S02.E03: Head to Head

[MissLucas]

I'm also surprised Bertha did not have more trust in George. But in true style she weaponized his guilt for getting ahead of Turner with regards to the Duke of Buckingham. 

I also enjoyed McAllister squirming when he realized that Bertha forced him to choose a side. I predict he'll stay at home with the flu at opening night. 

I can't blame Larry - it's Laura Benanti! But it will not end well.

Peggy should listen to her mother. There's always the spectre of Ida B. Wells looming over her character so I'm not particularly looking forward to how that trip to Alabama unfolds. 

Miss Beaton has a paid companion, was to Paris and seems rather forward for her age. If show's Oscar plays his cards right there might be a lavender wedding on the horizon.

I know I'm supposed to like Ada and her sweetness but I can't help it -occasionally I find myself in deep understanding of Agnes. Loved the quiet understanding between butler and mistress during the chowder scene.

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, RachelKM said:

I don't think she was especially vulnerable to the extent that she necessarily believed Turner. But Turner seemed certain enough of herself to make Bertha doubt even so slightly and at least suspect she was kept out of the loop about something. And she was right about that last bit.

I think that is part of her anger.  She knew Turner was calculating and had ambitions. But while Turner was helpful to her and not overstepping with the men of the family (Bertha only suspected as to Larry), Bertha didn't mind that side.  George withholding the information left Bertha vulnerable to Turner both while she was working for her, to the extent Turner might plot against her within her own home, and now giving Turner ammunition 

I don't think it was said that Turner has ingratiated herself. I could swear McCallister said no one really knew her.  And Bertha doesn't have to launch a frontal attack.  Her servants could be let loose to talk and it would be out in no time.  Then she would have the luxury of merely confirming it and acting as if she was being magnanimous thinking to give the climber a chance. 

Yes, Mrs Fish I think said she had many friends already, and then mentioned the european honeymoon among royalty, which did ingratiate her with a lot of the old money (although I did not say so).  We haven't seen that Bertha has many friends that you would call friends. Mr McAllister and Mrs Fish play the field. I didn't say 'ingratiate', but it sounded to me like she has been more successful at this than Bertha, who merely spends money.

I'm guessing, with the issues in Pennsylvania, George may be a bit less liquid and accomodating for a while, and Bertha may be having a hard time in the storyline. I imagine she comes out of it, but maybe later. Just a guess though.

[RachelKM]

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Yes, Mrs Fish I think said she had many friends already, and then mentioned the european honeymoon among royalty, which did ingratiate her with a lot of the old money (although I did not say so).  We haven't seen that Bertha has many friends that you would call friends. Mr McAllister and Mrs Fish play the field. I didn't say 'ingratiate', but it sounded to me like she has been more successful at this than Bertha, who merely spends money.

Okay, I may have missed that.  Just the same, it doesn't sound like they really know her and Turner is presently riding on the fame of having visited European aristocracy (who themselves would have no knowledge about her).  If turner is currently doing well by spending talk of her successes in Europe, then her reputation is even more vulnerable than if she had earned it through genuine friendships. 

[Affogato]

5 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Okay, I may have missed that.  Just the same, it doesn't sound like they really know her and Turner is presently riding on the fame of having visited European aristocracy (who themselves would have no knowledge about her).  If turner is currently doing well by spending talk of her successes in Europe, then her reputation is even more vulnerable than if she had earned it through genuine friendships. 

Honestly, I have no real idea of the relative social importance of all of these revelations. People talk them back and forth, but I think we need a genuine historian to sort them out. Perhaps the podcasts will help.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Bertha was also told that Turner has made friends with many of the established families already. And Bertha, she has not. If Bertha makes accusations about Turner, they may be passed off as jealousy, where if Turner makes public some things she learned, they may be considered gossip. I think this season, as shows are paced, may end on a down note for Bertha.

58 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I don't think it was said that Turner has ingratiated herself. I could swear McCallister said no one really knew her.  And Bertha doesn't have to launch a frontal attack.  Her servants could be let loose to talk and it would be out in no time.  Then she would have the luxury of merely confirming it and acting as if she was being magnanimous thinking to give the climber a chance. 

53 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Yes, Mrs Fish I think said she had many friends already, and then mentioned the european honeymoon among royalty, which did ingratiate her with a lot of the old money (although I did not say so).

Mrs. Fish said that her social standing was "gathering pace" so I don't Turner is all the way in but she's getting there, and probably quickly.

[Juneau Gal]

Turner was not dismissed by George after her advances, what was she dismissed for? I can’t remember. Thanks in advance. 

[AntFTW]

11 minutes ago, Juneau Gal said:

Turner was not dismissed by George after her advances, what was she dismissed for? I can’t remember.

Turner was caught getting comfortable with Oscar, or least that was the perception so Agnes requested Turner be fired. Then, Bertha saw Turner getting too comfortable with Larry. Then, Bertha fired her.

