evokes Olivander from Harry Potter this episode). Poppy and Nori decided to help Stroots and part ways with Stranger. It kind of seems like waste of time this storyline.

Númenor wasn't much better. Pharazon came with paper that Miriel is collaborating somehow with Sauron so let the terror begin. Miriel is arrested and Elendil is heading west where is his second son who didn't bother to visit his father before his execution. Kemen needed just to kick puppy and steal some candy from kid how cartonishly villain he is. Isildur almost had girlfriend, very "fulfilling" storyline. And Numenor now decide to colonize Middle Earth when in previous seasons were againts it?

Eregion was sacked, Celebrimbor killed. I wonder if the elf who was healed by Nenya died when Adar's injuries came back after he handed ring back to Galadriel. Morfydd Clark's strong suit are not action scenes. Arondir's wound was probably only flesh wound, because he was completly fine this episode. Orcs endeed turned againts Adar but in the end found that it was mistake. Sauron is not afraid that he will be "Ceasared" again. I was little surpised that no one try to stopped them when they attacked Adar, not even orcs which bringed Galadriel.


To overall my overall feelings about this season:
It may seems harsh but at this point Amazon should replace showrunners and probably also all writers.

They don't have any idea how to build storyline which will spread entire season, how to work with scale and time, how to have logic in their storyline.

People are teleporting as needed.

The plot points are so rushed as there is no buildup - Durin Elder put ring on and is immedietly greedy, Numenor is now pretty much anti-Valar(don't really know what Sauron is going to do there) until they follow Valar's signs, rings are made overnight unless we have to stall, elves are not listening to Celebrimbor till Galadriel say that he is their lord, etc.

There is missing logic in storylines - dwarves rings are corrupted because we lied to Gil-galad so to fix it, let's make more rings. Eregion city built walls between seasons, Adar suspects that Halbrand is Sauron but let him go, orcs turn againts Adar because we need to have them under Sauron, etc.

Gil-galad is so dissapoting as character.

There are no consequences for character's actions - for Galadriel no punishment that she didn't tell who Halbrand is, Elrond is still hanging with Cirdan after Cirdan betray him, etc.

The easter eggs or using lines from books or scenes from movies are more miss then hit and usually done in so heavyhanded way.

In the end improvement over first season but still at best average fantasy show.

[Harvey]

I have a question. The motivation of the orcs was really not explained at all. What actually happened here? They find Sauron in a room, and the scene cuts away. Then in the next scene they just kill Adar, no mention of how Sauron won them over to their side at all. And why do they keep following him after he killed Glug? This is not explained either even though both are very important points.

And Arondir: last episode we left him stabbed. Did I miss a scene where he was magically healed, or what happened? He was in mint condition here and able to fight proficiently as if nothing was wrong.🕳️

[Grimnar]

2 minutes ago, Harvey said:

I have a question. The motivation of the orcs was really not explained at all. What actually happened here? They find Sauron in a room, and the scene cuts away. Then in the next scene they just kill Adar, no mention of how Sauron won them over to their side at all. And why do they keep following him after he killed Glug? This is not explained either even though both are very important points.

And Arondir: last episode we left him stabbed. Did I miss a scene where he was magically healed, or what happened? He was in mint condition here and able to fight proficiently as if nothing was wrong.🕳️

I assume that orcs will be explained as Sauron put them under his control/spell as he did with elves(any logic to it be damned).

No, you didn't missed any scene. Either they forgot that Arondir was wounded or they cut scene where someone healed him(but it has to be only  Adar with Nenya).

[Tachi Rocinante]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

And why do they keep following him after he killed Glug? This is not explained either even though both are very important points.

I thought Glug was faking it.  Didn't he start a stabbin'?

[Harvey]

37 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

I thought Glug was faking it.  Didn't he start a stabbin'?

Yes but in the later part of the episode Sauron mercilessly murders him in front of a bunch of orcs.

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Grimnar said:

There are no consequences for character's actions - for Galadriel no punishment that she didn't tell who Halbrand is, Elrond is still hanging with Cirdan after Cirdan betray him, etc.

 

Punishment is not, even today in our world, known to be an effective way to make people be better  it usually stems more from the bitterness and anger of the person meting out the punishment  it is more of a ‘sauron’ thing. The elves also live a long time and have to put up with long term consequences of holding long term resentments, which is again sauron territory. As far as Galadriel goes, she was demoted and clearly understood the larger consequences of her actions, which may include sheltering and healing the refugeees of eregion, rather than being part of the battle. Although at the end Gil-Galad reinstates her rank. 

Edited October 4 by Affogato

[dkb]

 

I agree with your entire post @Grimnar yet I oddly really enjoyed it. Did it have time issues and some questionable writing choices, yes - but I thought it built on the episodes and did the job as a season finale for the most part.

7 hours ago, Grimnar said:

Kemen needed just to kick puppy and steal some candy from kid how cartonishly villain he is. Isildur almost had girlfriend, very "fulfilling" storyline. And Numenor now decide to colonize Middle Earth when in previous seasons were againts it?
 

If this man doesn't have the worst death ever, I will be so pissed. He's such a hateful loser. Man, hopefully his mother was right about him. His father is gross too. Gee, Earien if it isn't the consequences of your actions. I hope she see's the light, but like @Grimnar says maybe we should be seeing this change in her for longer than a scene.

