S07.E08: Turning Points

[Athena]

  Mid-season finale.

Quote

Jamie fights in the pivotal Second Battle of Saratoga. Roger and Brianna search for Jemmy.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[ferjy]

Guess what, guys? I think I can travel through the stones… I heard the buzzing clear as a bell. Scotland of yore, here I come! 

A few good moments in the episode. Seeing the stones and travellers go through never gets old. Jamie talking to William, then William later acknowledging that Jamie is an upstanding person. Ian smooching Rachel (even if he did get a slap for it.) Rollo getting a scrumptious treat of goose fat, to Claire’s chagrin. And the look on Claire’s face when she realized she was shaking Benedict Arnold’s hand. But the war scenes were a snoozefest for me. Thank goodness that’s done with. The last minute was the best part. When Jamie said “We got our wish, we’re going to Scotland,” he was speaking for most of us here. Finally! I’m so looking forward to the second half of the season. 

 

[ch1]

For all the build up to the revolution it really has been the most boring part of the show.  I just wanted them to get past it.

[sadie]

I’m so ready for the story to move on. I’ve been bored to tears.

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't know how much I needed Claire waving around a sword. All the yelling aside, Claire does have a point. Jamie fighting isn't changing anything. I don't think Jamie would just up and leave, but who's going to stop them? After the scene with the lashing scars, it's clear why Jamie would still be invested in the revolution. I thought Jamie was going to shoot the cousin. Whoops. 

I'm glad they showed Arnold being pissy though. Not as good as in Washington's Spies. 

Well, looks like we were right about the gold. Also about the idiocy of leaving the letters out. 

We're going to have to have to start calling Young Ian, Young Mack Ian! Rachel was in super swoon mode when he left. Then he wrecked it in the battle!

William has Jamie's hat. I still think he's going to turn. It would nicely bookend Arnold. 

All's well that end's well, with the trip to Scotland. Will we see Jenny next year then? Can you not bring a dog on a ship? 

I'm surprised we didn't get much B plot. 

 

[Lola82]

I loved the episode, I’m glad it didn’t end on a cliffhanger. And the less Bree/Roger scenes there are, the better. This storyline is too hard to buy into. Some rando reads their diary and decides he’s going to kidnap a child and go to the past and then travel to another country on the hope that the child remembers a random cave he’s been to many years ago. All for some possible gold? And he know for fact that he can travel back with it? It’s too wacky even for this time traveling show.

Jamie cracking jokes while he’s injured and Claire cursing him out is my favorite interaction between them always. 

Ian in battle mode is also always welcome.

[steph369]

14 hours ago, ferjy said:

Finally! I’m so looking forward to the second half of the season. 

Me too. And fck Starz for making us wait until next year. 

[goldilocks]

14 hours ago, ferjy said:

Guess what, guys? I think I can travel through the stones… I heard the buzzing clear as a bell. Scotland of yore, here I come! 

🤣 Guess we’re all coming with you then. 

 

[jmnf19]

15 hours ago, ferjy said:

When Jamie said “We got our wish, we’re going to Scotland,” he was speaking for most of us here.

I think I heard a collective cheer. They’d better actually get to Scotland. If their ship is attacked by pirates and they end up in Timbuktu, I’ll be seething. 

[DoctorAtomic]

14 minutes ago, Lola82 said:

Ian in battle mode is also always welcome.

So is P.I.M.P. mode. 

21 minutes ago, Lola82 said:

This storyline is too hard to buy into. Some rando reads their diary and decides he’s going to kidnap a child and go to the past and then travel to another country on the hope that the child remembers a random cave he’s been to many years ago. All for some possible gold? And he know for fact that he can travel back with it?

Crucial point. First of all, he was able to go through the stones, presumably. He had to have known about them or heard some legend because he would have needed two gems. We know that you can go through with what you're wearing. Roger, Bree, and young Jem also had a rope tied around them, but they ended up in the same place. So we don't know if you could, for example, take an apple back/forward with you. 

Did we need this plot though? I know it's in the books, but you couldn't write something instead around Buck? 

But we heard Roger; they're going to have to get a boat America from Inverness during the Revolutionary War. It's got to be close to Yorktown. Total chaos. So they're going to land where? Then get to the cave and another boat back. 

