S01.E09: Crimson Sky

[paulvdb]

Quote

Mariko arrives in Osaka for the fight of her life. Blackthorne and Yabushige scramble to save their own heads as their options dwindle.

Premiere date: April 16, 2024

[paigow]

Ishido kills his own guards in a false flag op to blame Toranaga... which is what Crimson Sky was supposed to do anyway...  

[Raja]

I think Lord Ishido fell into the trap. Lady Mariko's mission being to show that he was not following the law in order to peel off the clans that might have been loyal to the Taiko's heir and the council. While it seemed that his fiancé Lady Ochiba was another who desperately wanted to tell someone enough of this ritual suicide,  live. To the point where the archers try to scare her back after sniping the honor guard commanders as they stepped forward to relieve the last fallen samurai. But maybe Lord Ishido was mad enough to kill because his plan A was spoiled. Unless another party got Lord Yabushige and the ninja.

A lord publicly agrees to second you and then doesn't show up? I wonder who would be seen out of favor? The 2/5th's nominally Christian leadership can claim the faith but how would the others see it

Getting a better view of the castle to me it seems that there is just too many interior walls for even the Dutch canon to make a difference. Breeching the first one doesn't get you anywhere except into the next kill zone.

Edited April 17 by Raja

[magdalene]

They managed to make Mariko's death even more of a tragic downer than in the original mini series.

[mledawn]

The scene with Mariko and Ochiba was well done by both actors. I enjoyed how Blackthorne was just a prop in that scene. 

It was nice to have the flashback with how Mariko met Father Alvito and to see him act so kindly towards her. It helps to understand their relationship.

I can't believe we've only got one episode left.

 

[ofmd]

6 hours ago, magdalene said:

They managed to make Mariko's death even more of a tragic downer than in the original mini series.

Idk, the way I remember it - which may be wrong - was far more trite than this. Essentially, she sacrificed herself to save Blackthorne's life because lurvvve.

I certainly would have wished for a different ending, but throughout the series, Mariko has been portrayed as a very dark character longing for death.

You know, if they had shown Mariko falling in love with the Anjin in this episode (instead of a long time ago, for no particular reason), I wouldn't have complained. It was the first time he showed true understanding for her and her culture and he was willing to act against everything he believed in, while the lord who had promised to second her failed to show up and her son refused her.

This was a riveting episode. Plus, poetry.

[DoctorAtomic]

I wasn't expecting Blackthorne and Yabu just to waltz into Osaka. I thought they'd be sneaking around. I guess it's smarter to come in and pretend you're rogue. Easier to let the ninjas in too. 

Their pairing is as entertaining as I was hoping. I'll give Blackthorne some credit. He shut up and paid attention in the meeting. Even though he talked trash to the catholic regent. 

Not as much trash as Mariko was slinging around! I got your permit right here! I know they weren't going to kill her, but still. She at least shamed the other regents. 

Blackthorne got out of there in a hurry when Mariko said it was time to go. I don't care what the year is, no dude wants to be in the room when two women going at it. 

I wasn't expecting Blackthorne to step up and second Mariko. I assumed it was a ruse, but it looked like she was going to go through with it. I don't think it would have worked if she let Blackthorne in on it.

12 hours ago, Raja said:

Unless another party got Lord Yabushige and the ninja.

I don't know. When the other guy came up to Yabu, he said, "Ishido accepts your offer, but you have to do something." I would think that was to let the ninjas in. Subcontract out the kidnapping. 

12 hours ago, Raja said:

Getting a better view of the castle to me it seems that there is just too many interior walls for even the Dutch canon to make a difference.

We know the siege of the castle working in real life. I don't know if it's going to be combined here into the show, but it actually happened. 

 

[AimingforYoko]

If Anna Sawai is not nominated for an Emmy, just end the whole thing. Came for Hiroyuki Sanada, extremely happy to discover this transcendent actress. What a masterclass in acting with just eyes and facial expressions.