Edited November 13, 2023 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Another fun episode.  I find it hard to believe that in such a gossipy society, Turner could marry someone from old money and not generate any fuss or even curiosity.  Her husband surely would have had friends, family, or even neighbors who questioned the back story of "that woman" and did some investigating before they walked down the aisle.  Turner's history as a lady's maid in the old money world would have also likely caused some to recognize her origins. 

Wasn't it told that they were married before anyone had met the bride?

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I'm also surprised Bertha did not have more trust in George.

I think even in the most trusting relationship, it's hard to get past your husband not telling you that your maid propositioned him and got naked in his bed.  George also didn't help things by trying to act like he was doing Bertha a favor by not saying anything. 

 

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Peggy should listen to her mother. There's always the spectre of Ida B. Wells looming over her character so I'm not particularly looking forward to how that trip to Alabama unfolds. 

I was a little surprised as to how naive Peggy appears to be.  Even if they aren't big news in the mainstream press, surely she has read about the kind of atrocities that have happened to blacks in the South in the black press.  Perhaps she thinks she'll have extra protection because she'll be in Booker T. Washington's company. 

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, peridot said:

I think Peggy is making a big mistake traveling to Alabama, not only traveling by herself with a married man but also traveling to a place where you're not considered human.  Her mother's warnings made me anxious for next week.

 

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Peggy should not go south of the Mason Dixon line, but she is obviously positioned to show us a part of the world we wouldn't otherwise see for ourselves. My wild guess is that she will be good and humble, but will move to help someone--a black boy, perhaps?--and get into trouble that way. If she lives, it will be a good article.

 

9 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I was a little surprised as to how naive Peggy appears to be.  Even if they aren't big news in the mainstream press, surely she has read about the kind of atrocities that have happened to blacks in the South in the black press.  Perhaps she thinks she'll have extra protection because she'll be in Booker T. Washington's company. 

I understand Peggy's mother - of course all mothers would be worried. But if Peggy wants to become a real journalist and later an author, she can't avoid risks.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I understand Peggy's mother - of course all mothers would be worried. But if Peggy wants to become a real journalist and later an author, she can't avoid risks.

This is true. But no one, and certainly not a journalist, should take risks without fully understanding what the risks are and how to operate within them. 

 It's not readily apparent whether Peggy truly understands the specific risk she would be taking.  She has undoubtedly experienced racism in her life. But people being rude and/or condescending or denying you service in a shop (or simply knowing not to go into certain shops to begin with) is not the same as risking murder with eye contact.  And it seems that Peggy has been (and bless the Scotts for good parenting on this front) mostly shielded from the harshest forms of racism. 

Also, and this is just speculation on my part, but as a person who has experienced a type of ethnic bigotry but been reasonably privileged within my own minority, I can say there is a bit of a tendency of the privileged within a minority to either minimize the realities others in their group may experience or view themselves as apart from and possibly immune to those harsher forms of racism.  Some part of her brain may just assume that being a Northern, well off black woman who was clearly educated in both classic schooling and etiquette would set her apart and exempt her from the worst of it. It's possible that with some people it might. But for the worst racists, her polish could itself stoke their ire that she's above herself or setting herself above them. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by RachelKM
typos

[AntFTW]

20 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I understand Peggy's mother - of course all mothers would be worried. But if Peggy wants to become a real journalist and later an author, she can't avoid risks.

Sure, then Peggy should at least listen to the advice about how to conduct herself to reduce the risks as much as feasibly possible.

Peggy has experienced racism but not the kind of racism in the South. The way she stood up for herself with Armstrong, she can't do that in the South, and she will have no recourse as she does in the van Rhijn household.

When Peggy says to her mother "you're telling me to be subservient?", my response was "yes, if that means you make it home alive."

Edited November 14, 2023 by AntFTW

[tennisgurl]

I had no idea Oscar Wilde went through an unfortunate "boring War and Peace knock off" phase before he started writing actually fun plays. At least he was always everyone's favorite party guest, I do love this shows random historical guest stars. 

If Turner thinks that she can play in the big leagues, she has another thing coming. She plays big and obvious in a way that Bertha does but she isn't smart or willy enough to go beyond "get naked in my bosses husbands bed" in her plans while Bertha has a lot more smarts. I knew that George not telling Bertha what Turner did would blow up in his face later, not helped by him downplaying what a dumb move that was. I'm sure that they will be back on the same page soon though, especially now that it looks like the strike is coming. 

I wonder if all of these stories of Turner marrying rich, the valet going from having a valet to being a valet, and now the union workers going on strike, especially against the new money Russels, we are getting a theme of how loose these carefully constructed social norms were becoming, how it was becoming easier to fall or rise and how people born in the working class were fighting to get their piece of the pie at last. 

I'm sure that Peggy's trip to Alabama wont be too bad, this is Julien Fellows costume porn not Mississippi Burning, but she's being shockingly naive about the dangers of her going down south. I know that she wants to be a reporter, but there had to have been an easier place to start. 

