S02.E05: Charades

[AWhittle]

I saw this in the headline of one of the episode reviews online. 

Notice how conveniently Uhura went on the shuttle with Chapel and Ortega, thus avoiding T'Pring. That would coincide with TOS where Uhura asks Spock who she is on the viewer.

I don't know... Some instances, they tweak the continuity like Khan etc. and other instances they make the series fit TOS.

[Bizabra]

I grew up with TOS and loved the movies. Didnt care for the spinoff series, they all were too serious and lacked the fun goofiness I loved in TOS.

I don't care if TPTB follow "canon". I think this series can stand on it's own. The writing, acting, production are all top notch.

This episode had me laughing out loud. It was fun! 

Just enjoy it for what it is. Think of all the series a different tellings of the same story, told by different people at different times, with different agendas and perspectives.

They can be inconsistent, contradictory, have different timelines, simply because they same story is being retold by someone else's.

Its like studying history. You get different versions of the same events because they were told and retold and written up by objective scholars and/or partisans with an agenda.

Remember, this is ALL fiction, not actual TRUTH, so just watch and enjoy or change the channel!

[Affogato]

I rewatched Amok Time. In the distant past I rewatched the episodes of TOS a lot, but I haven't watched any of them for decades.

Vulcan was a silly place, wasn't it? the glitter on the rocks really was funny. But I don't care about that, and they were operating at a disadvantage compared to modern shows.

T'Pring really had worked things out logically, and Vulcans are supposed to be logical. I really do think that Spock and the others understood it. Also, Kirk was nothing to her and it was her right to have the champion of her choice.

There is the moment when Spock almost gives into what is clearly his attraction. The scene where she says 'my name is Christine' and he says "I know' , eventually he asks for Plomeek soup (does anyone know what a plomeek is?) which is a kind of apology that almost became something else (but then she said they were enroute to Vulcan). I thought, then, that maybe I could spin a story where they had known each other in the past, maybe on the enterprise, and something had happened. It was a scene that I could see history in, if I looked at it sideways.

If it is an AU I think it is too bad. It is a lost opportunity.

2 hours ago, AWhittle said:

I saw this in the headline of one of the episode reviews online. 

Notice how conveniently Uhura went on the shuttle with Chapel and Ortega, thus avoiding T'Pring. That would coincide with TOS where Uhura asks Spock who she is on the viewer.

I don't know... Some instances, they tweak the continuity like Khan etc. and other instances they make the series fit TOS.

Hasn't Uhura met her before. she was all over he ship last season.

[Affogato]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:34 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The sense I got from the episode was that the tea kettle is uncomfortably hot for a human, but not at all for a Vulcan. So it is not a question of suppressing the pain from the heat. It is that Vulcans are adequately insulated from the heat. And of course, Vulcan senses may work differently from humans. But I think it is generally easier to put out of mind a sensation based on touch than it is smell. 

I thought it was like walking on hot coals, although then you survive because you sweat and keep moving. You don't pick it up and hold it.  I actually thought it was hot for Vulcans as well, and meant as a test of how you could resist pain without showing a reaction, which is a pretty Vulcan sort of test. Even, so, kind of stupid. If it hadn't been a pick up and hold it until the flower opens situation it would have made more sense.

You can't have hot mitts for hands without losing a lot of dexterity and sensitivity, which would not jibe with the harp playing and scientific prowess. And protein cooks at about the same temperature.

[Starchild]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What exactly are the examples in SNW where you are saying officers disrespected Pike or the chain of command?

I don't think it's disrespect in the "military" sense. I think it just feels like a much more casual environment. Earlier Trek had the characters interacting in a more structured, hierarchical organization, where superiors gave orders and were friendly, but not friends, with their subordinates.

This Trek feels more like a civilian workplace with a horizontal org structure where the CEO (captain) is trying to be more socially/emotionally available to the employees (crew). Members of the military don't interact with each other like this.

And yes you can argue Starfleet isn't exactly a military organization, but honestly, if they aren't the Federation's military defense force, then who is? They act to defend their citizens against all threats, so if they're not considered military, they are the Federation's police force, at the very least, and large police forces have a quasi-military, hierarchical structure.

