S04.E06: Part 6

[Penman61]

Aren't all circles flat? 

[Lassus]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Things ended up playing out somewhat the way I expected, more or less. We have a logical (if pretty wild) explanation as to why Annie and the scientists died and they were just human stories about cover ups and revenge, but a lot of ambiguity of whether more supernatural things are happening as well. The crimes themselves were pretty crazy but mundane, while the ghosts were more attached to the characterization stuff.

This is also a great description of what happened in the lauded (and rightfully so, IMO, I did love it) first season.  A shitty, demented child abuser brought about by shitty people and things and coverups happening, and the mysticism was attached to the characterization of Cole and his opposite cultist halfwits.

[peeayebee]

Girl power!

Can't say I'm all that satisfied with this season. There were some things I really liked. Jodie Foster for one. I wouldn't begrudge her an Emmy.

I did appreciate that the murder mysteries were answered. That's something. I was getting worried that Rose was going to end up being responsible for someone's death. Whew!

5 hours ago, violet and green said:

Someone said that John Hawkes said somewhere that his character Hank put it there.

I did read that he said Hank had cut out Annie's tongue, but not that he put it under the table at the research center. Maybe I missed that part of the interview. Anyway, as others said, when would he have put it there? Also, after cutting out her tongue, what did he do with it for all that time? He must have frozen it, but why would he even keep it? I don't know if these questions can be adequately answered. 

 

19 minutes ago, aghst said:

Clark saying time is a flat circle at the end seemed like a line that was forced in at that point.

Yeah, I really hated when he said that. 

Quote

Then there's the symmetry of Pete putting his father into a hole in the ice, after Hank pulled him out of a hole in the ice when he was a boy.

That was very nice symmetry.

Didn't the video on Annie's phone show her in the ice caves and then being attacked? But we saw her being attacked and killed in the lab. What don't I get?

In the FB of Navarro shooting Wheeler, we hear a baby cry. Is it possible that Danvers adopted the baby, and this is Holden? Doesn't seem like it, and yet what was the point of hearing the baby cry?

Also, what kind of rinky-dink police department does Ennis have when they don't do ballistics tests on the gun that Wheeler died by?

In FBs, did we see Holden playing peek-a-boo with Danvers? If so, is that why Navarro covered one of Danvers' eyes when she said Holden said he sees her? I know we saw the stuffed polar bear and the 'real' one missing an eye, but I don't get the meaning of this all.

When Danvers is laying down, she pulls a cross necklace out of her hair and tosses it away. (I assume it got caught up in her hair when she fell thru the ice in the cave.) In an earlier ep we see Navarro find a cross necklace in her car and throw it out the window. What does this mean to you all? That, at least in those moments, neither Navarro nor Danvers believes in God? They are not spiritual until the end of the show?

Stupid character decisions:

- Not taking a rope with you when you go into an ice cave.
- Navarro forcing Clark to listen to the sounds of Annie screaming as she was being killed. Granted, I know Navarro was in a bad place, blah blah blah. But I disliked this quite a lot.

 

[Enigma X]

I liked the cast (not just Foster), the mysticism, the Annie storyline, and the setting. The Tsalal storyline was promising, but I hated the conclusion to that.

[Lassus]

11 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Didn't the video on Annie's phone show her in the ice caves and then being attacked? But we saw her being attacked and killed in the lab. What don't I get?

That portion of the lab was in a (secret) ice cave below the lab.

Edited February 19 by Lassus

[Lassus]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

One of the more prominent ones was that the science put forth as supplying the central motivation for the 1st murder, and thus subsequent murders, is nonsensical.

You're certainly allowed not to like it, but this criticism is a bit odd to me because the science was supposed to be world-changing enough for scientists to murder over it.  The story needs for that science to be beyond real-world sense.  You may not like it, but to me it's like discarding Ocean's 11 for the odder, reality-stretching bits in that or any other non-documentary film.

[peeayebee]

53 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I did read that he said Hank had cut out Annie's tongue, but not that he put it under the table at the research center. Maybe I missed that part of the interview. Anyway, as others said, when would he have put it there? Also, after cutting out her tongue, what did he do with it for all that time? He must have frozen it, but why would he even keep it? I don't know if these questions can be adequately answered. 

