S02.E04: His Grace the Duke

[RedDelicious]

I am SO here for the love in middle age storyline. I feel like it is so seldom done where it actually works out that I'd love for it to be real this time, just for the feel good part of it. It certainly makes me happy. 

I'm loving the soapiness of this season!

[Chippings]

Am I the only one who has trouble following these characters by their first names?  Y'all impress me very much in citing them all by first names.  And I watched last night's  episode 2-1/2 times!

That said, also, Wow they have some serious Broadway talent on this show.  I was surprised to see Dakin Mathews (Mr. Winterton / Judge in 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and many other credits) and Laura Benanti.  Not to mention Kelli O'Hara who's been there all along, and of course Nathan Lane.

And finally I'm also distracted in every episode by the bustles -- good Lord, the bustles!  How does anybody ever get around, or sit for any period of time.  I need to look up  how long that element of fashion lasted.  

 

 

[rollacoaster]

12 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

I think it’s more that he found Enid a phony bore, whereas Bertha has charming repartee and quick comeback.

But still, his former hosts should not have had to find out about his change of plans via the morning paper. To me, that shows that the Duke is tacky and an opportunist. And Bertha is too excited by her royal "catch" to see the red flags. 

[kay1864]

10 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

But still, his former hosts should not have had to find out about his change of plans via the morning paper. To me, that shows that the Duke is tacky and an opportunist.

He’s the Duke of Buckingham, at a time when the sun had not yet set on the British empire. He’s used to doing what he wants, and probably cares little about New York City protocol.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Only if one party can prove infidelity during the marriage or both parties agree to a lie. 

Not that I know the laws, but I'll bet her lying about her background might work in his favor.

6 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

(Did anyone else audibly squeal when he touched her hand with his finger?  I am SURE I scared my upstairs neighbor with my 'OHMYGAWDYESSSSS!!!!') 

Yes, I was squealing while fanning myself. So daring!

6 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

/Although Larry helped Marion after her Raikes break up...so I hope she provides Larry a shoulder because they need to be a couple!!!!!

I thought of that too. It would be a good way to get them together slowly, to have them both burnt by their first infatuation.

4 hours ago, ofmd said:

I also disagree with the notion that he undoubtedly would get tired of her in 20 years and cheat on her, and want heirs. There are, and have always been, relationships with older women and younger men that worked.

Personally, I just wouldn't be optimistic because it seems like he's just overwhelmed with this being his first rather than really being that compatible with her.

 

58 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

I think it’s more that he found Enid a phony bore, whereas Bertha has charming repartee and quick comeback.

And Bertha was on point at that dinner. I was impressed by her witty conversation. She also made it easy for him to stay with her, assuring him she'd take care of the Wintertons etc., and that they'd be relieved.

Re: Turner's name, Fellowes does seem to picking names from some Big Book of Comically Ugly Names for Women a lot of the time. With Bertha it seems like she almost took it as another challenge-she wasn't named to be a romance heroine, but she made herself one.

The one name I find distracting is Peggy. Not because it's anachronistic, since it's not, but her character is similar enough in type to Peggy Olson on Mad Men that it always makes me think of her.

Edited November 20, 2023 by sistermagpie

[iMonrey]

Peggy's story is so detached from the rest of the show it seems like it should be its own show. It's not a bad story, but it has nothing to do with the gilded age and the fluffiness of the other stories.

Given that Turner's husband doesn't know she's a former ladies maid, and that she apparently doesn't want him to know, her determination to involve herself with Bertha is utterly idiotic. She is poking the one bear that can ruin her life. It makes zero sense. I think we are meant to assume Bertha's desire to get the Wintertons to take a box at the Met overrides any desire she might have to out Turner. But now that the Wintertons have lost their box at the academy Turner no longer has the upper hand, and still she wants to go after Bertha, to her own detriment. She has everything to lose whereas Bertha has nothing to lose.

If the Reverend has no ulterior motives in courting Ada, I'm guessing that Agnes will either guilt Ada out of marrying him, or find a way to force the Reverend to withdraw his proposal. I don't see a happy ever after ending for Ada here.

I think the show realized after last season that Louisa Jacobson was the weak link in the cast. Marian's reduced role this season suggests that, anyway. I can't decide if she's improved or if it's just that she's more tolerable in small doses.

[chaifan]

OK, I'm going to revisit my earlier suspicion of Rev. Forte.  As many have pointed out, the con-man angle has been done several times, so that isn't likely to happen.  But, I still think something's up, or will be up.  As someone said, Ada is GA's Edith, and will have to endure seasons of unhappiness before finding her one twu luv.  So I'm going to now guess that the Reverend truly loves Ada, and as such, will be meeting an early demise.  Or will be told by the church he's being relocated to the middle of Africa.  Or some other barrier to twu luv.