[magdalene]

5 hours ago, ofmd said:

dk, the way I remember it - which may be wrong - was far more trite than this. Essentially, she sacrificed herself to save Blackthorne's life because lurvvve.

The way I remember it the old mini-series was mostly a vehicle for the lead actor who was according to my mother a very big deal back then with all the Japanese cast there to support him. That there was even that much Japanese focus made it probably quite special for the time.

The new adaptation is much more Japanese focused and Mariko is a main character. It's about her duty, her tragedy, her sacrifice.  None of these have anything to do with Blackthorne. She is not dying for his love. He is her lover but she is not the "love interest".

[Constantinople]

Having someone chop your head off after you've mortally wounded yourself by intentional disembowelment isn't some Get of Hell Free Card, so I don't know what that was all about.

I also don't know what the hell Blackthorne was thinking offering to be her second. Unless he had some serious beginner's luck, it likely would have been uglier than when young Toranaga served as the second for the opponent he defeated in battle. Did Blackthorne practice decapitating watermelons in between episodes?

And if Mariko is concerned about her family's name or whatever, what in the  hell is she doing sleeping with Blackthorne in Osaka? If that got out, the reaction would be "What do you expect from the daughter of a traitor?"

And could Blackthorne put on some minimal game face when he meets with people like Ishido instead of looked by like dope all the time?

[MJ Frog]

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I assumed it was a ruse, but it looked like she was going to go through with it.

It absolutely was not a ruse. She fully intended to do it, she wanted to do it, and that was the whole reason Toranaga sent her there. Which made Blackthorne's acting as her second all the more moving -- he wanted her to suffer as little as possible, as well as earnestly believing that this would keep her from commiting a mortal sin, even as he committed one himself (and had probably done so many times before).

I don't know that the show did the best job of showing this, but I always felt that Mariko was drawn to him because, as uncivilized as he seemed to her, he was still far kinder to her than any of the other men. And while cultural differences may have kept him from fully "seeing" her -- I think even when he offered to be her second he was not capable of really understanding why she was doing what she was doing -- he respected and fully accepted her as she was. Even without fully understanding. And that goes a long way towards getting behind that eightfold wall.

Got my copy of the book today. Looking forward to starting it.

Edited April 17 by MJ Frog
Better word choice.

[Haleth]

Omigosh, the tension in the seppuko scene was terrible.  I was riveted and horrified, but kept waiting for something/someone to stop her.  I was shocked Blackthorne said he would second her.  (Despite this I still don't see the attraction between them.)  Then she dies anyway, fulfilling her mission.  What a sad episode.

Anna Sawai and Fumi Nikaidô (Lady Ochiba) were superb in their scenes.  Now there is a relationship that makes sense.  They break my heart.

8 hours ago, magdalene said:

The way I remember it the old mini-series was mostly a vehicle for the lead actor who was according to my mother a very big deal back then with all the Japanese cast there to support him.

Ouch.  I feel old.  Yeah, Richard Chamberlain was a very big deal then.  I watched the series and read the book but really am enjoying this version with the focus on Toranaga and Mariko instead of Blackthorne.  They are far more interesting characters.

[Raja]

53 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Omigosh, the tension in the seppuko scene was terrible.  I was riveted and horrified, but kept waiting for something/someone to stop her.  I was shocked Blackthorne said he would second her.  (Despite this I still don't see the attraction between them.)  Then she dies anyway, fulfilling her mission.  What a sad episode.

I would think that Lady Ochiba used her influence to stop the Regent from showing up along with anybody else of proper rank to second Lady Mariko. That the lady hostages of the court and her son sat there sure made it look like she was going to stab her heart and not go through with the disembowelment. Standards and practices, the star not wanting a body double for nudity or the custom for the women of that day? I don't feel like researching.

So if we are to believe she was going to go through with her mortal sin  for the cultural tradition that she spent her entire life and not just her adult life living with then Blackthorne, not as easily influenced by the ranking samurai was the only one willing to limit her pain as much as possible.