I first remember this whole 'midseason finale' nonsense with Mad Men. I don't know what the marketing goal is in stretching it out over such a long time. I'm going to forget by the time the show rolls around. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I first remember this whole 'midseason finale' nonsense with Mad Men. I don't know what the marketing goal is in stretching it out over such a long time. I'm going to forget by the time the show rolls around. 

Outlander did this with its first season. That season also had 16 episodes.

[ch1]

I listened to the Outlander podcast after the 2nd episode and they were still doing post production work which surprised me. I have no idea if a half year hiatus is really necessary though. 

 

[steph369]

37 minutes ago, jmnf19 said:

I think I heard a collective cheer. They’d better actually get to Scotland. If their ship is attacked by pirates and they end up in Timbuktu, I’ll be seething. 

Oh, groan. Yeah, this. I didn’t even consider that we might not even get to see Scotland. 😫 Or if their ship sinks and they’re separated AGAIN. How many bets Claire gets kidnapped again. 

[jenn31]

1 minute ago, steph369 said:

How many bets Claire gets kidnapped again. 

Snort. You know it’s coming. 

[steph369]

21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Outlander did this with its first season. That season also had 16 episodes.

And we hated it then too. 

[jenn31]

1 hour ago, Lola82 said:

This storyline is too hard to buy into. Some rando reads their diary and decides he’s going to kidnap a child and go to the past and then travel to another country on the hope that the child remembers a random cave he’s been to many years ago. All for some possible gold? And he know for fact that he can travel back with it? It’s too wacky even for this time traveling show.

 

55 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Did we need this plot though?  You couldn't write something instead around Buck? 

 

Crazy plot. Not the best writing. The writers have changed things up before. Of all things to alter, this should have been it.

What I can’t fathom is why Rob didn’t just take Jemmy to the gold in present day? Did I miss something? Even if he didn’t know if it was still there, you’d still try there first. Certainly a shorter and safer trip than traveling to another era!

Edited August 11, 2023 by jenn31

[Lola82]

42 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

But we heard Roger; they're going to have to get a boat America from Inverness during the Revolutionary War. It's got to be close to Yorktown. Total chaos. So they're going to land where? Then get to the cave and another boat back. 

Omg I didn’t even think of this point! This dodo is willingly heading head first into a war!

[DoctorAtomic]

I think we said in the last episode that he didn't go to America present day because there was some line about money trouble due to alimony. Which begs the question as to how you're paying the boat fare in 1781. 

Second, Jem isn't dumb. He's lived in the past 99% of his life and he speaks the language. He could literally just tell another adult that he's being kidnapped. He probably learned that their house has their relatives there in 1781. Isn't Jenny there? 

Technically, with Jamie and Claire coming into Scotland in 1777-8 (I don't know how long the trip was) they may actually still be there in 1781.

Assuming Rob hasn't traveled before, Jem should be able to give him the slip if he doesn't get too scared. 

I bet they don't even get to Inverness let alone get on the boat. 

[iMonrey]

Sometimes the "previouslies" give away too much of the upcoming plot. As soon as they reminded us about Arch Bug threatening to take away someone Ian loves then cut to a scene of him and Rachel, well, it wasn't too hard to figure out where this was going. Frankly all I care about is Rollo. 

I agree with those who found the war scenes utterly boring all season long. I hope this means we're done with them. 

They sure yada-yada'd the whole boat trip to Scotland. Not that I needed multiple episodes on a boat but one minute they're in America and the next thing you know someone is shouting "Land Ho" up on deck. For a show that stretched out the Revolutionary War story to an excruciating extent it gave me whiplash jumping into the next story.

I assume Jamie and Claire will run into Roger and Buck once they get to Scotland. I know Roger and Buck left the 20th century circa 1980 but the way this show plays fast and loose with time travel "rules" I see no reason why they shouldn't land in 1777. Claire's the one who said it was always "more or less" 200 years either way, according to Roger's notes.

Starz: Cancelled until next. year.

[DoctorAtomic]

They'll probably just time jump the next episode to 1780. 

[HerkyJerky]

8 hours ago, steph369 said:

And fck Starz for making us wait until next year. 

