S02.E05: Charades

[paigow]

AIRING JUL 13, 2023

A shuttle accident leads to Spock's Vulcan DNA getting removed by aliens, making him fully human and unprepared to face T'Pring's family during an important ceremonial dinner.

[AnimeMania]

Gia Sandhu as T'Pring  
Ellora Patniak as T’Pril 
Michael Benyaer as Sevet
Mia Kirshner as Amanda Grayson

[baldryanr]

I have no doubt a subset of fans are going to blow a gasket over this episode.   Trek has a mixed bag with comedy episodes, but this one was pretty funny unless you're big on continuity and/or sick of Vulcans being portrayed as assholes.

I suppose Spock is on a break right now.  It's pretty clear they're keeping the broad strokes from TOS but are otherwise feeling free to color outside the lines when they want to (temporal wars changing things and all that).

[tv-talk]

22 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

I suppose Spock is on a break right now.  It's pretty clear they're keeping the broad strokes from TOS but are otherwise feeling free to color outside the lines when they want

Yeah I cringed when I read the preview...going in with an open mind tho!

[NeenerNeener]

I really wish they would stop pushing the Spock/Chapel 'ship. I'm just going to stop thinking of this as a prequel to TOS and just assume it's an AU, as I do the JJ Abrams movies.

Edited July 13, 2023 by NeenerNeener

[rtms77]

I forget as to why Spock and Sarek are estranged, is it because of what happened in Discovery? It’s a shame because his perspective in this dinner ritual would have been nice. We still don’t know why Amanda would go through all this to marry him. It’s 200 yrs since Vulcans first met humans and they still treat humans this way? Yet they are more prevalent in Starfleet than ever. TPring father seemed fine, but the mom…wow. 
 

Sigh sorry but the whole Chapel/Spock stuff has gone off the rails. How do you break off a relationship like that and still work with each other. Spock treated her on TOS like he barely knew her.  Heck the crew ,save La’an ,know there is something between them.

They must be saving Peilia and Amanda meeting for something big , though she could have helped given her own hiding on earth so long.

This does give reference to the fact Spock is popular with the female side of the crew, a trait which transfers to Kirks crew later. 

[DrScottie]

4 hours ago, baldryanr said:

I suppose Spock is on a break right now.

I am hearing David Schwimmer's voice coming out of Spock saying "We were on a break!" 

2 hours ago, rtms77 said:

TPring's father seemed fine, but the mom…wow. 

She keeps her husband's testicles in a meditation lamp. I feel bad for Stonn. 

Yellow and Blue sounded like that robovoice that tells you your prescription is ready to be picked up. Press 1 for more options. With a yellow and a blue, I was expecting a green one also. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by DrScottie

[Chicago Redshirt]

I enjoyed it for what it was, but it takes a lot to get over the premise. Spock experienced a life-altering event. It is pretty dickish to pretend that he was still Vulcan when he knew that would be a dealbreaker for T'Pril and quite possibly T'Pring. Maybe it's human of me but being willing to deceive both of them -- no marriage could be worth that.

There really is no lining up Spock and Chapel kissing and T'Pring visiting the Enterprise a couple times with "Amok Time" and the rest of TOS. C'est la vie.

I do wish they had explicitly acknowledged that Spock is vegetarian with his bacon-loving. 

[paigow]

TOS!Chapel never met Spock prior to her first appearance in Season 1. Although she was already in Starfleet, she would never have stayed on Enterprise if Korby was alive and human.

[paigow]

The Sybok vision of a disgusted Sarek declaring newborn Spock as too human is a strong foundation for estrangement. Spock joining Starfleet as an act of rebellion / defiance was the kill shot.

[RachelKM]

I am by no means shipping Spock and Chapel, but I'm actually relieved they are just doing it now (no pun intended) instead of dancing around it with the nonsense of Spock leaving rooms every time Chapel comes in.

It helps that I am not particularly devoted to TOS. I like it.  But I'm not overly concerned about canon beyond maintaining the integrity of the characters if not chronology.  And I sort of assumed this show would be an AU. No matter what they intended initially, a prequel with characters and events so well established and so well known by so many people was always likely to prove too restrictive for show runners to stick with. I made peace with that before even turning the show on.

