S09.E20: Reunion Part 2

[Grneyedldy]

I'm hesitant to blame everything on the producers. While it's undeniable that the producers helped facilitate this trip, the condo in question is apparently Vicki's actual, real-life time-share, and that third bedroom didn't suddenly become structurally smaller in order to precipitate the drama that ensued. It was adequate for Vicki's son to use on previous occasions, and adequate for Vicki's brother on this trip. Granted, a couple needs more space than a single occupant, but still...

Ok this is how I imagined it went down.......

Production (to Vicki): Hey why don't you invite Shannon and David to PV? They never get away without the kids and it looks like they are having marital problems and could use a vacation. We also think Shannon could use a good friend on the show that she can trust.

Vicki: Sure, they could get another timeshare in the same complex or maybe a hotel room. I'll take them to Andeles.

Production: It would make for better tv, if they stayed with you. You know how it works Vicki. You're an old pro.

Vicki: Yeah, but I don't have any room. My brother, his girlfriend and Michael will be there.

Production: C'mon Vicki, you could make room, couldn't you? It would also be easier for us, not having to film in another location.

Vicki: Well I guess I could have Michael sleep on the couch, but Shannon and David are not going to want to stay in that little room.

Production: Don't tell them the room is small when you invite them. Just tell them you have plenty of room and would love for them to stay with you.

Vicki: Okay, but I'm sure they are used to staying in fancy schmancy places and they're not going to want to stay here.

Production: it's only for 3 days. This is for the show, think how funny it will be when they see the room. We need you to talk them into staying. Don't take no for an answer. It'll make for great tv, trust us.

[zoeysmom]

Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I guess I just take issue with declaring oneself a psychologist, then commenting that Tamara most likely has a personality disorder, and continuing to trash her. It seems like if psychologists want to "veg out", and these shows are their "down time" -- then why bring their professional opinions into the mix? Anyway....

 

Bottom line is that I am starting to feel sympathy for Tamara. I feel like her Real Housewives check is the only true money she makes, and clearly Bravo has rewarded her financially FOR being a shit-stirrer; as such, I can see where she may be thinking, "shit, I gotta stir shit to freaking EAT and have a roof over my head." Again, I am not excusing everything she has done, but I am developing some compassion for her -- the old mighty dollar has her stuck betweena rock and a hard place. And yes, she could have made better decisions in her life so she wouldn't have had to be on RHOC. But again, if she truly has a personality / chemical imbalance, terrible parenting, etc., etc., etc....maybe she wasn't capable of that in the same way a healthy person is. Just my opinion.....

I can see where Tamra could elicit the sympathy vote.  To me, the fact she treats other people so horribly to keep her orange and earn a living is why I can't excuse her behavior to others.  Jeana needed the money and  Alexis needed the money but Tamra only thought of Tamra.  Say the RHOC gods dump Tamra this week-do you think she will be able to survive without the RHOC money?  I think she will capitalize on the exposure and move forward.  Somewhere along the line she will give her version of "the truth".  Much like her friend Brandi their always seems to be an asterisk to their version. 

[Lady Grump]

Say the RHOC gods dump Tamra this week-do you think she will be able to survive without the RHOC money?  I think she will capitalize on the exposure and move forward.  Somewhere along the line she will give her version of "the truth".  Much like her friend Brandi their always seems to be an asterisk to their version.

Good question. Honestly, I don't think she'll be able to pull it together without true help -- and maybe that is why my sympathy is starting to grow for her. I think the second she gets dumped, Eddie will leave her and she will be up shits creek without a paddle. And as I sit here typing, maybe that is what is really bugging me -- Bravo's ability to make and break lives. More than that, their encouragement of these women to stir shit, and then when the public tires of that, they drop them like a bad habit. I feel like every housewife who gets fired should be given a large parting bonus, or something.....who knows. I guess I feel compassion for these obviously damaged women, who don't have enough sense (possibly chemical) to realize these shows are not a good thing to do,and then are dropped like a bad habit after having their mental health issues exploited for the network's gain.

 

WHICH, makes me now realize, at this very moment, that I have to stop supporting these shows and Bravo.

 

So, basically, at the end of the day, it's my bad for watching.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Lady Grump

[Scrambled Fog]

I appreciate the fact people have to earn a living. What I don't appreciate are people who blatantly disregard the rights of others; treat people with contempt and hostility; lie; manipulate and violate the physical and mental safety of others (Gretchen, Alexis, Shannon, and Lizzie are some of those who experienced these manipulations, violations, and everything else) in order to earn that living the way Tamra has.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Scrambled Fog

[Lady Grump]

iappreciate the fact people have to earn a living. What I don't appreciate are people who blatantly disregard the rights of others; treat their coworkers with contempt and hostility; lie; manipulate and violate the physical and mental safety of others (Gretchen, Alexis, Shannon and Lizzie) in order to earn that living the way Tamra has.

Fair enough -- but Bravo encourages said behavior. Besides, they ALL lie and mainpulate. All of them. They all get drunk, say and do stupid shit -- and Bravo encourages it. At the end of the day, for me, I'm just realizing (for real, today) that reality TV of this nature is deterimental to womankind. The mere nature of it is dangerous -- they present these shows as "reality" -- and though we all know they're mostly producer driven -- it's sometimes hard to separate the two. I've gotten to the point where I can't easily separate these women from how they are portrayed on TV. Moreover, come to think of it, these shows are just hour long re-inforcements of the bullshit patriarchal notion that women are catty, crazy and un-nuanced. And, on a personal level, as someone who deals with a lot of psychological baggage, it's starting to make me uncomfortable that they target the "damaged ones" the most.