So, bottom line, the way they interact with each other gives me (and some others, it seems) a little cognitive dissonance. Jellico would hate it lol.

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

And yes you can argue Starfleet isn't exactly a military organization, but honestly, if they aren't the Federation's military defense force, then who is? They act to defend their citizens against all threats, so if they're not considered military, they are the Federation's police force, at the very least, and large police forces have a quasi-military, hierarchical structure.

That's probably true for the crew of a battleship, but I think explorers have more leeway to be less formal.

[Starchild]

We've seen that, when necessary, these vessels of exploration become battleships. It would be a challenging transition if they didn't maintain the military org structure.

I think it's true that there was more militarism in the later Treks, not so much during TOS and TAS, though it started creeping in during the TOS movies. By that measure I can see a show like SNW, in the same timeframe, being less militaristic as well. However, this crew is still a heck of lot less formal than (some of the same) crew that would man this ship just a few years later under Kirk.

[historylover820]

Gene Roddenberry would agree with you who say that Starfleet isn't a military organization, but its explorers and scientists. And he hated Nicholas Meyer flat out making it military, down to the uniforms, in WoK. 

However, you have military ranks (Captain, Commander, Lieutenant, etc). Your ship has weapons. Kirk says that he's more of a soldier than a diplomat in one episode. There are several episodes all across Trek that has the crew gearing up for battle. 

However, not every commander is rigid and formal. Pike is much more casual and informal. He's more of a "father to his men." I'm betting if his crew goes too far out of line that he would be able to discipline them. Or he can probably go "I'm the Captain. You do what I tell you" pretty easily.

When he was on Discovery, when he first gathers the officers of the Discovery together, he tells them that he encourages ideas, that he doesn't know everything, so feel free to advise. But the ultimate decision is his. And he has an open door policy. Of course, I'm paraphrasing. 

I think his leadership style is just as valid if he has officers that he trusts and he knows trust him.

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, Starchild said:

We've seen that, when necessary, these vessels of exploration become battleships. It would be a challenging transition if they didn't maintain the military org structure.

The other thing we see is there are literally no space battleships that arrive when wars breakout. The so-called explorers are expected to be great military tacticians that face-off vs every threat while wielding all the very best weapons humans have come up with so far. You could say that Alexander the Great was exploring but his was definitely a military. The Enterprise is as much a military vessel and crew as exists at that time. The fricking Doctor on the ship is a full-on warrior replete with a secret green sauce he uses to handle Klingons in hand-t-hand combat! It is definitely a military operation as much as scientific and exploration. 

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, Starchild said:

We've seen that, when necessary, these vessels of exploration become battleships. It would be a challenging transition if they didn't maintain the military org structure.

Discovery started in the same timeline... Burnham was more like Vasquez from Aliens than Vasco da Gama

[Starchild]

Yes. Roddenberry may have wanted to focus on the peaceful missions, and good on him for that, but there was no alternative force when things got hairy.

We've never seen one fleet for exploration/science and one for war/defense. We've only ever seen a few ships that specialize in one (Reliant) or the other (Defiant).

Starfleet is for both science/exploration and military/defense purposes, there's no two ways about it, really.

[ofmd]

Odor suppressants, teapots, charades, oh my!

I actually thought this was a well-rounded, fun episode, despite the fact that I'm not a fan of the Lurve Triangle (and am also tired of depicting Vulcans as assholes, and very one-dimensional ones at that, but I guess that ship has sailed).

I enjoyed the farcical comedy elements of deception, despite the Evil (future) MIL tropes etc. (And oh, how funny it is when a husband is oppressed and weak! Women, amirite?)

That said, oh boy, we're back to the Spock/ Chapel romance novel (and it has nothing to do with TOS continuity; in fact, I don't care about that). Sigh, I should have known the "Vulcan scholarhip" was just a tease, no way they'd resolve the Starcrossed Lovers story so quickly. They're gonna milk it.