With that in mind, I enjoyed this episode.  I don't love the Vulcan = Jerk theme. I could handwave T'Pril as a snobby/prejudiced mother more than evidence of a culture if there were not so many instances of Vulcan snobbery toward humans sprinkled throughout the newer shows.  Even in this one, the Vulcan doctor was unnecessarily jerkish. But the episode was otherwise fun. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by RachelKM
Typos

[Stardancer Supreme]

Vulcan hijinks will never not be fascinating to me!  This is the journey and I am happy to come along with Spock. Ethan Peck is awesome and I love his interation as Spock. I won't call him Speck anymore! He earned my respect in this episode. 

T'Pril... Why agree to have the dinner on the Enterprise if you were going to say such nasty things to your human hosts? At least Pike knows he can cook Vulcan food!  I felt so bad for T'Pring to have such an overbearing mother. I can imagine the Vulcan equivalent to human eyerolls every time her mother spoke to her. I could almost say that T'Pril was trying to protect her daughter but the severe dislike of humans just overrode that sentiment.  That said, Spock should have told T'Pring what was up with him so she could have stood up for him more.  T'Pril really went at Spock's neck talking about Sarek.  Speaking of which, Sarek should have been there as well, estrangement from his son or not.  Sevet played the role of cowed husband and father well. 

I like Amanda. Only the love for Sarek and Spock kept her from verbally slicing T'Pril's neck. Amanda is far better than me because nobody would be talking greasy to me about mine in my face!  I would have been like, "Keep your daughter!" with my messy Human self. 

I'm also glad that Christine realized that the Vulcan Science Academy was beneath her. So now she has time to dally with Spock, which should be fun until the inevitable end of their relationship...  

[wmdekooning]

7 hours ago, rtms77 said:

We still don’t know why Amanda would go through all this to marry him (Sarek).

It seemed the logical thing to do! Wocka wocka! <Badum tsssh!>
 

Now, I enjoy Vulcan hijinks as the next humanoid (edit: From the neck up), but holy Sarek with a hot comb! Having Amanda Grayson show up kept me running through my head trying to figure who was onboard Enterprise during SNW and TOS and could have hipped Kirk and McCoy that Spock’s mum was human or why that wouldn’t have been a matter of record.

The aliens of the week were somewhat amusing with their insistence on the bureaucracy of customer contact and insistence that the user (Enterprise crew) was attempting to operate outside of the proper time frame.

T’pril, gatta love her, amirite?!!

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by wmdekooning

[Chicago Redshirt]

34 minutes ago, paigow said:

TOS!Chapel never met Spock prior to her first appearance in Season 1. Although she was already in Starfleet, she would never have stayed on Enterprise if Korby was alive and human.

I think that is just a couple of assumptions on your part, albeit probably reasonable ones. TOS doesn't directly say much about any of the character's backstories -- who knew one another, how long they had been serving together, where from etc. There is not a scene AFAIK from any episode that even suggests that we would have to rule out the possibility that Chapel had a stint on the Enterprise before we see her for the first time on screen, that she and Spock knew each other, etc.

It is hard, if not impossible, to square the demure TOS!Chapel with the notion of a swinging bi-Chapel from SNW who Spock apparently boned.  

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I felt so bad for T'Pring to have such an overbearing mother. I can imagine the Vulcan equivalent to human eyerolls every time her mother spoke to her. I could almost say that T'Pril was trying to protect her daughter but the severe dislike of humans just overrode that sentiment.  That said, Spock should have told T'Pring what was up with him so she could have stood up for him more. 

Say what you will about Vulcans in general, but the series has portrayed her in a much, much more favorable light.  The TOS version was a manipulative bastard who had no issues with sanctioning murder to break her engagement.  This one seems to genuinely care for Spock and has been willing to expand her comfort zone to try and understand him.  She was right to be hurt that he concocted this entire scheme but didn't think he could clue her in.

[MissLucas]

Hey, I wanted to see actual charades!

As someone who has always been annoyed by Spock's dismissal of his human heritage and the crap his mother had to deal with I'm perfectly okay with this episode. (It's possible that I'm unfair to Spock or at least TOS Spock - it's been a while.)