Quoting myself to say that I read an interview (posted in the Media thread) with Issa Lopez where she offers one possible explanation: The scientists killed Annie and called the mine to clean it up. Hank was sent. He dumps Annie's body where protests have been in order to make it look like it was connected. He abuses the body, kicking it and cutting out the tongue, to continue with that ruse. The women of the village find the tongue and keep it as an act of reverence, keeping it in a freezer. When they come to Tsalal to get the scientists, "they leave the tongue as a sign that now is the time of the truth of storytelling." I accept this answer.

[Anela]

I hope that Navarro is still alive, and hiding out somewhere.  She was the one who recorded the guy’s confession about their work, poisoning the people and wildlife.  
So, she wouldn’t want to be answering questions about how he got away.  
I feel no sympathy for the men who killed Annie, to protect their work.  Assholes.  

[Snazzy Daisy]

This season's biggest mistakes:

• Lack of investigation.
• Lack of concern for believability.
• Identifying itself as True Detective.

When it comes to Annie’s case, it’s an obvious rip-off of Wind River. It’s so predictable since episode one.

Lack of investigative work throughout this season is one thing. To have Raymond Clark telling the viewers what happened to Annie instead of Danvers and Navarro piecing it all together is just lazy writing. Then they torture Raymond (while making themselves some snacks) without trying to find out first whether he’s a witness or a suspect? It’s absurd.

Issa López really goes overboard with S01 references with no pay-off. Yeah, it’s totally believable for Raymond to blurt out that particular philosophical phrase from S01 while being questioned. Context be damned.

🙄🙄🙄

[violet and green]

7 hours ago, Lassus said:

The star-shaped instrument, the blood.

Not sure it's entirely fair to include this, unless you're taking issue with the entire right-to-die movement for the cognitive, debilitated, terminally ill.  (which, if you are, fine, but it's not the same as Julia)

Also, am I imagining it, but wasn't there a hotline warning after EVERY episode?

The reason I say "as told by Rose" is that her language in the last episode, as she tells Prior that putting his father's body into the water is not the worst of it over, as he might be imagining. The implication was she maybe lied about Travis killing himself. (Who knows with this show.)

There was no warning or hotline number for me, which is why I mentioned it.

13 minutes ago, violet and green said:

The star-shaped instrument, the blood.

The implement does not tell them all of the scientists murdered her.

edit to add: There was no blood. Blair found the instrument 6 years after Annie's death. (Which, also, was in the cave system and not in the laboratory where the flashback showed it happening, and which, also, occurred in the video we saw mutliple times, after a blackout.)

Edited February 19 by violet and green

[RedDelicious]

I would have liked to have seen Annie's brother get closure from Navarro as part of what we were shown onscreen, even if it was played over with music. 

[violet and green]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I don't think Navarro's suicide was especially ambiguous; her ghostly appearance in full winter trooper apparel on the porch, month's later, is pretty blatant, and as you rightly note, highly romanticized. Really, really, dumb, and if the implication is that this is how this particular native culture treats the phenomena of suicide of young, physically healthy, people, I'm pretty skeptical.

From wiki: When questioned over the final scene, López said, "For me as an audience member, Navarro is alive. She went out and had her walkabout in a way in the ice, because now she can do that, and find a way back. But it is true that no one ever leaves Ennis... or anywhere."[5] Reis said, "I think she just goes off into a place where she can be herself without any responsibilities. And if she did either walk into the ice like her sister or stay around, the only person she would ever come back to see, whether it's in the spirit world or physical world, would be Danvers."[6]

It didn't seem ambiguous to me, either, in a show that went out of its way to include multiple ghosts, and references to the other side.

[Anela]

I really thought she was alive, and this is why I really don’t like ambiguous endings.  She found the truth, but she let a man take his own life, after confessing about the murder, and the mines killing people. I didn’t think that Danvers saying “you won’t find her on the ice” meant that her spirit was around.  I thought it was clear that she didn’t follow in her sister’s footsteps.  
 

Edited February 19 by Anela

[Bannon]

3 hours ago, Lassus said:

You're certainly allowed not to like it, but this criticism is a bit odd to me because the science was supposed to be world-changing enough for scientists to murder over it.  The story needs for that science to be beyond real-world sense.  You may not like it, but to me it's like discarding Ocean's 11 for the odder, reality-stretching bits in that or any other non-documentary film.

