S08.E02: Into The Dalek

[Chip]

A Dalek fleet surrounds a lone rebel ship, and only the Doctor can help them now… with the Doctor facing his greatest enemy, he needs Clara by his side. Confronted with a decision that could change the Daleks forever he is forced to examine his conscience. Will he find the answer to the question, am I a good man?

[John Potts]

While a bit of a rehash of Dalek, I for one loved this (unlike my dad, who thought it silly). I floved the fact that while the soldiers were getting reamed by the daleks, they did actually kill one, because it's hard to see there could ever be a war where one side is incapable of killing the other. Of course, you have to wonder how they have managed to stay in the fight until now, given they didn't remove the dalek's gun durng the "surgery" (obviously they haven't seen X-Men: Days of Future Past!). So the Grand Moff has undone another piece of Rusty's legacy with... Rusty the Dalek. The Daleks aren't completely invulnerable to anything other than divine intervention but they know who the Doctor is, so another piece of the pre RTD status quo is restored. We even have another Dalek civil war (like in both Remembrance and Daleks take Manhattan).

 

Quite like Danny Pink (his school years must have been a trial with that surname, something I know about myself), who seems believably human and not just eye candy. Though I'm sure he fulfills that function too.

[Llywela]

 but they know who the Doctor is, so another piece of the pre RTD status quo is restored.

Wasn't it Steven Moffat who removed the Doctor from the Daleks' databases/memories in Asylum of the Daleks? Not that that made any sense anyway, given time travel.

 

I found this episode messy and incoherent, a step backward after Deep Breath.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Quite like Danny Pink (his school years must have been a trial with that surname, something I know about myself), who seems believably human and not just eye candy. Though I'm sure he fulfills that function too.

 

Is it possible that Danny Pink is a soldier from the future who has hidden himself in a different time ?  That's why he won't answer the students about who he's killed.

 

That pink and blue names line by Clara can't just be a throwaway.

 

Let's not forget the return of Missy -- is everyone who dies during deeds with the Doctor across all times going to end up in Missy's version of Heaven.  Why didn't Ross (the first soldier killed inside the Dalek) go to Missy's Heaven ?

Edited August 30, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[supposebly]

The Doctor being a therapist for a Dalek, what could possibly go wrong?

 

Apparently, nothing.

 

This one seemed like an incoherent rehash of Dalek. It even used the line "You could be a good Dalek." Just without real point or bite to it.

 

Like with many Moffat-era episodes, the character bits are often pointless and the plot questions keep me watching. I'm starting to wonder for how long.

[AudienceofOne]

I found this episode messy and incoherent

 

 

Word.

 

Unlike a lot of Moffat's stuff, I found it to be quite good in conception. I've long been annoyed by the Doctor's hypocritical self-righteous attitude to morality, coming as it does from a man that Davies made genocidal and Moffatt an outright murderer. So I like the idea of actively acknowledging and exploring that. This could have been an extension of Dalek without being

 

an incoherent rehash

 

Exactly.

 

Instead, the execution was unbelievably poor and, as normal for Moffatt, clunky and clumsy with poor dialogue and anvils dropping faster than a Dalek antibody.

 

The Dalek we met at the beginning was already genocidal - "the Daleks must all die" - and they dub it a "good Dalek". The Doctor, Clara, the soliders all use those exact words, "A Good Dalek". Then, at the end, when it shares Twelve's memories and starts running around yelling "The Daleks Must All die" it's treated like is suddenly a bad thing. And it is. I thought so the first time around and couldn't understand why it kept getting called "good".

 

Basically, its interaction with Capaldi caused no difference in its behaviour. Whether it was "good" or "bad", it was still genocidal. Thus, Ford and Moffatt have written an episode that tells us absolutely nothing about Capaldi's Doctor except that he's more prone to reflect on his actions and less likely to try to justify them.

 

I do have other thoughts about Clara's inability to remember being a Dalek (I was waiting for that to be part of her anger at the Doctor's giving up halfway through, but it wasn't.) Even if she didn't remember, the Doctor should and I don't know why he didn't think of that when faced with the question of whether there'd ever been a "good Dalek" before. Not to mention the episode Dalek itself. If you're going to rip it off, at least hang a lantern on it.

 

Finally, there was the annoying religious elements of the script. It was one thing for mad Daleks to create a religion in Nine's era. It's another thing to put those concepts in the Doctor's head. "Soul". "Divinity". "Divine perfection". The Doctor being God. This is where I stop being polite and tell Moffatt to fuck off. I thought we jettisoned these clumsy religious metaphors with Davies and I was glad they were gone.

[John Potts]

supposebly It even used the line "You could be a good Dalek." Just without real point or bite to it.

 

See, I thought it was more of an ironic echo. When Davros (or was it the Emperor Dalek?) described the Doctor as "The Great Exterminator" it was meant as a condemnation, in that while he claims to be a Healer, he's really just a Killer (with good PR): here it was actually meant as a compliment, insofar as an insane Killing Machine can actually compliment anyone.

 

OttoDBusDriver Let's not forget the return of Missy -- is everyone who dies during deeds with the Doctor across all times going to end up in Missy's version of Heaven.  Why didn't Ross (the first soldier killed inside the Dalek) go to Missy's Heaven ?

 

For all we know, Ross did and was just off smelling the roses. But I disliked that scene as it seems to suggest that she's some sort of Bad Fairy with mystical powers (The Psychotic Guardian, perhaps!?) and I prefer more "Sci" in my "SciFi".

[NCChic]

Am I the only one who has trouble understanding Capaldi sometimes? I'm seriously thinking of putting on the closed captioning to try and understand him (and Jenna at times).