I'm also regarding the show as some AU version. I could not do that with Picard but for some reason it works here 🤷‍♂️

I really enjoyed Spock trying to deal with his human nature and I could feel the OCD rage about Kirk and his snack LOL! I also loved Number One, Uhura, La'an and Ortega giving him lessons how to be Spock.

T'Pril and science academy fratboy were prime examples of Vulcan jerks and the reason I prefer Romulans. They never pretend their attitude is anything but disdain and don't hide behind logic. (I guess that's where the Qowat Milat's absolute candor is coming from.)

That said, T'Pring had every right to feel hurt. Spock should have confided in her and the fact that he didn't was a red flag. Not sure where thing will go with Chapel but I think they did a good job with establishing the attraction the two of them felt. And good for Chapel to give science academy fratboy the finger - so to speak.

Aliens of the week were an amusing take on unhelpful helplines and the visual effects were great and certainly in line with TOS aesthetics (but rendered with today's means).

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, RachelKM said:

With that in mind, I enjoyed this episode.  I don't love the Vulcan = Jerk theme. I could handwave T'Pril as a snobby/prejudiced mother more than evidence of a culture if there were not so many instances of Vulcan snobbery toward humans sprinkled throughout the newer shows.  Even in this one, the Vulcan doctor was unnecessarily jerkish. But the episode was otherwise fun. 

I think from TOS on, there are plenty of examples of Vulcans being jerks to the point where nice ones are the exception more than the rule. Even Spock basically could be rude as hell. 

I think it's partially the writers establishing that even a steadfast devotion to logic and rationality won't insulate you from all sorts of human ills.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Even with super-advanced abilities, Customer Service still sucks.

[marinw]

“A Vulcan should have a more resilient bladder.” Great line .

Loved Pike’s fancy jacket. And T’pring’s dress was stunning. A three-hour debate worth having.

Edited July 14, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

T'Pril and science academy fratboy were prime examples of Vulcan jerks and the reason I prefer Romulans.

Another reason to hate the entire premise of Enterprise

Edited July 14, 2023 by paigow

[historylover820]

I liked it, but I think I'm with most of you --  this isn't a prequel to TOS. It can't be. It's an AU. Because there's no way that TOS and SNW fits together with the Spock/Chapel relationship. Korby doesn't exist, and the Spock/Chapel relationship isn't doomed by canon. Why? Because this is AU, like the Kelvin Universe. It actually does make more sense for it to be in the Kelvin Universe than the Prime Universe anyways. This explanation also factors in Discovery, although I still hate Discovery.

And reconciling myself to this being AU made me really enjoy this episode. I had fun. And I liked Ethan Peck when he and Anson Mount appeared on Discovery. I like every version of Amanda I've seen. 

I also liked Chapel telling the jerkass Vulcan that the Vulcan Science Academy isn't ready for her and he'll just have to read her paper later this year. 

And I laughed at Uhura, Una, La'an, and Ortegas teaching Spock how to talk like himself. Move your eyebrow without moving any other part of your face! 

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Another reason to hate the entire premise of Enterprise

I never watched very much of Enterprise, but isn't that where we get the idea that Vulcans find that humans stink and they use nasal suppressors? I was getting a feeling that the humans smelling bad was not a new idea in this series....

[Prevailing Wind]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Hey, I wanted to see actual charades!

Me, too!

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

40 minutes ago, historylover820 said:

I liked it, but I think I'm with most of you --  this isn't a prequel to TOS. It can't be. It's an AU. Because there's no way that TOS and SNW fits together with the Spock/Chapel relationship. Korby doesn't exist, and the Spock/Chapel relationship isn't doomed by canon. Why? Because this is AU, like the Kelvin Universe. It actually does make more sense for it to be in the Kelvin Universe than the Prime Universe anyways. This explanation also factors in Discovery, although I still hate Discovery.

And reconciling myself to this being AU made me really enjoy this episode. I had fun. And I liked Ethan Peck when he and Anson Mount appeared on Discovery. I like every version of Amanda I've seen. 

I also liked Chapel telling the jerkass Vulcan that the Vulcan Science Academy isn't ready for her and he'll just have to read her paper later this year. 

And I laughed at Uhura, Una, La'an, and Ortegas teaching Spock how to talk like himself. Move your eyebrow without moving any other part of your face! 