Quote

“For me, no one living is more important than you.”

Am I the only one who thinks that's the oddest phrasing?  Who is the dead person that is so important to George?  😂

Clock boy...  I had almost forgotten about him.  Yes, for some reason, I am interested in and like this plot.  Maybe I'm reading way more into this than I should, but I see the show giving us some social commentary on the working class of the day.  And showing a sense of hope - that the NY working class aren't necessarily stuck in one spot for life.  Turner clawed her way right to the top, but we have Peggy's family reaching success (especially as a Black family in the day), Peggy herself having a career, and now the hint that clock boy may make a better life for himself via clock repair. 

My hope is that Agnes does something generous, spots some talent in him, arranges for an apprenticeship, something of that sort. 

 

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Actually, he probably wouldn't divorce her. He really wouldn't need to unless, for some reason, he wanted to marry someone else. He could simply stop funding anything.

I'm not sure that work, because he still has position in society and since he is married, there were functions/events his wife would be expected to attend with him. Too many absences might result in gossip and questions. 

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As many here said before, it was a mistake from Turner to come to Russell's house where servants recognized her because servants use to gossip with other servants.

There's part of me that wishes we could have had that quick montage. I want to see what the old fashioned pre-telephone version of "The Telephone Hour" was like among the servants. 

9 hours ago, BellyLaughter said:

I can’t work out if I’m meant to hate Mrs Blaine or not?!  Like is she just lonely and genuine or horny and using Larry lol 

I'm going with she started out lonely and horny, but then developed a real relationship with strong feelings for him. 

6 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

Did anyone else audibly squeal when he touched her hand with his finger?  I am SURE I scared my upstairs neighbor with my 'OHMYGAWDYESSSSS!!!!' 

My wording and volume were slightly different, but pretty much the same reaction. 

6 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

Although Larry helped Marion after her Raikes break up...so I hope she provides Larry a shoulder because they need to be a couple!!!!!

I hope this happens. I always want to see more of the younger generation interacting. At this point, I do not see Larry and Marion as a romantic couple, but I do see them as friends. However, I would not rule out friends to lovers as possibility. 

6 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

I seem to recall it being explained she wrote letters to Whitterton after his wife died praising his art collection or something and developing a 'friendship' through that correspondence.

Yes, but I am not completely satisfied with this as the entire explanation. It feels like there is more to the story and I want to know what it is. 

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

She's an idiot to have tried to pull this off in NYC.  She should have gone to Chicago to nab a millionaire, where no one knows her. 

This would have worked really well. The only thing I can think of was that Enid Turner really wanted to show off her accomplishment and let Mrs. Russell know what happened and that she landed on her feet and then some. 

5 hours ago, ofmd said:

But I can't get over how naive he was about the whole affair. He may be inexperienced about relationships, but surely he knows the social norms.

He is a young man in love, and love makes you stupid. Love makes almost everyone stupid, so he is not alone in that. 

4 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Bertha changed the dinner table seating. One staff member tried to correct her. George spoke to him sternly, and that’s it?

Yes, pretty much. No one is going to make a fuss or cause a scene in front of the other guests. However, that news will travel and gossip will reach the ears of almost every proper society hostess. 

3 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Ok...Looooord, the Russell reunion got me tearing up over here! The raw emotion and passion between those two! His pleading for forgiveness! The way she exhaled and melted in relief in his embrace! 

And the scene where he blocked that server at the fancy dinner, "Mrs. Russell is exactly where she should be."

I am so glad they are back together as the power couple I know and love. It's very strange to be rooting for him when he's trying to help Bertha succeed, and then in the same episode rooting against him when he's dealing with his employees/business matters. 

3 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Peggy is such a sharp, bright, shining young woman. I want nothing but the best for her. I appreciate her storyline, but it feels kind of out of place among the more frivolous yet life and death sopa opera shenanigans of the rest of the show.

I like the juxtaposition of the storylines. There is such a stark contrast and it's fascinating to see two completely different events with different stakes happening at the same time. 

3 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

I don't think so - Enid doesn't have the social clout roots and can't do much for him.  She, honestly, needs him more than he needs her because he can still provide her intel on her 'secret' getting out.  And the very first time Agnes lays eyes on her at a society function...or if Mrs. Astor spills the tea on why Mr. Enid lost his Academy box and Agnes puts two and two together the former lady's maid she had Mrs. Russell sack and Mrs. Whittington are the same person...ENID (Horrible name but fits the character perfectly) won't get away from Agnes' barbs, and Oscar has to know ENID can't help him at this point.