Elrond stays the best - his appeal to not destroy the records of Eregion. Also he was right, Durin did come! (kept his promise to Elrond).

The shot with King Durian jumping off to fight the Balrog - beautiful!

Glad Arondir is alright, hopefully he gets something meaningful to do next season.

[peridot]

Even thought Adar pushed things with trying to break into Eregion, I still felt sad when his children betrayed him.  I was shocked to see what the ring did to him.

The Orcs shouldn't have been surprised at how easily Sauron turned on them, he never loved them at all.

I enjoyed the fight between Sauron and Galadriel.  Some of the blows and kicks looked really hard. 

Poor Celebrimbor.  Sauron is a very sadistic creature.  It looked like he smeared his blood on the blade before he killed Celebrimbor.  I hope that doesn't mean he will be brought back as some undead creature.

I don't really care too much about the hobbits or Numenor.  The leader had to know that his fiance was about to leave him, right?  I was surprised to see him reaching out for her hand as Isildur left.

There were great special effects during the Balrog scene.

[Mr. R0b0t]

27 minutes ago, peridot said:

The leader had to know that his fiance was about to leave him, right?  I was surprised to see him reaching out for her hand as Isildur left.

 

I thought they were showing us he had a brand on his hand.....or was that shown/discussed before?

[wanderingstar]

In my head cannon, Galadriel threw up a middle finger to Sauron as she was falling off that cliff.

Glad to see Arondir made it. I need them to give him more to do.

I'd like that to be the last we see of Nori and Poppy. I like the actresses, but the characters were just meh to me.

RIP, Celebrimbor. Good for you for refusing to cave and tell Sauron where the nine rings were.

RIP, Adar. I think you really were a better option than Sauron. The orcs are going to find out the hard way that they threw in with the wrong guy.

The writers need to do a better job balancing the storylines. Isildur basically dropped out of the show from the middle of the season until this episode, so when he showed up, I was like, "Now, what was he doing, again?"

Kemen and Eairen are so annoying. Can someone throw them to the Balrog?

 

Edited October 4 by wanderingstar

[Aulty]

15 hours ago, Grimnar said:

Dwarves' storyline was praised as best or among the best in both seasons but how it ended was just disappointing. King of course released balrog as was teased in previous episode but don't worry, he again trapped him. Army, which was needed and couldn't go to help Eregion, wasn't involved in that and then make stealth ambush in city, which even elves would envy. And of course there is Durin's brother, who wasn't mentioned at all(please correct me if he was mentioned in previous episodes or season), and is ready to cause trouble because the neclace which Durin wore doesn't mean that he is heir. Strange that no one is worried that there is balrong just few rocks away(please don't read article in Variety where showrunners are explaining why they sealed balrog again, doesn't meke sense at all).And it seems that Durin will hand rings to other kings.

I think the brother was mentioned once in passing, but shouldn't the whole being called Durin and wearing the necklace confirm his place in the line of succession? Wasn't that a big thing about being the 'current' Durin and that it wasn't his real name but his title?

The Balrog thing is like not going to the dentist with a tooth ache and expecting it to just go away.

I enjoyed the choreography of the moves in the fight between Sauron and Galadriel, sword against crown. But the sequence was too stop and go, and dragged on for too long.

Edited October 4 by Aulty

[thuganomics85]

Grand-elf= Gandalf.  Yep, that happened!  At least it's finally confirmed now.  And I have to imagine this means Dark Wizard/Ciaran Hinds is Saruman, unless they have something else up their sleeves.  But he manages to save Nori/Poppy at least, but it looks like they are all going their separate ways again.

Oh, Adar.  I knew his past treatment towards these orcs was going to come back to haunt him and once he showed sincerity about working with Galadriel towards bringing peace to Middle Earth, I knew he was done for.  The irony is that the orcs will probably regret this since Adar really did seem to view them as his children in his own weird way.  Meanwhile, Sauron really does seem to view them as just tools to be used and will probably make Adar look ten times better when it is all said and done.

Despite coming off like a fool a lot of times, I'm glad Celebrimbor went out on a high note by not giving Sauron the satisfaction of breaking him.

King Durin finally seems the error of his ways and goes out taking on the Balrog like a boss.  But it looks like Durin isn't exactly going to cakewalk to the throne since other lords will be going for it: including a brother of his?

Arondir looks pretty good for an elf who seemed to be knocking on death's door last week.

Pharazon goes full tyrant on the proceedings now, and is even making his smug son go out and force neighboring towns to do their biddings.  But Isildur is on his way back, so we'll see if he can find some way to slow things down.

Galadriel and Sauron's fight scene was pretty solid, despite having the knowledge that neither one was going to bite it.  Still, Sauron did get back the nine rings from her, so I guess he came out ahead more or less.

And so ends another season of the Rings of Power: one of the oddest shows out there.  I thought this was a solid improvement from last season and it still has a lot going for it like the scenery, the acting, and the overall production value.  But despite all of that, it still feels strangely cold and stagnate, and gives off an overall vibe of being a show that isn't reaching its potential.  At this point, I don't know if it will ever get there, but at least it has enough going for it to keep watching... for now.