[Constantinople]

Previously Ochiba said Toranaga was responsible for her father's assassination but never explained why.

Ochiba had several scenes in this episode, including two with Mariko who is simultaneously Ochiba's former BFF, the daughter of the man who killed Ochiba's father, and the emissary of Toranaga. Yet there was still no explanation for why Ochiba suspects Toranaga conspired with Mariko's father, or manipulated Mariko's father, to kill Ochiba's father.

It's disappointing.

[Raja]

7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Previously Ochiba said Toranaga was responsible for her father's assassination but never explained why.

Ochiba had several scenes in this episode, including two with Mariko who is simultaneously Ochiba's former BFF, the daughter of the man who killed Ochiba's father, and the emissary of Toranaga. Yet there was still no explanation for why Ochiba suspects Toranaga conspired with Mariko's father, or manipulated Mariko's father, to kill Ochiba's father.

It's disappointing.

Unless Toranaga airs it out in the finale I doubt if we get much more than the earlier flashback scenes of showing Lord Toranaga in Lord Akechi's ear much like Lady Ochiba was later in Lord Ishido's. That manipulative power seems to be Toranaga's super power

[DoctorAtomic]

11 hours ago, magdalene said:

The way I remember it the old mini-series was mostly a vehicle for the lead actor who was according to my mother a very big deal back then with all the Japanese cast there to support him.

Richard Chamberlain was THE guy back then. He was in all the miniseries and then some. I know I watched Shogun as a kid, but I don't remember it. I'm not surprised that they would have built the entire show around him. And he was gay af but no one knew back then! 

8 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

And that goes a long way towards getting behind that eightfold wall.

Oh, I clapped for Blackthorne when he stepped up. I thought it was the best scene in the show.  He didn't look so confident with the sword that he was going to do it one shot to me. I thought she stalled just a little bit. I don't doubt she would have done it, but I do think the primary motivation was to force Ishido's hand. 

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Unless Toranaga airs it out in the finale I doubt if we get much more than the earlier flashback scenes of showing Lord Toranaga in Lord Akechi's ear much like Lady Ochiba was later in Lord Ishido's.

Anyone can look up what happened. I don't think it's necessary to explain it out here either. Basically, the hand of the king killed the king because the king went nuts. That's about it. 

[paigow]

28 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Anyone can look up what happened. I don't think it's necessary to explain it out here either. Basically, the hand of the king killed the king because the king went nuts. That's about it. 

Hopefully, George Lucas was not a role model for any of these writers... so that nobody knows who their REAL father is / was....

[Raja]

46 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Anyone can look up what happened. I don't think it's necessary to explain it out here either. Basically, the hand of the king killed the king because the king went nuts. That's about it. 

I do wonder how much can depend upon the audience knowing the novel, the 80's miniseries or the story of their historical analogs?. We were shown him killing Buddhist Priest. But then again we saw Lord Omi just summarily execute a Christian for coming up to Blackthorne in the first episode and random call up for prisoners to be executed. So the Oda Nounaga character, Lady Ochiba's father,  didn't look any more nuts than other samurai. 

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Richard Chamberlain was THE guy back then. He was in all the miniseries and then some. I know I watched Shogun as a kid, but I don't remember it.

He was the king of the miniseries in those days. His naughty priest follow-up The Thorn Birds was an even bigger hit, I think. I also watched Shogun when I was a kid and don't remember a god. damn. thing. So I have no idea where this is going.

[Raja]

21 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

He was the king of the miniseries in those days. His naughty priest follow-up The Thorn Birds was an even bigger hit, I think. I also watched Shogun when I was a kid and don't remember a god. damn. thing. So I have no idea where this is going.

TV distribution was a very different thing back then. I had just started school and I wasn't giving that much time to something I had little interest in at the time. And the only way to enjoy a show like we do now is to invest in VHS tapes and dedicate to the show above the 2 other network shows for that week. And then the Japanese wasn't subtitled until a later VHS release so we only understood what Lady Mariko translated. I can only really remember the stuff around the gardener, Lady Fuji and the bird. But I now know some of the real history that formed the basis for the fiction.

