Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Yeah No]

I took this little gem in the hotel lobby this morning.

[fastiller]

This is a question that is on an old form from NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission called "FASTRACK SERVICE APPLICANT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT" (I can't tell you how much the single "t" in FASTRACK sends me twitching!).  

I'm inclined to answer "blue" or "eighty-five" or "floppy disks".

 

Edited May 20 by fastiller
typo; thanks @EtheltoTillie!!!

[EtheltoTillie]

Gentle reminder to @fastiller  I think you introduced a typo in your own comment. 

[fastiller]

10 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Gentle reminder to @fastiller  I think you introduced a typo in your own comment. 

Corrected!  Thanks!

[fairffaxx]

1 hour ago, fastiller said:

(I can't tell you how much the single "t" in FASTRACK sends me twitching!).

Don't worry -- "fastrack" isn't a real word anyhow.

[Milburn Stone]

The typo at the beginning of that is the least of its problems.

[Ancaster]

"If you didn't tell me" when the speaker means "If you hadn't told me".

Happens all the time on food shows - "If you didn't tell me this was vegetarian, I'd never have known."

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 5/21/2025 at 5:39 PM, Ancaster said:

"If you didn't tell me" when the speaker means "If you hadn't told me".

I wonder if that's a regional thing.  Like "I know her for 40 years" instead of "I've known her for 40 years."

[fairffaxx]

The language continues to deteriorate (or, as many would say, "evolve"):  "It's not safe for your cat to wonder around the street like that!"

I see "wonder" used instead of "wander" so often, though never the opposite.  One is no easier to spell or say than the other & they don't really sound alike, nor do they mean the same thing -- they're not technical or complicated terms.  How does this happen, & why?  Is it just because people don't read anymore?  So many questions.... 😼

[Quof]

Try making people understand that "weary", "wary" and "leery" are not interchangeable.  

[shapeshifter]

51 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

The language continues to deteriorate (or, as many would say, "evolve"):  "It's not safe for your cat to wonder around the street like that!"

I see "wonder" used instead of "wander" so often, though never the opposite.  One is no easier to spell or say than the other & they don't really sound alike, nor do they mean the same thing -- they're not technical or complicated terms.  How does this happen, & why?  Is it just because people don't read anymore?  So many questions.... 😼

Some American accents in the Northeast do pronounce them the same, so that's probably the origin of the error, and, alas, spell check doesn't see anything amiss.

That said, cats are known to be very curious. Perhaps they do sort of "wonder around"?
😉🐱

[fairffaxx]

There's no question in my mind that cats do wonder while wandering, & vice versa, but that doesn't make me feel better about what's happening to the poor English language.

If the 2 words are pronounced the same down east, you're probably right about the origin -- but who knew that area had such a farflung influence on the rest of the country?  And I agree that spellcheck is much too limited to help with this.

[SoMuchTV]

Recently ran across in a different forum:  "Another word..." instead of "In other words..."

It actually does make some sense, though, as long as you take the word "word" figuratively and not literally.

[Quof]

That's right up there with "nother".   

" A whole nother thing"

Monica Geller "That's not even a word!!!"

[meep.meep]

Monica Geller's friend, "It's a moo point"

I do really like suposably

[Quof]

18 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

"It's a moo point"

That was Joey.  My colleagues and I all boast we will drop that line in Court one day, but so far no one has.  

[fastiller]

 

Nother 'traces back to the early 14th century.'

Merriam-Webster

[SweetieDarling]

21 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Recently ran across in a different forum:  "Another word..." instead of "In other words..."

It actually does make some sense, though, as long as you take the word "word" figuratively and not literally.

That's a new one, but I could see that happening with voice to text

[StatisticalOutlier]

000000

On 5/25/2025 at 9:57 AM, Quof said:

That's right up there with "nother".   

" A whole nother thing"

I wouldn't use it in formal writing, but in speech or an email to a friend, I like it.

[EtheltoTillie]

https://www.wsj.com/business/welcome-in-the-two-word-greeting-thats-taking-over-and-driving-shoppers-nuts-8443421f?st=FAhEKG&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Here's a gift link from today's WSJ.  It discusses a trend where people say "welcome in" instead of "welcome."  I have not heard this one myself, but now I'll be listening for it. 

[fairffaxx]

Stores in the San Francisco Bay Area that are trying to keep track of potential shoplifters (i.e., everyone who enters the premises) all require the cashier at the checkout counter closest to the front door to greet everyone with "Welcome in!" & a great big smile.  Maybe the trend is working its way east.

[Absolom]

I hope not.  This sounds like something that needs to die a quick death.  

[Bastet]

I just heard "Welcome in" for the first time this weekend, said a couple of times by a character in a movie, but I watched quite a few movies this weekend and the character was minor, and in just one scene, so I can't remember which one it was.  I do remember the character was from another country, so I figured it was something said elsewhere, but that article says its origin is unknown.  

