The Curious Case Of Natalia Grace

[shelley1234]

Natalia is a better person that I would be if I was her.  The grace and forgiveness she has shown to Michael is not somethign I think I could do.  

I wonder if her feelings changed once she will have watched the episodes.   And how he is still manipulating and lying to discount his part in what happened to her.  How his lawyer was painting Natalia as the problem over and over again.  That she was violent.  That she was overly sexual. That she was manipulative.  Michael's lawyer works for him, so he is working on his behalf.  

I hope Natalia continue to find peace and the answers she seeks.  

Edited January 4 by shelley1234
Grammar

[TattleTeeny]

I hate Michael with a fury, but I do not think he's fabricating that he too was abused at the hands and whims of Kristine (and not that I know, of course, but I believed him that he never sexually abused Natalia). That said, it absolves him not at all -- just maybe explains him a little bit. But he was an adult and she was a vulnerable child and nothing she did warranted what they did. They can rot in hell. And how dare he drive away so carefree and relieved, as if he's off the morality hook simply because she benevolently chose to forgive him.

Edited January 5 by TattleTeeny

[sskrill]

Good lord, I had to take this all in before even thinking about posting.  And now .. my brain is tired. 

I don't like Michael but I don't remember Natalia stating he ever abused her - just that he never protected her from Kristine.

I have something - not quite sympathy - but something, for Michael.  I do believe he was also a victim of Kristine.  The Michael from part 1 seems to be devolving with each set of interviews.  I'm wondering if he is also autistic?  I remember in part 1 Kristine making a comment about whether he was taking his meds.  I feel like either he has gone off meds he really needs, or his doctor has not found the correct cocktail yet. If he's not autistic he definitely has some form of mental illness - he definitely seems manic and unstable at times, but I do feel like if Michael had been married to literally almost anyone else, this story would have ended differently.  

It will be interesting to see if he ever gets to re-establish a relationship with his other sons.  Kids like that often start to see the insanity once they hit adulthood, usually because they start to seriously date someone, and no doubt Kristine will try to manipulate the fuck out of the boys as soon as they find those girls.  Maybe that will work in Michael's favor and will bring him some peace and mental stability.

I don't trust Mr Preacher Man as far as I can throw him.  His meltdown over h-e double-hockey-sticks was ridiculous. They're just words you fucking pansy. Maybe focus on the giant abused elephant in the room rather than a couple of random letters?

[TattleTeeny]

5 minutes ago, sskrill said:

I have something - not quite sympathy - but something, for Michael. 

I despise him but I totally get this. Something likely happened to make him this way and so I guess I do feel for the person he was -- whoever and whatever that may have been, maybe even an innocent little kid -- before he was the person we see now. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't kind of like to punch Now-Michael right in the chops, though. 

Edited January 5 by TattleTeeny

[MagicEyes]

I was hoping this would give us some answers to some big questions, but it was mostly useless. So many horrible people who failed Natalia in so many ways--and now that list includes Michael's lawyer (hate him!) and probably the Mans family. And the former neighbor. 😡 I missed something about why the family that seemed so perfect couldn't adopt her. Also I want an explanation for why her adoption by the Barnetts happened so quickly. It's all very suspicious.

I think everything that comes out of Michael's mouth is a lie, which in a way makes things easier because we don't have to wonder whether it's true or not. Has he ever said anything that turned out to be true? 

I hope Natalia gets therapy and frees herself from all of the opportunists and psychopaths who surround her. The real truth of her past is more horrifying than we'll ever know. 

[Valmarmar]

 

I feel like I did at the first of this: This is all a hoax.

Edited January 5 by Valmarmar
I deleted what people think was rude of me to express.

[nilyank]

45 minutes ago, MagicEyes said:

I missed something about why the family that seemed so perfect couldn't adopt her.

They mentioned that they were in contact with the Ciccone family for months and they were spending all those holidays with Natalia. They said sometime after the Christmas visit, someone reported the Ciccones to Child Services and the Ciccones blamed the couple that wanted to adopt her and  shut down their adoptions plan for Natalia.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Starting with why Natalia's mother put her in an orphanage. Could she not take care of a child with a disability, or was she taken away from her mother.

There are a lot of children in Ukrainian orphanages. It's a fairly poor country with a lot of social issues that make it difficult to raise children. Many of the children in orphanages have living parents who place them there because they can't afford to raise them, even at a basic level (so they aren't "orphans" in the traditional sense of the word). A child like Natalia, with severe health issues, would almost certainly get better care in an orphanage than she would if she remained with her mother (or even if she had two parents). 

