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Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

candall

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Dimity
Dimity
nokat
nokat

I thought this belonged here. We need the occasional laugh.  

Browncoat
Browncoat

I just had a contractor reschedule an appointment for the second time.  They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause.  🤣🤣

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Bastet

Bastet

(edited)
15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Sometimes EFFECT can be an action too.

And "affect" can be a noun.  We discussed this the first time the mug was posted (I don't remember which thread it was in, though; it could have been Pet Peeves instead of here).  I didn't think of it at the time, just shrugging eh, only so much can be covered on a mug, but today I realized they could have put smaller-print footnotes on the other side of the mug.  It still cracks me up.

Edited by Bastet
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Leeds

Leeds

Another example of "commas matter".  (From a CNN obituary about journalist Grant Wahl.)  (Not to mention the whole "voices who" issue.)

 "He routinely shone an uncomfortably bright light on the darker side of professional sports highlighting human rights abuses, and speaking up for those voices who had been silenced."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/11/football/grant-wahl-tribute-spt-intl/index.html

SuprSuprElevated

SuprSuprElevated

6 hours ago, Leeds said:

Another example of "commas matter".  (From a CNN obituary about journalist Grant Wahl.)  (Not to mention the whole "voices who" issue.)

 "He routinely shone an uncomfortably bright light on the darker side of professional sports highlighting human rights abuses, and speaking up for those voices who had been silenced."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/11/football/grant-wahl-tribute-spt-intl/index.html

I wonder if said sports highlighting was done in green or yellow.

SweetieDarling

SweetieDarling

9 hours ago, Leeds said:

Another example of "commas matter".  (From a CNN obituary about journalist Grant Wahl.)  (Not to mention the whole "voices who" issue.)

 "He routinely shone an uncomfortably bright light on the darker side of professional sports highlighting human rights abuses, and speaking up for those voices who had been silenced."

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/11/football/grant-wahl-tribute-spt-intl/index.html

There are professional sports that highlight human rights abuses? 

Sweatshops competing over who can produce the most sweaters in a given period of time, with minimal staff and no breaks?

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Zella

Zella

3 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Not a TV-related one, but something I just read on another message board, and it took me a few seconds to figure out what the person meant:

"Another wards"

My all-time favorite one, which I've cherished ever since I saw it years ago, was someone complaining on a message board about "grizzly nudity" in a movie. I resisted responding that "bear nudity" was always the worst. 👼

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

9 hours ago, Zella said:

My all-time favorite one, which I've cherished ever since I saw it years ago, was someone complaining on a message board about "grizzly nudity" in a movie. I resisted responding that "bear nudity" was always the worst. 👼

Aww! Missed opportunity! 
But you’d have needed a bear 🧸 emoji or image for clarity.

But I’m a bit confused:   
Was “grizzly nudity” autocorrect for a misspelling of “gratuitous nudity,” or…?

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SoMuchTV

SoMuchTV

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Aww! Missed opportunity! 
But you’d have needed a bear 🧸 emoji or image for clarity.

But I’m a bit confused:   
Was “grizzly nudity” autocorrect for a misspelling of “gratuitous nudity,” or…?

I'm not the one who reported it in the wild, but I'm guessing it was an autocorrect (or just picked the wrong one) of this:

https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/grisly-gristly-grizzly/

Quote

Grisly means relating to horror or disgust, gristly means related to gristle or cartilage, and grizzly is a big ol' bear. That can eat you.

 

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Zella

Zella

35 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I'm not the one who reported it in the wild, but I'm guessing it was an autocorrect (or just picked the wrong one) of this:

https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/grisly-gristly-grizzly/

 

Yes I always interpreted it as them meaning grisly nudity and not understanding it probably wasn't the most appropriate adjective for their complaint in the first place. 

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Grrarrggh

Grrarrggh

4 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Another gem from our local news -- not only is it a sad piece of news, the crawl on the screen was sad:  "Three women disappeared after crossing Mexican boarder."  And no, I don't think they had a Mexican person renting a room in their house.

Damn, and I thought British boarding schools could be rough... 

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)
On 3/12/2023 at 9:17 AM, Browncoat said:

Another gem from our local news -- not only is it a sad piece of news, the crawl on the screen was sad:  "Three women disappeared after crossing Mexican boarder."  