Edited April 17 by Raja

[tallykat]

OMG! I completely forgot that Mariko sacrificed herself. I watched the original miniseries (OM), but honestly now can't remember a thing about it, except the scene where Blackthorne tosses his kimono because the nasty sailor touched it. Also, as so many have pointed out, it was all from Anjin's perspective. I always felt that Toronaga did protest too much about being Shogun in the OM, that he was always doing exactly what he needed to be Shogun. But in this one, he has gotten so much more character development. Shrewd, yes, but I still get the feeling that he wants what is best for Japan and the heir. Otherwise, why wouldn't he have accepted sole regency? But then, his rationale at that time made sense as well--he and the heir would have had too many enemies. It all just makes me want to read the book. My husband keeps asking why they did this or that...like the tea ceremony or the difference between a wife and a concubine--for the Japanese. I mean, would the son/daughter of your wife have a higher standing that the son/daughter of a concubine? Except the heir is the son of a concubine and sure, there's no other heir, but in England, they would skip to the brother of the king and his kids before they would put an illegitimate heir on the throne. And the wife of the Lord would not be so kindly towards a concubine in Western culture. It really has made me want to read to book to have all these details fleshed out.

I think that women who committed seppuku stabbed themselves in the heart rather than disemboweled themselves. I remember that from the OM. As for Mariko being condemned to hell for suicide and maybe not if she had a second kill her instead, being Catholic, I know we have some crazy loop holes for that kind of stuff so I wouldn't doubt that the offense of attempting suicide may not be a serious as actually doing it, because if you were only attempting to kill yourself, you could fail or change your mind. But at least you could have a moment where you could repent of the sin. While Blackthorne may have dispatched a man or two in his life, has he really killed anyone in cold blood? Would he claim past deaths as self-defense? Or justifiable war? Would this be a cold-blooded murder? If nothing else, I guess we would call it euthanasia. Still frowned on by the church.

Sorry for going on. It's my first post. Don't know why I didn't think of coming here 9 weeks ago. I can't wait for the finale, although I suppose I will have to do just that. 

We will miss you, Mariko! You did your family and your lord proud!

Edited April 17 by tallykat

[Raja]

11 minutes ago, tallykat said:

While Blackthorne may have dispatched a man or two in his life, has he really killed anyone in cold blood? Would he claim past deaths as self-defense? Or justifiable war? Would this be a cold-blooded murder? If nothing else, I guess we would call it euthanasia. Still frowned on by the church.

I think that normally, having seen more TV PG characters than movies, the cowboy hands a loaded pistol for the guy to euthanize himself. But that is how 1950s up audiences would see it.   I would think stabbing yourself would leave the victim more like a horse than a gut shot cowboy.  More realistic war movies of the era would show that Korean War or WWII soldier euthanize a mate.

Added to the scars shown when he was washed  when watching  Anjin fight for the first time with his rapid reloads during combat that wasn't his first rodeo.

[ofmd]

Mariko has, from the start, been shown as someone who wanted to die, who would have committed seppuku in a heartbeat, had not her husband, and later Toranaga, forbidden her to do so. She was focused on two things: on dying and on helping the cause/ her liege lord/ taking revenge (hard to tell those things apart), preferably both at the same time. I do wish they had found a way for her to live on, but the show had built no foundation whatsoever for that, so I'm surprised anyone would doubt she would go through with it. (I totally effed up tenses, sorry.)

I appreciate the show never tricked the viewer into believing that could change. I do hope Fuji will find a cause to live though.

ETA: Apparently, Mariko is based on a real person:

https://www.japanesewiki.com/person/Garasha (Gracia) HOSOKAWA.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosokawa_Gracia

I was going to ask if we would get to hear Mariko's death poem; here is the real one:

'A flower is most beautiful when it knows the time to fall. People are like flowers, I will die without hesitation.'