I never watched very much of Enterprise, but isn't that where we get the idea that Vulcans find that humans stink and they use nasal suppressors? I was getting a feeling that the humans smelling bad was not a new idea in this series....

M'Benga in this very episode asked Christine Korby's laws of archaeological medicine. So presumably, that is her future fiance Roger Korby and they haven't yet met. I was thinking that they were going to ship her off to meet him at the end of this episode. 

If one wants to flex and bend, there's not really much that out and out contradicts TOS. There's tough things to reconcile in terms of personalities and so forth. This Una doesn't seem like the Number One from the Menagerie. This Chapel wouldn't meekly make Spock a bowl of plomeek soup to try to catch his eye. 

Enterprise was indeed the first to float the notion that Vulcans think humans stink and that Vulcan women have a stronger sense of smell than the men. I wasn't clear if that was a cultural thing (like 19th century people might think that blacks or Irish were particularly stinky even though they aren't any more than any other group) or if it's actual biology. But since we're now 100 years past the Enterprise time frame, I would like to think a decent amount of the cultural bigotry has gone away. But then, maybe that is naive of me. The Vulcans of Spock's time were often biased against humans too. 

 

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There's tough things to reconcile in terms of personalities and so forth.

Yeah the main thing is that the Spock of TOS (aka the real Spock), by time he was 1st officer under the real Kirk would have already gone thru every possible human vs vulcan inner turmoil possible and not had those same issues

 

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Enterprise was indeed the first to float the notion that Vulcans think humans stink

This is I find pretty weak on the writers part and really leans into the "vulcans are horrible" narrative that these series are strangely putting forth.  What's logical about intentionally having no sense of smell? How come they can pick up scalding pots for fun but cant suppress how human smells make them feel? It was an odd choice to portray Vulcans so poorly in these recent series but here we are.

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah, the main thing is that the Spock of TOS (aka the real Spock), by the time he was 1st officer under the real Kirk, would have already gone thru every possible human vs vulcan inner turmoil possible and not had those same issues.

 

That's right. This is the journey from young Spock to TOS Spock! We just get to see the bumps and growth real time.

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

This is I find pretty weak on the writer's part and really leans into the "vulcans are horrible" narrative that these series are strangely putting forth.  What's logical about intentionally having no sense of smell? How come they can pick up scalding pots for fun but can't suppress how human smells make them feel? It was an odd choice to portray Vulcans so poorly in these recent series, but here we are.

 

Here's the thing; when were the Vulcans portrayed as super nice to humans? In the earlier Trek series, it seemed to me that the Vulcans merely tolerated humans until we started to catch up to them technology and knowledge wise. That snooty stuck up attitude probably covered a lot of bigotry towards humans. Vulcans aren't horrible people; they are just horrible towards humans, whom they view as their lessors.

[Sandman]

On 7/13/2023 at 7:27 AM, baldryanr said:

… and/or sick of Vulcans being portrayed as assholes.

:: raises hand ::

I just don’t see how “Vulcans have mastered their emotions, and value logic and self-discipline” equates to “Vulcans are petty, boorish, insensitive clods.” (I think we’ve seen Vulcans be cool and even haughty with humans in the earliest parts of the franchise, but active nastiness? That’s an invention of Enterprise, and I still think it’s stupid.) 

I also don’t see how genetic alterations would just erase decades of experience that Spock already has. But Ethan Peck’s comic timing is pretty much aces, so I’m torn. 

The Spock-Chapel shipping I’m kinda lukewarm on, I guess, but I like Mia Kirshner’s Amanda, and I think she and Ethan Peck have terrific chemistry as mother and son. I really liked the scene they shared as Amanda was leaving the ship, and I’m glad we learned a little more about the shared memory, and what it meant for both of them. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sandman

[QuantumMechanic]

• I've made my peace with SNW not being in the Prime timeline, whatever the showwriters might (falsely) claim.
• I loved the final seconds of the cold open! The reveal, the camera shot, the music. Very TOS-y vibes.
• If a transporter can split Kirk into good and evil duplicates I can't really complain about aliens de-Vulcanizing Spock now can I?
• Chapel, Chapel, Chapel. You never did try sulphur and heat did you. 😉
• Apparently even aliens have lousy customer service call centers
• Loved the scenes of the officers trying teach hu-Spock how to be Spock.
• I wonder if those were the actual prosthetics that Peck wears.
• No Pelia 😢
• Some nice scenes between Spock and his mom, especially when he realizes what she's had to go through her whole time on Vulcan.
• Not a fan of the Chapel/Spock love thang.