I enjoyed the looks that Peggy and Marianne were exchanging as Aunt Agnes and Mrs. Astor prepared for Opera War, they were both keeping it proper but also seemed pretty bemused at all of this drama.   

Get it Aunt Ada! I can totally see a vibe between her and the minister, I hope that Agnes doesn't get to snippy about it. 

[taanja]

19 hours ago, peridot said:

I think Peggy is making a big mistake traveling to Alabama, not only traveling by herself with a married man but also traveling to a place where you're not considered human.  Her mother's warnings made me anxious for next week.

 

I got total Emmett Till vibes!

Peggy thinks she is going on a big adventure! This is what? 15 - 20 years after the civil war? yeah. I do NOT see this ending well.

[EdnasEdibles]

I truly don't understand why Agnes is so sour all the damn time. She appears to get no joy out of life. I know that she had a rough go with her husband but good God lady. She sneers at everyone.  Why is Rev. Dead Poets Society so horrendously awful in her opinion? Why does she need to cut Ada down every 10 minutes? The only time I saw anything close to pleasure was when she realized she could send threatening letters out to opera fans. 

I need to either see a flashback explaining why she is the way that she is or have them show a moment of sweetness because otherwise she drives me crazy. 

 

[RachelKM]

4 hours ago, taanja said:

I got total Emmett Till vibes!

Peggy thinks she is going on a big adventure! This is what? 15 - 20 years after the civil war? yeah. I do NOT see this ending well.

It's 18 years since the end of the Civil War.  Reconstruction ended in 1877.  When it ended, the South went through an almost immediate and harsh backswing in which local governments enacted a string of laws to undo any gains in political and social power made by former slaves. The era is sometimes called the Redemption era after the policy of a particularly disgusting southern white supremacy "political" movement called the Redeemers.

Edited November 14, 2023 by RachelKM

[ofmd]

21 hours ago, peridot said:

Are Oscar Wilde's plays known to be boring? I thought he was popular in his time.

Actually, his comedies are quite entertaining even today. I assume this was an early attempt before he found his footing. Almost every author/ playwright has some stinkers...

ETA: Should have read rest of thread first, I see others have pointed it out. Nvm.

I like this season much better than the first one, there's less pretense of being anything other than a soap opera that happens to feature more or less historical settings and events and better production values. It also helps that our crazy charismatic Marian has less screentime.

Here's hoping for a pool fight between Bertha and Turner!

I still can't bring myself to care whether a bunch of new [insert expletive]s will manage to be accepted by the bunch of old [ditto]s, including the opera fight, which is a pity because unlike Bertha, I actually love opera.

I still find her very one-dimensional, although I actually really like the actress, particularly her voice and modulation.

I'm mostly watching for the story of Peggy, which somehow rings a bit more true to me than the rest. I'm also concerned for her safety in the South, the scene with her mother was very haunting.

And for Agnes and Ada's snark of course!

I'd root for those crazy kids, Larry and his milf, but they seem particularly careless with the social consequences, which I assume will mostly affect her, not him.

17 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Poor Larry. Mrs. Blaine is having a summer fling with a finite ending. 

My impression is that they're both not terribly in love, just enjoying each other's company and the passion between them.

I like the low-key romance between Ada and the vicar from Dead Poets Society (loved his character there) but can't see this ending well, either. There's the age difference (which wouldn't be a problem if the roles were reversed) and apparently, a lowly man of the church won't be accepted by Agnes. Well, maybe Ada will surprise us!

(Funny, when the vicar first mentioned he hadn't found a wife yet, I thought maybe he was meant for Oscar. Ada is much nicer, though.)

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But isn't it odd that we are discussing about George's very small *private* mistake when he revealed his ruthless character with the union man, not to speak of his opinion that "anyone can be bought" (which was true with "old money" men and wives in the first season).  

It's Julian Fellowes, who imho does not care for the lower classes unless they're working for and fiercely loyal to the upper class (or as villains), so union dude may indeed have a price, or George might even find some deep dark secret and blackmail him. As for discussing it... I'm trying to actively repress these aspects of the show.

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Miss Beaton has a paid companion, was to Paris and seems rather forward for her age. If show's Oscar plays his cards right there might be a lavender wedding on the horizon.

Ah yes, I forgot! That was gaydar worthy. I didn't expect it from Mr Fellowes but will be thrilled if I'm wrong.

Edited November 14, 2023 by ofmd

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I truly don't understand why Agnes is so sour all the damn time.

I only have a Doylist (or rather Fellowsist) answer: she's this show's Dowager Countess.

[Meedis]

8 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I can't stand CN's acting these days. As Ada she speaks in a high-pitched old lady voice and bleats out inanities. Her sister's snark in response saves us. (You're not a rector. It's not your place to bless anybody.")

Why is Peggy wearing expensive fussy silks to a grubby newspaper office? In real life her character would be wearing sensible plain cotton that is easily cleaned.