[Haleth]

I swear I read yesterday that TPTB are firing all the writers and have a new bunch for the next season, but I can't find the article now so maybe it was just wishful thinking.

Hopefully this is the end of Nori and Poppy.  They served their purpose but since the Stranger is coming into his own now they are superfluous.  Grandelf.  Ugh.  Did anyone else cringe?  I guess that means the dark wizard is Saruman and G conveniently forgets that he was a bad guy from the get go?  It would have been much more interesting if the two of them were the mysterious blue wizards.

The balrog was well done.  Durin and Disa continue to be the best.  

The Galadriel/Sauron/Adar scenes weren't terrible.  I did cringe again when Adar was speaking about having another name and I recalled the theory that he was actually Celeborn and was going to be redeemed.  Whew.  Glad that turned out to be false.

How did Arondir survive being stabbed in the gut?  I mean, I'm glad he did because he's the best original character.  Just a flesh wound, I guess.

I've said before that I really want to like Elendil but he is sooo underdeveloped.  The actor is doing a good job with what he's given.  Please let the new writers make him more than a stock hero type.  Give him more to do than glower.

[Harvey]

20 hours ago, Haleth said:

I swear I read yesterday that TPTB are firing all the writers and have a new bunch for the next season, but I can't find the article now so maybe it was just wishful thinking.

Haha, how embarrassing for the writers

Edited October 5 by Harvey

[Affogato]

I liked the fight between Galadriel and Sauron, it seemed hard and realistic. Bit of a contrast between that fight snd the stylized Kata the elves exhibited last week. I am sorry to lose Adar. ( maybe Sadly) I think, since he has not yet appeared, it could have been interesting if he had been Celeborn. The Uruk don’t end well, in any case, but it would have been a chance to learn more about them. I assume we will get some scenes of them being beaten down, but not the same. 
 

 ‘Grand-elf’ was cringey, but it is kind of nice they named him. I was happy with the Harfoot/Stranger story as a separate story but I think it was unnecessary. I assume they wanted the familiarity for rhe casual viewer? Balrog too.  Numenor is undeveloped. 
 

They needed to pick a lane. 
 

i wonder what someone who is unspoiled, (‘unsullied’ ) would think of this. I mean unspoiled except for maybe the peter jackson movies, without any need to bicker about the details of the fall of Numenor and where Eregion is and so on.  
 

 

[wanderingstar]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Arondir looks pretty good for an elf who seemed to be knocking on death's door last week.

For real! I was happy to see him alive, but I kept wondering what happened to his wounds. He was walking around like he hadn't been stabbed. 😄

[wanderingstar]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

And so ends another season of the Rings of Power: one of the oddest shows out there.  I thought this was a solid improvement from last season and it still has a lot going for it like the scenery, the acting, and the overall production value.  But despite all of that, it still feels strangely cold and stagnate, and gives off an overall vibe of being a show that isn't reaching its potential. 

100%. I keep waiting to feel fully invested in all the characters and stories, but the show never quite takes me there. Often, it feels like we're just expected to be invested because we're familiar with the source material. I've never read the books, but I'm a big fan of the Peter Jackson movies, so I have some familiarity with the world and (some of) the characters. But this story should be compelling in its own right - not just because it takes place in a world I already know.

[proserpina65]

Did the Stranger's identity surprise anyone at all?

[wanderingstar]

Did the finale indicate where Elendil was headed - other than away from Pharazon's goons hunting him?

[Grimnar]

6 minutes ago, wanderingstar said:

Did the finale indicate where Elendil was headed - other than away from Pharazon's goons hunting him?

To western part of Numenor, where should be his second son Anarion, maybe even Elendil's father.

[Affogato]

I wonder if they planned on centering around Galadriel in the first season, when systemic sexism put them off, and are switching gears. Having Galadriel and Adar against Sauron still seemed like a good choice, with the rest showing up in the background.  They need a pov character. 

Edited October 4 by Affogato

[baldryanr]

They were always going to start off with a known character as first among equals in the cast - helps draw in more casual fans.  Once the show had time to develop they could figure out who did and didn't click.

The problem with Galadriel is they made her an annoying idiot - jumping off a boat in the middle of the ocean, acting all high and mighty with the Numenoreans when she needed their help, and keeping mum about Halbrand = Sauron until Elrond forced her hand.  Most of the other characters were far more sympathetic and/or interesting.

[Affogato]

18 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

They were always going to start off with a known character as first among equals in the cast - helps draw in more casual fans.  Once the show had time to develop they could figure out who did and didn't click.

The problem with Galadriel is they made her an annoying idiot - jumping off a boat in the middle of the ocean, acting all high and mighty with the Numenoreans when she needed their help, and keeping mum about Halbrand = Sauron until Elrond forced her hand.  Most of the other characters were far more sympathetic and/or interesting.

I didn’t feel the other characters were more sympathetic or interesting. Jumping off the boat was an expression of desperation, sure, but not stupid. She was not able to accept heaven. 

Edited October 4 by Affogato

[astrohip]

12 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Grand-elf= Gandalf.  Yep, that happened!  At least it's finally confirmed now.  And I have to imagine this means Dark Wizard/Ciaran Hinds is Saruman, unless they have something else up their sleeves.

He's not Saruman. They've all but confirmed it's not him.