 

I wish would Bravo market these types of shows like they do in the UK: call it "scripted reality", and admit that 95% of it is made up. It would be good for the show -- and good for women, in general.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Lady Grump

[Scrambled Fog]

Fair enough -- but Bravo encourages said behavior. Besides, they ALL lie and mainpulate. All of them. They all get drunk, say and do stupid shit -- and Bravo encourages it. At the end of the day, for me, I'm just realizing (for real, today) that reality TV of this nature is deterimental to womankind. The mere nature of it is dangerous -- they present these shows as "reality" -- and though we all know they're mostly producer driven -- it's sometimes hard to separate the two. I've gotten to the point where I can't easily separate these women from how they are portrayed on TV. Moreover, come to think of it, these shows are just hour long re-inforcements of the bullshit patriarchal notion that women are catty, crazy and un-nuanced. And, on a personal level, as someone who deals with a lot of psychological baggage, it's starting to make me uncomfortable that they target the "damaged ones" the most.

I wish would Bravo market these types of shows like they do in the UK: call it "scriped reality", and admit that 95% of it is made up. It would be good for the show -- and good for women, in general.

Yes! Excellent post!

Unfortunately, there are some housewives, like Tamra, who, in my humble opinion, are unable to separate their true selves from the "characters" they portray on the the show. One only needs to read the tweets between Tamra and her daughter to see that.

ETA: in other words, Tamra and her alleged "fictional" character are one in the same, IMO. There are no boundaries between her private life and her Bravo life.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Scrambled Fog

[Lady Grump]

Unfortunately, there are some housewives, like Tamra, who, in my humble opinion, are unable to separate their true selves from the " characters" they portray on the the show. One only needs to read the tweets between Tamra and her daughter to see that.

I don't pay attention to Twitter and Facebook, but if she is bad-mouthing herdaughter online -- yes, that is terrible. And, I bet, alcohol driven. Me thinks Tamra may have a drinking issue, as well. And, again, as someone who used to self-medicate with wine -- I have some sympathy. Stright up: she's in a tough spot. She needs true help -- but is stuck in the Bravo hampster wheel. Yes, she brought a lot of the bad will on herself; but I guess I just want to be the type of person who has compassion for that.

 

And yes, even traditional Heather-hater me, is starting to feel bad for Heather. Because she, too, clearly has a lot of insecurity issues (which, may be why she and Tamara are friends). So, begrudingly, I guess I have to start laying off Mrs. DuBrow, a bit, too. All her bullshit is clearly the product of a woman who was brought up to revere status and material wealth. And, in life, if something doesn't knock you on your ass -- early on -- to make you realize that you're a pretentious penis, then figuring that out on your own can be tough -- especially since we live in a society that worships money.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Lady Grump

[SFoster21]

I can't get too excited about this one way or another. I've read constant posts citing "producer-driven" behavior and "scripting" (so where's the secret?) -- and my opinion is that the text is worth examining exclusive of those criteria.

And the message of the text is that people are variable and various and everyone has foibles.

I don't conclude that all females are mental.

The bad behavior gets the ink and the attention, but there is often admirable behavior.

It's not all of a piece. And, generally, the arguments are silly and overblown. I can't conclude that anyone's mental health has been adversely affected by being on television.

Functioning adults must be assumed to have free agency.

"Bravo" is not a monolith; reality TV is on every channel. Men are behaving equally badly on many other shows. So it's not even aimed at women. It is what it is.

Edited September 7, 2014 by SFoster21

[Lady Grump]

"Bravo" is not a monolith; reality TV is on every channel. Men are behaving equally badly on many other shows. So it's not even aimed at women. It is what it is.

 

OK, so I will rephrase: I shoud stop watching ALL "candid" reality shows -- on every channel. For the "book worms" out there, I read an interesting book this weekend called : "Reality Bites Back". So interesting, and may change some people's "c'est la vie" attitude towards how women -- as compared to men -- are portrayed on these types of shows. http://www.realitybitesbackbook.com/

[DeeplyShallow]

Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I guess I just take issue with declaring oneself a psychologist, then commenting that Tamara most likely has a personality disorder, and continuing to trash her. It seems like if psychologists want to "veg out", and these shows are their "down time" -- then why bring their professional opinions into the mix? Anyway....

Bottom line is that I am starting to feel sympathy for Tamara. I feel like her Real Housewives check is the only true money she makes, and clearly Bravo has rewarded her financially FOR being a shit-stirrer; as such, I can see where she may be thinking, "shit, I gotta stir shit to freaking EAT and have a roof over my head." Again, I am not excusing everything she has done, but I am developing some compassion for her -- the old mighty dollar has her stuck betweena rock and a hard place. And yes, she could have made better decisions in her life so she wouldn't have had to be on RHOC. But again, if she truly has a personality / chemical imbalance, terrible parenting, etc., etc., etc....maybe she wasn't capable of that in the same way a healthy person is. Just my opinion.....