It's not uncommon for the children who are adopted from the Ukraine to have issues; the trauma of separation from birth parents, possible prenatal exposure to alcohol (a big issue in Ukraine), early life in overcrowded and under resourced congregate care facilities. Children from many countries experience these same issues, including children adopted from foster care in the US, so this isn't to imply that Ukraine is worse than other countries. But it's a pretty bleak early life for these children, even in the facilities that have caring workers and some resources to provide for them.

Quote

Then the first family that adopted her, the Ciccones, gave her the middle name of Lourdes, which is Madonna's daughter's name. I wonder if they were planning some kind of con, presenting her as a relative of Madonna.

I doubt it. Madonna is a Ciccone but Lourdes is a Leon. I assumed that her middle name was a reference to the French town of Lourdes, which is considered a holy city by many Christians and the site of many miracles (if you believe in that sort of thing).

Quote

I despise him but I totally get this. Something likely happened to make him this way and so I guess I do feel for the person he was -- whoever and whatever that may have been, maybe even an innocent little kid -- before he was the person we see now. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't kind of like to punch Now-Michael right in the chops, though. 

But by that logic, something happened to make Kristine the way she is too. Most people who abuse children were themselves abused in childhood. I mean, I guess everyone deserves empathy, and I try, but ...

Edited January 5 by Elizzikra

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Second...it is absolutely shocking that Kristine is not in prison for her crimes against a child.

She still could be. The initial charges against her were dropped but I think they can be refiled and now, after all this has come out, there is stronger evidence against her than there was initially.

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

But by that logic, something happened to make Kristine the way she is too. Most people who abuse children were themselves abused in childhood. I mean, I guess everyone deserves empathy, and I try, but ...

Sure. But we didn’t get to see Kristine’s demeanor or whatever like we did with Michael. He seems like a beaten down, insecure, weak, deluded, and terrified person. I don’t suspect that’s what Kristine would give off had we seen her like we did him (well, maybe deluded). But again, I don’t feel empathy for the current version of Michael, just the version before that that became damaged enough to do all these garbage things to a small, defenseless child. 

Edited January 5 by TattleTeeny

[Straycat80]

I didn’t believe anything Michael had to say. He lied about so many things in this doc. and the first doc. too. There was a show called Crimefeed after this doc. with Nancy Grace and some other legal analysts and they also agreed that Michael was acting and loving the camera. He’s a pathetic excuse of a human being. 
 

[renatae]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:42 AM, Annber03 said:

I get that defense lawyers have a tough job trying to come up with a good defense for their client, especially in a case like this...but to claim that Natalia needed to take responsibility for her actions was...truly something. SHE WAS A MINOR CHILD, FOR GOD'S SAKES. She was eight or nine years old when all this crap went down.

I was aghast at this also. Truly a ridiculous statement. And wasn't he the one who said something like "Wherever Natalia goes, there is chaos"?

[MMEButterfly]

For those who have finished the series, what are your thoughts about the call from the Mans family at the end?

[Gemma Violet]

21 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

For those who have finished the series, what are your thoughts about the call from the Mans family at the end?

I haven't finished watching it, but I read online what the Manns said at the end.  One possibility I've thought of is perhaps Natalia told them she was leaving their religion for another religion or maybe that her faith was no longer as strong as before.  As uber-religious as that guy seems to be, that would be enough for him to declare her full of demons or something.  

[MMEButterfly]

38 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

I haven't finished watching it, but I read online what the Manns said at the end.  One possibility I've thought of is perhaps Natalia told them she was leaving their religion for another religion or maybe that her faith was no longer as strong as before.  As uber-religious as that guy seems to be, that would be enough for him to declare her full of demons or something.  

I wondered that too. I live only 30 miles from Lafayette so I intend to learn more about the Manns. I'm curious because I'm completely sympathetic with Natalia Grace. She was just a little damaged girl when she went to them at first. 

[Superb Owl]

This story has me so fascinated that I did what I never thought I'd do; I created a TikTok account.

Natalia has her own Tiktok account (recently created); so do the Mans.

It appears that on 12/29/23, Natalia made her first post about how 2024 was going to be incredible. That was followed by a comment from the Mans which said: "I love you so much, my forever baby"; Natalia replied "I love you too".