Edited April 17 by ofmd

[Auntie Anxiety]

I want to love this show. I really do. I’ve watched all the episodes. The production values are terrific, the acting is excellent (except for the actor who plays Blackthorne, who is meh) and trying to understand the culture of the time is fascinating, but I have absolutely no emotional connection to any of the characters. None. I seem to be in the minority, but that’s where I sit.

[mledawn]

15 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I also don't know what the hell Blackthorne was thinking offering to be her second. Unless he had some serious beginner's luck, it likely would have been uglier than when young Toranaga served as the second for the opponent he defeated in battle. Did Blackthorne practice decapitating watermelons in between episodes?

THIS. All I could think was why the hell did he volunteer when he has absolutely no idea how to use the sword properly!

[Pi237]

There goes the only character I was really interested in. I didn’t see it coming because I never saw the original or read the book. So, I was all-Nooooo!  whew.  Nooooo! 
 

I hope Blackthorn learned enough Japanese to get by because the only interpreter he could trust is gone now. 
 

I’d never survive this culture. They’re all a bit too quick to kill themselves out of honor or duty. F that.

 

[mledawn]

My memory of the book is a bit muddy but from what I recall, Mariko's father and Toronaga were pals and both in on the plot to kill the mad king (Ochiba's father). 

Flash forward, Toronaga knew Ishido would not let the hostages leave, he knew Mariko wanted to die - it was the perfect mission for her.

Apparently women would not disembowel themselves, they would set up their knife and fall on it and rely upon the second to complete the job (roughly summarised from the official podcast). My hope for Mariko and Blackthorne both was that the sword was sharp and Blackthorne was strong enough to compensate for what would certainly have been shady technique.

I didn't see Fujiko amongst the women in the episode, which was odd. 

Edited April 17 by mledawn

[Raja]

17 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I also don't know what the hell Blackthorne was thinking offering to be her second. Unless he had some serious beginner's luck, it likely would have been uglier than when young Toranaga served as the second for the opponent he defeated in battle. Did Blackthorne practice decapitating watermelons in between episodes?

Judging by his performance in combat and physical strength I am betting that while not as practiced as a 12 year old lord that physics would trump over finely tuned technique.

1 hour ago, mledawn said:

I didn't see Fujiko amongst the women in the episode, which was odd. 

I think Lady Mariko explained that Lady Fuji remained behind in the fishing village to close up the Anjin's affairs there. I for one didn't want to see her mourning her grandfather

Edited April 17 by Raja

[MJ Frog]

15 minutes ago, Raja said:

Judging by his performance in combat and physical strength I am betting that while not as practiced as a 12 year old lord that physics would trump over finely tuned technique.

Agree. Plus, it was him or nobody.

Nothing says love like a well-timed beheading.

[Jodithgrace]

I am late to the party. I was away (in Japan, appropriately enough) and waited to watch it until I returned. I’ve read the book a few times, and I’m currently reading it now. I’m also old enough to have watched the miniseries a time or two.

1. I really don’t like the actor playing Blackthorn. His looks don’t appeal to me and this version left out some significant steps that his character goes through to understand Japanese culture, including a near seppuku. So, no wonder he seems so clueless most of the time.

2. They left out the entire romance! People don’t see her attraction to Blackthorn, but believe me, in the book it is well supported.

3. Women commit seppuku by stabbing themselves in the throat, so that was accurate. 

4. I don’t get the part where Toranaga sets Blackthorn free to side with Yabu. That never happens, and seems to negate all of the Anjin and Toranaga relationship which is such an integral part of the book. 

5. This miniseries is gorgeous and well acted by everyone except Blackthorn, though that might be the writing, since they portray him as a doofus most of the time. I love the subtitles and the status given to the female characters, which was in the book, but often gets lost in a series.

6. I am disappointed in all the changes, but have enjoyed watching it, especially since I have been to Osaka castle and am a fan of all things Japanese. 
 

