S01.E08: The Question

[paigow]

Airdate: Aug 29 /23

Raylan and Carolyn cross the line; Raylan attempts to make it out of Detroit alive.

[MrWhyt]

bye bye Clement. Of course they had to squeeze boyd in there. And Luis Guzman!

[AimingforYoko]

Nice place to leave it. Nice to catch up with everybody. Boyd's still working that grift, I see.

Raylan might've lost a step, but none of it in his gun hand. I kinda knew it would go like Ray Cruz's story.

Raylan's done some line-crossing, but I knew he couldn't sit with Toma's plan. Too bad Skendler couldn't either.

Like I said after the first two eps, this was not Justified. And that's OK.

[luna1122again]

Omg omg omg

Okay, now I want another season 

[whinewithwine]

2 minutes ago, luna1122again said:

Omg omg omg

Okay, now I want another season 

Almost exactly how I reacted.

 

[buttersister]

LOL, there you are, Raylan. And there you go. I’d be mighty happy if he gets bored on board, picks up a badge and heads to Mexico.

Howdy, Boyd. You don’t look sick. 👀😂😂

[thuganomics85]

Well, that's one way to set up a potential future installment!

Surprised that Raylan himself did kill Mansell after-all, but while I guess it was significant that he ended up being unarmed and was reaching for his tape instead, considering the fact that he broke in Carolyn's house and, well, everything else he did, it's hard for me to even fault Raylan in any way.  Glad he's off the streets at least.  Boyd Holbrook was his normal reliable self, but Mansell won't be going down as one of the best villains to face off against Raylan (but he still might be better than Darrell Crowe, at least...)

Despite everything, Carolyn ends up becoming the new judge after-all.

I'm guessing Maureen was taken down as well, but it did seem like a lot of the evidence was flimsy on the surface, so I wonder if they got anything to stick.

Didn't even bother checking in on Sandy.

Fun seeing some of the previous marshals again like Matt Craven's Dan Grant and David Koecher's Greg Sutter.

I know she wasn't everyone's favorite, but I liked seeing Winona again.  Natalie Zea is always excellent and despite the character's flaws, I really did feel like Winona was connected to Raylan in a way others weren't and understood him better than most.  She and Timothy Olyphant really were able to convey all of that in just once scene.

So, Raylan is retired now, but he might be drawn back in because guess whose back on the lamb?!  Boyd Crowder, ladies and gentlemen!  Always running that con, I see.  Borderline fan service, sure, but man is Walton Goggins perfection in this role.  Hell, why stop there?  At this point, I almost want them to go all in and have Raylan re-team with Tim and Rachel next season, while Boyd somehow reconnects with good old Wynn Duffy!

Overall, the season was kind of a disappointment after the initial two episodes and never lived up to the potential to expand upon Raylan and this universe.  That said, yes, I would totally be back for a potential "Raylan and Boyd star in their own version of The Fugitive" season if that ends up happening.  I just miss those boys!  They dug coal together!

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by thuganomics85

[BeckyThatcher]

Clement gets the message that absolutely no one wants to listen to his cassette tape.

[luna1122again]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

I know she wasn't everyone's favorite, but I liked seeing Winona again.  Natalie Zea is always excellent and despite the character's flaws, I really did feel like Winona was connected to Raylan in a way others weren't and understood him better than most.  She and Timothy Olyphant really were able to convey all of that in just once scene.

 

I love Winona/NZ and I actually teared up when she showed up. My husband and I both shouted Winona!! ,cuz we thought she wasn't on this season at all. And yeah, she and TO have such a bittersweet, palpable chemistry together. 

And then I was excited to see Raylan wearing a Jason Isbell t-shirt, so I was prepared to be happy with this finale. 

But THEN: Kentucky. An orange prison jumpsuit. I yelped. 

"You should see your face right now" my hubby said. Whether I was smiling like a fool, crying, or just mouth agape in actual surprise, or all 3, I'm not sure, but damn. They actually tricked us! Walton Goggins is a big liar and I love him for it. He slid back into the silver tongued cadences of Boyd Crowder as easily as that tight, buttoned up vest, and it was joyous. Good job, everybody. 

[chediavolo]

Well, the only good thing about the show was the last 10 minutes with Boyd! Now I hope there is a third season, and we get back to the real Justified. Every time they showed Raylan and Caroline it boggled my mind. There is no way he would be attracted to her physically or Emotionally. I’ve never in my life seen a couple with less charisma or chemistry. Bring on season three with Raylan and Boyd! 
oh yeah and they could’ve wrapped up a couple of things like what happened with Sandy and what happened with Maureen..