The timeline, as far as what I can piece together, is that Natalia was formally adopted by the Mans in June '23 (after living with them for I believe 10 years), and that phone call was placed in mid-December. 

While I don't doubt that Natalia suffered severe trauma in her first 10 years of life, and exhibited inappropriate behavior at times as a result, I just can't fathom what could have changed in the 10+ years the Mans have cared for her, and a mere 6 months after her adoption, to trigger a phone call like the one we heard. And going by the Tiktok exchange, if there was anything truly difficult happening a few weeks back from that, it's all patched up by now????

So very many questions. Although I'm not a huge fan of  religion in general, and in particular the rabid, rigid christianity that the Mans seemed to follow, they did seem to care for her a great deal and didn't try to whitewash past behavior of hers. I guess you just never know with "reality tv", even one that presents itself as a documentary, what is exaggerated/staged/edited to be more dramatic and what the actual truth is (although I think there's plenty of reason to believe, from all sources, that the Barnetts are just garbage people).

I hope we're not kept in suspense until the inevitable Season 3, although I'm sure the producers would prefer it that way.

 

 

Edited January 6 by Superb Owl

[Elizzikra]

Some response from Kristina: https://www.eonline.com/news/1392459/natalia-graces-adoptive-mom-kristine-barnett-breaks-her-silence-on-explosive-docuseries

What Kristina ignores completely is that medical testing has shown that Natalia was legally a child when they abandoned her in Lafayette. Michael was found not-guilty and charges were dropped against Kristina ONLY because no discussion was permitted of Natalia's age. I can't believe a single word she says because she can't even acknowledge that Natalia is the age (or close to the age) she was said to be at the time of her adoption, and therefore was a child at the time of her abandonment.

[Straycat80]

@Superb Owl interesting about the tik Tok exchange between Natalia and the Man’s. I’m starting to wonder if they’re putting on act for another TV series and money.  

[TattleTeeny]

I just hope the Manses were just feeling overwhelmed when they made that call and realize that Natalia, for the foreseeable future, may have episodes or periods of drama and discontent and maybe even "crazy" behavior. I doubt someone can merely snap out of half a lifetime of mistreatment, no matter how grateful and comfortable and loved she may comparatively feel. Add in fame/notoriety, social media, documentarians, and maybe scary realizations that come to light through therapy -- that's a lot for someone who still is, in many ways, a scared child.

Edited January 7 by TattleTeeny

[Stevie Nicks]

I watched the first season of this mess, and hopefully I'll get to watch the second one this week, but one question I have from the first season is, is that sketchy strip mall "adoption agency" still in business, and if so, why haven't they been investigated? This case is such a clusterfuck. 

[shelley1234]

22 hours ago, MMEButterfly said:

For those who have finished the series, what are your thoughts about the call from the Mans family at the end?

I think it is 100% about money.  Money Natalia was paid to be part of the documentary.  Money from the gofundme they set up for Natalia.  They want that money.  Grifters gonna grift.  

[shelley1234]

Also, one more comment about Michael's slimeball of a lawyer.   He seemed so much more like he was Kristine's lawyer.  Spinning Kristine's dolling up Natalia as an innocent bonding between mother and child.   Basically calling a 8 year old child a dirty, dirty whore.  Saying that whenever Natalia goes, chaos follows as a way to blame her for bringing on her own abuse. 

You'd think as Michael's attorney he would turn his attention to attacking Kristine and the abuse she inflicted on Michael and Natalia.  But nah, he has little to no interest in that.  Interesting choice when Michael keeps saying they both have the same monster, but Michael's attorney keeps emphasizing the monster in Natalia. 

Also, I found on a reddit thread that he was suspended for 6 months in 2014 and also disciplined in 2007 for misconduct.  So he seems like the best and most awesome attorney ever.  

[Cobb Salad]

1 hour ago, shelley1234 said:

I think it is 100% about money.  Money Natalia was paid to be part of the documentary.  Money from the gofundme they set up for Natalia.  They want that money.  Grifters gonna grift.  

I agree, that call at the end was a money grab.   I came across another article during the week (I don’t remember where offhand) and it mentioned that go fund me from months ago and how little it raised.  

56 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

You'd think as Michael's attorney he would turn his attention to attacking Kristine and the abuse she inflicted on Michael and Natalia.  But nah, he has little to no interest in that.  Interesting choice when Michael keeps saying they both have the same monster, but Michael's attorney keeps emphasizing the monster in Natalia. 

