S03.E07: Part Seven - Dominion

[PurpleTentacle]

-.-

• I'm feeling like a broken record, but changelings could always mimic internal organs and were indistingushable on scanners. That is why they were almost impossible to detect and why they could infiltrate the highest echolons of starfleet. So the only upgrade they got is that now they'll pass a blood test. Big whoop, even Sisko's father was smart enough to figure out an easy way to circumvent that one without changing the changelings.
• At least we now have an explaination why these changelings look different and got a massive downgrade. Too bad that our characters shouldn't have known that. They don't even consider that the changelings could have turned into objects. Because obviously these new changelings can't do that and the writers know that. They just forgot that the characters don't.
• On the flip side the reason for these new changelings is dumb. Why would you try to make them more effective, before trying to actually get them under your control? Of course the experiments made them effectively worse, but the writers don't seem to know that and think they are better, so what gives? What is the motivation for the federation to upgrade their enemies?
• That whole lab setup was ridiculous. Yeah sure, just leave the changelings on a table with your back turned to them and no security. I'm surprised it took that long for them to break out. Maybe Vadic is just melodramatic, and they "endured" exactly 5 seconds of torture and then made like a tree and got out of there...
• My prediction that Jack's visions are going to be some disappointing bullshit seems to be coming true.
• "A Vulcan would never go to Aklion 7 after the anti-Kolinahr demonstrations." Ah yes Vulcans, notoriusly petty, unreasonable and unlogical. Holding grudges forever...
• "Only the real Tuvok would know that we played Kal-Toh, which means he must have told you." What do you mean?! You just told that changeling that you and Tuvok played Kal-Toh. He had at worst a 50/50 chance to guess that you weren't lying about that.

      

• Also they need changelings to fake people over coms? Seems like a deepfake would do...
• What happened to "all ships in the fleet talk to each other, so they'll find us soon"? Seems like that isn't a thing anymore and now they need to be traced through coms.
• Why is everybody dressed in black all of a sudden? Is that outlaw requirement? Did they spend resources to replicate those clothes or did they have them lying around, because that sort of thing is bound to happen?
• Changelings seem to come with variable plot armour. It takes a very wide range of direct hits to take them down. Sometimes one is enough, sometimes two. Vadic tanked like a million. I guess it pays to be the miniboss.

I think I'll go watch some Phineas and Ferb. An evil scientist being constantly defeated by a platapus in a hat seems more realistic...

Edited March 31, 2023 by PurpleTentacle

[paigow]

Vadic got Wolverine/ Deadpool DNA mixed in

[Francie]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I realize there are three (?) more episodes to go but this story should have been plotted better.

Fixed it. :)

What plot? 

[PurpleTentacle]

On 3/30/2023 at 3:05 PM, greekmom said:

This should have been a Sisko story.

Ideally this should have been a nobody-story.

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I get why it doesn't work for some, but I continue to love Amanda Plummer's scenery chewing and camp.

Well at least that is a choice and fun. Everything else is just so "meh to bad".

6 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

but Janeway is insufferable. (Again, that may be my bias against her for Mrs. Columbo.) 

Nah, that's just her vibe. You have to roll with it and eventually it will become part of her charme.

I recommend this guy for his evil Janeway impressions (and very insightfull reviews).

5 hours ago, Francie said:

I don't begrudge Jeri Ryan. And I'm happy that her fans get to see her, whether they either like what storyline she's been given or just like seeing the actress again. I'm calling out the show -- this season, what have you -- for being a bait and switch. Don't invite a TNG trekker to a party and then not throw a TNG party.

To be fair here, this is advertised as Picard season 3, not "TNG the reunion show". It was advertised that most TNG characters would be returning and they have. But that's about it. Of course this isn't a continuation of only TNG and I don't think anybody thought it would be. This is a long standing franchise and of course the writers are trying to harvest nostalgia from everywhere.

That being said, why do you want this to be more TNG focused in the first place? It's not good. Do you want these writers to destroy more of TNG canon and characters? Because if they focused on that, they absolutely would.

5 hours ago, Francie said:

And if the showrunners were going to tap plot points from other series to create the "plot" for this season, then take into account that any new viewers or TNG-only fans need to be introduced to those concepts - and hopefully in an engaging, interesting way.

This isn't the 90s anymore. With Streaming it's kinda assumed that you have watched the shows that came before the current one, if they are in the same continuity.

Why aren't you complaining that this show relies heavily on TNG characters and knowledge about them? Because you've seen that show?

