Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[ABay]

A lot of libraries subscribe to it so you might still have access to it.

[backformore]

One I've seen a few times on various reality shows is "let's cheers"  or "let's do a cheers" when they mean "let's toast"  or "let's have a toast."  Except there's no spoken toast, so "let's cheers"  I assume means "let's clink our glasses and say cheers." 

Either way, I hate it. 

[Sandman87]

A news report from some political get together in Chico yesterday had the reporter talking to a bunch of college students who were waiting in line for the event. He spoke to four of them, and every single one of them added "like" and "you know" to their sentences as if they were punctuation marks instead of words with meanings. "It's, like, been such a long time, you know, since we've, you know, like, had this happen..."

We're doomed. These incoherent chowder-heads are the future of our country.

[CoderLady]

One of the many good things I like about scripted shows is that I don't have to hear "like" three or four times in every sentence when characters are conversing. It'll be a sad day when the current crop of script writers and editors age out and are replaced by people who don't see a problem with dialog that's mostly "like" and "she's all" and "then he goes," etc. It'll have to be back to books for me, but that's not really a bad thing.

I'm done. Now get off my lawn.

[orza]

Saying "like" and "you know" to excess is not something new. It's more an age thing than a generational thing. I used to pepper every sentence with them back when I was in high school and college, as did a lot of other kids my age. That was a very long time ago. My own kids used to do that, too. but they've stopped now. Most people grow out of it, usually when they've been working at a serious job for a while and notice that no one else at work talks like a teenager and they are more likely to be taken seriously if they behave and talk like an adult.

[Moose135]

Wednesday evening, I was taking the Long Island Rail Road back out from NYC, and ended up sitting next to two college-aged ladies, heading home from their summer intern jobs.  I thought, like, my head, like, was going to, like, explode listening to them, you know...

[bilgistic]

An internship used to be grunt work kids did for free and college credit to put on a resume to show experience, skills gained, connections made, etc. Now kids get paid for it, and not poorly. This is a concrete example of How Things Are Different Now, and not in a good way.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 6/4/2016 at 1:13 PM, orza said:

Saying "like" and "you know" to excess is not something new. It's more an age thing than a generational thing. I used to pepper every sentence with them back when I was in high school and college, as did a lot of other kids my age. That was a very long time ago. My own kids used to do that, too. but they've stopped now. Most people grow out of it, usually when they've been working at a serious job for a while and notice that no one else at work talks like a teenager and they are more likely to be taken seriously if they behave and talk like an adult.

Remember when Caroline Kennedy used "you know" about a million times in an interview and the world went crazy?  That told me it's not something that just kids do, and fair or not, she was criticized for it (I fall on the "fair" side).

This is not the thread for discussing society's ills, but the whole millennial inclusivity thing is starting to mean that people don't have to behave and talk like an adult to get taken seriously.  Case in point:  vocal fry.  It's just the way people talk and if it bugs you there's something wrong with you (probably your advanced age). 

Back to the topic...

On 6/4/2016 at 0:51 PM, CoderLady said:

One of the many good things I like about scripted shows is that I don't have to hear "like" three or four times in every sentence when characters are conversing. It'll be a sad day when the current crop of script writers and editors age out and are replaced by people who don't see a problem with dialog that's mostly "like" and "she's all" and "then he goes," etc. It'll have to be back to books for me, but that's not really a bad thing.

I'm done. Now get off my lawn.

But as discussed upthread, they've already started using "between she and I" in scripted shows and I've ranted about a scripted show using "your guys's" as a possessive for "you guys." 

This is how bad it is--I had the TV on while cooking and my hands were too grimy to work the remote, and "Two and a Half Men" came on.  I've never seen the show, but I know of it (which is why I'd never seen it, actually).  Anyway, within just a couple of minutes Charlie Sheen used the word "me," and not as "Me and him went to the store."  He used it as the object of a preposition (is that what it's called?), as in "He brought it to Bob and me."  When "Two and a Half Men" makes me nostalgic for quality in television, the end is near.

[CoderLady]

7 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

This is how bad it is--I had the TV on while cooking and my hands were too grimy to work the remote, and "Two and a Half Men" came on.  I've never seen the show, but I know of it (which is why I'd never seen it, actually).  Anyway, within just a couple of minutes Charlie Sheen used the word "me," and not as "Me and him went to the store."  He used it as the object of a preposition (is that what it's called?), as in "He brought it to Bob and me."  When "Two and a Half Men" makes me nostalgic for quality in television, the end is near.