[Jodithgrace]

I guess if they can morph “Hold the door!” Into Hodor, the can morph Grand Elf into Gandalf. 
 

I too wondered if Adar was going to become Celeborn when he put on the ring and said he had been known by many names. He and Galadriel seemed to have so much chemistry. 
 

I was waiting to see Sauron put that crown on and become the Sauron we all know and hate instead of emo elf Sauron. 

[Phillygurl]

Casual viewer here. Yes, I have watched the movies but only once each so I may be one of the more ignorant board member here. 

Even I knew who the stranger was by like episode 4 of the first season. They hit us over the head with it given his friendship with the Harfoots

I really did not like Galadriel. Even before she found out about Sauron and neglected to tell anyone. I just found her haughty and unlikeable. So I was relieved this season had less of her. It made the moments where she was featured significantly more tolerable and enjoyable.

I have to say I enjoyed this season. I had a lot of trouble with Sauron/Celebrimbor scenes just because they were very well acted and quite believable.

I also love the dwarves. The movies are a bit of a blur to me but I don't remember the dwarves being featured very much and honestly I see them as my favorite. They're proud and hardworking. Strong allies to have. I have watched the first scene of episode 8 multiple times now. It still tears me up.

I like Numenor as well. Even though Pharazon is a jerk and his kid is gross, it's such a watchable story line from my perspective.

As for Isildur, I almost dislike him as much as I disliked Galadriel in season one. He seems like a spoiled brat and then he finally gets his adventure that he wanted so badly he uses it to fall in love with literally the first girl he sees? I don't even understand what kind of bond he built with Theo. I hope next season they flash forward to Theo being an adult and a decidedly more interesting character.

Oh yeah and wasn't that so awkward where Isildur is openly declaring he is bringing that woman with her fiancé right there??? Like she couldn't have done her fiancé the simple courtesy of ending their engagement first? I dunno I know there Is limited screen time but this seemed very wrong to me.

Lastly Arondir! Love him. Even though he basically magically healed, I'm okay with it. But shouldn't he be promoted at this point? I mean Galadriel has seen first hand what he is capable of. He should get his own army to lead at the very least.

One of the better/more satisfying finales I have watched this season.

Edited October 4 by Phillygurl

[Camera One]

This finale was a convoluted mess.  Most of the scenes and scenarios felt so staged and the dialogue and character responses just didn't feel natural to me.  

I guess I will start with, hate to say it, Gandalf.  How did he suddenly know where Nori and Poppy were?  Gandalf arrived just in time for the masked desert guys to walk Nori and Poppy down the stairs at knifepoint.  Was the Dark Wizard trying to win Gandalf on side by breaking his alliance with the masked guy?  And then suddenly, all the Stoors came out of the shadows on cue.  

Then, after he blasted the cliffside, the Dark Wizard just left?  If all he wanted was a chat, why didn't he just find Gandalf himself and have a convo with him in the desert instead of sending those "mysterious" masked men?  He could have visited his old mentor Tom Bombadil, who apparently also steals lines from Harry Potter.  The writing made Gandalf seem like such an idiot (or was it assuming the audience were idiots). "So that was just a test, right? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?"  

Meanwhile, what made Durin the Elder think jumping into the abyss would save the rest of the dwarves from the Balrog?  From where he left his ring, wouldn't it be inaccessible and unreachable due to where the rocks caved in to shut up the hole?  How convenient the Balrog was satisfied and Durin the Younger felt safe enough to send the rest of the army onto Eregion. 

Disa listing all the threats at the end made her seem like the exposition fairy.  Knowing what he knows about the extreme negative impacts of his father's ring, would Durin just hand the other rings out to the other dwarf lords?

I liked Isildur earlier in the season, but openly going after an engaged woman made him seem like a total jerk with no scruples.  I hate Kemen but I had to laugh when the Southland guy was saying, "This is Theo, Bronwyn's son" like that meant something. 

I didn't realize Numenor was a one-day boat ride to where Theo and Isildur were.  I was confused when I first saw Kemen because I thought the scene was taking place in Numenor.  

Muriel surviving the sea monster was pointless, then.  Pharazon was still ruler.  Did the Palantir print out a document to proclaim Miriel was allied with Sauron?  Huh?  Meanwhile, Elendil was just standing around clueless and needed his daughter to warn him he was going to be arrested.  

The Elf soldiers defending Eregion were made to look totally inept, cartoonishly getting killed left right and center.  Adar's about face felt so sudden and unearned.  Now he was all for peace because he put on the ring?  Conveniently just in time to die a "hero"'s death at the hands of his beloved "children".    

Galadriel and Sauron's sword fight felt contrived to me as well.  He could have killed her at so many points.  He could have used his mind tricks to compel her to give up the 9 rings.  

Meanwhle, Gil-galad, Elrond and Suddenly-Alive-Arondir conveniently saw Galadriel falling off a cliff from afar just as they got reinforcement from the Dwarves, and they could run over to save her.  I'm surprised we didn't see Elrond putting out the fire to save some of those scrolls before going off to Galadriel.  Good thing she survived the impact of the fall, eh? 

Overall, I just couldn't lose myself in any of the stories in this one, which was disappointing for a finale.  