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is where I'm really getting frustrated with this show (yes, it took me this long). They are dragging out this Jack mystery way too long. It's all the more irritating when they have a character like Vadic turn to the camera and dramatically say "It's time for you to know who you really are Jack!' and then just leave us hanging. It's the narrative equivalent of "I know something you don't know neener neener neener."

JJ. Abrams taught his "kids" one thing and one thing only: MYSTERY BOX!

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

So in other words, many fans think they've followed the path of the Star Wars sequels.  They've ruined the existing characters, created crappy new ones, and are talent-less hacks who somehow make each successive installment worse than what came before.  I just bet they wish they could replicate the far bigger word of mouth and profitability.

Well these are the same people. So it isn't that surprising that they did the same thing to both franchises.

4 hours ago, Francie said:

Anyway, back to Picard. I just posted in the media thread a quote from Patrick Stewart where he says there'll be a question hanging at the end, that he's not necessarily done with ST, and that he's had a falling out with some unnamed people. 

Considering season 1 and 2 were (mostly) so shit because the massive creative control Patrick Stewart had over them, I'd much rather he would be done with ST.

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

"A Vulcan would never go to Aklion 7 after the anti-Kolinahr demonstrations." Ah yes Vulcans, notoriusly petty, unreasonable and unlogical. Holding grudges forever...

Many Vulcans have been portrayed as dickish, though.  Despite their logic they can be just as petty as humans (see Sarek with Spock in TOS).  Then there's what T'Pring pulled during Amok Time. 

[PurpleTentacle]

45 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Many Vulcans have been portrayed as dickish, though.  Despite their logic they can be just as petty as humans (see Sarek with Spock in TOS).  Then there's what T'Pring pulled during Amok Time. 

What does dickishness have to do with this though? How is it logical for an entire race to never go to a planet because there were some protests against part of their culture there? Especially under these circumstances.

Assuming this would have been the real Tuvok, would he have really have said "I know you just said the changelings have undermined the entire federation and that that planet is the safest meeting place you know, but nah dog, I won't go there, because some protestors there have hurt my feelings, that I try to surpress and substitute with logic."

That was about the worst changeling-test immaginable and had 7 not thrown in the mind meld trick question, I'd be extremely annoyed. As it is I'm just mildy annoyed.

Also unrelated, Tuvok was never one of the dickish Vulcans and 7 would know that.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

To be fair here, this is advertised as Picard season 3, not "TNG the reunion show".

It literally was, though. 

"TNG reunion injects a little fun into Star Trek: Picard’s uneven final season" ~ARS Technica

"‘Star Trek: Picard’ Season 3 Finds Its Magic by Reuniting the ‘Next Generation’ Crew" ~Rolling Stone

"Star Trek: Picard season 3 reunites the entire TNG cast for the first time in 21 years. It's the franchise's biggest event since Kirk met Picard." ~Screen Rant. 

"Picard season 3's Next Generation reunion isn't what you think it is" (tagline -- it's more) 

Terry & Co have been selling TNG cast showing up loud and proud in an effort to get new Paramount+ subscriptions and clicks.  I got oversold. That's on me. And caveat emptor, I shoulda read the fine print. I'm not buying anything else Paramount+ is selling. Fool me once and all.

But the level of TNG cast involvement in this season was not sold as, "Hey, in the final 2 episodes of this show there'll be a TNG reunion of the OG 7." I got sold something much more than that, and I was specifically told I didn't need to watch Picard 1 or 2, something I was glad to hear.

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

This isn't the 90s anymore. With Streaming it's kinda assumed that you have watched the shows that came before the current one, if they are in the same continuity.

 

I was to assume I needed to watch DS9 and Voyager to watch a show called Picard? If the show was called Avery or Janeway, I wouldn't have assumed I'd get one stitch of TNG. 

As to, 

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Considering season 1 and 2 were (mostly) so shit because the massive creative control Patrick Stewart had over them, I'd much rather he would be done with ST.

and

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

JJ. Abrams taught his "kids" one thing and one thing only: MYSTERY BOX!

We agree on more than we disagree on. I love Patrick, but I fear his ego has been in the way of a lot of good potential content.  

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That being said, why do you want this to be more TNG focused in the first place? It's not good. Do you want these writers to destroy more of TNG canon and characters? Because if they focused on that, they absolutely would.