And of course continued into the mid-20th century. Felowes, who loves to misrepresent American history, will have a field day with all the tropes. Prediction: Peggy will be endangered and handsome publisher will save her.

Or worse the handsome publisher may wind up being lynched trying to save her.   Guess we shall see.

[kristen111]

21 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

And we still don’t know Turner’s first name!😆

Tina.   Couldn’t resist.

[peeayebee]

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I can understand why Bertha's mad a George, certainly, but if I were her I'd at least look forward to telling Turner how embarassing it must have been for her to get naked and then get thrown out of bed. 

That would be awesome. 

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This doesn't make much sense. Does Turner care about people finding out she was Bertha's Ladies Maid, or not? Because if she does care, the last place on earth she should have gone was back to the Russell house. She might be able to convince Bertha to keep quiet about it but yes - servants talk. They will recognize her and the word will spread like wildfire. Maybe she just doesn't care that word will get out, but she acted like she did.

Good points. I don't know if more will be revealed about Turner's plans, but right now I think this is just poor writing. We're supposed to see Turner as an evil schemer who has the upper hand. I don't think we're supposed to think about it too much. I'm sure we'll see her downfall, and I look forward to that.

I didn't like how Bertha reacted to George's explanation of what happened, but I understand. I understand both of their arguments. I wish George had told her at the time what Turner had done, and yet I see his POV, that HE did nothing wrong, that he kept mum because Bertha was dependent on Turner. I expect, and hope, that given a little more time Bertha will get past her anger. 

22 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Turner must have really liked this other servant to keep in touch with him and tell him the details of how she met Mr. Joshua Winterton.

I'm suspicious of him. The way she and he traded looks made me think he was her spy on the inside. I hope not.

21 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I really liked the way he was portrayed in LILLIE by Peter Egan (1978, fab PBS series about Lillie Langtry)

YES! As my sister and I were watching this episode, I said my favorite portrayer of Wilde was Peter Egan in Lillie. OMG. I can picture a scene betw them where she wants to be with him, but he, although he adores her, explains that he can't. *Swoon*

I'm loving the interplay betw Ada and the Reverend. They are made for each other. However, I'm sure this will end sadly, probably because of Agnes.

I'm always a little uncomfortable with the servant scenes, particularly when they're downstairs discussing the goings-on upstairs. It seems so phony and forced. I didn't feel that way with Downton Abbey. Is it the writing? The acting? The English accents? I don't know, but I wish it didn't bother me so much. 

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Affogato said:

The valet, formerly a businessman, seems like a somewhat connected storyline. It may be that moving on up is good, moving down is bad.

 

Moving up is bad too. The Russel's have moved up and Old Money was not amused.

Turner's in a different position since she's married into old money, but Agnes is constantly checking out the histories of everybody when it comes to marriage. Hard to think that somebody being Mrs. Russel's former maid wouldn't have everybody laughing. 

7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I'm also surprised Bertha did not have more trust in George. But in true style she weaponized his guilt for getting ahead of Turner with regards to the Duke of Buckingham. 

Her trust seemed right on target to me. She believed that he didn't sleep with Turner, but was angry at what he did do.

 

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I was a little surprised as to how naive Peggy appears to be.  Even if they aren't big news in the mainstream press, surely she has read about the kind of atrocities that have happened to blacks in the South in the black press.  Perhaps she thinks she'll have extra protection because she'll be in Booker T. Washington's company. 

I think it's the type of thing you can't understand until you've experienced it. Peggy wants to go there because she believes in what she's doing and thinks she'll write the story well, and she's right, but a person who's been treated as human all their life might think they know the score--until they're there. 

3 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I'm always a little uncomfortable with the servant scenes, particularly when they're downstairs discussing the goings-on upstairs. It seems so phony and forced. I didn't feel that way with Downton Abbey. Is it the writing? The acting? The English accents? I don't know, but I wish it didn't bother me so much. 

Agreed. So far the only servant scenes that seem very real is the German Maid and the guy from Brooklyn, because she's hilarious goggling at Turner. But nobody has the natural authority of a Carson or the housekeeper at Downton. Maybe that's part of it, that the younger members of the staff just don't seem to have any natural respect for others in the staff, because they don't have the same cultural history.

Edited November 14, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Brn2bwild]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Wasn't it told that they were married before anyone had met the bride?

But that's what is so odd.  In a society like this, would Turner really go under the radar long enough to have a whole wedding with a distinguished old money gentleman?  And even if she did, wouldn't the speed and secrecy of the marriage alone have drawn people's curiosity?  Enough so that someone would have poked around in Turner's background and tried to get her true story?  

[howiveaddict]

10 hours ago, ahpny said:

Because whatever you think the characters she plays or her personal views on anything, many still think she's a pretty good actress.

Clearly gaydar worked just fine 140 years ago too.