The most nonsensical part was the notion that pollution from mining was needed to thaw the permafrost sufficiently to recover ancient DNA. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

They way they were romanticizing Navarro’s longing to commit suicide as some kind of celebrated Native ritual to meet with her ancestors was pretty gross, especially with her being so upset when her sister killer herself earlier. 
 

 

You said it better than I. There was some Magic Mystical  Indian stuff in this season that really rubbed me the wrong way, in the way it dealt with suicide.

[sweetandsour]

Well, I don't think I had any "who the fuck is Stan?" moments during season 4, so that is a win in True Detective world.

I will need to rewatch the finale.  Maybe the whole series, which is only 6 episodes, but I found myself drifting to some other distraction like my phone throughout almost every episode.  That is a "me" problem and not necessarily a reflection of the show.  But maybe I will appreciate it all more if I give it a second watch.

Navarro's suicide would have been unambiguous if she went to the hole where she poured Julia's ashes and walked or dove in.  I would prefer to think she's still out there.  She walked out to the ocean the way Julia did, to have one more moment with her, but she chose to go off the grid and give up being in law enforcement after that.

Poor Qaavik.

[Anela]

11 minutes ago, sweetandsour said:

 

 I would prefer to think she's still out there.  She walked out to the ocean the way Julia did, to have one more moment with her, but she chose to go off the grid and give up being in law enforcement after that.

Poor Qaavik.

This is what I think, too.  

the scene with her boyfriend, reminded me of this. just replace “pen” with “toothbrush”. 
 

 

[WaltersHair]

26 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The most nonsensical part was the notion that pollution from mining was needed to thaw the permafrost sufficiently to recover ancient DNA. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

They tried to shove too many hot topics into six episodes:

Big corporations are inherently evil and bonus global warming being caused by then as well. White men are evil, all native women are victims so it's okay to commit mass murder. All cops work outside the lines and even if they don't, they will eventually. Science  and scientists can't be trusted. Sex and the workplace.

I hated that they made me think Danvers was behind the death of her son and the abuser husband.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Quoting myself to say that I read an interview (posted in the Media thread) with Issa Lopez where she offers one possible explanation: The scientists killed Annie and called the mine to clean it up. Hank was sent. He dumps Annie's body where protests have been in order to make it look like it was connected. He abuses the body, kicking it and cutting out the tongue, to continue with that ruse. The women of the village find the tongue and keep it as an act of reverence, keeping it in a freezer. When they come to Tsalal to get the scientists, "they leave the tongue as a sign that now is the time of the truth of storytelling." I accept this answer.

Why would the cleaning women deny any involvement with the tongue, though? They had no problem coming clean about everything else.

It would be interesting to see a re-telling of this season, where brilliant scientists find a miracle particle that can solve climate change, but a local activist destroys it in a fit of vengeance, and all involved die horribly before they can save humanity.

A few lingering questions I have:

- So Clark had some sort of supernatural understanding that Annie was "awake." But what he was sensing was that the cleaning women were on their way? 

- How did Annie, who was a layperson, figure out that the scientists were harming the community? Did they leave some forms lying around that said "Falsified Pollution Records?" Or was she secretly a tech whiz, and a chemistry nerd?

- Connelly knew that the scientists had killed someone, and that the mine arranged for the police to help cover it up, and that Peter's father was promised the chief of police position in exchange for his participation. So why on earth would he give the chief of police position to Danvers instead? If anyone would be dogged enough to figure out the truth, it would be her. 

- And finally, how does Ennis have so much stuff - like a crematorium, a rehab center, and an ice skating rink? The biggest town north of the Arctic Circle is Utqiagvik (formerly known as Barrow), which only has 5,000 people. I don't expect complete accuracy, but it was really hard to suspend reality for this.

[susannot]

I really liked the ending.  It had me on the edge of my seat.  I shrieked and scared my husband and cats when Navarro, then Danvers fell through the ide.