It's cool that that one actually works. If you take out the "Bob and" the sentence is still correct. It's one of my pet peeves that people don't try this more often.

Edited June 10, 2016 by CoderLady

[ethalfrida]

2 hours ago, CoderLady said:

It's cool that that one actually works. If you take out the "Bob and" the sentence is still correct. It's one of my pet peeves that people don't try this more often.

OMG, it drives me crazy! I scream at the tv. I've even written to Dr. Phil about his misuse... it is one of the first things you are taught in school starting in grade 3... how to use "me" and "I". 

[orza]

And how about "myself" instead of "me", as in "Please ask Bob or myself.". I find that one annoying, too.

[Quof]

Quote

I find that one annoying, too

It's Middle Management Myself.  People think throwing in an extra syllable makes them sound smarter, or more important.

[StatisticalOutlier]

18 hours ago, Quof said:

It's Middle Management Myself.  People think throwing in an extra syllable makes them sound smarter, or more important.

Agree. 

People have become irrationally terrified of the word "me."  Except to start a sentence.  Sigh.

[CoderLady]

Heh. I'm waiting for someone to try to pull "There's no 'I' in 'team'" on me so I can say, "But there is 'me' in 'team'." so they'll have to shut the hell up.

[Constantinople]

People almost never say "You're welcome" anymore in response to Thank you".  It's almost always "No problem" instead.

I know that "No problem" isn't grammatically incorrect, at least I don't  think it is, but I didn't know where else to post this.

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, CoderLady said:

Heh. I'm waiting for someone to try to pull "There's no 'I' in 'team'" on me so I can say, "But there is 'me' in 'team'." so they'll have to shut the hell up.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Moose135 said:

Put that up in your cubicle at work -- I DARE you!!

[DeLurker]

Because of the news coverage about the Stanford rape case, I keep hearing how people are upset by the verdict. No, think most are fine with the verdict - it is the sentence that is upsetting.

You are broadcasters and legal analysts, at least that is how you are billed.

[Sandman87]

On Saturday, June 11, 2016 at 6:09 PM, DeLurker said:

 it is the sentence that is upsetting.

When you get right down to it, isn't this whole thread about upsetting sentences?

Thank you. I'll be here all week.

[Sandman87]

The news anchor on BBC America tonight told us about today's ruling against Russian "ath-uh-letes." It's bad enough that they can't hire anyone who knows how to pronounce their "r"s, now they're inserting extra syllables into words.

[Rick Kitchen]

I heard a realtor the other night talking about being a "real-uh-tor".

[Sandman87]

That's obviously because they sell real-uh-state.

[StatisticalOutlier]

Jay Leno has a show about cars called Jay Leno's Garage, and he just said, "Between you and me."  It was a voiceover, so I don't know whether it was scripted or not, but I don't think I care.  It came out of someone's mouth on TV and I'm doing a little happy dance.

[candall]

6 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Jay Leno has a show about cars called Jay Leno's Garage, and he just said, "Between you and me."  It was a voiceover, so I don't know whether it was scripted or not, but I don't think I care.  It came out of someone's mouth on TV and I'm doing a little happy dance.

I spotted this post on the Recent Comments page and spent 20 minutes making my way here so I could give you a heart-click.

When I hear "between you and me," I feel my shoulders relax just a little bit. 

[Terrafamilia]

Now that American Ninja Warrior is back for the summer, they bring with it something that bugs. The mention of "Mount Midoriyama". Since 'yama' means mountain it's like saying Mount Midori Mountain.

[StatisticalOutlier]

I'm watching one of those shows about really fat people (don't judge) and the woman in the show said, "I am literally the elephant in the room." 

No, she's not literally the elephant in the room.  Or maybe she kind of is.  Is she literally a metaphorical elephant?

[Sandman87]

While watching live coverage of the UK's Brexit vote, I heard one commentator use the phrase "dead as a dormouse." Unless there's been a massive die-off of dormice all over Europe, I suspect that he meant something else.
 

4 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

Now that American Ninja Warrior is back for the summer, they bring with it something that bugs. The mention of "Mount Midoriyama". Since 'yama' means mountain it's like saying Mount Midori Mountain.

This reminds me of the way that people in California always refer to that long north-south road as "The El Camino Real", which would translate to "The The Royal Road."

[riley702]

1 hour ago, Sandman87 said:

While watching live coverage of the UK's Brexit vote, I heard one commentator use the phrase "dead as a dormouse." Unless there's been a massive die-off of dormice all over Europe, I suspect that he meant something else.