Sigh. Because I am human and I am entitled to my opinions on a tv show and reality show character that I watch for entertainment purposes. I only mentioned my profession because someone mentioned reading about personality disorders and had a questions and I thought I could clear them up; as well as give my own impression of what her issue is. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to jump down my throat and lump me in with the bad therapists you came across because I dared to have an opinion on Tamra that wasn't positive. Like the previous poster said upthread, how I am in a professional setting versus how I am when I comment on a tv show is completely different. While I am sorry that you had negative experiences with my colleagues, I can assure you that I have nothing but compassion and empathy for my clients and anyone with a mental illness. With Tamra, I have theories and I stand by them but I also believe that she has the mental capacity to make decisions for which she can be held accountable.

I don't think that someone should be held to a different standard on here based on their profession. Would you have reacted had I not disclosed this information about myself? I doubt you would have and I don't appreciate the scolding.

ETA: I stand by TRASHRA because that's what she is- trash. Anyone who gleefully plans/participates in the attempted rape of another is a disgusting piece of shit and I don't care what her damage is. And that is based on my work with countless trauma survivors- I have no tolerance for assholes like Tamra.

Edited September 7, 2014 by DeeplyShallow

[Scrambled Fog]

I don't pay attention to Twitter and Facebook, but if she is bad-mouthing herdaughter online -- yes, that is terrible. And, I bet, alcohol driven. Me thinks Tamra may have a drinking issue, as well. And, again, as someone who used to self-medicate with wine -- I have some sympathy. Stright up: she's in a tough spot. She needs true help -- but is stuck in the Bravo hampster wheel. Yes, she brought a lot of the bad will on herself; but I guess I just want to be the type of person who has compassion for that.

And yes, even traditional Heather-hater me, is starting to feel bad for Heather. Because she, too, clearly has a lot of insecurity issues (which, may be why she and Tamara are friends). So, begrudingly, I guess I have to start laying off Mrs. DuBrow, a bit, too. All her bullshit is clearly the product of a woman who was brought up to revere status and material wealth. And, in life, if something doesn't knock you on your ass -- early on -- to make you realize that you're a pretentious penis, then figuring that out on your own can be tough -- especially since we live in a society that worships money.

Good people, such as yourself, are compassionate and sympathetic.

Thank you for sharing your self-medication story with us. I'm very happy to hear that is now as thing of the past.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Scrambled Fog

[Lady Grump]

I don't think that someone should be held to a different standard on here based on their profession. Would you have reacted had I not disclosed this information about myself? I doubt you would have and I don't appreciate the scolding.

 

To be honest, yes I would have not been as taken aback if you hand't mentioned your profession. I think it's hard enough to go to a therapist as is, so reading on a random forum that psychologists trash-talk folks with mental differences, did make a difference, for me. To me, it was a little like "the Pope" shaming Mary Magdalen.

 

That said, I do think your post was just the "last straw" entry way for me to relize that this kind of programming is crap -- and I shouldn't be supporting it. So, THANK YOU!

[DeeplyShallow]

To be honest, yes I would have not been as taken aback if you hand't mentioned your profession. I think it's hard enough to go to a therapist as is, so reading on a random forum that psychologists trash-talk folks with mental differences, did make a difference, for me. To me, it was a little like "the Pope" shaming Mary Magdalen.

That said, I do think your post was just the "last straw" entry way for me to relize that this kind of programming is crap -- and I shouldn't be supporting it. So, THANK YOU!

Fair enough, but I had an edit that came after your post, which was:

ETA: I stand by TRASHRA because that's what she is- trash. Anyone who gleefully plans/participates in the attempted rape of another is a disgusting piece of shit and I don't care what her damage is. And that is based on my work with countless trauma survivors- I have no tolerance for assholes like Tamra.

Regardless, best of luck to you and I hope that you have a successful, trusting relationship with your therapist.

[Lady Grump]

Thank you for sharing your self-medication story with us. I'm very happy to hear that is now as thing of the past.

 

No problem! I believe in honesty -- and openess. Which is probably why I was so "PRO SHANNON" this season. It actually kinda shocked me that people pelted her for that. Like, "this is supposed to be reality TV" -- YET, people were all, "OMG! She's actually talking about problems in her marriage!" Please, 75% of people have problems in their marriage. Why does keeping it secret make it better? If we crave reality TV so much, why do we blast people who are "real"?

 

It's a funny thing, about our culture: We demand that people live up to a certain bar -- and we feign understanding of certain differences -- but in "reality", we're just a bunch of scared monkeys who want to be liked -- and will jump on a band-wagon of hate, to fit in, if anybody defies those cuturally prescribed notions. Basically, we're all -- myself included -- a bunch judgmental, hypocritical cocks.

 

I'm not sure if your post was a sly attempt at shaming me for admitting I had an issue with wine or not. I choose, however, to believe it was genuine. And yes, I am glad that it's over too. And I hope, that if Tamara does return, she will have the courage and bravery to admit that her drinking did play a role in her sometimes abhorrant behavior. SO many women turn to the bottle -- secretly -- to combat the double standards set up in society; SO many women nit and pick at each other because we've accepted some puritanical idea of what a "good woman" is.

 

Again -- I am not excusing Tamara's lying and shit-stirring. I'm just at a place -- today (it may change) -- where I'm starting to question the actual impetus for all of the "hate". Are we just doing the leg work for stereotype believers? Maybe. And I am just as guilty.

 

More than that - the rules we've set up -- for life? How are shows like Real Housewives contributing to the fuckery?

 

 

ETA: I stand by TRASHRA because that's what she is- trash. Anyone who gleefully plans/participates in the attempted rape of another is a disgusting piece of shit and I don't care what her damage is. And that is based on my work with countless trauma survivors- I have no tolerance for assholes like Tamra.