[tv-talk]

The last scene with Boyd instantly had me thinking why did they do this season in Detroit at all rather than a season starring Boyd and Raylan? I'd thought Goggins wasnt available but if he was...man they should have dumped the Elmore angle and just written a show about....Raylan going after Boyd in Mexico? Sure why not!

The rest of the ep....uh not that great. I didnt like that Givens was EVER in on the 'let Mansell starve' plan, I mean that was ridiculous. And Carolyn- sheesh how low would she go? Are we supposed to like her? I dont really know what to make of her.

And the bad cop...what happened there? Her name is in that book so she had to set some poor guy up to take the fall for Mansell? What did I miss?

Speaking of Mansell...so he didnt have any special protections or hidden benefactor as Raylan had suspected? He really was just dumb shit lucky stumbling around murdering people and getting away with it?

And what was Mansell's plan there, actually have beers with Raylan and listen to his music, become buddies? They played that scene as if not only was Mansell unarmed (or not going for his gun anyway), but he seemed to be genuinely shocked that Givens would have shot him. As if he had no intention of it ever coming to that and was "unjustifiably" killed. Weird, though no surprise it went down like that.

At any rate, I sure hope plans are in the works for another series with Boyd...but I have my doubts given how many years it took for this one to come out.

[Starchild]

3 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

And the bad cop...what happened there? Her name is in that book so she had to set some poor guy up to take the fall for Mansell? What did I miss?

The only reason I can come up with is that the book was missing, and if she closed the murder case people would stop looking for it. 

Then maybe she would continue to look herself, on the sly, or she would just go through the rest of her career hoping it never surfaced? Flimsy reasoning, anyway.

[edhopper]

Yeah, he was just reaching for the tape. (Who the F still uses cassette tapes?) But does anyone doubt he would have killed Raylan and Carolyn? He was crazy, but he didn't break in to leave a tape and say "Bye, good to know ya."

Like others, I felt it ended with a whimper more than a bang.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Ehh.  I guess Winona found her way back from LaBrea after all. 🤣

Does Boyd have money stashed somewhere?

[luna1122again]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

 

And the bad cop...what happened there? Her name is in that book so she had to set some poor guy up to take the fall for Mansell? What did I miss?

 

 

Her name is in the judge's book, and it appears she received payouts in exchange for helping to convict defendants, no matter their guilt or innocence. So: dirty cop. 

[katenm]

When the episode ended, my husband opened his wallet and handed me $20. Why? Early on, I bet him this series ended with Boyd breaking out of prison because how else could it end, really? 

Sometimes I get these things right, many more times I get these things wrong.

[Dowel Jones]

Interesting that Carolyn apparently has the county morgue on speed dial.

That dumb-as-a-rock-but-she's-in-love correctional officer is going to get a rude awakening when she learns just who and what Boyd Crowder is.  Mexico?  Ha!

[Raja]

8 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

Interesting that Carolyn apparently has the county morgue on speed dial.

Well she was a criminal defense lawyer. But then again how many murder cases turn up at a law firm, it can't be the twenty something a year that the TV cops handle.

Of course it could have been a lie and a quick 911 call without given the operator more details. Which an armed but in plain clothes Marshal should have been part of the call.

[aghst]

1 hour ago, edhopper said:

Yeah, he was just reaching for the tape. (Who the F still uses cassette tapes?) But does anyone doubt he would have killed Raylan and Carolyn? He was crazy, but he didn't break in to leave a tape and say "Bye, good to know ya."

Like others, I felt it ended with a whimper more than a bang.

Yeah I don't know where you would even buy a cassette player.  Maybe eBay?

Or where Mansell would have gotten a tape recorded.

He should have been pulling out his phone, asking Raylan for the Wifi password so he could play it on Carolyn's Sonos.

I guess the shooting is ... "justified" because he was reaching into his pocket after breaking into the house?  But does Michigan let people shoot any intruders who break into homes violently?

Then again, it wasn't Raylan's home so does the castle doctrine apply?

Yeah what were the Albanians going to do, let Mansell starve to death in that room?  They throw away the murder weapon and then gives a guy who has to us crutches to go after Mansell in the dark.

Sure because they had to let Raylan do it.