My general dislike of love triangles doesn't help, but this one is particularly grating. Like with many so-called love triangles, the restrictions for the couple we are supposed to root for are kind of made up. Spock and T'Pring are adults who already know their visions for their future don't match, it'r ridiculous they are still together. I like this version of T'Pring, but she's seen so many red flags by now, she must be willfully color blind to overlook Spock's reluctance to go through with it.

Also, the premise of the whole "Spock becomes human" thing is flimsy. Are you telling me in a universe full of space-traveling species they're not aware of the concept of mixed races, pardon, machines with conflicting instructions? (That terminology btw is very much in continuity with the problematic Trek view of ethnicity/ race/ mixed race, but I digress.)

A nitpick: No, Una, Uhura & Erica, Spock does not "sound like that." His voice modulation is subtle but there.

Still, despite all that, I felt entertained and the acting was very good.

ETA: wrt Spock not telling T'Pring, my impression was that he intended to, but chickened out when she mentioned the mind meld. I assumed that she would do one with her mother, so maybe he feared Evil MIL would get access to that memory? But apparently it doesn't work that way.

Edited July 18, 2023 by ofmd

[baldryanr]

10 hours ago, historylover820 said:

I think his leadership style is just as valid if he has officers that he trusts and he knows trust him.

Based on what we've seen Starfleet gives its captains a lot of leeway on how to run their ships, which seems inevitable when you're pretty much on your own for extended periods of time.  There's no way McCoy would have gotten away with what he said to Spock half the time if Kirk was a more traditional military officer.  Picard started off as more formal, but we all know how that ended up. 

Ultimately it's because we're watching a TV show, and someone (the audience itself, executives, etc.) decided Our Heroes shouldn't just be colleagues, they need to be close buddies.  There are no doubt crews with a much more rigid command structure (Jellico, Shelby, etc.)

[starri]

Let's turn the discussion back to the episode at hand, please.

We're all Trekkies, and we love talking about this stuff, but if the bulk of your post is comparing to a different series, it belongs here.

[Guest]

On 7/17/2023 at 2:06 PM, Affogato said:

Hasn't Uhura met her before. she was all over he ship last season.

Yes and no. She has met her but has never seen her. T’Pring was on the Enterprise in only one season 1 episode and she shared a scene with Uhura but she was in Spock’s body and pretending to be Spock. The only other time T’Pring was visible to the crew of the Enterprise was the one episode Uhura wasn’t in.

Now with them having Uhura off the ship before T’Pring arrives, it feels safe to say it has been a deliberate choice to not explicitly break canon. 

[baldryanr]

9 hours ago, Dani said:

Yes and no. She has met her but has never seen her. T’Pring was on the Enterprise in only one season 1 episode and she shared a scene with Uhura but she was in Spock’s body and pretending to be Spock. The only other time T’Pring was visible to the crew of the Enterprise was the one episode Uhura wasn’t in.

Now with them having Uhura off the ship before T’Pring arrives, it feels safe to say it has been a deliberate choice to not explicitly break canon. 

Even if Uhura was on the ship it's easy enough to explain away them not meeting.  We've seen no indication that T'pring hangs out with the rest of the crew when she visits, so there's no reason to believe that both of them being on the ship at the same time equals they must have met.  Spock might be more chummy than he was in TOS (could you imagine that version hanging out with Una, Ortegas, La'an, and Uhura in the mess?) but not necessarily to the point of having her meet all of his shipmates.

 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Even if Uhura was on the ship it's easy enough to explain away them not meeting.  We've seen no indication that T'pring hangs out with the rest of the crew when she visits, so there's no reason to believe that both of them being on the ship at the same time equals they must have met.  Spock might be more chummy than he was in TOS (could you imagine that version hanging out with Una, Ortegas, La'an, and Uhura in the mess?) but not necessarily to the point of having her meet all of his shipmates.

 

I would imagine the enterprise crew  would all want a peek at T'Pring. It would be gossipy and a big deal. Also if they felt comfortable making the human comments they likely know him socially. But it appears she missed her, u less she shows up again. 

[tennisgurl]

I really wanted to see the charades! 