I cringed every time that lawyer came on screen.  I get that he’s paid to defend his client Michael but why in the world did the show give him the opportunity to try to discredit Natalia?  I think the legal analysis should have been limited to the disinterested lawyer Beth Karas.  She seemed to have cut and dry comments about what happened here.  According to her intro she’s been following this case since it hit the news so I thought she offered valuable insight.  Also, where was Natalia’s lawyer? 

[Gigi G3]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:05 PM, Valmarmar said:

 

I feel like I did at the first of this: This is all a hoax.

I wasn't so sure but now I agree with this. If not a complete hoax, the story has giant holes in it and is confusingly told with many details left out. 

[Barbarblacksheep]

Interesting article in Slate about the show:

https://slate.com/culture/2024/01/natalia-grace-kristine-barnett-tv-show-twist-ending.html

to sum up: the article basically states that the producers engaged in highly unethical practices in the course of making both seasons of this show. It's a good read IMO.

[LexieLily]

Natalia Grace Launches GoFundMe to Buy House, Says She Might Need Multiple Surgeries.

[ALittleShelfish]

Ahhh she "can't say more" due to "an agreement signed with ID".... Cue Season 3.

[borealis]

On 1/7/2024 at 1:17 PM, shelley1234 said:

Also, one more comment about Michael's slimeball of a lawyer.   He seemed so much more like he was Kristine's lawyer.  Spinning Kristine's dolling up Natalia as an innocent bonding between mother and child.   Basically calling a 8 year old child a dirty, dirty whore.  Saying that whenever Natalia goes, chaos follows as a way to blame her for bringing on her own abuse. 

You'd think as Michael's attorney he would turn his attention to attacking Kristine and the abuse she inflicted on Michael and Natalia.  But nah, he has little to no interest in that.  Interesting choice when Michael keeps saying they both have the same monster, but Michael's attorney keeps emphasizing the monster in Natalia. 

Also, I found on a reddit thread that he was suspended for 6 months in 2014 and also disciplined in 2007 for misconduct.  So he seems like the best and most awesome attorney ever.  

Yeah, that was weird! I thought I had missed that he was also Kristine's lawyer, it made NO sense whatsoever for him to be painting Natalia as a liar trying to besmirch Kristine. All the while Michael himself is talking shit about Kristine. I was so confused! lol This show was just full of weirdos!! lol Even the Manses! They seem overall good for Natalia herself, but I don't doubt that they work the system.

 

[babyhouseman]

Natalia moved out? Who's going to adopt her now?

I wonder if she's had any contact with the Little People Association? The LPA is very active according to the Roloff show. I don't know what services they could provide.

[J80134]

Interesting that Michael says his boys were afraid he'd come kill them so they kept knives under the bed and stayed awake all night. Gee, dumbass, you think fear for her life is why Natalia (supposedly) did the same? 

[bravofan27]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't really believe much of any of them, including Natalia. There is something unlikeable about her as well-- she just seems really shady and I think the whole lot of them are scam artists that were  (or now are) running some sort of con. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, bravofan27 said:

she just seems really shady and I think the whole lot of them are scam artists that were  (or now are) running some sort of con. 

What exactly was the con an eight-year old child was running on two lunatics? 

[Elizzikra]

12 hours ago, bravofan27 said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't really believe much of any of them, including Natalia. There is something unlikeable about her as well-- she just seems really shady and I think the whole lot of them are scam artists that were  (or now are) running some sort of con. 

In fairness, Natalia Grace had a LOT happen to her. I imagine some of her coping and survival skills might have made her less pleasant to be around that she could have been otherwise. 

[babyhouseman]

latest

Mrs. Mans, the last adoptive mothers, says everything is great.

[Scarlett45]

It was suggested I watch this so I’m sitting down now. I appreciate your comments here. 
 

 

[Annber03]

Feel free to share your thoughts as you work your way through this. You are in for a ride!

[Scarlett45]

22 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Feel free to share your thoughts as you work your way through this. You are in for a ride!

In episode 1, based on Natalia’s face in comparison to the other 6yrs old (who’s now 14) with the same type of dwarfism, Natalia looks older than 6, not an adult. Even a “baby faced adult”( I looked 14 in the face for years). Natalia’s vocabulary and cadence of speaking seems advanced for a 6yrs old who’s learning English as a second language. I know children learn languages very quickly, but something about the way Michael describes about what she says feels off to me. 
 