 

I thought it was very fitting and a perfectly satisfying solution to the mystery that the Indigenous cleaning ladies, who had seen everything but were ignored by the scientists, took their righteous revenge.  Of course it was them!  How could we ever have doubted it.  Someone said earlier that the solution has been signaled to us all along, by showing the cleaning ladies, the laundromat ladies, the women in the crab factory---indigenous you must ignore at your peril. Issa Lopez said in an interview that the solution has been obvious all along.  I believe the interview was on Daily Beast.

[iMonrey]

5 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Quoting myself to say that I read an interview (posted in the Media thread) with Issa Lopez where she offers one possible explanation:

It would have been nice if she had offered such an explanation within the show proper. Frankly I think if you need explanations from the writer after the fact, it proves they didn't do a very good job.

One of the tropes this show fell victim to was the one witness who could have simply said "The cleaning ladies did it!" but instead just babbled incoherent nonsense before kicking the bucket. I'm talking, of course, about that one scientist who managed to (briefly) survive being turned into a corpsicle.

Also, the show spent five episodes depicting a very antagonistic relationship between Danvers and Leah, only to show them having magically healed their relationship somehow, all smiles and chatty driving off into the sunset. I realize they only had six episodes but some of that time should have been spent on the eventual reconciliation since so much time was spent on them. The character of Leah could have been eliminated altogether for how inconsequential it ended up being. 

[susannot]

9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

It would have been nice if she had offered such an explanation within the show proper. Frankly I think if you need explanations from the writer after the fact, it proves they didn't do a very good job.

One of the tropes this show fell victim to was the one witness who could have simply said "The cleaning ladies did it!" but instead just babbled incoherent nonsense before kicking the bucket. I'm talking, of course, about that one scientist who managed to (briefly) survive being turned into a corpsicle.

Also, the show spent five episodes depicting a very antagonistic relationship between Danvers and Leah, only to show them having magically healed their relationship somehow, all smiles and chatty driving off into the sunset. I realize they only had six episodes but some of that time should have been spent on the eventual reconciliation since so much time was spent on them. The character of Leah could have been eliminated altogether for how inconsequential it ended up being. 

 

Just now, susannot said:

 

Point taken (your 2d Para.), but if that were the case, the show would have ended in Episode 3.

[edhopper]

There is a thing called insulation.  In a facility designed to be staffed year round, it would be highly insulated.  If they closed the doors to the outer part of the building,  the center would probably stay warm until the storm past. Or they could build a fire on a concrete floor near an open door in a big cold garage.

[SHD]

When Danvers was locked in the room, why was her first instinct to grab a metal bar and try to bust the glass? She had a gun. Wouldn’t trying to shoot out the glass make more sense?

[aghst]

Would it have been a more satisfying end for Navarro if she returned the Sponge Bob tooth brush in person and moved in with Qavik?

Or maybe it would have been too much fan service because it looks like Liz, Leah, Pete and most others are in a better place, not to mention Alaska in the spring and summer.

 

 

 

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, violet and green said:

The reason I say "as told by Rose" is that her language in the last episode, as she tells Prior that putting his father's body into the water is not the worst of it over, as he might be imagining. The implication was she maybe lied about Travis killing himself. (Who knows with this show.)

I didn't get that impression at all. I think she just knows, from life experience, that traumatic events stay with you for the rest of your life. You have to deal with it even after you, e.g., put the body in the icy sea.

 

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Why would the cleaning women deny any involvement with the tongue, though? They had no problem coming clean about everything else.

Uhhhh. Good point. :doh:

Quote

- So Clark had some sort of supernatural understanding that Annie was "awake." But what he was sensing was that the cleaning women were on their way? 

I don't think there's any way to completely dismiss all of the supernatural occurrences in the season, but I'm not sure this particular part was necessarily supernatural. Clark was kind of loosing it. Or DID lose it. Playing a part in killing Annie, the woman he deeply loved, just destroyed him, broke him. When he said she was awake, that could have been his guilty mind speaking. I do wonder about the apparent seizure he had. I'm not sure if such a thing can be caused by psychological events or trauma. 

One thing I liked in this ep was when Navarro was seeing him during that moment but from a different angle than what we had seen. It didn't give us any more insight, but I thought it was interesting.

 

[iMonrey]

2 hours ago, sweetandsour said:

Poor Qaavik.