AGREED! The least Starz could do would be to play reruns of "The Time Tunnel" in it's place (if anybody else is old enough to remember that TV show from the '60s...)

[LindaInLaughlin]

The fast forward button has definitely been pushed!  So much has been left out that it is barely making sense.  Now, we'll have to wait for at least 6-8 months for post production on Part 2 to resume, and a year and a half for season 8, if all goes well, but I have lost my enthusiasm for the show due to Starz/Sony not caring if it's finished right.

[Glade]

I thought last episode was the midseason finale, which would have made more sense given it's cliffhangers while this episode just dragged along until we finally saw Scotland again.  I think the Abernathy plot is ridiculous, I don't buy that he just randomly runs across Ian's dog in the woods and knows who it is, and I find the idea that he has the time/energy/ability to stalk Ian equally implausible.

Maybe Roger/Buck should have split up?  Buck runs to Inverness to see if they're still awaiting passage, while Roger flies to North Carolina before going back in time and like, waiting in the general region of the caves?  I guess communication would be extremely difficult if not impossible between the two afterwards, but still... Maybe it will make sense next year if Roger is supposed to run into J/C/I in Scotland or something. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 hours ago, steph369 said:

And we hated it then too. 

Oh so did I! Was just mentioning it because it’s not the first time this show did it. I think someone up thread mentioned another show that did this, not remembering that this show has done it too. And this show was a good distraction from the chemo during the first season so I was really upset at the hiatus.

[BitterApple]

I liked the episode, despite the list of gripes I'm about to post.

I co-sign everyone's opinion that the War was a big letdown. Unlike Culloden, it didn't feel like there were any stakes. Claire and Jamie know no matter what they do or don't do, the outcome doesn't change, so they weren't invested as much emotionally as they were during S1 and S2. It was also pretty obvious the show didn't have the budget for fancy battle scenes. 

 I'm also not understanding why Ian had to leave Rollo behind. Dogs traveled on ships all the time. There were several who came over on the Mayflower. I guess it's plot device for Ian seeking out Rachel again, speaking of which, how much do we want to bet she runs into William and they start liking each other? The writers have been setting up an obvious love triangle from the start. 

The Rob/Jemmy plot makes zero sense. It's almost comically bad. Granted, we don't yet know the level of Rob's understanding about time travel, history and the rigors of daily life in the 1700s, but it would be far less dangerous to seek the gold in present day. 

If Arch Bug is gonna revenge kill anyone, I offer up Rachel as tribute. I can't handle any movies or tv shows where the dog dies. 

[Scarlett45]

On 8/11/2023 at 1:53 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Can you not bring a dog on a ship? 

You can bring a dog on a ship. They had cats to control the mice population. Ian I think left Rollo because he wants to be with Rachel and this was his way of showing her he was serious about her. 

 

On 8/12/2023 at 7:39 PM, BitterApple said:

If Arch Bug is gonna revenge kill anyone, I offer up Rachel as tribute. I can't handle any movies or tv shows where the dog dies. 

Arch isn’t going to kill Rollo. He said “when you have something worth taking, you’ll see me again.” The dog isn’t a big enough “prize” for him. I told my Mom, “Rachel could take him (Arch) though!”

On 8/12/2023 at 7:39 PM, BitterApple said:

I'm also not understanding why Ian had to leave Rollo behind. Dogs traveled on ships all the time. There were several who came over on the Mayflower. I guess it's plot device for Ian seeking out Rachel again, speaking of which, how much do we want to bet she runs into William and they start liking each other? The writers have been setting up an obvious love triangle from the start. 

Yes we agree. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm hard pressed how Young Ian will end up leaving Scotland on his own to go back to America for a while though. 

She said she was going to be at Valley Forge, which doesn't bode well. Also it would mean he'd have to turn right around.

[Haleth]

On 8/11/2023 at 4:30 PM, steph369 said:

Me too. And fck Starz for making us wait until next year. 

And this is when I cancel Starz until next year. 