Enid can't help him, but I can see Oscar doing it for the fun of it. Also, he may still want revenge because George did not allow him to court and marry Gladys. 

4 minutes ago, chaifan said:

My hope is that Agnes does something generous, spots some talent in him, arranges for an apprenticeship, something of that sort. 

Because it's America, I want the show to tap into the myth that with the right combination of luck, talent, and skill, anyone can become rich. It ties into George's comment about fighting a war to get rid of titles and nobility. I want Jack to succeed on his own. Also, it would shock and appall Agnes if a servant did something on his own time that caused him to become wealthy enough to leave her household because he found better employment in another occupation, especially as a self made man. 

[taanja]

15 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Obviously, we're all thinking that Bertha spilled the beans to Mrs. Astor about (ENID!!!!!!!). I'd be shocked if it was anyone else. I want to be shocked.

 

I don't know?

EVERYBODY!! and I mean everybody from the servants to the The Gilded Ones knew about Turner. That she had been a lady's maid and married a man with money and now was a Grand Lady.

I wonder what Enid told the old geeze about herself to get him to marry her?

[ofmd]

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

If the Reverend has no ulterior motives in courting Ada, I'm guessing that Agnes will either guilt Ada out of marrying him, or find a way to force the Reverend to withdraw his proposal. I don't see a happy ever after ending for Ada here.

I can absolutely see the guilt-tripping. Or maybe Agnes talks the Reverend out of it, somehow claiming it would be bad for Ada to marry so late in life.

15 minutes ago, chaifan said:

OK, I'm going to revisit my earlier suspicion of Rev. Forte.  As many have pointed out, the con-man angle has been done several times, so that isn't likely to happen.  But, I still think something's up, or will be up.  As someone said, Ada is GA's Edith, and will have to endure seasons of unhappiness before finding her one twu luv.  So I'm going to now guess that the Reverend truly loves Ada, and as such, will be meeting an early demise.  Or will be told by the church he's being relocated to the middle of Africa.  Or some other barrier to twu luv.

Am I the only one who thinks that's the oddest phrasing?  Who is the dead person that is so important to George?  😂

 

Yes, I can see the Rev falling out of a church window or something... I don't necessarily think RSL would want to stay on the show for several seasons. OR Agnes falls ill (or pretends to) and Ada will feel compelled to stay.

Haha, I was wondering about the important dead person, too!

And to whoever wrote about having trouble with all the names... I do, too.

[taanja]

15 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I dunno. Rev. Forte moved pretty fast. I think he thinks Ada has money. I don't see a happy ending here. 

Me either. There is NO WAY this show breaks up the power couple of Agnes and Ada! No way! Those two old biddies are going to die in one another's arms!

They will probs have the Rev die of a heart attack or leave town or.... something??

I predict here and now that the wedding never takes place!

[ofmd]

1 minute ago, taanja said:

Me either. There is NO WAY this show breaks up the power couple of Agnes and Ada! No way! Those two old biddies are going to die in one another's arms!

 

With the hands of one around the neck of the other... Whoever that may be.

[chaifan]

14 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Also, it would shock and appall Agnes if a servant did something on his own time that caused him to become wealthy enough to leave her household because he found better employment in another occupation, especially as a self made man. 

I don't get that read on Agnes.  From what we saw of her treatment of Peggy in Season 1,  I see her as someone that looks favorably upon those (lesser than her) that try to better their station in life.  I think she respects (might be a bit strong of a word) those who do for themselves more than those who just stay status quo (Armstrong).

One more comment about the dinner party with the Duke...  I loved it when Bertha and George first arrived, and Bertha was about to go in the dining room to switch place cards, Bertha just said to George "Stay here."  And he did.  Without question.  Without hesitation. 

[Sarah 103]

20 minutes ago, chaifan said:

From what we saw of her treatment of Peggy in Season 1,  I see her as someone that looks favorably upon those (lesser than her) that try to better their station in life.  I think she respects (might be a bit strong of a word) those who do for themselves more than those who just stay status quo (Armstrong).

I can see it going either way. What you said is true, but she is also very much about tradition, the proper way, and is against change and the new. 

20 minutes ago, chaifan said:

One more comment about the dinner party with the Duke...  I loved it when Bertha and George first arrived, and Bertha was about to go in the dining room to switch place cards, Bertha just said to George "Stay here."  And he did.  Without question.  Without hesitation. 

This is one of the many reasons why I love them as a couple. They support each other unconditionally and until recently had near absolute trust each other. 

[TV Diva Queen]

Does anyone know the name of the actress that plays Booker T Washington's wife?  I can't find it on google - just getting info on Booker's real life wife.  She looks sooooo familiar.