[Lantern7]

Well, that was interesting. And messy with Dalek protein. Apparently, you can't help some people, and that includes poor stupid Rusty.

 

I think I like this new Doctor . . . he's more coarse and rough around the edges than before. I think he might be Six with better management. And he can take getting slapped by Clara, which was funny to me. My mother disagrees with me . . . she found the concept to be "stupid." Or maybe I'm a sucker for ministr- . . . shrinking stories.

 

I agree that "Blue" and "Pink" much not be coincidence. I also might get tired of seeing Missy pop up every week. At least next week's episode looks like a rollicking .good time.

[mustbekarma]

Seriously, how many times can the Dalek race be resurrected and exterminated? I thought the Doctor committed genocide and they were all dead again. Blech. I'm bored with Daleks. "Exterminate!" no longer scares me. It's just damn annoying.

 

I'm still not digging Clara all that much. I loved the soldier lady, though. I think I would have liked her as the new companion.

 

I kind of think the Capaldi doctor is just a dick. I might have even muttered that under my breath a few times during the episode. All right, I yelled it.

 

I just think that the dialogue and actions  in this episode Matt Smith and David Tennant would have been able to pull off as eccentric and slightly frenetic. Capaldi just has too serious of a demeanor and almost too much gravitas.

 

Hell, I didn't even like it when Clara slapped the Doctor. I think Amy or Donna slugging his predecessors would have been funny. Clara just seems so bland to me. The only time I thought she had any chemistry was with Mr. Pink. Hell, I think he'd made a better companion than Clara, and there was just what, five minutes of screen time with him?

 

As to the Doctor not wanting the soldier because she was a soldier, I cry a hearty BULLSHIT! Or should I say "BRIGADIER." 

 

I'm giving this Doctor one more episode before I quit. I'm just not digging this guy, or this companion.

[benteen]

Am I the only one who has trouble understanding Capaldi sometimes? I'm seriously thinking of putting on the closed captioning to try and understand him (and Jenna at times).

 

You weren't the only one.  I found Capaldi and a number of the actors tonight hard to understand.

 

I enjoyed it, I think it got better as it went on.  I didn't think the title Into the Dalek would be quite so literal.  Didn't expect to see the reappearance of "Heaven."

 

I thought the bit where the Doctor what was left of Ross was on the goo and asked if they had any last words to be hysterical.

 

I liked the Danny Pink character, interested in seeing where that  goes.

 

What the hell is the Doctor's problem with soldiers all of a sudden?  Is it resentment over the centuries he spent fighting wars, the Last Great Time War and Trenzalore?  Even Clara seemed to have this bug up her ass at first with Danny.

Edited August 31, 2014 by benteen

[Meredith Quill]

Let's not forget the return of Missy -- is everyone who dies during deeds with the Doctor across all times going to end up in Missy's version of Heaven.  Why didn't Ross (the first soldier killed inside the Dalek) go to Missy's Heaven ?

 

My theory is that her ending up in Missy's 'world' is connected to her asking the Doctor to name something after her and giving him her full name, how that fits with the android from Deep Breath - no clue!

 

I also felt the episode was a retcon of Dalek and dour overall, I'd like to see Capaldi smile or look happy at least, so far, this Doctor seems too serious, all.the.time. Even a tiny bit of humorous quipping wouldn't go amiss. I realise we're only 2 episodes in but I'm missing those aspects.

 

The whole (paraphrasing) "you can't come with me because you were a soldier", blatantly setting up for Danny Pink travelling with them sooner or later and him as an ex soldier being an issue.

 

In other news: next weeks episode looks GREAT! Love me some medieval romping! :)

[magdalene]

I don't know. I can't get into these Dalek episodes anymore.  To me they are the WHO villain I can really do without now. This episode underwhelmed me.

 

Going by the preview next week might be more to my taste.

[GenieinTX]

I do have other thoughts about Clara's inability to remember being a Dalek (I was waiting for that to be part of her anger at the Doctor's giving up halfway through, but it wasn't.) Even if she didn't remember, the Doctor should and I don't know why he didn't think of that when faced with the question of whether there'd ever been a "good Dalek" before. Not to mention the episode Dalek itself. If you're going to rip it off, at least hang a lantern on it.

 

 

OMG, this was driving me nuts.  How could that not even mention that one of Clara's echos was trapped inside of a Dalek??  That's a big deal. 

 

I really like Danny Pink so far.  Yeah! for another good character on the show.  ::sideeye at Missy::  Not loving the Missy pop ups. 

 

And I too had to turn on my close captioning.   I was about to hit reply when I realized I hadn't really said much about the episode.  I like the characters, the storyline..  maybe not so much.

[alias1]

I didn't like this episode as much as last week.  And I think it was too soon to have a Dalek episode.  Seeing previews for next week, I would have rather had that episode before this one.   

 

I kept waiting for some reference to Clara being a Dalek.

 

I guess Moffat is going to hit us over the head every week with the Missy stuff, like he did with the crack in the wall.

[futurechemist]

Does Dalek Caan also count as a good Dalek?  He did work to undermine Davros' plan.

 

The soldier bit at the end bugged too.  10 let Jennie redeem herself, and also liked Ross (Poison Sky).  11 gained respect for Father Octavian (Flesh and Stone).  Not to mention the Brigadier.

 

I suppose they're making this Doctor more pragmatic.  But it's a bit too dark for me.  I understand why he left Clara in the cyborg base, and why he gave the pill to the doomed soldier.  But both left me thinking "Wow this guy is a jerk!"

 

Missy is still intriguing me.  My money's on Master, husband's money is on Rani.