Oh I don't know. If you ask me he dodged a bullet. From what I saw Navarro only ever saw him as a convenient slampiece. 

[Anela]

20 minutes ago, SHD said:

When Danvers was locked in the room, why was her first instinct to grab a metal bar and try to bust the glass? She had a gun. Wouldn’t trying to shoot out the glass make more sense?

I think because the bullets could ricochet. (I just started to watch "Monk" again, for the first time in years, and that came up in one episode.. ;) )

[violet and green]

11 hours ago, violet and green said:

I found the romanticisation of suicide throughout the series - from the opening credits track, Julia's death, Travis's death as told by Rose, and Navarro's ambiguous ending - pretty reprehensible. Didn't get a warning on any episode, or the usual hotline numbers afterwards, either. 

Actually, I forgot, there was one pre-episode warning, before Julia's death.

I also forgot, there were two more "ambiguous" or not suicides. Hank Prior's death by cop/son. And then the non-ambiguous suicide of Raymond Clark.

I am not familiar with the oevre of Billie Eilish, so when I watched the opening credits of the very first episode I thought, taken aback by the song choice in the first place, is she actually singing, "I want to end me"?

If your life has not been touched - or in many cases, utterly riven - by the suicide of a loved one, then I guess this doesn't matter so much. But given the prevalence of suicide in arctic populations, it seems a pretty tone-deaf note to be striking over and over, and making a motif in your show that purports to care about the welfare of indigenous peoples, or indeed people at all.

[SHD]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

I think because the bullets could ricochet. (I just started to watch "Monk" again, for the first time in years, and that came up in one episode.. ;) )

I thought of that, but it seems you could stand off, farther away, at an angle and shoot it so that even if it ricocheted, it wouldn’t come at you. But honestly, I have no idea, so I’ll accept this answer!

[Lassus]

13 hours ago, Bannon said:

The most nonsensical part was the notion that pollution from mining was needed to thaw the permafrost sufficiently to recover ancient DNA. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I thought it was less about the thawing and more about some chemical effect on the ice, but either way I'll just refer you back to what you quoted of mine.  I get if it annoys, you should read one of my 12 rants about that horrible Beethoven movie shitshow from the 90s, Immortal Beloved.  But fiction is fiction, and needs these things.

10 hours ago, SHD said:

When Danvers was locked in the room, why was her first instinct to grab a metal bar and try to bust the glass? She had a gun. Wouldn’t trying to shoot out the glass make more sense?

This might have been one of the few realistic things, though.  Didn't want to waste bullets?  Didn't want to accidentally hit Navarro? I didn't mind it because it worked, so.

Edited February 20 by Lassus

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, Blakeston said:

 

- And finally, how does Ennis have so much stuff - like a crematorium, a rehab center, and an ice skating rink? The biggest town north of the Arctic Circle is Utqiagvik (formerly known as Barrow), which only has 5,000 people. I don't expect complete accuracy, but it was really hard to suspend reality for this.

The police station was in the old dental building and grandma was gone at one point, to Fairbanks, to the dentist.  Mining town, will get smaller now, I imagine. 
 

i would guess that Clarke told Annie stuff but never thought she would destroy the work they were doing. 
 

i think it I watch this again I will assume Navarro lives. She could have made preparations and Rose could help. I think Rose is a hell of a fixer. It just occurred to ne, fanfiction, Navarro visits Rust. 

Edited February 20 by Affogato

[Snapdragon]

I liked it.  I'm cool with the explanation of the scientists killed Annie, so the local women killed them, but there was some supernatural stuff going on in the background as well (Annie K's tongue, Navarro seeing ghosts). 

The only part I didn't buy is that the woman with missing fingers would tolerate an abusive boyfriend.  If you're the type of person who participates in a vigilante murder raid, I don't see you taking it from an abusive boyfriend.  

Also, I would have preferred if they gave a better explanation for how the women found out.  Just finding the murder weapon wouldn't have told them that all the scientists participated in the murder.  Would have made more sense if one of the scientists kept a journal that the women found and read while searching for more evidence.  Or, instead of Hank being the one to move the body, the abusive boyfriend had been hired to do it instead and at some point drunkenly confesses to the missing fingers lady.  Secret security footage would have worked also.  Just something to provide the women with more solid evidence.  