Michael seems slimy. In episode 2, no establishment would ask a 6yrs old to sign their own release form! (The birthday outing to milk the cows) Michael is trying to sell snake oil. And no child would be with adults in an adult wing of an adult psychiatric hospital, she’d have been in a child’s unit at least. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

On 1/8/2024 at 11:50 AM, Barbarblacksheep said:

Interesting article in Slate about the show:

https://slate.com/culture/2024/01/natalia-grace-kristine-barnett-tv-show-twist-ending.html

to sum up: the article basically states that the producers engaged in highly unethical practices in the course of making both seasons of this show. It's a good read IMO.

Interesting article, especially the last paragraph where the last adoptive father or guardian (Mans) is now saying Natalia isn't truthful, and other witnesses confirm some of the allegations about her behavior that's concerning.    

I believe nothing the bio mother says, she has lied and abandoned her daughter, and I think she lies about everything.  

Edited January 14 by CrazyInAlabama

[Scarlett45]

I am up to Episode 4 Season 1, and while I think it’s true Natalia had behavioral issues (likely due to her early childhood neglect at the orphanage and the abuse/neglect she experienced at the hands of the Barnetts), but I also believe that Michael is a total liar, Kristine was abusive and that this girl was an easy target for people that would seek to abuse and mistreat her because of her disability and age. I think they thought they were adopting a cute puppy and when the puppy misbehaved they could get rid of it. 
 

I also think they were really stupid to discuss all of this on social media. 

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I also think they were really stupid to discuss all of this on social media. 

My thoughts anytime I see a story involving people who are suspects for criminal behavior :p. It is amazing how so many people seem to forget rule #1 of getting away with a crime, which is to keep your damn mouth shut. 

[Scarlett45]

I’m just starting Episode 6 of Season 1, and I want to know what Kristine cheating on her husband has to do with abuse of Natalia? Michael crying about not being able to stand up to her? This is reading very much “call a woman a whore” if you don’t like what she’s doing (justified or not). 
 

I will continue watching. 

[Cobb Salad]

47 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I’m just starting Episode 6 of Season 1, and I want to know what Kristine cheating on her husband has to do with abuse of Natalia? Michael crying about not being able to stand up to her? This is reading very much “call a woman a whore” if you don’t like what she’s doing (justified or not). 

Not that it had anything to do with the story about Natalia I was wondering through all of this what kind of marriage they had before they adopted her.  IIRC back during the episodes aired last May I think Michael accused Natalia of ruining or breaking up his marriage.  At the time I had a hard time believing that.   After this last series of episodes it’s obvious that it was because Kristine went nuclear on Michael.  

Edited January 14 by Cobb Salad

[Scarlett45]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:52 PM, Mswldflwr said:

And she was supposedly 9 when they dumped her in that first apartment?  She was successful at living alone whereas I wouldn't think a 9-year-old would even make it through a night or two without completely wigging.

 

I know there are cases of 9yrs olds being pretty self sufficient when they have had to be. Caring for baby siblings, making meals (microwave or stove with a step stool), doing laundry etc when they have been left as the caregiver to younger siblings (usually due to parental neglect). I don’t know how Natalia FELT in the situation (she might have been absolutely terrified) but I am not surprised she kept herself alive. Who knows what her life in the orphanage was like before she came to the USA. Also a lot of the neighbors said she was always around visiting them. 

[Superb Owl]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I know there are cases of 9yrs olds being pretty self sufficient when they have had to be. Caring for baby siblings, making meals (microwave or stove with a step stool), doing laundry etc when they have been left as the caregiver to younger siblings (usually due to parental neglect). I don’t know how Natalia FELT in the situation (she might have been absolutely terrified) but I am not surprised she kept herself alive. Who knows what her life in the orphanage was like before she came to the USA. Also a lot of the neighbors said she was always around visiting them. 

I agree with this (I was pretty self-sufficient at 9 y.o. myself; both my parents worked at the business they owned and were gone 12-15 hours a day); but IIRC, nothing was modified or adapted for her height--kitchen counters, cooking areas, etc.) so I'm not sure how she adapted to that aspect, let alone get up & down both the inside stairs and the steps leading up to the apartment house. Most apartments don't have washers or dryers; how did she keep her clothes clean? Or herself, could she get in & out of a bathtub?