[AudienceofOne]

I didn't even like it when Clara slapped the Doctor

 

 

Part of Moffatt's ongoing "female violence is funny" theme. Wrapped up as it is in his rampaging misogynism it's annoying. This was may the least offensive example.

[benteen]

OMG, this was driving me nuts.  How could that not even mention that one of Clara's echos was trapped inside of a Dalek??  That's a big deal. 

 

I really like Danny Pink so far.  Yeah! for another good character on the show.  ::sideeye at Missy::  Not loving the Missy pop ups. 

 

And I too had to turn on my close captioning.   I was about to hit reply when I realized I hadn't really said much about the episode.  I like the characters, the storyline..  maybe not so much.

 

This seems to be a theme.  Despite having been in the Doctor's timestream, she seems to remember nothing about it.  She really should know more about the Doctor than anyone.  It's like they're trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

 

I like the random popups and characters going to her heaven is intriguing.

Edited August 31, 2014 by benteen

[AudienceofOne]

It's like they're trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

 

 

You mean like, "River is the Doctor's wife", "the Doctor's name is revealed at Trenzalore", and "the Timelords are coming back" etc etc etc. Moffatt spends whole seasons coming up with ways to clean up the mess he made in the finale of the previous one. It's almost as if his brain farts aren't thought through. (That last bit was sarcasm).

[mustbekarma]

I didn't even like it when Clara slapped the Doctor

 

    

Part of Moffatt's ongoing "female violence is funny" theme. Wrapped up as it is in his rampaging misogynism it's annoying. This was may the least offensive example.

 

I should have phrased that statement more clearly. I thought this Doctor was so annoying, I wouldn't have minded slapping him. I find so Clara so "blah" that I couldn't even cheer for her doing that. In real life, I can't hit annoying people, but I like to live vicariously through fictional people, sometimes. So I didn't like her doing it because it was kind of boring, not because I'm opposed to fictional violence.

[benteen]

I should have phrased that statement more clearly. I thought this Doctor was so annoying, I wouldn't have minded slapping him. I find so Clara so "blah" that I couldn't even cheer for her doing that. In real life, I can't hit annoying people, but I like to live vicariously through fictional people, sometimes. So I didn't like her doing it because it was kind of boring, not because I'm opposed to fictional violence.

 

I hear what you mean.  It didn't feel earned.

[Primetimer]

The Doctor's latest patient follows in the footsteps of Sarah Jane Smith and Captain Jack to get his own spinoff series! (Not really, but let's pretend!)

Read the story

[benteen]

I saw a few people on another board wonder if Journey will be a future companion.

[wisteria]

Is there any truth to the story that Terry Nation's estate stipulates that they have to use the daleks at least once per season, or else the BBC loses the rights? That might explain why they keep showing up even though they're the victim of diminishing returns (and not nearly as scary as they used to be.) Then again, they do seem to still be popular with a lot of fans, even if many of the rest of us are getting tired of them.

 

ETA: Or, y'know, I could just google the answer. Someone asked the same question on Reddit a few months ago, but the consensus was that it's speculation that has never been confirmed.

Edited August 31, 2014 by wisteria

[CatWarmer]

Why didn't Ross (the first soldier killed inside the Dalek) go to Missy's Heaven ?

 If we think the cyborg threw himself off the skin balloon instead of being pushed, we now have two "souls" who sacrificed themselves in support of the Doctor's objectives.  Maybe that's the way to get to Missy who I really really hope grows on me since I'm not impressed with her at all yet.  Ross died because he attacked without thinking.

 

 

I do like the new Doctor; much more interested in the problem than the people, which separates him from previous Doctors.  Also he seems to be using Clara rather than partnering her, which is fine with me.  But as others have said, the dialogue was hard to understand.  And the whole concept of good vs evil vs divine vs free will et al was too haphazard for me.

[benteen]

Is there any truth to the story that Terry Nation's estate stipulates that they have to use the daleks at least once per season, or else the BBC loses the rights? That might explain why they keep showing up even though they're the victim of diminishing returns (and not nearly as scary as they used to be.) Then again, they do seem to still be popular with a lot of fans, even if many of the rest of us are getting tired of them.

 

ETA: Or, y'know, I could just google the answer. Someone asked the same question on Reddit a few months ago, but the consensus was that it's speculation that has never been confirmed.

 

That's interesting....I had never heard that.  The last time the Daleks weren't used was in the final season of Classic Who.  Terry Nation was very much alive then.  I did read that Nation tried to take the Daleks to American television back in the late-60s/early-70s so he must have had some control over his creation.

[FiveByFive]

As much as I wanted to love Capaldi's stint as the Doctor this episode wasn't helping. I know Moffat knows that most people are tired of the Daleks although I'd rather have them than the Cybermen again. The only interesting thing about this episode, to me, was how the Doctor legitmately did not care about whether or not he was at fault for making the Dalek evil again. So it was basically, "Let's find out why he's good and repair him!  Oops! He's evil again! Told ya' so!"

 

Clara bores me to tears and it's not the fault of the actress. Mostly the character did what she had to do to become the most "special companion ever" prior to this season so everything she does now is just, "Eh." It would be more interesting, at least, if she acted like she remembered the fact that she was, "Made to save the Doctor!" and actually take a role on the series as such. She shouldn't be a subordante. She should be an equal more in the way Donna became towards the second half of her run. Her teling The Doctor off was a good step in that direction.

 

I saw a few people on another board wonder if Journey will be a future companion.