[Sandman]

13 hours ago, historylover820 said:

It's an AU. Because there's no way that TOS and SNW fits together with the Spock/Chapel relationship. Korby doesn't exist, and the Spock/Chapel relationship isn't doomed by canon.

Korby does exist: Unless I’m mistaken, those were his principles of archeological medicine that Christine had to memorize. (Does that mean he and Christine are of different generations?)

But I agree; more and more, it seems the only way this show works, or at least is enjoyable to me, is as an AU. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sandman

[QuantumMechanic]

57 minutes ago, Sandman said:

But I agree; more and more, it seems the only way this show works, or at least, is enjoyable to me, is as an AU. 

Bingo.  I've finally made that mental transition and I believe it will let me enjoy the show more.

58 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Korby does exist: Unless I’m mistaken, those were his principles of archeological medicine that Christine had to memorize. (Does that mean he and Christine are of different generations?)

Certainly in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" Korby was noticeably older than Chapel.

[kay1864]

Anyone else think the Awareness Ritual was just the Airing of Grievances? 😊

[thuganomics85]

Kind of interesting that between this and "Spock Amok" being the 5th episode last season, episode 5 apparently seems to be the time to have wacky Vulcan hijinks!

An alien race accidentally turning Spock into a human (because they assumed the Vulcan part needed to be "fixed") was a fun concept and I liked how the main issue was that his emotions were more on the level of a teenager because he never really had that phase before.  Ethan Peck was definitely having a ball with all of that.  Enjoyed seeing the rest of the crew's reaction to all of that craziness. 

Certainly can't argue too much with Spock's taste in women because along with T'Pring and Chapel, that scene with him and La'an seem to be hinting that he at least thinks she is physically attractive.  Don't blame him!  Kind of surprised they didn't try anything with Spock and Uhura though due to all of that history in the various versions of those characters.

T'Pril was definitely the poster child of the worst that Vulcans have to offer.  No real layers there, but the actress did a good enough job.  Kind of funny that the actor playing Sevet also played Arjun 2.0. in The Expanse, so he's apparently a go to for actors that need to play husbands of powerful, controlling women.

Sam Kirk is still around!  And almost got his ass handed to him by Human Spock for being a messy human being!  I wonder if he'll tell his bro about this particular day he had!

Mia Kirshner is always welcomed as Amanda!

All of the crew did admiral jobs, but I think I'll give Una the win for Best Vulcan/Spock voice.

Poor Pike really was hurt over T'Pril's dismissive reaction to his cooking skills.  Don't let the haters get to you, Captain!

Mainly indifferent to Spock/Chapel, but I'm glad they are already at least testing the waters of a relationship instead of continuing the awkward and "looking at each other from afar" path.  But I can't see it having real major impact unless they launch canon into another galaxy at Warp Speed.

Fun episode.

[Prevailing Wind]

38 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Sam Kirk is still around! 

I forgot who he was until Spock said his name. For a moment, I thought he was "wacky sidekick" from Galaxy Quest.

[paigow]

12 hours ago, wmdekooning said:

but holy Sarek with a hot comb! Having Amanda Grayson show up kept me running through my head trying to figure who was onboard Enterprise during SNW and TOS and could have hipped Kirk and McCoy that Spock’s mum was human or why that wouldn’t have been a matter of record.

TOS canon established that Spock had a human mother during Season 1. Season 2 started with Amok Time in which no parents from either side were allowed to attend the wedding ceremony. Followed by Journey To Babel  in which Kirk gives Sarek & Amanda a VIP welcome in the Shuttle Bay, then asks Spock if he wants to visit his parents on Vulcan. Only then does Spock reveal that Sarek & Amanda are his parents.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Certainly in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" Korby was noticeably older than Chapel.

TOS canon establishes that it started as a Teacher-Student relationship 

[greekmom]

I have to admit I watched and enjoyed this episode. Quelle surprise!

As a Trekkie who grew up during the TNG/Voy/Ds9 years and appreciates TOS - I've given up hope with Disc and this show. 