[RachelKM]

11 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Bertha changed the dinner table seating. One staff member tried to correct her. George spoke to him sternly, and that’s it?

Honestly, I think the butler saying anything at all was intended to confirm that the he hadn't noticed the card switch and was reacting out of shock.  Once the card was there and Bertha was being seated at her apparent correct setting in a room full of guests, it was a fait accompli. 

8 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

That makes sense why she was so pissed about 'MY Duke' - I think her long game involved becoming British Royalty, moving across the pond where no one has any clue she was a ladies maid, and Bertha just totally ruined it for her.

I suppose that's possible.  But it isn't necessary to explain Turner's fit.  Having a duke as an acquaintance is a big get, let alone having him as a guest in your home. As Bertha said, no one will a pulse would turn down an invitation to her dinner for him.  And in NYC Society's defense, this would pretty much also be true in London.

Bertha just stole Turner's season triumph.  It would be enraging to her on two fronts. 

7 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

But still, his former hosts should not have had to find out about his change of plans via the morning paper.

Yeah... that was bad. It would NEVER happen that way if the man had any breeding, which he should as a duke.  Changing his plans at all would be a bit rude. But not informing them directly is all AND allowing it to become known throw a gossip column is basically casual dismissal in public. 

 

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If the Reverend has no ulterior motives in courting Ada, I'm guessing that Agnes will either guilt Ada out of marrying him, or find a way to force the Reverend to withdraw his proposal. I don't see a happy ever after ending for Ada here.

My fervent hope is that, realizing Agnes's temper at the proposal is rooted in a fear of being alone, she convinces Reverend Dead Poets Society, or better he offers, to reside with Agnes during her life a'la Emma with Mr. Woodhouse. It could really go wither way with Fellowes.

6 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm not sure that work, because he still has position in society and since he is married, there were functions/events his wife would be expected to attend with him. Too many absences might result in gossip and questions. 

I was under the impression that he had been out of society for a while before marrying. But at any rate, if he learns the truth, he can severely curtail her behavior and expenditures at his discretion. 

Besides, he knows Mrs. Astor already knows. Talk is happening (though the specifics anyone knows outside the Russell house and Oscar is unclear).  He can at choose how to minimize the damage.  I would imagine any solution once he finds out he married a woman who 1) lied to him and 2) was  the lady's maid of a woman in within his society would be about mitigation. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by RachelKM
Typos

[Pop Tart]

6 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Bertha changed the dinner table seating. One staff member tried to correct her. George spoke to him sternly, and that’s it?

I think at that point, with everyone coming in to get seated, the servant chose the better part of valor and decided not to get into it with George. He knew it could be a big scene and the hosts of the event (his employers) would not like that at all.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

OK, I'm going to revisit my earlier suspicion of Rev. Forte.  As many have pointed out, the con-man angle has been done several times, so that isn't likely to happen.  But, I still think something's up, or will be up.  As someone said, Ada is GA's Edith, and will have to endure seasons of unhappiness before finding her one twu luv.  So I'm going to now guess that the Reverend truly loves Ada, and as such, will be meeting an early demise.  Or will be told by the church he's being relocated to the middle of Africa.  Or some other barrier to twu luv.

I believe that the plot will concentrate on Agnes's unability to let Ada get happiness that she never got. Ada has a kind character, so she can be moved to break her engagement if Agnes pleads that leaving her would mean forgetting a debt of gratitude. I hope that Agnes finally wins her envy and fear of loneliness and as well as ceases to belittle Ada and begins to show her affection and respect she needs.

Agnes's lonely dinner was a fine scene as it without any words showed how much also she is dependent on her sister's company, although she has so often reminded Ada on her financial dependency.  

[Carolina Girl]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

As many here said before, it was a mistake from Turner to come to Russell's house where servants recognized her because servants use to gossip with other servants.

Yep and that's where I think it WAS the servants - the lady's maid told the alarm clock kid, who told everyone downstairs.  The butler, who I believe knows about Agnes telling Bertha to rid herself of her lady's made tells Agnes who tells Mrs. Astor.  

 

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I would imagine any solution once he finds out he married a woman who 1) lied to him and 2) was  the lady's maid of a woman in within his society would be about mitigation. 

One has to think the Mrs. Chamberlain treatment awaits her once it gets out.  You will note that even the "new people" tried to befriend her.  

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

OK - I don't know how I missed this the first time...but just rewatched the episode and I think I know why ENID was so pissed about the Duke.

Bertha's conversation with Larry's Cougar and then the tail end convo between Enid and her VERY OLD husband - DUH...Enid wants to have the Duke lined up for when her hubs kicks the bucket.  Enid is 'waiting for her husband' to die so she can ascend to Becoming A Duchess in three easy steps.