 

Perhaps, but I think Bertha's stance is inappropriately and ahistorically projecting current sensibilities back to a time when relationships between husbands and wifes were different, especially for "robber baron" types of husbands. He has all the power and, from his perspective, did nothing wrong. In fact, many (most?) husbands in that era would not have turned down the offer. He did with no hesitation as soon as he realized who she was. I was surprised that he caved as he did to Bertha about his "mistake" - that seemed out of character for the supposedly tough guy that he is. Maybe this story tangent serves to cement and demonstrate the love he really does have for his wife.

Exactly. It was the norm for upper class men to have a mistress. In fact, in real live, Mr Russel would have been the agresser.  Turner, however would never be accepted into society no matter how old money she married.   Bertha only has to hint at Turner's beginnings and Turner would have been shunned.  Bertha might even gauge more sympathy with the rest of the society women by having a cheating husband in common with them.  Many society women, at that time, lived basically separate lives from their husbands.

I recently read Anderson Cooper's story about the Vanderbilts and it was a very interesting read.  He also has a book about the Astors' history I want to read.

[AntFTW]

13 hours ago, RachelKM said:

The irony is, of course and hamfisted as it is, that she is literally sowing the seeds of her own humiliation with her inability to just not do the petty asshole thing.  She has very little impulse control when it comes to her jealousy and now that she (wrongly) considers herself invulnerable to the Russells, she's not even trying to act with restraint. 

This is the odd part for me.

Turner has what she wants. She literally has no reason to be around the Russells if she didn't want to be around. She's has her wealthy old man. She's traveling across Europe and meeting European noblemen. She's mingling with the old money people. Even though she may be "new", her husband being "old" is giving her some amount of goodwill to mingle among the old crowd. She's socializing in Newport.

Yet, she can't help herself but to flaunt her elevation to the Russells, which does nothing for her. She didn't have to go to Bertha's event, but she went. She didn't have to tell this story about her "desperate friend" that couldn't get a box at the Academy, and also didn't have to rub it in. Yet, she does, which does nothing for her.

...and I think Bertha was genuinely nice to her. Turner's ability to be petty is legendary. She couldn't be that mad at a job that she didn't want, and a job that wouldn't have allowed her to meet her rich husband.

A slight separate point, I'm kind of over Bertha inviting people to her house and showing all the hospitality and the guests just feel the need to be rude to her in her house.

Edited November 14, 2023 by AntFTW

[AuntTora]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:58 PM, iMonrey said:

I was particularly distracted by the scene with Marian and Peggy in Marian's bedroom when Peggy was telling Marian about her trip to Alabama. The bottom of the screen was blurry, and then I kept noticing it in other scenes.

Same!

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

But that's what is so odd.  In a society like this, would Turner really go under the radar long enough to have a whole wedding with a distinguished old money gentleman?  And even if she did, wouldn't the speed and secrecy of the marriage alone have drawn people's curiosity?  Enough so that someone would have poked around in Turner's background and tried to get her true story?  

Yes, it's odd. Even in the other circles, there should have been an introduction to relatives. Marrying in haste caused a suspicion: is she pregnant? But Turner isn't (or she has miscarried).

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Turner's in a different position since she's married into old money, but Agnes is constantly checking out the histories of everybody when it comes to marriage. 

That. Turner must present a backstory that can't easily checked (born and raised in California or something). 

[BeatrixK]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:04 PM, Straycat80 said:

Or maybe she’ll be in cahoots with him to learn dirt on the Russell’s to further her social status and stick it to Bertha? 

DINGDINGDINGDING!

She needs someone giving her house intel.

But I suspect Bertha's plan is to get to the Duke first to

1.) Spill Turner's Tea (A duke ain't gonna see it as a good idea to go chill with a former servant)

2.)  Get him engaged to Agnes.

But Bertha is not about to let Turner get the better of her.  When Turner was all 'Hmmm...go ask your husband!'  I thought 'Grrrrlllll.....you are shooting WAY to early!'

I love Aunt Ada all crushy - she's so adorable.  But Agnes ain't gonna like living along after Marion marries off and she's stuck with evil Turner!  I think that's what she is against more than Ada and the Rector - she doesn't want to be alone.

Larry and the Older lady - meh...I just hope he doesn't knock her up.  And he's wasting his time with older lady because he belongs with Marion!!!!!  (Yeah, Daschell is nice and all, but Marion is so cute with Larry!!!!)

And I still hope for an epic love story to unfold between Mrs. Bruce and Boudin!  I swear I love the subtle flirtation these two occasionally do - and I just inexplicably adore Mrs. Bruce. 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I didn't like how Bertha reacted to George's explanation of what happened, but I understand. I understand both of their arguments. I wish George had told her at the time what Turner had done, and yet I see his POV, that HE did nothing wrong, that he kept mum because Bertha was dependent on Turner. I expect, and hope, that given a little more time Bertha will get past her anger. 

Yes, even in best marriages there are cases where the other party is hurt and angry by another party's action even if it has been done with good intentions, only partners have have a little different view what is "good". if one can't forgive such things, one shouldn't marry.