Didn't Boyd play white nationalist?  So he had a following among the brothers?  You would think he'd have to stick with the Aryan Nation gang for safety.  Instead he's charismatic, everyone loves him, including the young buxom female guard.

Only two guards transporting an inmate out of a maximum security prison?  And one of them is a woman so they should have known better, Boyd would use his powers of persuasion on her.🙄

I thought maybe the van was going to be trapped on that narrow bridge coming up.  Somehow Boyd had henchmen outside of prison and he was going to mastermind some big action film sequence hijack and shootout, though they probably wouldn't have cast Guzman if anyone was going to be killed.

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, aghst said:

He should have been pulling out his phone, asking Raylan for the Wifi password so he could play it on Carolyn's Sonos.

I guess the shooting is ... "justified" because he was reaching into his pocket after breaking into the house?  But does Michigan let people shoot any intruders who break into homes violently?

Then again, it wasn't Raylan's home so does the castle doctrine apply?

Yeah what were the Albanians going to do, let Mansell starve to death in that room?  They throw away the murder weapon and then gives a guy who has to us crutches to go after Mansell in the dark.

Sure because they had to let Raylan do it.

Didn't Boyd play white nationalist?  So he had a following among the brothers?  You would think he'd have to stick with the Aryan Nation gang for safety.  Instead he's charismatic, everyone loves him, including the young buxom female guard.

In this case a Deputy US Marshal on loan to Detroit was going after a murder suspect who broke into his attorney's home. The I thought he was pulling a gun which is often played as a lie but was true in this case being the justification.

 

It did seem like that the solitary starve to death penalty in the panic room  was what the Albanians planned and Raylon and Carolyn were fine with the extrajudicial punishment. The underling who was allowing the bosse's son his honor would have probably have received a slap on the wrist had the honor killing worked.

 

As for Boyd they made a point to show he bore the scars of the swastika removal. And he really wasn't involved in that life beyond the first season of Justified if memory serves. With his father killing off an earlier multiracial flock.

[tennisgurl]

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in. Oh Boyd, that silver tongued devil has still got it, I admit that I squeed quite a bit when we saw "Kentucky" show up on my screen. If this is our last time with Boyd its certainly one hell of a goodbye, and if its a teaser for another season, I guess I'm in damn it. Plus, Luis Guzman cameo!

The ending of the season itself was fine, it went about the way I expected, including everyone being so damn dark I spent half the time begging someone to turn on even a tiny light on their phone. After so much promise in the first few episodes this show turned out to be a real disappointment. Not garbage or anything, but very bland and forgettable, very much feeling like a totally different story that had Raylan thrown in at the last minute so they could stick Justified on the title. The ending just made me sad imagining the show we could have gotten, an actual continuation of the story. 

I'm really glad that we got to see Winonna one more time, its really too bad that it never worked out between them, they always had great chemistry. Between seeing her and then Boyd, its like the show decided to be Justified for a minute or two just in time for the ending. 

[pasdetrois]

5 hours ago, luna1122again said:

I was excited to see Raylan wearing a Jason Isbell t-shirt

His "Alabama Pines" is one of the loneliest country songs ever.

I'm wildly excited to see a reunion of Boyd and Raylan next season. I'm pretty sure Raylan won't choose to retire and go fishin'.

Edited August 30, 2023 by pasdetrois

[paigow]

Weird Lethal Weapon buddy show... Ramirez & Raylan hunting Boyd... But both of them are Murtaugh...

Edited August 31, 2023 by paigow

[aghst]

BTW, after they turn the tables on Ramirez, Boyd and the woman guard are by her Mustang convertible.

Boyd gestures to her that she should wipe the corner of her mouth.

Then she buttons up her top, which shows a lot of cleavage.

Implication is clear.

What a gentleman, he didn't want her to look unpresentable.

[Pike Ludwell]

.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[tv-talk]

4 minutes ago, Pike Ludwell said:

Probably the chief there, and I wonder what person. Probably Rachel now. T

Oh Rachel is no doubt chief by now, if they go back. 

 

44 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

I'm wildly excited to see a reunion of Boyd and Raylan next season.

Was there any talk of more than this one season? I thought this was supposed to be a self-contained story and no one had plans of the show actually returning?

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

I guess the shooting is ... "justified" because he was reaching into his pocket after breaking into the house?  But does Michigan let people shoot any intruders who break into homes violently

known violent criminal, breaks into a house, and reaches for something in a darkened room. Yeah that's a clean shooting.