 

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Raja said:

I think that normally, having seen more TV PG characters than movies, the cowboy hands a loaded pistol for the guy to euthanize himself.

Bourne does it for dudes that he hates....

 

[KittyQ]

2 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

2. They left out the entire romance! People don’t see her attraction to Blackthorn, but believe me, in the book it is well supported.

Yes! I reread the book not long ago and the romance between them was much more emphasized than what was seen in this version. In addition to Blackthorn's attraction to Mariko, he learned a great deal from her about Japanese culture and language.

It is clearer in the book, and in my recollection, the original miniseries that Blackthorn adopts more Japanese ways, to the point that he no longer wanted to associate with his shipmates and started to see them as barbarians. While Richard Chamberlain was the most well-known actor and a big draw for the series, his character is only nominally the primary one, because Toranaga is the person who is driving the plot (in both senses of the word).

[CailynA]

4 hours ago, mledawn said:

My memory of the book is a bit muddy but from what I recall, Mariko's father and Toronaga were pals and both in on the plot to kill the mad king (Ochiba's father). 

Flash forward, Toronaga knew Ishido would not let the hostages leave, he knew Mariko wanted to die - it was the perfect mission for her.

Apparently women would not disembowel themselves, they would set up their knife and fall on it and rely upon the second to complete the job (roughly summarised from the official podcast). My hope for Mariko and Blackthorne both was that the sword was sharp and Blackthorne was strong enough to compensate for what would certainly have been shady technique.

I didn't see Fujiko amongst the women in the episode, which was odd. 

The book has the ladies slitting their throats to commit seppuku and I just read an article earlier that said the same thing. https://screenrant.com/shogun-show-seppuku-historical-accuracy-expert-review/ Then I found another article that says women had a choice between heart and throat. https://time.com/6965135/shogun-episode-9-seppuku/

 

I'm currently reading the book and am about 375 pages through Volume 1. I think I'm going to have to rewatch the series after I finish reading. I'm enjoying both so much.

[aghst]

It seems the mission Toranaga gave Mariko was to martyr herself.

Force Ishido to let her go or to kill her.  Ishido was never going to let her go so he sent in Shinobi.

So they must really believe in the after life, to give up life so easily for their lord, like the guards whom Mariko casually sent to their deaths or the first two guards for Ishido, asking for permits knowing they were going to get their throats cut.

So the Catholic influence, even though the after life is a big part of their belief system as well, is to disapprove of suicide.

Yet the Catholic Regents are willing to kill casually as well and while they are aghast that Mariko is going to going to take her own life.

So why has Mariko been anguished all her life about the death of her family or Ochiba holding a grudge about her father?

Aren't they suppose to have a more zen view of life and death?  Isn't the glorious after life going to make everything better?

[Constantinople]

After seeing this episode, Hiromatsu's death seems even more pointless.

The only one buying Toranaga's ruse were his own men and Father Alvito. Even if Ishido briefly bought it, Toranaga's emissary Mariko may as well have said "It's on bro!" to Ishido when she was in Osaka.

Toranaga already got a 49 day timeout thanks to Nagakado's slip and fall. He didn't get an extension for Hiromatsu's death. Pretending to give up only made his men muttinous, which led to the Hiromatsu debacle. But if Toranaga didn't pretend, or stopped pretending after he had the 49 days, his men wouldn't be multinous and there's no need to off Hiromatsu.

Toranaga could just as easily used the 49 day timeout, not pretend to give up, send Mariko on her mission near the end of the 49 day period, and still have his righthand man. A righthand man he'll need very much in any upcoming battle.

[ofmd]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

Yet the Catholic Regents are willing to kill casually as well ...

 

I mean, look at what they did to the Inca and the Aztecs. That was their MO and they were fairly restrained in Japan because that civilization was not as technologically disadvantaged as expected.

>>So why has Mariko been anguished all her life about the death of her family

Imho, it had as much to do with pride and loss of status as with grief, perceived injustice etc. I mean, the whole previous episode was about accepting or hating fate...