That was a fun episode, I do enjoy Vulcan hijinks, even if it usually involves Vulcans acting like assholes. Spock becoming a hormonal human was pretty hilarious but I think that Pike really stole the comedic show with his expressions and body language, especially his "nope!" when he walked over right after Spock told everyone the truth about him turning human. Its always great to see Amanda, the shit she puts up with.

I know that T'Pring and Spock cant end up together because of what happens in TOS, but I really wish that they could somehow make it work. I really like the shows version of T'Pring and I like her and Spock's relationship, she's really the sort of Vulcan character that I can appreciate. She's certainly very logic based and stoic, but she's a good person who is willing to get out of her comfort zone and tries to see things from other perspectives. Its too bad that she becomes this manipulative woman scorned by the time of TOS, although at this point the show might as well just be an alternate universe from that show. I certainly like her with Spock better than Chapel, who I really don't see much chemistry between. I like them alright and I am glad that they're finally getting together instead of tiptoeing around each other, but its a big meh to me. 

Glad to know that crappy mother in laws and pain in the ass customer service are both still around in the future!

[txhorns79]

The episode was a little too Three's Company for my tastes. Mia Kirshner also seemed way too young to be Spock's mother.  Finally, I was confused about how changing someone's DNA changed their hairstyle?  Aren't Vulcan haircuts just a fashion choice, not something genetically determined?  

[Chicago Redshirt]

Mia is in her 40s and IMO looks darn good for her age.

Assuming for discussion's sake that Spock is in his mid-to-late 20s and Amanda is somewhere between mid-50s to mid-60s, then no, she doesn't look that age. But it could just be hundreds of years from now beauty and preservation treatments are way more advanced. 

I don't know if I think the Amanda from "Journey to Babel," who would presumably be 5-10 years older than the one in this episode looked to be 60+, but IMDB tells me that she was 57 at that point.

[Pallas]

Twenty-one years older than Leonard Nimoy and fourteen years older than Mark Lenard, who fathered Spock at age seven: the age of reason. ("At the time...it seemed logical.")

[Ottis]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:01 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

If one wants to flex and bend, there's not really much that out and out contradicts TOS. There's tough things to reconcile in terms of personalities and so forth.

That's where I land. This Spock is still wrestling with how he feels about his human side. He ultimately will decide to firmly suppress it, and we see that in TOS, as well as learn of Korby and Christine. Heck, Spock is on a break and may not see T'Pring again until Amok Time, I suppose, though I don't recall all of TOS in detail. 

Christine boning Spock? Well, consider ... there were scenes in TOS where Christine clearly had a crush on Spock, and it was not reciprocated. I used to wonder what that was about. Easy to handwave and say it was something never consummated BUT ... it is possible those TOS interactions were remnants of a past relationship, one we are seeing happen now. Then it will end and Spock will suppress it and Christine will as well but she is occasionally wistful.

Overall, I loved this ep. Some very nice human touches, including Spock acknowledging his mom's sacrifices in a way that will carry her through their future interactions. A few laughs as well. Man, Mount really enjoys playing goofy. His U-turn in the background as Spock revealed he was human was a treat.

Canon aside, this felt like Star Trek to me, with overemoting here and there.

ADD: ST:Enterprise was the only ST I ever quit watching, thought it was awful, so I don’t know where “stinky humans” originated but the fact we smell is a truth. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Ottis

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

That's where I land. This Spock is still wrestling with how he feels about his human side. He ultimately will decide to firmly suppress it, and we see that in TOS, as well as learn of Korby and Christine. Heck, Spock is on a break and may not see T'Pring again until Amok Time, I suppose, though I don't recall all of TOS in detail. 

Christine boning Spock? Well, consider ... there were scenes in TOS where Christine clearly had a crush on Spock, and it was not reciprocated. I used to wonder what that was about. Easy to handwave and say it was something never consummated BUT ... it is possible those TOS interactions were remnants of a past relationship, one we are seeing happen now. Then it will end and Spock will suppress it and Christine will as well but she is occasionally wistful.