Oh, and on this, I keep reminding myself of that! I mean, I see what they did to Beverly, and I have to be a little grateful they've kept Spiner's and Sirtis's involvement as low as they have. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Are Jack's eyes really glowing red? Why doesn't Sidney see it? She should be going "Hey! Your eyes just glowed red! What's up with that?" And if she can't see it, why do we see it?

 

I hope she saw it. Something like that shouldn't be something just for us to see. We already know something ain't right with that man. Plus, it makes sense for her to pull her phaser on him after that nonsense with Vadic's henchman.

[Tyro49]

They also said that JLP didn't actally have the disease he was diagnosed with, that was something else. So that takes this back another generation; maybe JLP isn't who he thinks he is, either.

[TVbitch]

Um ..er ..uh. Oof. That was painful. 

Did I miss the very special episode when Jack and Sidney fell in luv? I guess a young woman's fancy turns to romance when rabid changlings are about to annihilate everyone. 

At this point, just have Wesley help Picard make the painful decision to go back in time and not boink Crusher that night in an effort to prevent the total destruction of the Federation TNG legacy. 

[Affogato]

On 3/30/2023 at 2:22 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Plus let's not forget the Federation didn't exactly offer the cure to the Changelings the moment they found out about it.  Bashir and O'Brien stole it for Odo and Odo was the one who gave it to the female Changeling with the promise of taking it back to the Great Link.  Yes, the Federation went along with it, but they had to be forced into action.

How is it a Picard story?  Maybe it's shaping up to be a situation where he makes a big speech about what the Federation is supposed to stand for. 

Vaddic points this out, too. That it was stolen. O'Brien was a good man, but the Federation in general is shown to have questionable morals.

Star Trek: Picard starts with Picard having retreated to his ancestral home, disillusioned with the Federation and its values. He has some subsequent adventures which remind him of how bad things were in the past and the good the Federation did and may continue to do. He works through some of his past trauma, seeing hope both in family and in the Borg. In this season he is asked to put those new realizations to the test. He has a son, and an old friend kept him from him; the federation again has done something terrible to another race, this time the founders, and they are not the bad guys here. The timing is right for this story,a nd it allows him to bring the show around to his c onclusion  about the future and value of the Federation.

17 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

What does dickishness have to do with this though? How is it logical for an entire race to never go to a planet because there were some protests against part of their culture there? Especially under these circumstances.

Assuming this would have been the real Tuvok, would he have really have said "I know you just said the changelings have undermined the entire federation and that that planet is the safest meeting place you know, but nah dog, I won't go there, because some protestors there have hurt my feelings, that I try to surpress and substitute with logic."

That was about the worst changeling-test immaginable and had 7 not thrown in the mind meld trick question, I'd be extremely annoyed. As it is I'm just mildy annoyed.

Also unrelated, Tuvok was never one of the dickish Vulcans and 7 would know that.

I think the point is that Tuvok would have known that Seven wouldn't have suggested it. It may have been safe for her, but the implication, too, is that it is not that safe for Tuvok.

[Affogato]

On 3/31/2023 at 7:42 AM, greekmom said:

While I do buy that Section 31 could have been experimenting with the Changeling POWs during the war wouldn't a peace treaty signed with the female Changeling ending the war be in agreement of exchange of POWs? Which regardless of Section 31's secrecy include those that were held there. 

Plus, how would Vadic or the rogue Changelings know about Picard's body being held at the Station? Picard left his mortal body for the android one 2 years ago.  I was under the impression that Vadic and the rest of the Changelings rose up and fought their captors at the station more than 3 years ago (the war ended 20+ yrs previously).  Well before Picard "died".   Plus, how would Odo know about them in the Great Link if they have never joined the link?  And Odo being such an upstanding person - wouldn't he have informed Kira about these Changelings if he knew about them, so that they can be brought back to the Great Link instead of left to be tortured? 

The writing sucks. Big time. 

Section 31 is secret from a lot of the federation, too.

Vadic belongs to a group that has infiltrated many areas of the Federation. They would have access to a lot of intelligence. They also know about section 31 so they would make a special effort to infiltrate them as much as possible. Section 31 can damage the federation, as well as the changelings.

Odo knew there was a group plotting against the federation. They aren't part of the great link, and probably can't join without damaging the great link. That is why he had limited information. Some changelings joined and accepted the physical change, which would have been the point where someone in the link would know what was happening.

 

On 3/31/2023 at 3:56 AM, Chyromaniac said:

“The Face” is credited as Garth Kemp, who- as far as I can tell- is a voiceover guy in LA.  My guess is that it’s only going to be a CGI character, so they didn’t need a recognizable performer for the role (Trek alumnus or otherwise).