As for the traditional Japanese religion, I hope we'll hear someone with more knowledge explain, but I think it was more like Shintoism, not big on the after life, more a pantheistic thing. (I'm sure my grasp is lacking.)

I do think there must be more cognitive dissonance than for the average Catholic or Christian, trying to reconcile the two cultures.

Edited April 18 by ofmd

[Raja]

9 hours ago, aghst said:

So they must really believe in the after life, to give up life so easily for their lord, like the guards whom Mariko casually sent to their deaths or the first two guards for Ishido, asking for permits knowing they were going to get their throats cut.

I don't know if it is anything more than the person who joins the Secret Service knowing that one day he might get called upon to use his body to shield the person in his charge. Being a samurai, even a lower ranked Sergeant equivalent means with great power there also comes great responsibility when that day arrives.

9 hours ago, aghst said:

So why has Mariko been anguished all her life about the death of her family or Ochiba holding a grudge about her father?

 

5 hours ago, ofmd said:

Imho, it had as much to do with pride and loss of status as with grief, perceived injustice etc. I mean, the whole previous episode was about accepting or hating fate...

For a while I have thought Lady Mariko's beef was that her father married her off down a level. When  Lady Ochiba and her where at the top level where rank has its privileges. Some guy in a fishing village can be just killed by a governor's nephew serving as a mayor but not those on what is now the regent to Shogun and Emperor level.

Maybe if it is in the novel but when Mariko identified herself by her father's and not her husband's name does that mean they were divorced as she took on Lord Toranaga's commission? 

[DoctorAtomic]

14 hours ago, KittyQ said:

Blackthorn adopts more Japanese ways, to the point that he no longer wanted to associate with his shipmates and started to see them as barbarians.

To be fair, they did have that scene in the series. I don't think we needed more than that. Invariably, remembering the size of the book, you've only got limited tv time, so you're going to have to cut some. They could have done a little more to show Blackthorne assimilating more. In this episode, they kind of did, but I think they just needed to show him being a little more attentive overall. 

I don't know if they needed more of the romance, but I'm not going to argue too hard. Mariko was way buttoned up about her eightfold fence, so we're not going to see anything overt here. I thought she was clearly hot for him. They shot the scene in the tea house perfectly. She booked it out of there because she was *this close* to jumping him. 

It seemed to me that this show leaned way more into the Japanese characters than going with the typical White Savior, which is the right call. That's going to shove him aside a lot.

5 hours ago, ofmd said:

As for the traditional Japanese religion, I hope we'll hear someone with more knowledge explain, but I think it was more like Shintoism

Now, it's a mash of all sorts. There's still christians around, buddhists, shino. Japanese aren't 'structurally' religious like the catholics. In WWII Shinto had grown to prominence. Even here in 1600, you see Toranaga at the torii, but that's really the extent of it. There's still torii all over the place, but people don't go to church every Sunday. 

 

 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Toranaga is lucky that Ishido is truly the biggest moron in the whole of Japan. The plot was basically "Why don't the hostages just ask to leave, are they stupid?". The idea that every noble family in Osaka would be up in arms if Ishido of the Idiots called Mariko's bluff is beyond laughable. These people live in a society where taking hostages is considered a perfectly normal move in the game of thrones, so to speak. Tokugawa Ieyasu himself spent years as a hostage when he was a child. Saying it out loud doesn't change the reality of the situation - that might makes right and taking hostages is considered fair game.

Ishido allowing the "hostages" to have guards with full armor while his own men were unarmored was pretty funny in a so bad it's good kind of way.

On 4/18/2024 at 9:25 AM, Constantinople said:

After seeing this episode, Hiromatsu's death seems even more pointless.

Typical cheap twist. Subvert the expectations and all that jazz. If anything, Toranaga pretending to be beaten makes it less likely that the families of the hostages will flock to his side now or dare to demand their freedom from Ishido of the Idiots.