Edited October 5 by Camera One

[mrspidey]

So the fight between Galadriel and Sauron totally happened in the same place that later will be the stage for Frodo getting his first glimpse of Mordor via ring vision, after Boromir has tried to take the ring from him, and also were Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas start fighting the Uruk-Hai?

 

It looked very familiar, especially that U-shaped thing at the top.

Edited October 5 by mrspidey

[Affogato]

This worked as a series finale, if it came to that. I thought that was deliberate, although it is likely renewed. Grand elf got his staff. Sauron got his nine and his army. Adar died. The elves regrouped and recommitted to good behavior. Humans experience Numenor’s evil colonialism. It may have fueled some of the choices. 

Edited October 5 by Affogato

[Haleth]

46 minutes ago, Affogato said:

This worked as a series finale, if it came to that

Oh, no no no!  Sil lovers are waiting for the grand finale!

 

2 hours ago, mrspidey said:

So the fight between Galadriel and Sauron totally happened in the same place that later will be the stage for Frodo getting his first glimpse of Mordor via ring vision, after Boromir has tried to take the ring from him, and also were Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas start fighting the Uruk-Hai?

 

It looked very familiar, especially that U-shaped thing at the top.

No, not the same place.

[katha]

19 hours ago, baldryanr said:

They were always going to start off with a known character as first among equals in the cast - helps draw in more casual fans.  Once the show had time to develop they could figure out who did and didn't click.

The problem with Galadriel is they made her an annoying idiot - jumping off a boat in the middle of the ocean, acting all high and mighty with the Numenoreans when she needed their help, and keeping mum about Halbrand = Sauron until Elrond forced her hand.  Most of the other characters were far more sympathetic and/or interesting.

The logistics were also always going to be difficult with Galadriel. We saw that this season. Sauron is the driver of the plot, everyone is reacting to him. They rightly centered him this season, I think it makes sense to stay with that model and have a most prominent leader of the good guys for every season as necessary. You saw that the further away from Sauron the narrative went the weaker it became IMO, structurally it makes sense to tighten things up around him as he gains in power and wreaks ever more havoc.

Per Tolkien, Galadriel is not present for most of this in direct ways. You can add her in crucial moments like they did this season and IMO it was fine, but she needs to do things on her own like gain her spiritual powers, build Lothlorien, presumably find Celeborn somewhere along the way. Her realm will be an important point of resistance, but she's not always directly tied to the fight against Sauron. And they did present a scenario why that is in the show, not because she's weak, but because she has been obsessed with destroying Sauron for ages and this darkness has made her susceptible to him. Continuing on this quest has the real possibility of turning her into what she hates. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, katha said:

The logistics were also always going to be difficult with Galadriel. We saw that this season. Sauron is the driver of the plot, everyone is reacting to him. They rightly centered him this season, I think it makes sense to stay with that model and have a most prominent leader of the good guys for every season as necessary. You saw that the further away from Sauron the narrative went the weaker it became IMO, structurally it makes sense to tighten things up around him as he gains in power and wreaks ever more havoc.

Per Tolkien, Galadriel is not present for most of this in direct ways. You can add her in crucial moments like they did this season and IMO it was fine, but she needs to do things on her own like gain her spiritual powers, build Lothlorien, presumably find Celeborn somewhere along the way. Her realm will be an important point of resistance, but she's not always directly tied to the fight against Sauron. And they did present a scenario why that is in the show, not because she's weak, but because she has been obsessed with destroying Sauron for ages and this darkness has made her susceptible to him. Continuing on this quest has the real possibility of turning her into what she hates. 

Yes, it is clear that Galadriel is going to provide light and hope for the refugees from now on. I think she has in the canon already found Celeborn, I assume he shows up among the refugees at some point. there is plenty to do in that area. 
 

Tolkein didn’t have many active female characters. Eowyn was a nod to the norse. They were wives, mothers, symbols to fight for, something to come home to, that sort of thing. 

[Grimnar]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Yes, it is clear that Galadriel is going to provide light and hope for the refugees from now on. I think she has in the canon already found Celeborn, I assume he shows up among the refugees at some point. there is plenty to do in that area. 
 

 

Celeborn wasn't missing in the lore. Missing Celeborn is invention of showrunners so they could have Galadriel and Halbrand shipping.
 

[QuantumMechanic]

8 hours ago, mrspidey said:

So the fight between Galadriel and Sauron totally happened in the same place that later will be the stage for Frodo getting his first glimpse of Mordor via ring vision, after Boromir has tried to take the ring from him, and also were Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas start fighting the Uruk-Hai?

No, not the same place.

That thing with Frodo happened on Amon Hen which was east of the Misty Mountains, southeast of Rohan, and not that far (in the grand scheme of things) from Gondor.

The Sauron/Galadriel fight was in Ost-in-Edhil in Eregion, west of the Misty Mountains and much further north.

Remember, Eregion is on the same side of the mountains as the "Speak friend and enter" door to Moria, while visiting Lorien and all that stuff that came after it (like the breaking of the Fellowship) was after going through Moria to the other side of the mountains.

Edited October 5 by QuantumMechanic

[Grimnar]

I wonder about 2 things for future seasons.

1. Will there be some significant timeskip or Rivendell, Barad-dur and later Osgiliath, etc will be build in few days/weeks?

2. How is Pharazon going to attack Valinor when they established in first episode that there is not straight sea route to Valinor?