However, this case shows that when a person wants to "spare" another, the consequence can be worse. And actually, Mr Russell regarded Turmer's behavior only as a mistake, although it showed a serious flaw of character and morality.

Already when Turmer earlier put her on his arm should have been a warning signal - such things weren't simply done by a decent woman.

[Roseanna]

19 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

But I suspect Bertha's plan is to get to the Duke first to

1.) Spill Turner's Tea (A duke ain't gonna see it as a good idea to go chill with a former servant)

I think the crux of the matter is: why did Turner mention the duke? Only a very stupid person wouldn't have anticipated how Bertha would react. 

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

This is the odd part for me.

Turner has what she wants. She literally has no reason to be around the Russells if she didn't want to be around. She's has her wealthy old man. She's traveling across Europe and meeting European noblemen. She's mingling with the old money people. Even though she may be "new", her husband being "old" is giving her some amount of goodwill to mingle among the old crowd. She's socializing in Newport.

Yet, she can't help herself but to flaunt her elevation to the Russells, which does nothing for her. She didn't have to go to Bertha's event, but she went. She didn't have to tell this story about her "desperate friend" that couldn't get a box at the Academy, and also didn't have to rub it in. Yet, she does, which does nothing for her.

...and I think Bertha was genuinely nice to her. Turner's ability to be petty is legendary. She couldn't be that mad at a job that she didn't want, and a job that wouldn't have allowed her to meet her rich husband.

If Turner were a sensible person she would be satisfied -- even happy -- with where she is. But that's not who this character is. She never liked Bertha. She wants to lord it over her because she's a spiteful, bad, selfish person.

2 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

But I suspect Bertha's plan is to get to the Duke first to

1.) Spill Turner's Tea (A duke ain't gonna see it as a good idea to go chill with a former servant)

2.)  Get him engaged to Agnes.

Wha? Why should she do that? I don't even feel like Agnes is on her radar.

[kristen111]

Loved this episode.  Chock full of goodies.  Bertha confronting George was very moving.  I could feel her pain.

[AntFTW]

36 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

If Turner were a sensible person she would be satisfied -- even happy -- with where she is. But that's not who this character is. She never liked Bertha. She wants to lord it over her because she's a spiteful, bad, selfish person.

No one should be that petty, but she is though. 😂

She doesn’t want to be exposed but I’m sure she’s going to keep risking exposure.

i think if Turner is going to be around, they should develop her character more. Turner only being petty isn’t going to be entertaining for all that long.

[Yeah No]

26 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

If Turner were a sensible person she would be satisfied -- even happy -- with where she is. But that's not who this character is. She never liked Bertha. She wants to lord it over her because she's a spiteful, bad, selfish person.

Ay, and that's what's going to be Turner's undoing, in my opinion.  She also thinks she has more power than she does.  It bit her in the ass last season and will probably again in this one.  And no one should underestimate Bertha, whether it comes to this situation or rivaling operas, as anyone familiar with NYC history will understand.

As far as "gaydar" goes, considering how in-denial straight people were about homosexuality in the late 19th century, I doubt that all but the most worldly, observant and/or unconventional people (like Oscar Wilde) would recognize it.  I wouldn't expect most upper class women to be able to see it, even in their own families, especially considering how closeted their gay relatives would have been.  This is one of those situations where I think imposing our modern day consciousness on the time misses the mark.

 

[peeayebee]

33 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Ay, and that's what's going to be Turner's undoing, in my opinion.

Her fatal flaw.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think the crux of the matter is: why did Turner mention the duke? Only a very stupid person wouldn't have anticipated how Bertha would react. 

Unless it isn’t the Buckingham, and she anyicipates Bertha will try to get yhe jmp n Turner and be embarassed

[iMonrey]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Turner's in a different position since she's married into old money, but Agnes is constantly checking out the histories of everybody when it comes to marriage. Hard to think that somebody being Mrs. Russel's former maid wouldn't have everybody laughing. 

I'll be interested to see where this goes. I have a sneaking suspicion Turner's new husband is going to die - he's pretty old, right? In real life I think that would put an end to any of Turner's ambitions to become a great lady of society, since her husband is currently her only connection to it. But if the show tries to play her as some kind of high society mucky muck even as a widow, it's not going to be realistic. It won't be long before everyone knows she came from nothing and is essentially a gold digger. She'll be just as much of an outcast as Mrs. Chamberlaine.

[Atlanta]

If Turner's husband dies, her best bet is to move far from New York and settle herself comfortably in a city like Chicago where no one will know her past. She would be 'just' a wealthy widow and could mingle there. IMO, Boston and Philadelphia would still be too close. If he dies and she remarries too quick, that would look bad also. 

[chaifan]

15 hours ago, Meedis said:

Or worse the handsome publisher may wind up being lynched trying to save her.   Guess we shall see.

This is my guess, too.  Something happens (or almost happens) to Peggy, publisher steps in to save her, and he is either given a massive beat down, publicly whipped, or lynched.  I'm going with "just" beaten up, as it would be hard to continue with Peggy's story line if it was worse than that.  I do not like that he's married, and it's obvious there will be a scandal in that regard.  I wish Fellowes made him single, and a good love match for Peggy.