It really does boggle the mind and there's no doubt she had to learn survival skills and grow up FAST, so those who make comments about her "not being sweet and innocent" may consider how "sweet and innocent" a child may be after being shuffled around an orphanage, a number of foster homes, emotionally abused, and finally abandoned in an apartment at age 9. Add in the factor that she very well could have been sexually abused (at the very least, at the orphanage if not beyond that) and yeah, there's some major damage there. I truly hope she has had or is getting therapy. 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Superb Owl said:

I agree with this (I was pretty self-sufficient at 9 y.o. myself; both my parents worked at the business they owned and were gone 12-15 hours a day); but IIRC, nothing was modified or adapted for her height--kitchen counters, cooking areas, etc.) so I'm not sure how she adapted to that aspect, let alone get up & down both the inside stairs and the steps leading up to the apartment house. Most apartments don't have washers or dryers; how did she keep her clothes clean? Or herself, could she get in & out of a bathtub?

That’s why I mention step stools that a typical 9yrs old would use- I could imagine Natalia would’ve used what she had (a chair to step stool, items to reach etc). 
 

Many of the neighbors in season 1 commented that she often wasn’t clean, well that would explain it. Even if she wanted to wash herself & wear clean clothes, logistically getting in and out of the bath may have been dangerous. Also many kids have to adjust to adult bathing habits and hygenine needs during puberty. The stereotype that middle schoolers are smelly isn’t because most of them just don’t care or have caregivers, but those hormones kick in and it’s often an adjustment to bathing daily and using deodorant, assuming someone brought her those things. 

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, Cobb Salad said:

Not that it had anything to do with the story about Natalia I was wondering through all of this what kind of marriage they had before they adopted her.  IIRC back during the episodes aired last May I think Michael accused Natalia of ruining or breaking up his marriage.  At the time I had a hard time believing that.   After this last series of episodes it’s obvious that it was because Kristine went nuclear on Michael.  

I remember in the first documentary, Michael made a big to do about how happy he and Kristine had been together before Natalia came along, that he was getting her flowers to honor each year they'd been married, all that sort of thing...

...and then by the end he's calling her every single name in the book and talking about how abusive and controlling and manipulative she was, in a way that indicates that she didn't JUST become that way after Natalia came along. It was just further proof that his bragging on the nice life and the whole "happy family" description at the beginning was nothing more than a show. Talk about a total 180. 

[Scarlett45]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:42 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

Interesting article, especially the last paragraph where the last adoptive father or guardian (Mans) is now saying Natalia isn't truthful, and other witnesses confirm some of the allegations about her behavior that's concerning.    

I believe nothing the bio mother says, she has lied and abandoned her daughter, and I think she lies about everything.  

I can believe that Natalia has lied about things, I can also believe that the Manns expect her to adhere to their religious beliefs to live in their house (which is their right- not disputing that), I can also believe that Natalia wants her freedom and might not want to live by the Manns rules. 
 

However as of Season 2 Episode 2 I firmly believe that Natalia was abused and neglected by the Barnetts, and probably previous caregivers, and will carry scars from that the rest of her life. I can also believe that makes her a hard person to trust or have a relationship with.
 

Not surprised at all that the money Jacob earned as child prodigy is gone. 

 

I do appreciate having the perspectives of other adults with dwarfism in the documentary. How did the Barnetts not think that Natalia was going to need a lot of resources towards her medical care??!!!

[gesundheit]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:50 PM, shelley1234 said:

Natalia is a better person that I would be if I was her.  The grace and forgiveness she has shown to Michael is not somethign I think I could do.  

I wonder if her feelings changed once she will have watched the episodes.   And how he is still manipulating and lying to discount his part in what happened to her.  How his lawyer was painting Natalia as the problem over and over again.  That she was violent.  That she was overly sexual. That she was manipulative.  Michael's lawyer works for him, so he is working on his behalf.  

I hope Natalia continue to find peace and the answers she seeks.  

And maybe she was! Maybe she did have weird sexual obsessions and maybe she did physically act out! It would make sense with her history. But none of it changes the caregiver culpability. That's the saddest part, is that there's this subtext that if Natalia did even a handful of the things they've accused her of, it justifies the abuse in some way. It doesn't matter!

On 1/4/2024 at 8:47 PM, MagicEyes said:

Also I want an explanation for why her adoption by the Barnetts happened so quickly. It's all very suspicious.