Edited October 5 by Grimnar

[Camera One]

Now that Season 2 is over and thinking back, I have mixed feelings.  By the middle of the season, I would have said this season was better than the first, but by the end, I was beginning to think the second season wasn't any better. 

The same underlying problems were still there - uneven pacing, clunky dialogue, unearned character moments, and poor worldbuilding especially in regards to time passage between subplots in different places and travelling between them.

Visually, I think I liked this season even more than the last.  There were some beautiful shots, and I liked the look of the various places.

My details of earlier this season is already fuzzy, but to go through the various characters/subplot before everything disappears from my mind...

Elrond:  I really liked him in the first season, and one of the few slightly-better developed relationships was between Elrond and Durin, though the mithril stuff was weak.  He started this season distrusting the rings, and ended it by putting the ring on to heal Galadriel.  So what exactly was his arc?  Realizing he was wrong?  I actually agreed with his original suspicions of the rings, but his actions/arguments with Galadriel felt childish, which made his character incredibly annoying.  Galadriel was no more likeable this season than the last.  I'm not sure what she learned from the season, either.  That she can't win taking on Sauron alone?  You can't have characters learning lessons that are so obvious, or they seem stupid.

Overall Elrond/Galadriel/Gil-galad conflict:  This whole subplot was not enjoyable to watch.  Galadriel and Elrond had so few scenes in Season 1 that I never bought them as close, so their rift did not work on an emotional level.  Gil-galad, Galadriel and Cirdan all immediately embraced the rings with zero reservations, and it made them seem simplistic in their thinking.  The lack of urgency getting the message to Celebrimbor that Halbrand was Sauron on everyone's part felt plot-oriented, because no one even tried.  The Elves came off as incompetent.  They seemed to have no scouts.  No one knew about the damaged bridge before Galadriel and Elrond happened upon it?  The Elves acted like humans... nothing they did or said indicated they had been alive for eons. 

Eregion: Similarly, the defence of the capital city was a total joke.  They spent so much on the visuals for the big battle episode, but I didn't enjoy watching it.  It was hard to feel much for the city when it was never a living breathing place.

Celebrimbor/Sauron/Eregion subplot:  It wasn't a living breathing place because we only really had three speaking characters - Celebrimbor, Sauron and the female smith.  The other elves working in the forge felt like extras.  I never felt that any of them were close to Celebrimbor, so Sauron's manipulations of them fell flat.  Season 1 did such a bad job of developing Celebrimbor that I never understood or bought his reason for wanting to craft rings of power against his better judgement (not that he was shown to have any)  That completely undermined the Celebrimbor/Sauron plot, and Celebrimbor's arc sadly left me cold, because he remained a one-dimensional character.

Sauron/Halbrand/Annatar: At least they didn't have Celebrimbor not recognize Annatar even though he looked exactly like Halbrand.  I'm not even sure what we are supposed to think about Sauron's level of evilness.  Was he actually considering being less evil in Season 1 as Halbrand?  Rewatching Season 1 after this season wouldn't clarify anything.  They added stuff like Sauron crying at the end when he was torturing Celebrimbor, as if that showed he still had a bit of a heart, but all I could do was roll my eyes.  In an interview, the showrunners even validated why some viewers might think Celebrimbor and Sauron had some sexual tension.  I'm not sure the headwriters are capable of writing characters in an organic fashion because they're so busy thinking about wow factor.  It just felt like characters were chesspieces being moved around based on the very bare outlines of Tolkien's plot.  Everything felt convenient.  Sauron was also way over-powered, with undefined abilities of mind control, which made his battle with Galadriel at the end predictable and lacking in tension.  We knew she wouldn't die, even though she would've.  We knew he wouldn't get her ring, even though he should've, given his powers.

Adar: This was supposedly a very smart character, which basically spent all season falling for Sauron's plan.  He let Halbrand go, yet supposedly suspected he was Sauron, yet he still took his orc children to Eregion.  They made sure to have him look like an elf and suddenly preaching peace before having him ruthlessly murdered by his "children".  On paper, it was clearly supposed to tug at our heartstrings, but I couldn't care less.

Harfoots/Stranger: I didn't hate Nori/Stranger in Season 1.  I actually thought they were one of the few true friendships that was actually developed.  But I couldn't feel it this season anymore, for some reason.  In hindsight, the headhunter in the desert wearing that mask was clearly just a way to kill time, considering how quickly he was killed off in the finale.  The Dark Wizard's actions made no sense if he simply wanted to convince Gandalf to join his side.  The Tom Bombadil stuff with him acting the complete opposite of his book version and taking on the role of Yoda and the wand maker in Harry Potter was boring because we had seen that all before, written way better, in other movies/stories.

Isildur/Woman/Theo/Pelargir:  I'm starting to get bored and lose patience writing about this season, LOL.  This got the least screentime this season, though I surprisingly liked this subplot in the middle of the season, maybe because it was just simpler and I could at least understand why the characters were acting the way they were acting.  By the finale, though, Isildur's "love" for that random woman made him seem like a gullible teenager and totally lacking in morals to boot.  Theo still looks way too young to be considered a leader, despite his mother being such an important person (sarcasm).   