 

That was pretty much what I was thinking since it follows the history of the show's introduction to companions. Donna popped up before appearing as a companion in a Christmas special. Technically Martha popped up (although it was her cousin) in an episode before her appearance as a companion. Now we have Clara who popped up before her stint as a companion. I have a feeling when Clara goes, Journey will have stopped being a soldier for a significant amount of time and somehow become entanged with the Doctor again and get to travel with him.

[benteen]

It'd be fun to have another companion from the future.

[companionenvy]

Ugh. Really didn't like this one, for some of the reasons people have already mentioned, but I've gotta vent.

 

First, while I appreciate that Doctor Who is willing to explore the moral ambiguity of the Doctor, I find attempts to draw moral equivalence between him and the Daleks shallow and unconvincing. There are a lot of things to criticize the Doctor for. He is often guilty of great selfishness toward his companions. He sometimes goes too far in meting out what he perceives to be justice. He assumes - sometimes willingly, sometimes not -- the power of a god without having the infinite wisdom or dispassion to do so entirely responsibly; he goes to war to rescue Amy, for instance, which he almost certainly wouldn't have done for someone he wasn't personally connected to. But what I've just described is a fallible person making hard choices and sometimes getting it wrong, to tragic effect. That's a far cry from being a genocidal monster out to destroy every species other than your own. 

 

It seems to me that the show made the Doctor uncharacteristically awful in this episode in order to justify the comparison (which I think was further-reaching and less nuanced than similar moments in Dalek and Journey's End) - I know there are differences between regenerations, but I don't think that any Doctor who is recognizably the Doctor could be as absolutely unsympathetic as Twelve was to a woman who had just lost her brother - in the same episode in which he angsts about whether or not he is a "good man" and an episode after he empathized with a freaking dinosaur. 

 

Then, we've got the awful "no soldiers" rule. There are so many ways in which that scene failed:

 

1. It makes no sense that the female soldier would even want to travel with the Doctor. He was inexcusably callous to her earlier in the episode. She hadn't experienced anything particularly wondrous with him, and while she could have been impressed by his general level of knowledge and competence, he doesn't come off all that well in the course of the adventure either, to say the least. So why does she want to travel with him? Apparently, simply so we can have a scene in which the Doctor can tell her that he won't travel with  her because she is a soldier. That's lousy writing. 

2. The Doctor has never had any such rule before. As such, I can assume that the primary reason for establishing one here is to create false tension when Danny Pink invariably wants to sign on. Again, the script is making characters do things purely to serve the plot, and again, that's bad writing.

3. It suggests it is always wrong to be a soldier, which is just stupid. If the Daleks have taken over your planet and vowed to kill every last human, that's a pretty darn good reason to go to war against them.

4. It is disgustingly privileged. Even if we buy into the idea that it is always, or even usually, wrong to be a soldier, people usual make that choice for a variety of cultural and economic reasons that have nothing to do with how good a person they are.  I know very ,very few people of my generation who have served in the military. That isn't because I hang out with a particularly moral crowd, it is because I come from an upper middle class suburb in the Northeastern US. We didn't need to join the army to pay for college. We went to a good high schools that prepared us for higher education and a range of professional careers. Our families had enough money to continue to support us after the age of 18, and to provide a safety net if plans went awry. Most of us had no strong family tradition of service. It is very, very different for a lot of people in a lot of places, and for the Doctor not to recognize that is inexcusable. And, of course, there's that thing called a DRAFT which means that some soldiers don't have much choice about the matter at all. 

 

Of course, I expect the Doctor to soften his stance in time for Danny to join the crew, but I still think we're supposed to read the Doctor's resistance to the soldier as largely valid and well-founded rather than absolutely hypocritical and entitled. 

[benteen]

Excellent post.  Your point about Journey is dead on...when she said she wanted to join the Doctor, my first thought was "huh?"  It felt like she jumped from Point A to Point B way too quickly.  And as you stated, her journey with the Doctor wasn't exactly the best sales pitch for joining up to be a companion.  Maybe the Doctor showing her another way with the Daleks (and the earlier scene in the TARDIS) made her realize the life she currently had isn't the one she wanted.

 

Considering the Doctor spent 900 years fighting a war on Trenzalore (not including the Time War), his view is hypocritical there as well.  These humans he met had their planet conquered by the Daleks, who want to wipe them out.  Why is it wrong to fight back?  Even when Journey finds another way of dealing with them, he still brings up the nonsensical soldier thing.  If the Doctor's issues with soldiers is resentment from the Time War and Trenzalore, that would at least be understandable.

 

This Doctor is in no position to judge anyone.

Edited August 31, 2014 by benteen

[Maelstrom]

Even though we're only two episodes in, things are looking more or less like I expected: the writing is pointless and rather hollow, Clara is disinteresting at best, and Capaldi is the best part of the show. Though to be honest, he has yet to be as awesome as I expected him to be. I've just seen him being awesome on the Musketeers, so I know he has more to offer than what we've seen so far. I blame the writing - it almost seems like Moffatt is too busy establishing Twelve's shtick to bother developing him as a full character, or to delve into who this man actually is. (That made more sense in my head. I dunno. It's late here.)

 

Random note: is it just me, or are they making Capaldi look older and craggier for the show? He looked years younger in the World Tour special that aired along with the new episode. Maybe the show made him look older so the many, many old jokes last week would work.

 

Don't care about Missy, or Clara's new love interest. And what's with the ending? After (yet again) reinforcing the notion that the Doctor and the Daleks are more alike than either cares to think about, Clara just flits off for a date? Maybe it's just me, but it struck me as very discordant against the tone of the episode. Isn't she supposed to be his "best friend", the companion who knows him better than any other companion? Sorry Moffs, I'm not buying it.