7 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Maybe they refused to return his security deposit?

Or the 3 women were renting out the basement and clog dancing every night above their tenant until 1am.

Apologies to any real people. 

Edited by shapeshifter
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JTMacc99

JTMacc99

Please use this topic to discuss all things grammar and language. This includes any grammar peeves you have and any of your general thoughts on the use of language.

Why does grammar matter?

Quote

One of the most sensible answers to the question of why grammar matters appears in a position statement on the teaching of grammar in American schools. Published by the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE), the report is refreshingly free of educational cant. Here's how it begins:

 

Quote

"Grammar is important because it is the language that makes it possible for us to talk about language. Grammar names the types of words and word groups that make up sentences not only in English but in any language. As human beings, we can put sentences together even as children—we can all do grammar. But to be able to talk about how sentences are built, about the types of words and word groups that make up sentences—that is knowing about grammar. And knowing about grammar offers a window into the human mind and into our amazingly complex mental capacity." 

 

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"People associate grammar with errors and correctness. But knowing about grammar also helps us understand what makes sentences and paragraphs clear and interesting and precise. Grammar can be part of literature discussions when we and our students closely read the sentences in poetry and stories. And knowing about grammar means finding out that all languages and all dialects follow grammatical patterns."

 

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PRgal

PRgal

Grammar can evolve/change.  For example, it's no longer controversial to use "they/them" as a singular than it was even 10 years ago.  I took a copy editing course around 2005 where the instructor told us to NEVER use "they/them."  This was long before "non-binary" was even in our vernacular, but some of us questioned him (a 50-something man) about it, using the example of someone who wanted to remain anonymous or using it like the "Royal We."  

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nokat

nokat

(edited)

Yes grammar/language can evolve. If it can be understood by the reader then it's fine with me, but when subtleties get lost it makes me sad because language loses its beauty. What is currently irking me is words that sound or look similar used instead of the correct word, as I had mentioned in peeves. Reign for rein, regime for regimen. A word that has its own useful meaning should not be substituted, such as loose for lose.

I might as well get used to it as fewer people seem to read edited books.

Edited by nokat
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partofme

partofme

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

Grammar can evolve/change.  For example, it's no longer controversial to use "they/them" as a singular than it was even 10 years ago.  I took a copy editing course around 2005 where the instructor told us to NEVER use "they/them."  This was long before "non-binary" was even in our vernacular, but some of us questioned him (a 50-something man) about it, using the example of someone who wanted to remain anonymous or using it like the "Royal We."  

Not necessarily anonymous but if the person is just unknown, I've always preferred to use "they/them" to saying what I consider to be awkward "he or she".

I do like good grammar, I will watch true crime and correct the grammar on the shows, but I always give exceptions to people who's first language isn't English.

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PRgal

PRgal

9 minutes ago, partofme said:

Not necessarily anonymous but if the person is just unknown, I've always preferred to use "they/them" to saying what I consider to be awkward "he or she".

I do like good grammar, I will watch true crime and correct the grammar on the shows, but I always give exceptions to people who's first language isn't English.

Unless you're worried that your child is picking up on it.  Like, my son is starting to say "time to wash hands" rather than "time to wash my/your/our hands" because my parents say that a lot.  I always try to repeat it.  He might correct himself the next time, but it's not 100%.  

SoMuchTV

SoMuchTV

(edited)
1 hour ago, partofme said:

Not necessarily anonymous but if the person is just unknown, I've always preferred to use "they/them" to saying what I consider to be awkward "he or she".

I do like good grammar, I will watch true crime and correct the grammar on the shows, but I always give exceptions to people who's first language isn't English.

In the spirit of the thread:

Quote

I do like good grammar, I will watch true crime and correct the grammar on the shows, but I always give exceptions to people whose first language isn't English.

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

And I completely agree that they/them is appropriate and useful in a variety of situations.  I have no problem with the "somebody left their umbrella" type usage.

I sometimes read a site that's a collection of advice columns, and people can comment on the letters and the advice they were given.  There are a handful of "regular" commenters who freak the heck out if a letter writer refers to someone as "they."  Doesn't matter if they don't know the gender of the person, or the person is nonbinary, or the letter writer wants to obscure the person's gender so they don't get advice with some kind of built in bias... nope, we're going to hell in a handbasket because woke!  (And yes I realize I did use "they" multiple times there 😉)

Edited by SoMuchTV
adding "they" thoughts
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PRgal

PRgal

35 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

In the spirit of the thread:

(Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

And I completely agree that they/them is appropriate and useful in a variety of situations.  I have no problem with the "somebody left their umbrella" type usage.