[EtheltoTillie]

Here in NYC the only thing I notice is that CVS stores have greeters at the front, but they say "welcome to CVS." 

[annzeepark914]

40 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I just heard "Welcome in" for the first time this weekend, said a couple of times by a character in a movie, but I watched quite a few movies this weekend and the character was minor, and in just one scene, so I can't remember which one it was.  I do remember the character was from another country, so I figured it was something said elsewhere, but that article says its origin is unknown.  

Maybe it's related to "velkommen" which, in German and several other northern European countries, means "welcome". But in so many languages translations, it's not really a word-for-word translation. So I can see someone 🙄 taking the translation too far & adding "in" to just a simple "welcome".  

[Bastet]

26 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Maybe it's related to "velkommen"

That's wondered about in the article:
 

Quote

Speculation abounds on the origin of the phrase. 

Is it a homey Southern greeting that went national? A line from one corporate chain’s training manual that other businesses adopted? An awkward adaptation of “willkommen,” the German word for welcome?

None of those theories are backed by strong evidence, and tracing the roots of “welcome in” has proved to be elusive.

 

Edited Monday at 10:52 PM by Bastet

[annzeepark914]

Well, IMO it's more than an adaptation. It's adding another English word when "velkomm*en* does not mean/translate to welcome in. 

[Zella]

I can't say I have ever heard that phrase before. And I live in a small Southern town that really likes to greet people. LOL

[Yeah No]

8 hours ago, Absolom said:

I hope not.  This sounds like something that needs to die a quick death.  

Agreed. I've never heard it up here in CT and I hope I never do. We're not really the "welcome in" type up here anyway, at least not these days. I don't even see Walmart greeters anymore.

7 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Here in NYC the only thing I notice is that CVS stores have greeters at the front, but they say "welcome to CVS." 

I noticed that. Meanwhile at the CVS stores here in CT you're lucky to see a human being manning the checkout.

We do have some pretty welcoming robots patrolling our supermarkets, though.

[Quof]

I hate unnecessary prepositions.  "Meet people where they are at."  NO.  You meet them "where they are." Full stop.   

Would one say "welcome in" if they were outside?  Serious question. 

[Lugal]

19 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

Stores in the San Francisco Bay Area that are trying to keep track of potential shoplifters (i.e., everyone who enters the premises) all require the cashier at the checkout counter closest to the front door to greet everyone with "Welcome in!" & a great big smile.  Maybe the trend is working its way east.

Having worked retail, I can tell you that the employees probably hate it just as much if not more (and not even for any grammatical problems).  Forced spiels and fake happiness is the ninth circle of retail hell.

[fairffaxx]

For me, dealing with the public at all would be the 9th circle, let alone being forced to smile & pretend to care about their good day!

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, Lugal said:

Having worked retail, I can tell you that the employees probably hate it just as much if not more (and not even for any grammatical problems).  Forced spiels and fake happiness is the ninth circle of retail hell.

Also worked retail, and yep, this is spot on. All the stuff customers complain about, I guarantee, teh employees often complain about it just as much, if not more. It's often not that we can't sympathize with some of the frustrations customers have to deal with, it's more that we just can't, y'know, do much, if anything, about it, 'cause we don't make the rules. 

[fairffaxx]

Like Christmas carols for months on end.  The only thing worse than me having to endure them until I leave the establishment are the poor employees who aren't permitted to escape.  A bank teller assured me that she soon becomes deaf to them & that must be true, but I remind myself every year that it's an even worse travail for them.

[Yeah No]

8 hours ago, Lugal said:

Having worked retail, I can tell you that the employees probably hate it just as much if not more (and not even for any grammatical problems).  Forced spiels and fake happiness is the ninth circle of retail hell.

Although some people like working with the public and for them it's not fake or forced. I used to be one of them when I was young.

[SweetieDarling]

12 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

Like Christmas carols for months on end.  The only thing worse than me having to endure them until I leave the establishment are the poor employees who aren't permitted to escape.  A bank teller assured me that she soon becomes deaf to them & that must be true, but I remind myself every year that it's an even worse travail for them.

I've come to hate most Christmas music thanks to my years in retail. I did  once shock and entertain my husband by singing along with It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year with over emphasis as if I were Andy Williams because I knew it so well. I may not have been sober

[Suzn]

Grammar Experts:

I say "_____ graduated from high school"

What I hear more commonly these days, "_______ graduated high school".

It sounds wrong to me, but I don't know that it is wrong, much less, as to why.

Can anyone help with this?

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, Suzn said:

Grammar Experts:

I say "_____ graduated from high school"

What I hear more commonly these days, "_______ graduated high school".

It sounds wrong to me, but I don't know that it is wrong, much less, as to why.

Can anyone help with this?