Was actually surprised as well that freaking Jenny Schecter popped up as Spock's mom.  T'Prill having her husband and her daughter as her yes people was funny.  The aliens of the week and their "no complaints were made during the appropriate time frame" - great nod to bureaucracy.  

Spock experiencing life as a human and acknowledging how hard it's been for Amanda (her life on Vulcan, Vulcan mom's shunning her, watching Spock being accepted by the other Vulcan kids) was funny and sweet.

I'm just watching for the Lower Decks crossover. Anyone know which episode that's going to happen?

[Sandman]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:14 PM, MissLucas said:

I also loved Number One, Uhura, La'an and Ortega giving him lessons how to be Spock.

This was a fun moment. I agree that Una had the best Spock Voice. 

On 7/14/2023 at 3:56 AM, paigow said:

TOS canon establishes that it started as a Teacher-Student relationship 

Thanks — I’d forgotten that detail. 

I also sympathized with T’Pring in that Spock should have let her in on it. But he had intended to tell her, and in the moment that he first chose not to, I think he genuinely did not wish to add to her burdens. (Dude could have found some way between then and charades, though.)

T’Pau, in TOS, might have more reason than most Vulcans to take a superior attitude, but she treated Spock’s human friends with grave, if formal, courtesy; even a degree of compassion, I would say. (I can’t help it — Celia Lovsky and Mark Lenard are still “real” Vulcans to me in ways that few other actors have matched. Though Fionnula Flanagan and Suzie Plakson get honourable mentions.)

Edited July 18, 2023 by Sandman
spellinginging

[marinw]

Horrible Mother in Laws are a universal trope.

Oh Pike I'll eat your delicious food anytime! 

Spock gobbling down bacon reminds me of my Jewish relatives who allow themselves bacon when not in their homes because it "doesn't count." I do have to wonder where Pike got the bacon. I don't think there are pigs on board, so Pike must have stocked up at a Starbase Walmart or Farmer's Market and has a really big freezer. Or it is some sort of vegan bacon, although Pike seems pretty old school.

Edited July 14, 2023 by marinw

[MissLucas]

This episode is worth rewatching just for Pike's reaction faces. Anson Mount was having a blast. When Amanda asks Spock to remove the beanie because she senses something's wrong Pike suggests going to sickbay pointing  and then skedaddling towards the door which closes the moment he tries to get the hell out of Dodge - and his whole body language is 'WTF?' - it's a wonderful bit of physical comedy in the background.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah the main thing is that the Spock of TOS (aka the real Spock), by time he was 1st officer under the real Kirk would have already gone thru every possible human vs vulcan inner turmoil possible and not had those same issues

 

This is I find pretty weak on the writers part and really leans into the "vulcans are horrible" narrative that these series are strangely putting forth.  What's logical about intentionally having no sense of smell? How come they can pick up scalding pots for fun but cant suppress how human smells make them feel? It was an odd choice to portray Vulcans so poorly in these recent series but here we are.

Would the Spock of TOS have gone through everything already about he human vs. Vulcan tension? I don't think so. The Spock of TOS has suppressed/downplayed his human side and considers it almost an insult to be reminded that he has a "human ancestor." It is something that he has not resolved throughout TOS IMO, and only really comes to peace with during the movies. Which seems fitting to me. Trying to find one's place in two different cultures is a reason why Spock spoke to me more than the rest of TOS characters growing up, and at least to me, that is a lifelong struggle. Even if we were to assume that he has resolved any internal conflict over it, the way the outside world -- or should I say, worlds -- treats him isn't going to necessarily see him for who he is. After all, T'Pau feels the need to ask "Are thee human or are thee Vulcan?"

Again, it would be rare that we met a Vulcan in TOS or elsewhere with more than a few speaking lines that didn't have some strong negative characteristics. Sarek, T'Pau, T'Pring, Stonn...while the first two had some redeeming qualities, they all had frailties like pride, ambition, arrogance hiding behind their logic. I would say TNG treated Sarek and Spock more reverently than TOS did, but had few other Vulcans of note. The Vulcan doctor had no personality, and there was a Vulcan terrorist character in Gambit. DS9 had that Vulcan supremacist who challenged the Niners to baseball in Take Me Out To The Holosuite. Voyager had Tuvok, who was generally cool, but could be "a real freakasaurus" and Torik and Vorik. I forget which of them was the one who basically was one step short of sexually assaulting Torres. Obviously Enterprise was premised on the notion that Vulcans were generally condescending douches. 