That makes sense why she was so pissed about 'MY Duke' - I think her long game involved becoming British Royalty, moving across the pond where no one has any clue she was a ladies maid, and Bertha just totally ruined it for her.

Before Enid kills her husband, she has better learn about his testament.

But even a rich widow would't do for the duke. He wants a young and innocent heiress.

[AntFTW]

19 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I believe that the plot will concentrate on Agnes's unability to let Ada get happiness that she never got. Ada has a kind character, so she can be moved to break her engagement if Agnes pleads that leaving her would mean forgetting a debt of gratitude. I hope that Agnes finally wins her envy and fear of loneliness and as well as ceases to belittle Ada and begins to show her affection and respect she needs.

Agnes's lonely dinner was a fine scene as it without any words showed how much also she is dependent on her sister's company, although she has so often reminded Ada on her financial dependency.  

Agreed. As much as Agnes won't admit it, she likes her sister's company. I think she has grown to like having Marian around as well. I think her family gives her a sense of purpose.

[tennisgurl]

If you come for the queen, you best not miss, Enid. Now that the Russels have made up Bertha can put all of her time she's not spending on opera or planning out her kids love lives into sticking it to Turner. Bertha clearly won this one, she really pulled out a winner when she swapped those place cards, you cant say she doesn't have chutzpah. I can imagine that the Duke might have switched houses just because Bertha is way more fun to hang out with at a party than Turner, they might both be new money but while Bertha is very witty and charming, Turner is clearly a poser without much to offer in a conversation. Turner might take a few more swings, but we all know who's coming out on top. 

I am so hoping this wedding actually happens, Ada and the Rev are so cute together! Ada really deserves happiness, I hope that she takes it without Agnes getting in the way of her new relationship. I don't think he's doing this to just get her money, both because they already did the whole "fortune hunter goes after Ada" plot last season, and it just seems like its a lousy con to get some money from the sister of a rich widow as a middle aged reverend. They're moving fast but they're both older, have been unmarried their whole lives, really like each other, plus people tended to marry faster back then, I can see why they would want to get their life started. At least I hope that this is where its going and Ada (and our) hearts wont be broken. 

Turner stomping around screaming about losing "her" Duke was hilarious, she sounds like a Gilded Age adult Veruca Salt. "I want a Duke NOW!" How did she think that her past would never be revealed? If she was as smart as she thinks she is she would have gone to a midwestern city like Chicago to find her rich husband instead of hanging around her old stomping grounds.

She should watch out, Lily Langtree is the absolute last woman you wanted to have around your older wealthy husband!

I like a lot of Peggy's plot, even if she continues to come off as ridiculously naïve, but I do not like this vibe between her and the married reporter, that's so not gong to end well. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by tennisgurl

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

My fervent hope is that, realizing Agnes's temper at the proposal is rooting in a fear of being alone, she convinces Reverend Dead Poets Society, ot better he offers, to reside with Agnes during her life a'la Emma with Mr. Woodhouse. It could really go wither way with Fellowes.

This works for me. It keeps Ada and Agnes in the same house, which you need for the plot. It brings someone new into the mix, which can be fun. I would enjoy watching him interact with Marian and Oscar. It would be fascinating to see how he reacts to living in a house with servants. 

1 hour ago, Carolina Girl said:

Yep and that's where I think it WAS the servants - the lady's maid told the alarm clock kid, who told everyone downstairs.  The butler, who I believe knows about Agnes telling Bertha to rid herself of her lady's made tells Agnes who tells Mrs. Astor.  

This chain of events is completely plausible and totally works for me. I accept that this is what happened and explains how Mrs. Astor found out the truth about Enid Turner. 

[DesiJF]

3 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

Does anyone know the name of the actress that plays Booker T Washington's wife?  I can't find it on google - just getting info on Booker's real life wife.  She looks sooooo familiar.

Brittany Bradford.  She's also on Julia - plays Alice Namen

[Haleth]

Run, Gladys, run!  Your mom is coming for you with a duke!

[AntFTW]

21 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Run, Gladys, run!  Your mom is coming for you with a duke!

But... what if she likes the Duke? 🥺

[Haleth]

7 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

But... what if she likes the Duke? 🥺

This is Fellowes.  There will be something wrong. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Haleth

[Atlanta]

If she winds up with a duke or earl, please let it turn into a love match like Cora and Robert from Downton. I really don't want her to be miserable like Consuelo Vanderbilt. 

[RachelKM]

9 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

If she winds up with a duke or earl, please let it turn into a love match like Cora and Robert from Downton. I really don't want her to be miserable like Consuelo Vanderbilt. 