 

Is what Tamara did abhorrant (naked wasted thing)? Yes!! Do I think it was encouraging rape? No. It was her being drunk and fucking dumb. I am NOT brushing that off. What she did there was awful. And if she was encouraging rape by doing that, then we're all guilty of encouraging sexism and supporting ideas of what "women SHOULD be" by watching these shows (which, by the way, is a domino effect to "encouraging" rape.)

Edited September 7, 2014 by Lady Grump

[DeeplyShallow]

No problem! I believe in honesty -- and openess. Which is probably why I was so "PRO SHANNON" this season. It actually kinda shocked me that people pelted her for that. Like, "this is supposed to be reality TV" -- YET, people were all, "OMG! She's actually talking about problems in her marriage!" Please, 75% of people have problems in their marriage. Why does keeping it secret make it better? If we crave reality TV so much, why do we blast people who are "real"?

It's a funny thing, about our culture: We demand that people live up to a certain bar -- and we feign understanding of certain differences -- but in "reality", we're just a bunch of scared monkeys who want to be liked -- and will jump on a band-wagon of hate, to fit in, if anybody defies those cuturally prescribed notions. Basically, we're all -- myself included -- a bunch judgmental, hypocritical cocks.

I'm not sure if your post was a sly attempt at shaming me for admitting I had an issue with wine or not. I choose, however, to believe it was genuine. And yes, I am glad that it's over too. And I hope, that if Tamara does return, she will have the courage and bravery to admit that her drinking did play a role in her sometimes abhorrant behavior. SO many women turn to the bottle -- secretly -- to combat the double standards set up in society; SO many women nit and pick at each other because we've accepted some puritanical idea of what a "good woman" is.

Again -- I am not excusing Tamara's lying and shit-stirring. I'm just at a place -- today (it may change) -- where I'm starting to question the actual impetus for all of the "hate". Are we just doing the leg work for sterotype believers? Maybe. And I am just as guilty.

More than that - the rules we've set up -- for life? How are shows like Real Housewives contributing to the fuckery?

Is what Tamara did abhorrant (naked wasted thing)? Yes!! Do I think it was encouraging rape? No. It was her being drunk and fucking dumb. I am NOT brushing that off. What she did there was awful. And if she was encouraging rape by doing that, then we're all guilty of encouraging sexism and supporting ideas of what "women SHOULD be" by watching these shows (which, by the way, is a domino effect to "encouraging" rape.)

We're going to have to agree to disagree, then.

[Grneyedldy]

I don't feel sorry for any of the women (or men for that matter) on any of the Housewives shows. Other than the very first year participants, they ALL (every single one of them) knew what they were signing up for. No one forced them. It was their choice. They gladly traded their souls for their 15 minutes of fame.........and more.

Whether they wanted to push a product, or for most of them, create a product and hope to become rich and famous, they all want the attention. Of course they have issues, because your average person would never sign up for this crap. And yes you are right, if we weren't here to watch them make fools of themselves, there wouldn't be a show.

I personally think the Housewives era is about over. It's just not that fun anymore. Shannon is the most "real" person we've seen since the early seasons and I'm afraid she will not be the same come next season. I would have quit these shows years ago, if it wasn't for forums like here that allow us to get our snark on and be completely non PC. It's about having some fun. I don't take any of this shit seriously and feel that we fellow posters are kindred spirits. Laughter is good for the soul. Lighten up. The end.

[Lady Grump]

Laughter is good for the soul. Lighten up. The end.

 

Yes it is. I guess we all just have different opinions about what is "funny". :-)

[Scrambled Fog]

@Lady Grump-

Nope. I was not attempting to shame you.

I simply appreciate the opportunity to see things from your point of view and experience.

[Grneyedldy]

Yes it is. I guess we all just have different opinions about what is "funny". :-)

I just think this might not be the right forum for you if the snarking seems too harsh. I'm sure there are forums that have a softer and more empathetic tone. I of course, have no idea where those would be because it's not what I'm looking for in a HW forum.

[mbaywife123]

Yes it is. I guess we all just have different opinions about what is "funny". :-)

And all of our differences is what keeps life interesting.

[Lady Grump]

I don't feel sorry for any of the women (or men for that matter) on any of the Housewives shows. Other than the very first year participants, they ALL (every single one of them) knew what they were signing up for. No one forced them. It was their choice. They gladly traded their souls for their 15 minutes of fame.........and more.

 

Fair. Absolutely fair. But just for shits, giggles and "fun": Who encouraged Tamara to do the show? Was it the husband at that time, Simon? Who, maybe, needed some publicity for his business (do it, honey, it will be GREAT for business!) And, to be fair, in my estimation (could be wrong) that the "reality show" bar for fuckery has rose in the last 5 years. So, for shits and giggles, let's say she got into it because she was one of those women who did anything to "please her husband" (shit, she talks about her religion a lot -- which is the same as Alexis' -- so maybe she was still stuck in the infinte loop of "my husband, my God" bullshit?), and then her husband dumped her, and this was the only paycheck available? So, her mental problems, coupled with her need to make money on her own, could have led to the Tamara we see now?

I just think this might not be the right forum for you if the snarking seems too harsh. I'm sure there are forums that have a softer and more empathetic tone. I of course, have no idea where those would be because it's not what I'm looking for in a HW forum.