 

I'm going to stick around to see how Twelve develops. But I'm afraid it's going to be more of a slog than I expected.

[Llywela]

Is it possible that Danny Pink is a soldier from the future who has hidden himself in a different time ?  That's why he won't answer the students about who he's killed.

I think it's more likely that he's an ex-soldier from here and now who is painfully aware that civilians have been (accidentally) killed on his watch and has a touch of PTSD about it. You don't have to come from the future to not want to talk about killing. I watched this episode with my boyfriend, who is an ex-marine, and the moment the kids started asking that question he was all, "no, no, no, you do not ask a soldier that question."

I do have other thoughts about Clara's inability to remember being a Dalek (I was waiting for that to be part of her anger at the Doctor's giving up halfway through, but it wasn't.) Even if she didn't remember, the Doctor should and I don't know why he didn't think of that when faced with the question of whether there'd ever been a "good Dalek" before. Not to mention the episode Dalek itself. If you're going to rip it off, at least hang a lantern on it.

I think we have to accept that Clara has no memory of her splinter selves, none whatsoever. Whatever her voiceover might have said while she was actually in the timestream and whatever Moffat might have gushed during interviews, on-screen is has been apparent for several episodes now that she has exactly no memory of that experience. If they try to twist it later that she does remember after all, I'm going to cry foul.

As to the Doctor not wanting the soldier because she was a soldier, I cry a hearty BULLSHIT! Or should I say "BRIGADIER."

 

What the hell is the Doctor's problem with soldiers all of a sudden?  Is it resentment over the centuries he spent fighting wars, the Last Great Time War and Trenzalore?  Even Clara seemed to have this bug up her ass at first with Danny.

Exactly. I suppose the 'no soldiers' thing is specific to this Doctor, a new development, but still. It was an entire episode to set up a new and unlikely personality tick for the Doctor just so he can overcome it later when he meets Danny, which of course he will because that's the only reason for us to see so much of Clara's new colleague in the first place.

 

I saw a few people on another board wonder if Journey will be a future companion.

My bf was convinced we were going to swap Clara for Journey in this episode. But no, she existed purely for the Doctor to reject her - a bit like Lady Christina back in one of Tennant's specials.

 

I do like the new Doctor; much more interested in the problem than the people, which separates him from previous Doctors.  Also he seems to be using Clara rather than partnering her, which is fine with me.  But as others have said, the dialogue was hard to understand.  And the whole concept of good vs evil vs divine vs free will et al was too haphazard for me.

I thought the moral stance this episode was trying to take was dubious at best, and Clara annoyed me enormously. And the thing is, I can think of any number of past companions (classic and new) who could have pulled it off. They'd have made it a question - is it possible you could be wrong, is there any chance we could do something for this creature and save all the Daleks from being evil? But Clara's damn over-confidence makes her so sure she's right and the Doctor is wrong, condemns him outright for hating Daleks, when he's known their evil through all his lives. I think he's a better judge of them than she is. Tonally, this was a mess and I wasn't sure what kind of point they were trying to prove. I caught elements of Genesis of the Daleks and of Dalek and various other stories, all hashed together incoherently. A real shame.

 

I still don't like this part-time companion gig of Clara's. I get that she wants to hold onto her real life and move it forward while also travelling with the Doctor, but the issues that should come about as a result of the dual life aren't really being dealt with (they tried a bit with Amy and Rory but were too locked into other ongoing arcs to really address the part-time thing in any depth), and also...it still doesn't ring true to me that the Doctor would keep going back, especially now he's regenerated. The Doctor I've known for so many regenerations would drift away - see the 4th Doctor drifting away from UNIT as case in point. He'd be aware that Clara was getting on with her life, would get distracted and meet new people and would just drift away, stop going back. Clara has never had an extended stretch in the TARDIS, iirc. It's always been one adventure and then home and that routine just isn't working for me. It doesn't feel like Doctor Who. Even back at the height of the Pertwee era, when there was a solid story-based reason for the Doctor to be tied to Earth, he didn't actually stay tied all that long and was enormously frustrated by the anchor while it lasted. As soon as he had his ability to roam restored, he started staying away for longer and longer, until at last he stopped going back at all once he no longer had a companion with him from that time. It was only having companions from that era that kept him going back at all post-regeneration - if Clara isn't actually living and travelling aboard the TARDIS for more than a single adventure at a time, I just can't see the bond that keeps him going back to her, not when he's out there meeting new people, any one of whom could take her place.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Llywela

[aliya]

Thank you, companionenvy. You said a lot that was on my mind.

 

 First, I had a hard time understand Capaldi, again. I started to post something about it last week, but thought it was just me.

Second, as the widow of a Vietnam combat vet, I take anti-soldier stuff very seriously and admit to being biased. Not every soldier is perfect, not every war needs to be fought, but the 'no soldier' rule (where did that come from?) just struck me as terribly wrong headed, especially when both the UK and the US have soldiers overseas in harms way, and it looks like it may get worse.

 

I've read articles from UK newspapers that indicated that the Brits don't treat their returned soldiers the way we do. Maybe they don't feel they have to make up for the sins of the Vietnam-era as I think we feel as a society; still, it doesn't seem that their soldiers are well thought of. It sure seemed that way tonight on the Doctor.

 

With the first soldier killed by the antibodies, it seemed like the Doctor knew he was going to die and that was all right with him. So one minute, philosophically we're against soldiers or killing or whatev, and the next minute, when a real live person gets killed, there's not a tear nor passing thought.

 

I thought the show had an interesting concept that was poorly served in the execution.