12 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Turner has what she wants. She literally has no reason to be around the Russells if she didn't want to be around.

Oh, I disagree.  Turner has the rich husband and the wealth, and the introduction of society.  But what she really wants is to lord over Bertha in some way, prove that she's "better" than Bertha, higher on the society ladder.  She absolutely wanted to be back in that house. 

But, I think the writing was still sloppy.  Even if we are to believe that Bertha will not out Turner for her own self serving reasons, there is no reason to believe that the Russell servants will not spill this to other household servants (like the VR's) and that it will go from ladies maids up to the society ladies they serve in those houses.  And Turner would very well know that.  So Turner, who we have been led to believe is not stupid, is now doing a very very stupid thing by showing up at the Russell's.  I don't want a stupid Turner.  The only way to save this, in my opinion, is for us to learn that Turner's husband is well aware of her background but will 100% back her in society, will ruin anyone who snubs her, so there's nothing anyone can gain by "outing" her. 

I love Mrs. Astor's backdoor threat of pulling boxes from any Academy patrons who also get a box at the Met, and her engaging Agnes as her conspirator in this.  I think that will be an effective threat and Mrs. Astor will win that battle. 

The valet story continues to bore me. 

The not-french chef continues to amuse me.

I don't really care about the George vs. the Union plot, but I think it's rather tone deaf of George to invite the Union guy to his massive massive home and then claim he can't afford to pay the workers more.  I was really hoping that there would be a compromise there - that George wouldn't be a 100% robber baron asshole, and would be just a tiny bit progressive for the time.  Maybe agree with Union guy on the safety issues, and become a leader in the industry for that.  I'd rather see George battle the other corporate men on something like that than George vs. the union. 

[peeayebee]

Yes, it would be nice if George were more progressive, but he's more of the mind, like Bertha, that money can buy you out of any problem. Rather than see that the flaunting of his wealth would do nothing to persuade the union leader, he felt assured that he could buy him off.

[RachelKM]

15 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I didn't like how Bertha reacted to George's explanation of what happened, but I understand. I understand both of their arguments. I wish George had told her at the time what Turner had done, and yet I see his POV, that HE did nothing wrong, that he kept mum because Bertha was dependent on Turner. I expect, and hope, that given a little more time Bertha will get past her anger. 

I think a major part of her anger was being left vulnerable to Turner both in terms of Turner having knowledge of a secret with George versus Bertha's ignorance as Turner acted as confidant and leaving her open to exactly what Turner did at the tea.  At the very least, he should have told her when she was considering courting Turner for the Met. 

But that is a society woman's sort of warfare and it is possible that George doesn't even understand the dynamics at play.

56 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

If Turner's husband dies, her best bet is to move far from New York and settle herself comfortably in a city like Chicago where no one will know her past. She would be 'just' a wealthy widow and could mingle there. IMO, Boston and Philadelphia would still be too close. If he dies and she remarries too quick, that would look bad also. 

But then how would she lord her status over Mrs. Russell?  Seriously, it seems to be this character's raison d'etre.

The reality of Turner's situation is that she is extremely vulnerable to being completely demolished in society.  Right now she is just a wife of an old money man with no past but who has cultivated some cache with tales of her socializing in Europe with the highest in society. 

If either the old or new money crowds of NY find out about her past, not only would she be stopped dead in her tracks but her new acquaintances will drop her like cheap lace. The old money will be doubly offended because they were taken in by her and the new money would view her as toxic (also, there's no snob like a new snob). 

The notion of one of their ladies maids marrying one of their husbands is nightmare fuel for these women.

Edited November 14, 2023 by RachelKM

[sugarbaker design]

9 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I was really hoping that there would be a compromise there - that George wouldn't be a 100% robber baron asshole, and would be just a tiny bit progressive for the time.  Maybe agree with Union guy on the safety issues, and become a leader in the industry for that.  I'd rather see George battle the other corporate men on something like that than George vs. the union. 

I like the fact that George Russell is a doting husband, protective and loving father, yet is also a 100% robber baron asshole.  Such an interesting character.

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

As far as "gaydar" goes, considering how in-denial straight people were about homosexuality in the late 19th century, I doubt that all but the most worldly, observant and/or unconventional people (like Oscar Wilde) would recognize it.  I wouldn't expect most upper class women to be able to see it, even in their own families, especially considering how closeted their gay relatives would have been.  This is one of those situations where I think imposing our modern day consciousness on the time misses the mark.

Word.  In 15 years after his play debuted in NYC, Wilde will be tried, vilified in the press and imprisoned in the UK.

[AntFTW]

19 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Oh, I disagree.  Turner has the rich husband and the wealth, and the introduction of society.  But what she really wants is to lord over Bertha in some way, prove that she's "better" than Bertha, higher on the society ladder.  She absolutely wanted to be back in that house.