 

No, it's the right forum. I just don't feel the need to agree with everyone, all the time.

[motorcitymom65]

Is what Tamara did abhorrant (naked wasted thing)? Yes!! Do I think it was encouraging rape? No. It was her being drunk and fucking dumb. I am NOT brushing that off. What she did there was awful. And if she was encouraging rape by doing that, then we're all guilty of encouraging sexism and supporting ideas of what "women SHOULD be" by watching these shows (which, by the way, is a domino effect to "encouraging" rape.)

I have never believed that Tamra was encouraging a rape in the naked wasted deal. If I did believe that, I assure you I would have never watched this franchise or another show on Bravo again, and would question anyone else who would. If a network would continue to employ someone who was attempting to perpetrate a rape, then shame on all of us for allowing that network to prosper. Forget judging Tamra, we cannot control her but we can certainly control our own responses.

I always thought this was were production really started getting involved in the drama. Tamra and Vicki (funny how often it gets forgotten that she was right there in this whole thing) thought it would be hysterical to get Gretchen drunk and help try to make her look bad. They thought she was a tramp and a fraud and that they could expose her true character if she got drunk. I don't think she either of them wanted her to be raped, nor do I believe they would have allowed it. I do think they were hoping she would start throwing her sexuality around a bit and prove their point that she was not who she said she was. It was horrible, it was disgusting, it was wrong. I always thought that if Simon was really interested in putting Tamra's character on trial and seeking full custody, he would just need to show this episode. Then I realized that he was right there chuckling away during the event, so he is just as big of an ass as Tamra is.

Edited September 7, 2014 by motorcitymom65

[FozzyBear]

I guess I'm at a table for one because I don't know how real I think Shannon is. I think most castmembers seem more real their first season and even more so if they come on as a replacement among castmembers who have been on for a while. So I think there was some of that going on.

But as for how genuine she is...shrug. I think she came on with a definite persona and game plan. She was going to be the put upon, neglected wife who's blue collar hubby didn't get all her California hippy spirituality. He would come to better understand her and her ways when everybody started pointing out how badly he treated her. She misfired and just came across as a spoiled, delusional nag for the first 1/2 of the season. She then course corrected (and I do give her credit for it) and switched to a story of her learning to appreciate David. It worked well and she pretty much won the season, good for her. But I don't see the sweet lamb lost in a sea of Bravo wolfs. I see a Real Housewife who is just a calculating and self serving as the rest. If she comes back, next season should be interesting. Lots of fan favorites get knocked down on their second season.

[Grneyedldy]

Fair. Absolutely fair. But just for shits, giggles and "fun": Who encouraged Tamara to do the show? Was it the husband at that time, Simon? Who, maybe, needed some publicity for his business (do it, honey, it will be GREAT for business!) And, to be fair, in my estimation (could be wrong) that the "reality show" bar for fuckery has rose in the last 5 years. So, for shits and giggles, let's say she got into it because she was one of those women who did anything to "please her husband" (shit, she talks about her religion a lot -- which is the same as Alexis' -- so maybe she was still stuck in the infinte loop of "my husband, my God" bullshit?), and then her husband dumped her, and this was the only paycheck available? So, her mental problems, coupled with her need to make money on her own, could have led to the Tamara we see now?

No, it's the right forum. I just don't feel the need to agree with everyone, all the time.

Nah I think Tamra is on this show because she is the "hottest" housewife in OC and a big ole famewhore.

I'm glad this is the right forum for you. I don't think anyone expects you to agree with them all the time.

[motorcitymom65]

I guess I'm at a table for one because I don't know how real I think Shannon is. I think most castmembers seem more real their first season and even more so if they come on as a replacement among castmembers who have been on for a while. So I think there was some of that going on.

But as for how genuine she is...shrug. I think she came on with a definite persona and game plan. She was going to be the put upon, neglected wife who's blue collar hubby didn't get all her California hippy spirituality. He would come to better understand her and her ways when everybody started pointing out how badly he treated her. She misfired and just came across as a spoiled, delusional nag for the first 1/2 of the season. She then course corrected (and I do give her credit for it) and switched to a story of her learning to appreciate David. It worked well and she pretty much won the season, good for her. But I don't see the sweet lamb lost in a sea of Bravo wolfs. I see a Real Housewife who is just a calculating and self serving as the rest. If she comes back, next season should be interesting. Lots of fan favorites get knocked down on their second season.

I largely agree with this. I always give a little side-eye when folks start throwing up how "real" a HW is. Shannon is far from the first one to wear this title. Before her there was Teresa G and Brandi. Brandi especially was loved by everyone because she just put it all out there. She supposedly told the truth, and she told us the good and the bad of her life. She didn't try to appear perfect, but openly shared her flaws with the world. Good Lord, the audience was collectively having multiple orgasms at her bravery in showing us her world. My reaction was why in the fuck would a person with children want to be this honest about this stuff? Why aren't you protecting your kids from the scrutiny that comes from this type of honesty? It would be one thing if your kids were older, but these kids are at the age where other kids are mean, and you struggle to find your own voice. I actually understood Brandi a little but more, because Brandi was looking for branding opportunities. That doesn't make it better, but it makes it easier to understand. Shannon doesn't seem to be hocking anything. She wants/needs for nothing. So why put her family through this? Ego?