The expression should be "dead as a doornail", although you'll hear mangled versions such as "dead as a doorknob" or "dead as a dormouse". The door nail is dead because it was traditionally pounded all the way thru the door and then the protruding end was hammered flat to hold it securely. Such a nail was unable to be reused even if you could easily remove it, so it is "dead".

[Sandman87]

Yes, I learned all of that after reading A Christmas Carol in grade school, mainly because the narration's musings about how it ought to be "dead as a coffin nail" made me curious.

Now I've got a picture in my head of a mouse nailed to a door.

[fishcakes]

9 hours ago, Sandman87 said:

This reminds me of the way that people in California always refer to that long north-south road as "The El Camino Real", which would translate to "The The Royal Road."

Californians always put "the" before names of highways and roads, but I don't know why. I lived there for a few years and it was always jarring to me to say something like, "I-5" and have the person respond, "the I-5?" as if they were clarifying that I wasn't trying to direct them down some counterfeit stretch of freeway.

[kassygreene]

I think it's more of a southern California thing - I lived in the SF Bay Area for a year and saw a different news story on that verbal tic three or four times in that year....  Once you are aware of it, you then get to be aware of lazy screen-writing / directing / acting choices, when a reference to, say, "The 95" pops up in a series set on the East Coast.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, kassygreene said:

I think it's more of a southern California thing - I lived in the SF Bay Area for a year and saw a different news story on that verbal tic three or four times in that year....  Once you are aware of it, you then get to be aware of lazy screen-writing / directing / acting choices, when a reference to, say, "The 95" pops up in a series set on the East Coast.

Yes, I lived in northernmost California (about 45 minutes from the Oregon border) for 15 years, and we always said just "I-5." Even in Sacramento, where I lived for 4 years, it was always just "Capital City freeway."

[Rick Kitchen]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, I lived in northernmost California (about 45 minutes from the Oregon border) for 15 years, and we always said just "I-5." Even in Sacramento, where I lived for 4 years, it was always just "Capital City freeway."

 

Well that's because there are two I-80s in Sacramento, so they have to differentiate.

[shapeshifter]

27 minutes ago, Rick Kitchen said:

Well that's because there are two I-80s in Sacramento, so they have to differentiate.

True, but never "the I-80," rather always just "I-80," right? I might be wrong.

[Bastet]

I live in Los Angeles, so, yes, I put "the" before a freeway, but it's not "the I-5" it's just "the 5." 

Like someone upthread, I always notice - and twitch - when a character adds "the" despite being born and raised someplace where that's not how it's said.

[Sandman87]

We have a weatherman up here in the north who always refers to I-5 as "The Five." It makes me want to throw angry skunks at him.

[riley702]

That's quite the mental image!

[Shannon L.]

Quote

I live in Los Angeles, so, yes, I put "the" before a freeway, but it's not "the I-5" it's just "the 5." 

I live in Pasadena, just a mile away from "the 210".  But, in Vermont, my parents live just a few blocks from "I-89"  :)  One thing I had to get used to was back east they were "interstates".  Out here, they are "freeways". 

[shapeshifter]

32 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

...One thing I had to get used to was back east they were "interstates".  Out here, they are "freeways". 

In Chicago and elsewhere, they are "tollways," and they are not free. 

[ABay]

In New York, I 90 is the Thruway and it is by no means free. In Massachusetts, it's the Turnpike and also not free. I 91, I 95, etc. are either I# or just # (in CT) or sometimes "the 290" (WNY), sometimes Route # for smaller highways unless they have a special name like the Wilbur Cross or the Merritt (Route 15 in CT) or the Kensington or the Expressway (Rte 33 in WNY). I don't remember what the names are in Ohio.

[Pyralis]

Those sorts of regionalisms are always interesting to me.  Here in Southern Ontario we have "The 401" which is the multi-lane highway running from Windsor to Montreal.  Even though its official name is "The Macdonald-Cartier Freeway" no one calls it that and even the media here refer to it as The 401.

In another regionalism, frequently I encounter "I seen" which never fails to result in a mental "no, you mean 'I saw' or 'I have seen'" reaction from me. 

[satrunrose]

It's the same in the Maritimes. Our major highways are all "the one-oh-whatever". Sections of highway in the city have their own nicknames too like "the Circ" short for Circumferential Highway. Occasionally, you'll hear "the T.C.", for the Trans-Canada Highway but that one doesn't get to the media as much. I wonder if the Prairies and the West Coast are the same? 