 

Yes, thanks. I wonder what is going on with that. There is so much going on, I think they need more episodes to resolve it.

[AllyB]

When Seven deduced that Tuvok was a changeling and the Titan crew was downhearted that they have no contacts they can trust. All I could think about was what happened when they contacted Deanna. Because surely they contacted her first. Her husband is missing. But also, she's former military of commander rank with an actual superpower of being able to interpret people's intentions over a communication screen. She'd be incredibly useful.

Either Beverly or Worf would be able to tell if they are talking to Deanna or a changeling in under a minute. Then they have someone on board who could quickly root out any changeling posing as Titan crew. And who could either read the deception from any changeling they encounter on screen. Or if they are blocking her, point out that someone who shouldn't be able to block her is now blocking her. 

So either no-one on the crew thought to contact Will's wife and most useful person they know in the current circumstances. Or they did but just aren't mentioning it for no reason other than keeping the audience in the dark, which is stupid and frustrating. 

 

[Francie]

Here's probably the best example of what I was sold, and what I thought I'd be getting this season. Silly me. 

[Chyromaniac]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

So either no-one on the crew thought to contact Will's wife and most useful person they know in the current circumstances. Or they did but just aren't mentioning it for no reason other than keeping the audience in the dark, which is stupid and frustrating. 

But we already know Deanna is being held captive on the Shrike.  Vadic was ordered to find Picard by going through his friends and associates- surely Deanna is at the top of that list, which is why she was taken.  So why do we need them to try to contact her now, just to show something that we learned last episode?  Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t need characters to do something that I already know is pointless, just to satisfy every narrative check mark.  Besides, the reveal with Tuvok (in addition to being a great scene for Jeri and Tim) set the stakes for this episode just fine- Picard and crew are on their own.

On 3/31/2023 at 10:35 AM, Peace 47 said:

Gates McFadden is crushing it on the acting, but in this ep, when she and Picard decided to commit some war crimes together right before the force fields fell, I was like, who is this lady?  This lady who was anti-Borg genocide.

I think we are seeing a Beverly who is faced with continually trying to protect her child from a threat that none of them fully understand.  It’s one thing to (rightly) speak out against a preemptive attack against the Borg, spoken from a position of relative safety.  To me, this situation is more like when Wesley was about to be executed by the Edo- and Beverly was (also rightly) begging Picard to toss out the Prime Directive to save him.  Now, faced again with the prospect of losing a child, she and Picard have a very serious discussion about how far they are willing to go to defeat the Changelings.  The answer is that they don’t really know.

For me, that’s what makes this a powerful scene, and one that’s in keeping with their characters.  We know that these two are fundamentally good people, and even the thought that they might take such drastic measures seems to trouble them deeply.  If they had been all, “hell yeah- let’s murder them all!” - that would have been a betrayal of their legacy.  But instead they consider that it’s a decision that they might have to make, but that they don’t know if they could bring themselves to do.  It’s great acting - and great writing.

[Francie]

 

34 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

But we already know Deanna is being held captive on the Shrike.

We do. Except if we doubt that it's her. Or, like me at this point, don't care whether it's really her or a changeling. But the point was an internal one -- why on earth wouldn't the crew have thought of that? At least bring it up to explain why it isn't possible. 

As for that being a pointless thing to show, we had to endure the first episode where we see Beverly send off a comm message, and then watch Picard spend minutes going, "Oh, gee, who could this be?" So these showrunners aren't exactly courteous to the audience like that. 

We also can't rule out that the Troi being held on the ship is a changeling and that the real Deanna will show up. And that Picard & Co. failed to mention contacting her for the very reasons AllyB proffers (i.e. "BIG reveal!" wait, no, not so much?)

You know, someone else point this out elsewhere (so giving credit elsewhere), but it bears mentioning -- is Crazy Amanda just lucky that the one associate of Picard's she picked up -- Deanna -- was the loved one of the one person captured -- Riker. Or did she also have Alexander stuck in a room, too, in case she was able to capture Worf. 

34 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

I think we are seeing a Beverly who is faced with continually trying to protect her child from a threat that none of them fully understand.  It’s one thing to (rightly) speak out against a preemptive attack against the Borg, spoken from a position of relative safety.  To me, this situation is more like when Wesley was about to be executed by the Edo- and Beverly was (also rightly) begging Picard to toss out the Prime Directive to save him.  