I would prefer this too. But if she does love him, he gonna die.  Both because this is Julian Fellowes who regularly mistakes abrupt and senseless tragedy for pathos and because this show is set in NYC and English Dukes and their wives live in England. 

[peeayebee]

 

15 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

(Did anyone else audibly squeal when he touched her hand with his finger? 

I was practically scandalized! Slow your roll, Rev. Actually, I thought it was kind of hot.

I think the Rev is on the up and up. I don't distrust him at all. What I think will happen is that Ada will see how lonely Agnes will be without her, so Ada will break off the engagement.

15 hours ago, Haleth said:

Loved that Bertha had the cojones to just march in and switch the place cards.

I absolutely loved how confident and unintimidated she was by the servant who told her she was in the wrong seat. Yes, Bertha had an assist from George, but she just gave zero f's what the servant had to say.

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Peggy's story is so detached from the rest of the show it seems like it should be its own show. It's not a bad story, but it has nothing to do with the gilded age and the fluffiness of the other stories.

I feel the same. It does seems like a separate show.

I'm wondering if W.E.B. DuBois will make an appearance. He and Washington were famously at odds over how blacks should work toward equality. Washington, as we saw in this ep, preached that they should concentrate on working hard and making money to prove themselves to be worthy members of society, while DuBois said blacks should agitate more in order to gain the same civil rights as whites.

I thought it was ridiculous when Mr. Fortune opened his bedroom door shirtless. If if wasn't Peggy knocking, it could have been Mrs. Washington. (They're staying with the Washingtons, right?) Anyway, it's one of those tropes where a glimpse of nakedness or partial undress leads to declarations of attraction.

I love peonies. I think they're my favorite flowers. But what was the deal with the bee? If the purpose of that was humor, it didn't work. Or maybe it was just so Agnes could tell Bannister to remove the flowers and take the bee with him. Har. Har.

Like some others here, I'm oddly interested in John's clock-fixing hobby. The inner workings of clocks is so interesting, and when John said he was going to try to have the mechanism work with less oil (or no oil?) I became intrigued as to how he'd do that.

I thought George's comment to Bertha about the accounting errors re the opera house was strange. Bertha is not a stupid person, but she seemed to accept that unlikely explanation. It sure seems he fixed the problem with money, but he lied to Bertha about it. And we all know how she feels about lies. Why wouldn't he just tell her he paid for the work to be done?

Funny but I'm suspicious of Maude. Somehow I'm more trusting of Oscar in this relationship than I am of her. There was a moment where she got a sneaky look on her face.

I'm not quite sure what's going to happen with Turner and Bertha. I have an inkling that by the end they will combine forces to make the opera house a success.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I thought George's comment to Bertha about the accounting errors re the opera house was strange. Bertha is not a stupid person, but she seemed to accept that unlikely explanation. It sure seems he fixed the problem with money, but he lied to Bertha about it. And we all know how she feels about lies. Why wouldn't he just tell her he paid for the work to be done?

Because she had told him not to use his own money, she accepted his white lie. 

But he may have told the truth: he could have got new people to buy boxes.  

[BeatrixK]

10 hours ago, AntFTW said:

But... what if she likes the Duke? 🥺

I wonder if this is going to set up round 2 George vs. Bertha:  George promised Gladys he would let her marry for love.  Bertha could care less if love factors in - she wants a Duke in the family.

Would George defy Bertha for Gladys' happiness?

[Roseanna]

21 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

I wonder if this is going to set up round 2 George vs. Bertha:  George promised Gladys he would let her marry for love.  Bertha could care less if love factors in - she wants a Duke in the family.

Would George defy Bertha for Gladys' happiness?

After Archie, Gladys has no man who she loves. Instead, there is the duke who Bertha supposedly plans to marry Gladys.

Therefore, Bertha vs. George is rather: would George support Gladys if Bertha manipulates her daughter to marry without love? And what would George do if  Gladys thinks, as she did with Oscar, that any marriage is a way from her mother's power?  

[TV Diva Queen]

15 hours ago, DesiJF said:

Brittany Bradford.  She's also on Julia - plays Alice Namen

Dang it.....I knew I was going to hate myself when I got the answer!  thank you!

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

After Archie, Gladys has no man who she loves. Instead, there is the duke who Bertha supposedly plans to marry Gladys.

Therefore, Bertha vs. George is rather: would George support Gladys if Bertha manipulates her daughter to marry without love? And what would George do if  Gladys thinks, as she did with Oscar, that any marriage is a way from her mother's power?  

What upset Bertha was that George left her open to humiliation by not telling her what happened. I would hope George has learned his lesson and will not conspire with Gladys, should the occasion arise, but confront the issue directly. 