I feel like we're saying the same things unless I'm misinterpreting you. 🤔

[RachelKM]

4 hours ago, chaifan said:

I don't really care about the George vs. the Union plot, but I think it's rather tone deaf of George to invite the Union guy to his massive massive home and then claim he can't afford to pay the workers more.  I was really hoping that there would be a compromise there - that George wouldn't be a 100% robber baron asshole, and would be just a tiny bit progressive for the time.  Maybe agree with Union guy on the safety issues, and become a leader in the industry for that.  I'd rather see George battle the other corporate men on something like that than George vs. the union. 

It was tone deaf and very not savy for his negotiation goals. But I don't believe George said he couldn't afford to pay more. He said it would upend the market. Which may have been more of the "If we raise minimum wage, burgers at McDonalds will be $10!!!!" (Which of course they end up being anyway because shareholders), essentially a similar argument to "I can't afford it" in that its implying the costs HAVE to be passed into the market rather than absorbed by the obscenely wealthy employer. But he didn't just flatly state that he couldn't' afford it. He tried to obscure it.

As for a compromise, this show is a soap opera for sure. But it's not a fairy tale. Making George a robber baron with a heart of gold would be too far I think even for Julian Fellowes.  Besides, making rich people a little terrible is how he convinces himself he is not simply a product of them.

Edited November 14, 2023 by RachelKM
Typos.. again, some more...

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

It was tone deaf and very not savy for his negotiation goals. But I don't believe George said he couldn't afford to pay more. He said it would upend the market. Which may have been more of the "If we raise minimum wage, burgers at McDonalds will be $10!!!!" (Which of course they end up being anyway because shareholders), essentially a similar argument to "I can't afford it" in that its implying the costs HAVE to be passed into the market rather than absorbed by the obscenely wealthy employer. But he didn't just flattly that he couldn't' afford it. He tried to obscure it.

As for a compromise, this show is a soap opera for sure. But it's not a fairy tale. Making George a robber baron with a heart of gold would be too far I think even for Julian Fellowes.  Besides, making rich people a little terrible is how he convinces himself he is not simply a product of them.

I don't think this is what Fellowes is going for, because he loves his rich folks, but it made me wonder if Turner and George were twins here. He's got everything he wants, but can't help but screw over his workers because nobody can win but him, and that's going to cause him more headaches. Just like Turner can't just take her own winnings and let Bertha exist. Just as the workers haven't done anything to him--they've helped him, in fact, just as Bertha was good to Turner here--they have to be assholes and start a war.

Not that Bertha isn't like this too, but she's not crushing people just to crush them--she's putting her opera thing above getting revenge on Turner in this ep.

[RachelKM]

39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think this is what Fellowes is going for, because he loves his rich folks

I agree that he loves rich folks but disagree about his intent. My impression from all of his works is that he THINKS he is being critical of the wealthy but he can't quite get all the way there.  I think he thinks he progressive and exposing the wealthy classes for their snobbery and excesses. But in the end, he either can't acknowledge or is genuinely ignorant of the full impact of his class on others. 

Consequently, he takes aim at the wealthy class in the obvious ways that don't require him to think too deeply.  Robber barons are an easy target.  And making them terrible, at least in that context, satisfies his egalitarian cosplay. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by RachelKM
Whoops, I needed to finish my thought... at least to the actual point.

[Tango64]

I said from the very beginning that instead of having a civil conversation with Turner that night George should have grabbed her by the arm, dragged her naked ass down the hall to Bertha's room and told her exactly what Turner did. If he had, he wouldn't be in this mess with Bertha now. (And her performance in that scene where she confronted him was wonderful.)

But of course that would have been one dramatic moment instead of the juicy plotline we're getting now.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Tango64
typo

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Yes, it would be nice if George were more progressive, but he's more of the mind, like Bertha, that money can buy you out of any problem. Rather than see that the flaunting of his wealth would do nothing to persuade the union leader, he felt assured that he could buy him off.

Money can buy him out of the problem, just not in the way that he wants... if that makes sense. The workers want raises and better working conditions, two problems that money can solve. It'll cost a little more than he's willing to spend.

He only wants to buy off one worker, rather than "buy off" all of his workers.

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Not that Bertha isn't like this too, but she's not crushing people just to crush them--she's putting her opera thing above getting revenge on Turner in this ep.

Bertha is giving me a "Clara Barton from Season 1" vibe, where she's exercising some practicality. She's like "I'll take everyone's money, please and thank you."

Edited November 14, 2023 by AntFTW

[Tango64]

So George's strategy was to bring the union rep fighting for the poor working man to his luxurious home, treat him to a lavish luncheon, show off all his ostentatious lifestyle... and confirm the guy's impression that George is just an out-of-touch asshole who doesn't care about anyone else as long as he can live like this?

Well done, George.

[ofmd]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Wha? Why should she do that? I don't even feel like Agnes is on her radar.

I thought they probably meant Bertha's daughter?