Edited June 25, 2016 by satrunrose

[bilgistic]

OK, I'll bite. I've never heard anything here in the South other than I-##, as in, "I'm taking I-85 to Highway 52."

For the most part and to my knowledge, we don't have tollways except that "they" are trying to build some in my city (Charlotte). It's been HIGHLY controversial, and the concept has been dubbed "Lexus lanes", because only some of the lanes alongside the existing interstate would become toll lanes, to "ease congestion". Therefore, only those folks with expendable income would be able to take the toll lanes.

[atomationage]

Florida has a turnpike with tolls, and people drive so fast on it that the state troopers have turbo-charged racing cars to catch them.   I-4 and I-95 are called as such, but I don't think the newer I-75 is(This is coming from 20 years ago).  441 is just 441.  From Tampa to Miami, the Tamiami Trail is just called The Trail,(41, also  called Alligator Alley from Naples to Miami), confusing if you live in Orlando, where The Trail is Orange Blossom Trail (17/92/441).  

In Chicago, there are expressways and tollways.   The expressways are The Kennedy, The Eisenhower,  The Stevenson, The Dan Ryan, The Bishop Ford, and Lake Shore Drive, which older people call "The Outer Drive".   There is The Skyway, with a toll, now privately owned, and The Tri-State, also with tolls, which connects Indiana with Wisconsin thru Illinois.  The newer tollways are called The Reagan and The Jane Addams, but I have no idea which one is which.  

[Quof]

On another note, I was driving around last Sunday, enjoying the sun, with mindless pop radio playing.  The station has a pair of university students who travel around in a promo vehicle, handing out swag and treats, doing live shots from various events.   Listening to them made my ears bleed "Mike and me just left the festival..."  "Me and Katie are at the park...."   "Come see Mike and I at the pool..." Finally, I posted on every one of the station's social media accounts - Facebook, Twitter, Instagram - asking them to please teach those children some grammar before allowing them near a microphone again.  I'm debating whether to tune in tomorrow to see if it had any effect. I fear it has not.

[bilgistic]

1 hour ago, atomationage said:

Florida has a turnpike with tolls, and people drive so fast on it that the state troopers have turbo-charged racing cars to catch them.   I-4 and I-95 are called as such, but I don't think the newer I-75 is(This is coming from 20 years ago).  441 is just 441.  From Tampa to Miami, the Tamiami Trail is just called The Trail,(41, also  called Alligator Alley from Naples to Miami), confusing if you live in Orlando, where The Trail is Orange Blossom Trail (17/92/441).  

In Chicago, there are expressways and tollways.   The expressways are The Kennedy, The Eisenhower,  The Stevenson, The Dan Ryan, The Bishop Ford, and Lake Shore Drive, which older people call "The Outer Drive".   There is The Skyway, with a toll, now privately owned, and The Tri-State, also with tolls, which connects Indiana with Wisconsin thru Illinois.  The newer tollways are called The Reagan and The Jane Addams, but I have no idea which one is which.  

Now I know why it's called the Tamiami Trail! I used to created labeled aerials and maps for commercial real estate clients in Florida, and I didn't know. Is it pronounced "tam-i-am-ee" (long i)?

[atomationage]

Just now, bilgistic said:

Is it pronounced "tam-i-am-ee" (long i)?

It's pronounced Tammyammy, but rarely, as it's just The Trail.  My reference point for that is from the Gulf Coast side.  I don't remember if it's called anything in Miami other than Alligator Alley.  

[ABay]

The conversation has called to mind, from the deep recesses of my childhood memory, lying awake on winter nights listening to the litany of snow closings. It always began "The Skyway, Father Baker Bridge, and Fuhrman Blvd. All Buffalo public and parochial schools..." My town was at the end of the alphabet and the only time I remember it closing was during the blizzard of '77.

[Ohwell]

If I see someone write "no one" as "noone" one more time........

Arrrggghhhhh!!!

Edited June 26, 2016 by Ohwell

[bilgistic]

We could get into a discussion of gerunds and other verb forms, or y'all could just agree with me that "addicting" is an unacceptable word when "addictive" exists. A little part of me dies every time someone says, "This [food/makeup/TV program] is so addicting!"

People are seriously overusing "obsessed" now, too. "OMFG I'm SO obsessed with this [food/makeup/hair/jewelry]! I literally cannot stop taking pictures of it!!"

Stop it.

Edited June 26, 2016 by bilgistic