[Madding crowd]

I didn’t like the season long emphasis on suicide starting with the Billie Eilish song which might have another ‘real’ meaning but also could romanticize suicide to vulnerable people. I also think we are supposed to be satisfied that Navarro committed suicide because she was watching over Danvers as a spirit.

My questions which I don’t think the “somethings don’t have answers “covers:

Why was the Ferris Bueller scene playing again at the lab? I don’t see any reason Clark would want to play it since he was mostly in the underground lab.

It looked to me like Annie’s video was made underground but the flashback of her killing looked like it was in the regular lab. Why did it take the cleaning ladies so many years to find out the truth and get vengeance? Why were they at one house?

How did the scientists get blown out eardrums and scratched corneas? Are we supposed to think they were unable to come back and get their clothes due to an immediate avalanche? How did the lab get freezing cold minutes after the power went out? People worked there year round and there would be insulation that would help until the generator kicked in. All in all, good acting but not great writing.

[heatherchandler]

On 2/19/2024 at 7:19 AM, Affogato said:

I assume they will not find Navarro’s body because Rose will have laid her to rest with Julia. I assume that the scientists, who had spent a decade of their lives devoted to the pursuit of this world changing dna—by the way, ouroboros, time as a flat circle, the ice snake spiral—were crazy enough to attack Annie. Delighted that the clothes were folded by the women, and that they could have put them on and left, if they wanted. 

I think I missed some pieces, I’ll have to rewatch.  Why do we think she took her own life?  Did we see her walk out on the ice?  I thought the last image of her was actually her but I can see how some think it’s her ghost because she’s in her police gear.

 

[Snapdragon]

28 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I didn’t like the season long emphasis on suicide starting with the Billie Eilish song which might have another ‘real’ meaning but also could romanticize suicide to vulnerable people. I also think we are supposed to be satisfied that Navarro committed suicide because she was watching over Danvers as a spirit.

My questions which I don’t think the “somethings don’t have answers “covers:

Why was the Ferris Bueller scene playing again at the lab? I don’t see any reason Clark would want to play it since he was mostly in the underground lab.

It looked to me like Annie’s video was made underground but the flashback of her killing looked like it was in the regular lab. Why did it take the cleaning ladies so many years to find out the truth and get vengeance? Why were they at one house?

How did the scientists get blown out eardrums and scratched corneas? Are we supposed to think they were unable to come back and get their clothes due to an immediate avalanche? How did the lab get freezing cold minutes after the power went out? People worked there year round and there would be insulation that would help until the generator kicked in. All in all, good acting but not great writing.

The Billie Eilish song is supposed to be about a "monster under the bed" from the monster's perspective.  So you could interpret that to be a literal monster or something monsterous that a person is dealing with (addiction, abusive relationship etc).  I've always found that song to have a very dark, malevolent spirit vibe to it, so to me, it fits the show.

From what the creator of the season has said, I think her intention was that Navarro had been scared to go out on the ice before because of all her ghosts (literal and figurative) and was afraid of what would happen to her/what she would do if she went out there, but now that she's made peace with that part of herself (her ability to see dead people?  Her acknowledging that she sometimes has suicidal thoughts but that doesn't mean she has to follow through with them?), she can go out on the ice unafraid.  She doesn't want to say for definite that's what the ending is though, since some people are interpreting it as Navarro died and is coming back as a ghost to visit Danvers and she feels that art is open to interpretation.  That's how I'm understanding it, anyway.

As for Annie's murder, that happened in the underground lab.  We see Clark hearing Annie being murdered and he climbs down the ladder into the lab, where he finds the one scientist stabbing her (after she trashed everything down there).  He pulls the attacker off, but by this time the other scientists have made their way down there and they continue with the attack.  

The stuff with how the scientists died and the lab lights/temperature, I'm chalking up to Annie K's ghost was doing a bit of haunting.  In the finale, when Navarro is trying to fix something at the lab (the heat?  the lights?), we see a woman flash behind her in the background.  Navarro doesn't see this, it's just the audience so I took that to mean that Annie K was still hanging around, making sure that the truth about everything was known.  