Dwarves: The season started with Durin mad at his dad and Disa wanting them to make up, and then they make up and dad puts on the ring and turns evil and Durin is mad at his dad again for other reasons and Disa now wants Durin to oppose his dad and then the dad dies and Durin is sad.  The effects of the dwarven ring was so over the top that it would be impossible to buy Durin ever using it or allowing others to use it, but you know he will.  This plotline was supposed to be emotional, but the Dwarven King was always such a jerk that I never bought the two Durins ever had a good relationship, so the King's "sacrifice" left me cold.  

Numenor: Leaving me cold was the consistent pattern for all the subplots.  I don't think any emotional moment landed this season except the death of Isildur's friend, which was promptly forgotten and served no purpose other than telling us Kemen was evil even though he was already a cartoon villain every time his mouth opened.  Numenor was another subplot that suffered from lack of development stemming all the way back to Season 1.  Political dramas require a lot of worldbuilding, but all we got were fickle crowds being swayed by whatever swooped in, whether that be an Eagle or a sea monster.  At the end of the day, Pharazon could clearly impose any dictatorial order and no one would oppose him, even the so-called passive "hero" Elendil.  I wanted to like and root for him, but the writers didn't give him anything to do to make us cheer for him.  The relationship with the daughter (who just seemed evil) was again so thinly drawn, that their rift wasn't sad at all.  

This show makes me sad because of the lost potential.  But I still found this season watchable enough, so the series didn't get worse.  I think the fault lies ultimately with the showrunners.  Cosmetic changes with a few new writers aren't going to cut it if the overarching story and character arcs are so poorly planned out despite having such rich source material.

Edited October 5 by Camera One

[astrohip]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

Galadriel and Sauron's sword fight felt contrived to me as well.  He could have killed her at so many points.  He could have used his mind tricks to compel her to give up the 9 rings.  

You make some good points. But one small correction here:

First, he wanted to win her over to his side, fair and square. He didn't want to mind-spell her. Second, he couldn't mind spell her, she was too strong, especially with the ring.

 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

three speaking characters - Celebrimbor, Sauron and the female smith.

The female smith was Mirdania, played by Amelia Kenworthy, in her first role out of drama school. She did a fantastic job.

#justiceformirdania

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, astrohip said:

First, he wanted to win her over to his side, fair and square. He didn't want to mind-spell her. 

I didn't realize that was their intent.  It was hard for me to tell what Sauron was genuinely thinking.

17 minutes ago, astrohip said:

The female smith was Mirdania, played by Amelia Kenworthy, in her first role out of drama school. She did a fantastic job.

Yes, she did a good job.  I kept forgetting her name, though it does sound nice.

[tkc]

An uneven or even problematic season for sure, in terms of storytelling. However, not without high points. Some observations:

1. They really wrote Sauron as Satan in this season. From appearing as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14, "Satan masquerades as an angel of light"), to being full of lies (John 8:44, "he is a liar and the father of lies"), to tempting those around him by appealing to their pride and promising to give them what they most desire (for example, Matt. 4:1-11, the story of the tempting of Jesus).

2. Charles Edwards knocked it out of the park with his portrayal of Celebrimbor. It was great all season long, but his death speech was amazing. So much more to work with than playing Martin Charteris in The Crown (or random Wayne Enterprises guy in Batman Begins).

3. The fandom's theory about Adar being Celeborn was thoroughly trolled by the showrunners:

Fandom: "We think Adar could be Celeborn!"

Showrunners: "You could be right! Look what happens when he wears Nenya!"

Fandom: "Yes, he's Celeborn!"

Showrunners: "Just kidding!" *stab*

Fandom: "No, but the ring can heal him!"

Showrunners: "Really?" *stab* *stab* *stab*

Fandom: "Galadriel will save him! Maybe Sauron will save him!"

Showrunners: *stab* *stab stab* *stab stab stab* ***STAB STAB STAB!!!***

Fandom: (single tear rolls down cheek)

[mrspidey]

21 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

No, not the same place.

That thing with Frodo happened on Amon Hen which was east of the Misty Mountains, southeast of Rohan, and not that far (in the grand scheme of things) from Gondor.

The Sauron/Galadriel fight was in Ost-in-Edhil in Eregion, west of the Misty Mountains and much further north.

Remember, Eregion is on the same side of the mountains as the "Speak friend and enter" door to Moria, while visiting Lorien and all that stuff that came after it (like the breaking of the Fellowship) was after going through Moria to the other side of the mountains.

Yeah, you're probably right, but comparing the scenes, it does look quite similar. 

[Quark]

This show is so utterly beautiful.

Yeah there were a couple of poor episodes, and it often looks like characters are able to teleport from one place to another, but damn it so visually stunning.

The music is also pretty spectacular.

That balrog scene was wow. Would have thought the dwarves would want to leave the mountain now though.

Looking forward to Season Three - love the dwarves.

[tennisgurl]

This show is such a weird one for me to categorize as far as how I feel about it. The things is does well, the battles, the acting, the look of it, the gorgeous locations, it does great, but the stuff that it struggles with, dialogue, characterization, pacing, its so frustrating. It just leaves me cold even as a admire it on a technical level, I always watch wishing it was living up to its true potential. This season was certainly an improvement over last season, it flowed much better, had a real climax, and much less awkward dialogue, but it still just refuses to really pull me totally in. 