[Midnight Cheese]

Personally I'll call Tamra every name I can think of all the livelong day, and pray for a Leap Year so I can tack on some more insults in a random February day.  Nothing we have seen suggests that Tamra lacks the capacity or agency to rein in her behavior - her on the show behaviors, including WWHL appearances, suggest the opposite, as does the social media nonsense excerpted and shared here.   She is a special breed of vile, and her ignorant, racist, misogynistic, self-pitying, patently dishonest, tearless scheming and cruelty are not exonerated IMO because she might benefit from therapy.  Happy to agree to disagree.  What I don't think is copacetic is for the suggestion to be posted that others - anyone else - has to take a knee and reflect on the wherefores of why we like/dislike any of these women.  We're all allowed to self-monitor unless the actual mods say so, right?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Midnight Cheese

[Higgins]

Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I guess I just take issue with declaring oneself a psychologist, then commenting that Tamara most likely has a personality disorder, and continuing to trash her. It seems like if psychologists want to "veg out", and these shows are their "down time" -- then why bring their professional opinions into the mix? Anyway....

 

Bottom line is that I am starting to feel sympathy for Tamara. I feel like her Real Housewives check is the only true money she makes, and clearly Bravo has rewarded her financially FOR being a shit-stirrer; as such, I can see where she may be thinking, "shit, I gotta stir shit to freaking EAT and have a roof over my head." Again, I am not excusing everything she has done, but I am developing some compassion for her -- the old mighty dollar has her stuck betweena rock and a hard place. And yes, she could have made better decisions in her life so she wouldn't have had to be on RHOC. But again, if she truly has a personality / chemical imbalance, terrible parenting, etc., etc., etc....maybe she wasn't capable of that in the same way a healthy person is. Just my opinion.....

 

 

 

ETA: I stand by TRASHRA because that's what she is- trash. Anyone who gleefully plans/participates in the attempted rape of another is a disgusting piece of shit and I don't care what her damage is. And that is based on my work with countless trauma survivors- I have no tolerance for assholes like Tamra.

I hate the name calling too but mainly because it seems so juvenile.

 

I have never believed that Tamra was encouraging a rape in the naked wasted deal. If I did believe that, I assure you I would have never watched this franchise or another show on Bravo again, and would question anyone else who would. If a network would continue to employ someone who was attempting to perpetrate a rape, then shame on all of us for allowing that network to prosper. Forget judging Tamra, we cannot control her but we can certainly control our own responses.

I always thought this was were production really started getting involved in the drama. Tamra and Vicki (funny how often it gets forgotten that she was right there in this whole thing) thought it would be hysterical to get Gretchen drunk and help try to make her look bad. They thought she was a tramp and a fraud and that they could expose her true character if she got drunk. I don't think she either of them wanted her to be raped, nor do I believe they would have allowed it. I do think they were hoping she would start throwing her sexuality around a bit and prove their point that she was not who she said she was. It was horrible, it was disgusting, it was wrong. I always thought that if Simon was really interested in putting Tamra's character on trial and seeking full custody, he would just need to show this episode. Then I realized that he was right there chuckling away during the event, so he is just as big of an ass as Tamra is.

Vicki had nothing to do with it. Tamara said to her.....I'm going to get her naked wasted and Vicki looked at her like she was crazy.

[Lady Grump]

Nah I think Tamra is on this show because she is the "hottest" housewife in OC and a big ole famewhore.

 

We all stay stupid shit. And let's face it: the media makes (and keeps) a whole lot of women focused on beauty and that kind of bullshit. (Since we don't value actual skills anymore -- and subjective bullshit is "where the money's at", lately). So, let's just say that her "bragging" about being  the "hottest" housewife was a product of insecurity. (She was also drunk at the time....for what it's worth.) If we knew that for sure - would you still have the same opinion? Would you be like, "UGH! people who are insecure SUCK! (which, is basically the same as saying "people who have low self-esteem (probably because of their upbrgining, and the soceity we live in, which touts 20-something beauty as the end all, be all)) SUCK!"?

 

I'm just playing the Devil's advocate today -- because some things are starting to click for me, personally.

 

Sure, I guess we could say, "GROW UP!" (R.I.P Joan Rivers). But, I think most people are insecure -- it's just levels we're quibbling over.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Lady Grump

[LotusFlower]

Fair. Absolutely fair. But just for shits, giggles and "fun": Who encouraged Tamara to do the show? Was it the husband at that time, Simon? Who, maybe, needed some publicity for his business (do it, honey, it will be GREAT for business!).

It's amazing to me that anyone could watch Tamra on this show and think she did it for her then-husband. Is she the biggest famewhore in HW history? No, but she loves every minute of it. And she signs up for it again and again.

[LotusFlower]

I always give a little side-eye when folks start throwing up how "real" a HW is. Shannon is far from the first one to wear this title. Before her there was Teresa G and Brandi. Brandi especially was loved by everyone because she just put it all out there. She supposedly told the truth, and she told us the good and the bad of her life. She didn't try to appear perfect, but openly shared her flaws with the world. Good Lord, the audience was collectively having multiple orgasms at her bravery in showing us her world. My reaction was why in the fuck would a person with children want to be this honest about this stuff?

WORD! Remember the phrase "keeping it real?" I love authenticity as much as anyone, but sometimes it's used to excuse bad behavior. Artists lauded for their songs even if the lyrics are mysogynistic or homophobic, cuz they're "keeping it real." HW's getting accolades and book deals even if they display gross behavior, cuz at least they're honest and "refreshingly" real. It's always been a pet peeve of mine. Again, I appreciate realness, but if your true self includes being a jerk, I feel that should be called out, too.