I would argue there's quite a distinction between actively harming someone physically and choosing to not to abide by another's laws and removing oneself from the situation instead. Yes, in Justice, the crew debated the possible impact their refusal to allow Wesley being executed for falling into a flower bed could cause their society.  In both situations, Beverly argued for what she thought was the more ethical stance: innocent people should not be put to death for "crimes" they had no idea they were committing and this was not simply an ethnocentric viewpoint that needed to be put aside to conform with another society's value system; and captured people should not be tortured. 

This present scenario is much more similar to I, Borg, where Beverly did take a ethical stance against harming Hugh. 

I just can't buy the argument that a mama bear is against torture, unless her own child is at stake. Then it's "let's waterboard him!" I don't view Beverly's ethics as situational like that. Her own child or not. And I'm also not big on the notion of "a mother will do anything for her child" reason for a woman going against her principles. I'm never going to see Beverly through that prism. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Francie

[ML89]

Another 40 some odd minutes of being stupid for the plot to work, a lot of sound and fury to get there. The only Vadic moment I liked was her recognizing good cop bad cop. I hope Picard and Crusher’s conversation was a ruse because, “please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons” you two. I did like Seven busting Tuvok, when the modern polygraph failed. 
 

So did the Titan beam over all their security so that Jack and Crash had to go fight the bad guys? I would love to hear La’an from SNW’s commentary on all this. I was honestly expecting someone to get sliced by a forcefield. 
 

I had forgotten how much I never cared for Data’s many incarnations.
 

This is pure speculation but if Riker and Troi are on the Shrike, is Vadic’s security as bad as the Titan’s and we’ll open next week with Riker in charge?

[marinw]

Shaw is really taking a beating.

[Peace 47]

 

3 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

I think we are seeing a Beverly who is faced with continually trying to protect her child from a threat that none of them fully understand. 

It must suck for her.  I wonder how she is going to feel when whatever Vadic alluded to in the interrogation scene is fully revealed (about how Jack was never “for Beverly”).  Implying … what?  She may have been impregnated with a genetically modified embryo with the express purpose that the child would eventually, inevitably be tracked down for his next purpose?  That she and Jack have been stalked all this time, and telling Jean-Luc about his son would have had no bearing on ending up in the mortal danger she was trying to avoid?  I’d have a nervous breakdown at that point.

They have put such emphasis on Beverly being so traumatized from losing her first son that this is the unfortunate result—that she is willing to do war crimes and hide secret children for 20 years.  But I’m confused why Wesley can’t see or speak to her anymore, or ever again.  The Traveler from TNG was traveling on this plane of existence with a Federation scientist when we met him.  He lived on a planet within traveling distance of a Federation starship (from Beverly’s collapsing universe TNG episode).  Why can’t Wesley exist in the here and now every once and awhile?

Oh really, Wesley?  You’re exploring the unlimited possibilities of existence?  That’s great, now squeeze in a call to your momma every Sunday you little ingrate.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Peace 47

[paigow]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

Shaw is really taking a beating.

He is now emotionally compromised and unfit for command... thereby clearing the path for Captain Dear Seven Hansen 

Edited April 2, 2023 by paigow

[benteen]

Amanda Plummer was pretty great in this episode but cry me a river with the Changlings. You know what they were doing when the genocidal Federation was giving them the cure? They were actively trying to exterminate the Cardassians. That's what the poor, noble Changlings, were doing. That cure was the only thing that stopped the Dominion from wiping out the Cardassians and fighting the Federation Alliance to the bloody end. The Changlings were genocidal tyrants who genetically created species and then created an addictive drug to control them. 

I see what the writers are doing here. There were definitely wrongs committed on both sides. The amazing "In the Pale Moonlight" was a great example of this. But I'm tired of the Federation now being portrayed as a government no better than the Dominion or the Romulans. Deep Space 9 was my favorite of the Star Trek shows and I liked their more nuanced, darker take on things. Instead of building on that, the writers want to go all dark like just about every other show out there when portraying the Federation. Three seasons in, the writers are still desperate to try to turn this show into the overrated Battlestar Galactica reboot. Was the utopia Gene Roddenberry (who was no saint himself) realistic? No and it hampered Star Trek as the series continued. But it is what it is and it's certainly unique among the mostly nihilistic shows around nowadays. On DS9, a writer wanted to show that paradise exist but you have to work your ass off to obtain it...maybe something to consider.