I think we need to see more of Gladys and Bertha together, because I'm not seeing the relationship as all that disfunctional. I get that we are supposed to be sympathetic to Bertha, and that may make it hard. I wonder if there is time to see more of their family dynamics. I imagine that George is less than perfect at times, as well--we are going to see that in the union negotiations.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Because she had told him not to use his own money, she accepted his white lie. 

But he may have told the truth: he could have got new people to buy boxes.  

We can only hope that George isn't lying to Bertha. The drama.

[Affogato]

I'm not very good at predicting this show, not least because I'm not good at romance and soap opera (and never watched Fellowes other show). But I hope that Ada and Marion and Oscar leaving Agnes' table will encourage Agnes to step out into the world. 

As a call out to Cynthia Nixon, boy, Ada is completely Ada to me. She is totally in the character. 

[Carolina Girl]

15 hours ago, Atlanta said:

If she winds up with a duke or earl, please let it turn into a love match like Cora and Robert from Downton. I really don't want her to be miserable like Consuelo Vanderbilt. 

Considering they have Bertha doing everything straight out of the Alma Vanderbilt playbook, I'd say a horrid life is in store for our Gladys.  

[iMonrey]

14 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Like some others here, I'm oddly interested in John's clock-fixing hobby. The inner workings of clocks is so interesting, and when John said he was going to try to have the mechanism work with less oil (or no oil?) I became intrigued as to how he'd do that.

I don't know where they're going with this. The subplots for the servants feel like afterthoughts to me. Jack's been working on this clock for three episodes now. That's his storyline? Fixing a clock? Is he going to wind up quitting his job as footman to open a clock shop?

[AntFTW]

13 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

don't know where they're going with this. The subplots for the servants feel like afterthoughts to me. Jack's been working on this clock for three episodes now. That's his storyline? Fixing a clock? Is he going to wind up quitting his job as footman to open a clock shop?

My guess is that they want to give us the beginnings of a success story, how someone starts from humble beginnings to, possibly, an inventor or industrialist.

[RachelKM]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:31 AM, AntFTW said:

My guess is that they want to give us the beginnings of a success story, how someone starts from humble beginnings to, possibly, an inventor or industrialist.

I agree.  Also, another person posted about how the servants on this show don't seem quite as invested in their positions as it seemed many were on Downton Abby.

I suspect this might be an attempt to show the differences in American and British society at this time, particularly as to potential for economic mobility.  It is the theme of the show, what happens within a society structured similarly to the British Ton but with a less fixed hierarchy. 

We started the show with the Russells in the last stage of their transition. Jack might be at the start of his. 

... Or, possibly, I just put 1000% more thought into this than anyone on the show. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by RachelKM

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But he may have told the truth: he could have got new people to buy boxes.  

That makes sense. He has business contacts. He is not above putting pressure on them for something that will make his wife happy. He could also have pitched it is good for their business. The opera is a chance to "accidentally" meet people that you want to discuss business with but can't get an appointment with them during the regular workday. 

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think we need to see more of Gladys and Bertha together, because I'm not seeing the relationship as all that disfunctional.

I think that was set up pretty well in the first season and there is no reason to think that Bertha has changed dramatically now that her daughter is out in society. I think she is just as controlling as ever. The fact that Gladys was so surprised she was able to go to the theatre and the party after with not much of a fight when she was clearly expecting an argument is quite telling. 

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

My guess is that they want to give us the beginnings of a success story, how someone starts from humble beginnings to, possibly, an inventor or industrialist.

39 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

We started the show with the Russells in the last stage of their transition. Jack might be at the start of his. 

YES! I was trying to find a way to say this while @AntFTW and @RachelKM did it perfectly. Jack is going to figure out a way to build a better alarm clock and will make an absolute fortune from it. He may never become as wealthy as the Russells, but he will be able to live very well and certainly be able to quit his current job. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

What upset Bertha was that George left her open to humiliation by not telling her what happened.

Yes, but George couldn't foresee that Turner will marry with a man with an old money and was a fool enough to "tell" Bertha. As a servant she couldn't do it, if she didn't want to be fired. 

On the other hand, George showed astonisning naivety for a robber baron towards Turner, speaking only that she had made a "mistake" that could be forgiven and forgotten, when her act showed her calculating and mercenary (I don't believe that she loved George as she claimed) and lack common decency and loyalty towards her mistress. 

So, George had all reasons to tell Bertha, because (a) he knew that, unliked many other wives, she would have believed him (b) Turner shouldn't have stayed at Russell's because she is a born troublemaker.

 

[RachelKM]

8 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, but George couldn't foresee that Turner will marry with a man with an old money and was a fool enough to "tell" Bertha. As a servant she couldn't do it, if she didn't want to be fired.