[Kalliste]

This episode was pretty meh, I felt like it could have been good but it wasn't. The doctor wasn't engaging or interesting he was just matter of fact and a bit boring. Maybe we've been spoilt by the previous doctors taking an interest and pride in knowing everything and showing their companions in an entertaining way.

 

I was most annoyed when he fixed the Dalek and then wondered why the Dalek was fixed. Yes, he got to be right but he should have seen it coming. 

 

It was also frustrating to see him give orders with the 'no idea' what to do next coming out but that he also didn't seem to care whereas previous doctors would have tried to come up with something.

 

The next episode seems another eh for me. It should be a bit more fun but I'm not sure I will like it. 

 

it's funny to think that there was a time when I really loved Moffatt and his episodes (most notable Girl in the Fireplace) and now I wish he'd stop being so Moffatt like.

[Llywela]

With the first soldier killed by the antibodies, it seemed like the Doctor knew he was going to die and that was all right with him. So one minute, philosophically we're against soldiers or killing or whatev, and the next minute, when a real live person gets killed, there's not a tear nor passing thought.

I was reminded of this exchange between the Doctor and Sarah, way back in 1975, on finding an ally murdered:

 

SARAH: Oh! Doctor.

DOCTOR: Strangled.

SARAH: The mummies.

DOCTOR: Not this time. There are marks. His late brother must have called.

SARAH: That's horrible! He was so concerned about his brother.

DOCTOR: I told him not to be. I told him it was too late.

SARAH: Oh! Sometimes you don't seem...

DOCTOR: Human? Typical Osiran simplicity.

SARAH: A man has just been murdered!

DOCTOR: Four men, Sarah. Five, if you include Professor Scarman himself, and they're merely the first of millions unless Sutekh is stopped. Know thine enemy. Admirable advice.

There, the seeming callousness was clearly set against the Doctor's focus on the bigger picture, so that we could understand that while he appeared not to care about the murder of an ally, it was not just because of his alien detachment but also because he was trying to save so many more lives. I find the 12th Doctor's detachment reminiscent of the 4th's, with the writing doing him no favours - the principle in the two scenarios was much the same, but the rationale didn't come across as clearly or as sympathetically in this episode.

[miles2go]

Really, this was dire.  The writing was a mess, the characters uninteresting, and the Daleks just plain boring.  And I wish Moffet would drop the woman-slaps-man (usually the Doctor) schtick.  IT ISN'T AMUSING.

 

Okay, sorry.  I know I'm sounding like a cranky old geezer on a rant. (Probably because I am a cranky old geezer on a rant.)  I guess you can tell I'm disappointed.  Wasn't even all that crazy about Capaldi this time around.

 

I have hopes, though, for next week, being that I'm partial to  Robin Hood stories.  I hope Maid Marian doesn't slap anyone.

[Joe]

I have to point out that in the past, the Doctor hasn't been all buddy-budy with the military, even while he was working for them. There's been many times when he was very much down on militaries all through space and time. He tends to feel that they have an attitude of shoot first and ask questions later. And they very often want to shoot him, or at least lock him up.

[Llywela]

I have to point out that in the past, the Doctor hasn't been all buddy-budy with the military, even while he was working for them. There's been many times when he was very much down on militaries all through space and time. He tends to feel that they have an attitude of shoot first and ask questions later. And they very often want to shoot him, or at least lock him up.

This is true. But he's also always been one to see individuals for who they are, even when they are soldiers. He was friends with the Brigadier, Sergeant Benton, Captain Yates - all soldiers. He took Harry, a naval officer, with him as a companion (although I've always thought it significant that out of all the friends he had at UNIT, it was the medical officer, a non-combatant, that he chose to take with him in the TARDIS). He befriended soldier Ross in Poison Sky and mourned his death. It just jarred slightly to see him reject Journey as an individual just because she's a soldier; that's a new twist. But then again, it also jarred slightly that she wanted to go with him in the first place after not really spending very much time with him and not seeming to appreciate what she did see of him; that decision on her part wasn't built up well by the story. Because she was a soldier, dedicated and grimly committed. Would she really walk away from her comrades in the middle of a war? That's desertion. It didn't seem in character for the person she'd been established as.

[Joe]

From memory, he was always pretty down on Harry. Always insulting him and such. But that's getting away from the topic. The Doctor has always had an uneasy relationship with the military, I can see how he wouldn't want another soldier on board.

 

However, if this had been a story from the eighties, she would have boarded at the last moment. He wouldn't be able to get her home again, and would have eventually come to respect her. Interesting how standards change.

[Elsinore]

This episode wasn't spectacular, not boring but not brilliant either.

 

I like the idea of going inside a Dalek in theory, but it all went of a little too easily. Also, the inside of a robot should not resemble a giant warehouse. But that's just me.

 

Psyched for next week though.

[tankgirl73]

He'd be aware that Clara was getting on with her life, would get distracted and meet new people and would just drift away, stop going back. ...  if Clara isn't actually living and travelling aboard the TARDIS for more than a single adventure at a time, I just can't see the bond that keeps him going back to her, not when he's out there meeting new people, any one of whom could take her place.

 

 

I wonder if that's what will be the impetus for her to leave.  Maybe this season, with her not really bonding with 12 the way she did with 11 (not outright rejecting him, but just not bonding in the same way), and getting a love interest on Earth, they're going to gradually drift apart until by the Christmas special she stays home with Pink.  I think the last I heard was that it was confirmed but then it was a rumour again, so I'm speculating about the timing of Clara's departure.  But I can see that being the method of it.  