My issues aside and continuing plot issues, I still very much enjoyed this episode. Tim Russ's return as "Tuvok" was great and he killed it in his brief time. Spiner did his usual great work as Data/Lore and Burton wss amazing in his scene begging Data for his help. That is the scene I most wanted to see as the Data/Geordi friendship was the standout of TNG. Exciting stuff all around.

During the Dominion War on DS9, the only Changling in the Alpha Quadrant wss the Female Founder but this retcon makes sense. You would think that there would have been more of them in the galaxy during the war. Section 31 definitely would have been experimenting on them. DS9 is the only Star Trek series or movie that has ever utilized S31 well. Picard has done a the best job portraying them in over twenty years.

I agree this would have made an amazing Sisko and DS9 story. But you can still do it with Picard though I would note that the decision to withhold the cure was made by Starfleet Command, not Picard or Sisko. Sisko knew about it because he was right on the heart of the war but it wasn't his decision.

Edited April 2, 2023 by benteen

[Joimiaroxeu]

My favorite comment from reddit:

Quote

Lore is like a USB drive you find in a parking lot

 

[Starchild]

On 3/31/2023 at 1:11 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I get why it doesn't work for some, but I continue to love Amanda Plummer's scenery chewing and camp.

So many angles where she looked so much like her dad. I got nostalgic.

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, Starchild said:

So many angles where she looked so much like her dad. I got nostalgic.

If we see a Changeling that looks like Julie Andrews...  So long, farewell

 

[Cattoy]

10 hours ago, benteen said:

Amanda Plummer was pretty great in this episode but cry me a river with the Changlings. You know what they were doing when the genocidal Federation was giving them the cure? They were actively trying to exterminate the Cardassians.

And before the war, there was the quickening - a disease that doomed an entire species to a slow, painful death over generations as a lesson to others. The Founders made no secret of their contempt for "solids" and their desire to eliminate the Federation. The only solids they semi-trusted were the slave races they genetically engineered to think of them as gods or controlled by an addiction. The Changelings were not nice people. They weren't the victims. They started the war by destroying entire colonies without warning.

As for the female Changeling being the only other one in the Alpha Quadrant, that's not true. Martok, Bashir and others were replaced by Changelings in order to start the Klingon-Cardassian War. They tried to drag the Federation into that too, in order to weaken them before invading. There was also the Changeling Odo accidentally killed. We have no idea how many other people were replaced beyond those, or how many potted plants are still hanging around plotting genocide.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Cattoy said:

And before the war, there was the quickening -

They also had contempt for IP rights....

[MissLucas]

14 hours ago, benteen said:

Deep Space 9 was my favorite of the Star Trek shows and I liked their more nuanced, darker take on things. Instead of building on that, the writers want to go all dark like just about every other show out there when portraying the Federation. Three seasons in, the writers are still desperate to try to turn this show into the overrated Battlestar Galactica reboot. Was the utopia Gene Roddenberry (who was no saint himself) realistic? No and it hampered Star Trek as the series continued. But it is what it is a d it's certainly unique among the mostly nihilistic shows around nowadays. On DS9, a writer wanted to show that paradise exost but you have to work your ass off to obtain it...maybe something to consider.

This!!! I'm also tired of this continued deconstruction of Starfleet. Starting with season one of Picard when Starfleet let the Romulans to their own devices. It was a thinly veiled allegory for the current refugee crisis around the globe that went exactly nowhere beyond 'Starfleet sucks now!' Section 31 has become the sledgehammer in the writers toolkit to further that narrative and I'm not sure whether I really want to see the spin-off coming into existence anymore - despite my love for Michelle Yeoh.

 

[paigow]

27 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

This!!! I'm also tired of this continued deconstruction of Starfleet. 

TNG Season 1 - Tasha Yar was fully immersed in the Starfleet cult... Starfleet healed me... channel rage into something constructive.... etc... possibly this is what triggered the endgame of breaking the Starfleet / Federation halo... 

[Starchild]

4 hours ago, Cattoy said:

There was also the Changeling Odo accidentally killed. We have no idea how many other people were replaced beyond those, or how many potted plants are still hanging around plotting genocide.

I recall that as he died, that Changeling whispered "We're everywhere." So yeah, I would expect there would have been plenty of them beyond the ones we saw. We could assume that after developing the blood test they were all rooted out, or perhaps they've remained in deep cover since the war.

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, Cattoy said:

And before the war, there was the quickening - a disease that doomed an entire species to a slow, painful death over generations as a lesson to others. The Founders made no secret of their contempt for "solids" and their desire to eliminate the Federation. The only solids they semi-trusted were the slave races they genetically engineered to think of them as gods or controlled by an addiction. The Changelings were not nice people. They weren't the victims. They started the war by destroying entire colonies without warning.