To the shock of no one at all, the Stranger is, in fact, Gandalf. I sort of hope that his splitting with the Harfoots is the last we see of them, not because I dislike Nori and Poppy, but because they are even more separated from the greater plot then before now that they've separated from Gandalf. They served their narrative purpose being somewhat familiar faces in Middle Earth and introduced us to Gandalf, now I am fine with them leaving to do their own thing. 

Pharazon and his slimy son are the absolute worst, I hope they get eaten by the balrog. 

Awww of course Durin came to help Elrond, he really needed that win. He looked so gutted when the Orcs were throwing all of their knowledge away. Also, Arondir survived, which I guess isn't that surprising even if he did look pretty damn dead in the last episode. Its hard to kill an elf I guess! Especially when he has a name!

What exactly did Sauron say to the Orcs that got them to turn on their "father" so drastically? I bet they're already regretting that choice...

Celebrimbor got played so hard he helped doom his city, but at least he went out refusing to break and curing Sauron with his last breath, which did actually seem to rattle the asshole. 

I will come back for the next season, but I am really hoping that they can keep moving in a better direction. 

[JustHereForFood]

I could swear that Gandalf was confirmed as Gandalf in the last season's finale. Grand-Elf ... looks like some writer wanted their own "Hodor" moment.

I've always found the Balrog fascinating as this ancient evil lurking and appearing mysteriously from the dark, but what exactly is his deal? He just exists, without any food, or energy from the light? Did the Dwarves know about him before this episode and why are they so calm now, why does it look like he was dealt with with just some rocks falling on him, surely anyone would presume he survived, no? (I understand that they probably have budget for one Balrog scene per season, but they could have had some council about what to do about him.)

On 10/4/2024 at 7:30 AM, Aulty said:

The Balrog thing is like not going to the dentist with a tooth ache and expecting it to just go away.

LOL, yeah, basically this.

 

Did I miss explanation about Kemen going to the Southlands? He just suddenly appeared there, all smug and with punchable face. The characters in the south are my least favorite so he fits there.

 

I did a little happy dance when Adar was killed. Sorry, but it was hilarious that he was stabbed by one of his "children" who was repeatedly asking him not to let them all die last episode... only for that Orc to be killed by Sauron in turn. Peak of the episode for me.

 

On 10/4/2024 at 12:57 PM, Haleth said:

I've said before that I really want to like Elendil but he is sooo underdeveloped.  The actor is doing a good job with what he's given.  Please let the new writers make him more than a stock hero type.  Give him more to do than glower.

Yes, give him some hot scenes with Miriel. Ehm. Sorry, I haven't shipped anyone in a while and it shows.

 

On 10/4/2024 at 3:07 PM, Affogato said:

i wonder what someone who is unspoiled, (‘unsullied’ ) would think of this. I mean unspoiled except for maybe the peter jackson movies, without any need to bicker about the details of the fall of Numenor and where Eregion is and so on.  
 

Not sure if I count, I've read the 3 main books some 20 years ago and couldn't manage to reread them, but I love the movies. (And the Hobbit movies, despite being bored by that book.) No Silmarilion, or anything else. I liked it, but preferred the first season. These last few episodes seemed to pick up the pace, so I liked them more. Overall, I would rate this season as 6-7/10, the first one I guess 8/10. My main points of complain are not in the show itself, but in some parts of the fandom, like the Orc apologia in previous season, or people salivating over Sauron like some emo fuckboy.

Edited October 8 by JustHereForFood

[Harvey]

I feel the fight choreography in the show largely leaves something to be desired.  Arondir’s fight scenes are very good though. In s1 I recall a scene and the way he drew his arrows was like so graceful and natural… a minor thing like that looked impressive as hell. But as for the nig showdown scene with lady G and mr S, I feel it didn’t give me a sense of verisimilitude. It was missing something.

[Camera One]

I guess it takes a lot of skill to choreograph and direct a fight to the "death" that also highlights their latent primal attraction towards one another.  

Galadriel gave herself and the 9 rings up so those female elves she was leading through the tunnels would be saved/spared.  I find it hard to believe the orcs would keep their word, and Galadriel would trust them to not just attack them after she's gone.  We never see them again.  

[katha]

On 10/20/2024 at 6:54 PM, Camera One said:

I guess it takes a lot of skill to choreograph and direct a fight to the "death" that also highlights their latent primal attraction towards one another.  

Galadriel gave herself and the 9 rings up so those female elves she was leading through the tunnels would be saved/spared.  I find it hard to believe the orcs would keep their word, and Galadriel would trust them to not just attack them after she's gone.  We never see them again.  

Yeah, I thought that was total strategic folly. Walking with the Nine on her into a duel with Sauron. I can kinda see it in a "She's so obsessed with killing him, rational thinking flies out the window", but it didn't show her in a good light IMO. Again. They do need to take a look how they are writing her. 

[tv-talk]

I dont think the fight between Sauron and Galadriel was really a fight, he (it?) could have killed her at any point but had other motivations. I find it supremely annoying the show gives her and Arondir death scenes that arent. I mean of course we knew she wasnt dead, but why have her jump off a damn cliff in what should surely kill her? Very melodramatic given we know she is fine.

And to just have Arondir fine after he had been literally gutted by Adar? That was just ridiculous, no excuse whatsoever for that.