[Grneyedldy]

We all stay stupid shit. And let's face it: the media makes (and keeps) a whole lot of women focused on beauty and that kind of bullshit. (Since we don't value actual skills anymore -- and subjective bullshit is "where the money's at", lately). So, let's just say that her "bragging" about being  the "hottest" housewife was a product of insecurity. (She was also drunk at the time....for what it's worth.) If we knew that for sure - would you still have the same opinion? Would you be like, "UGH! people who are insecure SUCK! (which, is basically the same as saying "people who have low self-esteem (probably because of their upbrgining, and the soceity we live in, which touts 20-something beauty as the end all, be all)) SUCK!"?

 

I'm just playing the Devil's advocate today -- because some things are starting to click for me, personally.

 

Sure, I guess we could say, "GROW UP!" (R.I.P Joan Rivers). But, I think most people are insecure -- it's just levels we're quibbling over.

I think you are doing more than playing the a Devil' s advocate. Your assumptions and what ifs could go on forever and I'm not in the mood to play the what if game.

Tamra's the only one that has to decide if being on this show is too high a price to pay for her mental health.

[Lady Grump]

And she signs up for it again and again.

 

My point is that maybe "she signs up for it again and again" because she knows she has no skills, and this is the only way for her to earn a living? She can't get a job at McDonals or another fast-food place, because they only hire kids out of high school (when my husband and I were going through financial harships, we learned this one the hard way); she can't be a nurse or teacher because she doesn't have the schooling (or, perhaps, smarts); she can't be a doctor, lawyer or psychologist at this point, because, again, she didn't decide that that was what she wanted to do at age 18 -- nor does she seem like she comes from a family who could afford the education those careers require; Heck, she can't even be a "beauty school success story" (because she doesn't have taste); She can't be a model, because she is (by industry standards) too old; Reading to kids at a library is a "volunteer" position; What is she supposed to do!?

 

I think you are doing more than playing the a Devil' s advocate.

 

What am I doing then? I am playing the Devil's advocate. I am bringing up another possibility. Why is another possibility so unbelievable?

Edited September 8, 2014 by Lady Grump

[charming]

Reality TV pays Tamra a six figure income for a few months "work" but gee millions of people work regular jobs that they don't like or earn much from.

 

Tamra's not a victim.

[lunastartron]

I don't see how the Naked Wasted incident doesn't constitute sexual assault. For all of her references to overimbibing, I have only seen Tamra visibly intoxicated on air on a couple of occasions. The party she threw to celebrate her graduation from charm school wasn't one of them. Gretchen, by contrast, was so drunk she could barely stand. Despite this, Tamra continually exhorted her son to pursue a woman who obviously couldn't consent in an implicitly sexual context. She encouraged Ryan's persistent physical contact. When Ryan took Gretchen into the bathroom, the audio suggested that Ryan maintained his attempts at engagement while Gretchen protested. Sure, he eventually desisted (thankfully), but I'd say Gretchen would have a borderline case for sexual battery per California statutes. She never pursued criminal charges from what I understand, so perhaps she thought sexual misconduct compulsorily necessitates brute force. Perhaps Tamra and Ryan had similar views. Lots of people do; prevalence, however, doesn't necessarily make a perspective legally or morally correct.

I always thought Simon behaved deplorably during that episode, as well, from smirking at Tamra's actions to subsequently expressing his opinion that Gretchen somehow committed the more egregious transgression. I think Vicki, Jeana, and Lynn all offered variously disappointing reactions, but I don't think their failure to intervene as vigorously as I would have liked approaches, you know, premeditation, which is what I saw Tamra perpetrating.

 

 

 

My point is that maybe "she signs up for it again and again" because she knows she has no skills, and this is the only way for her to earn a living?; What is she supposed to do!?

 

Well, she could apply some of her past earnings to college tuition, get a degree, and then find a job. Nursing would possibly be a shrewd field for her to pursue. The "what can she do?" consideration is one to which she should probably give some thought. Production will either eventually cut her loose or the show will go off air at some point, so an effort to cultivate some skills would be the adult thing to do.

 

I actually extend Tamra some degree of sympathy vis-à-vis her lack of refinement/education- I don't expect her to as cultured as Heather, and I don't think the fact that she doesn't know the definition of "amalgam" means she's stupid. Similarly, I see her preoccupation with "hotness" as a sad by-product of life experience that has reinforced her reliance on her sexual appeal. Ultimately, though, Tamra is 47 years old. Lots of women without the benefit of a Bravo paycheck find a way to provide for their families, complete their education, etc, sometimes in very lucrative ways. Her vistas and opportunities are infinitely broader than those afforded to most of the country.

[Lisin]

Ok gang, lets cool it, agree to disagree and move it along. Thank you.

[Lablover27]

I wish....Lizzie said:  Lizzie and Eddie sitting on a tree, Eddie said he'd like to fuck me. 

 

I need this on a bumper sticker while I drive around Ladera Ranch.   Hmmm, maybe holding up a poster outside of Cut Fitness.  See how many honks I can get until I get arrested.   Sadly, no one can find Cut as it's not by Carl's Jr.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Lablover27

[FozzyBear]

I wish....Lizzie said: Lizzie and Eddie sitting on a tree, Eddie said he'd like to fuck me.

.