What happened to Ochiba's burning hatred for Toranaga? In the last two episodes she is all "yeah, whatever, boys playing their games of war, I have better things to do"? Her bond with Mariko was portrayed well but her behavior as the power behind the throne seems rather inconsistent.

The show is pretty good in terms of characterization. Political intrigue... not so much.

[Raja]

4 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Ishido allowing the "hostages" to have guards with full armor while his own men were unarmored was pretty funny in a so bad it's good kind of way.

All I got is that Lady Mariko was signaling that she would lead a fight meanwhile the palace guard had to pretend that we are just police here there is no battle.

[tennisgurl]

Damn, I am not familiar with the book (although its now on my To Read list) or the miniseries, so I really am shocked to lose Mariko. I kept waiting for them to give her the chance to pull back at the last second and then it seemed like everything was working out, and then, boom. Anna Sawai is an exceptional actress, she is able to say so much in just a slight gesture or facial expression. The tension throughout the almost seppuku was so brutal, the acting from everyone was excellent. I know there is only one episode left, but its going to be sad having to watch the finale without her. At least she went out with dignity, making her family proud. 

This was probably my favorite episode of the show.

[Tom Holmberg]

On 4/17/2024 at 11:47 AM, MJ Frog said:

He was the king of the miniseries in those days. His naughty priest follow-up The Thorn Birds was an even bigger hit, I think

And "The Count of Monte Cristo" and "Centennial". Apparently there weren't a lot of actors back then. 😉

[pasdetrois]

On 4/17/2024 at 6:36 PM, Jodithgrace said:

really don’t like the actor playing Blackthorn.

He does seem to spend a lot of time with a puzzled look on his face. I think the director struggled with how to include the character without taking too much screen time from the large cast of important Japanese characters.

Random: the actor's voice is similar to the late Richard Burton's.

[Haleth]

42 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

andom: the actor's voice is similar to the late Richard Burton's.

I thought so too!

[Helena Dax]

I read once that Japanese are shintoists in life and Buddhist in death (Christians aside, of course).

I can't understand the mentions of White Saviours here. Blackthorne isn't one, not here, not in the original series and not in the book. He's one of Toranaga's birds of prey. Of course, westerners are supposed to learn about Japan through his eyes, since the book was written way before the Internet and the popularity of anime/manga and most people in the Western world would barely know anything about Japan, but that's all.

Mariko was one of my favourite characters so I'm going to miss her.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think the prevailing opinion is that this version of Shogun did *not* go the white savior route, which we've seen in the original and of course far too much in other media. 

[MJ Frog]

I don't remember the original series well enough to say whether Blackthorne was portrayed as a white savior or not but, in keeping with my recent kick of all things Shogun, I have gotten a copy of the old series on Blu-ray.

I will say that the story of the man Blackthorne is based on is pretty interesting and well worth telling. He became someone of considerable importance to Tokugawa and was given the position of samurai, among other things.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I don't remember the original series well enough to say whether Blackthorne was portrayed as a white savior or not but, in keeping with my recent kick of all things Shogun, I have gotten a copy of the old series on Blu-ray.

I will say that the story of the man Blackthorne is based on is pretty interesting and well worth telling. He became someone of considerable importance to Tokugawa and was given the position of samurai, among other things.

As hatamoto is Anjin not a samurai? As opposed to savior I think the "yellow fever"  of novel Blackthorne and 1980 Pretty Richard checking out his consort's wounds and the perceived romance with Lady Mariko would be the differences between the adaptations and the historical novel 

[MJ Frog]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

As hatamoto is Anjin not a samurai?

Having just looked it up, I believe it is a level of samurai. Didn't know that -- I thought it was an honor that would have been bestowed on Blackthorne sometime after the novel took place, as a reward for his services to the Shogun, all the more notable for his being a westerner. Shows you what I know!

Edited May 15 by MJ Frog
a comma

[North of Eden]

Per damn angry right now.Wanted my John & Marika happy ending!