There are TOS scenes between the two that seem harder to reconcile given SNW's relationship between the two.

For instance, in "What Are Little Girls Made Of"

KIRK: Enterprise to Korby. We have your co-ordinates pin-pointed. We're preparing to beam down a party. It may interest you that we have aboard this vessel

KORBY [OC]: I've a rather unusual request, Captain Kirk. Beam down alone, just yourself. We've made discoveries of such a nature they may require an extraordinary decision from you.
SPOCK: That's an unusual request.
KIRK: The man making it is Doctor Roger Korby.
SPOCK: You're certain you recognise his voice?
CHAPEL: Have you ever been engaged, Mister Spock? Yes, it's Roger.

SNW Christine knows Spock has been engaged and has met Spock's fiancee. It would therefore be more natural for her to say something like, "You'd recognize T'Pring's voice, wouldn't you?"

In "The Naked Time," Chapel confesses her love for Spock in a way that makes far more sense if they had never dated and she just admired him from afar rather than they had a previous relationship:

SPOCK: Nurse? Where is Doctor McCoy?

CHAPEL: He's gone to the lab.
SPOCK: Lab. Lab, respond please. Spock here. Lab!
CHAPEL: Mister Spock.
SPOCK: What is it, Nurse?
CHAPEL: Mister Spock, (takes his hand) the men from Vulcan treat their women strangely. At least, people say that, but you're part human too. I know you don't, you couldn't, hurt me, would you? I'm in love with you, Mister Spock. You, the human Mister Spock, the Vulcan Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Nurse, you should
CHAPEL: Christine, please. I see things, how honest you are. I know how you feel. You hide it, but you do have feeling. Oh, how we must hurt you, torture you.
SPOCK: I'm in control of my emotions.
CHAPEL: The others believe that. I don't. I love you. I don't know why, but I love you. I do love you just as you are. Oh, I love you.
SPOCK: I'm sorry.

And in Amok Time, there is this exchange:

SPOCK: Miss Chapel.

CHAPEL: Yes, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: I had a most startling dream. You were trying to tell me something, but I couldn't hear you. It would be illogical for us to protest against our natures. Don't you think?
CHAPEL: I don't understand.
SPOCK: Your face is wet.
CHAPEL: I came to tell you that we are bound for Vulcan. We'll be there in just a few days.
SPOCK: Vulcan. Miss Chapel.
CHAPEL: My name is Christine.
SPOCK: Yes, I know, Christine. Would you make me some of that plomeek soup?
CHAPEL: Oh, I'd be very glad to do that, Mister Spock.

It again seems weird to think that Spock has reverted to calling Chapel "Miss Chapel" if they were friends and lovers fivish years prior, and for Christine to feel like she had to say "My name is Christine" when obviously he knows that.

 

[historylover820]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There are TOS scenes between the two that seem harder to reconcile given SNW's relationship between the two.

For instance, in "What Are Little Girls Made Of"

 

 

SNW Christine knows Spock has been engaged and has met Spock's fiancee. It would therefore be more natural for her to say something like, "You'd recognize T'Pring's voice, wouldn't you?"

In "The Naked Time," Chapel confesses her love for Spock in a way that makes far more sense if they had never dated and she just admired him from afar rather than they had a previous relationship:
 

 

And in Amok Time, there is this exchange:

 

 

It again seems weird to think that Spock has reverted to calling Chapel "Miss Chapel" if they were friends and lovers fivish years prior, and for Christine to feel like she had to say "My name is Christine" when obviously he knows that.

 

You'd think that TOS didn't know about Spock/Chapel :D

Everything else in SNW, I'm completely fine with in terms of TOS canon. I don't care if they want to introduce JTK before he takes command of the Enterprise. I'm fine with this. I'm fine with the little inconsistencies. I'm OK with Spock being more human in this one. 

But, I can't reconcile myself to Spock/Chapel, except by saying that this is an alternate timeline. The only explanation is that you've got two attractive actors, and there has to be a love story. And there's canon relating to Chapel having an unrequited crush on Spock. 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

 

 

And in Amok Time, there is this exchange:

 

 

It again seems weird to think that Spock has reverted to calling Chapel "Miss Chapel" if they were friends and lovers fivish years prior, and for Christine to feel like she had to say "My name is Christine" when obviously he knows that.