 

[Madding crowd]

I know what the Eilish song means according to the artist but I think some people hearing the lyrics “I want to end me” combined with the suicides on the show may see it in a romantic light. Navarro’s story is meant to be ambiguous but leaving personal belongings behind and showing up at the end with no recognition by Danvers implies to me she is a spirit. I don’t find Annie’s revenge a good explanation for what happened to the scientists beyond the cleaning ladies leaving them in the snow. 

[Affogato]

32 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I think I missed some pieces, I’ll have to rewatch.  Why do we think she took her own life?  Did we see her walk out on the ice?  I thought the last image of her was actually her but I can see how some think it’s her ghost because she’s in her police gear.

 

We do see her walk out alone, no house, car. But we didn’t see her fall, kept clothes on. 

[carrps]

13 hours ago, SHD said:

When Danvers was locked in the room, why was her first instinct to grab a metal bar and try to bust the glass? She had a gun. Wouldn’t trying to shoot out the glass make more sense?

 

13 hours ago, Anela said:

I think because the bullets could ricochet. (I just started to watch "Monk" again, for the first time in years, and that came up in one episode.. ;) )

I thought of this, too, and I also thought of ricochets. In that shallow space, she couldn't be sure that a ricochet wouldn't hit her, plus, if she shot at an angle, the bullet might not actually shatter the glass.

[astrohip]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:33 AM, violet and green said:

I found the romanticisation of suicide throughout the series - from the opening credits track, Julia's death, Travis's death as told by Rose, and Navarro's ambiguous ending - pretty reprehensible. Didn't get a warning on any episode, or the usual hotline numbers afterwards, either. 

Maybe it was different on various sources (HBO vs MAX or other?). There was a warning both before & after each episode for me (MAX).

[mledawn]

I liked the finale. I understand where a lot of the criticism is coming from but I enjoyed it. 

The women have been gathered together many times throughout the show. They're together for births, deaths... in this case, it was a blizzard so perhaps they were collectively assisting someone. It didn't strike me as odd to have all them together, but of course it suited a plot purpose. Incidentally, Tanya Tagaq (an Inuk artist) appears as one of the Inupiaq women who handle the scientists - she is the second one to tell them to take off their fucking clothes.

It had not occurred to me that Navarro had died (by suicide) until I came and read others' takes in the forum. I interpreted that scene to be her embracing her spiritual side, and no longer being afraid. However, I was afraid every time Navarro or Danvers waded out into the snowstorm without a tether of some sort. People get very easily lost in that kind of weather.

17 minutes ago, carrps said:

 

I thought of this, too, and I also thought of ricochets. In that shallow space, she couldn't be sure that a ricochet wouldn't hit her, plus, if she shot at an angle, the bullet might not actually shatter the glass.

Plus, in an enclosed space like that, it would be loud af would it not?

I was hoping to see Christopher Eccleston again just because his American accent cracked me up.

[Lassus]

8 minutes ago, mledawn said:

I was hoping to see Christopher Eccleston again just because his American accent cracked me up.

Liz's young ward Prior is British as well.

[Snapdragon]

14 minutes ago, mledawn said:

 

It had not occurred to me that Navarro had died (by suicide) until I came and read others' takes in the forum. I interpreted that scene to be her embracing her spiritual side, and no longer being afraid. However, I was afraid every time Navarro or Danvers waded out into the snowstorm without a tether of some sort. People get very easily lost in that kind of weather.

 

I was worried when they went down into the ice caves and were just wandering around without marking anything so they could find their way back.  Like, bring a ball of yarn with you, at least?  Breadcrumbs?  No one knew they were down there so had they not found that secret lab with its ladder, they probably would have gotten lost and died.

And I wish we could do polls because I'd be interested to know how many people think Navarro was alive at the end and how many think she was dead and how people's views of things overall affected that.  For me, they make a point of saying that it's the first day of sunlight (or whatever), so everyone seems happier and moving forward so I assume that Navarro's going on some kind of vision quest where she's going to reconnect with nature/her ancestors/all those ghosts that she sees and just drops into town to say "hi" every once in awhile.  

Edited February 20 by Snapdragon

[Anela]

You can make a poll, if you start a new thread. 