 

6 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Every time they showed Raylan and Caroline it boggled my mind. There is no way he would be attracted to her physically

why? she's good looking lady.

[Raja]

Wasn't Rachel made Chief Deputy when the first series ended?

[Pike Ludwell]

.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[aghst]

Could Raylan even go into Mexico to try to apprehend?

Or more likely Mexican LEO arrests Boyd and then Raylan goes there to bring him back?

Or Boyd gets bored of Mexico, maybe cartels too much for him to deal with and he comes back to US, though coming back to Kentucky would be stretch since he'd be arrested right away.

[Pike Ludwell]

.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[Crashcourse]

I wish they had shown what happened to Sandy.  I'm sure the Albanians would like to have a nice chat with her. 😱

Thanks, writers, for the last 15 minutes of the show.  Walton Goggins and Luis Guzman saved the whole series for me.  

[aghst]

Was Guzman on Justified before or they just cast him as a random guard, to do a line reading when the other guard pulled the rifle on him?

[Crashcourse]

I don't remember him being on Justified.  I think the writers just wanted us to say "Oh, Luis Guzman!"

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Yeah what were the Albanians going to do, let Mansell starve to death in that room?  They throw away the murder weapon and then gives a guy who has to us crutches to go after Mansell in the dark.

Yes, the Albanians were going to let Mansell starve to death. That area was set up to look like that's where Mansell was hiding out. Once his body started to stink, someone would find him. I'm not sure how the broken electrical box in the "safe room" would be explained away. Also, kind of nice connection to Mansell assaulting Skender in a safe room and then getting locked in basically another safe room. 

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The ending of the season itself was fine, it went about the way I expected, including everyone being so damn dark I spent half the time begging someone to turn on even a tiny light on their phone.

I have to say that I was glad of the darkness when Mansell was smashing in Skender's face. I did not want to see that.

 

[tearsandhysteria]

As much as I love me some Chicken Fat, I was disappointed by pretty much the entire show. The only two characters I had any interest in were Raylan and the lady that got her teeth ripped out. Raylan should have dated her instead of Carolyn. But she wouldn't have been enough of a damsel in distress for him. She seems like her only problem was knowing Sandie. 

I was ecstatic to see Boyd. I hollered at his arrival. LOL I was so happy to see Boyd that I handled Willa being back baby-talking without wanting to break my TV. 

This show just didn't have any of the spark the original did. On OG Justified, I  cared about all of the characters.  Even if didn't like them, I wanted to see where their story went. (Well, except Ellen-Mae. The actress played her well but I just didn't get anything out of her.) It must have been the script because I love the guy that played Mansell in Logan. I don't think the actors had much to work with. And then TO's daughter being cast with zero acting skills didn't help either. If they send him back to Harlan, I'll be here for the duration. But another season of a wile coyote type bad guy and Willa, is gonna be a nah for me. 

 

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, Pike Ludwell said:

Boyd could have been lying to the woman and has no intent of going to Mexico.

Not to mention that, as soon as the prison van is reported overdue and they interview Luis Guzman, her Mustang will be all over the police bulletins.  She won't be easily hidden and Boyd will walk/run away from her in a moment.

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

Smart end scene. It could very easily serve as an excellent end of the series. Or a prelude to a season 2. 

Raylan would be very conflicted now between his daughter and going after Boyd. He doesn't want to mess it up with Willa, like Wynona said. But Willa on the boat was acting concerned about him being bored. So maybe they could talk it out and she'd understand him re-joining the Marshalls.

The caller ID just said it was from the Lexington offices. Probably the chief there, and I wonder what person. Probably Rachel now. Tim was a great guy and I hope he returns, but a little off the handle for chief.

With the other guy's daughter becoming a Marshall, I hope they're not looking at bringing Willa in as a new Marshall as well. It felt like they were preparing the audience for something like that, and TO gets to keep his daughter not only involved, but in the thick of the action. That would be yuck.

[seacliffsal]

Well, well, well-the entire season was worth it for me to get to the end scenes.  Those were everything  wanted.  It did not make me happy that Caroline became a judge, I knew Mansell would end up dead and I'm glad Raylan finally got to end this bizarre story by killing him.  Maureen?  Well, I'm glad the guy she framed won't be going to jail but I wasn't invested enough in her to care.  Raylan retiring and just the thought that he would have to listen to Willa's baby voice everyday just seemed like he was going to be tortured for the rest of his days.  And then...Kentucky came to the rescue.  I won't even mind having had to watch this entire series for that payout!  I really hope those scenes meant that we might be getting real Justified back after enduring faux Justified for these many weeks.