It would be eminently logical to suppress your sense of smell rather than to be constantly assaulted by the nasty odor of humans all around, 24-7. If literally humans stink to Vulcans like shit (except for Sarek, or maybe he's a dirty dog) it seems like a small price to pay to not be able to smell good things like roses or whatever to avoid that ordeal.

[Chicago Redshirt]

21 minutes ago, marinw said:

Horrible Mother in Laws are a universal trope.

Oh Pikle I'll eat your delicious food anytime! 

Spock gobbling down bacon reminds me of my Jewish relatives who allow themselves bacon when not in their homes because it "doesn't count." I do have to wonder where Pike got the bacon. I don't think there are pigs on board, so Pike must have stocked up at a Starbase Walmart and has a really big freezer. Or it is some sort of vegan bacon, although Pike seems pretty old school.

Pike mentions that they have replicators when he makes a contrast between using actual grown herbs rather than replicated ones. So the bacon could be merely replicated. (And I assume replicated bacon would taste as good as the real thing, or at least to most non-foodies).

In TOS, Kirk comments that he wants food cubes shaped into turkeys for Thanksgiving only to be surprised that they have been turned into actual turkeys thanks to Charlie.

So that is another bit of revision for those keeping track. One can fanwank that Kirk's Enterprise was running low on supplies or something, but eh...it's just easier to accept that not everything has to be on all fours and that the 1960s vision of what the future could hold and how society would be is different from what the 1980s-2000s vision and different from the 2020s vision. 

[marinw]

10 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In TOS, Kirk comments that he wants food cubes shaped into turkeys for Thanksgiving only to be surprised that they have been turned into actual turkeys thanks to Charlie.

More retconning. By the TNG/DS9/VOY era the replicators would have been way more sophisticated than those of the SNW/TOS era.

The whole Chapel/Spock thing makes me deeply uncomfortable, given TOS. I did find it realistic that Vulcan Fellowship Guy wasn't moved to change his mind by Christine's initiative and hard work. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by marinw

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Would the Spock of TOS have gone through everything already about he human vs. Vulcan tension? I don't think so. The Spock of TOS has suppressed/downplayed his human side and considers it almost an insult to be reminded that he has a "human ancestor."

That is my point, the Spock of SNW doesnt line up with TOS Spock. If the original Spock had actually been a human for some hours or day and gone thru what SNW Spock just went thru- clearly he wouldnt have had all the issues he did as he'd already have actually been a human AND had resolution with his mother's situation. 

 

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It would be eminently logical to suppress your sense of smell rather than to be constantly assaulted by the nasty odor of humans all around, 24-7.

No it wouldnt, not when you are going on away missions with one of your senses suppressed. What would have been logical for the canon of the show is that despite how Vulcans apparently believe humans smell, they are able to suppress/ignore that odor bothering them just as they have no problem picking up scalding pots and not letting the heat bother them. Being in total control of one's emotions and feelings is quintessentially Vulcan, not using artificial means to avoid an odor that you find displeasing. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by tv-talk

[Affogato]

54 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

That is my point, the Spock of SNW doesnt line up with TOS Spock. If the original Spock had actually been a human for some hours or day and gone thru what SNW Spock just went thru- clearly he would have had all the issues he did as he'd already have actually been a human AND had resolution with his mother's situation. 

 

No it wouldnt, not when you are going on away missions with one of your senses suppressed. What would have been logical for the canon of the show is that despite how Vulcans apparently believe humans smell, they are able to suppress/ignore that odor bothering them just as they have no problem picking up scalding pots and not letting the heat bother them. Being in total control of one's emotions and feelings is quintessentially Vulcan, not using artificial means to avoid an odor that you find displeasing. 

If I can accustom to formaldehyde in a few minutes the Vulcans. Can set their repugnance aside. 

BTW , not feeling pain from holding a hot kettle is a disability. Also Amanda, Spock and  vulcans should burn and blister. We are all protoplasm here. 