[tennisgurl]

I'm so relieved that we are finally in Scotland again! Not even a cliffhanger in sight, I was so sure that the ship would start to see or be attacked by a sea monster or something, anything to drag out Jamie and Claire from getting back to Scotland. I have enjoyed a lot of their journey's to other lands but the show is always at its most special back in Scotland. Especially because the shows take on the Revolution has turned out to be pretty lackluster. It had a lot of good build up but the actual conflict itself just doesn't feel as big as it should be, I really just cannot make myself care. Jamie really spoke for all of us when he told Claire that their dream was coming true.

I always love watching people go through the stones, although with it apparently being so easy it makes me wonder why they don't go back and fourth for visits more often. I wish that Jamie could go through, Jamie getting to experience the 80s seems like it would be hilarious. I know that desperate people do desperate things, especially for money, but the whole plan to kidnap Jemmy to go to the past in another country to get him to show you a random cave that he last saw years ago to find some gold that may or may not still be there all based on the notes he saw in an acquaintances desk. 

I loved Claire's face when she realized that she had just met Benedict Arnold, almost as much as I loved her pulling a sword on those people trying to loot corpses. I always appreciate when she's just over all of the bullshit. 

Poor Rachel now that she's caught the eye of a member of the extended Frasier clan she's doomed to trauma. At least she has one very good boy with her!

See you in about a year, Scotland!

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, they're still on the boat. We only saw Scotland not anyone on dry land. 

If the gold was still in Scotland, I can see going back. Being in America strains credulity. 

[sagittarius sue]

31 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

She said she was going to be at Valley Forge, which doesn't bode well. Also it would mean he'd have to turn right around.

That line had me rolling my eyes.  Amazingly clairvoyant of Rachel that the Continental Army would winter at Valley Forge almost two months later!  She wouldn't even know the name of this small place.  The army would only stay there from 12/77 to 6/78, and although there would be a desperate need for doctors and medical treatment in the early months, not much need in the spring months except for treating the officers for STDs.

I confess that I'm a major Revolutionary War nerd, and I'm very disappointed with the lackluster coverage after all the war buildup.  I was puzzled that Jamie was ordered from North Carolina to Vermont when there was the need for soldiers for the fighting in Pennsylvania.  However, they had to find a way to get him back to Scotland.

After the defeat at Saratoga, commander Gen. Burgoyne and all his officers were bound by the treaty to return to England and never fight Americans again.  The enlisted men became POWs in response to the horrendous treatment of American prisoners in prison hulks.  Therefore, William should be returning to England, and not romancing Rachel.  Of course, anything in possible in the Outlander universe.  I've thought of some historical possibilities that I might resurrect in the speculations topic.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Did Jamie need to go to New York to get back to Scotland though? I get what we saw, yes, because of the cousin. 

However, they could have written a plot with the same outcome with them remaining in the south. 

Other than running into William, it's not like the northern battles really brought anything new. He could have easily still been in the south too. 

[sagittarius sue]

I don't think there was much civilian travel (excluding merchant ships transporting supplies) between America and Great Britain during the war.  At this time the British held New York and Philadelphia with a strong blockade, while the American Navy was tiny but had some success with privateering on merchant ships including off the British coast.  The Navy transported  American diplomats abroad and could be attacked as demonstrated on the John Adams miniseries.  Departing from Wilmington NC during the war would be very hazardous.

[DoctorAtomic]

Jamie, Young Ian, and Claire are on a British ship to go to Scotland. They had a line explaining the blockades. I was suggesting something similar could have happened in the south region without the need for Jamie to be in the northern battles due to the general consensus here that not much really came from them being up there. The British were still occupying Wilmington right around that time, so you can get to the same endpoint of them on a British ship.

I'm in general agreement that I just didn't find them going to Sarasota to be all that compelling. For me, that point of view of the Revolution is common, so we're not really mining any new drama. afaik William is a fictional character and not an historical figure; he can be anywhere. Sure, Simon Fraser gives you an easy writing-out. However, you could come up with some clever writing that gets them all out of there. Maybe William has a change of heart due to the integrity of Young Ian, but can't work up the nerve to fight against his friends so uses his title to secure them all passage back home under the auspices of make something up because it doesn't matter. The ending was to get them to Scotland. 