*slow clap* Bravo for making me spit out my glass of wine laughing. Bravo! Now I want an all Moliere episode on the RHOC where everyone has to speak in rhyming couplets.

[Petunia13]

Tamra wasn't drunk when she said "I'm the hottest housewife in the OC" it was her VoiceOver in the opening of the show and her catchphrase for years much like Heather's "fancy pants" or "champs".

[Lisin]

Hey gang, a whole slew of posts that continued the sniping back and forth at each other have been deleted. Cut it out or the thread will just be locked. Talk about the show, the reunion, not each other. Period. End of sentence. Thank you. 

[SFoster21]

No, thank you, Lisin!

[leisawoo]

Oh, THAT"S why I couldn't figure out what the hell happened? I couldn't stand to read thru some of them and yanno, scrolled ahead but grasped no understanding, lol. Y'all be sweet to each other and snarky to the Ho'Wives. We don't wanna get our threads locked up.And now, back to the show......

[Raven1707]

WORD! Remember the phrase "keeping it real?" I love authenticity as much as anyone, but sometimes it's used to excuse bad behavior. Artists lauded for their songs even if the lyrics are mysogynistic or homophobic, cuz they're "keeping it real." HW's getting accolades and book deals even if they display gross behavior, cuz at least they're honest and "refreshingly" real. It's always been a pet peeve of mine. Again, I appreciate realness, but if your true self includes being a jerk, I feel that should be called out, too.

I agree. As I see it, "keeping it real" and "owning it" are the exact same thing, and both are used far too often as an all-purpose, get-out-of-jail-free card excuse for bad behavior. Obviously, it's much simpler to "own" bad behavior than make an effort to change it.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Raven1707

[LotusFlower]

I agree. As I see it, "keeping it real" and "owning it" are the exact same thing, and both are used far too often as an all-purpose, get-out-of-jail-free card excuse for bad behavior. Obviously, it's much simpler to "own" bad behavior than make an effort to change it.

YES! To it all, but esp. the last sentence. Ok, so who on the OC "owns" their behavior? Vicki, for sure, as she pats herself on the back. Kristen, on RHONY, told Heather to own her bossiness, and didn't seem to get this was an insult. And of course there's Brandi, the Queen of owning her bad behavior...

[Midnight Cheese]

Keeping it real...

 

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/67hgjb/chappelle-s-show-when-keeping-it-real-goes-wrong---brenda-johnson---uncensored

 

....can often go wrong.  Luckily for me, I know to my marrow that Tamra Sue Waddle Barney Judge [insert subsequent names of 2-3 more saps] will never learn that lesson.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Sheesh, It still makes me cringe to hear Heather ask, "Are we the Real Housewives of Guadalajara?"  Did Heather mean it to be as awful & vile as it came off?  Would it have been any better, given they were drinking tequila, if she said "Are we the Real Housewives of Mexico?"  Nah, that mighta been just as awful.  Still think Heather's sense of humor, er, the very few times she attempts to have one, really sucks ass.  Like when she tried to pull a Joan Rivers on Shannon by saying how she can't be green cuz she colors her hair.  Sure, Madame had to say it was a joke.  She had to say that cuz it wasn't fuckin' funny & didn't sound like a joke -- just a nasty dig & a typical Heather put down.  Um, not in the least what Joannie would do.  She'd be funny as shit.  But Heather never is.  Just nitpicky & nasty as fuck.  Blech.  Really can't stand her.

[Scrambled Fog]

I can't believe I have gone as far as I have in life without knowing ovens have a floor!

And people say RHOC is mindless. I beg to differ.

Thanks for the edu-ma-cation Heather!

[LotusFlower]

Keeping it real...

 

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/67hgjb/chappelle-s-show-when-keeping-it-real-goes-wrong---brenda-johnson---uncensored

 

....can often go wrong. .

Thank you for that. Comedy gold.

[sasha206]

I'm not shocked at all that people in the hospitality industry talk about the guests, diners, etc... It was just jarring to see it televised. We're introduced to the charter guests as very wealthy people, who probably never expected to be snarked on like that. Don't get me wrong - I love it!

 

Yeah, I don't know.  I mean, the guests signed up to be on Below Deck.  I'm sure they had to expect some level of snark?  And the hospitality folks on Below Deck pretty much are paid by Bravo to talk about guests and situations.  It would be a boring show if crew didn't give you some snark about the guests!

[misschung]

This reunion was quite a snore.  Lizzie adds nothing to the show for me. Tamra can just go and get stung by a hornet's nest full of wasps as far as I'm concerned.  That woman has serious issues and she needs to halt her use of social media and this show for the sake of her kids.

 

It's interesting, I remember one show when Vicki was enforcing the importance of having a job and income, Tamra replied and said something like "well I'm not going to go get a job at McDonalds."

 

She likes the show and the fact that they pay her to do what she does best, but she COULD get another job.  She has her real estate license.  If she learned to shut her mouth and just work for once, maybe she'd have some money in the bank that didn't involve the demise of others in order to obtain.

[lillypforme]

  Andy you fuckin ritalin addict, if you're gonna ask a question, shit, do it! 

 

actually, no. If Cohen WAS on Ritalin or a derivative of such, we'd actually have answers. He's on a different drug- it's called $$$$sirensmedia$$$$. He can't ask questions that production does not allow him to- or be aired asking them. 

 

Hopefully his show will improve since his dismissal as a producer. Andy is just an employee these days. With a very tiny office. To compliment his tiny ratings talk show.