I think everything that comes out of Michael's mouth is a lie, which in a way makes things easier because we don't have to wonder whether it's true or not. Has he ever said anything that turned out to be true? 

 

I think your second paragraph here is probably the answer to the first! They mentioned in the second season at some point that the Ciccones didn't legally relinquish their ties to Natalia until about 6 months after the Barnetts picked her up. It wasn't quite the quickie adoption Michael tried to make it sound like.

I can't stop thinking about Michael saying in season one that this mental institution just gave her back to them, insisting there was nothing they could do and that she was a danger. As if. 

On 1/7/2024 at 2:17 PM, shelley1234 said:

Also, one more comment about Michael's slimeball of a lawyer.   He seemed so much more like he was Kristine's lawyer.  Spinning Kristine's dolling up Natalia as an innocent bonding between mother and child.   Basically calling a 8 year old child a dirty, dirty whore.  Saying that whenever Natalia goes, chaos follows as a way to blame her for bringing on her own abuse. 

You'd think as Michael's attorney he would turn his attention to attacking Kristine and the abuse she inflicted on Michael and Natalia.  But nah, he has little to no interest in that.  Interesting choice when Michael keeps saying they both have the same monster, but Michael's attorney keeps emphasizing the monster in Natalia. 

Also, I found on a reddit thread that he was suspended for 6 months in 2014 and also disciplined in 2007 for misconduct.  So he seems like the best and most awesome attorney ever.  

In a way he is also Kristine's lawyer, since acknowledgment of Kristine's abuse implicates Michael's complicity, so the (legal strategy) story is that it didn't happen, that Natalia was an unmanageable presence, and Michael just did the best he could in impossible circumstances. 

And yes, absolutely a slimeball! 

I think the awful apartment neighbor also got pretty cruelly exploited by this documentary. I have no doubt they didn't disclose to her that there is definitive proof Natalia was a child at that time, and so of course her immediate reaction to a video clip of someone she'd known only as a creepy and problematic adult is going to be based on the long-held understanding of that person she's had for over a decade. If she was given all the information and had time to process it before that, then I stand corrected, but considering this show's approach I highly doubt it.

This was such a deeply unethical documentary that I feel guilty for watching it, but now I'm just sucked in and will continue following the story. I'm still mystified as to why she can't get her legal age changed back? That has to be in the works for inevitable civil action. I can't believe Michael is still resting on "but she didn't grow at all in the years she lived with us" -- she has dwarfism! She didn't grow in height but she obviously grew in other ways. And he'd seen her once she reached adulthood, that physical change is not something that happens between 22 and 33! (Don't know why I'm looking for logic from that man.)

[Realitystarr]

On 6/4/2023 at 11:41 AM, Whimsy said:

I think they did that because for the first half of the entire docuseries they were trying to be “tricky” with the information so we all would believe she WAS an adult at first. I know that for the first 3 hours I was being persuaded into thinking there was something fishy with NATALIA based on the way the information was being portrayed to us. I’m actually pretty mad they did it this way because there are still people over on Reddit (and I’m sure other places) who are still saying she was an adult.  I just felt that was a disservice to Natalia. 

Yes it really irks me all the people after watching the 12 episodes still think she's an adult and not someone who has hard a horrific life from an orphanage and  abused emotionally, CSA, and physically not to mention demonized as a sociopath and killer.

That one little couple did a great job proving she was a child with their photo of her visiting with her baby tooth missing and how she got  new ones in another photo combined with the good dentist who confirmed that Kristine thought Natalia was older and he thought she might be too but then her baby teeth xrays proved that she was indeed a child who could be between 6-9 at most.

 

 

[Realitystarr]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:32 AM, TattleTeeny said:

A few days after watching this and a lot of the WTFery has calmed down. But now I just want to cry for her, man. She must have been so scared just left in an apartment like that.

Not  to mention the fact that people are so  obsessed with her age and after all the evidence with 12 episodes still think she's  an  adult  and care more about that then the fact she was physically pummeled many time by Kristine per Micheal's retelling,  kicked down the stairs by Jacob and made to stand facing a wall for hours while defecating on herself, and this is just the stuff  they have revealed.

Yea she's a little off and doesnt' remember  things or explains herself well because she's lived a lifetime of sadistic sexual and physical abuse and manages it probably from blocking out so many things that truth and lies are convoluted for her. 

 

I feel so bad for what she's been through.