Well, If you worked for my pedantic old school copy editor chief at Redbook magazine in 1980 or so (I have posed about her here before), you would have been forced to use "I was graduated from high school."  She never met an idiom she didn't hate.  Back in those days real people had already dropped that old-time usage and said "I graduated from high school" and also said "I graduated high school." The latter usage has been around for a long time.

Anyway, graduation used to be something done to you.  Now the graduate is the one doing the graduating.  

Edited 21 hours ago by EtheltoTillie

[Crashcourse]

2 hours ago, Suzn said:

Grammar Experts:

I say "_____ graduated from high school"

What I hear more commonly these days, "_______ graduated high school".

It sounds wrong to me, but I don't know that it is wrong, much less, as to why.

Can anyone help with this?

One of my biggest pet peeves.  Whenever I hear "graduated high school" or "graduated college" I'm waiting for smoke to come out of my ears.

[Suzn]

That's how it strikes me, but I really didn't know whether it was actually wrong.

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, Crashcourse said:

One of my biggest pet peeves.  Whenever I hear "graduated high school" or "graduated college" I'm waiting for smoke to come out of my ears.

Yes, this version is less "classy."  

[Quof]

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Now the graduate is the one doing the graduating.  

Including middle school, kindergarten, and preschool.   Complete with cap and gown, and Pomp and Circumstance. 

[shapeshifter]

A political figure (not that one) was speaking before a bank of microphones today and said:

• "I don't take it personal." 
  "We don't take it personal."
  "Differences are not personal."

This person was reared in the south and is a first-generation college graduate, who also obtained a law degree. He has no discernable accent. 
Even if I didn't loathe him for what he represents politically and otherwise, and, conversely, even though I do appreciate that in many ways he made the best of the hand life dealt him, and, furthermore, even though I can suppose he might have repeated the grammatically incorrect turn of phrase because he, like I (we?) sensed it was incorrect, and, finally, even though he managed to self-edit the sentence to use the word correctly the 3rd time, it still made me stop the YouTube video of the CNN recording — maybe because I just wanted him to say "personally"?

Edited 20 hours ago by shapeshifter

[isalicat]

20 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Although some people like working with the public and for them it's not fake or forced. I used to be one of them when I was young.

And I'm still one of them...which is why I volunteer at my local food pantry. Interacting with new people is a joy to me as I find most everyone very interesting. Used to drive my husband crazy as I wound up in long conversations with complete strangers when standing in line for stuff and thereby forgetting what I was there to do in the first place! 😺 The other part of this is that random people tell me very intimate things about themselves without any prompting. I think if there was such a thing as many earthly lifetimes I was destined in another life to be a therapeutic psychologist or even better, a bartender!

Grammar content: At the pantry, I call out to the next person in line: Come on down...(like on a game show) even though there is no "down"...but they always know what I mean.

Edited 19 hours ago by isalicat

[fairffaxx]

I, too, miss adverbs.  There's a big new sign downtown in my city that instructs us to "DRIVE SLOW".  Of course I agree with the sentiment, but I'm always tempted to speed up in protest of the assault on grammar.  😾

[SoMuchTV]

ABC news reports tonight that the Obamas’ “oldest” daughter is doing something or other. No, they have two daughters, so she’s the older daughter. But just after that story, the same anchor reported on a pair of eagle chicks, and correctly referred to the older and younger one. 

[fastiller]

Similar to what @SoMuchTVnoted: my late husband was a church-going Catholic & I would occasionally attend Mass w him. When Pope Francis was first elected, the priest called him 'Francis the First'.  Nope. Can't be the First until there's a Second.

[chitowngirl]

43 minutes ago, fastiller said:

Similar to what @SoMuchTVnoted: my late husband was a church-going Catholic & I would occasionally attend Mass w him. When Pope Francis was first elected, the priest called him 'Francis the First'.  Nope. Can't be the First until there's a Second.

Along those lines, don’t get me started on “ The First Annual…”.

[Mondrianyone]

1 hour ago, fairffaxx said:

There's a big new sign downtown in my city that instructs us to "DRIVE SLOW".  Of course I agree with the sentiment, but I'm always tempted to speed up in protest of the assault on grammar. 

Except it isn't. In that context "slow" is an example of a flat adverb (also called a bare adverb), of which there are quite a few. We say "go straight, then turn right," not "go straightly, then turn rightly." Most of us "work hard" rather than "hardly work" (yuk, yuk). See also "swing low, sweet chariot" and "that girl will go far." Some adverbs alternate between "-ly" forms and flat (or bare) forms, some don't. It's just that the flat form is seldom (hey, there's one!) acknowledged. Now I'm going to go off and split a few infinitives, just for fun.  

[annzeepark914]

2 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

I, too, miss adverbs.  There's a big new sign downtown in my city that instructs us to "DRIVE SLOW".  Of course I agree with the sentiment, but I'm always tempted to speed up in protest of the assault on grammar.  😾

I say you should sneak up on this sign in the middle of the night and add the "ly".  If need be, I'll start a Go Fund Me for your bail 😎