 

As for the soldier thing - as it's been mentioned, the Doctor has always had issues with the military.  Part of it is the shoot first and ask questions later thing, and part of it is the following orders at all costs and ignoring your personal morality side of it.  I think when he's seen past the soldier aspect to the individual, it's been when those individuals were soldiers by career but not 'mindless' order-followers -- they were soldiers who would stand up to their superiors, or show regret for their actions, that sort of thing.  

 

Perhaps with miss Blue, the Doctor saw that she was a kind person 'underneath it all' but that her soldier-ness was still her main quality.  She wasn't *enough* of an individual to go with him.  Not necessarily that he was condemning her being a soldier -- someone has to fight the Daleks after all -- but that it meant she wouldn't be right for him to travel with.  "I never know why, I just know who" and there was something about her that wasn't right for him.  He meets lots of great people and rejects many of them as potential companions.

 

The episode was also about the potentiality of Dalek's to be more than their 'programming' -- and Daleks are the perfect soldiers.  This was mentioned in the episode -- they follow orders, dispassionately and without moral compass or remorse.  The epitome of soldierness.  And while this Dalek became 'good' in the sense that he came to see Daleks as 'evil' -- he still went on a killing rampage.  His solution was still violence. Even as an individual who appreciates beauty and life, no longer following orders, he was still a 'soldier' who would shoot first and ask questions later.  The Doctor had hoped this 'good' Dalek would *teach* the others, but instead it only wanted to destroy them.  It really hadn't changed its level of hatred and destruction -- only its target and reason for hatred.

 

Then there's the Doctor's own hatred for the Daleks and the desire for genocide which he feels but knows is wrong -- too far.  He wants to be better than the man who hates a race so blindly that deep down he wants them all dead.  He needs someone with him to temper that desire, someone to remind him to look for the good, to look for the options.  A companion who is a soldier might not be that aspect for him, but would instead go along with his own violent desires.  She would follow his orders without standing up to him and questioning his motives, the way Clara did in this episode.

 

Plus, I think it was intended to be kind of dickish of him.  Clara's last comment about "well *I* don't have a problem with it" was clearly intended to be a passive aggressive dig at the Doctor's rejection of Blue.  Maybe this is something that will be developed further this season -- as the Doctor (inevitably) meets Pink, Clara will demand to know what's his problem with soldiers anyway???

[GenieinTX]

Perhaps with miss Blue, the Doctor saw that she was a kind person 'underneath it all' but that her soldier-ness was still her main quality.  She wasn't *enough* of an individual to go with him.  Not necessarily that he was condemning her being a soldier -

 

 

That's my take.  He didn't reject her because he job was solider.  He rejected her because inside she was too much "solider" instead of person - following orders blindly being the biggest part.  She did show some growth in the ep, that she didn't follow the order to blow up the Dalek with them in it, but I think the Doctor was turned off too much by her earlier actions.

[tv echo]

At first, I was turned off by the return of the Daleks - I'm kinda over "Exterminate! Exterminate!".  I just thought they were really trying to sell Peter Capaldi as the new Doctor by bringing  in the Daleks - usually a fan favorite - this early on in his tenure.  But then I got into the story with the miniaturized squad entering the Dalek and ended up kinda liking this episode overall.

 

I also liked PC as the Doctor better in this episode.  It made me realize why I wasn't crazy about him in the first episode - it was his acting.  I realize that PC is supposed to be a good actor, but in the beginning, when the Doctor was all amnesiac and strange, it just seemed like a serious actor doing a bad impersonation of a quirky Doctor.  I just didn't buy it.  But in this episode, PC seems more settled into his new skin as the Doctor so I found him more believable, although when he gets too quirky, it still seems out of character.

 

I also still don't see any companion chemistry between PC as the Doctor and Clara.  I thought there was more chemistry between  John Hurt's War Doctor and Clara in that one scene between just the two of them.

 

As soon as we found out the new teacher in Clara's school used to be a soldier, I suspected that he was the supposedly dead brother of the female rebel soldier.  When the mysterious Missy saved that female soldier, I was more certain that Missy had also saved the brother, messed with his memores, and planted him in Clara's school as Danny Pink.  At some point, there could be a reunion between brother and sister - and I speculate that the sister, Journey, will become the Doctor's new companion, while Clara decides to spend more time with the brother and less time traveling about with the Doctor.  It's time for Clara to go anyway - she used to be a really interesting mysterious character but now she's just mundane.  She should be using her knowledge of all the Doctors and their adventures in some fashion.

 

What is Missy's purpose?  Who is she?  That's likely a season-long story arc.  I'm taking a wild guess and speculate that it's tied to the Doctor's freezing Gallifrey in a moment in time,  Maybe she's another Time Lord who escaped the freezing, and her "Heaven" is actually her TARDIS?  That's how she was able to save people - in the same way that the Doctor saved Journey.

 

Another question: why are there still Daleks?  I thought that the War Doctor's original use of the destruction device killed all Time Lords and all Daleks thus ending the war (which assumes that all Daleks were attacking Gallifrey at that time) and that the Doctors' do-over just froze Gallifrey (saving the Time Lords) which made it disappear and caused all the Daleks to shoot each other.  So why are there still Daleks around - unless there's some Dalek-making home planet, or unless this rebellion takes place in an earlier time?

 

P.S.  When the Doctor gave his "into darkness" reply, I immediately thought of Star Trek.

[benteen]

From memory, he was always pretty down on Harry. Always insulting him and such. But that's getting away from the topic. The Doctor has always had an uneasy relationship with the military, I can see how he wouldn't want another soldier on board.

 

However, if this had been a story from the eighties, she would have boarded at the last moment. He wouldn't be able to get her home again, and would have eventually come to respect her. Interesting how standards change.

 

His insulting Harry was because Harry was a bit of a boob.  I liked Harry, shame we didn't see him more.