As for the female Changeling being the only other one in the Alpha Quadrant, that's not true. Martok, Bashir and others were replaced by Changelings in order to start the Klingon-Cardassian War. They tried to drag the Federation into that too, in order to weaken them before invading. There was also the Changeling Odo accidentally killed. We have no idea how many other people were replaced beyond those, or how many potted plants are still hanging around plotting genocide.

And yet, you can be a victim even if you are a bad person. Also your bad behavior does not excuse anyone else’s bad behavior. 

[benteen]

The Changlings were monsters and when Section 31 gave them them a taste of their own medicine, it seems some of them threw a sustained hissy fit.

I'm also tired of the continued deconstruction and destruction of Starfleet. You can prop up the legacy characters without tearing down everything around them.

Edited April 2, 2023 by benteen

[Prevailing Wind]

I watched this again to see if it's more understandable. When the force fields go down & Sydney is about to be attacked, she pleads mentally with Jack, "What should I do?"  His eyes turn red and the camera goes back to her and, I swear, her eyes had a red tinge, too.  Did anyone else see that?  I was wondering, in case I wasn't imagining it, is Sydney "special" too, or was that just a reflection of Jack's red eyes?

[paigow]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

The Changlings were monsters

Unfortunately, O.G. Changelings resemble those kindly aliens that seeded the galaxy... [TNG Scavenger Hunt proved that DNA links between Romulans, Klingons and Humans are not accidental] so something makes them sympathetic... I know it is the same actress

  

3 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I swear, her eyes had a red tinge, too.  Did anyone else see that?

I saw it... Maybe indicates an active psychic link, not necessarily that she has superpowers

[ML89]

18 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I watched this again to see if it's more understandable. When the force fields go down & Sydney is about to be attacked, she pleads mentally with Jack, "What should I do?"  His eyes turn red and the camera goes back to her and, I swear, her eyes had a red tinge, too.  Did anyone else see that?  I was wondering, in case I wasn't imagining it, is Sydney "special" too, or was that just a reflection of Jack's red eyes?

I saw it too - it was definitely intentional because there was a closeup. I thought “is Sydney special” then she said something about Jack being in her head, so I’m not sure. Maybe he’s some sort of catalyst. Poor Bev, both her kids have some sort of special destiny.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:14 PM, Peace 47 said:

But I’m confused why Wesley can’t see or speak to her anymore, or ever again.

It's because Wesley is secretly the villain.

[paigow]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:59 PM, Affogato said:

And yet, you can be a victim even if you are a bad person. Also your bad behavior does not excuse anyone else’s bad behavior. 

Generally true... although there are definitely a few historical outliers that warrant an exception... 

[txhorns79]

On 4/2/2023 at 5:51 PM, ML89 said:

I saw it too - it was definitely intentional because there was a closeup. I thought “is Sydney special” then she said something about Jack being in her head, so I’m not sure. Maybe he’s some sort of catalyst. Poor Bev, both her kids have some sort of special destiny.

I think Jack set up a psychic link with her, and essentially controlled her movements to get around the henchmen.  That was why she pulled her gun on him when they were clear, because she was frightened by what happened and wasn't sure what Jack was. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I'll give them points for the Snake Plissken reference.

On 3/31/2023 at 12:25 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

-.-

• They don't even consider that the changelings could have turned into objects. Because obviously these new changelings can't do that and the writers know that. 

What's especially silly about this is that the changelings can obviously mimic inanimate clothing and accessories, so there really isn't any reason they shouldn't also be able to imitate chairs, boxes, statuary, and the like.

On 4/1/2023 at 5:01 PM, marinw said:

Shaw is really taking a beating.

Todd Stashwick is to Terry Matalas what Bruce Campbell is to Sam Raimi.

On 4/2/2023 at 4:32 PM, Prevailing Wind said:

I watched this again to see if it's more understandable. When the force fields go down & Sydney is about to be attacked, she pleads mentally with Jack, "What should I do?"  His eyes turn red and the camera goes back to her and, I swear, her eyes had a red tinge, too.  Did anyone else see that?  I was wondering, in case I wasn't imagining it, is Sydney "special" too, or was that just a reflection of Jack's red eyes?

Not your imagination. I thought it was pretty clear that Jack "changeling hiveminded" her. She was duplicating his movements as he performed them after he mindlnked to her.