 

The Amok time scene seems to me to fit with SNW and might have inspired it. Her comment seems like a hurt rebuke and it softens him. Of course he is hormonal. 

If T'Pring is not general knowledge in current time, why would she bring it up? There are new people and gossipy ones. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

The Amok time scene seems to me to fit with SNW and might have inspired it. Her comment seems like a hurt rebuke and it softens him. Of course he is hormonal. 

If T'Pring is not general knowledge in current time, why would she bring it up? There are new people and gossipy ones. 

I suppose one could construct a reading of the "My name is Christine" that is not absurd on its face coming from someone who had been intimate with Spock, but when you look at the actual Amok Time scene, that's not the subtext that is there. 

The point with the other scene is more easy to reconcile, as Christine could still have asked that rhetorical question despite her knowledge of his engagement. But it would seem odd and awkward. She didn't actually have to name drop T'Pring's name. She could have said "You've been engaged." Or just not asked the rhetorical question. Especially since she would/should know it's not as though Spock wants the rhetorical question. Just the yes would be sufficient.

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I suppose one could construct a reading of the "My name is Christine" that is not absurd on its face coming from someone who had been intimate with Spock, but when you look at the actual Amok Time scene, that's not the subtext that is there. 

The point with the other scene is more easy to reconcile, as Christine could still have asked that rhetorical question despite her knowledge of his engagement. But it would seem odd and awkward. She didn't actually have to name drop T'Pring's name. She could have said "You've been engaged." Or just not asked the rhetorical question. Especially since she would/should know it's not as though Spock wants the rhetorical question. Just the yes would be sufficient.

It isn't absurd if he used to call her Christine and has formally called her "Nurse Chapel" or "Miss Chapel" for several years. They are having a personal moment, and she reminds him of a personal connection? Is it Pon Farr, or does he move towards her, remembering that they used to be closer?

I'm not saying the subtext is there, but I think that, if the show had gone on for five more years, some writer, some time would have taken up the thread of that story, in the TOS episodic manner.

I said in some thread or another that the hard part is how Kirk acts towards Chapel, since he would know whatever happened and have known her a long time. Because that is not a story that has yet to be written, that is a blemish on his character and seems unlike him.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

The tone from the scene is pretty clearly not "hey, drop the 'nurse' formality...my name is Christine, remember." 

It's apparent that Chapel does not think that Spock knows her first name.

[Ottis]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:44 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

There are TOS scenes between the two that seem harder to reconcile given SNW's relationship between the two.

Thanks for that great research. It makes it easier to see the possibilities.

It's pretty clear that the writers of SNW are taking some liberties with canon to fill in white space and deepen stories only hinted at in TOS. I think, though, that I can still go along with them, because the stories are pretty good.

Also, they have some wiggle room. The "my name is Christine" line, for instance, could be read as an exasperated former lover reminding the now maddeningly formal Spock, "My NAME is Christine."  Perhaps after deciding once and for all to suppress his emotions and end the relationship, Spock elected to go back to calling her Nurse Chapel.

Is it perfect? No. But it is workable given we have a show from almost 60 years ago that no one expected to become what it did now being linked to a show in 2023. If you have to weight perfect canon with good storytelling, there will be some (hopefully minor) misconnects.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Ottis

[Ceindreadh]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The tone from the scene is pretty clearly not "hey, drop the 'nurse' formality...my name is Christine, remember." 

It's apparent that Chapel does not think that Spock knows her first name.

True, but that seems illogical.  Spock is the second in command on the Enterprise and has interacted with Chapel several times before that scene.  At some point he must have been introduced to her.  Just because he only uses one name, doesn't mean he wouldn't remember other people's names. 

[LydiaMoon1]

I'm still trying to figure out why Spock's mother is younger than him.

[marinw]

2 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

why Spock's mother is younger than him

Some time travel thing probably.