[Sandman]

Yeah, the tea ceremony as Gom Jabbar didn’t make a lot of sense to me. Many cultures have ceremonies that involve physical risk, but there’s usually some connection between the nature of the ceremony and the risk involved. (It also made me wonder if maybe Vulcan history is littered with incidents of potential mothers-in-law getting scalded by “accidentally” yeeted kettles?)

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sandman

[norcalgal]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

This episode is worth rewatching just for Pike's reaction faces. Anson Mount was having a blast. When Amanda asks Spock to remove the beanie because she senses something's wrong Pike suggests going to sickbay pointing  and then skedaddling towards the door which closes the moment he tries to get the hell out of Dodge - and his whole body language is 'WTF?' - it's a wonderful bit of physical comedy in the background.

My absolute favorite comedic moment of the episode was when Pike attempts to serve more Vulcan food at Sevet's request, but that's the moment Spock reveals his "humanness" so Pike veers aaaaway from the group with the tray of food he was carrying!  OMG, I literally LOL'd.  🤣 

[MissLucas]

The hot tea kettle ceremony reminded me of 'Kung Fu' - they should have made a mash-up. Once you have the dragon burnt into your wrists you're worthy of facing the mother-in-law dragon.

[jah1986]

So many great observations about this episodes, one of my favorite moments was La'an realizing Spock was having "feelings" about her. Her pat on the shoulder and getting out of there ASAP was hilarious. I had to wait for the credits to verify that it was Mia Kerschner portraying Amanda, she looked so different than she did on Discovery. But she was great, and I lover her interactions with Spock and telling him that it's hard for a human to love a Vulcan. I'm still not loving Spock/Chapel, especially after they made us like T'Pring so much. I'll miss her, if this is the last we see of her.

[paigow]

8 hours ago, marinw said:

I do have to wonder where Pike got the bacon. I don't think there are pigs on board, so Pike must have stocked up at a Starbase Walmart or Farmer's Market and has a really big freezer. 

Dude has sides of beef hanging in his cabin [an unseen corner]... 5 lbs of Pork Belly occupies little space in comparison...

Also I have witnessed [ETA: informal, non-legit] Kosher waivers applied to Chinese food consumed at home... 

Edited July 14, 2023 by paigow

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

That is my point, the Spock of SNW doesnt line up with TOS Spock. If the original Spock had actually been a human for some hours or day and gone thru what SNW Spock just went thru- clearly he wouldnt have had all the issues he did as he'd already have actually been a human AND had resolution with his mother's situation. 

 

No it wouldnt, not when you are going on away missions with one of your senses suppressed. What would have been logical for the canon of the show is that despite how Vulcans apparently believe humans smell, they are able to suppress/ignore that odor bothering them just as they have no problem picking up scalding pots and not letting the heat bother them. Being in total control of one's emotions and feelings is quintessentially Vulcan, not using artificial means to avoid an odor that you find displeasing. 

It is not a very good assumption IMO that what we see in Charades would resolve this conflict for Spock forever and ever, amen. Something could happen between now and TOS that makes Spock shun his human half the way he does in TOS. The "cure" that the customer-service aliens provide might make Spock's Vulcan half more, or even too, dominant. 

At the end of the day, TOS Spock doesn't always line up with TOS Spock. The same guy who yelled "THE WOMEN!" in The Cage/the Menagerie is pretty dissimilar to the eyebrow-raising cold-blooded one that we have come to know and love in the bulk of TOS's run. And again, people's mileage may vary, but TOS Vulcans are rarely in total control of their emotions either. They tend to just hide their emotions under layers of rationalization and a stoic exterior.

There have been few if any away missions that turn on one's sense of smell that come to my mind. And there are things to compensate for it -- tricorder readings and the sense of smell of the rest of the party for instance.

The sense I got from the episode was that the tea kettle is uncomfortably hot for a human, but not at all for a Vulcan. So it is not a question of suppressing the pain from the heat. It is that Vulcans are adequately insulated from the heat. And of course, Vulcan senses may work differently from humans. But I think it is generally easier to put out of mind a sensation based on touch than it is smell. 

[paigow]

Can we extrapolate that Future!Pike reaches a temporal fork in the road...

Left: Crippling accident

Right: Vulcan caterer