On 4/3/2023 at 5:59 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

It's because Wesley is secretly the villain.

That explains a lot. Geordi said that Lore's purpose was to cause Chaos. Data was clearly hacked, and not by Lore, but by this guy:

[Prevailing Wind]

I wish Chaos would show up on the new Leverage.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I'll give them points for the Snake Plissken reference.

I totally missed that... was there also another Pat Benatar song I slept through?

[tv-talk]

On 3/30/2023 at 2:38 PM, Francie said:

Maybe it's shaping up to be a situation where he makes a big speech about what the Federation is supposed to stand for.

Oh Lord, please NO. I rather like that finally Picard seems like an old man who is way past his prime and while still effective isnt the driving force behind everything. He does not appear more competent or capable than many of the other characters. That is a good thing. Please let's not have everything hang on one of his impassioned speeches.

13 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Did anyone else see that?  I was wondering, in case I wasn't imagining it, is Sydney "special" too, or was that just a reflection of Jack's red eyes?

For sure her eyes turned red. I took it to be Jack taking over her mind, or at least messing around in it, which is why initially she pointed her phaser at him after the baddy was dispatched. Wth is Jack anyway? Does anyone really care at this point? They are not doing a good job with him. More Data, please, lots more. And Worf, Geordi, 7-9, all the old gang!

[ML89]

13 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

That explains a lot. Geordi said that Lore's purpose was to cause Chaos. Data was clearly hacked, and not by Lore, but by this guy:

Seven: My friends warned me about you....

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I wish Chaos would show up on the new Leverage.

Why not throw in Mayhem

[tv-talk]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:13 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Do you want these writers to destroy more of TNG canon and characters?

I'd just rather see Worf than 40% of whatever is going on with Jack.  This next episode had better be heavy with Data, I really dont care how the changeling ptsd psycho is feeling at this point.

[Sandman]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:28 PM, dwmarch said:

Well, nice to see Tuvok again, even if it's a fake version of him. Apparently he is a Captain now.

I liked how Seven laid the trap for Fake-vok, after it seemed like he passed the first test. Jeri Ryan did a nice job with that scene. 

Ucch, again with Lore? I get that Data is the most special positronic snowflake ever ever (and every time he comes back he’s more miraculous than we knew before), but Lore is that one outlier in your group of friends that you’ve known seemingly forever and no one can remember ever really liking, but nobody wants to go through the drama of breaking things off with. He just keeps turning up randomly, making every conversation about him, and annoying the living hell out of everyone.

”Say, Lore? Have you met my new friend Mr. Airlock? He’s dying to meet you! Right this way…”

Though I did enjoy the scene of Geordi trying to get through to Data. (Even though the “I know you’re in there” bit definitely has its own page on TV Tropes by now, it’s such a workhorse.)

Edited April 6, 2023 by Sandman
Yep.

[Maverick]

 RE: Lore.  Count your blessings.  Masaka could be next. 

[Francie]

55 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 RE: Lore.  Count your blessings.  Masaka could be next. 

Deep cut. I love it! I can't Mask my amusement.

 

8 hours ago, tv-talk said:

On 3/30/2023 at 1:38 PM, Francie said:

That wasn't I who said what was quoted. I was quoting it as well. But I get that's a quirk of the copy quote function. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Francie

[AllyB]

9 hours ago, Sandman said:

Ucch, again with Lore? I get that Data is the most special positronic snowflake ever ever (and every time he comes back he’s more miraculous than we knew before), but Lore is that one outlier in your group of friends that you’ve known seemingly forever and no one can remember ever really liking, but nobody wants to go through the drama of breaking things off with. He just keeps turning up randomly, making every conversation about him, and annoying the living hell out of everyone.

”Say, Lore? Have you met my new friend Mr. Airlock? He’s dying to meet you! Right this way…”

You say that, but back in the 90s I had a friend who had a massive crush on Data so she always loved Lore episodes as she got to see two Datas! That said, a couple of my friends were crazy for Riker, so it was a BIG day when Thomas showed up and they too got to see their crush doubled on the screen.

[paigow]

11 hours ago, Maverick said:

 RE: Lore.  Count your blessings.  Masaka could be next. 

The Changelings will hide in plain sight on the Titan as ancient temples...

[marinw]

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

You say that, but back in the 90s I had a friend who had a massive crush on Data so she always loved Lore episodes as she got to see two Datas!

All my stright female and gay male Trekkie friends fancied either Data, Worf, or Picard. I loved Picard

Edited April 5, 2023 by marinw