I sometimes read a site that's a collection of advice columns, and people can comment on the letters and the advice they were given.  There are a handful of "regular" commenters who freak the heck out if a letter writer refers to someone as "they."  Doesn't matter if they don't know the gender of the person, or the person is nonbinary, or the letter writer wants to obscure the person's gender so they don't get advice with some kind of built in bias... nope, we're going to hell in a handbasket because woke!  (And yes I realize I did use "they" multiple times there 😉)

What I do have a problem with is when someone identifies themselves as both a he (or she) and they and then articles use both pronouns interchangeably.  Stick with one or the other.  

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SoMuchTV

SoMuchTV

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

Like, my son is starting to say "time to wash hands" rather than "time to wash my/your/our hands" because my parents say that a lot.  I always try to repeat it.  He might correct himself the next time, but it's not 100%.  

In my part of the world that would sound perfectly fine. Maybe he’s hearing it from teachers talking to a group. Seems interchangeable with “time for everyone to wash your hands” or maybe “y’all wash your hands now!”

27 minutes ago, PRgal said:

What I do have a problem with is when someone identifies themselves as both a he (or she) and they and then articles use both pronouns interchangeably.  Stick with one or the other.  

I know, right?!  I’ve run across people who say they’re fine with either “she” or “they”, say, but if you’re writing about them, pick a lane!

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JTMacc99

JTMacc99

I think that for a very long time when the gender of a person was unknown, it was normal to just use "he, him, himself" in the sentence. So the sentence would be "The doctor is in New York now. He previously worked in London."  But this is outdated and generally not cool to just write things that make it sound like we're assuming the doctor is male.

"He or she" or "him or her" is would work in that sentence, but it can get ugly if you have a sentence, or sentences, that use "he or she" and "him or her" and "himself or herself" multiple times. 

So at this point, "The doctor is in New York now. They previously worked in London." has become an acceptable way to say it.

For what it is worth, it sounds wrong in my head, even though I know it is okay. 

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nokat

nokat

3 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I'm just aware that if I attempt to point out any issues it this thread, I'd better be daggon sure I've proofread my post about eight times!

I thought it was a given that when correcting someone on grammar you will frequently make a mistake yourself. So I'll read my own post and even after I thought I'd proofread I'll still find mistakes. That's my we let others proofread for us. ;)

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annzeepark914

annzeepark914

(edited)

Well, over at chitchat, I posted that I used to subscribe to Bob Appetit 😁 but caught it just before I hit the submit button. I make more typos on my phone than on my laptop (even though I use a little pointy stylus).  While typing these sentences, extra words were added (does autocorrect  toss out any old words just for the helluvit???)

Edited by annzeepark914
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JTMacc99

JTMacc99

3 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I'm just aware that if I attempt to point out any issues it this thread, I'd better be daggon sure I've proofread my post about eight times!

When I was working on some things to write for the opening post, at one point I had a sentence that had "its" in it. When I was reading it back, I realized I had typed the contraction "it's" by mistake. 

I deleted the whole sentence. I don't need this kind of pressure.

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annzeepark914

annzeepark914

1 hour ago, JTMacc99 said:

When I was working on some things to write for the opening post, at one point I had a sentence that had "its" in it. When I was reading it back, I realized I had typed the contraction "it's" by mistake. 

I deleted the whole sentence. I don't need this kind of pressure.

I bet you typed "its" and autocorrect "corrected" it for you.  That has happened to me too many times.  I've even disconnected autocorrect from my phone but it still changes spellings and even tosses in words that had nothing to do with what I was trying to say.

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supposebly

supposebly

On 4/13/2023 at 9:57 AM, JTMacc99 said:

it was normal to just use "he, him, himself" in the sentence. So the sentence would be "The doctor is in New York now. He previously worked in London."

It was just as normal to say. "The nurse is in New York Now. She previously worked in London."

It wasn't just a general preference for male pronouns and using them as default, it was also normal to associate pronouns with stereotypical male/female things.

Less about grammar, more about sexist language use.

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