 

Journey might not be the right kind of companion for him now, that's perhaps true.

 

Can we establish that Clara has no memory of her experiences in the Doctor's timestream?

[shapeshifter]

One word review: Yawn.

Is there any truth to the story that Terry Nation's estate stipulates that they have to use the daleks at least once per season, or else the BBC loses the rights? That might explain why they keep showing up even though they're the victim of diminishing returns (and not nearly as scary as they used to be.) Then again, they do seem to still be popular with a lot of fans, even if many of the rest of us are getting tired of them.

 

ETA: Or, y'know, I could just google the answer. Someone asked the same question on Reddit a few months ago, but the consensus was that it's speculation that has never been confirmed.

Unless the stipulation had a screen time requirement, they could just have them open the Tardis door to a Dalek and then slam the door before it could finish uttering its first "Exterminate!" As a season long running joke, it could be fun--and, IMO, much more entertaining that this episode.

The exploration of moral ambiguity in this episode had potential.

[cambridgeguy]

 

Another question: why are there still Daleks?  I thought that the War Doctor's original use of the destruction device killed all Time Lords and all Daleks thus ending the war (which assumes that all Daleks were attacking Gallifrey at that time) and that the Doctors' do-over just froze Gallifrey (saving the Time Lords) which made it disappear and caused all the Daleks to shoot each other.  So why are there still Daleks around - unless there's some Dalek-making home planet, or unless this rebellion takes place in an earlier time?

I have no idea if this is actually true but my impression is that the Doctor never destroyed Gallifrey - that was a false memory to cover his true actions as he needed that guilt for his future selves to set the stage for freezing Gallifrey in the first place.  All the Daleks we've seen in the new series are survivors of that last day, not Daleks from before the Time War started.

 

Perhaps he rejects soldiers because his own natural inclination (in this incarnation, anyway) is too similar to a typical soldier's instinct and he wants a counterpoint instead?  His reaction to the first soldier getting killed is very military (no use crying over a dead man, so move on and save everyone who's left) and that type of coldness can lead to a dark place.

[HauntedBathroom]

That was a cracking episode! 'I'm his carer', 'That's right, she cares so I don't have to' made me howl.

 

Poor old Sawbones Hex must be stewing, this is how he wanted to play the Doctor, but he was hamstrung by bad writing and a god awful costume. I'm really liking Capaldi and Moffatt's take on the Doctor, his reaction to the soldier about to be killed was striking.

 

Another question: why are there still Daleks?  I thought that the War Doctor's original use of the destruction device killed all Time Lords and all Daleks thus ending the war (which assumes that all Daleks were attacking Gallifrey at that time) and that the Doctors' do-over just froze Gallifrey (saving the Time Lords) which made it disappear and caused all the Daleks to shoot each other.  So why are there still Daleks around - unless there's some Dalek-making home planet, or unless this rebellion takes place in an earlier time?

 

The Daleks returned as a full time force in the universe in season 5's Victory of the Daleks, that was the whole point of the episode. Obviously since then they've had a chance to rethink their make over, and decided to dump the fat arse look.

Edited August 31, 2014 by HauntedBathroom

[Llywela]

From memory, he was always pretty down on Harry. Always insulting him and such. But that's getting away from the topic. The Doctor has always had an uneasy relationship with the military, I can see how he wouldn't want another soldier on board.

 

However, if this had been a story from the eighties, she would have boarded at the last moment. He wouldn't be able to get her home again, and would have eventually come to respect her. Interesting how standards change.

The Doctor enjoyed making fun of Harry for being a bit of a bumbler but was fond of him anyway; it was part of their dynamic. Not quite the same thing as being down on him for being military. Not least because Harry wasn't especially military in outlook.

 

And aye indeed about the differing approaches in different eras.

[Jac]

I enjoyed this episode.

I might be in the minority but I think that 12 will end up becoming MY Doctor. I like the moral ambiguity that is beginning to come through and I like Capaldi in the role. I can see him developing in some really interesting ways. I don't have quite the same level of hatred that exists for Moffatt in much of the fandom, although I think he has a serious problem with women and race that needs to be addressed. I hope that Moffatt doesn't end up fucking things up.

[random chance]

Really, this was dire.  The writing was a mess, the characters uninteresting, and the Daleks just plain boring.  And I wish Moffet would drop the woman-slaps-man (usually the Doctor) schtick.  IT ISN'T AMUSING.

 

Okay, sorry.  I know I'm sounding like a cranky old geezer on a rant. (Probably because I am a cranky old geezer on a rant.)  I guess you can tell I'm disappointed.  Wasn't even all that crazy about Capaldi this time around.

I'm right there with you, I was only marginally interested in anything that happened. I hate the Daleks the same way that I hated that Christmas commercial for K-Mart where they would just scream THE LIGHTS THE LIGHTS THE LIGHTS for a solid minute. It's not the kind of hate I enjoy, it's the kind where I hit the mute button until it's over. While rolling my eyes.

I have trouble understanding PC but even worse, I don't like his doctor. And I feel bad that I don't like him, so it's dislike topped off with heavy guilt. He seems very meh about the whole thing, he appears to be breathing hard a lot or at least, I notice his breathing, and he doesn't have much inflection in his voice. A lot of the time I just want to urge him to take a nap because he seems so weary.

And Clara. She was never that interesting in the first place even back when she was a mystery wrapped in a plot device inside an arc, but now she's just there. Just some 20-something pretty girl. That's her character, "20-something pretty girl."

Plus it looks like another season where the Doctor moralizes at me about who's good and who's evil. Just get out of my face with that, eh?