[violet and green]

4 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

As for Annie's murder, that happened in the underground lab.  We see Clark hearing Annie being murdered and he climbs down the ladder into the lab, where he finds the one scientist stabbing her (after she trashed everything down there).  He pulls the attacker off, but by this time the other scientists have made their way down there and they continue with the attack.  

And yet we saw the video Annie K made on her phone in the dark of a tunnel with the whale bones showing, and she was screaming as whoever found her and came to kill her got there, and we saw and Danvers remarked - see, the power went off - and we heard Annie screaming at length in the dark.

The scene of Annie being murdered was not in a dark tunnel, with whale bones, it was in a bright white lab, and at no time was the power shut off, it was fully lit, and they stomped on Annie's phone to shut it off.

[heatherchandler]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

We do see her walk out alone, no house, car. But we didn’t see her fall, kept clothes on. 

Hmmm… Did she put the sponge Bob toothbrush at the dude’s house after that scene?  I know they are trying to be ambiguous but I like to think she didn’t die.  

[Ottis]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:02 PM, Cotypubby said:

They way they were romanticizing Navarro’s longing to commit suicide as some kind of celebrated Native ritual to meet with her ancestors was pretty gross, especially with her being so upset when her sister killer herself earlier. 

ITA, and this "call of the ice" theme was the one thing I never understood. It seems to be tied to loss, and how people deal with it. But as shown, either there is in fact some kind of unknowable, supernatural, call to wander the ice that appeals only to some people (all natives), or some natives (maybe a particular family) are prone to suicide. Either way, it doesn't need to be there. 

Danvers suffered loss. She didn't walk onto the ice. Junior Prior had the loss of whatever father figure he had AND his crumbling marriage. He didn't consider the ice. For some reason, committing suicide by wandering the ice appeals, or has a pull on, certain natives. I'm fine that something incidental has a tangential relationship to the actual murders and mining company shenanigans, that happens. But in this case, I'm not sure what the incidental thing was trying to say.

I don't get caught up in who sleuthed what detail or whatever. A lot of TD is setting and mood for me, not exact logic. I enjoyed it overall, and I especially liked Danvers and Navarre, and the quietly strong native women. 

 

[violet and green]

On 2/19/2024 at 4:04 PM, topanga said:

I'm going to fan-wank that the cleaning women who went into the underground cave found more evidence than just a star-shaped drill bit. 

That's cool. Given that this show, purportedly about solving that case found no evidence at all to indicate the scientists en masse or singly killed Annie K and given even I have a drill bit that shape, I don't think it is a good enough reason to murder the lot of them, when a) it may not even be the murder weapon and they may not have done it (cause I sure didn't do it) and b) only one of them may be responsible, but hey kill them all, and c) the current investigation is actively if ham-fistedly trying to solve the Annie K case, not bury it, so there is no need for mob justice except for the sake of some girl power vibes.

[HDJulie]

I liked it but I personally have very low viewing standards. As long as I’m not bored, I don’t much care whether things make sense or not. Most of the time, I have to read these forums to find out what all I missed catching. 

I didn’t have a problem with Liz & Leah being in a better place in their relationship. That scene was 5 or more months later. Plenty of time for them both to have forged a better understanding of each other. I liked that Leah had the marks on her chin. 
 

Where was Liz in the last scene?  That wasn’t their house. 

[pezgirl7]

3 hours ago, violet and green said:

And yet we saw the video Annie K made on her phone in the dark of a tunnel with the whale bones showing, and she was screaming as whoever found her and came to kill her got there, and we saw and Danvers remarked - see, the power went off - and we heard Annie screaming at length in the dark.

The scene of Annie being murdered was not in a dark tunnel, with whale bones, it was in a bright white lab, and at no time was the power shut off, it was fully lit, and they stomped on Annie's phone to shut it off.

I rewatched the scene, and although there are some lights around the perimeter of the ice lab, the end of the lab she was murdered on appears darker. Rewatching Annie's video, since she is pointing the camera up at the ceiling, it makes sense that the ceiling would be darker. I think the way she is holding the phone makes it seem like she's in a smaller space than she is. If she had been holding the phone upright, we would have seen more of the surroundings of the lab, but that would have given away the mystery too soon! Also, during the flashback to when she is first being stabbed, the lights are flickering.