[Crashcourse]

4 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

I really hope those scenes meant that we might be getting real Justified back after enduring faux Justified for these many weeks.

Exactly!  

I think even Timothy Oliphant knew this series wasn't nearly as good as OG Justified.  Hopefully, he comes back to a much better Justified series.  

18 minutes ago, Starchild said:

With the other guy's daughter becoming a Marshall, I hope they're not looking at bringing Willa in as a new Marshall as well. It felt like they were preparing the audience for something like that, and TO gets to keep his daughter not only involved, but in the thick of the action. That would be yuck.

I think/hope he realizes she's too stupid innocent to be a marshal.

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Also, kind of nice connection to Mansell assaulting Skender in a safe room and then getting locked in basically another safe room. 

it was the same room

[Artsda]

Winnona!  So excited to see her! I had no idea she was going to make a cameo they still have such great chemistry together.

Then  on top of it Boyd in a jumpsuit, preaching and escaping! 

 

Now I want a whole other season. I want to see Winona and Raylan try again. I want to see Kentucky and Boyd! 

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

After all he wouldn't like it -- there's a lot of Mexicans!

Oh I dont know...after the initial episodes where Boyd was a neo-nazi racist, I think they went away from that and for me he just knows how to preach to people and white nationalist types were just useful. He'd be happy as a lark to somehow be making money in Mexico, drinking margaritas, and being around Mexicans.

 

2 hours ago, tearsandhysteria said:

It must have been the script because I love the guy that played Mansell in Logan

You absolutely MUST watch The Sandman. He is Goggins level good in that one as literally what nightmares are made of.

[Pike Ludwell]

12 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Oh I dont know...after the initial episodes where Boyd was a neo-nazi racist, I think they went away from that and for me he just knows how to preach to people and white nationalist types were just useful. He'd be happy as a lark to somehow be making money in Mexico, drinking margaritas, and being around Mexicans.

Doubtful. His racial views were genuine and I see no evidence he's changed them. Raylan knows the guy better than you and me and he made the observation. Could still go to a resort town in Mexico, where he'd have less contact.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[Raja]

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

Maureen?  Well, I'm glad the guy she framed won't be going to jail but I wasn't invested enough in her to care

I think that is a casualty of taking the story away from a co-worker Detective Cruz and transferring it to Deputy Givens up from Miami

[tv-talk]

His cellmate just now was black and he gave him his Bible as if he wanted him to carry the torch. Why would he do that if he was a white nationalist? And after the initial Church bombing in Justified, where he cold blooded murdered a white accomplice BEFORE he knew the guy was an informant (and he wasnt)....where did Boyd show that he was truly a neo-nazi as opposed to an opportunist? 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Starchild said:

With the other guy's daughter becoming a Marshall, I hope they're not looking at bringing Willa in as a new Marshall as well. It felt like they were preparing the audience for something like that, and TO gets to keep his daughter not only involved, but in the thick of the action. That would be yuck.

I think it was just a fake out since it was shot to look like Raylan's retirement, not the Chief's before the reveal.

[Pike Ludwell]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

His cellmate just now was black and he gave him his Bible as if he wanted him to carry the torch. Why would he do that if he was a white nationalist? And after the initial Church bombing in Justified, where he cold blooded murdered a white accomplice BEFORE he knew the guy was an informant (and he wasnt)....where did Boyd show that he was truly a neo-nazi as opposed to an opportunist? 

Why did Raylan, who knew him well, think he wouldn't like being around a lot of Mexicans?? Are Raylan's powers of observation just way off? And you don't have to be neo-nazi to not like being around other groups. It's not good, and I abhor it, but it's not necessarily neo-nazi. 

Why wasn't treating his cell mate well for all that time not opportunistic, adaptive behavior. And his becoming religious again, for that matter. I doubt he's truly religious again. It was all opportunistic, adaptive behavior.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[paigow]

Walton Goggins signed to play Boyd only AFTER the pilot script was modified such that Raylan explicitly doubted Boyd was a genuine Neo Nazi.

[Pike Ludwell]

I doubt he's a white nationalist or neo-nazi. That's not the point. Raylan who knew him for years doubted he'd like being around a lot of Mexicans. Someone can not like being around Mexicans or others without being a neo nazi. It's wrong-thinking, but not necessarily neo nazi.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Pike Ludwell