[Hanahope]

Yeah totally expecting a meet up of the two groups in Scotland and they hunt for the gold together.  they need money to buy new gems for sure. 
there needs to be some background on Cameron to explain how he knew he could travel.  
they got Arnold right, fairly charismatic and but for his injuries and feud with Gates, things would have been different.  At least Claire didn’t know the details like most Americans.  
and of course bug will figure Ian would not leave rollo with someone he didn’t care for a lot.  I hope Rachel will be ok.

are the quakers that insular?  
 

[Shermie]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:27 PM, iMonrey said:

They sure yada-yada'd the whole boat trip to Scotland. Not that I needed multiple episodes on a boat but one minute they're in America and the next thing you know someone is shouting "Land Ho" up on deck. For a show that stretched out the Revolutionary War story to an excruciating extent it gave me whiplash jumping into the next story.

This. When Jamie was seasick, I assumed the journey had just started but nope, land ho! Oooo-kay writers.

On 8/14/2023 at 12:31 PM, tennisgurl said:

I'm so relieved that we are finally in Scotland again! Not even a cliffhanger in sight, I was so sure that the ship would start to see or be attacked by a sea monster or something, anything to drag out Jamie and Claire from getting back to Scotland.

Well, they’re not off the boat yet.

[zoey1996]

Unlike some, I liked the Ticonderoga/Saratoga focus. I grew up in the Midwest, and spent 20+ years in Williamsburg VA, so I knew less about the New York area of the Revolution and found that very interesting.

 

[HappyHanna]

On 8/12/2023 at 6:39 PM, BitterApple said:

I'm also not understanding why Ian had to leave Rollo behind. Dogs traveled on ships all the time. There were several who came over on the Mayflower. I guess it's plot device for Ian seeking out Rachel again, speaking of which, how much do we want to bet she runs into William and they start liking each other? The writers have been setting up an obvious love triangle from the start

Probably unpopular opinion, but I really don't like Ian. The actor looks like he's 12 and the character acts about the same age.  "Don't touch me or I'll take you"  said by a baby face, it's not sexy, it's creepy or laughable at best.  He and Rachel are in love? Why? And then like a tween he's been to missing his dog.  Rachel run away.

And yes,  i get it, Quakers are different.  But throwing thee until every sentence (and I'm not sure always grammatically correctly) doesn't make up for Rachel's very modern eyebrows. 

[ferjy]

On 8/19/2023 at 12:13 AM, HappyHanna said:

Probably unpopular opinion, but I really don't like Ian. The actor looks like he's 12 and the character acts about the same age.  "Don't touch me or I'll take you"  said by a baby face, it's not sexy, it's creepy or laughable at best.  He and Rachel are in love? Why? And then like a tween he's been to missing his dog.  Rachel run away.

But that’s why we love Young Ian (stress the “young”). He’s such a cutie and adorable (love his cute smile), rather than sexy. He was more so in the earlier seasons, but he’ll always have that boyishness to him. 

As for the quick falling in love, they’re speeding up everything to a ridiculous degree because they’re trying to get through too much of the story now that they’ve decided to end the show. The trip to Scotland was the most jarring. “Claire, we’re off to Scotland!” Take a breath… “Land ho!” 

 

[steph369]

On 8/14/2023 at 12:04 PM, Haleth said:

And this is when I cancel Starz until next year. 

Unfortunately I got a 6-month special offer figuring it would last the whole season of Outlander. Now the next 3 months will run out and I’ll have to get another subscription whenever the show decides to come back. Grrr.

[jmnf19]

10 minutes ago, steph369 said:

Unfortunately I got a 6-month special offer figuring it would last the whole season of Outlander. Now the next 3 months will run out and I’ll have to get another subscription whenever the show decides to come back. Grrr.

I feel for you. I’m in Canada and a couple of seasons ago I got a Starz subscription only to find out it’s not shown on Starz Canada. It’s shown on W, days later, with loads of commercials to boot. 🙄

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, ferjy said:

The trip to Scotland was the most jarring. “Claire, we’re off to Scotland!” Take a breath… “Land ho!” 

That's probably why Jamie got seasick. Fast trip. 

[Chai]

Omg! What about Jemmy! Now I have to wait almost a year to see what happens next.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Chai