He knew she was courting Turner for the Met and he still didn't warn her.  there was an argument for not telling her while Turner was still providing useful support. (Though I'd argue that the idea of her lady's maid, in whom she confided so much, being a backstabbing bitch would be something Bertha would prefer to know.)

There is no justification in my opinion for letting Bertha be blindsided in her own home. 

[peeayebee]

I think something more will happen with whatever George did to rectify the work stoppage at the opera house. After all, what was the point of this event? If he paid workers with his own money, I can't imagine that would be the end of it. Maybe Bertha finds out and is, again, angry at his lying. If he "persuaded" colleagues to buy boxes, I assume this would be revealed to us (and Bertha?), and then.... What would result? 

[AntFTW]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:24 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

Bertha changed the dinner table seating. One staff member tried to correct her. George spoke to him sternly, and that’s it?

On 11/20/2023 at 2:44 PM, RachelKM said:

Honestly, I think the butler saying anything at all was intended to confirm that the he hadn't noticed the card switch and was reacting out of shock.  Once the card was there and Bertha was being seated at her apparent correct setting in a room full of guests, it was a fait accompli.

23 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

I think at that point, with everyone coming in to get seated, the servant chose the better part of valor and decided not to get into it with George. He knew it could be a big scene and the hosts of the event (his employers) would not like that at all.

I don’t think he was staff. He was wearing the same penguin attire as George, Oscar and the Duke. I think he was another guest. 🤔

[Tango64]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don’t think he was staff. He was wearing the same penguin attire as George, Oscar and the Duke. I think he was another guest.

I thought he was the butler. At first a shy footman questioned her, and then the butler(?) at the last moment. At first I thought it was very unrealistic to think she could change the seating and take the most prestigious spot next to the guest of honor without causing a huge scene. It would have been a brazen violation of the social rules. But then I realized she waited until the last minute when any further questioning would have caused a big scene that was worse than what she was doing. And as someone above noted, I'm sure everyone at the table noticed and was talking about it for the rest of the night. But Bertha got what she wanted.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Tango64
Typo

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don’t think he was staff. He was wearing the same penguin attire as George, Oscar and the Duke. I think he was another guest. 🤔

He was definitely staff. All of the staff were wearing black suits (tails?) with white bowties that extended extremely squarely and widely such that they were over the lapels. (This style of tie may have a name but, if so, I don't know it.)

The man who interrupted was standing near the door and against the wall just in front of other staff and popped forward out of the shadows.  And after he was essentially dismissed by George, he walked down the room unaccompanied and apparently past the table.

A guest would have no reason to question any of the seating and, unless they had also gone in to scope all the settings, would not necessarily even know where others were place. Also, the male guests were escorting the women into the room.  

I just re-watched that scene and I do understand the confusion.  He had a white waistcoat and low button jacket that was different from the footmen whose jackets were buttoned up the front.  This is why I assumed he was the butler.
 

ETA:  Because I had logged in and pulled up the episode, I went ahead and watched Turner's tantrum again.  Holy shit, it's hilarious! The last tantrum I saw that was that campy ended in being weighed a "Bad Egg" and falling down a chute. 

Subtlety, thy name is not The Gilded Age.

Edited November 21, 2023 by RachelKM
Typos

[AntFTW]

21 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

He was definitely staff. All of the staff were wearing black suits (tails?) with white bow ties that extended extremely squarely and widely such that they were over the lapels. (This style of tie may have a name but, if so, I don't know it,.)

The man who interrupted was standing near the door and against the with just in front of other staff and popped forward out of the shadows.  And after he was essentially dismissed by George, he walked down the room unaccompanied and apparently past the table.

A guest would have not reason to question any of the seating and, unless they had also gone in to scope all the settings, would not necessarily even know where others were place. Also, the male guests were escorting the women into the room.  

I just re-watched that scene and I do understand the confusion.  He had a white waistcoat and low button jacket that was slightly different from the footman whose jackets were buttoned up the front.  This is why I assumed he was the butler.

Ok, then I take that back. I didn't realize he was standing near the door as people walked in. 🤔

When he walks up to the Russells, his attire looks nearly the same as the guests.

[KatyH]

I thought that Oscars new lady might actually be trying to scam him.  She seemed to be edging him on to help her with her plight.   I don't think Oscar is the brightest.  He may get into real trouble if this is the case.

[taanja]

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Funny but I'm suspicious of Maude. Somehow I'm more trusting of Oscar in this relationship than I am of her. There was a moment where she got a sneaky look on her face..

I think she is looking for a beard just like Oscar. Or shall we say -- a marriage of convenience?